Of all the murder/suicide cases presented on unsolved mysteries that was ruled a suicide which one more than any other are you convinced was murder? Meaning not a single doubt in your mind.

Of all the murder/suicide cases presented on unsolved mysteries that was ruled a suicide which one more than any other are you convinced was murder? Meaning not a single doubt in your mind.

Keith Warren.

Generally speaking, I think most of the cases officially ruled as suicides were indeed suicides, or, accidents, and not murders. Often it seems the families don't want to accept that, and see what they want to see when it comes to "evidence" to support their alternative theory.

Generally speaking, I think most of the cases officially ruled as suicides were indeed suicides, or, accidents, and not murders. Often it seems the families don't want to accept that, and see what they want to see when it comes to "evidence" to support their alternative theory.

The majority maybe, but there are quite a few which appear to involve foul play.

Danny Casolaro, Charles Morgan, Ted Loseff, and Tommy Burkett are some cases that I believe are homicides. Keith Warren, too.

The majority maybe, but there are quite a few which appear to involve foul play.

Danny Casolaro, Charles Morgan, Ted Loseff, and Tommy Burkett are some cases that I believe are homicides. Keith Warren, too.

The guy who was a government worker that fell to his death from his motel
room back in the 50-60’s. I think the project he was involved in had something to do with LSD experimentation. I believe it was ruled a suicide. Or could of been ruled an accident. I’m not sure. His family thought he was thrown out the window.

The guy who was a government worker that fell to his death from his motel
room back in the 50-60’s. I think the project he was involved in had something to do with LSD experimentation. I believe it was ruled a suicide. Or could of been ruled an accident. I’m not sure. His family thought he was thrown out the window.

Frank Olson.

Some suspect suicide and accident cases: Rena Paquette, Mario Amado, Ralph Sigler, Bobby Fuller, Leroy Drieth and Robert Hamrick.

Norman Ladner was murder. The evidence supports that.

Rae Ann Mosser was an accident. The evidence shows she most likely could not have physically killed herself. I think she threatened suicide and she was accidentally shot struggling with her boyfriend.

I also agree on Keith Warren and Ted Loseff.

Joseph Daniel Casolaro was absolutely murdered IMO.

None of them.

I definitely think Keith Warren and Ted Loseff were far more likely to have been murdered than to have taken their own lives! I also think it's rather sad that their families seemed to look at the actual evidence far more diligently than the local authorities.

Keith Warren & Ted Loseff most definitely.

Casolaro, Morgan and Burkett are still solid suicides IMO (many arguments made in their specific threads are quite convincing)

Keith Warren is probably the only one but I don't think that was a murder. Just an accidental death that was staged to look like a suicide.

Keith Warren & Ted Loseff most definitely.

Casolaro, Morgan and Burkett are still solid suicides IMO (many arguments made in their specific threads are quite convincing)
Can you elaborate on which arguments for Casolaro, Morgan and Burkett you find to be convincing that they are solid suicides?

I forgot to mention Dave Bocks. I'd like to see the police photos of the "hog tied" stainless steel loops.

If Charles Morgan committed suicide (by shooting himself in the back of the head) he deserves the award for most elaborate red herring. Gail Delano just tossed her purse in a bush and disappeared. It took two years for her family to find out that she killed herself.

The Morgan-Casolaro-Johnston deaths are just too compelling to right-off as coincidences. In another 10 years, it will be a major motion picture starring Tom Cruise, ala "American Made". And speaking of that, compelling evidence has come forward that Don Henry and Kevin Ives were also murdered. Who knows? Maybe Norman Ladner met the same fate as them?

Also somewhat related to this discussion: I believe Dan Wilson and Patricia Meehan committed "suicide by prairie", or another way of saying they walked into the nothing.

Keith Warren is probably the only one but I don't think that was a murder. Just an accidental death that was staged to look like a suicide.

So how would a person 'accidentally' construct an elaborate system of ropes tied to at least two trees, consume some kind of strong drugs,change into clothes that their family members would have not recognized, then hang themselves?

Can you elaborate on which arguments for Casolaro, Morgan and Burkett you find to be convincing that they are solid suicides?


Casolaro
(starting near the bottom of page 3 and continuing to the end of the thread)

https://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?t=289011&highlight=danny+casolaro&page=3

If a CIA or some other highly trained assassin was responsible for killing Danny Casolaro, why would they commit to such a time-consuming, personal method of killing him, esp. when the risk of leaving DNA at the scene was so high?

