There are many other threads on Cindy James, but after reading Neal Hall’s book “The Deaths of Cindy James” recently, I want to start a new thread with some info that I don’t think has been mentioned before. I apologize in advance for how long this is…

If all you know about this case comes from the UM story, then you only know a very small part of the story. Neal Hall’s book was excellent and goes into great detail on Cindy’s history as well as the details of her death and the aftermath. If you get a chance to read it, I highly recommend it. The book is out of print but can still be found online. (Funny enough, it was $5.95 new, it had a $1.00 sticker on it from a used book store, and I paid $14.00 for it on Amazon… Oh, well.) I was hoping the book would shift my mind into the “she was murdered” side or “she did it all herself” side. There was a TON of new information to me, but honestly it only strengthens the case for both points of view.

I know dynoguy88 has read the Neal Hall book as well as the other book on Cindy’s case, so I welcome his thoughts on this. Also, RobinW did an excellent review of this case on his podcast, “The Trail Went Cold.” It is worth your time to listen.

Here are the key points that I want to bring up that I learned about Cindy:

1. Had significant “Daddy issues”
I have no doubt that Cindy’s parents loved her very much. But her Dad, Otto Hack, was very controlling (at least in Cindy’s mind) and they had an odd relationship. She seemed to imply that he was abusive and overly harsh. This also blends in to her overall relationship with men -- she didn't have long, healthy relationships with men. Cindy had wanted to go study at the university, but her dad didn't want her to go. He seemed to think women should serve in a more "traditional" role. Cindy’s dad was hell bent on trying to clear her name after her death. Part of this is because it was obviously his daughter whom he loved, but also because his Christian beliefs don’t allow for suicide as an acceptable manner of death. One thing that made me go “Hmmm” is that during part of Otto Hack’s testimony about Cindy as a young girl during the inquest into her death, her sisters both suddenly got up and left the courtroom. When asked why, they would only say it was “personal.” As we have discussed in other cases, one person’s parenting style is another’ persons abuse (physical or mental).

2. Did not take the separation from her husband well
There was a significant age difference between Cindy and her husband, Roy Makepeace (who was only 6 years younger than her dad). That alone makes me wonder if Roy was a husband of more of a “father figure” to her. Cindy had been dating and possibly engaged to a doctor prior to her husband, but that man was killed in a car accident. It sounds like their marriage was pretty good overall, but they did have their boiling points. Roy loved to sail but Cindy did not, and she seemed to have a fear of the water/drowning. After they were separated, they remained close and still went out together a lot. Cindy definitely had a love/hate relationship with Roy after her divorce. She left him and yet she felt “abandoned” by him. Much later, under hypnosis, Cindy had a “memory recall” of an event on an island while sailing with her husband. She remembered that she walked in on him and there were two dead bodies and a whole lot of blood. This became a recurring theme for her, although there was never any corroborating evidence of this story. Cindy even confronted her ex about this on the phone (while the line was recorded) but he gave no indication that it was true or that he was lying.

3. Had issues being intimately close to men, after her husband
After leaving her husband, she dated a few other men but never had a close relationship with another man. She was dating/sleeping with Pat McBride (the cop) yet she didn’t want to commit to him like he wanted to commit to her. After Pat, there is no evidence she dated any man officially (in spite of many suitors). Her many therapists concluded that she had intimacy issues with men. This could be due to the issues with her dad and/or the issues with her husband.

4. Had above average intelligence
While being tested during a stay at a psychiatric hospital, Cindy took many standardized tests. One of them showed her in the “superior” category for intelligence. What struck me about this was that it would probably take a very smart person to pull this off by herself. She was book smart and crafty, and a bit manipulative. This certainly doesn’t prove she did it – but she is far from just an average middle age woman. In a strange footnote, one of her sisters took one of Cindy’s purses after her death. When she got home, she found a glasscutter inside. Several of Cindy’s harassment incidents included someone cutting the glass to her basement windows.

5. Had significant issues getting regular sleep and likely had PTSD
At least two of the psychiatrists who examined Cindy and her case thought she very likely had PTSD. The event that triggered the PTSD was likely from early childhood, and was likely physical abuse, sexual abuse, or a horrible scene that Cindy witnessed. The evidence of this is strong, and also comes back to the issues with her dad. Cindy also had a HORRIBLE time getting regular sleep and had frequent nightmares, which are telltale signs of PTSD. This led to her not getting regular sleep, which I think caused her a great deal of stress. Anyone who has worked overnights or had a baby knows it is hell going for days on end without getting enough sleep. Chronic fatigue will lead to all sorts of other problems.

6. Kept a journal for several months that gives great insight into her state of mind
This, to me, was the best part of the book and it really gave a good view of what Cindy was thinking. She was troubled by a lot of things. Some were real, some were of her own creation. However, Cindy was a lovely, sweet, caring person who did a lot for her patients and the people she worked with. She loved to be with her dog and took great pride in gardening. She also had a lot of trouble opening up to and trusting other people, and she seemed to not be able to judge people’s motivations in their dealings with her. There were days she slept better and felt great, and there were days she was barely holding on. She had definitely had suicidal thoughts several times in her life. That doesn’t mean she wanted to die, but she was very troubled about a lot of things.

7. Abduction and death scene make no sense
Cindy went to the bank yet parked in the middle of the lot (not near the door, which was her norm). There were groceries in the front seat, yet none of the items were perishable and there was no receipt. (Also, the police couldn’t match the items she had with a cash register receipt from the store – odd.) Witnesses remember seeing someone matching Cindy’s description in the parking lot, but she did not appear in distress. Her bank card was found under her car, with a the paper bank receipt found under the card so it wouldn't blow away (the odds that it just fell like that are pretty bad). She was found two weeks later 1.5 km from the “abduction” site next to a fairly busy road. There are many signs that she may have been moved to this site or not been there the entire time, yet there are no signs of anyone perpetrator. She had a significant amount of drugs in her system that could have been ingested or injected. The coroner found traces of pills in her stomach so it is likely she ingested at least some of them. This would make the murder theory more likely. The knots could have been done by Cindy. She was found without shoes and none were found near her, yet her feet appeared to be clean.

