Why I Hate Madonna

[Steve M.]

Okay, some folks have been insinuating that anyone who hates Madonna must have a problem with a female pop performer having as much clout as male performers, or maybe they have a problem with her large black/Latino/gay auidence. It can't be the music!

Let me break down my reasons for detesting her so much:

First, the music. It's not music, it's computer-generated noise. Mindless, repetitive synthesizers, backed with a dull percussive thud, and aired-pumped rhythms. And the ballads are annoyingly programmed dross. Madge can't be blamed for writing all of it (though what she did write is bad enough), but she can be blamed for sanctioning it).

Her voice. Why does Madge's voice - ranging from vocal lines sounding like Minnie Mouse on helium to throaty, guttural moans - make me want to jump out of my skin? Imagine would I'd want to do if I heard her voice unprocessed and elcrtrionically unaltered! Yikes!

Her pop-cultural influence. How did Madge become a bigger sex symbol than Catherine Deneuve? I belong to a Catherine Deneuve Yahoo! group, and none of us can figure out the answer. More importantly, how did she become as big a figure as Elvis, despite the fact that Elvis had talent that didn't have to be electronically manipulated? And how did she acheive the same mystique as Jimi Hendrix or James Dean - the kind of mystique Hendrix and Dean could only achieve by dying??

Her musical influence. In 1983, popular music was admittedly in a sorry state, but when Madge finally retires, she'll have left it in an either sorrier state. In fact, she's already destroyed popular music witouht hitting the showers! First, she brought back disco. Not Donna Summer/Bee Gees disco, but the hardcore "Ring My Bell"-style disco I always hated and thought was gone for good when the seventies ended. Then she popularized rap by incorporating hip-hop rhythms in her reocrds, then going whole hog by incorporating rapping on her singles! Also, her influence marginalized acoustic music and made folk-rock and similar genres unhip. Then she sabotaged grunge by signing those saboteurs Caryonbox - oops, I mean Candlebox - to her label. Finally, her example led to Britney Spears, which led to Jessica Simpson, which led to Ashlee Simpson!

Her videos. Videos used to be seen as commercials, and rightly so. Now Madge has turned them into artistic statements. Indeed, the video is more important than the music, and the more shocking the better. The music serves the video like people serve trheir computers - the master has become the servant. Her songs sound so asinine she sounds like she couldn't wait to record them and get them over with so she could make the video.

Her concerts. They're not concerts, they're Nuremburg cult rallies. Even worse, their visual style has influencd the staging of other garganutuan, overblown concerts. Sure, Jethro Tull and Pink Floyd used spectacle in the seventies, but they never let overwhelm the music like Madge does. Graham Nash of Crosby, Stills, and Nash said he and his bandamtes always preferred a stripped-down stage show because they wanted to maintain an emotional connection with the audience. Madge doesdn't have to worry about that; she has no emotion. Film critic David Denby once said that bishops have more warmth.

Her manipulation of political correctness. Madge has somehow convinced people that anyone who hates her must hate her out of racism (she has fans of color) homphobia (she has gay fans) or misognyny (her detractors don't like strong women). Let's get something straight. I have nothing against a female performer having as much clout as a male counterpart. I just have something against this female performer having it. Aretha Frnakllin, Carole King, Joni Mitchell, Grace Slick, Bonnie Raitt, Joan Jett, Chrissie Hynde, Patti Smith, Suzanne Vega, Tracy Chapman - any one of these women deserve Madge's station in life more than Madge does.

Her egotism. Madge, like Streisand before her demands to be loved, and like Babs, it just kills her that she can't everyone to love her. She's so self-centered, she wrote what was supposed to be a eulogy for Gianni Versace in Time and somehow referred to herself 35 times! Bill Maher once noted that she sees everything from a self-cetnered persepctive, noting as an example that sheonce called AIDS the worst thing to happen in the twentieth century apart from Hilter. But more people died of cancer and at the hands of Joseph Stalin than AIDS - but, as Bill Maher noted, none of these people didn't have to replace so many gay dancers in the eighties!

