FBI is Investigating D.B. Cooper’s Alleged Newly Discovered Parachute

[JamesG]

https://www.newsweek.com/db-cooper-u...d-case-1991589

[Awsi Dooger]

The FBI can't handle the truth. That's the best summary and unfortunate reality of that case. For more than 50 years the bureau has held a staunch anti-McCoy bias, to the point they have used scoffing language on the website toward anyone believing in McCoy. Imagine the absurdity required to claim McCoy was in Los Angeles that weekend, doing drills for the Utah Air National Guard. What weightless tip led in that direction? Yet it was enough for the FBI to run with it for a few years.

Now imagine the FBI tossing all of that aside and conceding the gross error. They aren't strong or classy enough to do that, IMO. That's why I'm not overly interested in the parachute aspect. That's a dubious connection, that it was the exact parachute. Much more meaningful is the McCoy kids coming forward. That aspect will lend to greater name recognition and curiosity, an opportunity for clarity to break through the nonsensical wall, the one that has gripped this case for decades and led to McCoy information being scrubbed from the Wikipedia and an all-but-forbidden topic on many devoted forums.

The YouTube guy who renewed attention to McCoy a couple of years ago has done a great job tracing the chain of command. He found out that only 3 people have led the FBI investigation. There's the rub. I suggested it here and elsewhere decades ago. Nobody was hired to this case, or promoted within the case, unless they earned the Ralph Himmelsbach seal of approval: Ignore McCoy or work at Burger King.

Of course, I would view that as a promotion.

Roughly 16-18 years ago I listed to an LDS radio program devoted to the DB Cooper case. The guest was the FBI guy who was then leading the investigation. Since it was a Utah-based program, naturally I expected McCoy to be the focus.

Hardly. The FBI guy cut that off immediately. Very early in the program he said, "I guarantee it wasn't McCoy."

That was it. He offered no reason or explanation. His words were interjected instead of flowing from the course of conversation. But I didn't have to wonder what was going on. Pal, that attitude is the only reason you hold that position. You're safe and salaried as long as you cling to it. Go chase the latest new name every year.

I think the FBI will eventually name McCoy as Cooper. But we're still too close, too many Himmelsbach guys still around. It's going to require a cleansing, and likely beyond my lifespan.

[Awsi Dooger]

Very lengthy post. I think I've figured out the Karen McCoy situation. I'll deal with it in one swoop:

The widow Karen McCoy quickly sued the authors and publisher of the book, “DB Cooper, the Real McCoy.” Why would she do that, if she knew her husband had been DB Cooper? It has always been a valid question.

The answer now seems very clear, when tying together three newly available pieces of information.

Karen McCoy’s lawsuit had nothing to do with her husband as DB Cooper. She was a proud woman who was suing to protect her own reputation. Scroll to the final paragraph if you want those details, minus the set up.

Situational influence is always the bedrock toward understanding landscape and thought process. By the date of the book publishing in 1991, Karen McCoy had lived with the DB Cooper secret for 20 years. She had always assumed it would come back to her husband. The FBI can’t possibly continue to bungle, as new generations of agents take a look.

Then there it is in black and white, hundreds of pages with all the details. Karen McCoy no longer has to guess. She sees the description of the wee hour drive to Las Vegas, immediately preceding the Cooper event and verified by multiple credit card receipts. Our Thanksgiving alibi is screwed. They know about the practice run to Las Vegas two weeks earlier. All the commonalities of the two hijackings are described, ones that can’t possibly be coincidence. The side by side of her husband and the Cooper sketch is within the book with patent weight.

This has to explode. That’s what she is thinking. There is going to be consensus. And soon there will be a movie. I have to act now.

First, the bedrock. I’ll remind of her son Rick McCoy’s recent quote, “And trust me, nobody was forcing my mother to do anything."

That’s the driving force, the character trait. She was headstrong and undaunted. Nobody was going to tell Karen McCoy that suing the book was ill advised or too risky.

Again, the layout of 1991. Karen McCoy has used those 20 years in admirable fashion. We know from her daughter Chante’s recent graveside video clip that Karen McCoy as widow rebuilt her life to earn a Master’s Degree and a PhD. By 1991 those degrees may not have been complete. I don’t know the timetable. It’s possible she used the funds from the lawsuit victory to fund advanced education. Regardless, no doubt she was immensely proud. But none of that will matter, if she is portrayed in a big screen movie following the insinuations of that book.

The co-authors Bernie Rhodes and Russell Calame took many liberties while describing McCoy’s prison escape and the 3 months on the lam before he was killed. To be fair, that wasn’t their priority. They had devoted years to gathering material to establish McCoy as Cooper. The remainder of the book was glorified filler.

It was anything but filler to Karen McCoy. The authors left the distinct impression that Karen McCoy had an affair with an FBI agent, that she became smitten with him and tipped the FBI to the address of Richard McCoy’s hideaway in Virginia Beach, where he was killed. I’m sure I relayed those impressions here. Anyone who read the book would have them.

Frankly, the authors probably got it wrong. Karen McCoy would have been livid. That lends to the second bit of newly available information, a link that appeared in 2018 although I didn’t find it until last year. I’ll quote the key section:

https://fearoflanding.com/history/th...loyd-mccoy-jr/

“The book implied that the FBI agents had spoken to Mrs McCoy and other witnesses directly… but Mrs McCoy had refused to speak to them and certainly hadn’t told them her part in the hijack planning.

