SOOOO whatever happened to Carl???

[gilligan fanatic]

Originally Posted by TVResearcher

Nope, Sounds like u had to be around in the fall of 78-lol

I don't get why TV One calls it uncut then? Seems like uncut would mean all scenes included. That is a ripoff then.

[TVFactFan]

Originally Posted by gilligan fanatic

Well that is a stupid thing to leave out. So if TVOne is uncut they still wouldn't air that scene?

It just says Florida's New Husband was moved to a Veterans Hospital near Chicago. So apprarently that was the explanation by the Network of Carl's absence back in 78, i guess no explanaton was needed for syndication.

[TVFactFan]

Originally Posted by gilligan fanatic

I don't get why TV One calls it uncut then? Seems like uncut would mean all scenes included. That is a ripoff then.

Matt they are UNCUT, the segment had nothing to do with the actual storyline, it was just something that was ADDED back in 78. The TV ONE eps are Uncut. Kind of Like the Mary Tyler Moore Thing

[gilligan fanatic]

Originally Posted by TVResearcher

It just says Florida's New Husband was moved to a Veterans Hospital near Chicago. So apprarently that was the explanation by the Network of Carl's absence back in 78, i guess no explanaton was needed for syndication.

I am confused. So was the scene where Florida mentioned him being in the hospital filmed or was that just in the magazines and guides?

[gilligan fanatic]

Originally Posted by TVResearcher

Matt they are UNCUT, the segment had nothing to do with the actual storyline, it was just something that was ADDED back in 78. The TV ONE eps are Uncut. Kind of Like the Mary Tyler Moore Thing

ok, I got what you are saying.

[Edster2973]

Originally Posted by Brian Damage

Esther Rolle wanted him written off, so they just pretended he didn't exist that final season.

Why did she want him written out? Seems to me she made such a fuss about wanting her character to have a husband for her children to show Americans that black fathers are just as potentially supportive as white fathers, and then she turns around and boots him off? Is this for real?

Perhaps she wasn't thrilled that John Amos was killed off, but there was no way that could be undone once Season 4 wrapped up. I agree it was wrong for the show to kill off John Amos, but to me, by bringing on Carl, it seemed like the show was at least trying to meet Esther Rolle halfway. Was she ever satisfied with anything?

Good grief, I hope this tidbit isn't true, for if it is, my already lack of respect for her is kicked down a notch. Talk about prima donna...


Ed

P.S. My guess was that Carl was written off in Season 6 simply because the actor, Moses Gunn, was pissed at the show for writing him out of Season 5 and he refused to come back. Think about it. He gets all geared up to join the show at the end of Season 4 and for the long haul, just to be told at the last minute that, due to his TV wife's battles behind-the-scenes, he's not joining the show after all. I'd be plenty mad, wouldn't you? I always thought that was the reason. Mind you, I didn't read this anywhere so it's a complete guess on my part. I'm probably wrong however...

[Ireneparalegal]

Originally Posted by Edster2973

Why did she want him written out? Seems to me she made such a fuss about wanting her character to have a husband for her children to show Americans that black fathers are just as potentially supportive as white fathers, and then she turns around and boots him off? Is this for real?

Perhaps she wasn't thrilled that John Amos was killed off, but there was no way that could be undone once Season 4 wrapped up. I agree it was wrong for the show to kill off John Amos, but to me, by bringing on Carl, it seemed like the show was at least trying to meet Esther Rolle halfway. Was she ever satisfied with anything?

Good grief, I hope this tidbit isn't true, for if it is, my already lack of respect for her is kicked down a notch. Talk about prima donna...


Ed

P.S. My guess was that Carl was written off in Season 6 simply because the actor, Moses Gunn, was pissed at the show for writing him out of Season 5 and refused to come back. Think about it. He gets all geared up to join the show at the end of Season 4 and for the long haul, just to be told at the last minute that, due to his TV wife's battles behind-the-scenes, he's not joining the show after all. I'd be plenty mad, wouldn't you? I always thought that was the reason. Mind you, I didn't read this anywhere so it's a complete guess on my part. I'm probably wrong however...

