Were the Monkees doomed the moment the show was cast? - Sitcoms Online Message Boards

Dick York was Darrin · 12-03-2021, 09:15 PM

Davey Jones - Excellent choice
Mickey Dolenz - Excellent choice
Peter Tork - Horrible choice
Peter Nesmith - Horrible choice

Nesmith and Tork, just a year into the show, revolted and took over the show, and ran it into the ground.

They wanted a few edgy characters, but wound up with two edgy characters, and two lunatics.

MIKEPR · 12-16-2021, 09:37 AM

In your own opinion.

Don't see why you'd ask such a question.

Zoneboy · 12-16-2021, 11:59 AM

I think all were great choices especially Michael Nesmith who was IMO the most talented of the group. I would say that the horrible choices were the cast of the New Monkees, now there's an idea that was doomed from the start.

Dick York was Darrin · 12-16-2021, 03:07 PM

I asked the question because Nesmith and Tork turned a huge success into a train wreck in two years.

GentlemanJim · 12-16-2021, 04:22 PM

There was the conflict of "is this a music group or a tv show?" that haunted both sides of the business venture.

Since Nesmith and Tork had more musical ability than the other two, it's quite predictable that they would be part of a schism once the music was more lucrative than the TV.

The real problem was that the entire venture was a hoax, and the public was completely seduced by it. And once the public started demanding that the illusion be made real, problems were inevitable.

Davy Jones was made the lead vocalist because he was cute and had teenybop appeal, while Mickey Dolenz was a much more accomplished vocalist, and hardly a drummer, at all. Tork had more instrumental skill than all the rest put together, and Nesmith was a talented writer

The TV studio execs screwed up their roles to suit certain benchmarks, making all the cast members perform in roles that other members were better suited for.

And, when the deception blew up in the studios faces, Tork and Nesmith were the most capable of fixing the problems

So, for me anyway, it's hard to fault the two as you are doing.

Now, if the phenomenal success on the music charts had never taken place, and the enterprise had remained exclusive to "4 zany guys pretending to be musicians" then yes, I would agree with you.

But the public at the time was not willing to allow that to happen. The Public was demanding that the illusion either be made real, or go away entirely. Once the scandal was made public, then the TV show would have died regardless.

Funny thing of it all is, lots of groups of that time period were not playing their own instruments on their studio albums, the Monkees just happened to get caught

Babalu · 12-16-2021, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GentlemanJim

The real problem was that the entire venture was a hoax, and the public was completely seduced by it. And once the public started demanding that the illusion be made real, problems were inevitable.

This is pretty much it. They were faking and were caught by their own success.

I'm actually surprised that they even let the cast sing, unlike most of the Partridge Family.

I didn't put this post in the Michael Nesmith Dies thread because it's probably not in the best of taste, but everything I've seen about Nesmith seems to indicate he was a pretty awful person. He seemed to have a huge undeserved ego evidently bought and paid for with his mother's Liquid Paper fortune. He may have had a very small cult musical following, but the stories of his temper tantrums and empty boasts have become his legacy.

MIKEPR · 12-17-2021, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dick York was Darrin

I asked the question because Nesmith and Tork turned a huge success into a train wreck in two years.

If they were bad choices it probably wouldn't have gotten a 2nd season.

Dick York was Darrin · 12-17-2021, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MIKEPR

If they were bad choices it probably wouldn't have gotten a 2nd season.

2 seasons for a smashing success? The show was hugely popular. The reason the show wasn't renewed for a THIRD season was because of Tork and Nesmith.

I feel bad for Mickey Dolenz and Davey Jones. They were shackled to Tork and Nesmith the rest of their lives, and had to pretend their great gig wasn't ruined by Tork and Nesmith.

I saw an interview where Jones pretty much hinted that after the first year, "everybody wanted to do everybody else's jobs, and ruined the whole thing." I'm sure by "everybody" he was referring to Tork and Nesmith.

