How was this episode for everyone? Was it what you hoped?

Not even close. The worst Lilith episode I've ever seen.

It would have been so much better without that last scene. I don't know what they were thinking, but UGH!! Lilith wasn't missing THAT in her life!

I was surprised that Frasier looked like he would have slept with her. It would have made the episode so much better.

Actually I think this was one of the better Season 10 episodes if not the best.As always Martin was the best part of the episode.

It was absolutely devastating!

Even if they didn't have a child... they could have at least slept together! The sexual tension was so thick, you'd need a knife to cut through it... *sigh*

The Albert stint was SO wrong. Just WRONG. Wrong, wrong, wrong. He is *not* what's missing in her life. Frasier is that void. I wanted her to realize that subconsiously she was missing and needing Frasier, so she developed the idea of *needing* another child as a catharsis, to convince herself that she needed another human being (ironically, one that was part of Frasier) to love her unconditionally, when really she was craving *his* unconditional love.

Yeah, that's what was happening, she just hasn't realized it yet. And hopefully, something horrible will happen with Albert and she'll realize she needs FRASIER, not his sperm!!

Well, I think the writers officially destroyed any possibility of a Frasier/Lilith reunion so to speak. I guess Albert will now turn out to be Lilith's new love intrest. I was a little disappointed with how everything turned out. It would've been nice to see Frasier and Lilith have a little sexual tension, instead of him going to a Sperm Bank.

it was a good episode BUT it sucked how it ended.Lilith and Frasier just havent realized that THEY ARE MEANT TO BE FOR EACH OTHER.And they cant hear me when Im yelling at the TV when Frasier said it wasnt right for him.It broke my heart I was so happy when he said yes but no.AND Albert?Come on how could she think thats whats missing in her life?lol sorry yes but Frasier and Lilith are supposed to be together forever

It seems like every Lilith episode supposedly destroys the possibility of a Frasier/Lilith reunion, but it never actually happens. Frasier said he'd never be attracted to her again after Room Service, but he totally would have slept with her last night if she'd asked him to. Hell, Lilith wasn't supposed to be in any episode after The Show Where Lilith Comes Back, and yet she's come back just about every season. (She wasn't supposed to be on past her first episode on Cheers either, actually.)

I don't think the Albert thing is going anywhere. When she was on the Caroline Rhea show today, Bebe sounded less than thrilled about that prospect.

Being in the UK, I can never add to the discussion about new episodes when the topics are hot, but I really wanted to say something about this one, seeing as it caused such an outcry a month or so ago.

I'm afraid I just don't get what the fuss is all about. I've seen every Lilith episode of Frasier and it seems blindingly obvious to me that Frasier and Lilith ARE NOT MEANT FOR EACH OTHER!

In the earlier episodes Frasier was occasionally still attracted to her, but since Room Service, when he said he wouldn't be anymore, it looks as though the writers have stuck to that. Also, the times when Frasier did make a move, he always regretted it afterwards and felt stupid. Don't get me wrong, I really like Lilith, but surely it's been made quite clear that Frasier wouldn't want to be with her. Barely an episode goes by when he doesn't refer to their "awful" marriage. Even in "Lilith Needs a Favour" he referred to the fact that they couldn't stand being married to each other.

The message of the episode was that Lilith needed someone to love her, but it wasn't Frasier. And even if it was, there is no doubt that Frasier didn't want her. At no point in the whole episode was there any implication of him wanting to sleep with her, or her with him.

Frasier and Lilith have a rock solid friendship, a son whom they both love, and a great respect for one another. It doesn't look as though the writers want them to have any more than that, and it would go against the whole Frasier/Lilith history of the show if they did.

I'd seen some rumblings across various Frasier websites about this episode - I really liked it, even though it's not my favourite of this series. Although the only thing that sticks in my mind now remembering this ep is Frasier's initial joke about masturbation at the start of the Waiting Room scene in the Sperm Clinic. In the UK we had been led to believe that masturbation was confined to HBO etc. Glad to hear otherwise :o

Im sorry but I disagree. Frasier and Lilith are meant to be together.They just have gret chemistry and Lilith is probably the only one that can deal with Frasier. While Frasier is the only one that understands her. To put an end to this THEY ARE MEANT TO BE TOGETHER!