Her indecency. I'm not talking about her public spectacles, or even the time she ran over a photographer's foot with her Mercedes. I'm talking about the masochistic way she's bringing up her kids, epscially her pooor daughter!

Her hijacking of the Catholic lexicon. Can't the Pope do something about this?

Her fans. They get so offended when anyone so much as critcizes their idol. I've seen Rush Limbuagh fans who more more tolerant of Limbuagh's detractors. Plus, Madgemaniacs think they're so much cooler than fans of acts that don't sell a lot of records, especially those whose records don't get higher than #177 on the Billboard charts. But then Madge fans deserve to be appreciated for taking abuse from their own idol, like the two teenage girls who asked her for her autogrpah and got the following repsonse (paraphrased) - "If I gave you my autograph, I'd have to giver it to everyone else. . . . Who are you? You're nothing." At least she didn't write them a note saying "F--- YOU!"

So you see, there are numerous reasons, and I obviously have to go in full detail to make the case against her once and for all. If I've made some people stop and think, it's worth it. If you must make a snide, nasty reply to my case, don't bother - I don't want to hear it! I'm not even subscribing to my own thread! So - THERE!

[vashti1999]

Originally Posted by Steve M.

So you see, there are numerous reasons, and I obviously have to go in full detail to make the case against her once and for all. If I've made some people stop and think, it's worth it. If you must make a snide, nasty reply to my case, don't bother - I don't want to hear it! I'm not even subscribing to my own thread! So - THERE!

The only problem is that you feel it necessary to make nasty, snide replys in any thread that mentions Madonna. Seriously, all the regulars on this board get the point, you don't like Madonna. It doesn't mean that you have to (to use a word you used) hijack the threads where her fans are discussing her. You're free to dislike her and free to express it, but if you're going to do that every single time, don't be surprised when people get on your case about it. How about just showing some respect for what other people like instead of "you have Madonna in your avatar, I can't take you seriously" remarks? Comments like that are a sign of disrespect of others taste. I don't think that's right, and I don't think others have done that to you.

[AllIWantIsYourClutch]

She used to be good. Once she did that Austin Powers song or whatever, I think she went downhill.

[Dean Winchester]

well, at least you wrote a thought-out response, so I'll respectfully reply to some of your opinions

Originally Posted by Steve M.

First, the music. It's not music, it's computer-generated noise. Mindless, repetitive synthesizers, backed with a dull percussive thud, and aired-pumped rhythms. And the ballads are annoyingly programmed dross. Madge can't be blamed for writing all of it (though what she did write is bad enough), but she can be blamed for sanctioning it).

Not all of her music sounds the same. She had several tracks on American Life that didn't have synths at all. You've established in the past that you are not a fan of dance-pop music, so you really are not expected to be part of the fanbase. You're more into folk and singer-songwriter music, I can respect that but you need to respect there's an audience for the type of music Madonna makes too.

Originally Posted by Steve M.

Her voice. Why does Madge's voice - ranging from vocal lines sounding like Minnie Mouse on helium to throaty, guttural moans - make me want to jump out of my skin? Imagine would I'd want to do if I heard her voice unprocessed and elcrtrionically unaltered! Yikes!

"Minnie Mouse on Helium" was used against her in 1985 and actually her vocals on Like A Virgin and Material Girl were sped up to compete with Cyndi Lauper (who was at the time Madonna's biggest rival). Is she a good singer? absolutely not, and she even said "I'm not the best singer". But I do think she improved, she sang her ass off in Evita and a lot of skeptics actually thought she did a good vocal performance on that soundtrack.

Originally Posted by Steve M.

Her pop-cultural influence. How did Madge become a bigger sex symbol than Catherine Deneuve? I belong to a Catherine Deneuve Yahoo! group, and none of us can figure out the answer. More importantly, how did she become as big a figure as Elvis, despite the fact that Elvis had talent that didn't have to be electronically manipulated? And how did she acheive the same mystique as Jimi Hendrix or James Dean - the kind of mystique Hendrix and Dean could only achieve by dying??