8. Cindy withheld information
Duh, right? :lol: But it isn’t just what she held back from the police. She wouldn’t tell her family, her friends, or her therapist about events from a long time ago. It seems that something from her past caused PTSD and this was the root of her problems. No one was ever able to figure out what that event(s) were. In spite of many attacks, she was very vague with the police about the descriptions of her attacker(s). I know in the UM segment her mom said “She was told not to say anything or her mom and sister would be next.” That is total B.S. because the police knew the details of her attacks from the start. So this could be because Cindy knew her attacker and didn’t want to let the police know, or she chose to be evasive, or she was doing it to herself.

9. Something is up with the black stocking
Almost every time she was physically attacked, Cindy had a black nylon stocking tied tightly around her neck. This is either a calling card of the attacker or it has meaning to Cindy. Neal Hall cited a case of a woman from the US whose case was very similar to Cindy’s. In her case, there was a red bandana that kept showing up. In the end, it was proved this woman faked her attacks. Her issues stemmed from an event in childhood where she was raped by a stranger who stuffed a red bandana in her mouth to keep her quiet. The black stocking on Cindy's neck tied so tightly time and time again makes me think that she was remembering or reenacting some horrible past event.

10. She had mental illness, in some form
Whether it was PTSD, multiple personality syndrome, borderline personality syndrome, schizophrenia, or some combination, this poor woman was troubled. She had some sort of mental illness that could never be fully resolved. Whether the mental illness caused her to stage events, or whether the events caused her mental illness is obviously up for debate. It is just really, really sad how troubled this poor woman was and the fact she could never fully get the help she needed.

In the end, Neal Hall (who was very sympathetic to Cindy in his book) felt that Cindy’s death was due to suicide, however she may not have intended to die. It may have been another event to get attention or it may have been due to multiple personality syndrome. I thought the book was very objective and did not slant towards one side or the other.

So we are left with one of two conclusions: Someone hated Cindy so much that they devoted years to taunting her and attacking her, leaving her near death many times, only to finally kill her... Or she created these events in her mind and did them to herself for attention.

There were hundreds of events spanning many years. (While reading the book I lost count of how many times her phone lines were cut, not to mention the notes and threatening calls.) The other odd thing is that there were periods of many months were there were no events of any kind. Often, the events started up again after upsetting events in Cindy’s life (interactions with her ex, losing her job, etc.) If it was someone out to get her, just think of how much effort that would take on someone’s part. You’d have to really hate someone to devote that much time and years of your life to try and harass them. The same could be said for Cindy, yet if you are mentally ill I think that would explain a lot. The craziest thing to me is that no one was ever caught doing this to Cindy, yet she was never caught doing this to herself or setting it up.

I agree with RobinW’s conclusion on this, that it may likely have been a combination. I do think Cindy was harassed to some degree by someone at some point, but I also think she made up some (or many) of her events to get sympathy and attention. There is also evidence that she could have had a partner who helped set up some of the attacks, but who this person is and why they would want to do this is unknown. I just don't see a suspect who would do this for so long. Her ex husband was out of the country for some of the attacks, so it couldn't have been him (unless he hired people to carry this out).

In the end, I just feel horrible for Cindy and all of her family and friends. I can’t even imagine the hell they all went through for many years, and there are still no answers. Cindy seemed to be a beautiful, sweet lady who loved her job. I pray that in death she has found the peace she never could find on Earth.

I would love to hear your thoughts on this, especially from dynoguy88 and anyone else who has read Neal Hall’s book.

Thanks for all of the info!

Still convinced she was doing it all by herself and that there was no attacker.

I had leaned towards "She did it to herself" for a while, but the details you've mentioned, make me even more certain. It's the details about the glass cutter and the black stockings that really sway me. I think she just had deep-rooted issues and didn't know how or couldn't find a way to address them in a healthy manner.

She was murdered, and it always sickens me when I see people accusing her of doing it to herself.

I don’t know much more I can say that I haven’t already said before without sounding like a broken record player. The book is an addicting read. And despite many people not liking the way Neal Hall came across in the segment, his book is fair and balanced. Instead of choosing a side, he writes the facts of what were found and when they were found and lets the reader decide for himself/herself. The problem is I still can’t take a side. There is no way to conclusively prove one side over the other.

Regardless if she was really stalked then murdered or she somehow orchestrated the whole thing herself, I have a major problem with the Vancouver and Richmond Police. I think it was barely a year before they stopped believing a stalker was after her and once the attacks started happening, they pretty much faked sympathy to her face but felt none themselves. They didn’t fool her, though. She knew she wasn’t believed and that slowly drove her crazy.

So much time, money and manpower was put in place to watch her house year after year. Yet they always told her when surveillance was calling quits for the night. It was only at the inquest a year after her death that one of the officers said they wished they told her at times that surveillance was taking off but still secretly kept watching her to catch her in the act. They should have done that as early as 1984/85 when they stopped believing her. If they catch her in the act, they show that evidence to the police, to Cindy’s loved ones, and arrange for her to get the help she would need. Chaos and stress over, then everyone goes on with their lives. They didn’t do that. And it should not have taken them 7 years to come up with that idea. They couldn’t catch a stalker but they couldn’t catch her in the act either…over a seven year period.

A few incidents were written in the book that I don’t see how she could have staged. Robin mentioned them in the Trail Went Cold podcast. If she orchestrated the whole thing, the ability to keep evidence hidden from her family, friends and Ozzie Kaban is downright insane. All of those threatening cut and paste letters would have taken a tedious amount of time to make. And some of those letters she threw away without even opening. All of those dead cats being thrown in her front and backyard time after time is another disturbing thought. On one occasion, the police found out that one of the cats had been hit by a car. So your mind has to wonder, if she was behind everything, of Cindy driving around the city searching for roadkill to throw in her yard or her killing cats herself. She would have to pull this off after living with Pat McBride or Tom and Agnes Woodcock, who stayed with her for years because they were afraid for her safety. All of this and working full time, I don’t know how she could have done it.

