Cindy James - Suicide or Murder?

[justins5256]

Originally Posted by TheCars1986

I've never wavered in my belief that she was staging every single attack, and was doing this to herself. The odd part about the case is how police were never able to either prove the fact that she was staging everything or catch the actual perpetrator.

Interesting. However, I know you think the Wackers were victims. Can I ask what the difference is for you?

I'll just say I have similar views on both cases, and I guess for me the difference is the fact that Cindy James had a documented history of mental instability, and there is no such evidence with the Wackers. Also, Cindy James acknowledged that she knew who was behind it, yet she didn't disclose who this person was. I always found that highly suspect. On the other hand, the Wackers didn't seem to know who was targeting them or why.

[LooksLikeCRicci]

Originally Posted by justins5256

Interesting. However, I know you think the Wackers were victims. Can I ask what the difference is for you?

I'll just say I have similar views on both cases, and I guess for me the difference is the fact that Cindy James had a documented history of mental instability, and there is no such evidence with the Wackers. Also, Cindy James acknowledged that she knew who was behind it, yet she didn't disclose who this person was. I always found that highly suspect. On the other hand, the Wackers didn't seem to know who was targeting them or why.

I don't know if you did this on purpose, Justin, but I totally read the last sentence in "Robert Stack" voice-- "the Wackers didn't seem to know WHO was targeting them (ominous pause)... or why.

I still need to read the book about Cindy James. Initially, I thought she was murdered. However, details like not disclosing who she thought the perp was really do stick out as red flags...

[justins5256]

Originally Posted by LooksLikeCRicci

I don't know if you did this on purpose, Justin, but I totally read the last sentence in "Robert Stack" voice-- "the Wackers didn't seem to know WHO was targeting them (ominous pause)... or why.

I think I watch the show so much it finds it's way into my writing style....

I'm not quite sure how to feel about that.

[alistaircranium]

This is the show's most fascinating case. I firmly believe Cindy was stalked and murdered.

[RobinW]

I recently re-watched the original uncut version of this segment and there was a line I'd never heard before from one of Cindy's family members about how it would have been impossible for Cindy's body to have been in that location the entire two weeks she was missing since a lot of traffic went through the area and someone would have seen her much sooner.

Maybe someone who's read the book can answer this, but did they ever determine how long Cindy had been dead when they found her? Were there any signs of decomposition? If Cindy wasn't dead those entire two weeks, then where was she during that time? It's easier me for believe she could have been held captive by an unknown assailant rather than simply hiding out two whole weeks planning an elaborate suicide, but given the circumstances, the latter scenario isn't out of the question.

[dynoguy88]

Originally Posted by RobinW

I recently re-watched the original uncut version of this segment and there was a line I'd never heard before from one of Cindy's family members about how it would have been impossible for Cindy's body to have been in that location the entire two weeks she was missing since a lot of traffic went through the area and someone would have seen her much sooner.

Maybe someone who's read the book can answer this, but did they ever determine how long Cindy had been dead when they found her? Were there any signs of decomposition? If Cindy wasn't dead those entire two weeks, then where was she during that time? It's easier me for believe she could have been held captive by an unknown assailant rather than simply hiding out two whole weeks planning an elaborate suicide, but given the circumstances, the latter scenario isn't out of the question.

The death scene was adjacent to a busy street near a major intersection.

Here are some direct quotes from Neal Hall's book that might help out...

The death scene:

For pathologists and homicide investigators, a death scene is sacred. Once clues are disturbed, history cannot be recreated. But the clues at this scene were sparse. A McDonald’s cup was suspended in the brushes nearby while a soft drink straw was later found beneath the body. Both were tagged as evidence and would be examined in the lab. There was no syringe anywhere in the vicinity.

First inspection of the body at the death scene:


The body was in an advanced state of decomposition. The skin was drying and cracking – a condition known as mummification – and the corpse was skeletonizing in some spots. Det. Carlyle peered at one of the woman’s fingers, which appeared scratched to the bone by a finger of the other hand, the result, perhaps, of some involuntary action as the woman lost consciousness.

Information about a squatter who lived in the yard during that time frame:

Police also interviewed a man who was living in a blue van behind the abandoned house. Vasily Ufimstev, who spoke with a Russian accent, explained he had been living there for three weeks. That would mean he had been living within five meters of the body for at least a week, assuming James was not killed elsewhere and her body dumped. The squatter was not aware of the body until police and media arrived. Police noted the squatter cooked his meals on a fire-pit less than two meters from the body. Yet Ufimstev had never noticed any foul odor.

