Amazing how times have changed - Sitcoms Online Message Boards

achantz · 10-05-2005, 09:44 PM

One of the most interesting parts about rediscovering TDVDS after 30 years is seeing how our society has changed, particularly male-female relationships.

That is no great suprise, I suppose...but I almost fell off my chair today when I saw The Lady and the Tiger and the Lawyer.

This is the episode in which the eligible bachelor neighbour admits that he doesn't want to get close to a woman because he has a has a history of hitting women. And it isn't as if he is confessing to a terribly bad crime...he simply states a fact, and Rob and Laura, after a few seconds, seem to accept his explanation and that is that.

I am not commenting on this episode in a judgmental way, and I don't raise the topic as a criticism of the writers because I can't judge them using today's standards. I just find it amazing that a a mere 40 years ago, it was completely acceptable to make fun of domestic violence.

JudgeGarth · 10-05-2005, 11:33 PM

I feel the same way. I always thought it was rather jarring in an otherwise good episode (Anthony Eisley was excellent!) that they'd make light of domestic violence like that.

SawgrassSteve · 10-06-2005, 07:11 AM

I've noticed the same thing about that episode, Achantz. It's as if they all knew it wasn't a good thing, but not necessarily so bad a person shouldn't talk about it in public. The Petries even had a cute little fake fight at the end.
And remember Ralf Kramden? How many times has he shook his fist in Alices face and threatened to send her to the moon, or just gave her the code words, "Bang, Zoom"? The 1950's audiences howled with laughter!

Steve

hoosierelvisfan · 10-06-2005, 08:25 AM

Yes, but in all fairness in regards to the specific example of the "Honeymooners," I don't think the audience was howling with laughter at the thought of Ralph beating up Alice. They were howling with laughter because they knew that Ralph was all hot-air and that Alice didn't take Ralph's gruff. She just stood there and looked at him sternly. Did anyone then or now seriously envision "domestic abuse" between Ralph and Alice?!?!? If anything, Alice had the upperhand in that marriage and, IMHO, that's what the audience was laughing about because they knew it. That's why were laughing at Ralph's "boom, bang, straight to the moon, Alice" because they knew he was just blowing off steam and it didn't mean anything. That's just my opinion. Now in regards to the example on the Dick Van Dyke show, yes, I agree that things certainly have changed in 40 years time and many of the chages are evident in shows like that.

Signed,
Respectfully,
Dutch

Lolac · 10-06-2005, 10:08 AM

There is an episode of "I Love Lucy" where Ricky puts Lucy over her knee and spanks her. I've marveled at that one, too. "The Andy Griffith Show" has one episode where they discuss "wife beaters" as just another type of petty criminal like moonshiners.

Times have changed, thankfully.

Lolac

SawgrassSteve · 10-08-2005, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lolac

Times have changed, thankfully.

"Thankfully," is right, Lolac. No human being should have to live in fear of being harmed by another.
Speaking of changing times, I watched a movie last night on Turner Classic Movies called "The Lusty Men" (1952), in which Arthur Kennedy and Susan Hayward were a married couple, and Robert Mitchum was a business partner. Susan arrived at a party late and caught Arthur with lipstick on his face and getting cozy with another woman. Naturally, she raised a fuss, interrupting the party. But Mitchum escorted her from the room and told her, in that smoothe, cool manner of his, "Settle down. All he did was kiss a little blonde. It won't look so bad to you in the morning." HUH

?
For all the heat they get today, I can see how organizations like NOW (not that I'm endorsing them here) got started

!

Steve

octobereve · 10-09-2005, 07:46 PM

I wish I could find it, but online somewhere I read a page from a home ec. book published in the early 50s that had a list of how to treat your husband. Some of the suggestions, heck, most of them, were maddening. Stuff like don't get upset if your husband goes out to dinner without you or if he goes out every night or if he STAYS OUT ALL NIGHT; plan activities that HE likes, note it wasn't something that both of you like just what he likes; learn to play games that he likes but never, ever beat him. Ugh! And this was a school text book! Talk about training to be a doormat!

jillm816 · 10-13-2005, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by octobereve

don't get upset if your husband goes out to dinner without you or if he goes out every night or if he STAYS OUT ALL NIGHT; plan activities that HE likes, note it wasn't something that both of you like just what he likes; learn to play games that he likes but never, ever beat him. Ugh! And this was a school text book! Talk about training to be a doormat!

Somehow I can't see Laura Petrie doing these things!!

SawgrassSteve · 10-13-2005, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillm816

Somehow I can't see Laura Petrie doing these things!!