(consider also that he was reported by hotel staff to have been seen under the influence, his time of death was reported to have been during the day--when any potential assassins could've easily been spotted--and he had painkillers with him)

Morgan
https://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?t=330638&highlight=charles+morgan&page=2

(see posts 21, 28, 29, 32, 33, 36)

Morgan was either into some shady stuff, on the verge of going nuts or some combination of both - take your pick. At some point however--probably fearing detection by government authorities--he made the decision to commit suicide but concocted an elaborate scheme to make it look like he was murdered so as to leave both his wife and children in the clear

Burkett
https://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?t=217055&highlight=Tommy+Burkett&page=8

(see posts 114, 117)

To me, it seems like constant bullying/torment caused Tommy to have a mental breakdown and finally commit suicide. There was far too much being left to chance & that didn't make sense, for it to be a murder.

So how would a person 'accidentally' construct an elaborate system of ropes tied to at least two trees, consume some kind of strong drugs,change into clothes that their family members would have not recognized, then hang themselves?

My best guess is Keith Warren had some type of accidental death (overdose) then the people around him freaked out and tried to stage his death as a suicide.

My best guess is Keith Warren had some type of accidental death (overdose) then the people around him freaked out and tried to stage his death as a suicide.


I don't agree but thanks for clarifying your belief here!

My best guess is Keith Warren had some type of accidental death (overdose) then the people around him freaked out and tried to stage his death as a suicide.

"Accident" ala Kurt Sova.

Casolaro/Morgan/Johnson for sure. Zero doubt.

Don Henry and Kevin Ives I just can't see how anyone could be lying down on railroad tracks and have the presence of mind to cover themselves in a tarp but be too stoned to react to a train barreling down on them.

Keith Warren is the one who first jumps to mind as obvious murder. Someone laid his already dead body down in leaves and then strung it up. Were drugs or any other possible cause of death found?

The other case I don't see mentioned here, but the guy's name was Bob which I suppose would be short for Robert. He went to put on athlete's foot medicine and was killed with his own shotgun by an intruder. The police claimed he took off his shoe to pull the trigger with his toe, case closed, like he was gonna commit suicide for having athlete's foot! Years later a confession came apparently from the intruder who was dying of AIDS. There was also a message from a psychic purportedly from Bob. I still think of him when I use foot medicine just like I think of Patsy Wright when I use NyQuil.

Keith Warren is the one who first jumps to mind as obvious murder. Someone laid his already dead body down in leaves and then strung it up. Were drugs or any other possible cause of death found?

The other case I don't see mentioned here, but the guy's name was Bob which I suppose would be short for Robert. He went to put on athlete's foot medicine and was killed with his own shotgun by an intruder. The police claimed he took off his shoe to pull the trigger with his toe, case closed, like he was gonna commit suicide for having athlete's foot! Years later a confession came apparently from the intruder who was dying of AIDS. There was also a message from a psychic purportedly from Bob. I still think of him when I use foot medicine just like I think of Patsy Wright when I use NyQuil.

I found this via Reddit thread regarding Keith's case:

From the 1994 autopsy:

The toxicology report found high levels of Trichloroethane (TCE) and Dichloroethane (DCE) in KEITH’S system. Low concentrations of xylene, ethyl benzene, and toluene were also found. TCE, DCE, and xylenes are used as paint thinners and solvents.

In 2011, SHERRI Warren contacted toxicologist/pathologist DR. MOHAMMED ALI AL-BAYATI to review the 1994 (toxicology) findings. He reported the following:

The concentrations and the pattern of TCE and DCE distribution in tissues indicate that KEITH received these chemicals at about 1-2 hours prior to his death via ingestion. They were likely mixed with alcoholic drinks and the actual cause of KEITH’S death.

So did Keith OD or was he poisoned?

So did Keith OD or was he poisoned?

I think the latter but not everyone seems to think so.

I found this via Reddit thread regarding Keith's case:

From the 1994 autopsy:

The toxicology report found high levels of Trichloroethane (TCE) and Dichloroethane (DCE) in KEITH’S system. Low concentrations of xylene, ethyl benzene, and toluene were also found. TCE, DCE, and xylenes are used as paint thinners and solvents.

All of these chemicals were consistent with the embalming fluids that were used at the time of the embalming process for Keith. I would get into more of this case but I don't want to be accused of being involved in the cover up of the "murder" of Keith Warren again.

