Rarely-Shown Episodes Start Out BAD - Sitcoms Online Message Boards

stevea · 06-15-2018, 09:20 AM

The second half of Season 11, and all of season 12, are the rarest of the rare. They were not part of any syndication package, since probably the 1970s. These episodes have been shown, many years ago, on Nick at Nite and Odyssey/Hallmark. The Odyssey/Hallmark showings were 1970s, badly edited versions.

The bad news? The first of these episodes, "St. Louis Blues", was shown on MeTV today. Same badly edited episode as Hallmark showed, complete with 1970s Viacom logo at the end.

biffbronson · 06-15-2018, 07:13 PM

This does not bode well, a disappointment.

If I'm not mistaken, this print also had a "silent" opening -- no narration of the series title or names of the actors (theme music only). It's very likely in error -- to my knowledge, all of the Season 11 episodes should have the announcer's voice. That type of thing would not be difficult to correct.

stevea · 06-15-2018, 07:25 PM

You are not mistaken. These are EXACTLY (99% exactly) the same sources as used by Odyssey and Hallmark, years ago. That is a real old edit of the opener, without the announcer.

The only thing I don't know is whether Nick at Nite used better sources when they showed them from 1985 to 1991. (If anyone knows, please let us know!) Being owned by Viacom, they may have been able to get better versions.

The really odd thing is that some entity did a REALLY good job of remastering the first 12 episodes of season 11. My guess is they found really pristine videotape copies of those episodes. For the last half of season 11 (and all of season 12), they may have been forced to master off the original 35 mm negatives (if any improvements were to be made), and were unwilling to go to that expense.

TheLogoMan94 · 06-15-2018, 10:47 PM

In my opinion, I think the last half of Season 11 and all of Season 12 were sourced from 16mm prints, because I have that Viacom logo on many of my 16mm prints. I've never seen it on 35mm before.

To reiterate, yes, these are the exact same prints Hallmark used almost 18-20 years ago. Apparently, the logo community is going nuts over this, because if I'm correct, that Viacom logo hasn't been seen since these episodes last aired on Hallmark. What I don't understand is, why would CBS even bother adding their logo if they didn't take the time to remove Viacom's logo? Also, to make things even more strange, they added their logo before Viacom's logo, instead of after.

Speaking of which, does anybody have the full episode recorded? I'm trying to record all of these rare episodes in HD, and my recording failed this morning.

stevea · 06-15-2018, 10:57 PM

Yeah, it's a night and day difference between the first and last half of S11. Those cheapskates at CBS need to break open the coffers and remaster these episodes, so they're to broadcast standards. Also, my bad, they do look like 16mm.

Also, it's a mystery to me, too, that they added the CBS logo, and retained that ancient Viacom logo after it. Probably just a mistake.

TheLogoMan94 · 06-15-2018, 11:04 PM

The next episode will air Monday. If that episode retains Viacom's logo, then this was probably done on purpose. If they retained Viacom's logo on these episodes, I wonder why they didn't on some episodes of the first 5 seasons.

In a way, I kinda hope they show Viacom's logo on Monday. I've always liked seeing that one for some reason.

stevea · 06-15-2018, 11:22 PM

I enjoy the logos too. I wonder if the network airings of M3S had the Paramount logo of the day. When CBS remastered Brady Bunch and Odd Couple, you could tell they had the original negs., since the remasters have the old Paramount logo.

In many cases, these original old logos just disappear, never to be seen again. Like The Rifleman had a Four-Star logo at the end. Gone.

TheLogoMan94 · 06-15-2018, 11:25 PM

Did the episode start out with Fred MacMurray saying "Hi! Welcome to our Show!" I ask because when today's episode aired on Hallmark, it included that intro.

faraj · 06-16-2018, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLogoMan94

Did the episode start out with Fred MacMurray saying "Hi! Welcome to our Show!" I ask because when today's episode aired on Hallmark, it included that intro.