The death scene will make your head spin, as we’ve discussed in the past. A squatter lived and cooked his meals less than 5 meters from the corpse yet he never noticed a body or any foul odor. The abandoned house on that lot was used as a party house by local high school kids. They frequently went to the squatter’s van and banged on the windows to harass him while he was sleeping and these kids had two parties at the house during the time Cindy was missing and they never saw a corpse either. If you combine that with the amount of flurazepam AND morphine in her system, I just don’t see how her body could not have been dumped where it was.

This case has haunted me ever since I first saw the UM segment as a 4th grader. I really hate that we’ll never know the truth.

is it still possible to DNA test those items that would solve this case?

Excellent post with a lot of interesting information. This is probably still the one UM case I go back-and-forth on more than any other. A lot of this info paints Cindy as a troubled person and points toward the mental illness/suicide theory, but I still believe Cindy did face at least some genuine harassment at one point which may have eventually caused her to have a mental breakdown and start staging her own attacks. There are other independent witnesses who did see Cindy receive some strange silent phone calls early on, though admittedly, no one else actually heard anyone threaten her life, so for all we know, those silent phone calls may have been as extreme as the harassment ever got. There’s also one incident where Cindy’s burglar alarm went off because the glass window in her basement door was removed and the Woodcocks verified that Cindy was in the room with them while this happened, but I will concede this could have been an unrelated failed burglary attempt which had nothing to do with Cindy.

You’re absolutely right about Cindy’s death scene not making any sense and that’s why I’ve always had trouble believing she could have staged her own suicide. The most troubling aspect is that no one can account for Cindy’s whereabouts in the two weeks between when she vanished and when she was found. It just seems impossible she could have been in the yard those entire two weeks without being seen and her body probably would have been in a much more advanced state of decomposition. So even if Cindy committed suicide shortly before she was found, where was she hiding out after she disappeared? I could believe she overdosed at another location and that someone else dumped her body there, but who?

If you have heard the "You're dead meat" recording (which was not played in the UM segment) you'd have a hard time believing it was done by Cindy herself, even if she had access to the voice-changing technology that was available at the time. I think she was murdered.

the fact that if a harasser existed he would have to be some kind of superhuman ninja to never get spotted and leave zero evidence behind everytime. I think she was mentally ill and then committed suicide, though I guess there is the possibility someone took advantage of her mentally ill state and killed her,

She was murdered, and it always sickens me when I see people accusing her of doing it to herself.

Have you read Neal Hall's book? (I mean that seriously -- not being a smart ass.) There is certainly no smoking gun that she did it herself, but there is a whole lot of signs that point that at least some of the incidents were done by Cindy.

Please keep in mind, too, that just because she may have done things to herself doesn't mean she CONSCIOUSLY did things to herself. I honestly don't think she did this intentionally as a lucid person. I think she suffered mental illness and possibly even multiple personality syndrome. I think she was troubled, on prescription medication, and sleep deprived. Often times after the events she had bouts of amnesia.

I can understand that you don't think she did it to herself, and that's fine. But it shouldn't anger you that people may think that as there is evidence to back that up. That doesn't make Cindy a bad person -- she was troubled and badly needed help. I honestly feel sorry for her.

is it still possible to DNA test those items that would solve this case?

I doubt it. However, with that said, I have no doubt if this case happened today it would have been very different. First of all, they would have better phone records and they would be able to trace the calls quicker and more accurately.

Also, there were cigarette butts at a couple of the attack scenes that weren't Cindy's brand. I'm sure those could be tested today.

But they never found any fingerprints, and as far as I can tell, never found any significant clues. The book said on the last attack they found "two gray pubic hairs that did not match Cindy's." Those could have been tested as well, but I highly doubt they still exist in an evidence room anywhere.

I doubt it. However, with that said, I have no doubt if this case happened today it would have been very different. First of all, they would have better phone records and they would be able to trace the calls quicker and more accurately.

Also, there were cigarette butts at a couple of the attack scenes that weren't Cindy's brand. I'm sure those could be tested today.

But they never found any fingerprints, and as far as I can tell, never found any significant clues. The book said on the last attack they found "two gray pubic hairs that did not match Cindy's." Those could have been tested as well, but I highly doubt they still exist in an evidence room anywhere.


so does the book explain such things as Cindy not changing her phone #, not changing her name legally, moving away to another city, leaving canada to USA with new name, perhaps having roomates or moving with other people say in a group home or having college students as roomates buying dogs

So much time, money and manpower was put in place to watch her house year after year. Yet they always told her when surveillance was calling quits for the night. It was only at the inquest a year after her death that one of the officers said they wished they told her at times that surveillance was taking off but still secretly kept watching her to catch her in the act. They should have done that as early as 1984/85 when they stopped believing her. If they catch her in the act, they show that evidence to the police, to Cindy’s loved ones, and arrange for her to get the help she would need. Chaos and stress over, then everyone goes on with their lives. They didn’t do that. And it should not have taken them 7 years to come up with that idea. They couldn’t catch a stalker but they couldn’t catch her in the act either…over a seven year period.

YES! This x 1000...

Granted, there would be times where months would go by without an incident. But you can't tell me they couldn't have done super-secret surveillance and either caught the perp or caught her doing it.

What blows my mind after reading the book is how many incidents there were. Whether it was broken windows, lights unscrewed, letters, calls, dead cats, etc., somebody took a lot of time to do this. Even if Cindy did it herself, it is crazy how much time this would have taken. I agree that you'd think at some point she would have screwed up and left cut up magazines and letters in her house.

