Statements/accounts from family members that you are skeptical of

[unsolved88]

I kind of got the idea to make this thread after reading what some people were saying in the “Unpopular opinion” thread. A lot of people shared this particular viewpoint.

I’m not talking about people who you thought were outright lying because they were guilty of a crime (i.e; Stephen Marfeo, Judy Groezinger, etc.). I’m referring to family members or friends who had no hand in what happened to their loved one but who you felt may have been exaggerating, in denial, or just plain mistaken. It is not an attack on these people.

Many times, we tend to automatically err on the side of a victim’s grieving relatives. This is completely understandable as these people have often suffered severe emotional trauma from losing their loved one. But as people in the other thread point out, we tend to go overboard sometimes and take their word as gospel even if it clearly doesn’t make sense. A perfect example of this, although not featured on UM, is Johnny Gosch’s mother Noreen who continues to insist that her son visited her in the middle of the night 15 years after he vanished. She went to the FBI who understandably could do nothing since they only had her word that this even happened at all. But on many true crime boards, I’ve seen people try to politely challenge the veracity of Noreen’s claims and conspiracy theories only to immediately get called insensitive and disrespectful because “a mother knows her own son!” and “Noreen has done so much for missing children! How dare you question her!”. Yes, Noreen has been instrumental in helping get law enforcement to take missing kids more seriously. That doesn’t make her above reproach and exempt from any type of critique. Everyone seems afraid of being seen as “that person” who “attacked” a grieving mother.

Anyway, with that out of the way (sorry, that was longer than I anticipated), here are some of my choices.

* I’m not convinced that the alleged threatening encounter Norman Ladner’s mother had in the coroner’s office happened the way she claimed, or even at all. Her husband never mentions having seen this encounter take place and if he was right beside her when the man called her to the side as the re-enactment shows, he would have. No one from the coroner’s office is interviewed to confirm or deny this incident and Stack doesn’t give his usual “they declined our request for an interview” disclaimer. The encounter is mentioned once and essentially forgotten for the rest of the segment. And I agree with the officer interviewed when he said that he believed that had the cause of death never been changed from accident to suicide, the parents would never be pursuing this as a murder. Mrs. Ladner basically says as much earlier in the segment.

* We only really have Charlie Sigmin’s mother and friend’s (hardly unbiased) word that Ann worshipped the devil and practiced Satanic rituals. And it’s based on what they say Charlie told them when he was alive, essentially making it hearsay. This was also in a small Bible Belt town at the height of Satanic Panic. I think it’s quite possible that Ann may have been into something such as Wicca or some type of new age stuff and God-fearing Charlie (who I always kind of felt had a darker side to him that the segment left out) immediately thought that since it clearly wasn’t Christian, it had to be of the devil. And the part about Ann sitting in the shed “half-naked” surrounded by candles with Satanic imagery on the wall is so cliche it hurts.

* Nearly all of the information about Tammy Leppert’s behavior and mental state come from her mother and Wing. The detective is interviewed very briefly on the NBC version, but on the Lifetime edit, his small portion is cut completely. Other than a brief mention of Tammy being given psychiatric tests and being deemed sane, is there any other person beside her family who actually saw her paranoid about eating or breaking out the bay window? I just feel like there’s something missing here.

I’m sure there are more than this, but that’s all I can think of right now.

[yourhomiebrian]

Originally Posted by unsolved88

I kind of got the idea to make this thread after reading what some people were saying in the “Unpopular opinion” thread. A lot of people shared this particular viewpoint.

I’m not talking to people who you thought were outright lying because they were guilty of a crime (i.e; Stephen Marfeo, Judy Groezinger, etc.). I’m referring to family members or friends who had no hand in what happened to their loved one but who you felt may have been exaggerating, in denial, or just plain mistaken. It is not an attack on these people.

Many times, we tend to automatically err on the side of a victim’s grieving relatives. This is completely understandable as these people have often suffered severe emotional trauma from losing their loved one. But as people in the other thread point out, we tend to go overboard sometimes and take their word as gospel even if it clearly doesn’t make sense. A perfect example of this, although not featured on UM, is Johnny Gosch’s mother Noreen who continues to insist that her son visited her in the middle of the night 15 years after he vanished. She went to the FBI who understandably could do nothing since they only had her word that this even happened at all. But on many true crime boards, I’ve seen people try to politely challenge the veracity of Noreen’s claims and conspiracy theories only to immediate get called insensitive and disrespectful because “a mother knows her own son!” and “Noreen has done so much for missing children! How dare you question her!”. Yes, Noreen has been instrumental in helping get law enforcement to take missing kids more seriously. That doesn’t make her above reproach and exempt from any type of critique. Everyone seems afraid of being seen as “that person” who “attacked” a grieving mother.

