Do you think O.J. Simpson was guilty of killing Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown Simpson?

[DALLASTEXAN!!]

Originally Posted by Clockwork

I can't remember why Reich came in. I know Kelly was hurt a lot those playoffs. Reich was the guy in the big comeback game against Houston. But the reason he came in had to be some sort of injury if I recall. Either way, it doesn't matter, Dallas won that game 52-17 and it would have been 59-17 if Leon Lett didn't hot dog at the goal line.

Jeff Hostetler is the most well known QB to do this, although it wasn't in the Super Bowl. Phil Simms - who is close to being a Hall of Famer in my mind - got hurt in a game before Christmas time against Buffalo. Hostetler comes in and they lose that game, but he finishes the season, plays in every playoff game and ironically he plays in the Super Bowl where they beat Buffalo.

But yeah, no one filled in during the game and won that I recall.

Of all the backup fairytales I’ve seen I think hostetler is the most remarkable, yet it’s a classic case where a great defense and coaching job carried them, not unlike the 2001 Patriots. Hostetler was not that good and did not have much time to adapt. A lot of credit goes to parcels and bellichek for basically controlling the game clock to keep the scoring down. Even then hostetler shouldn’t have won the Super Bowl, Buffalo more or less lost it in my opinion. That was their one chance to get a ring. I thought Buffalo were the better team.

Yeah reich came in vs. Dallas in 92-93 because Kelly perhaps re-injured his knee on a play where he was sacked by ken Norton Jr. Of corse Kelly probably had enough by that point. That game was one of the most relentless defensive performances I’ve ever seen in a super bowl, it’s overshadowed to some degree because Dallas’ star players were all on offense.

As you said, that was the same year that reich started a wild card game against Houston and led Buffalo to that ridiculous comeback including a Bills TD that would not have counted in today’s replay era. Houston had beaten Buffalo the week before 27-3 in a game that Kelly left injured. The result forced a rematch with frank reich at QB instead of Kelly. Houston always had good teams that found new ways to lose in the playoffs.

[DALLASTEXAN!!]

Originally Posted by Clockwork

Outside of Nicole and Ron and their families the biggest victim of this whole thing was easily Mark Fuhrman. The fact there were tapes of him using racist language in which he was doing for someone's fictional screenplay is probably the biggest thing that got OJ off the hook. Fuhrman's mistake is that he used the "Fifth Amendment" during his cross examination. I can understand looking back, as it was turning into a circus and turning into more of a trial and an attack on him, and not OJ, so I am sure he didn't want to say anything that would get twisted around. However, in hindsight it was not a good idea.

There were black co-workers that have come to Fuhrman's defense saying he is not a racist over the years. None of that mattered, the defense played on the emotions of the mostly black jury and even just planting a thought in their heads that he could have framed OJ was enough. Even though they probably were going to acquit OJ anyway. The problem is, there was no way Fuhrman could have pulled off tampering with evidence. He simply just didn't have enough time to do it even if he had wanted to. And one last thing he did not know, he did not know if OJ had an alibi. Imagine going to the trouble to plant something making it look like OJ had done it only to find out OJ was with several people a couple of hours away all night.

I always found it funny that they think the LAPD would frame OJ. This is a guy who got away with spousal abuse for years and managed to talk himself out of his own wife calling 911 on him. Fuhrman was one of the cops over the years who responded to a domestic violence call from Nicole. For a guy who apparently was "framed" by the cops, they sure as heck let him off the hook over and over.

Furhman def became a side show which is exactly what OJ’s legal team needed. For me this was a theatre and is a case where trial by jury was front and center. If you create enough doubt and make the jury feel sorry for the defendant then you can win a case, even if the prosecution has good evidence. It wasn’t only the allegations of racism, for me the biggest memory I have is Christopher Darden making OJ put on the glove. To me that was more damning than anything mark furhman did and that was self induced by Darden. Of corse the prosecution could have done a lot better to clinch the conviction.

There have been many cases opposite where there are innocent that are convicted with less evidence and in retrospect we are left wondering how the state managed to do it. We’ve seen it in many cases that were actually featured on UM, as it was one of the main themes of the show to revisit high profile circumstance convictions.

LA county circa 1990’s (and long before then) there were often minorities or poor who did not receive justice because the system was tilted heavily in the favor of law enforcement and access to good legal counsel was hard to come by. It still could be a systemic issue today in that county, but I don’t know. The jurors knew this and right or wrong they are human and have both conscious and subconscious emotional bias. The irony of this case is that OJ’s local and National celebrity status first and foremost gave him a chance at a fair trial and subsequently got him acquitted even though he should have been convicted. The state had to really work and earn this one and they couldn’t get the job done. Unfortunately for Nicole and Ron, they did not receive justice.

