Were the Monkees doomed the moment the show was cast?

[Dick York was Darrin]

Originally Posted by opus

A bit confused by how 4 guys who had lifetime success as The Monkees were "doomed"

They didn't have a "lifetime success." They were typecast into a lifetime nostalgia act, that occasionally gave them a little money.

[Dick York was Darrin]

Originally Posted by PracTz

I don't think Mr. Dolenz would have pleaded with either Mr. Nesmith or Mr. Tork to tour with them after Mr. Jones's passing if he didn't think they didn't each have talents that contributed to the sound.

Oh, and I DO think they also added good comedic elements to the show.

Mickey Dolenz was shackled to Tork and Nesmith because they were all typecast as Monkees. And the Monkees was about the only real stream of revenue open to Dolenz. Without the Monkees, Dolenz pretty much has zero.

[icecream]

Originally Posted by Dick York was Darrin

They didn't have a "lifetime success." They were typecast into a lifetime nostalgia act, that occasionally gave them a little money.

Hogwash. The Monkees was one of the most popular 60s bands. You starting a thread like this bashing Michael Nesmith (Michael, not Peter like you said in opening post) shortly after his death is in poor taste.

[Dick York was Darrin]

Originally Posted by GentlemanJim

What I would hope everyone would be mindful of, while it started out being a TV show about 4 young musicians, the success of the music transformed it into 4 pop stars with a TV show. Impressionable youth would have it no other way. Then, as the "scandal" unfolded no one was going to continue watching the TV show, because just claiming you were a Monkees fan guaranteed you would be the target of ridicule. There is no way the TV show could have continued.

The only recipe for survival was to resurrect the music aspect. And Nesmith and Tork were the most capable of the 4 to make a go of that. The only path forward included them out of necessity

I don't buy the whole "Nesmith and Tork were great musicians" stuff. Neither one of them ever wrote a good song in their lives. Tork's claim to fame is that he knew Neil Young.

So both Tork and Nesmith knew how to play the guitar. And Tork knew how to play a banjo. As far as can be told, neither one of them were more talented than the local High School music teacher.

[Dick York was Darrin]

Originally Posted by icecream

Hogwash. The Monkees was one of the most popular 60s bands. You starting a thread like this bashing Michael Nesmith (Michael, not Peter like you said in opening post) shortly after his death is in poor taste.

I didn't start this thread after his death. I started the thread before his death. Look at the date of the original post.

[GentlemanJim]

Looking back with hindsight, (with benefit of the knowledge that the "band" was fake) I wonder if the decision to call them the "Monkees" was a satirical poke at the old adage about locking 100 monkeys in a room with 100 typewriters?

[icecream]

Originally Posted by Dick York was Darrin

I didn't start this thread after his death. I started the thread before his death. Look at the date of the original post.

Maybe it was started before his death, but you've repeated your point you hate Michael Nesmith and Peter Tork plenty of times now after his death.

[GentlemanJim]

Originally Posted by Dick York was Darrin

I don't buy the whole "Nesmith and Tork were great musicians" stuff. Neither one of them ever wrote a good song in their lives. Tork's claim to fame is that he knew Neil Young.
.

I don''t see how you are making the leap from my statement that the two were the most capable of the 4....to your christening them to be "great musicians"?


The show NEVER would have been the success it was, without the music success. The music was largely the work of Boyce & Hart and a group of studio musicians now known as the Wrecking crew.. But kiddies listening to those tunes, and following the pied piper to the television dial...made the show what it was.

When the hoax was exposed, the Monkess imploded. Nobody wanted to be associated with the fraud.

Dolenz and Jones were completely incapable of doing anything to salvage anything from the smoldering wreckage. Nesmith and Tork had some ability plus initiative...and for the latter they deserve credit.

Roger McGuinn and David Crosby (nor any other if the then "great" talents in the industry) were not going to come in and risk their reputations to fix the fiasco. So it was either Tork and Nesmith, or nobody.

Hope that clears things up.

[Dick York was Darrin]

Originally Posted by icecream

Maybe it was started before his death, but you've repeated your point you hate Michael Nesmith and Peter Tork plenty of times now after his death.

Neither Tork, nor Nesmith, were well beloved. Except by you I guess.

[icecream]

Originally Posted by Dick York was Darrin

Neither Tork, nor Nesmith, were well beloved. Except by you I guess.

The Monkees were a well liked group as a whole. You don't see how repeatedly bashing someone right after their death is wrong and tasteless.

[Dick York was Darrin]

Originally Posted by GentlemanJim

I don''t see how you are making the leap from my statement that the two were the most capable of the 4....to your christening them to be "great musicians"?


The show NEVER would have been the success it was, without the music success. The music was largely the work of Boyce & Hart and a group of studio musicians now known as the Wrecking crew.. But kiddies listening to those tunes, and following the pied piper to the television dial...made the show what it was.

When the hoax was exposed, the Monkess imploded. Nobody wanted to be associated with the fraud.

Dolenz and Jones were completely incapable of doing anything to salvage anything from the smoldering wreckage. Nesmith and Tork had some ability plus initiative...and for the latter they deserve credit.

Roger McGuinn and David Crosby (nor any other if the then "great" talents in the industry) were not going to come in and risk their reputations to fix the fiasco. So it was either Tork and Nesmith, or nobody.