It turned out that in 1972, after his arrest and sentencing, McCoy came up with a plan to publish a book about his heist and hired an attorney in Provo to act as his agent. This came to nothing after his death but the attorney kept the transcripts of interviews with McCoy and his family, including his mother, his wife, his brother and Mrs McCoy’s sister.

The FBI agents had learned of this and requested the files from the attorney. He “graciously” agreed to give them everything he had kept: almost two hundred pages of interview transcripts. Bernie Rhodes later explained that he reconstructed the information from those transcripts and then rewrote the interviews as though he had conducted them himself, “to give more immediacy to the dialogue”.

***

That was extreme clarity. Not only is Karen McCoy being portrayed as a cheater and a snitch, but direct quotes are implying that herself and other family members cooperated with a book author who they never spoke to. That in itself would have fueled Karen McCoy’s belief that a lawsuit had huge opportunity to succeed.

When I called co-author Russell Calame circa 2006 and eventually asked about Karen McCoy’s lawsuit, he surprised me by talking about a movie. I wasn’t prepared for that at all. Nothing online was spotlighting that aspect. Everybody was using Karen McCoy’s victory in the lawsuit as proof that McCoy was not Cooper.

As I detailed here, Calame insisted that was malarkey. He said Karen McCoy was so shook up on the stand she was repeatedly asking for water breaks. Calame said his lawyers, “had her on the ropes,” throughout, to degree that he felt sorry for her and wished it hadn’t come to this.

Calame explained that all Karen McCoy cared about was a movie. Once her lawyer shifted exclusively to that topic, Calame and Rhodes were extremely relieved. They were old men and worn out, after a decade researching the book. They had no intention of doing a movie or participating in one. Once both sides agreed, the judge quickly ruled in Karen McCoy’s favor.

In hindsight I didn’t ask enough questions. Calame left the impression it was no movie period. But that’s not what the judge ruled. This is where the third newly available link comes in handy. Karen McCoy didn’t dare believe she could prevent a movie. She filed the lawsuit and entered that courtroom with focused intent on preventing a movie from characterizing her as the book had.

This is the third link, new as of last year. When I posted here at length regarding McCoy two decades ago, I did it largely because I was miffed that so little info was available on the internet. I remember emphasizing that during the long thread, that it was becoming the best online source for McCoy as Cooper. I don’t think the moderators understood that aspect, or the value. Thankfully the rest of the internet has now caught up, including this link: https://ericroots.wordpress.com/2023...of-flight-855/

That link is ostensibly an account of the blogger’s cousin, who was the pilot of the second plane hijacked by McCoy. But if you continue to scroll, the hefty bulk of the blog post centers on the hijacking and all of the residue, including the trial, the escape, and the lawsuit. It’s easily the best one-source summary I’ve seen. And within the description of the lawsuit is the key focus, that Karen McCoy disputed sections of the book related to herself, and wanted to make sure they were excluded from any movie:

“She denied allegations raised in the book that she drove a getaway car in his prison escape, that she dated an FBI agent, that she conspired with the FBI to have her husband killed or captured, or that she threatened to throw her daughter under the wheels of a truck: “I was not unfaithful to Richard McCoy. I did not help have him killed. I feel like I’m barely holding on, and I have worked too hard to hold on.” Judge Wilkinson ruled that any movie made from the book would be prohibited from including those specific allegations.”

[Labonte18]

Originally Posted by Awsi Dooger

The FBI can't handle the truth. That's the best summary and unfortunate reality of that case. For more than 50 years the bureau has held a staunch anti-McCoy bias, to the point they have used scoffing language on the website toward anyone believing in McCoy. Imagine the absurdity required to claim McCoy was in Los Angeles that weekend, doing drills for the Utah Air National Guard. What weightless tip led in that direction? Yet it was enough for the FBI to run with it for a few years.

Now imagine the FBI tossing all of that aside and conceding the gross error. They aren't strong or classy enough to do that, IMO. That's why I'm not overly interested in the parachute aspect. That's a dubious connection, that it was the exact parachute. Much more meaningful is the McCoy kids coming forward. That aspect will lend to greater name recognition and curiosity, an opportunity for clarity to break through the nonsensical wall, the one that has gripped this case for decades and led to McCoy information being scrubbed from the Wikipedia and an all-but-forbidden topic on many devoted forums.

The YouTube guy who renewed attention to McCoy a couple of years ago has done a great job tracing the chain of command. He found out that only 3 people have led the FBI investigation. There's the rub. I suggested it here and elsewhere decades ago. Nobody was hired to this case, or promoted within the case, unless they earned the Ralph Himmelsbach seal of approval: Ignore McCoy or work at Burger King.

Of course, I would view that as a promotion.

Roughly 16-18 years ago I listed to an LDS radio program devoted to the DB Cooper case. The guest was the FBI guy who was then leading the investigation. Since it was a Utah-based program, naturally I expected McCoy to be the focus.

Hardly. The FBI guy cut that off immediately. Very early in the program he said, "I guarantee it wasn't McCoy."

That was it. He offered no reason or explanation. His words were interjected instead of flowing from the course of conversation. But I didn't have to wonder what was going on. Pal, that attitude is the only reason you hold that position. You're safe and salaried as long as you cling to it. Go chase the latest new name every year.

I think the FBI will eventually name McCoy as Cooper. But we're still too close, too many Himmelsbach guys still around. It's going to require a cleansing, and likely beyond my lifespan.