It should also be noted that the abandoned house on that lot was used as a party house by local high school kids and skinheads. It was confirmed by police that at least one party had taken place there one week before Cindy's corpse was found.

An experiment by Ozzie Kaban:

He attended the scene where Cindy’s body had been found to conduct an experiment that would test the effects of rodents and other animals on human flesh. Contacting the UBC zoology department, Kaban was told that pig meat would most closely resemble decomposition among human flesh. He then purchased about four kilograms of pork chops from a supermarket and left those on April 28, 1990 where Cindy’s body had been found. He then went back to take pictures every few days.

His findings? On the third day, April 30th, Kaban found his purchase had been attacked by rodents and birds. Two complete pork chops had been eaten or pecked at. On May 4th, more had been eaten and by May 13th (a full two weeks) the meat had disappeared entirely.

What did the morbid experiment prove?

“I could not understand how a body could be in the same location for two weeks and not be attacked by rodents and small animals known to frequent the Richmond area,” Kaban said. He mentioned he had talked to a neighbor adjacent to where Cindy’s body had been found and the man said he had trapped 12 rats within a year. Also, Kaban said, the house was frequented by high school kids and there was a man living behind the house, cooking his meals just two meters from the body. “I have a hard time believing no one would have found the body.”

[Charlie99909]

After reading this passage, I just ordered the book.

[RobinW]

Wow, thanks a lot for posting that passage, dynoguy88, that really clarifies a lot of information. Man, after reading about the decomposition and that numerous people were in the yard during that two-week period without seeing anything, I'm convinced Cindy died elsewhere and her body was placed in that lot.

Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean she was murdered. In fact, I can even visualize a Kurt Sova-type scenario in which Cindy committed suicide at another location or died of an accidental overdose, and someone else decided to dump her body in that location. I’ve always been of the mindset that Cindy likely staged some of the attacks, but couldn’t have been responsible for all of them. I’m still on the fence about whether it was murder or suicide, but given the strange circumstances surrounding the body and the unaccounted-for two-week window following Cindy’s disappearance, I’m convinced that an unknown party had to have been involved in her death somehow.

[Charlie99909]

Dinoguy,

Just got my book and cannot put it down. This is absolutely fascinating and yet tragic at the same time. I'm about halfway through in the two hours and have a whole new perspective on the case.

[dynoguy88]

Originally Posted by Charlie99909

Dinoguy,

Just got my book and cannot put it down. This is absolutely fascinating and yet tragic at the same time. I'm about halfway through in the two hours and have a whole new perspective on the case.

It is amazing, isn't it? It answers every single question (and then some) you might have just from watching the UM segment...like what was written on the note that was pinned with the knife through her hand in the 1984 attack?

Many other instances that UM never mentioned. And you could literally go through every single reenactment portrayed in the UM segment and point things out that were factually incorrect...although that really is nitpicking. UM's job was to give a basic summary of what happened which they technically did.

Despite how fascinating the book is, it still left me unable to take a definite side of murder vs. suicide.

[Charlie99909]

Originally Posted by dynoguy88

It is amazing, isn't it? It answers every single question (and then some) you might have just from watching the UM segment...like what was written on the note that was pinned with the knife through her hand in the 1984 attack?

Many other instances that UM never mentioned. And you could literally go through every single reenactment portrayed in the UM segment and point things out that were factually incorrect...although that really is nitpicking. UM's job was to give a basic summary of what happened which they technically did.

Despite how fascinating the book is, it still left me unable to take a definite side of murder vs. suicide.

Oh my god, the filth written on those notes. But at the same time, I'm almost leaning toward suicide. Like I said, I'm half way through so my opinion may change as well.

[theero]

which one of the books are you reading

[Charlie99909]

Originally Posted by theero

which one of the books are you reading

Neal Hall's book, The Deaths of Cindy James.

[alistaircranium]

Is the book back in print or did you get used copies? I'm looking in to getting it!

[Thiussat]

Originally Posted by Charlie99909

Neal Hall's book, The Deaths of Cindy James.

The guy who wrote that book is a skeptic and believes James did it all to herself. I haven't read the book, but he appeared in the UM segment and on other shows discussing his skepticism.