Hope that clears things up.

Well I certainly don't think recasting Tork or Nesmith was an option. They had the cast and that was that.

My main gripe with Tork and Nesmith is the appearance that they bit the hand that fed them. They were given a great gig, and were unhappy they couldn't be the real thing. So, they tried to force it and the whole thing collapsed.

I suppose there are alternative interpretations of what happened, and I accept that. But I just can't see how Jones and Dolenz weren't victimized by how things went down. They were happy to get the great gig and didn't want to rock the boat.

[GentlemanJim]

Originally Posted by Dick York was Darrin

I suppose there are alternative interpretations of what happened, and I accept that. But I just can't see how Jones and Dolenz weren't victimized by how things went down. They were happy to get the great gig and didn't want to rock the boat.

Not to "bash" you, but how old are you? Were you around at the time?

There was considerable disgrace. Being a Monkees fan was similar to being a wrestling fan when first finding out it wasn't real.

Just so you will know...I am not a particularly big fan of Nesmith's musical tastes. His "Sunny Girl Friend" composition on the Headquarters album was a lot like fingernails on a chalk board to my teenage ears.

But, He and Tork are deserving accolades for their willingness to roll up their sleeves, and unclog the sewer, so to speak.

If you are thinking that the TV Show could have continued with Dolenz, Jones, and two stooges willing to cooperate, I believe you are dead wrong. The music scandal killed the lightning in the bottle aspect....and the TV show cancellation was collateral damage.

As I recall, at the time of their ascendance, Nesmith was seen as the "cool" guy, he had the hat and side burns. Davey was the "cute" guy who made the young girls swoon.
Dolenz was whimsical and dangerous (from a comedic aspect), and Tork was the dud, he was the straight man at the peril of the others......and he could play keyboards

So, you take away the "cool" guy, and (imo) you have a problem

[Dick York was Darrin]

Originally Posted by GentlemanJim

Not to "bash" you, but how old are you? Were you around at the time?

There was considerable disgrace. Being a Monkees fan was similar to being a wrestling fan when first finding out it wasn't real.

Just so you will know...I am not a particularly big fan of Nesmith's musical tastes. His "Sunny Girl Friend" composition on the Headquarters album was a lot like fingernails on a chalk board to my teenage ears.

But, He and Tork are deserving accolades for their willingness to roll up their sleeves, and unclog the sewer, so to speak.

If you are thinking that the TV Show could have continued with Dolenz, Jones, and two stooges willing to cooperate, I believe you are dead wrong. The music scandal killed the lightning in the bottle aspect....and the TV show cancellation was collateral damage.

As I recall, at the time of their ascendance, Nesmith was seen as the "cool" guy, he had the hat and side burns. Davey was the "cute" guy who made the young girls swoon.
Dolenz was whimsical and dangerous (from a comedic aspect), and Tork was the dud, he was the straight man at the peril of the others......and he could play keyboards

So, you take away the "cool" guy, and (imo) you have a problem

How old am I? I can imagine you can infer from my participation on this board, and in this thread, to be old enough to remember the events first hand.

Let's put it this way. I remember cutting the 45 of "I'm not your stepping stone" out of a cereal box and playing it on my record player.

Though I do have to admit, my understanding of the entertainment industry at the time was that of a person who's age at the time could be measured by the counting of the fingers on both hands. LOL

[Dick York was Darrin]

Originally Posted by GentlemanJim

Not to "bash" you, but how old are you? Were you around at the time?

There was considerable disgrace. Being a Monkees fan was similar to being a wrestling fan when first finding out it wasn't real.

Just so you will know...I am not a particularly big fan of Nesmith's musical tastes. His "Sunny Girl Friend" composition on the Headquarters album was a lot like fingernails on a chalk board to my teenage ears.

But, He and Tork are deserving accolades for their willingness to roll up their sleeves, and unclog the sewer, so to speak.

If you are thinking that the TV Show could have continued with Dolenz, Jones, and two stooges willing to cooperate, I believe you are dead wrong. The music scandal killed the lightning in the bottle aspect....and the TV show cancellation was collateral damage.

As I recall, at the time of their ascendance, Nesmith was seen as the "cool" guy, he had the hat and side burns. Davey was the "cute" guy who made the young girls swoon.
Dolenz was whimsical and dangerous (from a comedic aspect), and Tork was the dud, he was the straight man at the peril of the others......and he could play keyboards

So, you take away the "cool" guy, and (imo) you have a problem

As for Nesmith being "seen" as the cool guy, I'd say he was "marketed" as the cool guy.

Every single thing about that band was created by the producers. There was nothing cool about Nesmith at all. He was a knucklehead from day one. But that was the product created by the producers.

The problem was, the Monkees suddenly believed they were what they were marketed as. They believed their own, pre-fabbed, publicity. And they got too big to control, and it all collapsed.

Yes, I agree that the "scandal" got too big for the farce to continue. My beef was Torks and Nesmith's over-inflated egos, which derived from fantasy in their own minds. They had nothing of substance to offer, other than the pre-fabbed persona's created for them by the producers. If it weren't for the Monkees, we would not even know they existed. And it was all handed to them. It did not derive from their own talent, but the marketing talent and machine of a major TV studio.

[GentlemanJim]

Well, they can't hurt anyone anymore, there should be some consolation in that?