And.. You have to toss out the evidence pointing AWAY from it being McCoy. So, what you're looking down your nose at people for is exactly the same thing that you are doing.

the first one being.. All the FAs who had contact with him said "No, that's not the guy".. Now.. i'll give you this one, because eyewitness ID is.. Just horrendous. Especially under stressful circumstances. Normally, the ID is more "That's the guy" vs "That's not him", but.. I don't rely on this one.

Here's where McCoy as a suspect falls apart for me. Now, I wouldn't say 100% it's NOT him, but.. I give it fairly low odds compared to 'Persons Unknown" which are at the top of my list. I think McCoy is.. The Shasta Cola of hijackers.. While DB Cooper is the real thing, the original Coke. McCoy is likely just a poor imitation.

The difference between the Cooper and McCoy hijackings, once you drill down into the details, is night and day. Looking from a high level.. Sure.. they both hijacked the same type plane, made ransom demands, parachuted out. both in.. Somewhat the same geographical area.

but.. Cooper had, maybe, a bomb.. We don't know for sure. McCoy a hand grenade and pistol.

We don't know what happened to Cooper after the jump, but McCoy, wearing a flight suit and carrying a duffel bag with $500k in it, was thumbing a ride back home.. The motorist tipped off the FBI and McCoy was arrested two days later.

BTW.. McCoy was with his family in Utah for Thanksgiving 2 days after the Cooper jump and was placed in Las Vegas the day of the hijacking. He was flying national guard choppers during the search for himself.

The McCoy hijacking was roughly 4 months after the Cooper hijacking..

If you look at the details.. Cooper was fairly picture perfect. He took all evidence, other than that tie clip, with him when he left the plane. McCoy left all that, and that's what was used to convict him. Cooper was nearly picture perfect execution. McCoy was a bumbling idiot.

I can't see him going from Capone to Costello like that. I just can't put that the person who did things so perfectly just 4 months later did things so poorly that he was caught within two days.

Further.. The question ANYONE must answer, no matter who you think did it, if you think anything other than they went splat when jumping..

Where's the money? McCoy, they found the duffel bag with all but $30 of the ransom at his house. Where's the $200k from Cooper? We know where a few thousand wound up, but that's it.

Now.. You can have the theory that both were McCoy and he lost the money in the first jump.. That's a legitimate possibility. But.. You still have to get past him pulling off a picture perfect hijacking to being one of the Three Stooges in the second.

As for the wife and why she sued.. Well.. She was culpable. She knew about it. I can make the argument there that she was attempting to cover her own butt so that she didn't get charges filed against her. I don't know when she passed, but.. She might have been on the hook for conspiracy or aiding/abetting charges.


Anyway.. I don't think they were the same person due to the above.. However.. I do keep an open mind. The latest evidence is nothing that changes my mind. It's plausible that it's McCoy, but.. Too much doesn't fit for my tastes.

My theory has been that it was a Canadian military person who was likely stationed in eastern Canada. They went splat when jumping. It would fit the Dan Cooper comics, if that is legit.. It would fit the 'nondescript' accent that Cooper had. It would explain, perhaps, why he wasn't identified. Someone goes missing in Quebec around that time, you don't necessarily suspect them of a hijacking across the continent in a different country. And, the Canadian air force would work with Titanium, which was found on the tie clip. And the way Cooper referred to the money, which was a bit odd. "Negotiable American Currency".. While that could have been something done to deflect suspicion.. It's just not the way an American would talk.

Am I right? I doubt it.. But.. That's the best I could come up with to fit most of the evidence.


Oh yeah.. And McCoy couldn't shut up. He talked to people after the Cooper hijacking about how he could pull that off. So.. You also have to believe that not only did he go from telling no one anything to then not being able to shut his damn mouth.

[DALLASTEXAN!!]

was there not an FBI Files episode about McCoy's Highjacking where the agent featured in the episode claims that they believed McCoy was Cooper?

I get that the FBI closed the case and seemed to move on from the McCoy connection. But there were some in the FBI who did investigate McCoy. It's not as if all of the agency have done something here to cover up a case. From my understanding there was not enough evidence to conclude that McCoy is Cooper.

[DALLASTEXAN!!]

Originally Posted by Labonte18

And.. You have to toss out the evidence pointing AWAY from it being McCoy. So, what you're looking down your nose at people for is exactly the same thing that you are doing.

the first one being.. All the FAs who had contact with him said "No, that's not the guy".. Now.. i'll give you this one, because eyewitness ID is.. Just horrendous. Especially under stressful circumstances. Normally, the ID is more "That's the guy" vs "That's not him", but.. I don't rely on this one.

Here's where McCoy as a suspect falls apart for me. Now, I wouldn't say 100% it's NOT him, but.. I give it fairly low odds compared to 'Persons Unknown" which are at the top of my list. I think McCoy is.. The Shasta Cola of hijackers.. While DB Cooper is the real thing, the original Coke. McCoy is likely just a poor imitation.

The difference between the Cooper and McCoy hijackings, once you drill down into the details, is night and day. Looking from a high level.. Sure.. they both hijacked the same type plane, made ransom demands, parachuted out. both in.. Somewhat the same geographical area.

but.. Cooper had, maybe, a bomb.. We don't know for sure. McCoy a hand grenade and pistol.