Madonna became a pop culture icon because she's so larger than life. Her ability to complete alter her image and sound year after year has made her untouchable. In many ways when you see her today, it is hard to believe that this is the same woman who sang Holiday and Lucky Star two decades ago. Her accomplishments over the years has made her larger than life.

Originally Posted by Steve M.

Her musical influence. In 1983, popular music was admittedly in a sorry state, but when Madge finally retires, she'll have left it in an either sorrier state. In fact, she's already destroyed popular music witouht hitting the showers! First, she brought back disco. Not Donna Summer/Bee Gees disco, but the hardcore "Ring My Bell"-style disco I always hated and thought was gone for good when the seventies ended. Then she popularized rap by incorporating hip-hop rhythms in her reocrds, then going whole hog by incorporating rapping on her singles! Also, her influence marginalized acoustic music and made folk-rock and similar genres unhip. Then she sabotaged grunge by signing those saboteurs Caryonbox - oops, I mean Candlebox - to her label. Finally, her example led to Britney Spears, which led to Jessica Simpson, which led to Ashlee Simpson!

actually, Madonna is innocent of the hip hop thing. She did a track with Missy Elliott two or three years ago, but for the most part, she has no present-day "credibility" in the Urban market the way someone like Mariah has. Madonna's "raps" in Vogue and American Life were more tongue-in-cheek and weren't really done in a "yea, I'm going to win over the hip hop market with this" way

Originally Posted by Steve M.

Her videos. Videos used to be seen as commercials, and rightly so. Now Madge has turned them into artistic statements. Indeed, the video is more important than the music, and the more shocking the better. The music serves the video like people serve trheir computers - the master has become the servant. Her songs sound so asinine she sounds like she couldn't wait to record them and get them over with so she could make the video.

I guess I agree there, but I see things the other way. Madonna, like Michael Jackson before her, saw the importance of music videos. She used the medium of music videos to further herself and become an icon. I suppose we give her credit for the same thing, but disagree about the impact it's done.

Originally Posted by Steve M.

Her concerts. They're not concerts, they're Nuremburg cult rallies. Even worse, their visual style has influencd the staging of other garganutuan, overblown concerts. Sure, Jethro Tull and Pink Floyd used spectacle in the seventies, but they never let overwhelm the music like Madge does. Graham Nash of Crosby, Stills, and Nash said he and his bandamtes always preferred a stripped-down stage show because they wanted to maintain an emotional connection with the audience. Madge doesdn't have to worry about that; she has no emotion. Film critic David Denby once said that bishops have more warmth.

I guess I sorta agree on this. In terms of being a live artist, she really doesn't compare to someone like Tina Turner. She does the same show every night and won't bother trying to connect with the fans.

Originally Posted by Steve M.

Her manipulation of political correctness. Madge has somehow convinced people that anyone who hates her must hate her out of racism (she has fans of color) homphobia (she has gay fans) or misognyny (her detractors don't like strong women). Let's get something straight. I have nothing against a female performer having as much clout as a male counterpart. I just have something against this female performer having it. Aretha Frnakllin, Carole King, Joni Mitchell, Grace Slick, Bonnie Raitt, Joan Jett, Chrissie Hynde, Patti Smith, Suzanne Vega, Tracy Chapman - any one of these women deserve Madge's station in life more than Madge does.

well, do you like ANY "divas" (save Aretha)? I don't see a Cher or Diana Ross or Mariah Carey or the sort in your fave females lists. If you don't like any divas (with the exception of Aretha) then you need to realize that Madonna was likely not meant for you. And while there are some geat ladies on that list, like Chrissie and Bonnie, not one of them (except Aretha) has become such a larger-than-life superstar that they are put alongside the same level as a Jagger or Elvis or Beatles the way Madonna has been able to.

Originally Posted by Steve M.

