Kurt Cobain: Not a Suicide?

[Dislimb]

Originally Posted by JimmyHendricks

His name was Eldon Hoke, and he was the lead singer of some S&M metal band.

The Mentors. They sucked, big time.

[LooksLikeCRicci]

Originally Posted by Dislimb

There is no doubt in my mind that he blew his brains out. If I were married to that, I would have done the same.

Ouch!

That being said, I tend to believe the same, although I've previously stated that I think the Courtney Love murder scenario is intriguing. Something that always made me think that Cobain killed himself is that the last song he recorded in the studio (I think it's called "You Know You're Right") is basically a suicide note, if you look at the lyrics. In addition, my ex-fiance owned the Nirvana boxed set, and if you listen to the acoustic/demo version of the same song, it's seriously haunting. I firmly believe that Cobain killed himself.

[Dislimb]

Originally Posted by LooksLikeCRicci

Ouch!

That being said, I tend to believe the same, although I've previously stated that I think the Courtney Love murder scenario is intriguing. Something that always made me think that Cobain killed himself is that the last song he recorded in the studio (I think it's called "You Know You're Right") is basically a suicide note, if you look at the lyrics. In addition, my ex-fiance owned the Nirvana boxed set, and if you listen to the acoustic/demo version of the same song, it's seriously haunting. I firmly believe that Cobain killed himself.

Don't forget the other song Nirvana recorded just a few months before he died called, "I Hate Myself And Want To Die" which can be found on the Beavis And Butthead Experience CD.

[kane7474]

Well I still say its odd that a short time after that guy claimed Courtney offered him 50 grand to kill kurt he was found dead on the railroad tracks. Does anyone else find this strange? Keep in mind with Kurt doing songs that seemed to suggest suicide this makes a murder all that much easier. If you think about it alot of bands in the grunge era were making this type of music. If someone close to any of these musicians were to want them dead imagine how easy it would be to convince the public it was self inflicted. Im not saying that I beileve Kurt was murdered but it is very possible. Courtney controlled alot of money and when you have that type of wealth you can make all kinds of things happen. You have to remember she was nothing without him no one even knew who she was. If Kurt had divorced her she would be out of the limelight in no time and she knew it. With his apparent suicide though she is forever his widow and has creative control of Nirvana forever. She has made millions off of her royalty rights which she really should have no right to whatsoever. Now just think about how much she has benefited off Kobain's death and ask yourself if you can't beleive in the possibility of murder for hire here

[kane7474]

Originally Posted by JimmyHendricks

His name was Eldon Hoke, and he was the lead singer of some S&M metal band. In the books "Who Killed Kurt Cobain?" and "Love & Death", the authors make him out to be an intelligent, articulate man.

I've seen the documentary, "Kurt & Courtney", and upon seeing the segment with Hoke, I instantly knew that he was full of it. I believe his quote was something like "Yeah. She said she'd give me fifty grand if I shot him with a rifle." Typing it just doesn't do it justice. He was an uneducated, blabbering idiot. Much like Courtney's father, who NEVER met Kurt, and hadn't spoken to her in years, yet he was able to write a 500 page book called "Kurt Cobain: Beyond Nirvana" and claim he knew who killed Kurt. But wouldn't tell anyone......unless they paid him, of course.

I went into the film really wanting some hard evidence to show that Kurt was murdered, but left thinking completely different. All of the people interviewed were junkies, or former junkies. Dylan Carlson, Kurt's "best friend", had sores all over his face and was missing most of his teeth (common sign of a meth addict). Two women who said Courtney told them Kurt was going to write her out of his will could barely keep their eyes open. Totally uncredible.

The article CrystalDawn posted is interesting, but I still stand by my belief that Kurt ended his life. Sure, there's lots of intriguing evidence to support the opposite, but nothing that is groundbreaking. Much like Elvis's fans claiming that he is still alive, I think some Kurt/Nirvana fans just can't let go--or accept that that Kurt did the totally un-cool rock star act of suicide.

Ok you talk about the documentary only interviewing Junkies and drug addicts. Well keep in mind this is what Kurt was. Did Kurt have any educated intelligent friends that could shed light on what happened? Probably not. The man himself was a reject and prided himself on the fact so ofcourse when they interview people that knew him there going to be the same type of people as he was.

