Anybody else enthralled with this case? I think it aired in 1992, I still have it on VHS.

I guess the overall point isn't so much of why Andre was arrested (whether he did anything or not) or even whether or not Andre was in a gang.

Just from a "devil's advocate point of view"

He was supposed to start college the following Monday morning - why would he just up and hang himself?

- He wasn't looking at any HUMONGOUS amount of jail time even if guilty of everything (he had no previous record, so slaps on the wrist and maybe community service and probation would have been about all he would have done)

- Gang member or not, he STILL COULD have attended college.
- He had no criminal record
- He had no history of depression according to his family.

- Hung himself with a shoelace??? (various inmates have said that was staged)

- Two coroners found two different death scenarios?

Just wanted to see if anybody else was flabbergasted by this episode..

Clear cut case of suicide to me. Always has been.

I've posted my thoughts here (http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showpost.php?p=4632594&postcount=12) and here (http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showpost.php?p=4632703&postcount=14).

ETA:

This (http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showpost.php?p=4899143&postcount=16) post in the same thread has a link to an article which has the pathologist interviewed on the segment (the one who says murder) concede that there were no signs of a struggle. He also never examined the crime scene photos, and was simply going off a description of Andre's body when he was found.

It is possible for a person to hang him- or herself with a shoelace, depending on the tensile strength of the laces.

But I've always thought Andre Jones was murdered based off the articles and documents I've read and the segment itself (which, realistically, should be taken with something of a grain of a salt).

His case really is a divisive one. It seems just as likely to be suicide as it is murder. Of course, the question to ask if it was suicide is: why?

http://unsolved.com/archives/andre-jones

I'm afraid it's not very clear cut at all...it is most definitely up for debate, as the evidence can point either way. Shoelace is difficult for suicide but it can be done. Steve W makes a good question-why?

Also, according to a comment below Jones' case synopsis at the bottom of the page, the pathologist that ruled in favor of it being a suicide (Steven Hayne) was later discredited and charged with perjury in other cases:


Here's the comment: "Steven Hayne was eventually discredited as a pathologist, punished for perjury & several murder cases were overturned or reopened bc of his "evidence." Whether that has anything to do with it, I don't know, but this sounds mighty suspicious."


http://unsolved.com/archives/andre-jones

Found this (https://books.google.com/books?id=4AQdowREOQsC&pg=PA14&lpg=PA14&dq=steven+hayne+pathologist+andre+jones&source=bl&ots=v6pQadLXJ9&sig=HOAW5NmrsJ-IlD-DPPYliah-4b4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiNicqItP_NAhVC7IMKHZAKB6EQ6AEIMDAD#v=onepage&q=steven%20hayne%20pathologist%20andre%20jones&f=false) article which said that at the time of Andre's death, 1/3 of all the suicides that occurred in jails happened in the South. Apparently, they were much more lax in attitude about inmate safety than other places in the country. The article also says that a gun was found under the seat of the vehicle Andre was driving, he was taken to the "toughest" jail in Mississippi, and that the pathologist was quoted as saying that you can't kill yourself by crouching down (Michael Carmichael).

Murdered.

How would you hang yourself with a shoelace without an accomplice? An 18-year old kid about to attend college with a girlfriend just up and hangs himself? Get real.

I wouldn't be surprised if a racist inmate or police office caught wind that one of his parents worked for the NAACP. NAACP means a lot of negative press, and a lot of heat, wouldn't be surprised if they killed him and labeled it a suicide so they wouldn't have to deal with the racist-charged press.

Found this (https://books.google.com/books?id=4AQdowREOQsC&pg=PA14&lpg=PA14&dq=steven+hayne+pathologist+andre+jones&source=bl&ots=v6pQadLXJ9&sig=HOAW5NmrsJ-IlD-DPPYliah-4b4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiNicqItP_NAhVC7IMKHZAKB6EQ6AEIMDAD#v=onepage&q=steven%20hayne%20pathologist%20andre%20jones&f=false) article which said that at the time of Andre's death, 1/3 of all the suicides that occurred in jails happened in the South. Apparently, they were much more lax in attitude about inmate safety than other places in the country.