Her egotism. Madge, like Streisand before her demands to be loved, and like Babs, it just kills her that she can't everyone to love her. She's so self-centered, she wrote what was supposed to be a eulogy for Gianni Versace in Time and somehow referred to herself 35 times! Bill Maher once noted that she sees everything from a self-cetnered persepctive, noting as an example that sheonce called AIDS the worst thing to happen in the twentieth century apart from Hilter. But more people died of cancer and at the hands of Joseph Stalin than AIDS - but, as Bill Maher noted, none of these people didn't have to replace so many gay dancers in the eighties!

I disagree about that. AIDS was a dark period in the history of the community that many of us hopes never happens again. People like to make fun of AIDS but there has been so many lives lost to the disease.

Originally Posted by Steve M.

Her indecency. I'm not talking about her public spectacles, or even the time she ran over a photographer's foot with her Mercedes. I'm talking about the masochistic way she's bringing up her kids, epscially her pooor daughter!

well, I kinda agree on that. She is obsessed in interviews with telling everyone how she is "right" as a parent and how everyone else isn't as good as her. I don't see where she gets off thinking that. She doesn't want her kids watching television but yet she displayed herself to us as kids.

Originally Posted by Steve M.

Her fans. They get so offended when anyone so much as critcizes their idol. I've seen Rush Limbuagh fans who more more tolerant of Limbuagh's detractors. Plus, Madgemaniacs think they're so much cooler than fans of acts that don't sell a lot of records, especially those whose records don't get higher than #177 on the Billboard charts. But then Madge fans deserve to be appreciated for taking abuse from their own idol, like the two teenage girls who asked her for her autogrpah and got the following repsonse (paraphrased) - "If I gave you my autograph, I'd have to giver it to everyone else. . . . Who are you? You're nothing." At least she didn't write them a note saying "F--- YOU!"

well, part of the reason I am so defensive about Madonna is because I have grown up with her. I have no doubt in my mind that she is the biggest musical icon I will ever get to see considering The Beatles had broken up and Elvis had died by the time I was born. I, for one, like the style of music she makes, and she keeps showing album after album that she's still got it. I have no doubt in my mind that like McCartney and Streisand, she'll still be doing great when she's in her 60's, the way she is still holding on strong in her late 40's. Madonna has played a huge influence on her generation, like Gwen Stefani recently pointed out in an interview, "show me one person my age who wasn't influenced by Madonna". She is a powerful iconic person and is someone who demands your attention when she does something.

P.S., I am surprised you didn't point out her acting, which I think everyone universally agrees she sucks at

[Dean Winchester]

Originally Posted by vashti1999

The only problem is that you feel it necessary to make nasty, snide replys in any thread that mentions Madonna. Seriously, all the regulars on this board get the point, you don't like Madonna. It doesn't mean that you have to (to use a word you used) hijack the threads where her fans are discussing her. You're free to dislike her and free to express it, but if you're going to do that every single time, don't be surprised when people get on your case about it. How about just showing some respect for what other people like instead of "you have Madonna in your avatar, I can't take you seriously" remarks? Comments like that are a sign of disrespect of others taste. I don't think that's right, and I don't think others have done that to you.

that's my same feeling towards Steve. It really doesn't bother me that he's not a fan of Madonna's, but it does get sickening that every single time the word "Madonna" is tossed around in here, we have to make sure to hear about the pariah she is. I usually just avoid threads if I dislike the artist in question.

[Nighthawk76]

Pass me the vomit bag already. These anti-Madonna threads are SO old.


It comes down to this. Listen to what you like and don't listen to what you don't like but respect that other people may like the artists you do not.

[snl 70s show fan]

they are getting very old i mean i dont like bette midler but i dont have to keep telling people that fact every time somebody here talks about her . and as far as overblown stageshows the key word here is show she gives the fans what they want to see and thats what entertaining is all about and the compairson to catherine deneuve ? i have no idea what to even make of that .the compairson would be a little like me going on a katharene hepburn message board and saying that because i like say lisa robin kelly of that 70s show .that lisa should be bigger than hepburn. well im sure you all get the point im making but one more thing before i go as an autograph collector i can tell you that miss deneuve dosent really treat her fans any nicer than madonna does . well ive done enough venting i hope nobody here hates me after reading this semi rant

[dawsongirl]

I highly doubt that they had electronic voice manipulation back in Elvis' time. Bad argument.