We don't know what happened to Cooper after the jump, but McCoy, wearing a flight suit and carrying a duffel bag with $500k in it, was thumbing a ride back home.. The motorist tipped off the FBI and McCoy was arrested two days later.

BTW.. McCoy was with his family in Utah for Thanksgiving 2 days after the Cooper jump and was placed in Las Vegas the day of the hijacking. He was flying national guard choppers during the search for himself.

The McCoy hijacking was roughly 4 months after the Cooper hijacking..

If you look at the details.. Cooper was fairly picture perfect. He took all evidence, other than that tie clip, with him when he left the plane. McCoy left all that, and that's what was used to convict him. Cooper was nearly picture perfect execution. McCoy was a bumbling idiot.

I can't see him going from Capone to Costello like that. I just can't put that the person who did things so perfectly just 4 months later did things so poorly that he was caught within two days.

Further.. The question ANYONE must answer, no matter who you think did it, if you think anything other than they went splat when jumping..

Where's the money? McCoy, they found the duffel bag with all but $30 of the ransom at his house. Where's the $200k from Cooper? We know where a few thousand wound up, but that's it.

Now.. You can have the theory that both were McCoy and he lost the money in the first jump.. That's a legitimate possibility. But.. You still have to get past him pulling off a picture perfect hijacking to being one of the Three Stooges in the second.

As for the wife and why she sued.. Well.. She was culpable. She knew about it. I can make the argument there that she was attempting to cover her own butt so that she didn't get charges filed against her. I don't know when she passed, but.. She might have been on the hook for conspiracy or aiding/abetting charges.


Anyway.. I don't think they were the same person due to the above.. However.. I do keep an open mind. The latest evidence is nothing that changes my mind. It's plausible that it's McCoy, but.. Too much doesn't fit for my tastes.

My theory has been that it was a Canadian military person who was likely stationed in eastern Canada. They went splat when jumping. It would fit the Dan Cooper comics, if that is legit.. It would fit the 'nondescript' accent that Cooper had. It would explain, perhaps, why he wasn't identified. Someone goes missing in Quebec around that time, you don't necessarily suspect them of a hijacking across the continent in a different country. And, the Canadian air force would work with Titanium, which was found on the tie clip. And the way Cooper referred to the money, which was a bit odd. "Negotiable American Currency".. While that could have been something done to deflect suspicion.. It's just not the way an American would talk.

Am I right? I doubt it.. But.. That's the best I could come up with to fit most of the evidence.


Oh yeah.. And McCoy couldn't shut up. He talked to people after the Cooper hijacking about how he could pull that off. So.. You also have to believe that not only did he go from telling no one anything to then not being able to shut his damn mouth.

I don't really see them being different. They are both thugs in my opinion and one is not better than the other. or maybe they are the same guy IDK.

Assuming that McCoy and Cooper are not the same person as you insinuated: one person didn't care about surviving. McCoy wanted to get the money and not be caught. McCoy was successful in the fact that he got away, at least for a little while. He used countermeasures and evasive actions that IDK that Cooper used. McCoy also jumped over terrain that was survivable and ensure that he survived and kept the money.

Now if they are the same guy, which is possible. McCoy made changes after the Cooper jump. but perhaps those changes exposed him enough to be caught. If they are not the same, then McCoy was a copy cat and made the changes to account for Cooper's mistakes. I always thought that McCoy was the best suspect of all that were brought forward, but I always think that he could have been an opportunistic copy cat criminal as well.

[Labonte18]

Originally Posted by DALLASTEXAN!!

was there not an FBI Files episode about McCoy's Highjacking where the agent featured in the episode claims that they believed McCoy was Cooper?

I get that the FBI closed the case and seemed to move on from the McCoy connection. But there were some in the FBI who did investigate McCoy. It's not as if all of the agency have done something here to cover up a case. From my understanding there was not enough evidence to conclude that McCoy is Cooper.

They closed the case because.. And I've said this one before.. The greatest line I've heard on the case was some guy at the "DB Cooper Days" festival (yes, there's such a thing!) who said the guy was in his 40's in the 70's, drank like a fish and smoked like a chimney.. Of course he's dead now!

and, you're absolutely right about the FBI agent.. I forget his name, but he said "When I shot McCoy, I shot Cooper".. But.. If i'm not mistaken, that FBI agent wasn't directly involved in the Cooper case.. Or the McCoy hijacking. He was just part of the team that went to arrest McCoy after his escape from prison.

Originally Posted by DALLASTEXAN!!

I don't really see them being different. They are both thugs in my opinion and one is not better than the other. or maybe they are the same guy IDK.

Assuming that McCoy and Cooper are not the same person as you insinuated: one person didn't care about surviving. McCoy wanted to get the money and not be caught. McCoy was successful in the fact that he got away, at least for a little while. He used countermeasures and evasive actions that IDK that Cooper used. McCoy also jumped over terrain that was survivable and ensure that he survived and kept the money.

Now if they are the same guy, which is possible. McCoy made changes after the Cooper jump. but perhaps those changes exposed him enough to be caught. If they are not the same, then McCoy was a copy cat and made the changes to account for Cooper's mistakes. I always thought that McCoy was the best suspect of all that were brought forward, but I always think that he could have been an opportunistic copy cat criminal as well.

You're looking at it from a high level. you drill down.. There's lots of differences. That's kinda like saying "These were both bank robberies, must have been the same guy".. It's just.. hijackings for ransom are MUCH more rare.