Ester wanted CARL written off. Not John Amos. She wanted the family to have a father and mother. Not a step-father. She had a right to say that I don't want any man to come in and play DADDY to her kids. Her kids were old enough to not need a step-daddy. As for Flo needing a man, she didn't need one either. Especially not an atheist one. As for Moses Gunn, I am sure he didn't sign a contract because if he had a contract for a season, he could've sued for breach of contract. He may have been told upfront abt the possibility of not returning.

[Edster2973]

Originally Posted by Ireneparalegal

Ester wanted CARL written off. Not John Amos.

I know this. It's pretty much common knowledge that she was upset that John was fired and killed off, although why she didn't refuse to work because of it is a mystery. Could it be that she sensed somehow that the absence of John Amos increased her value to the show, thereby entitling her to make more money potentially? More on that later...

Originally Posted by Ireneparalegal

She wanted the family to have a father and mother. Not a step-father. She had a right to say that I don't want any man to come in and play DADDY to her kids. Her kids were old enough to not need a step-daddy. As for Flo needing a man, she didn't need one either. Especially not an atheist one.

I hear what you're saying. What I'm saying though is that the killing off of John Amos was a done deal, especially by the time the end of Season 4 rolled around. There was nothing that could be done to undo the killing of James, unless the show did some Days of Our Lives stunt.

Esther probably complained about this ad nauseum, and as an effort to appease her and do right by the show, they brought in Moses Gunn's character and had him marry Florida. And still she wasn't happy? Goodness gracious, this woman was hard to please. I'd have lost patience with her as well.

Originally Posted by Ireneparalegal

As for Moses Gunn, I am sure he didn't sign a contract because if he had a contract for a season, he could've sued for breach of contract. He may have been told upfront abt the possibility of not returning.

Then why have him appear at all? You could be right about this Irene, but I don't think it's plausible (but hey, what do I know?).

I don't think they knew that Esther wouldn't return for Season 5. If that's the case, if they thought Florida would be around in Season 5, then Carl would've been as well. They would've been stupid to bring on another husband for Florida just to kill him off a couple of episodes later. It would've pissed off the fans as well as Esther Rolle. It also would have reminded the audience of James, something the show would'nt want in an effort to get the fans to forget about him. That way the audience could be convinced (or so the show thought) that the show was just as good without him. This couldn't be accomplished if James was constantly referenced or if other things triggered memories of him, and killing off Carl would've done just that.

(Case in point: The Hogan Family, formerly Valerie. When Valerie Harper was fired from the show, there was very little mention of her character, Valerie Hogan. Again, this was an attempt to have the audience forget about her as much as possible so that they could sell the audience on the show's new lead, Sandy Duncan. You'd almost think Valerie Hogan never existed!)

The producers may not have always agreed with everything that Esther wanted, but I don't think they tried to piss her off deliberately. It just seems the more I learn about what went on behind-the-scenes, the more it looks like she was very hard to please. The woman even found fault with Ja'Net Du Bois for crying out loud!

Part of what I find distasteful is her trying to pass herself off as some sort of spokesperson for the unheard 'black family'. Every complaint she had was about how the 'black family' was depicted, and how the members of her 'black family' was not given its fair due. But, and here's what Esther Rolle supporters conveniently forget, she always backed down from her pedestal when the show/network threw more money at her. It's like her activism had a price. She was willing to pose as an activist for the 'black family', but when her salary was upped, suddenly those issues didn't matter. She was willing to tolerate those injustices that the show caused for the 'black family' because she was paid enough. And we're supposed to think that the 'white' producers did the show a disservice?

Whatever...