I LOVED that episode! I don't think fraiser and Lilith should be together. I loved the whole show from beginning to end.

Originally posted by Frasierfan1983
Being in the UK, I can never add to the discussion about new episodes when the topics are hot, but I really wanted to say something about this one, seeing as it caused such an outcry a month or so ago.

I'm afraid I just don't get what the fuss is all about. I've seen every Lilith episode of Frasier and it seems blindingly obvious to me that Frasier and Lilith ARE NOT MEANT FOR EACH OTHER!

In the earlier episodes Frasier was occasionally still attracted to her, but since Room Service, when he said he wouldn't be anymore, it looks as though the writers have stuck to that. Also, the times when Frasier did make a move, he always regretted it afterwards and felt stupid. Don't get me wrong, I really like Lilith, but surely it's been made quite clear that Frasier wouldn't want to be with her. Barely an episode goes by when he doesn't refer to their "awful" marriage. Even in "Lilith Needs a Favour" he referred to the fact that they couldn't stand being married to each other.

The message of the episode was that Lilith needed someone to love her, but it wasn't Frasier. And even if it was, there is no doubt that Frasier didn't want her. At no point in the whole episode was there any implication of him wanting to sleep with her, or her with him.

Frasier and Lilith have a rock solid friendship, a son whom they both love, and a great respect for one another. It doesn't look as though the writers want them to have any more than that, and it would go against the whole Frasier/Lilith history of the show if they did.

Did you ever watch Cheers? I could see how you might not think that they were meant to be judging form Lilith's Fraiser episodes but if you watch Cheers it's clear they're meant for each other.;)

But Cheers is OVER! And the story has moved on. It's like saying that just because Maris and Niles were married at one time and Maris seemed like she did love him at one time (at least she chose not to have an affair with her fencing instructor), that he should still be married to her. The writers weren't sure in the beginning of the show if they were going to have Niles get together with Daphne and so they wrote Niles as loving Maris and her loving him (in a weird sort of a way). But once it was decided that Niles and Daphne were to be further attracted to each other the writers turned the story in another direction. That is what they have done with Lilith and Frasier. It's the writers who are the masters of this situation and they have clearly shown that Lilith and Frasier are not meant to be together and won't be (and yet remain good friends and great parents). To bring up the Lilith and Frasier from Cheers is like living in the past and negating all the current history of Frasier. You can do that if you want, but it doesn't make it *true*. ;-)

Originally posted by cheers freak


Did you ever watch Cheers? I could see how you might not think that they were meant to be judging form Lilith's Fraiser episodes but if you watch Cheers it's clear they're meant for each other.;)

I haven't seen all the Cheers episodes with Lilith, although I've seen a few. The ones I saw showed their marriage to be somewhat less than perfect anyway.

But that's unimportant, because what happened in Cheers has no effect on 'Frasier' in that respect. The scriptwriters have made it clear that they don't want them together, so it's pretty unlikely that plotlines from a different show could have any relevance. :(

IMO: u need to look back at cheers before u can judge lilith now because if u just go by wat they say now then u will think she never loved frasier or some thing but u can tell she really loved him on cheers and who nows mabe they wont end up to gether but IMO the niles and maris relationdhip was diffrent how so i dont really no but it was and we can wish they would get toghether even if they dont but thats just me.;)

Originally posted by Valma
But Cheers is OVER! And the story has moved on. It's like saying that just because Maris and Niles were married at one time and Maris seemed like she did love him at one time (at least she chose not to have an affair with her fencing instructor), that he should still be married to her. The writers weren't sure in the beginning of the show if they were going to have Niles get together with Daphne and so they wrote Niles as loving Maris and her loving him (in a weird sort of a way). But once it was decided that Niles and Daphne were to be further attracted to each other the writers turned the story in another direction. That is what they have done with Lilith and Frasier. It's the writers who are the masters of this situation and they have clearly shown that Lilith and Frasier are not meant to be together and won't be (and yet remain good friends and great parents). To bring up the Lilith and Frasier from Cheers is like living in the past and negating all the current history of Frasier. You can do that if you want, but it doesn't make it *true*. ;-)
That's just it though! FRAISER is a SPINOFF from Cheers, if it was a different show and Kelsey Grammer played a different character than the one he's been playing since 1984 (3rd season of Cheers) and Bebe Newerth happen to guest star and sort of as a "cameo" then obviosly you can't expect any sexual tension or previous love ties. But with Fraiser and Lilith, we've all seen their relationship evolve since 1986 come on you've got to give that some credit! "Fraiser" may be a new show but it's still the same Character with the same feelings and ideals is it not? Than the sexual tension between him and lilith is RELEVENT! So i agree, and im not even that big of a Fraiser and Lilith fan (lol im a sam and diane type of girl....lol), that Fraiser and Lilith should be together and lilith not be discarded as just a past love interest.