Again.. It's my opinion that I don't BELIEVE that they're the same person. But.. I don't deal in absolutes. There's certainly the CHANCE.. But.. I've given my reasons to back up why I don't think they're the same.

And, 100% I stand by "Where's the money?".. any suspect, someone MUST have a valid answer for that. We know none of the Cooper money ever made it to circulation. one of the biggest misconceptions I see about that part is that people say "Oh, he gambled it in Vegas".. No, no he didn't. Because that money would have made it back to the Federal Reserve, and they have EVERY serial number of those bills. That's how they ID'ed the money from.. Tega Cay or wherever the kid found the money.

They'll say "He spent it overseas".. No, No he didn't. because.. If he had done that.. Remember the Lufthaunsa heist from "Goodfellas"? that heist was of money being sent back to the US from overseas.. To the fed.. Again, it would have wound up at the fed.

Most people have.. I forget the term for it.. But.. They disregard all facts that don't fit their narrative. Don't get me wrong.. We're all guilty of that to some extent.

There's still excellent questions out there about this.. How the hell did the money that was found wind up where it was? There's been dredging theories, which have been pretty well disproven. People have done studies on flotation on how the money could wind up there.. People have theorized he buried the money there to throw people off his trail.. No perfect answers to that question.

[XCalibur]

Originally Posted by Labonte18

They closed the case because.. And I've said this one before.. The greatest line I've heard on the case was some guy at the "DB Cooper Days" festival (yes, there's such a thing!) who said the guy was in his 40's in the 70's, drank like a fish and smoked like a chimney.. Of course he's dead now!

and, you're absolutely right about the FBI agent.. I forget his name, but he said "When I shot McCoy, I shot Cooper".. But.. If i'm not mistaken, that FBI agent wasn't directly involved in the Cooper case.. Or the McCoy hijacking. He was just part of the team that went to arrest McCoy after his escape from prison.



You're looking at it from a high level. you drill down.. There's lots of differences. That's kinda like saying "These were both bank robberies, must have been the same guy".. It's just.. hijackings for ransom are MUCH more rare.

Again.. It's my opinion that I don't BELIEVE that they're the same person. But.. I don't deal in absolutes. There's certainly the CHANCE.. But.. I've given my reasons to back up why I don't think they're the same.

And, 100% I stand by "Where's the money?".. any suspect, someone MUST have a valid answer for that. We know none of the Cooper money ever made it to circulation. one of the biggest misconceptions I see about that part is that people say "Oh, he gambled it in Vegas".. No, no he didn't. Because that money would have made it back to the Federal Reserve, and they have EVERY serial number of those bills. That's how they ID'ed the money from.. Tega Cay or wherever the kid found the money.

They'll say "He spent it overseas".. No, No he didn't. because.. If he had done that.. Remember the Lufthaunsa heist from "Goodfellas"? that heist was of money being sent back to the US from overseas.. To the fed.. Again, it would have wound up at the fed.

Most people have.. I forget the term for it.. But.. They disregard all facts that don't fit their narrative. Don't get me wrong.. We're all guilty of that to some extent.

There's still excellent questions out there about this.. How the hell did the money that was found wind up where it was? There's been dredging theories, which have been pretty well disproven. People have done studies on flotation on how the money could wind up there.. People have theorized he buried the money there to throw people off his trail.. No perfect answers to that question.

I've said many times this case has the many of the same problems as Jack the Ripper. To high profile, to many suspects, not enough hard evidence, and to many crap theories to sort through. And while some intriguing suspects have surfaced, seems there is always a problem with each of them. Not the right age, no connection with the area, no strong motive, ect.

I'm sure its been done, but I think you could probably make a chart of all the suspects and the pros and cons of each one, and then see who has the most pros and the least cons to decide which is the most likely. Whether its McCoy, Lynn doyle Cooper, Kenneth Christiansen or whoever. As far as I know there were serious to semi serious problems with all of them.

The biggest problem for me is that none of the currency resurfaced other than those found on Tina Bar. I am inclined to think it was deliberately placed since they could not come up with a feasible way how it got there accidentally. Then again, since they don't know exactly where Cooper landed, there is no way to know for certain.

I think whether he survived or not, your theory is probably correct. Due to the negotiable American currency statement, the lack of a discernable accent yet clear English, and the familiarity with the Northwest and proximity to Canada, Cooper likely was Canadian and possibly Canadian military. I'm not sure anywhere else really checks all the boxes for his nationality like Canada frankly. Most other English speaking countries have discernable accents. Or at least what would be discernable to Americans.

It might also explain the lack of missing persons reports around the time that could be connected with Cooper. I don't think at the time reports of anyone going missing in Canada would have tricked down into the United States. Such databases didn't really become prevalent until decades later, and I'm still not sure how much info we get out of Canada even today though its surely better than 1971. Of course, Cooper did come off as relatively personable to the flight attendants so he probably didn't give the impression of someone who was a loner or lived in isolation that no one would be aware of him being missing around the time. But he could have easily broke off contact with friends and family some time before the hijacking and then re-established it later, or else come up with a reasonable story about where he was going to be at this time that no one in his life had any reason to doubt.

Would be nice if the truth could finally be discovered about this but have my doubts.