All of these chemicals were consistent with the embalming fluids that were used at the time of the embalming process for Keith. I would get into more of this case but I don't want to be accused of being involved in the cover up of the "murder" of Keith Warren again.

Oh I remember that. That was ugly!

All of these chemicals were consistent with the embalming fluids that were used at the time of the embalming process for Keith. I would get into more of this case but I don't want to be accused of being involved in the cover up of the "murder" of Keith Warren again.

From the doctor who performed the 1994 autopsy:

Maryland’s chief medical examiner reviewed the report and claimed the toxic chemicals were part of the embalming process, but DR. MIHAKIS insists these solvents are not normal constituents of embalming fluids or decompositional effect.

Keith Warren

From the doctor who performed the 1994 autopsy:

Maryland’s chief medical examiner reviewed the report and claimed the toxic chemicals were part of the embalming process, but DR. MIHAKIS insists these solvents are not normal constituents of embalming fluids or decompositional effect.

At the time of Keith's death, Maryland law did not require an autopsy for cases deemed a suicide. And that was state law, not Montgomery county (which is insinuated as having helped in the cover up). And the medical examiner, not the police department, determined that an autopsy on Keith was not necessary.

Keith Warren's mother had a meeting with the MD Secretary of Health (you can read the notes from this meeting here (https://keithwarrenjusticesite.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/meeting-with-md-sec-of-health-1995.pdf)) and they were told:

There were two reports (Dr. Mihalakis' and Dr. Mason's); the pathologist reported no injuries to the body; the only mark was that of the ligature. This is consistent with Dr. Rogers' report (which also mentioned) maggots; (thus the) funeral home used SanVeino to delay decomposition. As for the other chemicals, benzene (wrong), toluene... in 1986 there was no (MSDS) requirement .. so it is likely they were contained in SanVeino...

If someone had subdued (Keith Warren) - but we saw no injury - we have no experience with the use of multiple chemicals... the use of two chemicals, maybe. it was more likely from the embalmer

Now what's more likely, that Keith was huffing multiple chemicals at a party (of which there has never been any evidence of) and had a freak reaction and died, and then the party goers (none of which have come forward in all of the years since Keith's death) staged his death to look like a suicide, or the chemicals found in his body were there because they were ingredients in San Veino (which was used as embalming fluid back in the 90's)?

Andre Jones.

I guess Norman Ladner would be a case that I do not think was suicide, but I do not believe foul play was involved. I still think an accident is a possibility.

I don't necessarily say it's murder, but I don't believe Rae Ann Mossor's death was a suicide, as they initially claimed, nor do I think the shotgun just "went off." I'm inclined to believe her boyfriend was out there and maybe was trying to take it away from her or whatever, and it discharged. Someone was holding it when it went off, and I'll never believe otherwise unless someone shows me a reenactment with a shotgun going off and landing perfectly on the trunk of a car.

I don't necessarily say it's murder, but I don't believe Rae Ann Mossor's death was a suicide, as they initially claimed, nor do I think the shotgun just "went off." I'm inclined to believe her boyfriend was out there and maybe was trying to take it away from her or whatever, and it discharged. Someone was holding it when it went off, and I'll never believe otherwise unless someone shows me a reenactment with a shotgun going off and landing perfectly on the trunk of a car.

Exactly what I think happened (and what the police would've figured out had they done a bit more digging and maybe dusted the gun for prints)

Keith Warren
Danny Casolaro

I could go either way on Norman Ladner.

Leroy Dreith. Multiple people saw him being threatened and harassed by his girlfriend’s family members just before he had the accident. It seemed almost like the police chose not to investigate any further once they heard some dope in the crowd of onlookers blurt out “He [Leroy] said he was going to kill himself.”.

I always kind of wanted to know who this person was that made this claim. If you listen, he say that Leroy had a fight with his girlfriend. How would he have known about the fight at Patty’s house? Was he at the party himself? Did he know Leroy or Patty’s family? The detail about the fight always struck me as an oddly-specific thing to have brought up without prompting by some seemingly random person.

Robert Dirscherl.

Very underrated case, IMO. And I am convinced he was murdered.

Robert Dirscherl.

Very underrated case, IMO. And I am convinced he was murdered.

I think the confession letter his son received was legit.

I can't believe that Dave Bocks would've willingly jumped into that furnace. That case has haunted me since I first saw it.