~Maria

that is it exactly cheers will always be a part of frasier so of caures wat happend on cheers with lilith and frasier is going to be consiterd on frasier im not sure if that made sense but u no wat i mean right

Originally posted by DianeChambers87:

That's just it though! FRAISER is a SPINOFF from Cheers, if it was a different show and Kelsey Grammer played a different character than the one he's been playing since 1984 (3rd season of Cheers) and Bebe Newerth happen to guest star and sort of as a "cameo" then obviosly you can't expect any sexual tension or previous love ties. But with Fraiser and Lilith, we've all seen their relationship evolve since 1986 come on you've got to give that some credit! "Fraiser" may be a new show but it's still the same Character with the same feelings and ideals is it not? Than the sexual tension between him and lilith is RELEVENT! So i agree, and im not even that big of a Fraiser and Lilith fan (lol im a sam and diane type of girl....lol), that Fraiser and Lilith should be together and lilith not be discarded as just a past love interest.
~ Maria

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I have to argue that Frasier is *not* the exact same character he was on Cheer (and neither is Lilith for that matter). Just like Niles has evolved over the decade that the show has been on the air, so has Frasier since Cheers. It is quite plausible that Frasier sees Lilith in a very different light now (a more realistic one) than he did on Cheers. People do fall "out of love" owning to certain circumstances and I think that is what happened to Frasier concerning Lilith. Let's face it - things weren't all that cheery on Cheers for L/F or he wouldn't have ended up on a ledge threatening to jump. I always thought getting them back together on Cheers after that ledge "incident", was more than just a bit contrived (done because B.N. was cajoled to come back after she decided to leave) and never really fit with the proposed story line. How the writers on Frasier presented their relationship was much more realistic and acceptable to me. They are good friends, proud parents and *destructive* mates. Their marriage was destroyed when Lilith had an affair with the Frenchman in the eco-pod (and because of Frasier's ego and Lilith's overpowering personality). Sure, once in a while the lure of sex, or nostalgia or sympathy blinds Frasier (or occasionally Lilith) and they react poorly to their impulses, but in the end - in the cold, hard, dawn of *reality* - they eventually wake up during an epsiode and come to the realisation that allowing some of those illusory ideas to overtake them isn't the wisest course of action. The path and the struggle they take on that journey to "enlightenment" is what makes for the comedy (and sometimes the drama) of the show. We all know that it "ain't gonna happen" between Lilith and Frasier - the fun is watching *them* come to that realisation. :-))

Originally posted by Valma
I have to argue that Frasier is *not* the exact same character he was on Cheer (and neither is Lilith for that matter). Just like Niles has evolved over the decade that the show has been on the air, so has Frasier since Cheers. It is quite plausible that Frasier sees Lilith in a very different light now (a more realistic one) than he did on Cheers. People do fall "out of love" owning to certain circumstances and I think that is what happened to Frasier concerning Lilith. Let's face it - things weren't all that cheery on Cheers for L/F or he wouldn't have ended up on a ledge threatening to jump. I always thought getting them back together on Cheers after that ledge "incident", was more than just a bit contrived (done because B.N. was cajoled to come back after she decided to leave) and never really fit with the proposed story line. How the writers on Frasier presented their relationship was much more realistic and acceptable to me. They are good friends, proud parents and *destructive* mates. Their marriage was destroyed when Lilith had an affair with the Frenchman in the eco-pod (and because of Frasier's ego and Lilith's overpowering personality). Sure, once in a while the lure of sex, or nostalgia or sympathy blinds Frasier (or occasionally Lilith) and they react poorly to their impulses, but in the end - in the cold, hard, dawn of *reality* - they eventually wake up during an epsiode and come to the realisation that allowing some of those illusory ideas to overtake them isn't the wisest course of action. The path and the struggle they take on that journey to "enlightenment" is what makes for the comedy (and sometimes the drama) of the show. We all know that it "ain't gonna happen" between Lilith and Frasier - the fun is watching *them* come to that realisation. :-)) [/B]

