Trading, selling, bartering, etc.

[Agent 13]

Originally Posted by lazygrae

...Agent 13 is the only person I know of who flat-out states she will NOT sell, period.

I'm probably one of the few traders with a large collection who visit here on a daily basis and refuse to sell. That's true, but there are several members here who also have large collections, don't sell, but visit here only on occasion.

There are 173 members at http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group...visiontrading/ which is an exclusive group where selling is strictly prohibited. If you're found to sell, you're ousted from the group.

The reason I don't sell is not because I'm pious but for self-preservation (long story). Before TJ established the no selling rule, I even stood up for quinncy/siblis (a known profiteer) at SO. I do not condemn sellers at all even though selling is in the gray area of the law.

I have a generous type personality, and turning down traders is very difficult for me. Having to turn people away is increasing as the size of my collection grows. If it were at all possible to sell absolutely legally, I would in a heart beat.

Daily I refer traders to trading friends I know that sell series that I have personally put together. But for myself, I have to stay above the law. I am not financially well off, and could certainly use the extra money, but I cannot afford to do so.

I cannot afford to let my guard down. Not because of my trading reputation on-line but because of my reputation off-line.

[lazygrae]

there are several members here who also have large collections, don't sell, but visit here only on occasion.

Undoubtedly. Your old signature (Trade only, never, EVER, sell) just sticks in my mind :-)

I have to stay above the law.

The law does not differentiate between selling and trading so far as copyright infringement is concerned. We all know the line, it's at the end of every show we all watch: Unauthorized duplication and distribution is prohibited by law. That's pretty unambiguous: if you are not the copyright holder, or have permission from the copyright holder, then you don't have the legal right to copy and distribute. Trade, sell, barter - that's irrelevant.

I realize there are a lot of people who believe that trading is completely legal and that selling is not. I have yet to see any distinction made between the two made in any copyright notice. I've asked the people who are of that opinion to show me a copyright notice that said, or even hinted, that the no-copying and distributing "rule" could be circumvented legally so long as no monetary gain is realized. No one has ever been able to do this. I would love to see one now if anyone can provide it.

There's no distinction between Canada and the US, and most other places either. Copyright protection and infringement enforcement spans many countries via Interpol.

In short, we're all law-breakers. Not that anybody, including the authorities, cares, just so that no one is fooling themselves about what exactly they are doing even if they never actually sell.

[Agent 13]

I agree with you, Lazygrae, on all points. Trading is in the gray area of the law, but selling would be a darker shade of gray.

[BeefyBoyGod]

No problem with people selling, EXCEPT at ridiculous prices like $50 a 2-hour tape/disc. Now THAT is stepping over the line. A person shouldn't have to take out a Mortgage to get their favorite series, for Jiminy Cricket's sake.

[scottdvd]

Originally Posted by lazygrae

In short, we're all law-breakers. Not that anybody, including the authorities, cares, just so that no one is fooling themselves about what exactly they are doing even if they never actually sell.

Lazygrae could not have said it any better. Why it is OK to trade here but not make any selling posts is a mystery to me? Trading OR selling falls under the same laws and trading is no more legal than selling, I don't know why people think it is different.

I trade and sell but do not make any selling posts here, I do respect the rules of the board. Its just hard for me to understand why people think it is legal to trade. I really doubt the authorities are going to bust anyone on this board for selling or trading. Now if you had a small warehouse with 25 duplicators making 1000's of copies a day that might be a little different.

Here is another common misunderstanding, it is ok to trade TV shows that are not released but I don't want to trade retail available copies, there is NO difference! I have had traders tell me that before. I ask them why not, they are trading all episodes of the dukes of hazzard and the first few seasons are already released retail, they tell me because their copies are not from retail

I enjoy the hobby of collecting old TV shows, retail or unreleased. I buy and trade. I don't dislike anyone who trades or sells but lets be clear, traders and sellers are breaking the same law.

[lordsmurf]

I don't think "sellers" are really the issue. That's too broad of a word. Anybody that ever sells anything could be called a "seller".

"Profiteers".... now THAT'S your problem...

Profiteers tend to only do this hobby for the money. The source of almost all bad quality sets is people that slopped them together for a few quick bucks, not something they carefully/thoughtfully made for themselves. They view "new shows" as bargain chips or money makers, not as a show they would like to watch. You block the mainstream sellers, you tend to wipe out the proliferation of their lower-quality junk. People that "only trade" to get, and then "only sell" to give, are the profiteers. As well as those that sell retail copies, have big public online stores with shopping carts, or have dozens of auctions at any time. These people rarely, if ever, watch the shows. They don't know if it's really good quality, or even if the discs work. They spend nothing to make it happen, they pass along junk, and they expect huge income out of it. They are a poison... a disease... a cancer... to the tv show collecting hobby.

No selling rules are usually about preventing these kind of people from destroying a trade site with sale ads all the time. Simple as that.

[nannyfan]

Can we name the profiteers now and weed them out?? Just kidding

[DAJIZZARIZZA]

BOOTLEGS ARE BOOTLEGS !!! AND ... RULES ARE RULES !!!

ENJOY THE FORUM ,... BUT FOLLOW THE OWNERS RULES ,.. SIMPLE .

DON'T LIKE IT ,... OPEN YOUR OWN FORUM ,.. ALLOW ALL THE PROFITEERS YOU WANT IN IT .

