Anyone See This Episode?

[Janet McFarland]

I just saw this episode Thursday and it was great! It was when Jacks son , Elliot , tries out for the cheering squad , and when Will finds his parents back together. I love when Elliot doesnt make the squad and Jack and Karen go to his school and do their own cheer! Jack and Karen are hilarious!!!

[lieferic]

As I gay man I thought this episode was the most stereotypical, awful written show in the whole series. I felt so embarassed for Elliot and for the gay community. This episode really jumped the shark for the series. It is so sad when the teenage son has to teach the "Father" about responsibility. If this show is where "America" is getting their educatiion about gay issues, no wonder there has been so much anti-gay legislation passed in the history of the nation. Jack is no role model for gay parenting. He is the poster boy for why gays shouldn't be parents. If this show can't enlighten the nation about gay issues,,,then for Gods sake don't do any harm. Shame on the writers and producers for making such a demeaning episode for gay parenting.

[ricardo/mertz]

Jack has never claimed to be a good father. In fact he just found out not to long ago that he had a son. I think people are smart enough to realize this is a comedy out for the laughs and not the depiction of normal gay parenting. Really not just gay parenting but, parenting in general.

[dynoguy88]

Relax, lieferic. I think you're making too much out of nothing. This is just a comedy show, remember. I don't think the writers were thinking about teaching lessons when they wrote the episode, they were just trying to get laughs. I am a gay male myself and I didn't feel offended in the slightest.

You have to remember that Jack is just....Jack. His character has always been irresponsible - Getting fired from every job he ever had, being assigned community service, constantly making fun of Will's weight, mooching money off Will and Karen for years and he has always been completely full of himself. The writers were just staying true to his personality. Remember, Elliot is being raised by his mom, not Jack. Elliot only visits with Jack once in a while because he wants to get to know him and be friends.

Personally, I always thought the idea of Jack having a son was crazy, especially given Elliot's age. It's just too weird. Is it even legal for a 17 year old male to donate his sperm? Don't you have to be 18? The idea of a 17 year old wanting to donate his sperm doesn't seem very realistic, but whatever.

I just wish Rosie O'Donnell would come back for another episode or two as Elliot's mom.

[Will and Grace Fanatic]

Everyone here is right.

The Jack character was never met to be taken seriously. Look at the kinds of things he does in his life. All who watch the show or most who watch the show realize that he isn't a role model at all and not to take his character seriously.

I seriously doubt the audience who watches Will and Grace think Jack is represently all gay parents.

[lieferic]

I can remember when W & G first premierd. I taped every one of them to watch over and over. I recently saw an episode from year one, where Grace is in a wedding dress and ends up in the bar with Will. He shared a kiss with
Grace and everyone in the bar clapped. I was so naive then, I thought Will would soon get a boyfriend and we could see a male on male kiss. It has never happened.

I have grown tired of all the bafoons and enuchs that are gay characters on broadcast TV. From the very first images of film they have had gay people portrayed as sissys and clowns. That was a 100 years ago, and I can remember the Texaco Theatre with Milton Berle. I can remember my Father laughing at the "f**s" when Milton and his guests would dress up in drag. That was the highlite of the weekly broadcast. Bob Hope was really funny with him in drag. Does laughter at a stigmatized group of people enhance their quality of life? I admire the Black community when they protested shows like Amos and Andy and the minstrel shows. Those shows portrayed Blacks as clowns and dancers, for the enjoyment of the Whites. Blacks finally made a stand and that kind of programming ended. They now have comedy and dramatic television that shows them in a real light. Gays have never made that stand and we are still in the dark ages for real gay programming. We will accept this kind of comedy, the kind the bigots and non-bigots can enjoy. We will never be taken seriously until we say enough, is enough!

I say Will & Grace has outlived its mission, unless they want to push the envelope to have real gay content in the show. Enough of the heterosexual stuff, it is time Grace's life stay in the background and put Will's life on center stage. If my Father were alive today he would still say,,look at the silly fa***t,,that Jack is sure funny. The process hasn't changed that much in a 100 years,,it is more slick and better produced but the message is still the same.

We now got Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, another show about 5 enuchs that make over straight guys, throw in Carson and the funny begins. The message is,,no life for the gay guys, it is still all about the straight guys and their lives. Hazel the maid meets the FAB 5. OH BOY,,,it just keeps getting better.