Anyway, with that out of the way (sorry, that was longer than I anticipated), here are some of my choices.

* I’m not convinced that the alleged threatening encounter Norman Ladner’s mother had in the coroner’s office happened the way she claimed, or even at all. Her husband never mentions having seen this encounter take place and if he was right beside her when the man called her to the side as the re-enactment shows, he would have. No one from the coroner’s office is interviewed to confirm or deny this incident and Stack doesn’t give his usual “they declined our request for an interview” disclaimer. The encounter is mentioned once and essentially forgotten for the rest of the segment. And I agree with the officer interviewed when he said that he believed that had the cause of death never been changed from accident to suicide, the parents would never be pursuing this as a murder. Mrs. Ladner basically says as much earlier in the segment.

* We only really have Charlie Sigmin’s mother and friend’s (hardly unbiased) word that Ann worshipped the devil and practiced Satanic rituals. And it’s based on what they say Charlie told them when he was alive, essentially making it hearsay. This was also in a small Bible Belt town at the height of Satanic Panic. I think it’s quite possible that Ann may have been into something such as Wicca or some type of new age stuff and God-fearing Charlie (who I always kind of felt had a darker side to him that the segment left out) immediately thought that since it clearly wasn’t Christian, it had to be of the devil. And the part about Ann sitting in the shed “half-naked” surrounded by candles with Satanic imagery on the wall is so cliche it hurts.

* Nearly all of the information about Tammy Leppert’s behavior and mental state come from her mother and Wing. The detective is interviewed very briefly on the NBC version, but on the Lifetime edit, his small portion is cut completely. Other than a brief mention of Tammy being given psychiatric tests and being deemed sane, is there any other person beside her family who actually saw her paranoid about eating or breaking out the bay window? I just feel like there’s something missing here.

I’m sure there are more than this, but that’s all I can think of right now.

Good thread! That was the first one I thought of was Norman Ladners mom at the coroner's office.
I also am skeptical of Tony Lombardi's mother saying she saw the light was on then it was off in Tony's room. I think she's either mistaken or just saying that to help get a murder investigation.

[unsolved88]

Originally Posted by yourhomiebrian

Good thread! That was the first one I thought of was Norman Ladners mom at the coroner's office.
I also am skeptical of Tony Lombardi's mother saying she saw the light was on then it was off in Tony's room. I think she's either mistaken or just saying that to help get a murder investigation.

Yes, I meant to put Cheryl Lombardi in there as well. The more I think about it, the less her theory about the killer still being in the house make sense. I also always thought it was very telling that Tony’s was possibly the only “suicide vs. murder” case ever featured where the family didn’t have a hired expert come on and explain why it was a murder. It’s all from the parents’ point of view and they’re neither trained investigators nor unbiased.

[dynoguy88]

Originally Posted by unsolved88

* Nearly all of the information about Tammy Leppert’s behavior and mental state come from her mother and Wing. The detective is interviewed very briefly on the NBC version, but on the Lifetime edit, his small portion is cut completely. Other than a brief mention of Tammy being given psychiatric tests and being deemed sane, is there any other person beside her family who actually saw her paranoid about eating or breaking out the bay window? I just feel like there’s something missing here.

Directors, actors and an entire camera crew witnessed her scream and breakdown as the chainsaw scene in 'Scarface' was being filmed. She was escorted to a trailer and consoled by a family friend, Walter Libowitz, at which point she still had not calmed down, saying, "He's going to kill me."

The window incident was what FINALLY convinced Tammy's mother to get her psychiatric tests.

Tammy's mother once mentioned in a newspaper article that it's impossible to tell Tammy's entire story in just a 12 minute segment. So if you feel there's something missing, that's natural. But I don't see any reason not to believe Linda, Wing or his parents.

[Mike82]

Amy Bradley's family seemed in complete denial of what was likely the obvious answer (her accidently falling overboard). I have investigated this case in depth and still cannot come to any other conclusion. I agree with the OP in that I have tried to discuss this case and have been called "disrespectful" for suggesting that she might have done something foolish that led to her accidental death.