For the most part I could see how you could come to that conclusion, Jillm816.
Laura does have a bit of brass, but that's only until Rob pushes back. She didn't argue with him when he thought he was becoming too domesticated and decided to sit and read the newspaper instead of helping around the house in, "The Bad Old Days," and she never complained about the change in the way he saw things except to mumble, "That's silly." And do you remember what Laura said in "Who And Where Was Antonio Stradivarius", when Rob came home after staying out all night and he didn't know how it happened? She thought he was lying about it and said, ...if for some reason you don't want to tell me, just say so and the subject will be closed." When she beat him at the pool table in, "Hustling The Hustler," it was by pure accident (both in the script and in reality). She also denied that she thought she could beat Rob up in, "My Mother Can Beat Up My Father," even though she thought she could. She even agreed with Rob, and kissed him, when he said he wore "...the important pants in the family," in "The Man From My Uncle." The only time I can remember Laura actually defying Rob is when he told her to go to her room in, "That's My Boy," and she refused to do it.
Laura's arsenal for getting her way appears to be to either look angry, act hurt, or whine a little. Good thing too, because those work better on Rob (and most men who are softhearted) than a head to head confrontation.
Given her age and the times, Laura must've read from that textbook as a student, Octobereve. But fortunately for Laura, Rob isn't the type of guy to take complete advantage of that.

Steve

jillm816 · 10-19-2005, 04:28 PM

You have a point there, Steve. those are good examples. I guess I just never really thought of Laura as being subservient or submissive. Maybe it was the capri pants she wore. Compared to today's standards, I admit she did wait on Rob a lot. I certainly don't get up, get dressed up and fix my husband scrambled eggs every morning before he goes to work! But I always saw it as something she wanted to do for him, rather than something she let happen to her.
I definitely wouldn't call her a doormat; she definitely has a mind of her own, don't you think? But she wasn't the type of person who wanted to go out and be independent and be a working woman to assert her independence. She tried to go back to dancing, but just to see if she could. She wanted to work at Rob's office, but just to help him out while Sally was gone.
It seems that Rob and Laura had a pretty good relationship based on mutual love and respect. Laura loves Rob and that's why she cooks for him and doesn't want to hurt his feelings by telling him she can beat him up. And in return, Rob gives her a lot of love in return.
..with a little occasional jealously on both sides thrown in for laughs.

SawgrassSteve · 10-20-2005, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jillm816

I guess I just never really thought of Laura as being subservient or submissive... I definitely wouldn't call her a doormat; she definitely has a mind of her own, don't you think?

I absolutely agree that Laura has a mind of her own - but she is very much subervient too. As you said, she tried dancing again to see if she could. I guess we all wonder if we still 'have it', as life progresses. But remember, in "My Part-Time Wife," when Rob asked if she wanted to start working outside their home, Laura said, "Only if you decide to stop working." I think the atmosphere in their home is one of mutual love and understanding. You're right that Laura waits on Rob because she wants to, not because she has to. Rob waits on her sometimes too. He never seems to be demanding about any of his wants or needs.
So, maybe that's what makes this work for us? Maybe we don't think of Laura as the dutiful, submissive wife because we don't see Rob as the demanding, overbearing husband

.
BTW, jillm816, it's never to late to start getting up a little earlier to get hubby's eggs scrambled

!
No, I'm kidding. Every houshold runs differently, and every family has different requirements. I actually cook much more for my wife than she does for me. But she's a restaurant owner, so the last thing she wants to see is the kitchen when she's at home.
Besides, your husband might prefer his eggs poached

!

Steve

jillm816 · 10-21-2005, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SawgrassSteve

Maybe we don't think of Laura as the dutiful, submissive wife because we don't see Rob as the demanding, overbearing husband

Very true!

PJudith · 12-25-2011, 04:37 PM

Interesting replies. I'd have to agree that Laura was doing what she wanted. Remember when she tried dancing again? She reminded Rob that before he proposed she had said to him "Take me away from this. I don't want to be a dancer. I want to be your wife."

Of course Rob was STILL able to be a comedy writer AND a husband. But I think in time, I think Laura would have resumed her career or started a new one. In the DVD movie that they did a few years back, didn't Laura run a dance studio for children?

SawgrassSteve- I agree about the "arsenal" Laura used. But I'd add one more thing. There was an episode when Rob knew Laura was angry. But he said to Buddy and Sally that she wouldn't say a word. Then he added "for weeks". There was at least another episode when they argued and Laura went in the bedroom. Rob tried to follow and he said the door was jammed. Laura said "It's locked!" I have a feeling that Rob would lose his bedroom privileges if he got Laura really angry. And I don't mean for sleeping. lol So I doubt that he would think many issues were worth fighting about.