Anyway, I don't like too many of Madonna's songs (especially her early 80s stuff), but if other people do, so be it.

[seventies_sitcoms]

Originally Posted by Steve M.

Okay, some folks have been insinuating that anyone who hates Madonna must have a problem with a female pop performer having as much clout as male performers, or maybe they have a problem with her large black/Latino/gay auidence. It can't be the music!

Let me break down my reasons for detesting her so much:

First, the music. It's not music, it's computer-generated noise. Mindless, repetitive synthesizers, backed with a dull percussive thud, and aired-pumped rhythms. And the ballads are annoyingly programmed dross. Madge can't be blamed for writing all of it (though what she did write is bad enough), but she can be blamed for sanctioning it).

Her voice. Why does Madge's voice - ranging from vocal lines sounding like Minnie Mouse on helium to throaty, guttural moans - make me want to jump out of my skin? Imagine would I'd want to do if I heard her voice unprocessed and elcrtrionically unaltered! Yikes!

Her pop-cultural influence. How did Madge become a bigger sex symbol than Catherine Deneuve? I belong to a Catherine Deneuve Yahoo! group, and none of us can figure out the answer. More importantly, how did she become as big a figure as Elvis, despite the fact that Elvis had talent that didn't have to be electronically manipulated? And how did she acheive the same mystique as Jimi Hendrix or James Dean - the kind of mystique Hendrix and Dean could only achieve by dying??

Her musical influence. In 1983, popular music was admittedly in a sorry state, but when Madge finally retires, she'll have left it in an either sorrier state. In fact, she's already destroyed popular music witouht hitting the showers! First, she brought back disco. Not Donna Summer/Bee Gees disco, but the hardcore "Ring My Bell"-style disco I always hated and thought was gone for good when the seventies ended. Then she popularized rap by incorporating hip-hop rhythms in her reocrds, then going whole hog by incorporating rapping on her singles! Also, her influence marginalized acoustic music and made folk-rock and similar genres unhip. Then she sabotaged grunge by signing those saboteurs Caryonbox - oops, I mean Candlebox - to her label. Finally, her example led to Britney Spears, which led to Jessica Simpson, which led to Ashlee Simpson!

Her videos. Videos used to be seen as commercials, and rightly so. Now Madge has turned them into artistic statements. Indeed, the video is more important than the music, and the more shocking the better. The music serves the video like people serve trheir computers - the master has become the servant. Her songs sound so asinine she sounds like she couldn't wait to record them and get them over with so she could make the video.

Her concerts. They're not concerts, they're Nuremburg cult rallies. Even worse, their visual style has influencd the staging of other garganutuan, overblown concerts. Sure, Jethro Tull and Pink Floyd used spectacle in the seventies, but they never let overwhelm the music like Madge does. Graham Nash of Crosby, Stills, and Nash said he and his bandamtes always preferred a stripped-down stage show because they wanted to maintain an emotional connection with the audience. Madge doesdn't have to worry about that; she has no emotion. Film critic David Denby once said that bishops have more warmth.

Her manipulation of political correctness. Madge has somehow convinced people that anyone who hates her must hate her out of racism (she has fans of color) homphobia (she has gay fans) or misognyny (her detractors don't like strong women). Let's get something straight. I have nothing against a female performer having as much clout as a male counterpart. I just have something against this female performer having it. Aretha Frnakllin, Carole King, Joni Mitchell, Grace Slick, Bonnie Raitt, Joan Jett, Chrissie Hynde, Patti Smith, Suzanne Vega, Tracy Chapman - any one of these women deserve Madge's station in life more than Madge does.