The Woodcocks are very interesting to me. They spend an ungodly amount of time with her, often staying up until 3am playing bridge with her (since she couldn't sleep). They reported hearing things and being there when the burglar alarm went off while they were with Cindy. But one odd thing from the book, was when Cindy filled out an "autobiography" for the mental hospital. When asked to list her closest friends, the Woodcocks weren't on the list at all.

I agree with you, dynoguy88. I too have been haunted by this case since i first saw it and I don't think we'll ever know the truth. It is sad because it should have been so solvable. If the police had put in maximum effort earlier on, I think agree that we'd know one way or the other.

so does the book explain such things as Cindy not changing her phone #, not changing her name legally, moving away to another city, leaving canada to USA with new name, perhaps having roomates or moving with other people say in a group home or having college students as roomates buying dogs

Yes, and this is part of what is odd. She did change her phone number several times and got unlisted numbers. Yet oddly, she gave out her number to too many people (or the wrong people). She did eventually legally change her name from Cindy Makepeace to Cindy James.

Many people suggested she leave the country to get a fresh start and escape the harassment. She said something to the effect of "he'll just find me no matter where I go." At times she had downstairs renters, but yet never lived full time with anyone. She did stay with people from time to time but always came back to live on her own.

For someone who was terrified with fear and trying to end this, she did odd things like walk her dog at 3am (occasionally). That is one of the big oddities of this case. Even if she didn't do these things to herself, she didn't exactly do everything in her power to prevent it.

In another odd footnote, both her ex-husband and one of her sisters got weird, threatening phone calls after Cindy's death. They could have been just pranks but still... it makes you wonder.

As I mentioned in my first post, there was a similar case except this one involved a red bandana instead of a black nylon stocking. This is the case of Ruth Finley, and it is crazy in its own right, but also has a lot of similarities to the Cindy James case.

You can read a good summary of the story here. (http://people.com/archive/harassed-by-an-unknown-author-of-vicious-rhymes-ruth-finley-confronts-the-stranger-within-herself-vol-30-no-10/)

If you are interested in the Cindy James case, this is well worth the read. This doesn't prove anything to Cindy's case, but does show what can happen to someone who is mentally ill and the victim of childhood sexual assault, as has been theorized in Cindy's case.

Yes, and this is part of what is odd. She did change her phone number several times and got unlisted numbers. Yet oddly, she gave out her number to too many people (or the wrong people). She did eventually legally change her name from Cindy Makepeace to Cindy James.

Many people suggested she leave the country to get a fresh start and escape the harassment. She said something to the effect of "he'll just find me no matter where I go." At times she had downstairs renters, but yet never lived full time with anyone. She did stay with people from time to time but always came back to live on her own.

For someone who was terrified with fear and trying to end this, she did odd things like walk her dog at 3am (occasionally). That is one of the big oddities of this case. Even if she didn't do these things to herself, she didn't exactly do everything in her power to prevent it.



In another odd footnote, both her ex-husband and one of her sisters got weird, threatening phone calls after Cindy's death. They could have been just pranks but still... it makes you wonder.

If she changed her name and phone and moved say to Australia or Florida it's hard to believe he'll follow her there.

did she ever suggest she had an idea who it might be?

was there any suspects, jealous boyfriends, childhood bullies, etc?

so um did she ever travel?

when she was in another country or location was she harassed there?

did she own a gun?

were there ever any people living in her home before and after Cindy james and did they report strange events?

did she have life insurance and did anyone collect on it?

did she ever suggest she had an idea who it might be?

No. She also refused to believe her ex-husband was behind the harassment until the police pretty much browbeat her into accusing him about a year before she died. They even went so far as to convince her to call him and record the phone call in hopes of getting a confession out of him. But as we’ve mentioned before, the majority of the police didn’t believe her. So I’m not sure what they really hoped to get from Roy Makepeace.

was there any suspects, jealous boyfriends, childhood bullies, etc?

No childhood bullies. No jealous boyfriends. The only man she ever saw after the breakup of her marriage was Pat McBride. And he ended the relationship when she turned down his marriage proposal. It wasn’t long before he met another woman and married her. As far as any other possible suspects, the family could only guess it could be a disturbed ex patient from her first couple years of nursing or a parent of one of the preschoolers of Blenheim House, where she worked for about 17 years but it was nothing more than theories.

so um did she ever travel? When she was in another country or location was she harassed there?

She traveled often. She had a big family (two sisters, three bothers) and they were kind of spread across Western Canada. There were Christmas trips, a family reunion and her younger sister Melanie’s wedding. She also traveled out of the country numerous times. Her brother Roger worked for Canada’s External Affairs department and she took a two week trip to visit him in Jakarta, Indonesia on one occasion. There was also a 3 week Christmas stay with Roger when he started working for the Canadian High Commissioner’s Office in Germany and there were a couple more trips she took to Germany to visit Roger again over the next couple years. No harassment happened on these trips. She enjoyed them and felt free of constantly looking over her shoulder. She would always return from the trips feeling relaxed and refreshed.

did she own a gun?

She never owned a gun and the books never said if she was ever even encouraged to buy one. She never carried a knife on her or mace. She wasn’t even encouraged to take a self defense class, which I found odd because plenty of women started doing that in the 80’s.

were there ever any people living in her home before and after Cindy james and did they report strange events.

None of the people living in those homes were ever asked if there were strange events so we don’t have access to such information. But there was one reported incident towards the beginning of the harassment that was odd. A young couple lived in the basement suite of the house Cindy temporarily rented. On one occasion, they heard someone walking around upstairs a couple hours after Cindy had left for work. It disturbed them to the point that they called the police. This was before Pat McBride moved in and about a year before she hired Ozzie Kaban so nobody should have had access to her house. When the police investigated, they found nothing amiss.

did she have life insurance and did anyone collect on it?

I don’t recall any life insurance being mentioned in her name.

If you have heard the "You're dead meat" recording (which was not played in the UM segment) you'd have a hard time believing it was done by Cindy herself, even if she had access to the voice-changing technology that was available at the time. I think she was murdered.