[Labonte18]

Originally Posted by XCalibur

I've said many times this case has the many of the same problems as Jack the Ripper. To high profile, to many suspects, not enough hard evidence, and to many crap theories to sort through. And while some intriguing suspects have surfaced, seems there is always a problem with each of them. Not the right age, no connection with the area, no strong motive, ect.

I'm sure its been done, but I think you could probably make a chart of all the suspects and the pros and cons of each one, and then see who has the most pros and the least cons to decide which is the most likely. Whether its McCoy, Lynn doyle Cooper, Kenneth Christiansen or whoever. As far as I know there were serious to semi serious problems with all of them.

The biggest problem for me is that none of the currency resurfaced other than those found on Tina Bar. I am inclined to think it was deliberately placed since they could not come up with a feasible way how it got there accidentally. Then again, since they don't know exactly where Cooper landed, there is no way to know for certain.

I think whether he survived or not, your theory is probably correct. Due to the negotiable American currency statement, the lack of a discernable accent yet clear English, and the familiarity with the Northwest and proximity to Canada, Cooper likely was Canadian and possibly Canadian military. I'm not sure anywhere else really checks all the boxes for his nationality like Canada frankly. Most other English speaking countries have discernable accents. Or at least what would be discernable to Americans.

It might also explain the lack of missing persons reports around the time that could be connected with Cooper. I don't think at the time reports of anyone going missing in Canada would have tricked down into the United States. Such databases didn't really become prevalent until decades later, and I'm still not sure how much info we get out of Canada even today though its surely better than 1971. Of course, Cooper did come off as relatively personable to the flight attendants so he probably didn't give the impression of someone who was a loner or lived in isolation that no one would be aware of him being missing around the time. But he could have easily broke off contact with friends and family some time before the hijacking and then re-established it later, or else come up with a reasonable story about where he was going to be at this time that no one in his life had any reason to doubt.

Would be nice if the truth could finally be discovered about this but have my doubts.

Yes.. I agree my theory checks the boxes.. But.. That pretty much means nothing other than.. It's a nice little theory. And, quite frankly it's one that is hard to punch holes in. Doesn't mean it's right.

Only thing I'll disagree on the comparison to Jack the Ripper is.. Well.. This case happened in at least what can be called modern times. Now.. 1971 was still quite different. Dude walked to the counter, bought a ticket and walked on the plane with a bomb(maybe) in his briefcase. That wouldn't happen even a few years later. Plus, if it were a decade or so later, they'd have video following him through the airport.

Thank you.. Tina Bar.. I have a brain block always wanting to call that Tega Cay.. What is Tega Cay? Oh, it's a town here in SC, where I am.. Ok, that's why I keep screwing it up.

Just, again, to be devils advocate.. If that money was placed there intentionally.. What are the odds? some kid would be digging in the exact right place and find it? That just seems such a stretch. If ALL the money were there.. I'd agree. But.. To back up your point.. What are the odds that several bundles of the money would all wash up at the exact same place?

Goes back to what you said.. Everything you can make that list of pros and cons and.. Nothing has everything in the 'pro' column. There's cons to everything, and.. Usually.. They're pretty big cons.

One other thing I'll mention.. I don't recall this, but there was some tension between the US and Canada at that time. Not like "We're going to war" but.. Just political tension. So.. That COULD be another check in the pro column on my theory.

[Axl Rose]

Originally Posted by Labonte18

the first one being.. All the FAs who had contact with him said "No, that's not the guy".. Now.. i'll give you this one, because eyewitness ID is.. Just horrendous. Especially under stressful circumstances. Normally, the ID is more "That's the guy" vs "That's not him", but.. I don't rely on this one.

This is true but they also spent a great deal of time with Cooper. All of them saying no is damning for McCoy is Cooper in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Labonte18

The difference between the Cooper and McCoy hijackings, once you drill down into the details, is night and day.

This is where I reject McCoy as Cooper. Cooper was filmesque and McCoy was a comedy of errors.

[Dogface82]

The DB Cooper case has always fascinated me. I found all of the links to articles interesting. I think the lack of identifiable accent and specific phrases should be traced to the source. Negotiable American Currency sounds like a journalist or author. It doesn't sound like spoken language. I found original articles on this site that were paraphrased or edited in later articles to where the meaning changed or was simply confusing. A character in a UM segment reenactment of a different case has been called into doubt by some podcasters. That was the real person and his dialog was totally natural. I always say go back to the original source.

When was the last time anyone tried investigating the original DB Cooper scenes? Imaging has improved exponentially since 1980. Evidence or Coopers remains could be preserved in the ash layers. He probably lost the briefcase in freefall or had to ditch it to maintain stability. He could have survived and made it out. He could also have been fatally injured on a tree where he wasn't visible from the ground or air. For now it remains an American folk legend.

[Labonte18]

Originally Posted by Dogface82

The DB Cooper case has always fascinated me. I found all of the links to articles interesting. I think the lack of identifiable accent and specific phrases should be traced to the source. Negotiable American Currency sounds like a journalist or author. It doesn't sound like spoken language. I found original articles on this site that were paraphrased or edited in later articles to where the meaning changed or was simply confusing. A character in a UM segment reenactment of a different case has been called into doubt by some podcasters. That was the real person and his dialog was totally natural. I always say go back to the original source.

When was the last time anyone tried investigating the original DB Cooper scenes? Imaging has improved exponentially since 1980. Evidence or Coopers remains could be preserved in the ash layers. He probably lost the briefcase in freefall or had to ditch it to maintain stability. He could have survived and made it out. He could also have been fatally injured on a tree where he wasn't visible from the ground or air. For now it remains an American folk legend.