You have a very solid argument. I just don't think that it's really your place to say to lilith and Fraiser fans to completely discard that relationship. I mean I understand what your saying and personally i've always liked Fraiser and Roz, but people who think that Fraiser and Lilith should be together do have a right to think that. I mean they were married and maybe to them it's all still there for those two characters, you might see it differently....The point i am laboring to make here is "to each his own". Some people like the relationship or the marriage that fraiser and lilith had (personally i loved it when she had Fraiser Whipped!), and they just want to see that love again. And maybe your right, they fell "out of love" in that case some other relationship will come along that will make us laugh even more, it all really depends on where the writers wish to take the show.

~*~Maria~*~

I said right of the bat in my original post that they could think what ever they wanted to (I just don't agree with their opinion at all and I stated my arguments why I didn't - that's all). I also am not saying that Frasier and Lilith's relationship should be *completely* disregarded at all (goodness, how things get twisted!!). I definitely think that their past relationship is an important componant of why Frasier (and Lilith) have a hard time accepting in moments of weakness that they really aren't *that* compatable as mates (although they seem very compatable as friends and co-parents of Freddie), but it is also that past history that often leads them to the wisdom of why they split. So definitely *don't* ignore their past - learn by it! :-)

I also said that because of their past history (throughout some of Cheers and *all* of Frasier) it is quite delusional to persist in the assumption that Frasier and Lilith will get back together (but I *know* some people like to fantasize about this - that's all right, as long as they know it is a fantasy). There is nothing to support this assertation - you *could* do it, but it doesn't really make any sense (it's like wishing Mel and Niles would get back together or Maris and Niles would). You can do it if you like, but is that really what the show is about? My husband has always thought that Martin and Dr. Mary should get together - he has a right to think that ... but does it really make sense as far as the story goes? I don't think soooooo. ;-)

I'm not sold on Roz and Frasier BTW, either. I think (unless the writers do some future tinkering with their characters) that Roz and Frasier wouldn't be any more compatable than Lilith and Frasier.

Once again they make great friends but their personalities don't compliment each other the way Daphne and Niles' do. I think Frasier is too condescending to Roz still (definitely *not* a good trait in a marriage) and Roz doesn't seem to have any passion for Frasier (but neither does Frasier for Roz). Granted a passion can be sparked (usually at the end of a writer's pen) and developed pretty quick in a sitcom, so it could change and there has been nothing overtly done or said (like it has in Lilith's case) that sets a prescient that would negate the probability of a Roz/Frasier coupling. We'll have to see about that... :-))

Meanwhile - anyone can *imagine* what they want (far be it for me to dictate anyone's thoughts - I really don't have that power, do I???) I'm just saying *in my opinion* there is some faulty logic floating around and some rational thought could help clear the air, if the show is going to attempt to make *any* sense at all - for me at least. :-))

like i said early er i along with chekadude and others a huge frith fans and no mater how there relationship turns out i along with others with always think and wish they would be toghether and we are aloud to feel that way

yay Maria! I agree with you. Just because YOU dont think they belong together doesnt mean that they dont belong together.well i can explain it but I know that I'll always be a Frith fan even if they dont get together at the end.

Yes... of course you're "aloud".

Good luck and happiness to both of you. :-))

ok, before we have to settle and b*tch brawls on here, let me say a few things. Yes, everyone has their own opinions, ad yes everyone is entitled to their opinions wth out being chastized for speaking their minds. Let me point a few facts to you "Frith bashers" as I have decided to call you.

1) I read in an article, that Frasier was originally going to be a Frasier/Lilit show- not just about Frasier. This leads me to believe that the original basis for the show would have kept them married.

