"Snow, Glass, Apples" - Bebe Neuwirth

[Chambers]

We can analyze here. But I need to make lunch first.

[Chambers]

Well, let's start with the title.

The three elements that link the "Snow White" story we know today to this one are snow, glass and apples. Gaiman uses this fragmented title in order to subtly evoke the bare essence of "Snow White." He's stripping away every popular idea of the fairy tale in order to arrive at the "truth."

The title also allows for a shift of point of view - this isn't just about Snow White, but about the relationship between the queen and the princess. Snow, glass and apples are elements that mark important events in the story as well as significant moments between these two characters.

[Pirate Jenny]

Originally posted by Chambers
We can analyze here. But I need to make lunch first.

Loving the thread.
I just realised, though, I haven't listened to it for a while. I mean, I pretty much know it by heart, but I think for this I should re-listen to it.
So I'll get back to this.

[Pirate Jenny]

First, I'd like to start with some general symbology (is that a word? We'll pretend it is).
As Chambers did, I'm going to start with the title. I like what she mentioned about stripping Snow White of all its trappings, reducing it, in essence, to 3 words.
So let's start with those.

Snow-Let's look at the instances where snow is used in the story...

Lies and half-truths fall like snow, covering the things that I remember, the things I saw. A landscape, unrecognisable after a snowfall; that is what she has made of my life.

Outside, the snow fell, covering the footprints of my huntsmen, covering her tiny body in the forest where it lay.

Then I placed the apples in the silver bowl, and let them sit there while the first tiny flakes of snow of the year fell slowly onto my skin, and onto the apples, and onto the blood.

I shall think instead of the snowflake on her cheek.

In three instances, we have the snow covering something, and in each of those, that something is some deed or creation of the Queen's. The snow almost acts as a healing balm for Snow White, immediately appearing to cover or repair the "damage" caused to Snow White by the queen. Or, from the other perspective, distorting and obfuscating the Queen's work, covering her life, her deeds.
An act of dominance, almost.

The last instance of snow, the single snowflake, is almost a coda, a declaration of triumph, reminding the Queen that nothing of her will remain, that her life, her story, will be remade, not only has she failed, but she will continue to fail, long after her physical death. Her vileness will be reborn every time the story is retold.
(On a side note, I believe that she is aware of this, or, at least, Neil wrote the story not only as an adaption, but a direct rebuttal to the Grimm story, almost addressing it directly.)

Glass-I can think of two instances in which glass is used in this story. I'm not going to direct quote, because I believe a general summary will be more suitable.

-The Queen uses a looking-glass to scry, to seek out Snow White.

-Sheets of glass, lumps of it, are used to form a cairn for Snow White (interestingly, very unlike the smooth glass coffin we've come to associate with the story, we have a crude, almost primitive burial, not much different from the one given to her father, albeit with glass, instead of stone).

In this way, it is the glass that is used to keep the two characters separate. The looking glass is used so that the Queen can safely watch the Princess without putting herself in harm's way, and the cairn provides not only a physical barrier, but, also, while the Princess is under the cairn, as long as the heart hanging above the Queen's bed remains still, she is safe.

The glass is a buffer zone, acting as a definitive line between the two characters, distinguishing one from the others.

-Apples. These serve, in a way, the opposite purpose of the snow. They are completely part of the Queen's realm. When apples are used in the story, they belong to her. In both cases, however, she presents an apple to the Princess. The first time, it is a dried apple, during winter (Snow White), a reminder (albeit a dried one, sapped of it's juices) of warmer times, of fertility and life (the Queen). This first exchange happens immediately before the Princess feeds on the Queen's blood, before

I had been frozen by her, owned and dominated. That scared me, more than the blood she had fed on.

Before the Snow covers the Queen's landscape. Neil makes this clear by his choice of words. Not only is the Queen "owned and dominated," she is "frozen," and winter and death triumph over the bountiful harvest season that the Queen represents.

In the next use of apples, the Queen stands on top of a tower, and enchants three to use as weapons against the Princess.
As the waits for the spell to take effect, the snow once again falls on the apples, as we have seen above, covering her work.
However, this time, the Queen triumphs, her magic is potent, and, for a time, she is able to subdue the Princess. But, like always, apples rot off their boughs, the seasons change, and autumn submits to winter.

