The Death of Norman Ladner?

[bluejazz87]

I always thought it was pretty obvious that he was murdered based on what was presented in the segment.

[mikewho]

I think this is clearly a murder but a lot of mystery and unanswered questions associated with it. I haven't seen the case in a while but from what I remember I didn't buy the suicide part at all. He didn't seem to have any reason to. An accident is always possible but the evidence points to foul play from what I remember.

[justins5256]

Originally Posted by MegtheEgg86

Re-watched this segment last night.

I'm not sure how the suicide theory wasn't challenged in a manner similar to that which was presented in the Rae Ann Mossor segment. I have a difficult time envisioning a young man putting the muzzle of a rifle to his temple, reaching over to engage the trigger, and being able to hold the weapon steadily all at the same time. And as a previous poster mentioned, if you choose to take your life utilizing such a firearm, placing the muzzle under the chin or in the mouth is more, well, comfortable and natural (as absolutely awful as that sounds). I know we don't have much information about the firearm, however.

For those of you who think this may have been an accident, how do you suppose that it happened? Does anyone have any other thoughts on this case?

I wonder if LE made any attempt to figure out the trajectory of the bullet that killed Norman. I think it would answer a lot of crucial questions. Consider...

1. The re-enactment of the suicide scenario shows Norman standing. He holds the gun muzzle up to the side of his head (I'm assuming point blank range here), horizontally, and squeezes off. If this was the case, the bullet could have veered off in to the woods and been unrecoverable, I'm guessing.

2. This was not re-enacted, but given the fact that the bullet which allegedly killed Norman (the one found by his parents) was found buried in the ground below where his body ended up, the only way it conceivably could have gotten there is if he was laying on the ground when the shot was fired and the shooter was standing over him.

This suggests a downward trajectory. Also, while it doesn't negate the possibility of a point blank shot to the head, it opens the door to another possibility - that there was some distance between the muzzle and Norman's head (i.e., the shot was NOT fired at point blank range).

My point is that we're talking about two VASTLY different scenarios here in terms of the mechanics of the shooting. Either would have resulted in very different trajectories, very different spatter patterns, different stippling and gun powder burns, and different destinations for the bullet. Not to mention the use of a different gun for the murder because the family asserts that Norman's rifle could not have fired the slug they found.

Did LE look at this? If so, it wasn't mentioned in the segment. However, I would imagine that any competent investigator would be able to pick up on these differences.

Also - for those who think this was a murder - do you think the killers intentionally "staged" this to look like a suicide?

[wiseguy182]

Originally Posted by MegtheEgg86

For those of you who think this may have been an accident, how do you suppose that it happened? Does anyone have any other thoughts on this case?

UM did a segment once on a hunter who had accidentally shot himself and nearly bled to death. IIRC, he fell out of a tree stand. I could see something similar happening here. Norman going up in a tree and falling out of it, the gun shoots him in the process. Wasn't the gun also broke in half? That might tie into an accident.

I need to watch this one again though.

[DarkDante]

Here is some first hand information from the other Ladner thread on the forums where a poster named rovinggambler sheds some light as to the Ladner case:

