Article for all you Shroud of Turin lovers - Sitcoms Online Message Boards

Blackout · 01-29-2005, 03:43 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...n_turin_shroud

Shroud of Turin Could Date to Jesus' Time

Sat Jan 29, 9:01 AM ET

By FRANCES D'EMILIO, Associated Press Writer

ROME - A chemist who worked on testing of the Shroud of Turin says new analysis of the fiber indicates the cloth that some say was the burial linen of Jesus could be up to 3,000 years old.

The analysis, by a scientist who was on the original 1978 team that was allowed to study tiny pieces of the cloth, indicates the shroud is far older than the initial findings suggesting it was probably from medieval times, and will likely be seized on by those who believe it wrapped the body of Jesus after his crucifixion.

"I cannot disprove that this cloth was the burial shroud that was used on Jesus," Raymond N. Rogers, a retired chemist from the University of California-operated Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico, said in a telephone interview Friday from his home.

"The chemistry says it was a real shroud, the blood spots on it are real blood, and the technology that was used to make that piece of cloth was exactly what Pliny the Elder reported fort his time," about 70 A.D., Rogers said, referring to the naturalist of ancient Roman times.

"It's a shroud from the right time, but you're never going to find out (through science) if it was used on a person named Jesus," said Rogers, whose findings were published recently in the scientific journal Thermochimica Acta.

Rogers wrote that in 2003, the scientist advising the cardinal of Turin, where the shroud is kept, provided him with pieces of thread taken from the radiocarbon sample before it was distributed for dating.

The American chemist said he decided to analyze the amount of vanillin, a chemical compound that is present in linen from the flax fibers used to weave it. Vanillin slowly disappears from the fiber over time at a calculated rate, he said.

Judging by those calculations, a medieval-age cloth should have had some 37 percent of its vanillin left by 1978, the year the threads were taken from the shroud, Rogers said. But there was virtually no vanillin left in the shroud, leading the chemist to calculate it could be far older than the radiocarbon testing indicated, possibly some 3,000 years old.

Asked why carbon-dating might have been off, Rogers contended that "the people who cut the sample didn't do a very good job of characterizing the samples," that is, taking samples from many areas of the cloth.

Rogers said he sent the results of his vanillin testing to the offices of the Turin cardinal and his scientific advisers but hasn't received a response.

The Vatican (news - web sites), which does not claim that the shroud is authentic, said Saturday it had not comment on the new testing. Officials at the Turin archdiocese could not be reached for comment.

The chemist said he doubted the shroud could be reliably tested any more, contending that a top-secret restoration in 2002 likely would influence chemical results.

In the restoration, centuries' old patches were removed and a backing sewn on centuries ago was replaced. At the time, Shroud experts around the world were angered by the project, which they said should have had more outside collaboration.

The Shroud is a strip of linen more than four meters (about 14 feet) long and one-meter (3 1/2-feet) wide that is marked by an image of Jesus. Believers say the image was left by Jesus' body after being taken down from the cross.

Disputes have flourished over the 1988 declaration by the scientific team that carbon-dating indicated the cloth came from medieval times. Researchers at The Hebrew University has said that pollen and plant images on it put its origins in Jerusalem sometime before the eighth century.

Cori aka ChrisSCrush · 10-01-2008, 01:02 AM

Regardless of what you believe, knock yourself out at this fabulous website!

http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/H...roud_of_Turin/

Cori aka ChrisSCrush · 03-25-2010, 06:11 AM

Just in time for Easter, yet another test: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36027227...cience-science

Are they still operating on the assumption that this cloth is all one age? It's well known that repairs, some of them remarkably skillful, were done in the Middle Ages.

burbqueen · 03-26-2010, 04:48 PM

I believe with my whole being that the image is a fake. There is no way Jesus would even come close to looking like that. The image is very similar to the image you see of a skinny, long haired, very euro jesus. I don't care if the cloth is a million years old. there should be a way to test for DNA if anything and if not still DNA and anthropology tells us that the Jews of jesus day were very close to arab looking if not even darker.

Cori aka ChrisSCrush · 03-30-2010, 09:28 PM

WARNING: Interesting (but gory) pictures!

http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archi...aspx?GT1=43001

See, how could a medieval forger create an image of photographic quality that was not only non-directional but three-dimensional when it took till the Renaissance for artists to even produce decent two-dimensional portraits--which are still clearly recognizable as paintings?

burbqueen · 03-31-2010, 03:42 PM

ok i didnt click on the link. I get scared of gory pics! Just like the pyramids, I think people underestimate the ancient world and the shear genuis of some people back in the day. I think the effect on the shroud was perfected by someone and probably elaborated on over the years. The dimensions of the body and the face on the shroud arent very realistic.

