High Culture and TV - Sitcoms Online Message Boards

Chambers · 07-07-2004, 09:40 PM

I get the impression that the creators of Cheers and Frasier are actually a bunch of Dianes and Frasiers. Their constant erudite allusions in both shows can be seen as nothing more than an exhibition of their knowledge. The Simpsons work in that same vein. I guess those Harvard grads have to do something with their ivy-league education.

The best part is when viewers congratulate themselves every time they get an obscure reference in a joke. That's like liking a joke only because you get it. And, yes, I'm guilty of that.

For example, isn't Melville's supposed to be an allusion to Herman Melville? Ya know...big white whale...the sea...sea food...sea food restaurant...

Back to my point. There's more to this than just showing off. The creators of these two shows obviously have something to say about the role of high culture. Historically, high culture never had much use for anybody except a very tiny elite. Even then it wasn't exactly "useful"...it was more a marker of status, as it still is today - it suggests an expensive education. The high-brow aspect of both Cheers and Frasier actually highlights the triviality of high culture. In the end isn't it always the low-brow simpleton with the common sense who has the voice of reason? The Martin Cranes, the Carlas, and even the Ernie Pantussos - they may not have an expensive college education, but they have wisdom, which you don't learn in school.

Unlike so many shows out there (like Dawson's Creek and The Gilmore Girls), which use high-culture references as a cheap way to indicate depth in a character, the creators of Frasier and Cheers attempt to show people the importance of using knowledge. It's not enough to know things - what's more important is what you do with your knowledge.

This is not at all an anti-intellectual message. In fact, Diane often played the part of "the voice of reason" using her college education. Those were the moments when she actually used her knowledge for a greater purpose. However, the rest of the time she just flaunted it. To me, that's the biggest difference between Diane and Frasier. Diane flaunts her knowledge while Frasier actually uses it to help people. Of course...he can't help himself a lot of the times...but that's another story.

Ok enough of that. I think I've bored you people enough.

Brian Damage · 07-07-2004, 10:54 PM

Good points Diane Diane.

Chambers · 07-13-2004, 02:27 PM

Adding to this topic, the show also parodied - even subverted - the idea of feminism. Why that is, I'm not sure. With Diane's character, we first see a young woman whose education proves to be pretty useless - a little like girls who receive a superficial education so they have something to talk about at cocktail parties. Then she goes from being a feminist-type intellectual to somebody who is obsessed with getting married and seems pretty content with the prospect of becoming a home-maker. What saved her character was the fact that she left to try to become a writer. Of course, if Diane had been successful, her character wouldn't have been funny. A lot of the humor originated from the juxtaposition of her lofty intellectual pretensions and the blatant fact that she couldn't do anything better than work at a bar.

Rebecca similarly subverts feminism. She begins as an ambitous, independent, high-powered business woman, but the truth is she only wants to get married...to a rich guy.

I guess in the end, people just give in to what they really want rather than trying to live by some remote principle. That was the whole point of having somebody as cerebral and principled as Diane falling for somebody who made her sick. It was almost as if Diane was the Superego and Sam was the Id. It's all about finding a balance between instinct and intellect.

How's that for another pointless analysis?

Pirate Jenny · 07-14-2004, 03:08 AM

Oh my god, DianeDiane, I think you may be my long-lost sister!
Even Lilith was used as a parody of feminism...though she put her training to more use than Diane (and I won't even bother to compare her to Rebecca, cause that would just be a waste of time), her intellectual and professional sucess ended up serving as a detriment to her social, and later on, even maternal sucess. She was cold, friendless, frequently derided for her character (or lack thereof), and ended up leaving her husband for a colleague.
Though neither she nor her husband were particularly good parents (I have my reasons for thinking this, which I won't get into right now, other than perhaps to ask you who exactly was with their son when they spent so many evenings at Cheers?), she was the one who ended up forsaking the oft-thought "primary duty of a woman," abandoning her child and his father for another man.

None of the characters paint a very good picture for women's lib and equal rights...

I'd like to add, DianeDiane, that if Sam was the Id and Diane the Superego, then Carla would surely be the Conscience.