Hi. Lorance Lumpkin was the Pearl River County sherriff back during the time of Norman's death. I was only 15 at the time but my buddy who was at the UM filming with me told me that he felt Lorance was hiding something. I don't remember ever discussing what his reasons for saying that was but I wish now we had talked about it. Our paths don't cross much anymore...it's been 2 years since I've seen him. I need to get back in touch with him and hopefully we can discuss Norman. He and Norman was very good friends as well. We would walk to the little store very often and hang out with Norman back behind the store on the property his family owned and where he was killed. We could walk from our houses to the store in about 10 minutes. Norman would take us to an area where he had a target set up and we would shoot Norman's bow and arrow back there. He was alot of fun to hang around with...always a joker too. He would come to school with fake vomit and gross the girls out with it. Up until his death, we never saw any reason for him to be depressed about anything. Norman's father was right...he loved life and would never have had a reason to commit suicide. As far as the radio device goes...I never saw it but we heard the family talking about it at the store. I did see the bullet that came back (the one that was switched). His dad had it at the store and let me see it. Something that I forgot to mention in my last post was that his mom and dad divorced sometime in the mid-90's. It's a shame that I never really kept in touch with any of them after his death and only learned about the divorce years after they signed the papers. They were a really great family and I was shocked to hear about it. I can only assume that Norman's death contributed to the split. It has become a cold case and frankly, I've heard no talk about it in a very long time. One thing I do remember my friend saying to me was that he had seen a low flying plane...a small, crop dusting type plane...flying in the area of their land around the time of Norman's death. My personal feelings are basically what was laid out in the UM episode. Norman walked upon a drug deal and was taken out. I guess my friend felt that sherriff Lorance Lumpkin knew of the drug deal and did what he could to make it look like a suicide. I wish I knew more and maybe I will if I could make contact with an old buddy of mine. Later.

Something that I don't remember being a part of the Norman Ladner episode was the fact that his driver's liscense was found along a roadside in New York months after his death. This was something that his father told me personally. Everyone can draw their own conclusions but I knew this family. Norman knew how to handle a gun as most teenage boys in this area do. It's a part of life here...to be in the outdoors, hunting and fishing with your buddies, etc. I've shot arrows with him at his archery targets back on his property. Norman was a great person to hang around with. He enjoyed his quite time to himself as we all do but he also loved being around his friends. Suicide? No. Accident? Not likely. My idea on what happened? I believe he was in an altercation on his property in which his gun was wrestled away from him. His gun was probably swung at him hitting him across the top of his head causing the laceration. Norman, lying on the ground, was then shot through his temples (not with his broken gun) causing the bullet and particles of blood and brain matter to be embedded under his head into the ground. This would explain why the bullet that was found by his parents did not match Norman's gun. This bullet had a peculiar nick on it and was not returned to the Ladner's after a ballistics examination. Instead, a different bullet was sent to them. This knowledge, along with the missing wallet, the driver's liscense found in NY, the stranger's message to Mrs. Charlotte at the funeral home to not pursue this case, the radio device that was found, and the investigator's lack of properly processing the scene...all of this leads me to believe he was murdered. The other two options just do not fit with these circumstances.

The radio device in the woods was not discovered until after Norman's death. There's really no good way of determining how long it had been there beforehand. I don't recall him ever mentioning anything out of the ordinary being found on his property before his death.

[mikewho]

Murder seems the most probable with all the facts present. An accident? Possible but very slim chance in my opinion. Suicide? From what it sounds like not a chance. I think he stumbled upon some shady people on the property and things went bad really fast.

[bluejazz87]

Originally Posted by DarkDante

Here is some first hand information from the other Ladner thread on the forums where a poster named rovinggambler sheds some light as to the Ladner case:

