Guys,

By all accounts for everyone who has researched I Love Lucy, it is well documented that Vivian Vance and William Frawley had one of the strongest and deepest anamosities toward each other ever heard or read about. They both despised each other so much. I have read/seen interviews about ILL that said that there were times that Vivian would become physically ill after rehersals or because of tensions with Bill on the set that upon driving home, there was at least one incident where she had to pull over, get out of her car, and throw up.

My question is, if someone can hate someone so much as for them to become physically ill just thinking about them, the tension between the two of them reall must have been a nightmare. What did Vivian do to Bill, or what did Bill do to Vivian that was so hurtful? Or did the two just hate each other from the get-go with no apparent reason. I would like more background on their "squabbles" if possible. BTW, I LOVED the zingers that they would swing back and forth at each other on the show! When I found out that they hated each other off screen so much, I think it just added to the chemestry of them as a couple on screen.

Jack

She hated the fact that America would think she could be married to someone that old. He made comments about her singing, as he was this barbershop quartet kind of guy, hey, he was a chronic complainer who hated everybody, he used to call Lucy and Desi names too, but yes, he really hated her when word got back to him about what she thought, that she could be married to that old coot! But they both paid for that hatred, Desi offered them a spin off show after ILL ended, which Viv refused to do, so Bill went to My Three Sons, and he hated her more now for making him lose the extra money he would have made. It's an extra plus for us fans to look at the shows now and spot scenes where they have to kiss or hug and you can see how hard it was for them. Except for the show where they prepare the apartment for The Ricardos anniversary, they had this long scene together and it doesn't show at all!

He was a chronic complainer who loved baseball more than acting on the show, but i forgot to mention she was a person suffering at home with a wife beater and many mental problems, so they had worse problems than not getting along!

From what I've read and seen in interviews with people who worked on the ILL, their hatred wasn't as deep as everyone made it out to be. I remember one person saying that they were just an extension of their characters--they kind of took pleasure in insulting each other, as Fred and Ethel did.

Yeah, you're probably right, these thins always get zaggerated in the press.

The accounts vary as to how much they despised each other, ranging from literal hatred to just taking some jabs. One book I remember reading related an interview with a man who knew them both, and he claimed that even though they were insulting to one another and talked derogatorially behind the other's back, that if one were in deep trouble the other would come from across the country to help. That is very doubtful, since I have not read anything else to suggest it was that way at all. But I also don't know about the account that when Vance heard of Frawley's death, she was having dinner with friends and she offered a toast to his passing.

But I certainly think Vance had more reason to be disgruntled than Frawley. She didn't want the role of Ethel, but apparently Desi Arnaz and her agent talked her into it. And then they wanted her to gain 20 pounds and to dress "frumpy" because Lucy was to be the gorgeous, better-dressed of the 2 by comparison. And then having a surly drunk, 22 years older than she, to play her husband, and many of the show's fans thought they, like Lucy and Desi, were married 'for real.' As if all that were not enough, in the scripts Fred makes more cracks about Ethel being old and fat than she makes about him, when he was a lot older and a lot fatter. Nevertheless, their characters 'worked,' and the show the most successful of that era. But I, for one, cannot possibly blame her for refusing to consider any spinoff series with 'Fred.'

Very well said! I have to get my hands on those two books about them, then again, i think you just gave a great synopsis with that post!

Originally posted by tdr
As if all that were not enough, in the scripts Fred makes more cracks about Ethel being old and fat than she makes about him, when he was a lot older and a lot fatter.

I never liked those cracks about Ethel being fat. Even though the script was not talking about Viv directly, it can still be very damaging to her self esteem. Look at Tracey Gold from "Growing Pains". She developed an dangerous eating disorder because the script was joking about her being chubby.

Yes, but, it's not a script that will bring out those problems, there are underlying problems that have never been dealt with that her the cause for Ms. Gold and for Viv too, deep mental problems and spousal abuse for Viv, among other things.

Originally posted by Ricardos4ever


I never liked those cracks about Ethel being fat. Even though the script was not talking about Viv directly, it can still be very damaging to her self esteem. Look at Tracey Gold from "Growing Pains". She developed an dangerous eating disorder because the script was joking about her being chubby.