Thank God for HBO and Showtime, at least we can get some gay quality programming. Angels in America, fantastic---Soldiers Girl, fantastic--Six Feet Under, Queer as Folk and the L Word. Those shows have real gay characters with lives. My cable bill is almost 90 dollars a month, just so I can see some of my life portrayed on TV. I am not getting it on broadcast TV.

[dynoguy88]

You make some very valid points, lieferic. But remember, this is a sitcom show. The most important thing in a sitcom is to make people laugh with funny and likeable characters. You sound frustrated with so many aspects involving gays on this show and in other shows and I understand your complaints but you have to remember, 20 years ago, a show like Will and Grace would never have been broadcast on TV. And while we still have a long way to go, you can't ignore the progress that's been made. Not everything is going to happen over night.

Originally posted by lieferic Enough of the heterosexual stuff, it is time Grace's life stay in the background and put Will's life on center stage.

You obviously don't understand the premise of the show to make a statement like that. This show centers around the friendship of Will and Grace, hence the title. The creators came up with this idea because they, no doubt, noticed the strong bond that gay men and straight women have in this world. They share a very sweet, personal close friendship. Soulmates in a non-romantic way. If you put Grace's life in the background and mainly focus on Will, the whole premise of the show gets screwed up. You might as well just cut out the "& Grace" and just call the show "Will."

Originally posted by lieferic If my Father were alive today he would still say,,look at the silly fa***t,,that Jack is sure funny. The process hasn't changed that much in a 100 years,,it is more slick and better produced but the message is still the same.

I'm sorry your father was so close minded that he would continue to make statements like that. But he grew up in a time where the majority of people were like that. Not everyone these days still thinks like that, but that number will bound to lessen as the years go by. It won't happen very quickly but at least it's going in the right direction.

Eric McCormack stated himself that America is still not ready to see two men showing affection for each other on a sitcom show. That's why Will and Jack's love life is always talked about but never seen. Does that stink? Of course it does. It's hurtful. I'm gay myself and I hear everything you're saying. But you're expecting things to happen too fast and that's not being realistic.

[lieferic]

Dynoguy,, we are watching two different shows. Will has always been in the background. The show is all about Grace's life, how many boyfriends, lovers and now a husband. Will gets to talk about a former lover and every now and then a guest actor will be a date for Will. Never a relationship, there is always an excuse to break it off. Will is always there for Grace, to pick up the pieces or support her. It is time for Will to have that life and Grace can pick up the pieces or support him. That is what I meant by taking center stage. This show was sold as a "gay" show. I had hopes in the beginning but it really has never been a gay show. You could replace Will with Grace's loving straight brother and Jack could be the little sister to Grace. He acts like a little girl and you would still have the same show. The show is funny but it is Grace and Karen that provide the belly laughs. I personally would rather it be called the Grace and Karen show. Will is the straight man to Grace and Karen is the cartoon character. Sean Hayes will not announce that he is gay. He is probably ashamed of the Jack character as well. In the "celluloid closet" by Vito Russo he documented gay characters from the earliest years of film. As I said there was a film with a gay character dressed as a cowboy. He was so over the top, that it reminded me of Jack. That film was 100 years old. The Jack character has always been with us, he is nothing new. The Will character is non-sexual, therefore non-homosexual. Grace doesn't have to say she is heterosexual, she shows us. Will has to remind the audience he is gay.

Will and Grace could have been shown 20 years ago. All In the Family tackled these issues in a more realistic fashion 30 years ago. I can remember Archie getting a kiss from another man. Billy Cyrstal got his start playing gay some 25 years ago in the series called "soap". Dynasty had a gay storyline with the son, Stephen and his lover, that was 20 years ago. Those story lines had more gay content then Will & Grace does today. NBC is playing the numbers and they don't want to rock the boat. Well,, that is fine for the shareholders and the producers of the show, but quit calling it a gay show,,it isn't.

You are right,,it isn't going to happen over night. It has already been 100 years,,and still counting.

The British version of Queer as Folk was broadcast on their Channel 4. It is a broadcast channel much like NBC. Queer as Folk had huge ratings in England and it had full frontal nudity and men kissing men and having sex. Their "Justin" character was only 15. I can't expect America to grow up over night, but we should expect the growth to start. I just don't see it, unless you go to the premium channels. Since the Janet Jackson flap at the Super Bowl, I expect broadcast to get even more conservative. Gay storylines will be strickly toned down. I read an article about "An Early Frost" shown on NBC and written and produced by the same people of Queer as Folk. NBC wouldn't allow two men touching, unless the man was dying. Kissing was not allowed. That was 20 years ago. Today, still no kissing but at least we can have two men touching. The best we can do, is a hug. It's a baby step, maybe in another lifetime.