Adamantium · 12-17-2021, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dick York was Darrin

2 seasons for a smashing success? The show was hugely popular. The reason the show wasn't renewed for a THIRD season was because of Tork and Nesmith.

I feel bad for Mickey Dolenz and Davey Jones. They were shackled to Tork and Nesmith the rest of their lives, and had to pretend their great gig wasn't ruined by Tork and Nesmith.

I saw an interview where Jones pretty much hinted that after the first year, "everybody wanted to do everybody else's jobs, and ruined the whole thing." I'm sure by "everybody" he was referring to Tork and Nesmith.

Maybe so, but Mike Nesmith is my favorite, so I'd rather have just two seasons with him than six or seven seasons with a different guy instead. If they didn't become a real band, they simply could have had a cast change and wrote Mike and Peter out, and replaced them, but by that point, The Monkees were more of a band than the cast of a TV sitcom.

opus · 12-17-2021, 06:19 PM

A bit confused by how 4 guys who had lifetime success as The Monkees were "doomed"

PracTz · 12-17-2021, 06:24 PM

I don't think Mr. Dolenz would have pleaded with either Mr. Nesmith or Mr. Tork to tour with them after Mr. Jones's passing if he didn't think they didn't each have talents that contributed to the sound.

Oh, and I DO think they also added good comedic elements to the show.

GentlemanJim · 12-18-2021, 01:51 AM

What I would hope everyone would be mindful of, while it started out being a TV show about 4 young musicians, the success of the music transformed it into 4 pop stars with a TV show. Impressionable youth would have it no other way. Then, as the "scandal" unfolded no one was going to continue watching the TV show, because just claiming you were a Monkees fan guaranteed you would be the target of ridicule. There is no way the TV show could have continued.

The only recipe for survival was to resurrect the music aspect. And Nesmith and Tork were the most capable of the 4 to make a go of that. The only path forward included them out of necessity

GentlemanJim · 12-18-2021, 01:55 AM

I remember buying "Headquarters", and being disappointed with it. It didn't have the sound I associated with them. Time has been kind to that album, now the critical opinion is much more favorable looking back.

MIKEPR · 12-18-2021, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dick York was Darrin

2 seasons for a smashing success?

Shush.

GentlemanJim · 12-18-2021, 11:15 AM

I believe the prospect of the Monkees tv show getting a renewal (at that time) would have gone over about as well as if Bill Cosby got a new sitcom today.

12-03-2021, 09:15 PM	#1
Dick York was Darrin Member Occasional Poster Join Date: Feb 06, 2021 Location: Virginia Posts: 99	Were the Monkees doomed the moment the show was cast? Davey Jones - Excellent choice Mickey Dolenz - Excellent choice Peter Tork - Horrible choice Peter Nesmith - Horrible choice Nesmith and Tork, just a year into the show, revolted and took over the show, and ran it into the ground. They wanted a few edgy characters, but wound up with two edgy characters, and two lunatics.

12-16-2021, 11:59 AM	#3
Zoneboy RIP, I'LL NEVER FORGET YOU :( Moderator Forum Superstar Join Date: Jul 13, 2003 Location: AT HOME WISHING ALL THIS WAS JUST A DREAM AND THAT I'LL WAKE UP FROM THIS NIGHTMARE. Posts: 34,339	I think all were great choices especially Michael Nesmith who was IMO the most talented of the group. I would say that the horrible choices were the cast of the New Monkees, now there's an idea that was doomed from the start.
	__________________ 'Twas The Night Before Christmas And All Through The Full House Not A Creature Was Stirring, Not Even Mighty Mouse. All My Children We're Nestled All Snug In Their Beds While Visions Of Sugarbakers Danced In Their Heads.