[RightOnDude]

Originally Posted by kane7474

Ok you talk about the documentary only interviewing Junkies and drug addicts. Well keep in mind this is what Kurt was. Did Kurt have any educated intelligent friends that could shed light on what happened? Probably not. The man himself was a reject and prided himself on the fact so ofcourse when they interview people that knew him there going to be the same type of people as he was.

that's true ... just because someone is a drug addict, it doesn't mean they're always full of it or unreliable. Unless that is, they see the opportunity for a payday by stretching the truth, and thus a big score later. In fact, I would dare say that junkies would be MORE honest than your normal human being, because their senses are so dulled...assuming they are up front about their habits, they really have no need to lie or cover up anything else.

In any case, I think that Cobain would have to have been really psychotic and MAJOR LEAGUE depressed to have killed himself. I mean, the guy was on the top of the music world, had money coming out the anus, had a newborn ... In fact, the only thing I can think of that he had bad in his life was a crazy witch fame ho of a wife. I mean, the guy was smart. Surely he knew he had enough money to get out of the business if that's what was truly causing him greif. But maybe someone wasn't willing to let that happen. Just food for thought.....

[Dislimb]

Originally Posted by kane7474

You have to remember she was nothing without him no one even knew who she was.

This is simply not true. As much as I cannot stand her, she was already very well known in the rock music scene of the late 80's and early 90's before she married Cobain. Before she was with him she sang for Faith No More (before Mike Patton joined) and dated Billy Corgan from the Smashing Pumpkins. It's not like she was just a regular chick from down the street before Cobain came along, she had been famous much longer than him.

[kane7474]

Originally Posted by Dislimb

This is simply not true. As much as I cannot stand her, she was already very well known in the rock music scene of the late 80's and early 90's before she married Cobain. Before she was with him she sang for Faith No More (before Mike Patton joined) and dated Billy Corgan from the Smashing Pumpkins. It's not like she was just a regular chick from down the street before Cobain came along, she had been famous much longer than him.

Yes she was around she was even in the movie Sid and Nancy beileve me I know who she was. However she was not even close to as famous as she became after marrying Kurt. The average person had no clue who she was until she got with him. Also if you think back her band hole was only succesful during thier marriage and right after his death. This was the point when she reached super stardom she had staring roles in movies like The people vs larry flint and Man on the moon. If you notice after the media frenzy around Kurt's death died down so did her carrer. You see Kurt avoided the media he avoided the press and that made them pursue him more than anyone else. With the press pursuing Kurt that way, they also came after her and she quite frankly ate it up. She is a media whore and will do anything for attention. Now imagine if Kurt would have left her where would she have been? The press would still hound him to no end but they would lose all intrest in her. Also if he would have divorced her she would have NO royalty rights to Nirvana and beileve me this is whats kept her going and will keep her going for the rest of her life. You have to ask yourself in a possible murder case if there is motive and who had it. I think the answer is obvious she had so much to gain with him dead you just can't rule out foul play.

[SitcomsAreTheWay]

As burnt out in the brain Courtney seems to be, I truly don't believe she had actually hired a hitman. We're discussing a person who had tried time and time again to kill himself. He was depressed, despondent, oh and let's not forget, suicidal. And I wonder how long it actually took Hoke to draw his conclusion surrounding Kurt's death which smelled like B.S. anyway.

Let's just hope Frances doesn't take after Courtney's behavior. I don't think anyone could ever tame THAT.

[LooksLikeCRicci]

What's funny is that I actually recall Courtney Love being more famous than Kurt Cobain at one point... or at least she was expected to be. I remember reading that she was paid higher advances on her records with Hole than Cobain got with Nirvana, before they struck it big, of course.

As for the argument that Cobain was on top of the music world and had no reason to kill himself, I'd actually argue that being on top of the music world gave him MORE reason to kill himself. Ih his suicide note, didn't he say something like, "It's better to burn out than fade away?" If that's true, it tells me that he would have rather killed himself than to have become a sell-out or a has-been.

I think the pressure of needing to produce #1 albums to stay on top of the music world just became too much for him. Kurt Cobain became the poster child for the grunge generation, and I think it weighed heavily on him. He didn't want to be a role model. He just wanted to play music. He didn't understand that he could have done both.

Wow. Sorry for the rant. Just my observations on it.

[kane7474]

Originally Posted by LooksLikeCRicci

What's funny is that I actually recall Courtney Love being more famous than Kurt Cobain at one point... or at least she was expected to be. I remember reading that she was paid higher advances on her records with Hole than Cobain got with Nirvana, before they struck it big, of course.

