Alcatraz escape

[SP4CE INV4DERZ]

Just curious as to your opinions on whether Frank Norris and the Anglin brothers survived the Alcatraz waters and got out alive or not? After re-watching the Alcatraz on "Legends" and doing a little research (it fasinates me lol) I don't think the guys made it.

[justins5256]

They didn't make it.

Justin

[JimmyHendricks]

I don't think they made it either. The fact that there has been NO evidence in the last 43 years that they made it.

I have "Riddle of the Rock", the book by Don Denevi, the professor in the Alcatraz episode who was friends with Clarence Carnes. It's an interesting read, but it's obvious that Denevi has put Carnes on a pedestal and believes EVERYTHING that man told him. Remember what he said on UM? "These guys made it! They made it because Clarence said they did!"....um, that's not a good reason.

What convinced me that they didn't make it was when UM had the endurance swimmer, Dave Horning swim through SF bay, and he almost didn't make it--his legs were cramping up. If an actual cold water athletic swimmer could barely make it, then how can 3 ordinary men with no conditioning do it? And for Denevi's arguement that the Anglin's were expert swimmers? Well, there's a BIG difference between swimming in the "Florida swamps" when you were younger and swimming in SF bay when you've been in prison for 10 years.

I think it's an interesting story, but there is no doubt in my mind that all 3 men died in the water.

[Todd Mueller]

Here's my only question...

Norris was reported to be extremely smart. These guys had almost every angle covered on how to pull this off. I find it funny that they assumed they could swim or raft to safety.

I guess my point is that if they were that smart and that organized, perhaps they were met in the bay by a boat of some kind. They wouldn't have to be in the water long and they could have been picked up and taken almost anywhere.

The other thing (just to play devil's advocate) if they did get out I highly doubt they would let that be known. Even after this long, they would still be arrested and put back in the jug. If it were me, I would smile to myself and live a life of peace.

I guess this is the kind of mystery we will never know the end to, one way or another.

[palmyrafan]

Did you catch the news bit last week about the teenage boy who swam from Alcatraz to the mainland with no problem?

If a teenager could do it, why couldn't three grown men?

Especially when a couple of months later, one of the inmates received a postcard as a sign that they had made it.

[pcon]

I think they made it. If not, why have none of the bodies been discovered?

[Kemistry]

No doubt they made it, officials just deny the fact because they don't want to admit that anyone could beat "The Rock".

[justins5256]

Uhm, we're talking about the Pacific Ocean.

Saying they made it just because their bodies have not been found is like saying that Jimmy Hoffa is still alive because his body hasn't been found.

The evidence strongly suggests they drowned. What evidence is there supporting any other explanation?

[crystaldawn]

Did any of you guys watch AMW last night? They had a segment about the three men who escaped and it was very interesting. They talked to one retired policeman who soon after they escaped saw a body that washed up onshore and by some of the things with the body thought it was an escaped prisoner. They also though interviewed 2 people who claimed to have had conversations with two of the escapees years later. One even had a picture of an elderly man who claimed to be one of the three. They had an artist do an age progressed photo of the three and showed it to audience hoping that someone has seen them since their escape and would call in.

[robbieasbury]

I watched part of it, was interesting that John Walsh wanted them back in jail after all these years and they never seemed to hurt anybody after escaping, especially now that their old.

[Kane]

Originally Posted by robbieasbury

I watched part of it, was interesting that John Walsh wanted them back in jail after all these years and they never seemed to hurt anybody after escaping, especially now that their old.

That shouldn't be a surprise. I mean, that's part of the job of a crimefighting show like AMW and UM. And it doesn't matter if a fugitive never hurt anyone while on the run, or how long they've been on the run. The general duty is to track down the fugitives until they are found, alive or otherwise.

To simply give up and let go would only send the wrong message. Rightly or wrongly, it would imply that you're home free if you remain on the run long enough.

[CODIS]

The three escapee's (Morris and the Anglin Bros) most likely did not make it out of the water alive. My thoughts, These three were career criminals that were shipped to "The Rock" because of escape attempts from other federal prisons. The fact that after this escape, these three guys became 3 " Mr upstanding citizens" never to do any wrong again is highly unlikely. As far as the postcard goes. (you have to remember, most of the inmates knew that a break was taking place.) I think the postcard was sent by a contact on the outside regardless if they made it or not as a way to humiliate authorities. IMHO it was a way for the prisoners to have the controls, however briefly. Just me.

[palmyrafan]

I respect all of your opinions. However, I also respect mine.