Remember that scene at the beginning of Lucy Makes Room for Danny where Lucy and Ricky are struggling to close the suitcase, then Ethel walks in looking absolutely svelt, sits on the suitcase, and it closes instantly. The audience laughs as usual because fat Ethel manages to close the suitcase. The thing is, at that point, Vivian looked skinnier than Lucille Ball.

Originally posted by SPLAIN
Yeah, you're probably right, these thins always get zaggerated in the press.

I remember one of the Livingston brothers from My Three Sons recounting a story (at a recent Lucy convention) about a time when William Frawley got him to sneak with him into the studio where The Lucy Show was shot (which was close by the My Three Sons soundstage). The Lucy Show cast was busy rehearsing their next show. Frawley and this Livingston boy had a bunch of metal film reel containers and were hiding in the dark under the bleachers in the studio. At the precise moment when Vivian started reading her lines in rehearsal, Frawley gave the signal for the two of them to drop all the metal containers they were holding, creating tremendous noise and, of course, interrupting Vivian and throwing her off. Frawley and Livingston took off, sight unseen, but could hear Vivian screaming "Bill! Bill! Where are you?!" Even though she couldn't see him, she knew exactly who the troublemaker was.

Isn't that a FUNNY story Jane, thanks so much for posting it, i can just see that old coot running away laughing.

Even though they hated each other so much,they made 'I Love Lucy' one of the best shows in America,so they had to work out there problems somehow...or the show wouldn't have gone on for so long!

They didn't HIDE it that well, if you look at the shows now that we know about their little feud, you always notice that they can hardly get close to one another in kissing or snuggling scenes.

Which is funny really. By all accounts Pierce Brosnan and Stephanie Zimbalist hated each other just as much when they were doing Remington Steele, but you'd never notice it to watch them together. They really look like they're in love. That edginess to Ethel and Fred's relationship works though, doesn't it. Fred's supposed to be testy, anyway. He's much more relaxed with Ricky than he is with Ethel, and I think that's the way it should be for his character.

All that about Ethel though. She wasn't fat, and she never was. No wonder the poor woman would sometimes take offence! I don't why she worried that people would think she was the same age as Fred though. She's obviously a lot younger. I always thought of it as Fred having married a much younger woman.

:wave:

Yes,I'll watch closely next time.Even though they disliked each other very much,and even though it showed,I'm glad they could come together and make a great show.I don't know if the show would have done so well without them.I agree with you Jack1000 Ethel never was fat,in some of the sceens she and Lucy look about the same size.

Totally agree, they might have had difficulty hiding their hatred of one another, but they were both perfect in those roles, nobody could have played either role any better! When you remember that the Ethel role was supposed to be FRUMPY and Barbara Pepper was the perfect example of that, Viv had to work with that pain in the derriere Bill who hated everybody, that couldn't have been easy, then again, Bill created the type of character that we then saw become a staple in all comedy series, the father on Raymond being the latest example. We all love somebody who tells people exactly what they think, without fear!

I did read they didn't care for one another but there are scenes where Ethel hangs on to Fred with her arms around his shoulders. I would think if they didn't get along they couldn't have stand doing the role. Another actor or actress would have done the part . In many scenes they look like they adore each other.
The second European episode was I'd say they were the lovieist doviest. "THe lovebug has bitten my Freddy" I always thought that was a little crazy. I expected Lucy and Ethel to have fun while Rick played in the band.

I just found out 2 weeks ago that they hated eachother in real life that much. I never knew.

About VV's weight...

I seem to recall hearing that LB had a contract clause for VV that said she must remain heavier than LB by 15 lbs. That would keep the audience in "Love with Lucy," and put VV in a secondary position. However, when the Lucy Show came on, VV and LB were good friends and there was no worry about it anymore. It seems as though EVERYONE from ILL had problems... VV and WF, LB and DA, VV and LB... the list goes on...

About VV and WF...

I always heard that WF was a major alcoholic. I remember seeing and interview with DA and he said that if WF didn't drink, his hands would shake uncontrollablly. That's why you often see him with his hands in his pockets. I've noticed in episodes before that his hands would shake really bad when they were out, then he would tuck them into his pockets. I'm sure the booze didn't help matters any.

She plain and simply didn't like him, He couldn't stand her and she couldn't stand him. From the Moment the saw each other the hostility on both parts was apparent, and neither of them made any efforts to try and hide it. Simply they were doing a job, and they managed to make pretty decent comedy together.

~Maria