Ed

P.S. Lest anyone doubt this, I am a fan of Esther Rolle's. I found her to be a truly great talent and she deserves all of the accolades that she's received for her work. But some of her behavior in the business side of things were a bit dubious at best. The same with Carroll O'Connor, another great talent who wasn't always gracious business-wise. I just want to say for the record that I acknowledge these actors' talent, but I don't think it entitles them to be a pain-in-the-booty, and that's what they were...

[Ireneparalegal]

as for Esther and her eventual return, the show was not doing well in the ratings and with the pending wedding of Thelma, it was thought best to bring the character back to help with the ratings. Obviously, we know nothing could save this show from this point.

[TVFactFan]

Originally Posted by Edster2973

I know this. It's pretty much common knowledge that she was upset that John was fired and killed off, although why she didn't refuse to work because of it is a mystery. Could it be that she sensed somehow that the absence of John Amos increased her value to the show, thereby entitling her to make more money potentially? More on that later...



I hear what you're saying. What I'm saying though is that the killing off of John Amos was a done deal, especially by the time the end of Season 4 rolled around. There was nothing that could be done to undo the killing of James, unless the show did some Days of Our Lives stunt.

Esther probably complained about this ad nauseum, and as an effort to appease her and do right by the show, they brought in Moses Gunn's character and had him marry Florida. And still she wasn't happy? Goodness gracious, this woman was hard to please. I'd have lost patience with her as well.



Then why have him appear at all? You could be right about this Irene, but I don't think it's plausible (but hey, what do I know?).

I don't think they knew that Esther wouldn't return for Season 5, otherwise her send-off would've been taken care of by the ending of Season 4. If that's the case, if they thought Florida would be around in Season 5, then they surely must have thought Carl would be as well. I don't think they would've been stupid enough to bring on another husband for Florida just to kill him off a couple of episodes later. It would've pissed off the fans as well as Esther Rolle. It also would have reminded the audience of James, something the show would not want to do in an effort to try to convince the audience that the show was just as good without him. This couldn't be accomplished if James was constantly referenced or if other things triggered memories of him for the audience, and killing off Carl deliberately would've done just that.


(Case in point The Hogan Family, formerly Valerie. When Valerie Harper was fired from the show, there was very little mention of her character, Valerie Hogan. Again, this was an attempt to have the audience forget about her as much as possible so that they could sell the audience on the show's new lead, Sandy Duncan. You'd almost think Valerie Hogan never existed!)

The show and Esther may have disagreed on many things, but I don't the show tried to piss her off deliberately. It just seems to me that the more I learn about the goings on behind-the-scenes, the more it seems that she was very hard to please. The woman even found fault with Ja'Net Du Bois for crying out loud!

Part of what I find distasteful is her trying to pass herself off as if she was the spokesperson for the unheard 'black family'. Every complaint she had was about how the 'black family' was depicted, and how the members of her 'black family' was not given its fair due. But, and here's what supporters of Esther Rolle's conveniently forget, she always backed down from her pedestal when the show or the network threw more money at her. It's like her activism had a price. She was willing to pose as an activist for the 'black family', but when her salary was upped, suddenly those issues didn't matter. She was willing to tolerate those injustices that the show caused for the 'black family' because she was paid enough. And we're supposed to think that the 'white' producers didn't treat the show fairly?

Whatever...

Ed

Esther came along during he AMOS and ANDY era and she was SMART ENOUGH to see that they were slipping in some of those Negative Stereotypes on the J.J Character. That was her Problem with the show

[Edster2973]

Originally Posted by TVResearcher

Esther came along during he AMOS and ANDY era and she was SMART ENOUGH to see that they were slipping in some of those Negative Stereotypes on the J.J Character. That was her Problem with the show

So what's your point? What you don't get Solomon is that her problems with J.J. and the negative stereotypes ceased to matter when she got her raises. I'm not putting down her argument. In retrospect, I'd have to agree with her. I just think she sold out because of a paycheck. Because she's Esther Rolle doesn't make it any less so. Because she's deceased doesn't make it any less so. The bottom line is she, like the white producers that she was complaining about, put money over principle. It wouldn't be nearly as bad if she hadn't been the one who started harping on the principle to start with. Talk about your double standards...