[Clockwork]

Originally Posted by DALLASTEXAN!!

Furhman def became a side show which is exactly what OJ’s legal team needed. For me this was a theatre and is a case where trial by jury was front and center. If you create enough doubt and make the jury feel sorry for the defendant then you can win a case, even if the prosecution has good evidence. It wasn’t only the allegations of racism, for me the biggest memory I have is Christopher Darden making OJ put on the glove. To me that was more damning than anything mark furhman did and that was self induced by Darden. Of corse the prosecution could have done a lot better to clinch the conviction.

There have been many cases opposite where there are innocent that are convicted with less evidence and in retrospect we are left wondering how the state managed to do it. We’ve seen it in many cases that were actually featured on UM, as it was one of the main themes of the show to revisit high profile circumstance convictions.

LA county circa 1990’s (and long before then) there were often minorities or poor who did not receive justice because the system was tilted heavily in the favor of law enforcement and access to good legal counsel was hard to come by. It still could be a systemic issue today in that county, but I don’t know. The jurors knew this and right or wrong they are human and have both conscious and subconscious emotional bias. The irony of this case is that OJ’s local and National celebrity status first and foremost gave him a chance at a fair trial and subsequently got him acquitted even though he should have been convicted. The state had to really work and earn this one and they couldn’t get the job done. Unfortunately for Nicole and Ron, they did not receive justice.

I guess in all fairness to Darden, the defense was going to get OJ to put on the glove one way or another. They just convinced the prosecution to have it be their idea rather than the defense's. It was actually pretty clever. But they had prepared for this too. OJ did not take his arthritis medication for a couple of weeks and it caused his hands to swell up a bit. Not to mention, he's an actor, he knew how to work the cameras, he knew how to make it seem like the glove couldn't "fit". I mean, even with that other rubber glove underneath (which didn't help make it fit) you could still tell OJ wasn't trying to pull the glove on properly.

I agree, despite everything else, everyone can see a glove not fitting on a suspect's hand. That was probably the key.

Originally Posted by DALLASTEXAN!!

Of all the backup fairytales I’ve seen I think hostetler is the most remarkable, yet it’s a classic case where a great defense and coaching job carried them, not unlike the 2001 Patriots. Hostetler was not that good and did not have much time to adapt. A lot of credit goes to parcels and bellichek for basically controlling the game clock to keep the scoring down. Even then hostetler shouldn’t have won the Super Bowl, Buffalo more or less lost it in my opinion. That was their one chance to get a ring. I thought Buffalo were the better team.

Yeah reich came in vs. Dallas in 92-93 because Kelly perhaps re-injured his knee on a play where he was sacked by ken Norton Jr. Of corse Kelly probably had enough by that point. That game was one of the most relentless defensive performances I’ve ever seen in a super bowl, it’s overshadowed to some degree because Dallas’ star players were all on offense.

As you said, that was the same year that reich started a wild card game against Houston and led Buffalo to that ridiculous comeback including a Bills TD that would not have counted in today’s replay era. Houston had beaten Buffalo the week before 27-3 in a game that Kelly left injured. The result forced a rematch with frank reich at QB instead of Kelly. Houston always had good teams that found new ways to lose in the playoffs.

Yes, the Beebe touchdown. They still may have gotten a touchdown anyway even if Beebe didn't step out of bonds. That only made it 35-10. There is still no way on heaven and earth that Houston should have lost that game. They had some horrible, horrible clock management throughout that 3rd and 4th quarter. They should have just ran the ball on every play to keep the clock moving. Maybe get a drive out of it, maybe some points. This was just textbook awful.

[DALLASTEXAN!!]

Originally Posted by Clockwork

I guess in all fairness to Darden, the defense was going to get OJ to put on the glove one way or another. They just convinced the prosecution to have it be their idea rather than the defense's. It was actually pretty clever. But they had prepared for this too. OJ did not take his arthritis medication for a couple of weeks and it caused his hands to swell up a bit. Not to mention, he's an actor, he knew how to work the cameras, he knew how to make it seem like the glove couldn't "fit". I mean, even with that other rubber glove underneath (which didn't help make it fit) you could still tell OJ wasn't trying to pull the glove on properly.

I agree, despite everything else, everyone can see a glove not fitting on a suspect's hand. That was probably the key.



Yes, the Beebe touchdown. They still may have gotten a touchdown anyway even if Beebe didn't step out of bonds. That only made it 35-10. There is still no way on heaven and earth that Houston should have lost that game. They had some horrible, horrible clock management throughout that 3rd and 4th quarter. They should have just ran the ball on every play to keep the clock moving. Maybe get a drive out of it, maybe some points. This was just textbook awful.