Weird. I think the recording (which can be heard in The Trail Went Cold episode on her) is very clearly a woman making a poor attempt to disguise her voice. I have zero doubt that that is Cindy speaking.

Weird. I think the recording (which can be heard in The Trail Went Cold episode on her) is very clearly a woman making a poor attempt to disguise her voice. I have zero doubt that that is Cindy speaking.

I agree that it's most likely a woman. Keep in mind this message was left on her ex-husband's answering machine (so the caller called his house, not Cindy's).

There was also another strange message left on his machine after that stating: "Hey man. More smack, more downers. Another grand after we waste the c*nt." No more deals.” These seem to me like someone is trying to frame the ex or something like that. Cindy never blamed her ex for this, but her journal and therapy notes show a lot of anger towards him. She seemed to have abandonement issues.

The messages were sent to the FBI but analysis proved inconclusive.

Weird. I think the recording (which can be heard in The Trail Went Cold episode on her) is very clearly a woman making a poor attempt to disguise her voice. I have zero doubt that that is Cindy speaking.

219883

dynoguy88 thanks you've answered all my questions

i'm leaning to, she may have been burglarized and robbed, but the rest was she did it

is there a link for these messages so i can hear?

She had a mental illness. This was all her. As was stated above, she was angry at her ex-husband, so it seemed like a ploy to get attention that just went out of control. Like she initially did it for attention, then started believing it.

I have always wondered if the police, or someone in a very high position was apart of this. I know it sounds crazy, however, The way this person maneuvered undetected is really unbelievable. Some may say that in itself is a reason to think Cindy did this, But i think it's proof she didn't, IF the police stopped believing her so soon, wouldn't that make them quick to find any evidence they could in order to stop the investigation, so they could to prove she was making it up. How could someone working full time even have the time to do all of this?

I read the book this past winter and I think she probably orchestrated most, if not all of the incidents, including her death.

I was pretty impressed with Neal Hall's book. I thought it was impartial and dispassionate, which is pretty refreshing for a true crime work.

I agree with Todd that the journal excerpts were some of the best parts of the book. It was interesting to see Cindy kind of "come to life" through her own words. Shortly before her death, she had started a new job as a floor nurse in a hospital after having been in mental/behavioral health for so many years, and it was kind of cool to read about her experiences at work interacting with patients. Even though she was in a totally different area of nursing, you could kind of infer her previous line of work really gave her an advantage in understanding and helping her patients on the floor.

I read the book this past winter and I think she probably orchestrated most, if not all of the incidents, including her death.

I was pretty impressed with Neal Hall's book. I thought it was impartial and dispassionate, which is pretty refreshing for a true crime work.

I agree with Todd that the journal excerpts were some of the best parts of the book. It was interesting to see Cindy kind of "come to life" through her own words. Shortly before her death, she had started a new job as a floor nurse in a hospital after having been in mental/behavioral health for so many years, and it was kind of cool to read about her experiences at work interacting with patients. Even though she was in a totally different area of nursing, you could kind of infer her previous line of work really gave her an advantage in understanding and helping her patients on the floor.

so she killed cats in her free time and puts it in her home and um she has free time to cut out letters ?

so she killed cats in her free time and puts it in her home and um she has free time to cut out letters ?

I said most. Not all.

And I do think she made those threatening cut-and-paste notes herself.

I said most. Not all.

And I do think she made those threatening cut-and-paste notes herself.

not being too nitpicky but

I read the book this past winter and I think she probably orchestrated most, if not all of the incidents

if not all.

any ideas why she would do this to herself? :eek:

any ideas why she would do this to herself? :eek:

Read this article. (http://people.com/archive/harassed-by-an-unknown-author-of-vicious-rhymes-ruth-finley-confronts-the-stranger-within-herself-vol-30-no-10/) (I posted this earlier in the thread.)

It is a case eerily similar to Cindy's. I suspect Cindy may have been abused as a child like this woman was. Mental illness and/or trauma can make people do strange things as they struggle to cope.

Read this article. (http://people.com/archive/harassed-by-an-unknown-author-of-vicious-rhymes-ruth-finley-confronts-the-stranger-within-herself-vol-30-no-10/) (I posted this earlier in the thread.)

It is a case eerily similar to Cindy's. I suspect Cindy may have been abused as a child like this woman was. Mental illness and/or trauma can make people do strange things as they struggle to cope.

thanks for the story/link.

but if there were dead cats killed cats on her property is she doing it or is someone else doing it?

but if there were dead cats killed cats on her property is she doing it or is someone else doing it?

Her. If she was having a breakdown, and was staging all of this, then her killing cats isn't that out of reach. If she wanted her "stalker" to seem legit, then it isn't that out of character. She wasn't exactly behaving rationally, so her killing or finding dead cats and placing them on her property isn't hard to believe.

Her. If she was having a breakdown, and was staging all of this, then her killing cats isn't that out of reach. If she wanted her "stalker" to seem legit, then it isn't that out of character. She wasn't exactly behaving rationally, so her killing or finding dead cats and placing them on her property isn't hard to believe.

Yeah. My ex had a mentally ill aunt that somehow obtained a dead bird and put it on someone's door step once.

Yeah. My ex had a mentally ill aunt that somehow obtained a dead bird and put it on someone's door step once.

Yeah, there's a correlation between people who torture animals, and psychological disorders. It was said that three cats were hanging in her garden. I know plenty of people who kill animals who dig around in their garden, so is it possible that she killed them for messing with her garden, but hung them up to try to convince the police that she had a stalker?

Interesting passage I found from Psychology Today:

"In addition to these reasons, there are many types of IATC, including individuals who do it (i) as a religious ritual sacrifice, (ii) as an ‘artistic’ sacrifice (e.g., killing animals in films such as the controversial 'Cannibal Holocaust'), (iii) because they have psychological disorders (such as antisocial/psychopathic personality disorders and engage in deliberate acts of zoosadism), and/or (iv) because they have sexually paraphilic disorders (such as crush fetishism in which small animals are crushed for sexual pleasure). Additionally, there is some research showing that in some circumstances, IATC is sometimes used to coerce, control and intimidate women and/or children to be silent about domestic abuse within the home. Although any animal torture is shocking, arguably the most disturbing type of IATC is that which occurs amongst those with antisocial personality disorders."