As for the argument that Cobain was on top of the music world and had no reason to kill himself, I'd actually argue that being on top of the music world gave him MORE reason to kill himself. Ih his suicide note, didn't he say something like, "It's better to burn out than fade away?" If that's true, it tells me that he would have rather killed himself than to have become a sell-out or a has-been.

I think the pressure of needing to produce #1 albums to stay on top of the music world just became too much for him. Kurt Cobain became the poster child for the grunge generation, and I think it weighed heavily on him. He didn't want to be a role model. He just wanted to play music. He didn't understand that he could have done both.

Wow. Sorry for the rant. Just my observations on it.

Well first off Cobain said in an interview that with their follow up album to Nevermind they were attempting to get out of the limelight. If you listen to that album you will see that is exactly what they were trying to do. That had to be one of the best selling radio unfreindly albums of all time.

They made the video for Hart shapped box as weird and out there as possible and it still became ultra popular on Mtv. Songs like Rape me and pennyroyal tea were not really what you would think of as top 40 hits. I think Kobain realized that he had reached that Elvis status meaning that anything he touched would turn to gold and it was obvious he would always be famous. So if the idea that he could never escape fame was why he killed himself then ok I can see that. Oddly though I remember an interview with him after his daughter was born in which he was saying how he had came out of depression and was much happier then ever before. It was not long after that he killed himself. I still say there is a good chance Love had him offed

[kadrmas15]

Hmm Kurt Cobain. I didnt actually listen to the music by him and Nirvana until I was well into my teens but I did like it. As a matter of fact it was some of the only grunge rock as I like to call it that I actually liked. I have heard that Kurt did have some very serious depression issues at points in his life and he also obviously had a very serious drug problem. This is obvious in the fact he probably used the Valium to calm his nerves. However I also had heard that after the birth of his daughter his depression in large part lifted and that Kurt was the happiest he had been in many years. Obviously he had a major drug problem that he could not kick. Kurt I am sure did have a desire to get out of the business or at least to get out of the public eye. In 1994 Cobain and Nirvana were so huge they could make total crap and still have top hits. Someone earlier compared Kurt Cobain to Elvis in terms of how anything Kurt did would sell and would sell huge. I agree with this and think it is a good comparison. Yes, Courtney Love is messed up and to be honest sometimes I am surprised she hasnt OD'd yet or something. I think she was clean for a while but she started using again and has got in some major trouble the last couple years. Did Kurt kill himself? I honestly dont know. I just cant believe he would kill himself like that. I honestly think he was murdered. Courtney Love would also have a strong motive to recruit someone to do that because if Cobain divorced her she would be left out in the cold and would lose the money, fame and fortune.

[kane7474]

Originally Posted by kadrmas15

Hmm Kurt Cobain. I didnt actually listen to the music by him and Nirvana until I was well into my teens but I did like it. As a matter of fact it was some of the only grunge rock as I like to call it that I actually liked. I have heard that Kurt did have some very serious depression issues at points in his life and he also obviously had a very serious drug problem. This is obvious in the fact he probably used the Valium to calm his nerves. However I also had heard that after the birth of his daughter his depression in large part lifted and that Kurt was the happiest he had been in many years. Obviously he had a major drug problem that he could not kick. Kurt I am sure did have a desire to get out of the business or at least to get out of the public eye. In 1994 Cobain and Nirvana were so huge they could make total crap and still have top hits. Someone earlier compared Kurt Cobain to Elvis in terms of how anything Kurt did would sell and would sell huge. I agree with this and think it is a good comparison. Yes, Courtney Love is messed up and to be honest sometimes I am surprised she hasnt OD'd yet or something. I think she was clean for a while but she started using again and has got in some major trouble the last couple years. Did Kurt kill himself? I honestly dont know. I just cant believe he would kill himself like that. I honestly think he was murdered. Courtney Love would also have a strong motive to recruit someone to do that because if Cobain divorced her she would be left out in the cold and would lose the money, fame and fortune.

I couldn't agree more. As I see it in any murder case you must show a motive and it is very clear that we have one here. Now we must ask does she have the means? Well she had a great deal of wealth and we all know that with the right amount of money you can make someone go away. Just think about it no one was ever convicted of the murders of people like Jimmy Hoffa or JFK. Many people now beileve that Marliyn Monroe was murdered. Look at all the high profile unsolved murders that were obviously planned out by someone with a great deal of money and ask yourself if Kurt could have been killed? Look at his suicide note does it actually say "Im going to kill myself" even if it did it still could have been just a ramblings by him or song lyrics who knows. Kurt was an addict and this surely was part of his downfall. It is very possible that someone hired by Courtney could have offered him a high enough dose of heroin to render him unconscience. Then the murder could have easily took place then the note planted. That's how easy this may have been done.