For instance, suppose you had a criminal record and you were sent to the worst prison in America. Notorious for inmate abuse, long term stints in the hole and not a real good chance of ever setting foot on dry land again.

I don't know, maybe it is just my own warped thinking, but I would think very carefully about going on the straight and narrow. Besides, just because they weren't seen committing other crimes, doesn't mean that they didn't. Wonderful thing about our country is that we have the freedom of travel. And knowing that, they could have very easily disguised their looks, changed their habits and moved elsewhere.

You really don't think that the families are goint to stand up and say, "oh yeah, they made it"? Most men like that probably would have cut their losses with their families and/or friends and decided to start over.

It has been done many times. Adults dropping out of society and moving somewhere else, with a new name and new looks.

Besides, I can't get over the fact that a teenage boy was able to swim the waters - the same waters with the same hazards, including sharks and tides - and survived.

It is also possible that they had accomplices waiting out in the water with a boat. Maybe the flotation devices were a means to simply get out to the deeper water and to the boats where they were taken to safety.

And, contrary to popular belief, it was NOT well-known in the prison that they were planning an escape. There were a few people that knew, but not a great many. They told only trusted people. In a place like Alcatraz, with the opportunity to maybe get a better cell, job or early release, if it was common knowledge, do you really think someone could have kept their mouth shut about this?

Think about it.

[Goofyman]

Well, I remember that on an episode of Mythbusters, they replicated the raft used in the escape to the best of their abilities (used the same materials as the others, the same methods to create it, designed it similar to the actual based on ...I forget) and they made it entirely across on the raft. Plus with the fact that it is possible to swim it (a teenager swimming actually makes sense, since most people are at their peak physical condition during the teenage years (three prison inmates in a jail known for abuse might not have such an easy time making it in the dead of night (dunno when the teen did it), especially because they could have become off-track and swam way off-track and drowned. On Mythbusters, they made it (in the dead of night) , and the teen made it, so perhaps the theory is not so farfetched.

Honestly, I think that they might have made it. Probably at least one of them died during the escape, and they are probably all dead now.

Oh well. Justice should have been served, but the chance that they are alive is slim, let alone the chance of us finding them and going through the proper legal proceedings for the new crime they have commited of escaping. They'd just die in the process, I would assume.

[Awsi Dooger]

Originally Posted by crystaldawn

Did any of you guys watch AMW last night? They had a segment about the three men who escaped and it was very interesting. They talked to one retired policeman who soon after they escaped saw a body that washed up onshore and by some of the things with the body thought it was an escaped prisoner. They also though interviewed 2 people who claimed to have had conversations with two of the escapees years later. One even had a picture of an elderly man who claimed to be one of the three. They had an artist do an age progressed photo of the three and showed it to audience hoping that someone has seen them since their escape and would call in.

I saw that show. I thought it was extremely interesting that FBI and law enforcement were keeping tabs of the family members in Florida for years including perhaps checking their mail. So that makes me think they weren't as confident in failure and death as they always project publicly.

The body that supposedly washed ashore was something I've never heard before. I'm very skeptical of that. You know damn well if they found a body they would have connected it to the high profile escape and paraded it around in front of the media. Heck, just look what they did to the supposed weather balloon in the Roswell case and that was 15 years earlier.

Still, I'm very confident the men didn't make it. I can't explain the bodies not showing up, especially three of them. That defies probability. If one didn't turn up that could be explained but all three drifting out to sea or sinking without a trace doesn't make sense. But if I had to put odds on it, it makes much less sense that three hardened career criminals could escape to longterm freedom yet never be heard from again.

I completely discount the eyewitness testimony regarding the old men. Just this afternoon I saw a program in which a legal expert predicted that within 10 years eyewitness testimony will be all but discounted. Let's hope so. That case in Texas that came to light last weekend where an innocent guy was apparently put to death is another one that relied on the two aspects I despise: creative and pushy officers and prosecutors desperate to put a check mark beside a case, and forcing reluctant or unsure witnesses to make a definitive statement regarding a suspect. In that case the guy who recanted claims he was threatened by law enforcement to finger the guy. I'm sure that's much more common than we like to believe.

No doubt it's possible to swim to shore safely. Another Alcatraz inmate proved that a year later in 1963 when he made it to the rocks but was exhausted and caught up on jagged rocks when re-captured. My gut instinct is the raft failed and the men were wearing too much bulky clothing and gear that hindered their swimming and caused death by drowning.