12-16-2021, 04:22 PM	#5
GentlemanJim Concerns, Support, & Feedback Forum Veteran Join Date: Dec 26, 2019 Location: The back country Posts: 5,443	There was the conflict of "is this a music group or a tv show?" that haunted both sides of the business venture. Since Nesmith and Tork had more musical ability than the other two, it's quite predictable that they would be part of a schism once the music was more lucrative than the TV. The real problem was that the entire venture was a hoax, and the public was completely seduced by it. And once the public started demanding that the illusion be made real, problems were inevitable. Davy Jones was made the lead vocalist because he was cute and had teenybop appeal, while Mickey Dolenz was a much more accomplished vocalist, and hardly a drummer, at all. Tork had more instrumental skill than all the rest put together, and Nesmith was a talented writer The TV studio execs screwed up their roles to suit certain benchmarks, making all the cast members perform in roles that other members were better suited for. And, when the deception blew up in the studios faces, Tork and Nesmith were the most capable of fixing the problems So, for me anyway, it's hard to fault the two as you are doing. Now, if the phenomenal success on the music charts had never taken place, and the enterprise had remained exclusive to "4 zany guys pretending to be musicians" then yes, I would agree with you. But the public at the time was not willing to allow that to happen. The Public was demanding that the illusion either be made real, or go away entirely. Once the scandal was made public, then the TV show would have died regardless. Funny thing of it all is, lots of groups of that time period were not playing their own instruments on their studio albums, the Monkees just happened to get caught
	__________________ On my word as a gentleman!

12-16-2021, 09:37 AM	#2
MIKEPR Member Frequent Poster Join Date: Oct 29, 2019 Posts: 368	In your own opinion. Don't see why you'd ask such a question.

12-16-2021, 03:07 PM	#4
Dick York was Darrin Member Occasional Poster Join Date: Feb 06, 2021 Location: Virginia Posts: 99	I asked the question because Nesmith and Tork turned a huge success into a train wreck in two years.

12-17-2021, 06:19 PM	#10
opus VB Forum Superstar Join Date: May 16, 2015 Location: VB Galaxy Posts: 32,130	A bit confused by how 4 guys who had lifetime success as The Monkees were "doomed"

12-17-2021, 06:24 PM	#11
PracTz Member Senior Member Join Date: Jul 14, 2002 Location: United States of America [Happily Living in the 20th Century] Posts: 2,711	I don't think Mr. Dolenz would have pleaded with either Mr. Nesmith or Mr. Tork to tour with them after Mr. Jones's passing if he didn't think they didn't each have talents that contributed to the sound. Oh, and I DO think they also added good comedic elements to the show.

12-18-2021, 01:51 AM	#12
GentlemanJim Concerns, Support, & Feedback Forum Veteran Join Date: Dec 26, 2019 Location: The back country Posts: 5,443	What I would hope everyone would be mindful of, while it started out being a TV show about 4 young musicians, the success of the music transformed it into 4 pop stars with a TV show. Impressionable youth would have it no other way. Then, as the "scandal" unfolded no one was going to continue watching the TV show, because just claiming you were a Monkees fan guaranteed you would be the target of ridicule. There is no way the TV show could have continued. The only recipe for survival was to resurrect the music aspect. And Nesmith and Tork were the most capable of the 4 to make a go of that. The only path forward included them out of necessity

12-18-2021, 01:55 AM	#13
GentlemanJim Concerns, Support, & Feedback Forum Veteran Join Date: Dec 26, 2019 Location: The back country Posts: 5,443	I remember buying "Headquarters", and being disappointed with it. It didn't have the sound I associated with them. Time has been kind to that album, now the critical opinion is much more favorable looking back.

12-18-2021, 11:15 AM	#15
GentlemanJim Concerns, Support, & Feedback Forum Veteran Join Date: Dec 26, 2019 Location: The back country Posts: 5,443	I believe the prospect of the Monkees tv show getting a renewal (at that time) would have gone over about as well as if Bill Cosby got a new sitcom today.