Leroy Dreith. Multiple people saw him being threatened and harassed by his girlfriend’s family members just before he had the accident. It seemed almost like the police chose not to investigate any further once they heard some dope in the crowd of onlookers blurt out “He [Leroy] said he was going to kill himself.”.

I always kind of wanted to know who this person was that made this claim. If you listen, he say that Leroy had a fight with his girlfriend. How would he have known about the fight at Patty’s house? Was he at the party himself? Did he know Leroy or Patty’s family? The detail about the fight always struck me as an oddly-specific thing to have brought up without prompting by some seemingly random person.

That entire ordeal was frustrating. I'm guessing it was a product of the time, happening in 1968. I don't see any of that happening today; a coroner deciding not to do an autopsy and labeling the death 'auto suicide' because of secondhand information the paramedic heard from a random stranger at the scene. And when the family questions this tactic, he immediately tells them to get over it? Nope. I just don't see that happening today.

Leroy was definitely attacked, ended up dying and Patty covered for her family members. There's not a doubt in my mind.

Ted Loseff-

Yes, they DID change the initial suicide ruling into a homocide but I can't help but think that had not his mother Zel been so determined to go over every picayunish detail of Dr. Loseff's last hours, the ruling would have almost certainly stayed unchallenged (not to mention that there likely wouldn't have been any investigation ).

Sadly, she left this world (at 101!) not finding out exactly who DID actually end her son's life (even though she found convincing evidence that his estranged wife Wilda likely helped set it up). Yet, I can't help but think she's gotten all the answers( and has been reunited with her son) since then.

At the time of Keith's death, Maryland law did not require an autopsy for cases deemed a suicide. And that was state law, not Montgomery county (which is insinuated as having helped in the cover up). And the medical examiner, not the police department, determined that an autopsy on Keith was not necessary.

Keith Warren's mother had a meeting with the MD Secretary of Health (you can read the notes from this meeting here (https://keithwarrenjusticesite.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/meeting-with-md-sec-of-health-1995.pdf)) and they were told:



Now what's more likely, that Keith was huffing multiple chemicals at a party (of which there has never been any evidence of) and had a freak reaction and died, and then the party goers (none of which have come forward in all of the years since Keith's death) staged his death to look like a suicide, or the chemicals found in his body were there because they were ingredients in San Veino (which was used as embalming fluid back in the 90's)?


Thank you for the well written and thought through opinion. To your point even if it was a accidental overdose, clearly Keith was not alone and it would have taken at minimum 2 individuals to hoist his body in the hanging position. Let's not overlook the elaborate rope configuration using 2 trees to complete the act that any season Detective would have notice along with the bent knees and the rope being caught up in Keith's shirt collar, and the leaves on the back of his shirt which should have raised a red flag.

Now let me state for the record Dr. Mihalakis in our meeting with him to discuss his finding did state that you can hang yourself from a doorknob, however the levels of chemicals in Keith's system would have rendered him incapacitated and he could not have mentally thought about the elaborate rope configuration let alone the mechanical aspect of how much to tie up and leave out to complete the supposed intention.

So to bring it around the Lead Detective either had too much time on his hands or he was totally incompetent, either way The Montgomery County Maryland Police department put their head in the sand and hoped this would go away. Now in my mother's opinion she believed that this was not the first or last case the this detective's behavior was questionable and the county covered up. My mother believed that due to the my brother's race the detective was bias in this investigation and his behavior (destroying evidence (cutting the tree down), losing evidence (the noose) ordering no autopsy and falsifying documentation (saying he spoke to me)) were all approved by MCMPD.

My brothers mental history albeit important did not play a role at 1:30pm on the afternoon of July 30, 1986. Per procedure Keith's body should have left that scene and gone straight to the county morgue or medical examiner's office not the funeral home choice of Detective Beasley. My mother should have been immediately notified. Detective Beasley should not have allowed to use information from a 3rd party undocumented, unrelated, un verified, unknown source to be used to validate a determination of suicide and then used that information to justify sending the body to the funeral home of his choice. The Police department confirmed the hearsay information in writing back in 2014. That information from MCMPD should alone be able to be used to reclassify Keith's death to at least undetermined. I thank you and everyone who continues to discuss this case to keep his issue alive while I continue to fight with the department to meet me halfway in reclassifying Keith's death in the police file and getting the death certificate changed.