EDIT: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

I've seen this case multiple times and it's always baffled me. After reading through this thread though, I agree that at least some of the incidents were staged by Cindy herself

Despite the seeming police ineptitude as well, I'll have to go from 'on the fence' to 'suicide'. Reason being, not only did the investigative journalist (and author of the book cited?) mention that she would've had time to tie herself up after ingesting the drugs, but that no clear motive or substantive evidence for her murder was ever discovered.

I know at the area in which she was found, there was no disturbance--no one heard or saw anything--and on this point, I really can't offer an explanation. Given how she died and the method though, I would think that if she was murdered, than she would certainly not be the killer's first or only victim thus far.

The killer was only targeting Cindy. There's no reason to believe she ran afoul of a serial killer.

I hope one day her murderer is caught, but there is the possibility that he has already died without paying for his crimes.

If you have heard the "You're dead meat" recording (which was not played in the UM segment) you'd have a hard time believing it was done by Cindy herself, even if she had access to the voice-changing technology that was available at the time. I think she was murdered.

Everybody thinks the dead meat message was a female voice. I think it sounded like a female also but I wouldn't guarantee it.

Everybody thinks the dead meat message was a female voice. I think it sounded like a female also but I wouldn't guarantee it.

Not everybody. I believe it was the voice of the male assailant who killed her.

Not everybody. I believe it was the voice of the male assailant who killed her.

It was definitely a female voice trying to sound like a male. I don't know any males who sound like that.

If that was a male then it was a midget who smoked 10 packs a day, and was kicked in the nuts before recording that message.

It was definitely a female voice trying to sound like a male. I don't know any males who sound like that.

If that was a male then it was a midget who smoked 10 packs a day, and was kicked in the nuts before recording that message.

Revisiting this thread to ask how so many have read Neal Hall’s book. It’s priced incredibly high (150 CAD minimum) on amazon and eBay. The other book on the case is at 500 minimum on amazon. Would love to be able to access these books somehow for a reasonable amount, but is it a lost cause?

There are many other threads on Cindy James, but after reading Neal Hall’s book “The Deaths of Cindy James” recently, I want to start a new thread with some info that I don’t think has been mentioned before. I apologize in advance for how long this is…

If all you know about this case comes from the UM story, then you only know a very small part of the story. Neal Hall’s book was excellent and goes into great detail on Cindy’s history as well as the details of her death and the aftermath. If you get a chance to read it, I highly recommend it. The book is out of print but can still be found online. (Funny enough, it was $5.95 new, it had a $1.00 sticker on it from a used book store, and I paid $14.00 for it on Amazon… Oh, well.) I was hoping the book would shift my mind into the “she was murdered” side or “she did it all herself” side. There was a TON of new information to me, but honestly it only strengthens the case for both points of view.

I know dynoguy88 has read the Neal Hall book as well as the other book on Cindy’s case, so I welcome his thoughts on this. Also, RobinW did an excellent review of this case on his podcast, “The Trail Went Cold.” It is worth your time to listen.

Here are the key points that I want to bring up that I learned about Cindy:

1. Had significant “Daddy issues”
I have no doubt that Cindy’s parents loved her very much. But her Dad, Otto Hack, was very controlling (at least in Cindy’s mind) and they had an odd relationship. She seemed to imply that he was abusive and overly harsh. This also blends in to her overall relationship with men -- she didn't have long, healthy relationships with men. Cindy had wanted to go study at the university, but her dad didn't want her to go. He seemed to think women should serve in a more "traditional" role. Cindy’s dad was hell bent on trying to clear her name after her death. Part of this is because it was obviously his daughter whom he loved, but also because his Christian beliefs don’t allow for suicide as an acceptable manner of death. One thing that made me go “Hmmm” is that during part of Otto Hack’s testimony about Cindy as a young girl during the inquest into her death, her sisters both suddenly got up and left the courtroom. When asked why, they would only say it was “personal.” As we have discussed in other cases, one person’s parenting style is another’ persons abuse (physical or mental).

2. Did not take the separation from her husband well
There was a significant age difference between Cindy and her husband, Roy Makepeace (who was only 6 years younger than her dad). That alone makes me wonder if Roy was a husband of more of a “father figure” to her. Cindy had been dating and possibly engaged to a doctor prior to her husband, but that man was killed in a car accident. It sounds like their marriage was pretty good overall, but they did have their boiling points. Roy loved to sail but Cindy did not, and she seemed to have a fear of the water/drowning. After they were separated, they remained close and still went out together a lot. Cindy definitely had a love/hate relationship with Roy after her divorce. She left him and yet she felt “abandoned” by him. Much later, under hypnosis, Cindy had a “memory recall” of an event on an island while sailing with her husband. She remembered that she walked in on him and there were two dead bodies and a whole lot of blood. This became a recurring theme for her, although there was never any corroborating evidence of this story. Cindy even confronted her ex about this on the phone (while the line was recorded) but he gave no indication that it was true or that he was lying.

3. Had issues being intimately close to men, after her husband
After leaving her husband, she dated a few other men but never had a close relationship with another man. She was dating/sleeping with Pat McBride (the cop) yet she didn’t want to commit to him like he wanted to commit to her. After Pat, there is no evidence she dated any man officially (in spite of many suitors). Her many therapists concluded that she had intimacy issues with men. This could be due to the issues with her dad and/or the issues with her husband.