The key is that the beebe TD was a quick strike. So that would have lent to more time being taken off the clock if the rule was enforced, with that said that’s a small observation. And as you pointed out about Houston not running the ball, absolutely it was their undoing. That’s why Buddy Ryan punched the offensive coach the next season. There’s a good documentary out there about the 1993 oilers. I think it’s from the football life series.

As far as OJ, I was put off by it all in real time. I did see the oj made in America documentary and it was really good. I also enjoyed the 30/30 episode that showcased the night that OJ ran from the police. I remember that night well. I was very upset they went away from the nba finals.

[Labonte18]

Originally Posted by DALLASTEXAN!!

Of all the backup fairytales I’ve seen I think hostetler is the most remarkable, yet it’s a classic case where a great defense and coaching job carried them, not unlike the 2001 Patriots. Hostetler was not that good and did not have much time to adapt. A lot of credit goes to parcels and bellichek for basically controlling the game clock to keep the scoring down. Even then hostetler shouldn’t have won the Super Bowl, Buffalo more or less lost it in my opinion. That was their one chance to get a ring. I thought Buffalo were the better team.

Yeah reich came in vs. Dallas in 92-93 because Kelly perhaps re-injured his knee on a play where he was sacked by ken Norton Jr. Of corse Kelly probably had enough by that point. That game was one of the most relentless defensive performances I’ve ever seen in a super bowl, it’s overshadowed to some degree because Dallas’ star players were all on offense.

As you said, that was the same year that reich started a wild card game against Houston and led Buffalo to that ridiculous comeback including a Bills TD that would not have counted in today’s replay era. Houston had beaten Buffalo the week before 27-3 in a game that Kelly left injured. The result forced a rematch with frank reich at QB instead of Kelly. Houston always had good teams that found new ways to lose in the playoffs.

I'll just pop in to give a little love to Hostetler. Being a Washington fan, he played his last (and worst) year for us, and his 'best' was as an NFC East rival, so.. Hey.. If I have some respect for the guy, it's earned.

He certainly wasn't a superstar.. But for the era.. He was solid. Consistent. Always a positive TD to INT. QBR around mid 80's. Nothing spectacular, but never bad. Always wins about 2 of every 3 games.

His problem, he didn't become a starter until his age 32 season with the Raiders (Not withstanding the two years he started a majority of games in NY due to Simms' injuries).. He was kinda screwed over by the free agency situation in the NFL at the time.

So, I'd call him.. Probably better than you remember.

To your point about the Oilers finding ways to lose. How about the Chiefs of the same era? The Schottenheimer years.

I.. Might just put Marty up there as the greatest NFL coach to never win a Super Bowl. and that's a pretty crowded field, too. Dan Reeves, Marv Levy.. Jerry Glanville. Sorry.. I just like bringing Jerry up. Anyone leaving tickets for Elvis at Will-Call..



And.. as far as the on-topic part of this.. Someone mentioned a while back that in the ~30 years since this, there hasn't been another suspect IDed.. Well.. Someone mentioned the mob a bit back. There's plenty of theories.. It's just.. They're all mostly just complete BS.

[cordwainer1453]

OJ could have had Lionel Hutz as his attorney and the jury still would not have convicted him.

[Stratego]

He's 100% guilty and did it himself. There were 108 exhibits of DNA evidence against him.

[infinityluxe]

Originally Posted by cordwainer1453

OJ could have had Lionel Hutz as his attorney and the jury still would not have convicted him.

Why do you think that is?

Growing up as a kid in the 90s OJ was seen as a sell-out to black people.

I think the Rodney King situation helped him a lot in his case personally.

OJ was not beloved by black people and he still isn't. I think OJ benefited because the case became bigger than him. The case became about a black man being wrongfully accused of killing a white woman (and man). His counsel was able to use this to their advantage.

I'm black and I 1000% believe OJ got away with murder. I remember my grandparents watching the case on CNN when I was a kid. Everyone had an opinion.

OJ got away because the police were incompetent in their investigation and America was fed up with injustice and LAPD had a horrible reputation for racism.

[Clockwork]

Originally Posted by infinityluxe

Why do you think that is?

Growing up as a kid in the 90s OJ was seen as a sell-out to black people.

I think the Rodney King situation helped him a lot in his case personally.

OJ was not beloved by black people and he still isn't. I think OJ benefited because the case became bigger than him. The case became about a black man being wrongfully accused of killing a white woman (and man). His counsel was able to use this to their advantage.

I'm black and I 1000% believe OJ got away with murder. I remember my grandparents watching the case on CNN when I was a kid. Everyone had an opinion.