These are the symbols mentioned in the title...there's one more I'd like to bring up before I post this.

Blood.
Obviously, blood plays an important role in this tale, for it is, in essence, a "vampire story."

We have the Princess apparently feeding off her father's blood, ultimately killing him.

We have the Princess feeding on the Queen's, and as we saw above, "owning and dominating" her.

We have the Queen using her own blood in a spell, using it to concoct a poison against the Princess.

We have the the blood of the Prince, washing down the chunk of apple in the Princess's throat, washing
away the Queen's magic.

Like many stories, blood here represents a life force, however, it has other, more powerful aspects as well. Blood has the ability to create, or take away, life, it is for blood, and with blood, that these two battle. It acts as the catalyst, as well as the base of this story. It is the cytoplasmic gel in which the story, the characters, and their motives lie.

Next Up: The Role of Sex in Snow, Glass, Apples.

Oooooooooh!

But I'm going to take a break, maybe visit GLISFC, rest my mind.
So, have at it!

[Chambers]

damn, we think too much alike. But I was too lazy to type out those explanations.
AND I was also going to point out the role of sex next.

So um. Here are a few things I noticed:

Sex, like blood, is not a means of reproduction and, therefore, is not a source of life. It is actually closely linked to death:

-whatever the hell that girl did to her father
-the scene with Snow White and that penny guy
-the scenes with the prince wanting to um experience a deathly person...twice (with the queen and the princess)

This, too, is a vampiric quality. I don't know my vampire mythology or anything, but Hollywood has taught me one thing: you don't want to have sex with a vampire.

The princess also introduced death when she was born (killing her mother), further linking the idea of reproduction to death.

Now the next question, I believe, is why is this Snow White a source of death?

I mentioned in some other thread that one interpretation of the original fairy tale is that the older queen feels threatened by the younger princess. The older, wise, single woman is instantly labeled a witch, while the younger woman is made to be the heroine. The fact that this young girl defies age (she appears to have changed very little over the years, managing to beat even death) makes her an undeniable threat to the older woman, the queen. So on one level, their conflict may very well revolve around the notion of aging.

[Pirate Jenny]

I'm going to continue on the "sex" topic, cause, well, that's the fun stuff.

First of all, does ANYONE know what the hell she did to her father? Cause, like, no one that I've talked to really only has a sorta vague idea, and most of us don't really want to pursue the matter any further.
But I'm still kind of curious.

Alright, first, lets list the (um, can we even talk about this stuff at SO?) you know, things.





You know what, Chambers already did. I don't want to get banned here, and I don't know how I can describe them in a way different than Chambers without getting my ass kicked out of this joint.

Anyway, I'd like to add that not only is sex linked to death, but, more specifically, destruction. Something is destroyed in every sexual act committed.

Obviously, her father is slowly destroyed by, um, his daughter and um, whatever she DID exactly...

The monk dude is, well, is he killed? They never did specify that, though, since this wasn't a completely consummated sexual act (ie penetr--um nevermind, I'll assume you know what I mean, I'm trying to tread as lightly as I can, here), it is not necessary for destruction need not be complete either, to follow the paradigm (and Dulcey, let Kelly know that I sucessfully used "paradigm" in a sentence).

The unsatisfactory encounter between the Queen and the Prince is interesting in that it destroys more than one thing. Obviously, it destroys the Queen's chance for alliance, but it also marks the "beginning of the end" for the Queen, for by not satisfying the Prince's, um, morbid persuasion, he is driven to search for someone who can, namely, the Princess.

During THAT act, the Princess bites into the Prince's neck, and his blood washes away the apple containing the Queen's poison, destroying her enchantment, and further destroying her.

Even the Queen's death, while not of a sexual nature, per se, does contain sexual overtones.

The snow was falling as they carried me -- two men at each hand, two men at each leg -- utterly exposed, and spread-eagled and cold, through the midwinter crowds; and brought me to this kiln.

(note the snow again).

Speaking of the kiln, I'm sure in some way, it can be seen as a symbol for the womb, and the Queen's death within it tying back to the former Queen's death birthing the princess.