At the time of Keith's death, Maryland law did not require an autopsy for cases deemed a suicide. And that was state law, not Montgomery county (which is insinuated as having helped in the cover up). And the medical examiner, not the police department, determined that an autopsy on Keith was not necessary.

Keith Warren's mother had a meeting with the MD Secretary of Health (you can read the notes from this meeting here (https://keithwarrenjusticesite.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/meeting-with-md-sec-of-health-1995.pdf)) and they were told:



Now what's more likely, that Keith was huffing multiple chemicals at a party (of which there has never been any evidence of) and had a freak reaction and died, and then the party goers (none of which have come forward in all of the years since Keith's death) staged his death to look like a suicide, or the chemicals found in his body were there because they were ingredients in San Veino (which was used as embalming fluid back in the 90's)?

Below are links to the private investigator findings and the actual report from the funeral home. I will step aside and allow the information to speak for it self with regard to whether the chemicals were introduce prior to death or in the embalming process. In short here is a quote from the conversation:

"The report for Pierce Chemicals/Royal Bond 7422 Bronze Way, Dallas, TX., was faxed to me on 1/6/95. Please note that this company, had purchased the Royal Bond company which was a company utilized by Collins Funeral Home, as per our investigation. They purchased the company in 1990. No changes have been made in these products since that time. When they purchased the company, they kept the recipe for the embalming fluids and cavity fluids.

The aforementioned chemicals in question can be used in a thousand different embalming fluids. We have on record that the embalming and cavity fluids used on Keith Warren at the time of his death, did not contain those chemicals.”

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AJQN7zcfiO_wLUGzGyCfVe5Z1rW0F6Zl/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xoolWCmzzdPfasxhyBn09MLK0qxoWQ6z/view?usp=sharing

All of these chemicals were consistent with the embalming fluids that were used at the time of the embalming process for Keith. I would get into more of this case but I don't want to be accused of being involved in the cover up of the "murder" of Keith Warren again.

I apologize if my comments offended you. That is not the intention of my response to you. In order for my comments to not offend or categorize any one comment I will use documentation to validate my argument.

In 1986 it was confirmed from the Medical Examiner that Detective Beasley made the determination of no autopsy necessary that is was a suicide (there is no rationale as to why and MCMPD have no reason but to explain it away as policy and procedure has changed due to this case), and then Detective Beasley sent the body to the funeral home of his choice. If in fact the medical examiner had made the determination of suicide the body would have been sent to the county morgue to be claim by the family and not sent to the funeral home choice of Detective Beasley.

Per my mothers investigation the chemicals used specifically for embalming Keith did not contain certain chemicals found at the autopsy performed in '93. Below are links to the documents to support my statement.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AJQN7zcfiO_wLUGzGyCfVe5Z1rW0F6Zl/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xoolWCmzzdPfasxhyBn09MLK0qxoWQ6z/view?usp=sharing

Robert Dirscherl.

Very underrated case, IMO. And I am convinced he was murdered.

Was about to post this one. The investigation was absolutely appalling. Pulling the trigger of his shotgun with his toe? Come on.

The UM wiki says that it's suspected that a neighbor may have been responsible (who later died from AIDS, something the mysterious letter writer claimed to have been suffering from). This neighbor allegedly was convicted of several burglaries. I'm wondering if it's possible if the neighbor decided to break in, perhaps thinking the family was already at church (as was their routine), and was caught in the act by Robert.

Thanks to the terrible investigation, it's unlikely this one will ever be solved.

Thanks to the terrible investigation, it's unlikely this one will ever be solved.

I found a news report from 2015 about the hopes that they would re-open the Dirscherl case, but both the medical examiner and the Sheriff's department were adamant that the case was a suicide. Everything that I can find online about this case is slanted towards murder. Knowing how biased UM could be, I am wondering what exactly was left out that perhaps did point to suicide, so I paused and read a screenshot of the original police report. It says that Dirscherl had an unsuccessful surgery and was in unbearable pain in his neck and spine for 3 years and that he was "very upset" at not being as active as he was prior to the surgery. He was also having a "bad" year in terms of sales at his company.

What I found most interesting was that his wife thought the sound was just a door slamming, and didn't check on him until 15 to 20 minutes after hearing the sound. His 14 year old son slept through the gunshot. 15 to 20 minutes is plenty of time for someone to kill Dirscherl and then flee the scene, so I don't know why the investigators are so adamant (even still to this day) that this was a suicide.