You shouldn't have started this, DianeDiane, now that I'm in my milieu, so to speak, and I could go on FOREVER! Don't make me write another essay about the subconscious male fears that the mythological Lilith represents! And whatever else I talked about in that thing...that was a damn cool post, if I may say so...
hey, I just did!

Shalom, yo!

Chambers · 07-14-2004, 11:11 AM

I almost forgot about Lilith, periacta. This can be our little Cheers analysis thread where we can go on and on analyzing the blood out of everything - but only because we care about these topics and not because we like to listen to ourselves talk

.

Lilith's femininity and sexuality was completely suppressed by her ambitions to be a successful, independent, professional woman. Essentially, to be taken seriously, she was forced to renounce her sex.

Diane, though very feminine, was nothing more than a "cold fish." Very conservative, almost child-like in her physique, she represents the type of woman who actively gives up sex for knowledge. What we get is a woman with a large brain and a very underdeveloped body.

The resulting message: you can't be sexy and smart.

Carla's character also contributes to this larger parody. Here's a smart woman who is overtly sexual and promiscuous but who fails to control her own reproductive system. Her fertility takes over her life, making pregnancy and motherhood a punishment. Of course, there's also a social class issue at stake here. Lower class women are subjugated by their own sexuality, while upper class women have the option of controlling it - even giving it up.

CliffClavin · 07-14-2004, 11:21 AM

Yes you can be sexy & smart ! How come I think many smart girls or women are sexy then? Am I crazy when I look at them & see something different ? Also she had a very developed body what are you talking about ? I loved it , Man

I also love Daphne Moon a lot ! LOL

Chambers · 07-14-2004, 12:01 PM

Cliff, I'm not talking about subjectivity or how "hot" some men think these women are. You're not understanding my point.

It is evident in the show that neither Diane nor Lilith actively develop their sexuality and display it like Sam's many bimbo girlfriends. The show's message, which reflects the feminist thinking of the time, suggests that it's very difficult for a woman who is outwardly sexy- a Marilyn Monroe of sorts - to be taken seriously.

I repeat, this is not a thread about how "hot" these women are. No drooling allowed.

CliffClavin · 07-14-2004, 12:04 PM

Feminists in the mid-80's to early 90's ?

Ok, I get what you're saying though.

Chambers · 07-14-2004, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CliffClavin
Feminists in the mid-80's to early 90's ?

Ok, I get what you're saying though.

I'm glad you get it, and, yes, feminists (more like pseudo-feminists) a decade or two ago tended to follow the misguided but practical idea of dressing and acting like men. Women still do that today, but it was more popular back then...I believe. Periacta can clarify and expand on that for me when she returns (she isn't online now).

CliffClavin · 07-14-2004, 12:31 PM

returns from what ?

Pirate Jenny · 07-14-2004, 04:49 PM

When she returns from hiding from a domineering mother.
And she shall expand on that, later tonight, when she has some peace and quiet and time.
And she'll desist from speaking in the third person, too.

CliffClavin · 07-14-2004, 04:51 PM

After tonight I won't be back until friday.

BritneysCrossroads · 07-14-2004, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CliffClavin
After tonight I won't be back until friday or something.

Say it isn't so. You're an awfully nice poster. I'll miss you.

Pirate Jenny · 07-17-2004, 07:18 AM

I swear, I had intended to respond before now.
I've procrastinated for so long mostly because I don't have much to expand on, other than, yes, women of the 80's and early 90's of dressing and acting like men, and still do, and I can neither confirm nor deny DianeDiane's statement that they do this less, because, honestly, I haven't been that observent, and also, in the mid-eighties, I was more concerned with, say, learning to read than I was with what women were wearing and how they were acting.
I can say that a common theme that I see in the Cheers women is that each of them has relenquished a part of their whole person in order to succeed in their chosen (of often, not chosen, but assigned) role in life.
This philosophy is still very commonly (almost universally) used by women, at least in western civilisation, leaving the common conception of a woman as a rather incomplete, fragmented caricature; a simulacrum, of sorts.

So, why do the creators of Cheers-- a show characterised (as we have seen) by its high culture-- find the need to perpetuate this twisted logic? Any ideas?