As for a religious angle, I don't think that Jesus' essence or what have you would be left on cloth. I also doubt the historical and religious way the cloth was found and where it was found.

But to me the renaissance looking Jesus is almost comical and very, very inaccurate. I love DNA and the proof is in the DNA, as always. You can claim to be anything or anyone from anywhere, but the blood doesnt lie. All the religious strife in the middle east is cultural. Most ethnic Jews have arab DNA and vice versa.

I honestly think that if some people found out that Jesus looked like Osama Bin Laden or Forrest Whitaker dressed like a Iranian Ayatollah then they would have a serious pause in their faith. A lot of people want the "pretty" Jesus or the skinny, pale, sufferinig image they see in art.

I also don't get why people need the image of jesus in order to reaffirm their faith, but that's a whole nother topic.

leafygreens · 04-20-2010, 02:30 PM

Maybe Jesus doesn't have DNA at all because he's supernatural, the son of God.

Cori aka ChrisSCrush · 04-21-2010, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leafygreens

Maybe Jesus doesn't have DNA at all because he's supernatural, the son of God.

Most normal people have DNA from both parents. Jesus had at least ONE set of DNA, from His HUMAN mother. Question is, how would His Father's DNA appear (if at all--and presumably the Father is where the Son got that Y chromosome?) I did not WANT to say it, but you FORCED it out of me...maybe that accounts for Jesus's so-called "European" features? I hated to say it because it would sound like I was a racist saying God is white, but how do we KNOW what He looks like?

Jared Jammer · 04-21-2010, 01:19 PM

If the Shroud is fake, I'd say it's the greatest forgery of all-time, being centuries, if not millenia ahead of its time.

Cori aka ChrisSCrush · 12-23-2011, 12:11 AM

Every Christmas and every Easter with this! Here, again, is what I find the most sensible theory. http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_news...m?ocid=twitter

Cori aka ChrisSCrush · 04-06-2019, 12:18 AM

Shroud is authenticated again: https://www.nationalreview.com/2016/...darium-oviedo/

This just in: Joe Nickell is STILL an idiot! Some people WON'T learn! https://centerforinquiry.org/blog/tu...od_still_fake/

TheCars1986 · 04-06-2019, 04:19 PM

I don't think this will change people's minds either way. Those who have faith in God will always believe.

Cori aka ChrisSCrush · 04-06-2019, 08:03 PM

Yes, I saw a program on CBN where believers were of mixed feelings about all scientific data indicating the shroud being authentic. I haven't gone into many details, but briefly, the image is non-directional (not rubbed or painted on) and appears to have been formed by radiation. It is 3D which is impossible even in a photograph, let alone a painting. It contains authentic details no forger would have been able to do if they even thought of or knew to try them, some of which are so subtle that it takes laser imaging to detect them. Also, placing flowers around the dead goes back at least to Neanderthal times, and all the pollen on the shroud is from Middle Eastern, not European plants. The coins are also authentic. It is a NEGATIVE image when photography was not invented until around 1839! As for the features being "patently European," they aren't. The image is indistinct and painters copying from it later simply filled in the European features they were most used to seeing.

Everything Joe Nickell brings up is utterly bogus. The cloth is first century. It has patches, reweaves, and bacteria which skew the Carbon 14 dating. The blood is real blood, type AB, and the blood on the shroud and the separate head cloth (called the Sudarium of Oviedo) is from the same individual in the same pattern! Yes, 600 or 700 years ago, a man confessed to painting such a shroud, but it was a copy of the original. There were a number of such copies which when completed would be pressed against the original to bless it. This is how traces of paint got onto the shroud.

These people on the program were worried that for all these centuries most Christians have taken these items on faith, but the consensus was that perhaps scientific proof may help some doubting Thomases convert.