2) Although I wasn't as pleased with the episode "Lilith Needs a Favor" as some were, any smart writer knows that you can't leave a storyline like that hanging- you have to go on with it at some point. If you leave it how the episode ended, it shows poor thought processing on part of the writer. Hopefully, the writers will be smart writers

3) Lilith wa a HUGE part of Frasiers life, and still is. Th past is something that can not be changed or taken away from them. Frasier can't end without something happening between the two of them- it wouldn't be right to the characters, or the actors for that matter

I hope I have made my point, and I hope my opinion is resepcted and not shot down like some other people on here. We just might be dreaming, but where would anyone be if they didn't dream?

BebeLilithFan154:
Let me point a few facts to you "Frith bashers" as I have decided to call you. 1) I read in an article, that Frasier was originally going to be a Frasier/Lilit show- not just about Frasier. This leads me to believe that the original basis for the show would have kept them married.
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Just so we can be clear about this - Where did you see this *fact* "that Frasier was originally going to be a Frasier/Lilith show"?

In Jefferson Graham's official companion book of Frasier the origins of the show are discussed at great length in the first chapter "The Frasier Story" (on pages 12 through 17).

pg. 14 -- "A few months after it (the Frasier/Lilith episode on Wings aired Grammer stopped by the Grub Street office and made an offer. "I'd be interested, if you were interested, in working together again," he said, adding that whether Cheers came back or not, "this is my last season. I'm tired of doing this character. I've done him long enough."...

"... they needed a concept all could agree on. Grub Street's first idea was that Grammer would play a magnate modeled after the late Malcolm Forbes, an eccentric billionaire running his empire from his bedroom after a motorcycle accident. The producers ran it by Grammer, who liked it, but found great resistance fro John Pike, the then head of Paramount's Network Television division... Paramount saw great potential in Grammer... offering him the deal for his own show during Cheer's *eighth season*... NBC threw around some possibilities, like giving Norm and Cliff their own show, or putting Norm on his own, as well as the idea of Frasier and Lilith... A few days later after their meeting with Pike, the Paramount exec ran into the producers at the Paramount commissary. "Kelsey will do Frasier. What about you guys?"

"Now that they agreed the show would be about Frasier, they had to figure out what he would be doing. They knew that it wouldn't be the Frasier and Lilith show, because Bebe Neuwirth at that point was concentrating on stage work and Grammer wanted the chance to fail or succeed on his own. "This is my shot," he told the producers. "I've worked for it for a long time."

I also heard this story confirmed on the DVD special features section by David Lee and Peter Casey (about the original concept of the show with Grammer playing the bedridden billionaire etc.). I don't think you can honestly say that the idea of Lilith/Frasier was a set concept for the show considered by the creators. It seemed to be only a mere suggestion by a few "suits" at NBC thrown out along with other scenarios, as a ploy to capitalise on the popularity of the Cheers characters (and it seems it could be possible that when this was mentioned maybe the writers hadn't developed the Lilith's infidelity story line yet). By the time it came around to creating Frasier it was obviously *never* even considered as a viable concept by the creators of the show, or by Grammer himself, and nothing was ever developed in that direction. In fact, it seemed like it was outright *rejected* in a very definite and clear manner, right from the start.

Just thought that I could help everyone with some *facts* about the show. :-))

BTW - I kind of resent your term "Frith Bashers" for people like me who have expressed their opinion about Lilith and Frasier. I really like the relationship that Lilith and Frasier have on the show. Just because I don't really agree with those who want to see them together again in an "intimate" relationship, doesn't mean that I am "bashing" anyone. I just happen to like the way the writers have portrayed the characters thus far, and think that it follows a certain logic developed over the decade long history of the show. To me, to change that dynamic would totally disrupt the continuity of the programme and the emotional base that has been so carefully nurtured over the last 10 years by some of the most well respected and well established writers in the business.

But I guess what ultimately is important is that we all enjoy Frasier (in our own way) and keep watching the show. :-))

Originally posted by Valma

In Jefferson Graham's official companion book of Frasier the origins of the show are discussed at great length in the first chapter "The Frasier Story" (on pages 12 through 17).




I have that book - it's great, isn't it? :D

I am totally with you Valma, on all those points! If Frasier and Lilith got together it just wouldn't make any sense, after everything that has happened on the show. If there was any sign of attraction, then I would have no problem with seeing them together. But there isn't - hence, they shouldn't be together. Simple as that. And I would say the same thing about Frasier and Roz, by the way...

Besides, this board is overrun with Frith fans, so what's wrong with redressing the balance a little? ;)