First.. Cooper is a folk hero. He stole $200k basically from an insurance company, got away with it (at least wasn't captured) and didn't hurt anyone doing it. That'll get you put up on a pedestal in this country.

The info that we work with is pretty badly degraded. It's that whole thing that you copy a VHS tape so many times.. It's crap.. Well.. The info about this case has passed down so many times, it's much the same. We all probably quote something that isn't true, but has been told so many times it becomes the truth.. such as "D.B. Cooper" .. He never used that name. Misprint in a newspaper, basically. He bought the ticket as Dan Cooper.

Negotiable American currency certainly isn't a term any American I can think of would use.. Maybe a banker? Even that seems a long shot.

As for the scenes.. That's the other problem. No one knows the scene. Remember, he sent all the crew to the cockpit.. So, no one knows EXACTLY when he left the plane. How long did he freefall? When did he deploy the chute, if he did? Him hitting at terminal velocity vs him floating down via parachute.. Even if they DID know where he jumped, could be a wide area.

The only evidence ever recovered, other than the few thousand dollars at Tina Bay.. Was the placard mounted near the rear 'door' he jumped from with instructions on how to operate it. and that was, as I recall, just a laminated piece of paper, which could have been blown miles during its fall and even more after it hit the ground.

The plane was tailed by fighter jets, but.. It was dark. They never saw him jump. There's the FBI's theory on where he landed.. And.. Every goober looking at the case has another theory.. And.. You can't prove or disprove any of them, really.


FWIW.. If he did go splat.. Even without Mt Saint Helens in the equation.. So, let's say he landed outside that area of destruction.. I can't see anything being left today. The chute would have totally degraded, as would the money. There'd be his remains.. Which most likely would be scattered quite a bit by wildlife, and if not that.. Flooding/snow/weather in the area over the course of 53 years. There'd be bones, scattered.. There'd be a belt buckle.. Some of the metal pieces from the chute.. But.. That's the very definition of needle in a haystack. Basically saying "Go find a belt buckle laying somewhere on the ground in the entirety of Washington state."

to me.. There's two ways to solve this. Maybe a few more.

1) We find someone who went missing around that time and has never turned up and can be placed in the area or plausibly could have been the hijacker. This.. Won't SOLVE it as there'll always be conspiracy people out there.

2) Someone pulls out the bag of money and says "I found this in my dad's stuff".. This one.. Would be pretty definitive.


FWIW.. The Tina Bay money.. It was only one or two stacks, I believe.. I'd have to look it up again. There's also a strong possibility that he lost that bundle during the jump or while still in the plane. If it was two, it'd.. Still be a bit odd for them to both wind up in the same place, pending on when they were dropped. just chaos theory there.

[Dogface82]

I agree with you. I use DB Cooper because that is how he is commonly known. Tina Bay the money site on the Columbia River is the only real crime or evidence site. How the money was bundled in the originally is a factor on how it survives impact. Coupled with direction of flight, airspeed and altitude it narrows it down some. Add in weather data and possible opening altitudes. Todays computers can run a lot of models. While the information on his accent is interesting it's not definitive. There are pockets of "generic accents" all over the US. The military trained intructors to speak with less of a regional accent. What if the common phrase "Dollars, American" was replaced by a journalist with the phrase "Negotiable American currency". This is America. There is always somebody up for this type of search. I was just wondering if any effort had been made. McCoy had a history of migraines. If he was Cooper the anxiety and difficulty concentrating could account for mistakes made in the McCoy hijacking. The possibilities are enormous.

[XCalibur]

Originally Posted by Labonte18

Thank you.. Tina Bar.. I have a brain block always wanting to call that Tega Cay.. What is Tega Cay? Oh, it's a town here in SC, where I am.. Ok, that's why I keep screwing it up.

Just, again, to be devils advocate.. If that money was placed there intentionally.. What are the odds? some kid would be digging in the exact right place and find it? That just seems such a stretch. If ALL the money were there.. I'd agree. But.. To back up your point.. What are the odds that several bundles of the money would all wash up at the exact same place?

You know, having given this some thought, the money itself is an interesting aspect to the case that merits a lot of discussion

One of the foremost arguments Cooper did not survive and the money was lost is that none of it turned up in circulation.

But how strong is this argument really? Lets say Cooper survived and spent the money. What are the odds that the money indeed has gone to various merchants or financial institutions and is even still out there and has simply gone undetected all these years?

To be honest, I don't even know if I know enough to even calculate the odds of that. Given the fact that there are millions upon millions of financial institutions and merchants across the world where it could have been spent and I'm sure a great many of them are not exactly checking serial numbers, in fact I believe if I remember correctly that banks stopped watching for this currency a few years after the heist, it certainly seems feasible.

Then again, if I recall correctly these bills provided to Cooper were all 20's, and they were all printed in the late 1960's. The ransom was $200,000, so that means there were a total of 10,000 bills. If you subtract the ones found on Tina Bar, there are a little more than 9700 unaccounted for. At first glance, it seems plausible 9700 bills could go undetected among the billions out there changing hands.

you also have to take into account how many bills from the 1960's that would resemble these bills are still out there in circulation. I personally have never seen one, but I'm not really rich and don't typically carry a lot of cash. I do know that they changed the design in the late 1990's or early 2000's to a larger portrait of Jackson and that's mostly what you see today. And also I seem to recall that once bills are worn they are sent back to the Fed for shredding. I imagine they check and decommission the serial numbers at that point. So given that none of them have made it back to the Fed apparently, that's a red flag they have not turned up.