Another that pops up a lot is "XYZ would NEVER commit suicide! (S)he is so happy!" I don't know why so many are willing to just accept this as evidence of murder. In my experience, almost all comedians are very depressed and if someone is "happy", especially when it is relatively sudden that's a gigantic red flag for a suicide. It's almost like we are horrible people for suggesting that as complete strangers, we dare make character judgements when their family knows them best. One of my friends had her father kill himself and another former coworker had a husband do the same (who even had a 2 year old son) and in neither case was there ANY indication something was wrong.

[RobinW]

Curt Borton's sister saying she saw him at the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, but in spite of searching for Curt for years, she refused to approach him because she feared for the safety of her daughters. This story just never made any sense to me.

[TheCars1986]

I find it hard to believe that multiple police officers, jailers, guards, etc. would have recognized the extremely common last name of Jones, and somehow all conspire to do harm to a young man busted for driving a stolen vehicle because they knew that his mother was the president of a local chapter of the NAACP and that they were raging racists. Not only that, but Andre Jones's stepfather was a minister in a hate group, so I take everything he said with a grain of salt in that segment.

[Hot Jock]

Originally Posted by Mike82

Amy Bradley's family seemed in complete denial of what was likely the obvious answer (her accidently falling overboard). I have investigated this case in depth and still cannot come to any other conclusion. I agree with the OP in that I have tried to discuss this case and have been called "disrespectful" for suggesting that she might have done something foolish that led to her accidental death.

Another that pops up a lot is "XYZ would NEVER commit suicide! (S)he is so happy!" I don't know why so many are willing to just accept this as evidence of murder. In my experience, almost all comedians are very depressed and if someone is "happy", especially when it is relatively sudden that's a gigantic red flag for a suicide. It's almost like we are horrible people for suggesting that as complete strangers, we dare make character judgements when their family knows them best. One of my friends had her father kill himself and another former coworker had a husband do the same (who even had a 2 year old son) and in neither case was there ANY indication something was wrong.

Completely agree with both points.

I feel bad for Amy Bradley’s family, but when you use logic instead of emotion to analyze her case it seems like a 100% certainty that she fell overboard and that no foul play was involved. Her father is so delusional in that regard that he refused to allow that scenario to even be mentioned in the Disappeared episode about her. That’s pretty absurd that they weren’t even permitted to explore the most likely outcome.

As far as friends/relatives of potential suicide victims are concerned, I’ll just say this: Nobody is capable of being inside someone else’s head. Depression is a hell of a thing and some people are extremely good at hiding it. You never know.

[StackTime]

Pretty much all of the military suicide segments. I think we tend to forget that some people enter the service with emotional problems to begin with. You don't necessarily need to have a history of diagnosed depression to become suicidal either.

[Labonte18]

The fish farmer.

Craig Williamson.

Just sounds like a complete BS story. I think he found Christine clingy or something and he wanted out, so he just disappeared. The problem was.. She was fairly ferocious in searching for him.

Christine came across very well on the episode, but I always got this vibe of it would be exhausting to live with her.. Could be wrong.. Just.. that's the feel I got.

[tsaun]

Originally Posted by Labonte18

The fish farmer.

Craig Williamson.

Just sounds like a complete BS story. I think he found Christine clingy or something and he wanted out, so he just disappeared. The problem was.. She was fairly ferocious in searching for him.

Christine came across very well on the episode, but I always got this vibe of it would be exhausting to live with her.. Could be wrong.. Just.. that's the feel I got.

He thought he could get away!

[Labonte18]

Originally Posted by tsaun

He thought he could get away!

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying in all seriousness.

Now, it's just a guess of why he wanted to get away.. But they had only known each other a month before they got married.. I'd love to know a followup on him.. Like where he is.. He'd be about 76 now, presuming he's still alive.

I've pulled some newspaper articles from the time they were married, they were interviewed in the Green Bay newspaper.. And when I say "They".. It was her. not a single word in any of the articles from him. He was mentioned, but not one quote from him in any of them.

So.. Yeah.. I think he realized he made a mistake in getting married and came up with this 'great idea'.. And got caught a bit by surprise when she was so tenacious about finding him.

Long story short.. I think she loved him MUCH more than he loved her.

[drew790]

The story about the little african american baby that was stolen in the 50s by two teenagers. Too many random events had to happen to allow it.

[unsolved88]

Also, I don’t believe Darlie Routier’s mother’s claim that upon her daughter’s conviction, the authorities were all high-fiving each other and told her to “get the hell out of their office”. They may have asked her to leave, but I don’t think they were blatantly rude and obnoxious as she says.

[Chichester Crowe]

Donald Kemp's mom and all that business about the phone calls from Casper, WY.