One other thing I'd like to mention (and thankfully stepping away from things that will get me kicked out) is that the Queen and the Princess are not opposites. While they are no doubt different, it is not exactly a polar difference.
Like I mentioned before, the Princess (Snow White, snow) represents winter, and death. Were the queen to be her opposite, she would need to embody summer. She, however, and her symbol, the apple, seem to represent the autumn, not the summer. This is clearly seen in that these are the only two seasons the Queen mentions:

Autumn is the time of drying, of preserving, a time of picking apples, of rendering the goose fat.

As Chambers mentioned, the Queen is, unlike the Princess, aged. note the "drying" and "preserving" and, like I mentioned before, the dried apple that she presents to the princess.

Winter is the time of hunger, of snow, and of death; and it is the time of the midwinter feast, when we rub the goose-fat into the skin of a whole pig, stuffed with that autumn's apples, then we roast it or spit it, and we prepare to feast upon the crackling.

Obviously, we see the snow, and the death. But also, I'd like to note, that while winter takes place after autumn, that does not necessarily go in contrary to my theory (ie, the difference in ages). As Chambers noted, it is not only that Snow White is young, but she DOESN'T AGE. This jives with the death thing, again. Also, note the allusion to the Queen's death in her description of winter.

Next up (unless I think of something better)...

The Importance of Food in Snow, Glass, Apples!

[Pirate Jenny]

And one more thing, on the Princess and Queen not being opposites...

She was not laughing, or jeering, or talking. She did not sneer at me or turn away. She looked at me, though; and for a moment I saw myself reflected in her eyes.

This can be seen as a purely visual comment, but I find it hard to believe that Neil would include this just to note that.
I think, at this moment, the Princess and the Queen almost sympathise with one another, and the Queen sees that, no, the Princess is not too different from herself.
Perhaps they acknowledge that they are both serving the same purpose? Perhaps it's a subtle nod to the fact that they are both, at this moment, becoming archetypes, that it is here, right here, that the story goes from a past, a reality, to a legend?

[Dulcineah1]

Wow, I'm intimidated to follow up to all these posts! It's been ages since I've analyzed anything, so let's see if I can still do it...

Re: snow

The thing that comes to mind for me is purity. White has always been associated with innocence, in this case a rather ironic twist since the Snow White of this tale is many things but not innocent. However, because she has that appearance, she is able to triumph over the older, more mature Queen. Whereas the Queen responded to the Prince's, um, overtures as a mature woman would, Snow White did not and consequently was able to retain his desire for her.

Re: apples

This reminds me of Greek mythology, for example, the tale of Atalanta who eventually lost a foot race and her unmarried freedom due to her desire for three golden apples that her suitor threw during the race. Then there is, of course, the apples from the Tree of Knowledge that Adam and Eve ate resulting in their expulsion from the Garden of Eden. In each case, the apples represent objects of desire that eventually lead to ruin. As Atalanta lost her freedom and Eve the Garden of Eden, Snow White lost her life due to this temptation.

Of course, if you want to talk about apples as food, that would get into the psychological areas of nuturance and gratification. Snow White's behavior throughout the story suggests strong oral tendencies, likely resulting from having lost her mother at such a young age. However, instead of being passive and dependent she is aggressive, such as the instant where she accepts the Queen's offering of an apple before biting her and drinking her blood much as an infant would during teething. She uses an innocent image in order to pursue her hostile tendencies.

More later, if I can think of any.

[Pirate Jenny]

DAMMIT! I promised myself, promised myself that I wouldn't respond again tonight, yet here I am, at 1.28 in the goddamned morning, and after rereading through the thread, I saw something that I wanted to touch upon that, knowing me, I would remember in the morning, but be to lazy/ fail to see the importance of it enough to post it up here.

I hate me.

Ok, anyway:

Originally posted by Dulcineah1
Snow White of this tale is many things but not innocent. However, because she has that appearance, she is able to triumph over the older, more mature Queen. Whereas the Queen responded to the Prince's, um, overtures as a mature woman would, Snow White did not and consequently was able to retain his desire for her.
]

Ah. I read this and a big huge imaginary higlighter came up, highlighted this and said (yes, it's a talking imaginary highlighter, what's your problem?) "Here. BIG F-ING ISSUE!"

Dominance. The assumed role of women in a sexual relationship.

We have the Queen, who initiates the sexual act. Not only that, but she betrays her feelings by expressing pleasure during the act.