01-29-2005, 03:43 PM	#1
Blackout Sart Bimpson Senior Member Join Date: Jan 13, 2003 Location: where the sun rises Posts: 2,236	Article for all you Shroud of Turin lovers http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...n_turin_shroud Shroud of Turin Could Date to Jesus' Time Sat Jan 29, 9:01 AM ET By FRANCES D'EMILIO, Associated Press Writer ROME - A chemist who worked on testing of the Shroud of Turin says new analysis of the fiber indicates the cloth that some say was the burial linen of Jesus could be up to 3,000 years old. The analysis, by a scientist who was on the original 1978 team that was allowed to study tiny pieces of the cloth, indicates the shroud is far older than the initial findings suggesting it was probably from medieval times, and will likely be seized on by those who believe it wrapped the body of Jesus after his crucifixion. "I cannot disprove that this cloth was the burial shroud that was used on Jesus," Raymond N. Rogers, a retired chemist from the University of California-operated Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico, said in a telephone interview Friday from his home. "The chemistry says it was a real shroud, the blood spots on it are real blood, and the technology that was used to make that piece of cloth was exactly what Pliny the Elder reported fort his time," about 70 A.D., Rogers said, referring to the naturalist of ancient Roman times. "It's a shroud from the right time, but you're never going to find out (through science) if it was used on a person named Jesus," said Rogers, whose findings were published recently in the scientific journal Thermochimica Acta. Rogers wrote that in 2003, the scientist advising the cardinal of Turin, where the shroud is kept, provided him with pieces of thread taken from the radiocarbon sample before it was distributed for dating. The American chemist said he decided to analyze the amount of vanillin, a chemical compound that is present in linen from the flax fibers used to weave it. Vanillin slowly disappears from the fiber over time at a calculated rate, he said. Judging by those calculations, a medieval-age cloth should have had some 37 percent of its vanillin left by 1978, the year the threads were taken from the shroud, Rogers said. But there was virtually no vanillin left in the shroud, leading the chemist to calculate it could be far older than the radiocarbon testing indicated, possibly some 3,000 years old. Asked why carbon-dating might have been off, Rogers contended that "the people who cut the sample didn't do a very good job of characterizing the samples," that is, taking samples from many areas of the cloth. Rogers said he sent the results of his vanillin testing to the offices of the Turin cardinal and his scientific advisers but hasn't received a response. The Vatican (news - web sites), which does not claim that the shroud is authentic, said Saturday it had not comment on the new testing. Officials at the Turin archdiocese could not be reached for comment. The chemist said he doubted the shroud could be reliably tested any more, contending that a top-secret restoration in 2002 likely would influence chemical results. In the restoration, centuries' old patches were removed and a backing sewn on centuries ago was replaced. At the time, Shroud experts around the world were angered by the project, which they said should have had more outside collaboration. The Shroud is a strip of linen more than four meters (about 14 feet) long and one-meter (3 1/2-feet) wide that is marked by an image of Jesus. Believers say the image was left by Jesus' body after being taken down from the cross. Disputes have flourished over the 1988 declaration by the scientific team that carbon-dating indicated the cloth came from medieval times. Researchers at The Hebrew University has said that pollen and plant images on it put its origins in Jerusalem sometime before the eighth century.
	__________________ MOHRIOR

03-26-2010, 04:48 PM	#4
burbqueen Master of My Domain Frequent Poster Join Date: Dec 11, 2009 Location: texas Posts: 160	I believe with my whole being that the image is a fake. There is no way Jesus would even come close to looking like that. The image is very similar to the image you see of a skinny, long haired, very euro jesus. I don't care if the cloth is a million years old. there should be a way to test for DNA if anything and if not still DNA and anthropology tells us that the Jews of jesus day were very close to arab looking if not even darker.
	__________________ Baby Huba due 06/20/10!!!!

10-01-2008, 01:02 AM	#2
Cori aka ChrisSCrush Member Senior Member Join Date: Dec 30, 2001 Location: USA and still trying to be proud of it! Posts: 2,071	Regardless of what you believe, knock yourself out at this fabulous website! http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/H...roud_of_Turin/

03-25-2010, 06:11 AM	#3
Cori aka ChrisSCrush Member Senior Member Join Date: Dec 30, 2001 Location: USA and still trying to be proud of it! Posts: 2,071	Just in time for Easter, yet another test: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36027227...cience-science Are they still operating on the assumption that this cloth is all one age? It's well known that repairs, some of them remarkably skillful, were done in the Middle Ages.

03-30-2010, 09:28 PM	#5
Cori aka ChrisSCrush Member Senior Member Join Date: Dec 30, 2001 Location: USA and still trying to be proud of it! Posts: 2,071	WARNING: Interesting (but gory) pictures! http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archi...aspx?GT1=43001 See, how could a medieval forger create an image of photographic quality that was not only non-directional but three-dimensional when it took till the Renaissance for artists to even produce decent two-dimensional portraits--which are still clearly recognizable as paintings?

