This needs to be talked about (PLEASE READ!)

[Frank Gannucci]

Me and cloggedmind have been searching for the Jackie Gleason Show from 1/17/70 that has The Incredible World of Ed Norton in it. We have contacted many people in regards to finding this episode or at least info as to why it hasn't been released. While most folks we've contacted do not have any concrete answers, most have been eager to help or offer words of encouragement. It is apparent, however, that the actual copyright owners, the Gleason family, are not keen on entertaining requests about the material.

In the past, I have contacted Geraldine Chuktuk, Gleason's daughter, many times and she has always been nice...except for the last time I contacted her. It was not a pleasant talk. I was telling her about the episode that we have been looking for and in the middle, she said: "Get to the point." I asked her about the episode and she said there are no extra clearance issues and it's in a vault. She hung up on me before I asked her where is the vault?

I also contacted Jackie's stepson, Craig Horwich, five years ago, left a message and he didn't respond. I got told beforehand that he might be difficult to deal with. I did however speak to two people who did have pleasant talks with him but when me and cloggedmind asked them to talk to Craig about the episode, they said they didn't think it was a good idea due to either lack of comfortableness or experiences. When cloggedmind heard this, he said that Jackie's children must not be all that interested in dealing with fans. What do you all think of this?

[Duster76]

This hits the nail on the head:

" When cloggedmind heard this, he said that Jackie's children must not be all that interested in dealing with fans".

There are times when we have to defer to Joe Friday, "just the facts". Jackie's family is up there in years and it appears they see the ownership of these episodes as an asset and nothing more. They are looking to monetize them to the extent that's possible if you are contacting them with a viable plan on how to do that they are all ears, if not they will give you the bums rush. Do you have any idea how the sets they have put out have sold? If there was some way to successfully address the needs of collectors and enthusiasts both parties could be satisfied. Suppose a process could be developed that could burn CD's from these masters and individuals could order what they wanted. People could complete season collections or collect episodes they liked. There would have to be enough money in it to make the owners a profit while not priced beyond the reach of individuals interested enough to order.

[RetroTVNitekatt]

Guys, don't you think if this exists, MPI or Time-Life would have put it out by now? Or the simple fact if it does exist in the gleason archive (Tape or kinescope) it's being held back out of respect for Art and his family due to Art's reported poor performance?

[OH Nuts!]

Originally Posted by Frank Gannucci

Me and cloggedmind have been searching for the Jackie Gleason Show from 1/17/70 that has The Incredible World of Ed Norton in it. We have contacted many people in regards to finding this episode or at least info as to why it hasn't been released. While most folks we've contacted do not have any concrete answers, most have been eager to help or offer words of encouragement. It is apparent, however, that the actual copyright owners, the Gleason family, are not keen on entertaining requests about the material.

In the past, I have contacted Geraldine Chuktuk, Gleason's daughter, many times and she has always been nice...except for the last time I contacted her. It was not a pleasant talk. I was telling her about the episode that we have been looking for and in the middle, she said: "Get to the point." I asked her about the episode and she said there are no extra clearance issues and it's in a vault. She hung up on me before I asked her where is the vault?

I also contacted Jackie's stepson, Craig Horwich, five years ago, left a message and he didn't respond. I got told beforehand that he might be difficult to deal with. I did however speak to two people who did have pleasant talks with him but when me and cloggedmind asked them to talk to Craig about the episode, they said they didn't think it was a good idea due to either lack of comfortableness or experiences. When cloggedmind heard this, he said that Jackie's children must not be all that interested in dealing with fans. What do you all think of this?

I know how dedicated you are to the show and how disillusioning this must be. But if his daughter was nice except for one incident, maybe sending her a heartfelt note and/ or a thoughtful gift for her help in the past.

Or maybe just give her a call to say thank you for all your help and how appreciative you are for it WiTHOUT ASKING HER FOR ANYTHING. It’s possible she was just having a bad day. Good luck. You dedication to the show is touching.

[GentlemanJim]

Originally Posted by Frank Gannucci

It was not a pleasant talk. I was telling her about the episode that we have been looking for and in the middle, she said: "Get to the point." I asked her about the episode and she said there are no extra clearance issues and it's in a vault.

I believe that the "get to the point" comment tells the main story. They feel you are taking advantage of their time.

I always try to put myself in the other person's shoes, and it sounds to me like they have grown weary trying to be nice about something they either don't want to do, or can't do for reasons they don't care to disclose. They likely feel nagged beyond the point they are willing to tolerate.
I think that your only solution is to make an offer that is too good to refuse ($$$). Good luck.

[cloggedmind]

Originally Posted by RetroTVNitekatt

Guys, don't you think if this exists, MPI or Time-Life would have put it out by now? Or the simple fact if it does exist in the gleason archive (Tape or kinescope) it's being held back out of respect for Art and his family due to Art's reported poor performance?

We do know, now, that the show exists in the vault. It was information extracted like pulling teeth but Frank got it, bless him!

I'd guess that particular program might have been considered for release, as the Time-Life dvd set booklet mentions tapes that they couldn't salvage. So, maybe it was originally to be included since the set did seem geared toward collecting all the rest of the color Honeymooners bits 'n bobs. But no one wants to say.

I get that people are people with people problems, and everyone has bad days. Bu-u-u-ut...

Think of it this way, too: The Gleason family LLC has a website as a point of contact for all things, well.. Gleason! If they'd rather not be bothered, or "arsed" as the British say, to deal with inquiries about any and all related minutiae, why even bother with a web presence? Just take the thing down and be done with it, right?

[Bill S.]