But, people have made pretty good arguments that the bills could not have been on Tina Bar since 1971 when the hijacking took place.

One of many reasons this continues to be a frustrating case.

[Labonte18]

Originally Posted by XCalibur

You know, having given this some thought, the money itself is an interesting aspect to the case that merits a lot of discussion

100%. "Where's the money" and variations about the money are the lynchpin. Even if we disagree on the details of the answers or lack of answers to that. The money is the key.

One of the foremost arguments Cooper did not survive and the money was lost is that none of it turned up in circulation.

But how strong is this argument really? Lets say Cooper survived and spent the money. What are the odds that the money indeed has gone to various merchants or financial institutions and is even still out there and has simply gone undetected all these years?

It's very strong. The chances of it still being in circulation are zero. All money was redesigned back in the 90's and those old bills.. When is the last time you saw one of them? ALL those bills were sent back to the reserve for destruction. The only time you MIGHT run into one of them.. They are, after all, still legal tender, would be if someone found a bill stuck under a floorboard in their house or some weird situation like that.

Of course, then it gets a little dicey pending on whether you consider that "in circulation". I'd define circulation as out there being spent, and.. A $20 stuck behind grandma's picture on the mantle isn't being spent.

The average life of a $20 is about 8 years. that's how long it stays in circulation before it is worn enough to be replaced. Remember that, as I recall, it was all $20's

There's ZERO chance that the money is 'circulating' today. Is there a chance that it's in a duffel bag buried somewhere? Sure. There's also the SMALL chance, because, I don't know how the fed did things back in 1971.. Today, a bill would be scanned when returned to the fed and a computer would alert on the bill. Did they have that tech in 1971? I could see SOME of the bills slipping through, but, not 10,000 of them.

To be honest, I don't even know if I know enough to even calculate the odds of that. Given the fact that there are millions upon millions of financial institutions and merchants across the world where it could have been spent and I'm sure a great many of them are not exactly checking serial numbers, in fact I believe if I remember correctly that banks stopped watching for this currency a few years after the heist, it certainly seems feasible.

Banks may have stopped. The fed wouldn't. And.. again, an unanswered question is what tech the fed had at the time. People are fallible, but.. Computers would catch it.

Then again, if I recall correctly these bills provided to Cooper were all 20's, and they were all printed in the late 1960's. The ransom was $200,000, so that means there were a total of 10,000 bills. If you subtract the ones found on Tina Bar, there are a little more than 9700 unaccounted for. At first glance, it seems plausible 9700 bills could go undetected among the billions out there changing hands.

And.. This is where I have no problem agreeing to disagree. I think it's unlikely, though.. I will give you that.. It certainly is plausible. Of course.. It's plausible that I'll win the powerball tomorrow night (or whenever the drawing is) but.. Since I have no intention to buy a ticket.. It's REALLY unliklely.

you also have to take into account how many bills from the 1960's that would resemble these bills are still out there in circulation. I personally have never seen one, but I'm not really rich and don't typically carry a lot of cash. I do know that they changed the design in the late 1990's or early 2000's to a larger portrait of Jackson and that's mostly what you see today. And also I seem to recall that once bills are worn they are sent back to the Fed for shredding. I imagine they check and decommission the serial numbers at that point. So given that none of them have made it back to the Fed apparently, that's a red flag they have not turned up.

But, people have made pretty good arguments that the bills could not have been on Tina Bar since 1971 when the hijacking took place.

One of many reasons this continues to be a frustrating case.

Oh, well, I answered this above. Yeah. The redesign.. And depending on your definition of 'in circulation'.

Just as an example. In my wallet right now.. I have $12. A ten and two singles. I don't carry much cash..

The singles are a series 2017 and 2021

The $10 is 2017.

Now.. Of course, that's a small sample size, but.. It does speak to how quickly money is removed from circulation. Not only that.. Think of inflation. The $20 probably lasted a little longer back in the day.. The old saying that $20 doesn't go as far as it used to certainly applies in multiple ways. I'd bet the bills lasted longer back then because they weren't used as much.

But.. Then again, I suppose we could posit that we don't use near as much cash nowadays, so, maybe it didn't really last longer then. Meaning how long until the bills were worn out.

All that money would have left circulation, my opinion, by the mid 80's at the latest. Many of the bills were already 2-5 years old at that point, so, probably before that. Not considering the outliers that were stuck in some kid's piggybank or similar.

As for the argument they couldn't have been at Tina Bar.. Ok. So. Let's go with that. Now.. My thought would be.. Maybe a heavy rain washed them into the river which then deposited them. Which.. Could have happened anytime in the ~9 years between the jump and their discovery. Perhaps they were in the duffel bag, it finally deteriorated enough for them to come out. Whether the duffel was still on him hanging in a tree, splatted on the ground or whatever.

To me, the argument that someone intentionally put them there and this kid just happened to find them.. Is even harder to believe than they wound up there and the kid happened to find them. Remember as well. These weren't pristine bills the kid found. It was.. Pieces of money.

The problem.. that's STILL a hell of a coincidence for the money to wind up there and be found. I can't deny that. And.. How does the money get there naturally?