Turned out of the Prince's room, she is followed by a volley of epithets, among them..."Witch"

Then, there is the Princess, the very picture of passivitiy, for, after all, she's dead...
She just lays there.
And that is exactly what the prince WANTS.

What does this teach us (and I think that Gaiman did a good job picking this up, after all, he was only accentuating what Snow White, as well as Sleeping Beauty, and scores of lesser fairy tales had already insinuated, he simply took it a step further, highlighted it)?
A woman shouldn't initiate sex.
She shouldn't want it.
Nor should she ever climax.

She needs to lay there, shut up, and take it.

Lilith vs. Eve, anyone?

And yes, once again we are taken back to the "oldest" story, and the rivalry between the two women is heightened.

That is ALL for tonight.

[Chambers]

Wow so much to talk about.

YES - Eve vs. Lilith - perfect analogy, periacta.

Let's also note that the queen's first sexual encounter was with the King, who made use of his "King's right" to take her to bed. Already, it is the man who has control of her sexuality:

He took all he wanted from me, the right of kings

And once inside the palace, it is still the king who decides when to have sex:

When he wanted me he would send for me, and I would go to him, and pleasure him, and take my pleasure with him.

However, unlike the prince, the king seems to allow the queen to take pleasure as well. At least in the eyes of the queen, this appears to be a more reciprocal relationship. (Also note how the king "returned" to her after their first time together.)

This may very well be the bigger anomaly within the society in the story. A woman without a noble background is plucked from the countryside and made into a queen - only because she slept with the king. Gaiman implies that their whole relationship revolves around this physical act of lust. So, in essence, the queen is given power through sex. This may be the reason why the people around her consider her a "slut."

This, combined with her supposed "wisdom," power and widowed status, makes her the perfect candidate for the label "witch."

Snow White's behavior throughout the story suggests strong oral tendencies, likely resulting from having lost her mother at such a young age. However, instead of being passive and dependent she is aggressive, such as the instant where she accepts the Queen's offering of an apple before biting her and drinking her blood much as an infant would during teething. She uses an innocent image in order to pursue her hostile tendencies.

Expanding on the idea that Snow White's vampiric behavior stems from her motherless childhood:

Biting is exactly what you would expect from a puppy who's been taken away from his mother prematurely. In this case, Snow White has been deprived of a natural bond between mother and child, and so her taste for blood can be interpreted as nothing more than a desire to find that bond.

Her father is obviously unable to replace her mother, and so she turns to her new stepmother. Snow White attempts to create a mother/child bond with the queen from the very beginning: her first words to her are, "I'm hungry." Note that Gaiman writes, "she said, like any child." While it is clear that Snow White is not like any child, these words are still true. In the conventional sense, the princess is a freak of nature. But in essence, her actions are not inherently evil but merely a way to satisfy a primitive and universal desire: hunger. She has never drank her mother's milk, so she searches for an alternate source of nourishment: blood. As a result, she does not develop and grow like a normal person would. Instead, she is frozen in time, preserved, unable to overcome this oral fixation. Her physical agelessness symbolizes a deeper psychological stagnation. Even though she has engaged in sexual acts, she is not considered a woman but a child. Her innocence, therefore, is not an act she puts on to deceiver her victims. She is truly innocent: she is unabashed, she has no guilt, she does not seem to know that what she does is wrong. She is still just a child looking to satisfy her hunger. One of the most disturbing aspects of this story is that Gaiman shows us the dark side of innocence.

[Pirate Jenny]

Damn Chambers, the mother-child relationship was going to be my next topic of choice.
This is getting scary.

I will expand upon some points once I calm down (I've had 2 shots of espresso, as well as 2 lattes today) and maybe get something to eat (I've had a cookie today) so that the sugar high goes away and I don't feel like I'm tweaking anymore.

[Chambers]

Originally posted by periacta
Damn Chambers, the mother-child relationship was going to be my next topic of choice.
This is getting scary.

Damn...what are we? The same person??

[Chambers]

Adding to what I wrote earlier, the nature of Snow White's actions is still very ambiguous. Gaiman blurs the line between childhood innocence and sexuality. Even the word "hunger" has an ambiguous connotation - it can either refer to simple hunger for food or hunger as in lust. As he explains in the beginning, nobody knows the nature of this girl. So why does he do this? I don't know. Too tired to figure out what that all means, but wanted to point it out before I forgot.