[kane7474]

You guys should really check out this website www.justiceforkurt.com the information on there is mind blowing. The more I read into this the more Im convinced she had him killed. We mentioned Eldon Hoke here earlier did anyone know that he passed a lie detector test? Did anyone know the very strange circumstances behind his death? Apparently he left his house with a man he had just met, Eldon never returned home and the man was never seen again.

If you really read into this case you see all the things Courney has tried to cover up. You see all the lies and inconsistencies on her part. Tom Grant for the most part has publicly accused Love of Cobain's murder and she doesnt even bother to sue? Maybe the reason she has not sued him for libel is that she would have to prove in court that his claims were false. Maybe she knows that his claims are not false and doesn't want that to come out in court.

Tom Cruise was able to succesfully sue a media publication for claiming he was gay and Courtney can't nail someone for accusing her of the murder of her husband? There is simply too much here to ignore the evidence against her is so strong. Reading on that website was a real eye opener to me I had never heard of this Cali guy that lived at Kurt's house that Courtney gave 30 grand to.... supposedly to get into rehab? This guy admits to being at the house near the time of Kurt's death. I had never heard of that before.

To me Courtney had the motive and the means. She has mounted no defense in the face of all these accusations instead she has tried to stop movies like Kurt and Courtney from coming out. She has threatned to sue people for speaking out but never done so. Why has she not funded her own private invetigation to counter Tom Grant's claims? Hell even OJ did that once his trial ended. Anyhow anyone interested in this case should really check that website there is alot of info on there

[LooksLikeCRicci]

Originally Posted by kane7474

We mentioned Eldon Hoke here earlier did anyone know that he passed a lie detector test?

Tom Grant for the most part has publicly accused Love of Cobain's murder and she doesnt even bother to sue? Maybe the reason she has not sued him for libel is that she would have to prove in court that his claims were false. Maybe she knows that his claims are not false and doesn't want that to come out in court.

To me Courtney had the motive and the means. She has mounted no defense in the face of all these accusations instead she has tried to stop movies like Kurt and Courtney from coming out. She has threatned to sue people for speaking out but never done so. Why has she not funded her own private invetigation to counter Tom Grant's claims? Hell even OJ did that once his trial ended. Anyhow anyone interested in this case should really check that website there is alot of info on there

You raise some interesting points. I'll start by saying that I found Eldon Hoke to be an interesting character. He had a hell of a story to tell, but I'm not sure if I believe it. IT IS POSSIBLE to pass a lie detector test while lying. There are ways to beat that system, so the fact that he passed a lie detector test doesn't do much for me. As to the circumstances surrounding his death, I'll just throw this out there: Eldon Hoke wasn't the most upstanding citizen in the world. He was downright shady. Who's to say that the circumstances surrounding his death had ANYTHING to do with the Courtney Love theory?

I'm not saying that I think Courtney Love is totally innocent (her behavior during Kurt's disappearance and suicide was strange, but she's strange...) but perhaps the reason that she isn't attacking the claims that she had Kurt murdered is because SHE'S INNOCENT, not to mention a media whore. Think about it. To someone like Courtney Love, who feeds on notoriety, even BAD publicity is better than NO PUBLICITY AT ALL. In addition, it's a basic rule of thumb that if you want to get people off of your back, the best defense is usually no defense. You defend yourself from ONE claim, and suddenly a bunch of others pop up. You use the example of Tom Cruise. How many times has he been accused of being gay now? I've lost count. You don't think that the claims have anything to do with the fact that Tom Cruise will respond to them, resulting in the publication getting their 15 minutes of fame? Who's to say that Tom Grant isn't out to get his 15 minutes of fame by accusing Love of murder?

In addition, in our country, a person doesn't have to prove that they are innocent. It's Tom Grant's burden of proof here. There's a lot of stuff that he brings up, but it's all circumstantial.

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, but I strongly feel as if Cobain committed suicide. You talk to the people that were closest to him, and the majority of them feel as if he did kill himself. They make no bones about not liking Courtney, but they feel that in the end, Cobain took his own life. Have you seen the documentary Kurt and Courtney by Nick Broomfield? Most of his family comment in the movie that they think he took his own life... I feel like that's pretty convincing evidence.