No, they didn't show Fred greeting the viewers in today's ep. like I expected them to.

stevea · 06-16-2018, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLogoMan94

Did the episode start out with Fred MacMurray saying "Hi! Welcome to our Show!" I ask because when today's episode aired on Hallmark, it included that intro.

Those old masters have that Hi welcome to our show--MeTV probably axed it.

He filmed several of those--the originals had sponsor tags, like Hi welcome to our show for Hunts' foods. I know that because a couple of those are on old VHS tapes from Columbia House.

JMFabiano524 · 06-16-2018, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevea

Yeah, it's a night and day difference between the first and last half of S11. Those cheapskates at CBS need to break open the coffers and remaster these episodes, so they're to broadcast standards. Also, my bad, they do look like 16mm.

Also, it's a mystery to me, too, that they added the CBS logo, and retained that ancient Viacom logo after it. Probably just a mistake.

I think they only took care to restore up to the first half of S11, as I recall TVL getting up to that point. Or so I'm told. What's funny is, I think I also heard that Odyssey used older prints of the first half anyway while TVL got the fresher ones which is what we saw on Me, Decades, etc.

Again the simple detective work is to look at the closing logos. Apparently TVL's S11.1 had the then-current Paramount logo (the one with the Viacom byline) while you saw older Viacom logos on Odyssey's 11.1 airings. As well as looking for the introduction announcement.

If they're remastering for TV, I guess it's OK as they seem to not have problems with Frank DeVol's music unlike on DVD (BTW, when they air S1 and S2, do they have the original or "new" music?) Sad for logo enthusiasts of course, but different strokes and all.

On some examples of the end credits seen on the Odyssey prints, usually put on YouTube to display the 1971-1975 Viacom logo (aka the "Pinball"), I do notice a gap between the end credits and logo. Maybe CBS decided to get cute and put its logo in the gap? Notice that the Pinball seems to be joined in progress on this past Friday's MeTV airing.

What's also tricky is, the previous 10 seasons are differing when it comes to closing logos if you use those to date the prints. 1-5 apparently have the CBSTD "studio of staleness" while 6-10 have the 1990 installment of the Viacom logo (the wiggling line and the announcer saying the company's name). Yet all seem to be in good quality. As I said S11.1 would have further updated with Paramount's 1994-and-up logo.

stevea · 06-16-2018, 12:33 PM

Seasons 6-10 are in pretty good quality.

I thought the first 12 episodes of season 11 were excellent. TV Land and MeTV probably got the same really good-quality masters. Probably TV Land edited them one way, and MeTV edited them another way (I compared the edits and they are different).

In the last of the "good" season 11 episode Thursday, CBS also left the newer Viacom logo on there, after the current CBS TV Dist. logo. Now that I think about it, TV Land masters for season 11 had a Paramount logo.

In another post someone pointed out that these later season 11 episodes look like they're mastered from 16mm prints, which would explain the lower quality. CBS needs to get the original 35 mm negatives and produce unedited (the edits in these episodes are HORRIBLE), broadcast quality episodes.

biffbronson · 06-16-2018, 01:04 PM

I'll be disappointed if MeTV doesn't include "Hi! Welcome to our show!"at all. By contrast Decades has left the comparable tag lines for Family Affair intact, both open and close (circa 1970-71 as well).

stevea · 06-16-2018, 01:26 PM

Yeah, I've seen those varying show intros. on FA on MeTV, also.

It's possible CBS has edited them out of M3S. When they were even included on the regularly syndicated seasons years ago, they were only shown on S10 and the syndicated part of S11. It wasn't included on other seasons, probably because MacMurray didn't record a generic version.

JMFabiano524 · 06-16-2018, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevea

Seasons 6-10 are in pretty good quality.

I thought the first 12 episodes of season 11 were excellent. TV Land and MeTV probably got the same really good-quality masters. Probably TV Land edited them one way, and MeTV edited them another way (I compared the edits and they are different).

In the last of the "good" season 11 episode Thursday, CBS also left the newer Viacom logo on there, after the current CBS TV Dist. logo. Now that I think about it, TV Land masters for season 11 had a Paramount logo.