PGood97041 · 12-29-2011, 02:03 AM

I mentioned in another thread about which TDVDS eps I didn't like (and there were only about three) how stunned I was at "The Lady and the Tiger and the Lawyer".
And like you, Achantz, I couldn't completely hammer the writers, because times were different then. Thankfully we've reached the point at which domestic violence isn't accepted, nor is it joked about like that on a sitcom.
But that dialogue certainly was jarring upon re-watching.

And regarding Rob and Laura, I didn't consider Laura "subservient" at all.
In addition to being gorgeous, she was a smart cookie, and if a situation in the Petrie household ever became too unfair in her eyes, she did and/or would stand up to Rob. But their work/home setup worked so well, and their relationship was so loving, for a lot of reasons, nothing that bothered either of them was ever left unaddressed too long.
I honestly always felt they were intellectually equals, even though Rob was out working and Laura running the household, however anybody then or now weighs those jobs.
Also, truth be told, it was evident that Laura did have the highest card, the withholding of bedroom privileges, but I agree...Rob was intelligent enough to never let things get that far out of line!

10-05-2005, 09:44 PM	#1
achantz Member Occasional Poster Join Date: Jul 13, 2005 Posts: 11	Amazing how times have changed One of the most interesting parts about rediscovering TDVDS after 30 years is seeing how our society has changed, particularly male-female relationships. That is no great suprise, I suppose...but I almost fell off my chair today when I saw The Lady and the Tiger and the Lawyer. This is the episode in which the eligible bachelor neighbour admits that he doesn't want to get close to a woman because he has a has a history of hitting women. And it isn't as if he is confessing to a terribly bad crime...he simply states a fact, and Rob and Laura, after a few seconds, seem to accept his explanation and that is that. I am not commenting on this episode in a judgmental way, and I don't raise the topic as a criticism of the writers because I can't judge them using today's standards. I just find it amazing that a a mere 40 years ago, it was completely acceptable to make fun of domestic violence.

10-06-2005, 07:11 AM	#3
SawgrassSteve Loyal Worshipper Senior Member Join Date: Mar 04, 2002 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 1,423	I've noticed the same thing about that episode, Achantz. It's as if they all knew it wasn't a good thing, but not necessarily so bad a person shouldn't talk about it in public. The Petries even had a cute little fake fight at the end. And remember Ralf Kramden? How many times has he shook his fist in Alices face and threatened to send her to the moon, or just gave her the code words, "Bang, Zoom"? The 1950's audiences howled with laughter! Steve
	__________________ The Cult Of Laura

10-06-2005, 08:25 AM	#4
hoosierelvisfan Member Frequent Poster Join Date: Sep 16, 2003 Location: I do not like TV Land any longer!!!!! Posts: 467	Yes, but in all fairness in regards to the specific example of the "Honeymooners," I don't think the audience was howling with laughter at the thought of Ralph beating up Alice. They were howling with laughter because they knew that Ralph was all hot-air and that Alice didn't take Ralph's gruff. She just stood there and looked at him sternly. Did anyone then or now seriously envision "domestic abuse" between Ralph and Alice?!?!? If anything, Alice had the upperhand in that marriage and, IMHO, that's what the audience was laughing about because they knew it. That's why were laughing at Ralph's "boom, bang, straight to the moon, Alice" because they knew he was just blowing off steam and it didn't mean anything. That's just my opinion. Now in regards to the example on the Dick Van Dyke show, yes, I agree that things certainly have changed in 40 years time and many of the chages are evident in shows like that. Signed, Respectfully, Dutch
	__________________ 24; Andy Griffith Show; A-Team; Avengers; Baretta; Battlestar Galactica (Original); Beverly Hillbillies; Bewitched; Bob Newhart; Charlie's Angels; Columbo; Dallas; Dark Shadows; Dukes of Hazzard; Green Acres; Kojack; Kung Fu; Law and Order; Mary Tyler Moore Show; MAS*H; Monty Python; New Avengers; Planet of the Apes; Prisoner; Reno 911; Sanford and Son; Simpsons; Sopranos; Starsky and Hutch; SWAT; Taxi; Three's Company; UFO; Waltons; What's Happening; Wild Wild West; Wonder Woman; Xena

10-05-2005, 11:33 PM	#2
JudgeGarth Member Frequent Poster Join Date: Apr 07, 2004 Location: Wheaton, IL Posts: 443	I feel the same way. I always thought it was rather jarring in an otherwise good episode (Anthony Eisley was excellent!) that they'd make light of domestic violence like that.