I'm not even going to hazard a guess right now, its four in the morning, I have a migraine, and my dry eyes are telling me that it's time to take my contacts out and go to bed. So I'll leave this up to you for now.

Chambers · 07-17-2004, 09:30 AM

Yeah, I'm no authority on the subject, but I believe that today women are more accepting of being sexual as well as intelligent. I'll take my examples from TV: Ally McBeal and all the mini-skirt-wearing female lawyers...and, well, that's all I can think of now...

Where do you stand on all this, by the way? Are you a Lilith or Diane in terms of appearing more conservative in order to be taken more seriously? I for one am still stuck in that old pattern...and don't actually want to leave hehe.

When thinking about the answer to that last question you posed, you can't forget that Sam renounced his potential for intelligence to be a whore. So does it work the same way with men, too? Sam's TV reporter friend acted just like Sam, and everybody knew he was even more stupid. Would Frasier, if he had acted like Sam, been taken seriously and thought of as a successful, intellectual professional? Cliff couldn't get a woman if he begged, so he relied on acting smart - as best he could.

I'm still not sure of the answer. I just put my own contacts in now haha...and I'm still sleepy...so now point in trying to answer this any further this morning.

07-07-2004, 09:40 PM	#1
Chambers The Crane Trinity Forum Veteran Join Date: Apr 27, 2004 Location: Where everybody knows a Crane. Posts: 5,427	High Culture and TV I get the impression that the creators of Cheers and Frasier are actually a bunch of Dianes and Frasiers. Their constant erudite allusions in both shows can be seen as nothing more than an exhibition of their knowledge. The Simpsons work in that same vein. I guess those Harvard grads have to do something with their ivy-league education. The best part is when viewers congratulate themselves every time they get an obscure reference in a joke. That's like liking a joke only because you get it. And, yes, I'm guilty of that. For example, isn't Melville's supposed to be an allusion to Herman Melville? Ya know...big white whale...the sea...sea food...sea food restaurant... Back to my point. There's more to this than just showing off. The creators of these two shows obviously have something to say about the role of high culture. Historically, high culture never had much use for anybody except a very tiny elite. Even then it wasn't exactly "useful"...it was more a marker of status, as it still is today - it suggests an expensive education. The high-brow aspect of both Cheers and Frasier actually highlights the triviality of high culture. In the end isn't it always the low-brow simpleton with the common sense who has the voice of reason? The Martin Cranes, the Carlas, and even the Ernie Pantussos - they may not have an expensive college education, but they have wisdom, which you don't learn in school. Unlike so many shows out there (like Dawson's Creek and The Gilmore Girls), which use high-culture references as a cheap way to indicate depth in a character, the creators of Frasier and Cheers attempt to show people the importance of using knowledge. It's not enough to know things - what's more important is what you do with your knowledge. This is not at all an anti-intellectual message. In fact, Diane often played the part of "the voice of reason" using her college education. Those were the moments when she actually used her knowledge for a greater purpose. However, the rest of the time she just flaunted it. To me, that's the biggest difference between Diane and Frasier. Diane flaunts her knowledge while Frasier actually uses it to help people. Of course...he can't help himself a lot of the times...but that's another story. Ok enough of that. I think I've bored you people enough.
	__________________ Member of the "God, Lilith is so ing cool" Fan Club Where everybody knows your tossed salads and scrambled eggs. FREEDOM OF THOUGHT blank