THIS IS MY TAKE . TRADE, SELL, OR SELL LIKE IT IS THE ONLY WAY TO LIVE, IS NOT THE MAIN ISSUE ,... THE RULES ARE .

SO ENJOY THE HOBBY AND DON'T MAKE IT A OBJECT OF SCRUTINY. JUST FOLLOW THE RULES OR GET THE HELL OUT. OOPS, I MEAN THE HECK OUT. ...LOL

[loren]

let me break some news to everyone

if you would stop purchaseing from those people who sell at $ 10 a disc and up, they would either come down in price to an honest level, or they just fade away from lack of business

whos fault is it, the folks who fork out up to $ 65 a tape or disc

if there a show thats worth $ 65 a tape, please invite me over, i gotta see this show

just say no

to me the profiteers are of zero problems to me, i just pass when they quote the big money and move on, i dont care if i needed one show for a complete set of my favorite show, i will not play that high price game

[nannyfan]

Profiteers are also those who have set up a business and sell many sets at $5 per/dvd.

[scottdvd]

Originally Posted by DAJIZZARIZZA

BOOTLEGS ARE BOOTLEGS !!! AND ... RULES ARE RULES !!!

ENJOY THE FORUM ,... BUT FOLLOW THE OWNERS RULES ,.. SIMPLE .

DON'T LIKE IT ,... OPEN YOUR OWN FORUM ,.. ALLOW ALL THE PROFITEERS YOU WANT IN IT .

THIS IS MY TAKE . TRADE, SELL, OR SELL LIKE IT IS THE ONLY WAY TO LIVE, IS NOT THE MAIN ISSUE ,... THE RULES ARE .

I never argued the rules of the board. What I was trying to explain is that it is just as much against the law to trade as it is to sell no matter what you charge per disc/tape. Some people don't choose to see it that way and think that all sellers are bad but traders are above the law because they trade only.

I trade more than I buy or sell but I will buy something I can't trade for if its $3.00 per disc or less.

I agree with Loren. Why complain if someone is charging $50.00 a tape? Don't buy it! Do you really need it that bad? Believe me they are not selling much at that price anyway.

[tdubel]

My 2 cents is this, 5 to 10 a dvd never bothered me, seems fair for someone's time. I have also paid $35 a tape for a few things b/c I wanted them. To me I could care less whether you trade/sell, etc, JUST BE HONEST. THat is all that matters, if you say you are going to deliver just do it and there are no problems.

I do agree with the board rule of NO public selling, it just invites trouble. Of course, if anyone wanted to get technical, Scott is correct in that trading could have the same effect.

Lighten up everyone, be smart and enjoy the hobby and if you spend $5 sometime, that is your decision, god knows I have spent a ton, traded a ton and enjoyed most of it

Tom

[y2k3Joker]

Very well said Tom.

[T-Greg]

Originally Posted by loren

let me break some news to everyone

if you would stop purchaseing from those people who sell at $ 10 a disc and up, they would either come down in price to an honest level, or they just fade away from lack of business

whos fault is it, the folks who fork out up to $ 65 a tape or disc

if there a show thats worth $ 65 a tape, please invite me over, i gotta see this show

just say no

to me the profiteers are of zero problems to me, i just pass when they quote the big money and move on, i dont care if i needed one show for a complete set of my favorite show, i will not play that high price game

Loren. That's easier said than done. Let me give you a great analogy. How many times have people said they would stop watching games and buying tickets to a sporting event everytime NFL or MLB players threatened to strike over money. People are hooked. They can't do it. I always thought there should be a union of fans that could stop supporting a certain sport if the owners and players would not stop their greedy ways. In theory (not reality) it could work, but just like the oil cartels that promise each other to limit production in order to drive up price, someone will always cheat to make a buck. History has shown this to be true time and again.

[Agent 13]

Up until the no selling rule was established, the number of "for sale" posts was increasing daily. Whether someone privately buys, sells, or trades is up to the individual.

But posting "for sale" posts could very well draw attention from the MPAA, government, etc. We want to keep this site up and stay on the up-and-up as much as possible. Some may say that trading and selling are equally illegal, but without a doubt the authorities will attack on-line sellers before traders.

Dictionary definition of PROFITEER:
"a person who takes advantage of a situation in which other people are suffering to make a profit, often by selling at a high price goods which are difficult to obtain"

i.e. siblis, quinncy, etc.

We can choose to NOT buy from those who charge outlandish prices.

How about a DVD Profiteer definition? Explanations seem vague.

What's a high price? $3-5 a disc seems cheap enough when it's something rare, but how about when you look at it on a larger scale? $3 x 50 discs = $150, or $5 x 50 = $250

Labeling someone a "profiteer" is speculative, but to me, if someone consistently makes $100+/wk, it's unlikely that they're not in it for the buck.

If they sell more than trade or if they expect more than what they're giving, that seems like they're profiting to me.

i.e. When I posted that I needed the last 11 episodes of "The Real McCoys" awhile back, a trader contacted me with an offer for the last 11 episodes. In exchange for those 11 episodes, all he'd want would be my 39 DVDs (216 episodes). "I have a great deal for you!" he told me. (He offered to throw in a few other discs for good measure.) Profiteer.

Most of my favorite traders have a common thread: a desire to help each other complete sets. Traders that hoard a series in order to keep the monopoly over it sends up red flags in my mind. Life is too short to deal with profiteers unless they have something I want.