10-06-2005, 10:08 AM	#5
Lolac Dolce far niente, Carissima! Senior Member Join Date: Jan 02, 2003 Location: Fairfax Station, VA Posts: 1,487	There is an episode of "I Love Lucy" where Ricky puts Lucy over her knee and spanks her. I've marveled at that one, too. "The Andy Griffith Show" has one episode where they discuss "wife beaters" as just another type of petty criminal like moonshiners. Times have changed, thankfully. Lolac

10-09-2005, 07:46 PM	#7
octobereve Member Frequent Poster Join Date: Jul 24, 2004 Posts: 232	I wish I could find it, but online somewhere I read a page from a home ec. book published in the early 50s that had a list of how to treat your husband. Some of the suggestions, heck, most of them, were maddening. Stuff like don't get upset if your husband goes out to dinner without you or if he goes out every night or if he STAYS OUT ALL NIGHT; plan activities that HE likes, note it wasn't something that both of you like just what he likes; learn to play games that he likes but never, ever beat him. Ugh! And this was a school text book! Talk about training to be a doormat!

10-19-2005, 04:28 PM	#10
jillm816 Let's dance! Occasional Poster Join Date: Sep 29, 2004 Location: Fairfax, VA Posts: 82	You have a point there, Steve. those are good examples. I guess I just never really thought of Laura as being subservient or submissive. Maybe it was the capri pants she wore. Compared to today's standards, I admit she did wait on Rob a lot. I certainly don't get up, get dressed up and fix my husband scrambled eggs every morning before he goes to work! But I always saw it as something she wanted to do for him, rather than something she let happen to her. I definitely wouldn't call her a doormat; she definitely has a mind of her own, don't you think? But she wasn't the type of person who wanted to go out and be independent and be a working woman to assert her independence. She tried to go back to dancing, but just to see if she could. She wanted to work at Rob's office, but just to help him out while Sally was gone. It seems that Rob and Laura had a pretty good relationship based on mutual love and respect. Laura loves Rob and that's why she cooks for him and doesn't want to hurt his feelings by telling him she can beat him up. And in return, Rob gives her a lot of love in return. ..with a little occasional jealously on both sides thrown in for laughs.

12-25-2011, 04:37 PM	#13
PJudith Member Occasional Poster Join Date: Dec 13, 2007 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 29	Interesting replies. I'd have to agree that Laura was doing what she wanted. Remember when she tried dancing again? She reminded Rob that before he proposed she had said to him "Take me away from this. I don't want to be a dancer. I want to be your wife." Of course Rob was STILL able to be a comedy writer AND a husband. But I think in time, I think Laura would have resumed her career or started a new one. In the DVD movie that they did a few years back, didn't Laura run a dance studio for children? SawgrassSteve- I agree about the "arsenal" Laura used. But I'd add one more thing. There was an episode when Rob knew Laura was angry. But he said to Buddy and Sally that she wouldn't say a word. Then he added "for weeks". There was at least another episode when they argued and Laura went in the bedroom. Rob tried to follow and he said the door was jammed. Laura said "It's locked!" I have a feeling that Rob would lose his bedroom privileges if he got Laura really angry. And I don't mean for sleeping. lol So I doubt that he would think many issues were worth fighting about.

12-29-2011, 02:03 AM	#14
PGood97041 Member Forum Regular Join Date: Jan 03, 2008 Location: Boston Posts: 747	I mentioned in another thread about which TDVDS eps I didn't like (and there were only about three) how stunned I was at "The Lady and the Tiger and the Lawyer". And like you, Achantz, I couldn't completely hammer the writers, because times were different then. Thankfully we've reached the point at which domestic violence isn't accepted, nor is it joked about like that on a sitcom. But that dialogue certainly was jarring upon re-watching. And regarding Rob and Laura, I didn't consider Laura "subservient" at all. In addition to being gorgeous, she was a smart cookie, and if a situation in the Petrie household ever became too unfair in her eyes, she did and/or would stand up to Rob. But their work/home setup worked so well, and their relationship was so loving, for a lot of reasons, nothing that bothered either of them was ever left unaddressed too long. I honestly always felt they were intellectually equals, even though Rob was out working and Laura running the household, however anybody then or now weighs those jobs. Also, truth be told, it was evident that Laura did have the highest card, the withholding of bedroom privileges, but I agree...Rob was intelligent enough to never let things get that far out of line!