Ed

[Edster2973]

Originally Posted by Ireneparalegal

as for Esther and her eventual return, the show was not doing well in the ratings and with the pending wedding of Thelma, it was thought best to bring the character back to help with the ratings. Obviously, we know nothing could save this show from this point.

But if she left because of her issues, then no way would she have compromised those issues to help out the show because of poor ratings or because of Thelma's wedding. What got her back to the show was $$$MONEY$$$, not a resolution to her complaints. That's the point I'm trying to make.

And yes, it's sad that it's true nothing could save the show at this point, although I do think the ever changing timeslot had something to do with it. The show wasn't that bad in Season 6...

Ed

[TVFactFan]

Originally Posted by Edster2973

So what's your point? What you don't get Solomon is that her problems with J.J. and the negative stereotypes ceased to matter when she got her raises. I'm not putting down her argument. In retrospect, I'd have to agree with her. I just think she sold out because of a paycheck. Because she's Esther Rolle doesn't make it any less so. Because she's deceased doesn't make it any less so. The bottom line is she, like the white producers that she was complaining about, put money over principle. It wouldn't be nearly as bad if she hadn't been the one who started harping on the principle to start with. Talk about your double standards...



Ed

But when She RETURNED the J.J character no longer said DYNOMITE!!!!!! AM I WRONG???????????

[Edster2973]

Originally Posted by TVResearcher

But when She RETURNED the J.J character no longer said DYNOMITE!!!!!! AM I WRONG???????????

Oh please, her issue wasn't with the word 'Dynomite' Solomon, but the whole 'characterization' of J.J., or so she claimed. If you ask me, I think the great Esther Rolle was a tad jealous of the attention that J.J. and Jimmie Walker got. This is understandable; she had the talent and worked her butt off whereas Jimmie Walker just lucked onto a good thing without having had to work hard prior to the show. Again, it's understandable. She was human after all. But no way can anyone sum up her entire issue with the show to one word ('Dynomite'). That's just a ditch effort to regard her as some sort of hero instead of the greedy opportunist that she clearly was.

To make an argument about the 'black family' and then to back down from that because of $$$MONEY$$$ means she wasn't out for the 'black family' as much as she was out for herself.

Hey, I don't blame her in one way. Perhaps I would've done the same thing. Hard to tell without having lived through it. But don't insult my intelligence by summing up the whole thing as being about J.J. saying the word 'Dynomite'. That's just plain stupid...


Ed

[TVFactFan]

Originally Posted by Edster2973

Oh please, her issue wasn't with the word 'Dynomite' Solomon, but the whole 'characterization' of J.J., or so she claimed. If you ask me, I think the great Esther Rolle was a tad jealous of the attention that J.J. and Jimmie Walker got. This is understandable; she had the talent and worked her butt off whereas Jimmie Walker just lucked onto a good thing without having had to work hard prior to the show. Again, it's understandable. She was human after all. But no way can anyone sum up her entire issue with the show to one word ('Dynomite'). That's just a ditch effort to regard her as some sort of hero instead of the greedy opportunist that she clearly was.

To make an argument about the 'black family' and then to back down from that because of $$$MONEY$$$ means she wasn't out for the 'black family' as much as she was out for herself.

Hey, I don't blame her in one way. Perhaps I would've done the same thing. Hard to tell without having lived through it. But don't insult my intelligence by summing up the whole thing around J.J. saying the word 'Dynomite'. That's just plain stupid...


Ed

Esther Rolle was TOO MATURE to be JEALOUS of Jimmy Walker. She just wanted Good Times to be like THE COSBY SHOW. What was wrong with that?????