07-14-2004, 03:08 AM	#4
Pirate Jenny StrangeLittleGirl Senior Member Join Date: Nov 25, 2003 Location: Hangin' out with the DREAM king Posts: 1,128	Oh my god, DianeDiane, I think you may be my long-lost sister! Even Lilith was used as a parody of feminism...though she put her training to more use than Diane (and I won't even bother to compare her to Rebecca, cause that would just be a waste of time), her intellectual and professional sucess ended up serving as a detriment to her social, and later on, even maternal sucess. She was cold, friendless, frequently derided for her character (or lack thereof), and ended up leaving her husband for a colleague. Though neither she nor her husband were particularly good parents (I have my reasons for thinking this, which I won't get into right now, other than perhaps to ask you who exactly was with their son when they spent so many evenings at Cheers?), she was the one who ended up forsaking the oft-thought "primary duty of a woman," abandoning her child and his father for another man. None of the characters paint a very good picture for women's lib and equal rights... I'd like to add, DianeDiane, that if Sam was the Id and Diane the Superego, then Carla would surely be the Conscience. You shouldn't have started this, DianeDiane, now that I'm in my milieu, so to speak, and I could go on FOREVER! Don't make me write another essay about the subconscious male fears that the mythological Lilith represents! And whatever else I talked about in that thing...that was a damn cool post, if I may say so... hey, I just did! Shalom, yo!
	__________________ "The illusion is upon me that something adheres for a moment, has roundess, weight, depth, is completed. This, for the moment, seems to be my life. If it were possible, I would hand it you entire. I would break it off as one breaks off a bunch of grapes. I would say, 'Take it. This is my life.'" President, Founder, Demon Bitch and Head Pirate of the "God, Lilith is so ing Cool" Fan Club The paths that ghosts follow are written on the land in old words. Ghosts don't take the interstate. They walk. Is that what I'm following, here? All we are saying...is give peace a chance.

07-14-2004, 11:21 AM	#6
CliffClavin Yada Yada Yada Senior Member Join Date: May 04, 2004 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 1,403	Yes you can be sexy & smart ! How come I think many smart girls or women are sexy then? Am I crazy when I look at them & see something different ? Also she had a very developed body what are you talking about ? I loved it , Man I also love Daphne Moon a lot ! LOL
	__________________ We owe a lot to Thomas Edison - if it wasn't for him, we'd be watching television by candlelight. - Milton Berle

07-14-2004, 04:51 PM	#12
CliffClavin Yada Yada Yada Senior Member Join Date: May 04, 2004 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 1,403	After tonight I won't be back until friday.
	Last edited by CliffClavin; 07-14-2004 at 11:15 PM.

07-07-2004, 10:54 PM	#2
Brian Damage I'm Rich Bitch Forum Icon Join Date: Feb 03, 2002 Location: What Ain't No Country I Ever Heard Of...They Speak English in What? Posts: 63,107	Good points Diane Diane.

07-13-2004, 02:27 PM	#3
Chambers The Crane Trinity Forum Veteran Join Date: Apr 27, 2004 Location: Where everybody knows a Crane. Posts: 5,427	Adding to this topic, the show also parodied - even subverted - the idea of feminism. Why that is, I'm not sure. With Diane's character, we first see a young woman whose education proves to be pretty useless - a little like girls who receive a superficial education so they have something to talk about at cocktail parties. Then she goes from being a feminist-type intellectual to somebody who is obsessed with getting married and seems pretty content with the prospect of becoming a home-maker. What saved her character was the fact that she left to try to become a writer. Of course, if Diane had been successful, her character wouldn't have been funny. A lot of the humor originated from the juxtaposition of her lofty intellectual pretensions and the blatant fact that she couldn't do anything better than work at a bar. Rebecca similarly subverts feminism. She begins as an ambitous, independent, high-powered business woman, but the truth is she only wants to get married...to a rich guy. I guess in the end, people just give in to what they really want rather than trying to live by some remote principle. That was the whole point of having somebody as cerebral and principled as Diane falling for somebody who made her sick. It was almost as if Diane was the Superego and Sam was the Id. It's all about finding a balance between instinct and intellect. How's that for another pointless analysis?

07-14-2004, 11:11 AM	#5
Chambers The Crane Trinity Forum Veteran Join Date: Apr 27, 2004 Location: Where everybody knows a Crane. Posts: 5,427	I almost forgot about Lilith, periacta. This can be our little Cheers analysis thread where we can go on and on analyzing the blood out of everything - but only because we care about these topics and not because we like to listen to ourselves talk . Lilith's femininity and sexuality was completely suppressed by her ambitions to be a successful, independent, professional woman. Essentially, to be taken seriously, she was forced to renounce her sex. Diane, though very feminine, was nothing more than a "cold fish." Very conservative, almost child-like in her physique, she represents the type of woman who actively gives up sex for knowledge. What we get is a woman with a large brain and a very underdeveloped body. The resulting message: you can't be sexy and smart. Carla's character also contributes to this larger parody. Here's a smart woman who is overtly sexual and promiscuous but who fails to control her own reproductive system. Her fertility takes over her life, making pregnancy and motherhood a punishment. Of course, there's also a social class issue at stake here. Lower class women are subjugated by their own sexuality, while upper class women have the option of controlling it - even giving it up.