4. Had above average intelligence
While being tested during a stay at a psychiatric hospital, Cindy took many standardized tests. One of them showed her in the “superior” category for intelligence. What struck me about this was that it would probably take a very smart person to pull this off by herself. She was book smart and crafty, and a bit manipulative. This certainly doesn’t prove she did it – but she is far from just an average middle age woman. In a strange footnote, one of her sisters took one of Cindy’s purses after her death. When she got home, she found a glasscutter inside. Several of Cindy’s harassment incidents included someone cutting the glass to her basement windows.

5. Had significant issues getting regular sleep and likely had PTSD
At least two of the psychiatrists who examined Cindy and her case thought she very likely had PTSD. The event that triggered the PTSD was likely from early childhood, and was likely physical abuse, sexual abuse, or a horrible scene that Cindy witnessed. The evidence of this is strong, and also comes back to the issues with her dad. Cindy also had a HORRIBLE time getting regular sleep and had frequent nightmares, which are telltale signs of PTSD. This led to her not getting regular sleep, which I think caused her a great deal of stress. Anyone who has worked overnights or had a baby knows it is hell going for days on end without getting enough sleep. Chronic fatigue will lead to all sorts of other problems.

6. Kept a journal for several months that gives great insight into her state of mind
This, to me, was the best part of the book and it really gave a good view of what Cindy was thinking. She was troubled by a lot of things. Some were real, some were of her own creation. However, Cindy was a lovely, sweet, caring person who did a lot for her patients and the people she worked with. She loved to be with her dog and took great pride in gardening. She also had a lot of trouble opening up to and trusting other people, and she seemed to not be able to judge people’s motivations in their dealings with her. There were days she slept better and felt great, and there were days she was barely holding on. She had definitely had suicidal thoughts several times in her life. That doesn’t mean she wanted to die, but she was very troubled about a lot of things.

7. Abduction and death scene make no sense
Cindy went to the bank yet parked in the middle of the lot (not near the door, which was her norm). There were groceries in the front seat, yet none of the items were perishable and there was no receipt. (Also, the police couldn’t match the items she had with a cash register receipt from the store – odd.) Witnesses remember seeing someone matching Cindy’s description in the parking lot, but she did not appear in distress. Her bank card was found under her car, with a the paper bank receipt found under the card so it wouldn't blow away (the odds that it just fell like that are pretty bad). She was found two weeks later 1.5 km from the “abduction” site next to a fairly busy road. There are many signs that she may have been moved to this site or not been there the entire time, yet there are no signs of anyone perpetrator. She had a significant amount of drugs in her system that could have been ingested or injected. The coroner found traces of pills in her stomach so it is likely she ingested at least some of them. This would make the murder theory more likely. The knots could have been done by Cindy. She was found without shoes and none were found near her, yet her feet appeared to be clean.

8. Cindy withheld information
Duh, right? :lol: But it isn’t just what she held back from the police. She wouldn’t tell her family, her friends, or her therapist about events from a long time ago. It seems that something from her past caused PTSD and this was the root of her problems. No one was ever able to figure out what that event(s) were. In spite of many attacks, she was very vague with the police about the descriptions of her attacker(s). I know in the UM segment her mom said “She was told not to say anything or her mom and sister would be next.” That is total B.S. because the police knew the details of her attacks from the start. So this could be because Cindy knew her attacker and didn’t want to let the police know, or she chose to be evasive, or she was doing it to herself.

9. Something is up with the black stocking
Almost every time she was physically attacked, Cindy had a black nylon stocking tied tightly around her neck. This is either a calling card of the attacker or it has meaning to Cindy. Neal Hall cited a case of a woman from the US whose case was very similar to Cindy’s. In her case, there was a red bandana that kept showing up. In the end, it was proved this woman faked her attacks. Her issues stemmed from an event in childhood where she was raped by a stranger who stuffed a red bandana in her mouth to keep her quiet. The black stocking on Cindy's neck tied so tightly time and time again makes me think that she was remembering or reenacting some horrible past event.

10. She had mental illness, in some form
Whether it was PTSD, multiple personality syndrome, borderline personality syndrome, schizophrenia, or some combination, this poor woman was troubled. She had some sort of mental illness that could never be fully resolved. Whether the mental illness caused her to stage events, or whether the events caused her mental illness is obviously up for debate. It is just really, really sad how troubled this poor woman was and the fact she could never fully get the help she needed.

In the end, Neal Hall (who was very sympathetic to Cindy in his book) felt that Cindy’s death was due to suicide, however she may not have intended to die. It may have been another event to get attention or it may have been due to multiple personality syndrome. I thought the book was very objective and did not slant towards one side or the other.

So we are left with one of two conclusions: Someone hated Cindy so much that they devoted years to taunting her and attacking her, leaving her near death many times, only to finally kill her... Or she created these events in her mind and did them to herself for attention.

There were hundreds of events spanning many years. (While reading the book I lost count of how many times her phone lines were cut, not to mention the notes and threatening calls.) The other odd thing is that there were periods of many months were there were no events of any kind. Often, the events started up again after upsetting events in Cindy’s life (interactions with her ex, losing her job, etc.) If it was someone out to get her, just think of how much effort that would take on someone’s part. You’d have to really hate someone to devote that much time and years of your life to try and harass them. The same could be said for Cindy, yet if you are mentally ill I think that would explain a lot. The craziest thing to me is that no one was ever caught doing this to Cindy, yet she was never caught doing this to herself or setting it up.

I agree with RobinW’s conclusion on this, that it may likely have been a combination. I do think Cindy was harassed to some degree by someone at some point, but I also think she made up some (or many) of her events to get sympathy and attention. There is also evidence that she could have had a partner who helped set up some of the attacks, but who this person is and why they would want to do this is unknown. I just don't see a suspect who would do this for so long. Her ex husband was out of the country for some of the attacks, so it couldn't have been him (unless he hired people to carry this out).

In the end, I just feel horrible for Cindy and all of her family and friends. I can’t even imagine the hell they all went through for many years, and there are still no answers. Cindy seemed to be a beautiful, sweet lady who loved her job. I pray that in death she has found the peace she never could find on Earth.