In another post someone pointed out that these later season 11 episodes look like they're mastered from 16mm prints, which would explain the lower quality. CBS needs to get the original 35 mm negatives and produce unedited (the edits in these episodes are HORRIBLE), broadcast quality episodes.

Hold up...a S11.1 episode had a Viacom logo? By "newer" Viacom I assume you mean the wiggling line and announcer. Interesting, as assuming these are the "good" i.e. TVL prints, you'd think a Paramount logo would be there had they kept what was there originally.

Now that I think of it, several Odyssey M3S airings also had Paramount logos. Which would make me assume they had SOME fresher prints (I wasn't into M3S at the time, plus didn't have Odyssey). But then again, we also know that sometimes it's just been a case of slapping the logo on an old print.

Technically, the Viacom logo most of the discussion has been about was barely seen on TV 6 years ago in Australia at the end of Hogan's Heroes on TVOne. Only that amounted to just one 16MM-like frame of blank screen with the first note of the "Pinball" jingle before the 1990 logo appears. But it hasn't been seen on TV for 18 years give or take in full.

Oh well, guess us fans will have a ball collecting up older Viacom logos, if nothing else.

06-15-2018, 09:20 AM	#1
stevea 22 Years On Sitcoms Moderator Forum Legend Join Date: Aug 13, 2003 Location: Indy Posts: 44,677	Rarely-Shown Episodes Start Out BAD The second half of Season 11, and all of season 12, are the rarest of the rare. They were not part of any syndication package, since probably the 1970s. These episodes have been shown, many years ago, on Nick at Nite and Odyssey/Hallmark. The Odyssey/Hallmark showings were 1970s, badly edited versions. The bad news? The first of these episodes, "St. Louis Blues", was shown on MeTV today. Same badly edited episode as Hallmark showed, complete with 1970s Viacom logo at the end.
	Last edited by stevea; 06-15-2018 at 07:27 PM. Reason: Correction

06-15-2018, 07:25 PM	#3
stevea 22 Years On Sitcoms Moderator Forum Legend Join Date: Aug 13, 2003 Location: Indy Posts: 44,677	You are not mistaken. These are EXACTLY (99% exactly) the same sources as used by Odyssey and Hallmark, years ago. That is a real old edit of the opener, without the announcer. The only thing I don't know is whether Nick at Nite used better sources when they showed them from 1985 to 1991. (If anyone knows, please let us know!) Being owned by Viacom, they may have been able to get better versions. The really odd thing is that some entity did a REALLY good job of remastering the first 12 episodes of season 11. My guess is they found really pristine videotape copies of those episodes. For the last half of season 11 (and all of season 12), they may have been forced to master off the original 35 mm negatives (if any improvements were to be made), and were unwilling to go to that expense.
	Last edited by stevea; 06-15-2018 at 07:28 PM. Reason: Corrected original post, rmv reference to corr.

06-16-2018, 12:33 PM	#12
stevea 22 Years On Sitcoms Moderator Forum Legend Join Date: Aug 13, 2003 Location: Indy Posts: 44,677	Seasons 6-10 are in pretty good quality. I thought the first 12 episodes of season 11 were excellent. TV Land and MeTV probably got the same really good-quality masters. Probably TV Land edited them one way, and MeTV edited them another way (I compared the edits and they are different). In the last of the "good" season 11 episode Thursday, CBS also left the newer Viacom logo on there, after the current CBS TV Dist. logo. Now that I think about it, TV Land masters for season 11 had a Paramount logo. In another post someone pointed out that these later season 11 episodes look like they're mastered from 16mm prints, which would explain the lower quality. CBS needs to get the original 35 mm negatives and produce unedited (the edits in these episodes are HORRIBLE), broadcast quality episodes.
	Last edited by stevea; 06-16-2018 at 12:34 PM. Reason: correction

06-15-2018, 07:13 PM	#2
biffbronson Sentimental Fool Forum Star Join Date: Aug 22, 2009 Location: Near Notre Dame Posts: 10,493	This does not bode well, a disappointment. If I'm not mistaken, this print also had a "silent" opening -- no narration of the series title or names of the actors (theme music only). It's very likely in error -- to my knowledge, all of the Season 11 episodes should have the announcer's voice. That type of thing would not be difficult to correct.