Hi. Lorance Lumpkin was the Pearl River County sherriff back during the time of Norman's death. I was only 15 at the time but my buddy who was at the UM filming with me told me that he felt Lorance was hiding something. I don't remember ever discussing what his reasons for saying that was but I wish now we had talked about it. Our paths don't cross much anymore...it's been 2 years since I've seen him. I need to get back in touch with him and hopefully we can discuss Norman. He and Norman was very good friends as well. We would walk to the little store very often and hang out with Norman back behind the store on the property his family owned and where he was killed. We could walk from our houses to the store in about 10 minutes. Norman would take us to an area where he had a target set up and we would shoot Norman's bow and arrow back there. He was alot of fun to hang around with...always a joker too. He would come to school with fake vomit and gross the girls out with it. Up until his death, we never saw any reason for him to be depressed about anything. Norman's father was right...he loved life and would never have had a reason to commit suicide. As far as the radio device goes...I never saw it but we heard the family talking about it at the store. I did see the bullet that came back (the one that was switched). His dad had it at the store and let me see it. Something that I forgot to mention in my last post was that his mom and dad divorced sometime in the mid-90's. It's a shame that I never really kept in touch with any of them after his death and only learned about the divorce years after they signed the papers. They were a really great family and I was shocked to hear about it. I can only assume that Norman's death contributed to the split. It has become a cold case and frankly, I've heard no talk about it in a very long time. One thing I do remember my friend saying to me was that he had seen a low flying plane...a small, crop dusting type plane...flying in the area of their land around the time of Norman's death. My personal feelings are basically what was laid out in the UM episode. Norman walked upon a drug deal and was taken out. I guess my friend felt that sherriff Lorance Lumpkin knew of the drug deal and did what he could to make it look like a suicide. I wish I knew more and maybe I will if I could make contact with an old buddy of mine. Later.

Something that I don't remember being a part of the Norman Ladner episode was the fact that his driver's liscense was found along a roadside in New York months after his death. This was something that his father told me personally. Everyone can draw their own conclusions but I knew this family. Norman knew how to handle a gun as most teenage boys in this area do. It's a part of life here...to be in the outdoors, hunting and fishing with your buddies, etc. I've shot arrows with him at his archery targets back on his property. Norman was a great person to hang around with. He enjoyed his quite time to himself as we all do but he also loved being around his friends. Suicide? No. Accident? Not likely. My idea on what happened? I believe he was in an altercation on his property in which his gun was wrestled away from him. His gun was probably swung at him hitting him across the top of his head causing the laceration. Norman, lying on the ground, was then shot through his temples (not with his broken gun) causing the bullet and particles of blood and brain matter to be embedded under his head into the ground. This would explain why the bullet that was found by his parents did not match Norman's gun. This bullet had a peculiar nick on it and was not returned to the Ladner's after a ballistics examination. Instead, a different bullet was sent to them. This knowledge, along with the missing wallet, the driver's liscense found in NY, the stranger's message to Mrs. Charlotte at the funeral home to not pursue this case, the radio device that was found, and the investigator's lack of properly processing the scene...all of this leads me to believe he was murdered. The other two options just do not fit with these circumstances.

The radio device in the woods was not discovered until after Norman's death. There's really no good way of determining how long it had been there beforehand. I don't recall him ever mentioning anything out of the ordinary being found on his property before his death.

Thanks. I hadn't read this information before. I agree with him 100%. Something went down and Norman was just unfortunately in the wrong place at the wrong time. I hope those people burn in hell for what they did.

[MegtheEgg86]

I know parallels have been drawn between the Ladner case and Ives/Henry. In the latter, however, there seems to be clearly connected dots in a network of conspiracy (however complex it may be) within the state of Arkansas and spilling over nationally involving the war on drugs and protecting high-value informants (i.e., Barry Seal). We don't see such a highly detailed analysis/theory with the Ladner case.

For those of you who think the two cases are related a la the "permitted" drug running angle, why do you suppose it seems the Ladner case hasn't received near the level of public attention the Ives/Henry case has in this regard?

[DarkDante]

Originally Posted by MegtheEgg86

I know parallels have been drawn between the Ladner case and Ives/Henry. In the latter, however, there seems to be clearly connected dots in a network of conspiracy (however complex it may be) within the state of Arkansas and spilling over nationally involving the war on drugs and protecting high-value informants (i.e., Barry Seal). We don't see such a highly detailed analysis/theory with the Ladner case.

For those of you who think the two cases are related a la the "permitted" drug running angle, why do you suppose it seems the Ladner case hasn't received near the level of public attention the Ives/Henry case has in this regard?

Not to sound glib but Ives & Henry got run over by a train. Sort of an eye opener in enough of itself if you know what I mean.