Originally Posted by cloggedmind

Think of it this way, too: The Gleason family LLC has a website as a point of contact for all things, well.. Gleason! If they'd rather not be bothered, or "arsed" as the British say, to deal with inquiries about any and all related minutiae, why even bother with a web presence? Just take the thing down and be done with it, right?

I think the site is probably intended for business purposes. Not to criticize Frank, as he has been very involved behind the scenes in trying to locate stuff, but he wasn't making a business inquiry. That doesn't mean she had to respond that way, but it is something to consider. Another thing I told him was that I don't think Geraldine knows much about specific shows. She has made public comments that were not accurate.

As to what is keeping this show from being released, damage is a possibility. Respect for Carney could be another. Also, the Time Life set was focused on Jackie, so a half hour failed Carney pilot might not have been something they wanted to showcase.

[cloggedmind]

Originally Posted by Bill S.

I think the site is probably intended for business purposes. Not to criticize Frank, as he has been very involved behind the scenes in trying to locate stuff, but he wasn't making a business inquiry. That doesn't mean she had to respond that way, but it is something to consider. Another thing I told him was that I don't think Geraldine knows much about specific shows. She has made public comments that were not accurate.

As to what is keeping this show from being released, damage is a possibility. Respect for Carney could be another. Also, the Time Life set was focused on Jackie, so a half hour failed Carney pilot might not have been something they wanted to showcase.

All too true. As for accuracy about the "Incredible World.." pilot, even in the Art Carney Bio from Michael Seth Starr, the information was ambiguous, at best. Some say it was great, others, like co-star Phil Leeds, recalled that it stunk and was doomed from the start.

The Time-Life set was Jackie-centric, however they did include the episode with Norton as a guest, so maybe there was an effort made to get the remaining Honeymooners stuff all together. Though it exists, the Ed Norton pilot may be damaged or deteriorated beyond repair, but no one will give specific details. From the look of those tapes pictured in the booklet, I'm surprised any of them play. For tapes that haven't been touched in decades the cases look rather ratty and badly kept. Maybe the vault isn't as air-conditioned as the legend specifies.

Still, at the end of the day, Geraldine and Craig were listed as Executive Producers of the Time-Life set and, as such, I would presume they have more than a passing knowledge of what is in the vault. Though, I would agree that as time goes by and the brand recognition and interest diminishes, they probably choose not to give a crap about the material (legacy or no legacy) as it just doesn't pay off.

[cloggedmind]

Originally Posted by OH Nuts!

Or maybe just give her a call to say thank you for all your help and how appreciative you are for it WiTHOUT ASKING HER FOR ANYTHING. It’s possible she was just having a bad day.

Based on the level of hostility from the most recent call, I'd say that was a bad idea.

With a lawyer in their immediate family unit, I'd be worried about being sued for harassment.

[katmandu38]

THIS is not an insult to anyone. The color eps are poor in every way compared to the lost episodes. These are the crown jewels in my mind. And they more funny than the 39 also.. So if incred world is never found i am ok with it. The complete 50's boxset is the greatness of the show. Jackie, Art, Audrey and Joyce are the HONEYMOONERS.

[Bill S.]

Originally Posted by cloggedmind

Still, at the end of the day, Geraldine and Craig were listed as Executive Producers of the Time-Life set and, as such, I would presume they have more than a passing knowledge of what is in the vault. Though, I would agree that as time goes by and the brand recognition and interest diminishes, they probably choose not to give a crap about the material (legacy or no legacy) as it just doesn't pay off.

I would presume that about Craig. Geraldine, however, was the one who told Frank that they didn't have the rights to the short color sketches.

Originally Posted by katmandu38

THIS is not an insult to anyone. The color eps are poor in every way compared to the lost episodes. These are the crown jewels in my mind. And they more funny than the 39 also.. So if incred world is never found i am ok with it. The complete 50's boxset is the greatness of the show. Jackie, Art, Audrey and Joyce are the HONEYMOONERS.

I agree with most of that, but "Incredible World" still sounds interesting to me. You know, Al Lewis is supposedly in it. Even if it's terrible, I think it would be worth seeing for Norton and Grandpa together!

[katmandu38]

AL LEWIS was great in car 54. the whole cast was except for the lead. he was not funny. not speaking of fred gwynne. also the balance of the cast was great. the captain, nipsyy russell and the rest.

[Bill S.]

Originally Posted by katmandu38

AL LEWIS was great in car 54. the whole cast was except for the lead. he was not funny. not speaking of fred gwynne. also the balance of the cast was great. the captain, nipsyy russell and the rest.

Joe E. Ross? I liked him in short bursts on Bilko, but I don't think he was a good enough actor to carry a series like Car 54.

[Frank Gannucci]

I heard that in 2001, when the Hallmark Channel was supposed to air the Color Honeymooners only for them to change their their decision, they were going to air a special where they were going to show the short color sketches. Now, i know that Time Life has since than released seven of the short sketches. But, I wonder if Hallmark had intentions of airing Incredible World as part of the special. If they did, how were they going to go about airing this special?

[Bill S.]

Originally Posted by Frank Gannucci

I heard that in 2001, when the Hallmark Channel was supposed to air the Color Honeymooners only for them to change their their decision, they were going to air a special where they were going to show the short color sketches. Now, i know that Time Life has since than released seven of the short sketches. But, I wonder if Hallmark had intentions of airing Incredible World as part of the special. If they did, how were they going to go about airing this special?

You're assuming they knew about it. You've got to remember that these people aren't necessarily die-hard fans like us, and "Incredible World" isn't technically a Honeymooners episode.