06-15-2018, 10:47 PM	#4
TheLogoMan94 16mm Film Enthusiast Frequent Poster Join Date: Jul 24, 2014 Location: Silverstone (60,000 Acres) Posts: 288	In my opinion, I think the last half of Season 11 and all of Season 12 were sourced from 16mm prints, because I have that Viacom logo on many of my 16mm prints. I've never seen it on 35mm before. To reiterate, yes, these are the exact same prints Hallmark used almost 18-20 years ago. Apparently, the logo community is going nuts over this, because if I'm correct, that Viacom logo hasn't been seen since these episodes last aired on Hallmark. What I don't understand is, why would CBS even bother adding their logo if they didn't take the time to remove Viacom's logo? Also, to make things even more strange, they added their logo before Viacom's logo, instead of after. Speaking of which, does anybody have the full episode recorded? I'm trying to record all of these rare episodes in HD, and my recording failed this morning.

06-15-2018, 10:57 PM	#5
stevea 22 Years On Sitcoms Moderator Forum Legend Join Date: Aug 13, 2003 Location: Indy Posts: 44,677	Yeah, it's a night and day difference between the first and last half of S11. Those cheapskates at CBS need to break open the coffers and remaster these episodes, so they're to broadcast standards. Also, my bad, they do look like 16mm. Also, it's a mystery to me, too, that they added the CBS logo, and retained that ancient Viacom logo after it. Probably just a mistake.

06-15-2018, 11:04 PM	#6
TheLogoMan94 16mm Film Enthusiast Frequent Poster Join Date: Jul 24, 2014 Location: Silverstone (60,000 Acres) Posts: 288	The next episode will air Monday. If that episode retains Viacom's logo, then this was probably done on purpose. If they retained Viacom's logo on these episodes, I wonder why they didn't on some episodes of the first 5 seasons. In a way, I kinda hope they show Viacom's logo on Monday. I've always liked seeing that one for some reason.

06-15-2018, 11:22 PM	#7
stevea 22 Years On Sitcoms Moderator Forum Legend Join Date: Aug 13, 2003 Location: Indy Posts: 44,677	I enjoy the logos too. I wonder if the network airings of M3S had the Paramount logo of the day. When CBS remastered Brady Bunch and Odd Couple, you could tell they had the original negs., since the remasters have the old Paramount logo. In many cases, these original old logos just disappear, never to be seen again. Like The Rifleman had a Four-Star logo at the end. Gone.

06-15-2018, 11:25 PM	#8
TheLogoMan94 16mm Film Enthusiast Frequent Poster Join Date: Jul 24, 2014 Location: Silverstone (60,000 Acres) Posts: 288	Did the episode start out with Fred MacMurray saying "Hi! Welcome to our Show!" I ask because when today's episode aired on Hallmark, it included that intro.

06-16-2018, 01:04 PM	#13
biffbronson Sentimental Fool Forum Star Join Date: Aug 22, 2009 Location: Near Notre Dame Posts: 10,493	I'll be disappointed if MeTV doesn't include "Hi! Welcome to our show!"at all. By contrast Decades has left the comparable tag lines for Family Affair intact, both open and close (circa 1970-71 as well).

06-16-2018, 01:26 PM	#14
stevea 22 Years On Sitcoms Moderator Forum Legend Join Date: Aug 13, 2003 Location: Indy Posts: 44,677	Yeah, I've seen those varying show intros. on FA on MeTV, also. It's possible CBS has edited them out of M3S. When they were even included on the regularly syndicated seasons years ago, they were only shown on S10 and the syndicated part of S11. It wasn't included on other seasons, probably because MacMurray didn't record a generic version.