03-31-2010, 03:42 PM	#6
burbqueen Master of My Domain Frequent Poster Join Date: Dec 11, 2009 Location: texas Posts: 160	ok i didnt click on the link. I get scared of gory pics! Just like the pyramids, I think people underestimate the ancient world and the shear genuis of some people back in the day. I think the effect on the shroud was perfected by someone and probably elaborated on over the years. The dimensions of the body and the face on the shroud arent very realistic. As for a religious angle, I don't think that Jesus' essence or what have you would be left on cloth. I also doubt the historical and religious way the cloth was found and where it was found. But to me the renaissance looking Jesus is almost comical and very, very inaccurate. I love DNA and the proof is in the DNA, as always. You can claim to be anything or anyone from anywhere, but the blood doesnt lie. All the religious strife in the middle east is cultural. Most ethnic Jews have arab DNA and vice versa. I honestly think that if some people found out that Jesus looked like Osama Bin Laden or Forrest Whitaker dressed like a Iranian Ayatollah then they would have a serious pause in their faith. A lot of people want the "pretty" Jesus or the skinny, pale, sufferinig image they see in art. I also don't get why people need the image of jesus in order to reaffirm their faith, but that's a whole nother topic.

04-20-2010, 02:30 PM	#7
leafygreens Member Frequent Poster Join Date: Apr 12, 2007 Posts: 183	Maybe Jesus doesn't have DNA at all because he's supernatural, the son of God.

04-21-2010, 01:19 PM	#9
Jared Jammer Member Occasional Poster Join Date: Jul 14, 2009 Location: Indy Posts: 11	If the Shroud is fake, I'd say it's the greatest forgery of all-time, being centuries, if not millenia ahead of its time.

12-23-2011, 12:11 AM	#10
Cori aka ChrisSCrush Member Senior Member Join Date: Dec 30, 2001 Location: USA and still trying to be proud of it! Posts: 2,071	Every Christmas and every Easter with this! Here, again, is what I find the most sensible theory. http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_news...m?ocid=twitter

04-06-2019, 12:18 AM	#11
Cori aka ChrisSCrush Member Senior Member Join Date: Dec 30, 2001 Location: USA and still trying to be proud of it! Posts: 2,071	Shroud is authenticated again: https://www.nationalreview.com/2016/...darium-oviedo/ This just in: Joe Nickell is STILL an idiot! Some people WON'T learn! https://centerforinquiry.org/blog/tu...od_still_fake/

04-06-2019, 04:19 PM	#12
TheCars1986 #VLSKMS Forum Fanatic Join Date: Nov 22, 2008 Location: Maryland Posts: 8,615	I don't think this will change people's minds either way. Those who have faith in God will always believe.

04-06-2019, 08:03 PM	#13
Cori aka ChrisSCrush Member Senior Member Join Date: Dec 30, 2001 Location: USA and still trying to be proud of it! Posts: 2,071	Yes, I saw a program on CBN where believers were of mixed feelings about all scientific data indicating the shroud being authentic. I haven't gone into many details, but briefly, the image is non-directional (not rubbed or painted on) and appears to have been formed by radiation. It is 3D which is impossible even in a photograph, let alone a painting. It contains authentic details no forger would have been able to do if they even thought of or knew to try them, some of which are so subtle that it takes laser imaging to detect them. Also, placing flowers around the dead goes back at least to Neanderthal times, and all the pollen on the shroud is from Middle Eastern, not European plants. The coins are also authentic. It is a NEGATIVE image when photography was not invented until around 1839! As for the features being "patently European," they aren't. The image is indistinct and painters copying from it later simply filled in the European features they were most used to seeing. Everything Joe Nickell brings up is utterly bogus. The cloth is first century. It has patches, reweaves, and bacteria which skew the Carbon 14 dating. The blood is real blood, type AB, and the blood on the shroud and the separate head cloth (called the Sudarium of Oviedo) is from the same individual in the same pattern! Yes, 600 or 700 years ago, a man confessed to painting such a shroud, but it was a copy of the original. There were a number of such copies which when completed would be pressed against the original to bless it. This is how traces of paint got onto the shroud. These people on the program were worried that for all these centuries most Christians have taken these items on faith, but the consensus was that perhaps scientific proof may help some doubting Thomases convert.