I would love to hear your thoughts on this, especially from dynoguy88 and anyone else who has read Neal Hall’s book.

Excellent write up, man! I have always thought she was doing this to herself. I have no idea why. Maybe for attention or to get her ex husband back. I do wonder if the “attack” that ultimately lead to her death was an accidental suicide on her part. Like, she did it to herself but did not mean to actually kill herself.

It is absolutely a sad, sad case for all of those involved.

I think with the cindy james case there are so many things that make you think all this was in her head, but there are many things that tell you it wasn't. the most interesting thing for me was how someone set her basement on fire, and her neighbor saw someone at the bottom of her garden, staring and then he ran away.

Her refusal to tell her parents what was happening was also strange, this was one of those cases that never really allows you to come to a conclusion, because theres things that support both that she was mentally ill, and that someone was infact stalking her.

you'd really have to look at her medical records before all this, was there any signs of mental illness before all this? and also her ex husband. i dunno, although the general opinion is that she was imagining all this, or that she had split personalities that were kinda at war with each other, i dunno i think i'd keep an open mind on someone stalking and then killing her. as i remember both the doctor who treated her and the private investigator believed she was sane, and not making it up, and she was also found in a way that many people believe would point more towards murder than suicide.

a fascinating case, one of my favorites from UM

I recently obtained "Who Killed Cindy James" from a great user on the board. I was previously very staunch in my opinion that Cindy did it all to herself. The only pieces of evidence in favor of a harasser that I could not explain were the phone calls when others were present in the house. But the book explains that while, yes, others were present in the house and did answer the phone to silent calls... only when Cindy was not in the room. (I think Kaban also answered a silent call when Cindy wasn't even at home). The BC telephone company were also able to confirm that some of the calls were made inside Cindy James' house. So overall the book so far, is all but confirming my belief that Cindy did it to herself.

However, I did come across this interesting passage just now:
Throughout 1988, everyone who knew her thought she had put the harassment behind her. That's why it was such a shock when two and a half years after the 1986 fire, on October 26, 1988, she was found unconscious in her garage. She was naked from the waist down and a black nylon stocking was wrapped around her neck. Her hands and feet were bound with a second black stocking.

Upon being revived, Cindy said she arrived home about 8:30 at night after finishing work at Richmond General Hospital. She said she sat in her car in her carport for several minutes to make sure everything was safe. But when she opened the door and stepped out of the car, she said she was grabbed from behind.

Shortly after midnight, Cindy said, she regained consciousness long enough to activate Kaban's panic button. Responding police officers found her sprawled half in and half out of her car.

Constable Jerry Anderson, a beefy mustachioed member of the RCMP General Investigation Section, was assigned the case and he proceeded skeptically. Although Anderson began his inquiries secure in the belief that this was another of Cindy's stunts, he was unable to prove that. His conclusions added to the mystery that surrounded the incidents reported by Cindy, and perplexed everyone but her family and supporters: they saw his findings as a vindication.

In the course of his investigation, Anderson consulted a knot specialist named Robert Chisnall, a young mountain climber who was pursuing a Master of Education program at Queen's University in Kingston, Ontario. Anderson sent Chisnall the roughly 18-inch nylon stockings used to bind Cindy and told him the RCMP needed to know whether the bonds could have been self-tied.

Chisnall's knotting experience was extensive. More than a score of knots he designed were used by mountaineers and spelunkers; others had been adapted by doctors for surgery, and he was a founding member in 1982 of the International Guild of Knot Tyers. He had written extensively on knots and been consulted by numerous police forces, rescue teams and others around the globe. He regularly testified at criminal trials as an expert witness, charging $500 a day (plus expenses) for court appearances, coroner's inquests or consultations involving travel.

Chisnall said the neck knot in the reported assault on Cindy was a simple granny knot and that her hands were tied using a series of hitches and wraps. He concluded that it was "highly unlikely" that she had tied herself up.

"There are no slip loops or other configurations that might have made the tying process easy for the complainant. I tried to simulate the tying [of the knots] on myself with similar material of equal length." But Chisnall wasn't able to duplicate the knots and concluded that Cindy "could not have tied herself in the manner described above."'

But he was puzzled by the knots. They weren't tight enough either to strangle her or to keep her bound for long. It was quite easy to slip out of the wrist knots.

Anderson was baffled. He had expected Chisnall to support the now prevalent theory that Cindy was a disturbed woman who fabricated assaults and other minor offences. Once again, suspicion arose that someone else was involved in the incidents that Cindy reported.

The suggestion that Cindy had an accomplice had been raised before, but dismissed because there was no real evidence. Friesen had often wondered about both Kaban and Cindy's ex-husband Makepeace. So had the police. There are documented cases of couples involved in sado-masochistic sex games.

Some had even been found dead after their kinky pursuits went awry. But in Cindy's case, there was no evidence to support such speculation.

The stockings themselves and Chisnall's opinion would become suspect after Cindy's death, primarily because the officers who found her unconscious in the garage had taken little care in removing them.

Chisnall's conclusions were far from airtight. Courts are leery of accepting evidence involving the comparison of knots and deductions made from the way knots are tied. And Chisnall's conclusions had been dismissed in the past by a judge for being little more than informed speculation.



Here is another interesting passage:

This passage is regarding the weekend she went missing, Johnston refers to a downstairs tenant of Cindy James.


Johnston liked Cindy, but he thought she was a little paranoid. She needed to relax. There were alarms everywhere, even though he was just downstairs. A couple of days ago, Johnston recalled, she had told him something might happen this weekend. "Something big,” she said. "We should get that fire alarm fixed." Johnston tried to reassure her and urged her to be more positive: "It's important to act, not react. Don't wallow in impotence."


I guess I don't have really anything to add, and I'm not the done the book yet, but it was a fascinating entry I thought I would share here, and I do think it's one piece of info that works in favor of a third party doing it. I suppose she could be just have been a victim of a random crime, but the black stocking makes it too much of a coincidence for me.