OJ got away because the police were incompetent in their investigation and America was fed up with injustice and LAPD had a horrible reputation for racism.

I think what happened is that there was an opportunity. One of the jurors herself said it in "Made in America" the documentary. This was about revenge for Rodney King. She on camera openly made no bones about it, and even just shrugged when the interviewer asked if it was right to think that way.

So while OJ was not exactly what you would want to call a Civil Rights hero, I think he all of the sudden became that guy to use for something like this. Even begrudgingly. They may not have liked OJ initially, but I think the idea of Nicole being married to him at one point angered many in the black community - and the jury - even more. At least that is the idea that Marcia Clark felt. She introduced the audio calls from Nicole calling 911 detailing the abuse from OJ and she noticed that the jury didn't bat an eyelash, not even the women, when they heard her pain. She knew then they were in trouble and it would be an uphill battle to convict him. They still screwed up to some degree with the prosecution, but it still wasn't enough to lose.

George Stinney Jr. comes to mind as someone who got a raw deal 50 years earlier, and was wrongly executed likely based on his skin colour. I don't know how much stuff like that stuck in the jury's mind, or if it was more just Rodney King for being more recent. Either way, I hope OJ in some way thanked King.

[Labonte18]

Motherf***er

https://www.wyff4.com/article/oj-sim...daugh/43176542

[Clockwork]

Originally Posted by Labonte18

Motherf***er

https://www.wyff4.com/article/oj-sim...daugh/43176542

I am going to hate myself for saying this, but why is OJ so..................likeable? Okay, I said it. I mean, part of me just wants to shoot the breeze and talk football with him. Yeah, yeah, I know, go ahead and say it. I get it. Hammer away at me.........

Yes I think OJ was guilty too.

[Labonte18]

Originally Posted by Clockwork

I am going to hate myself for saying this, but why is OJ so..................likeable? Okay, I said it. I mean, part of me just wants to shoot the breeze and talk football with him. Yeah, yeah, I know, go ahead and say it. I get it. Hammer away at me.........

Yes I think OJ was guilty too.

I won't crucify you for it.. But.. I will say that I certainly hope 'likable' isn't the FIRST thing that comes to mind.

Where i'll back you up on it.. any of us old enough to remember him from the 60's to 80's.. He WAS very likable. We saw him playing football, being an announcer, acting in some.. Good movies (Towering Inferno and the first Naked Gun).. He was in all those Hertz commercials.. Some with his mother, who seemed to be an astoundingly sweet woman as well.

He was.. very likable at the time. If you were alive at the time and remember that. I won't fault you for remembering how you felt about him then.

but.. Taking the act of the murders out of the equation.. What he's done.. Hiding money from the Goldmans.. Pirating TV.. "If I Did It".. The Vegas robbery.. Him daring to comment on the Murdauigh case.

I stand by my gut, original, single word description above.. Which was the first thing *I* thought when I read that and watched his video.

[Clockwork]

Originally Posted by Labonte18

I won't crucify you for it.. But.. I will say that I certainly hope 'likable' isn't the FIRST thing that comes to mind.

Where i'll back you up on it.. any of us old enough to remember him from the 60's to 80's.. He WAS very likable. We saw him playing football, being an announcer, acting in some.. Good movies (Towering Inferno and the first Naked Gun).. He was in all those Hertz commercials.. Some with his mother, who seemed to be an astoundingly sweet woman as well.

He was.. very likable at the time. If you were alive at the time and remember that. I won't fault you for remembering how you felt about him then.

but.. Taking the act of the murders out of the equation.. What he's done.. Hiding money from the Goldmans.. Pirating TV.. "If I Did It".. The Vegas robbery.. Him daring to comment on the Murdauigh case.

I stand by my gut, original, single word description above.. Which was the first thing *I* thought when I read that and watched his video.

Oh I agree. It is the old sentimental stuff that gets me. The Naked Gun movies for sure, the 3rd one came out the year of the murders. The great career as a running back, the jovial personality of him, all of that shines memories on the pre-1994 OJ. Perhaps there is a part of me that wishes that's all there was to him.

It is strange hearing him talk about a murder court case.

[thinwhiteduke74]

The Towering Inferno is a good movie? Down is up!

[Labonte18]

Originally Posted by thinwhiteduke74

The Towering Inferno is a good movie? Down is up!

Good.. Not great. It's got a 72% on Rotten Tomatoes.. Steve McQueen, Paul Newman.. Highest grossing film of 1974.

I'd say you'd be the outlier in not liking it.

I mean, it's no Baseketball, but.. It'll kill a couple of hours on a rainy Saturday.