07-14-2004, 12:01 PM	#7
Chambers The Crane Trinity Forum Veteran Join Date: Apr 27, 2004 Location: Where everybody knows a Crane. Posts: 5,427	Cliff, I'm not talking about subjectivity or how "hot" some men think these women are. You're not understanding my point. It is evident in the show that neither Diane nor Lilith actively develop their sexuality and display it like Sam's many bimbo girlfriends. The show's message, which reflects the feminist thinking of the time, suggests that it's very difficult for a woman who is outwardly sexy- a Marilyn Monroe of sorts - to be taken seriously. I repeat, this is not a thread about how "hot" these women are. No drooling allowed.

07-14-2004, 12:04 PM	#8
CliffClavin Yada Yada Yada Senior Member Join Date: May 04, 2004 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 1,403	Feminists in the mid-80's to early 90's ? Ok, I get what you're saying though.

07-14-2004, 12:31 PM	#10
CliffClavin Yada Yada Yada Senior Member Join Date: May 04, 2004 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 1,403	returns from what ?

07-14-2004, 04:49 PM	#11
Pirate Jenny StrangeLittleGirl Senior Member Join Date: Nov 25, 2003 Location: Hangin' out with the DREAM king Posts: 1,128	When she returns from hiding from a domineering mother. And she shall expand on that, later tonight, when she has some peace and quiet and time. And she'll desist from speaking in the third person, too.

07-17-2004, 07:18 AM	#14
Pirate Jenny StrangeLittleGirl Senior Member Join Date: Nov 25, 2003 Location: Hangin' out with the DREAM king Posts: 1,128	I swear, I had intended to respond before now. I've procrastinated for so long mostly because I don't have much to expand on, other than, yes, women of the 80's and early 90's of dressing and acting like men, and still do, and I can neither confirm nor deny DianeDiane's statement that they do this less, because, honestly, I haven't been that observent, and also, in the mid-eighties, I was more concerned with, say, learning to read than I was with what women were wearing and how they were acting. I can say that a common theme that I see in the Cheers women is that each of them has relenquished a part of their whole person in order to succeed in their chosen (of often, not chosen, but assigned) role in life. This philosophy is still very commonly (almost universally) used by women, at least in western civilisation, leaving the common conception of a woman as a rather incomplete, fragmented caricature; a simulacrum, of sorts. So, why do the creators of Cheers-- a show characterised (as we have seen) by its high culture-- find the need to perpetuate this twisted logic? Any ideas? I'm not even going to hazard a guess right now, its four in the morning, I have a migraine, and my dry eyes are telling me that it's time to take my contacts out and go to bed. So I'll leave this up to you for now.

07-17-2004, 09:30 AM	#15
Chambers The Crane Trinity Forum Veteran Join Date: Apr 27, 2004 Location: Where everybody knows a Crane. Posts: 5,427	Yeah, I'm no authority on the subject, but I believe that today women are more accepting of being sexual as well as intelligent. I'll take my examples from TV: Ally McBeal and all the mini-skirt-wearing female lawyers...and, well, that's all I can think of now... Where do you stand on all this, by the way? Are you a Lilith or Diane in terms of appearing more conservative in order to be taken more seriously? I for one am still stuck in that old pattern...and don't actually want to leave hehe. When thinking about the answer to that last question you posed, you can't forget that Sam renounced his potential for intelligence to be a whore. So does it work the same way with men, too? Sam's TV reporter friend acted just like Sam, and everybody knew he was even more stupid. Would Frasier, if he had acted like Sam, been taken seriously and thought of as a successful, intellectual professional? Cliff couldn't get a woman if he begged, so he relied on acting smart - as best he could. I'm still not sure of the answer. I just put my own contacts in now haha...and I'm still sleepy...so now point in trying to answer this any further this morning.