[Will and Grace Fanatic]

Lieferic,

you seem to be pretty upset about this stuff and say you pay $90 for your cable so you can see those shows. But the difference is you pay to see that channel there are no advertisers who could pull out of production of those shows. That is what NBC probably fears if they allowed as much as pay cable channels do the advertisers would likely pull out and broadcast networks can't risk that.

You feel that Queer as Folk is a much better program that represents the community better. It doesn't. That show makes it seem as if gay just have sex and that's it. I think Will and Grace makes the the community look better than Queer as Folk ever will.

[lieferic]

Fanatic,,

Will and Grace is a funny show, so was Amos and Andy and the minstrel shows. Last week I saw so many gay characters on TV in the same evening. I watched a rerun of Will & Grace, something on the Comedy Channel that made fun of gay people, then watched the Queer Eye for the Straight Guy and ended up watching Jay Leno and his sidekick "Ross the intern" who is a flamer. Ross went to Spring Break at some beach. He was having fun with the beautiful ladies wearing bikinis. He even mud wrestled the gals. The audience went crazy with laughter because this sissy couldn't wrestle the ladies, they were having their way with him. This is what America wants and I intend it is very, very sad that homosexual men are nothing more than clowns and buffoons. I don't blame Will & Grace, even though Jack does fit that criteria. Will could be that break out character, that masculine gay man that can have a life. You are right about the advertisers, they would pull out because they do not want to be associated with gay material,,,GAY = BAD. How sad is that? That is why Will & Grace isn't a gay show, it is a show that has gay characters with very little gay content.

Your comment about QAF...a little disturbing. QAF isn't politically correct,,and thank God for that. When I watch the daytime soaps,,there is nothing but sex, sex and more sex. It is all heterosexual, but it is still sex. So by your definition, I should feel that heterosexuals is all about sex. QAF is a gay soap opera and they don't block out "that sex." If you are a gay man and feel gay sex is bad and don't want to see it,,that isn't the shows problem. If you are straight and don't want to see gay sex,,I could care less what you feel about it. I have been watching heterosexuals all my life having sex on TV and Film. Dan Lipman and Ron Cowen said this in a recent interview about QAF.

""Sex is a very big part of gay life," Lipman said, but he and Cowen point to several characters in long-term relationships dealing with everyday situations like raising children and work stress."

"We're airing the dirty laundry," he said. "I say if they don't like the reflection, don't blame the mirror."

The Washington Post entertainment critic, Tom Shales said this about QAF new season,,

"The new season promises provocative complications and new variations on old relationships. Even in the first four episodes, one can see less reliance on production gimmickry and more on human conflict and interdependence. "QAF" obviously is not the show for everybody, but it's still the drama series least likely to play it safe and most likely to turn bluenoses red with rage. It's hard to be daring in today's shock-pocked culture, but "Queer as Folk" is still in there pitching, innovating and taking admirable risks."

QAF doesn't play it safe,,,and is still innovative and admirable. I was fortunate to be in Toronto when the last episode of season 4 was being filmed. It will be an episode that no one will ever forget. There is no Ross the intern, or gay stereotypes that comics love to mock, or gay guys dressing straight slobs. It will be a story of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and add in a whole bunch of love. Over 400 extras were on call, and not a dry eye was seen,,,just fantastic.

Shows like QAF have been produced in Europe for the past 20 years. Movies like "Get Real" and "Beautiful Thing" have been shown on their public TV stations. By the end of this year the European Union will make gay marriages legal, about 30 countries will allow their homosexual citizens to have equal rights. Their culture has been educated and enlightened about gay issues. In America 38 states have passed laws to make their gay citizens 2nd class citizens forever. A President wants to make the US Constitution to take away rights. Isn't amazing that Canada has figured it out, but America still wants to make homosexuals less than heterosexuals. I say take a look at what is being offered, and does that offering make a difference. I know Ross the Intern just takes us back to Amos and Andy days.

[spookystarbuck]

No - hasn't been aired over here yet (I'm guessing it's season5?) but it sounds great!