[dynoguy88]

I never knew his drivers license was found in New York just a couple months after his death. That's a loooooong way from southern Mississippi.

[bluejazz87]

Originally Posted by MegtheEgg86

I know parallels have been drawn between the Ladner case and Ives/Henry. In the latter, however, there seems to be clearly connected dots in a network of conspiracy (however complex it may be) within the state of Arkansas and spilling over nationally involving the war on drugs and protecting high-value informants (i.e., Barry Seal). We don't see such a highly detailed analysis/theory with the Ladner case.

For those of you who think the two cases are related a la the "permitted" drug running angle, why do you suppose it seems the Ladner case hasn't received near the level of public attention the Ives/Henry case has in this regard?

Unfortunately that is how it is with America. Certain cases get picked up by the media and other cases are ignored. Remember the Scott Peterson case 10 years ago? Or the George Zimmerman trial? Two examples of incidents that were put in the spotlight, yet weren't all that different from other disappearances or murders that are never really profiled. There are tons of cases that aren't necessarily different from dozens of other crimes and/or murders, but get picked up by the media and other media outlets start following the story looking to also capitalize. Sad, but true. USA news media picks which stories rise to prominence like a person selecting a video to rent in Blockbuster.

[mikewho]

Anything's possible but I've never felt the two cases were related.

[MegtheEgg86]

Originally Posted by DarkDante

Not to sound glib but Ives & Henry got run over by a train. Sort of an eye opener in enough of itself if you know what I mean.

Sure, and I think that's a point worth making.

The FBI eventually became involved with Ives/Henry (largely due to Linda Ives pushing all those years to get a proper investigation into the case) after YEARS of state and local information gathering, so perhaps that's why we have a much more complete picture and clear connection to this particular angle than we do with Ladner, even though there was discussion about Ladner being murdered for nearly precisely the same reason Ives/Henry allegedly (certainly, in my estimation) were.

Curiously, despite the reports of low-flying aircraft dropping drugs and the discovery of an alleged signaling device in the middle of the woods, it seems the Ladner case is hardly ever brought up in discussions about Ives/Henry and/or activities such as what went on in Mena in the context of the War on Drugs. I suppose I don't understand why.

[MegtheEgg86]

Originally Posted by mikewho

Anything's possible but I've never felt the two cases were related.

Why do you feel this, if I may ask? I'm not sold on the notion that they're related just yet myself.

[DarkDante]

Originally Posted by MegtheEgg86

Sure, and I think that's a point worth making.

The FBI eventually became involved with Ives/Henry (largely due to Linda Ives pushing all those years to get a proper investigation into the case) after YEARS of state and local information gathering, so perhaps that's why we have a much more complete picture and clear connection to this particular angle than we do with Ladner, even though there was discussion about Ladner being murdered for nearly precisely the same reason Ives/Henry allegedly (certainly, in my estimation) were.

Curiously, despite the reports of low-flying aircraft dropping drugs and the discovery of an alleged signaling device in the middle of the woods, it seems the Ladner case is hardly ever brought up in discussions about Ives/Henry and/or activities such as what went on in Mena in the context of the War on Drugs. I suppose I don't understand why.

For what it's worth from the first time I saw the Ladner case (years after I saw the Ives & Henry case) I always thought the two were somehow related although not necessarily part of the same drug drop/operation deal. I think all three boys wandered upon something that they weren't supposed to see and were murdered as a result.

The suicide theory with Norman Ladner never resonated in any way with me. If anything it was an accident which obviously remains a possibility given Norman's relative young age, although as it has been pointed out, youths in Norman's area of the United States are far more experienced handling guns than perhaps we would believe at first blush.

Heck I remember it being reported that the deaths of Ives/Henry were first going to be reported as suicides but it was decided to list their death as accidental due to intoxication because it was felt that the local public would not accept a ruling of suicide in the case of those two boys.

Needless to say I don't see suicide as being much of a possibility in either of these cases.