Her egotism. Madge, like Streisand before her demands to be loved, and like Babs, it just kills her that she can't everyone to love her. She's so self-centered, she wrote what was supposed to be a eulogy for Gianni Versace in Time and somehow referred to herself 35 times! Bill Maher once noted that she sees everything from a self-cetnered persepctive, noting as an example that sheonce called AIDS the worst thing to happen in the twentieth century apart from Hilter. But more people died of cancer and at the hands of Joseph Stalin than AIDS - but, as Bill Maher noted, none of these people didn't have to replace so many gay dancers in the eighties!

Her indecency. I'm not talking about her public spectacles, or even the time she ran over a photographer's foot with her Mercedes. I'm talking about the masochistic way she's bringing up her kids, epscially her pooor daughter!

Her hijacking of the Catholic lexicon. Can't the Pope do something about this?

Her fans. They get so offended when anyone so much as critcizes their idol. I've seen Rush Limbuagh fans who more more tolerant of Limbuagh's detractors. Plus, Madgemaniacs think they're so much cooler than fans of acts that don't sell a lot of records, especially those whose records don't get higher than #177 on the Billboard charts. But then Madge fans deserve to be appreciated for taking abuse from their own idol, like the two teenage girls who asked her for her autogrpah and got the following repsonse (paraphrased) - "If I gave you my autograph, I'd have to giver it to everyone else. . . . Who are you? You're nothing." At least she didn't write them a note saying "F--- YOU!"

So you see, there are numerous reasons, and I obviously have to go in full detail to make the case against her once and for all. If I've made some people stop and think, it's worth it. If you must make a snide, nasty reply to my case, don't bother - I don't want to hear it! I'm not even subscribing to my own thread! So - THERE!

Grace, Joan, Chrissie, Patti ...and Holly Beth Vincent.

[Chad Michael Murray]

This is basically the same thing I've always gone through for being a Britney Spears fan.

People diss her, but bottom-line: people like what they like and that's that.

If he's a Madonna fan, that doesn't make him a bad person or any less "worthy" or intelligent than you.

It would be such a wonderful world if we really could all just value eachother's thoughts and opinions like the strange, unique, special things that they are.

[Steve M.]

Originally Posted by HUNG UP!

well, at least you wrote a thought-out response, so I'll respectfully reply to some of your opinions. . . .

And now that you have, and since you've been so nice about it, I'll taek back what I said about not repsonding to my own thread and I'll also apologize for all the times I butted in to pro-Madge threads - I guess I just had to blow off steam, but I'm glad I finally found the time to write a long, detailed explanation of my arguments against her, just so everyone knew where I stand. Bear in mind that I hadn't added my vopice to pro-Madge threads for some time, but when I read about her tying Elvis's milestone, well, I guess I just blew a gasket. . . .sorry.

Also, I'd like to add that I think there were a lot of great eighties acts, except that they were all commercially unsuccessful, save a hit single or two. Marshall Crenshaw, Los Lobos, the Alarm, XTC. . . . Plus there were others that were supposed to be great - Rank and File, the Blasters, Jason and the Scorchers - that I never even heard. So I still look back on that decade with bitterness, and I'm obviously going to aim my guns at the big acts - so Michael Jackson fans have been warned!

Why didn't I make fun of Madge's movies? Because even her fans admit that most of them are awful, and they haven't had any adverse influence on popular culture. Movies that did have an adverse impact on the culture in the eighties tend to star Arnold Schwarzenegger and Sylvester Stallone. . . but mostly Schwarzengger.

[Steve M.]

Originally Posted by dawsongirl

I highly doubt that they had electronic voice manipulation back in Elvis' time. Bad argument.

No, no, I'm saying he didn't need electronic voice manipulation, whether the technology existed or not, and the fact that he was so big at a time when that technology didn't exist shows how much he got by on raw talent. Plenty!

To be fair, I'll also bring up T-Rex's Mark Bolan. He was a better musician than a singer; he didn't have a great voice, and what you heard was an elctronically altered variation of his voice concocted in the studio. Once Elton John recorded with him, and Elton put down a vocal that the engineer kept pure because Elton is that good a singer. But he had to put in overtime to build up Bolan's squeak of a singing voice!