I can think of a few - Orleans Parish Prison (actually a jail), in New Orleans LA and Pinellas Co, FL - that have notorious histories of inmate suicides, abuses and suspicious deaths.

How would you hang yourself with a shoelace without an accomplice? An 18-year old kid about to attend college with a girlfriend just up and hangs himself? Get real.

An article (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2015/07/17/a-primer-on-jailhouse-suicides/)about suicide in jails (also mentions Hayne).

The question is, why weren't his shoelaces confiscated when he was jailed? Unfortunately this situation can occur when jail protocols are weak. There's a higher risk of suicide in a heightened, shock and stress filled situation like being jailed, especially if this is the person's first experience of such, when your normalcy and support structure are suddenly taken away.

An article (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2015/07/17/a-primer-on-jailhouse-suicides/)about suicide in jails (also mentions Hayne).

The question is, why weren't his shoelaces confiscated when he was jailed? Unfortunately this situation can occur when jail protocols are weak. There's a higher risk of suicide in a heightened, shock and stress filled situation like being jailed, especially if this is the person's first experience of such, when your normalcy and support structure are suddenly taken away.

I'd buy his suicide more if he was given a life sentence, or something similar. Also, I understand thinking this was a suicide as this was his first time in prison and being scared to the point of taking his own life (rumors of prison rape, etc), but I don't believe it was a suicide. I read the article and while some were suicides you can't rule all deaths in that prison as a suicide.

I'm not believing that an 18-year old black teenager in a Mississippi prison who had two powerful parents in the African-American community taking his own life. I'm sure he thought his parents weight could get him out sooner than later. Read all the articles you want, but it doesn't match up with his shoe-string suicide, and the fact you had a black teenager in a Southern prison with I'm sure some hardcore racist inmates/officers.

This is a case where one has to use common sense, and not look through statistics and articles. Place a 18-year old black teenager in a Southern prison who had parents in two strong afro-centric groups grouped in with racist inmates, and officers and there ya go. And don't you find it odd how many times he called his mother while in prison hoping to get bailed out, and then just up and committed suicide? Obviously he was frightened but calling his mother that much mean't he thought she could get him out.

Man, I really wish the police officers had in-car or body cameras that could have been reviewed. Each side's story is SO different. Those videos could have held a lot of answers that we don't have...

Man, I really wish the police officers had in-car or body cameras that could have been reviewed. Each side's story is SO different. Those videos could have held a lot of answers that we don't have...

Most definitely body cameras would've been extremely helpful, maybe he'd still be alive today.

I have to wonder if they planned to kill him after figuring out who his parents were. If Andre was released and told his parents about how he was called racial slurs, and treated harshly, you'd figured not only the press but Al Sharpton, and Jesse Jackson would've been down there protesting in no time. Guess it would've been more convenient for the cops to have him commit "suicide" with his own shoe-string, so that way they couldn't get that much heat.

Maybe the NAACP and/or The Nation of Islam had a beef with the police department.

Man, I really wish the police officers had in-car or body cameras that could have been reviewed. Each side's story is SO different. Those videos could have held a lot of answers that we don't have...

I wish there had been cctv of the cells and showers, although with negligent staff suicides and homicides still won't be prevented.

This is a case where one has to use common sense, and not look through statistics and articles. Place a 18-year old black teenager in a Southern prison who had parents in two strong afro-centric groups grouped in with racist inmates, and officers and there ya go.


There are two divergent theories, both of which have happened in jails before, but subsequent investigations by the FBI and the MI state M.E. after Hayne's dismissal found no evidence of a homicide. The articles illustrate how negligent and terrible of environments some of these jails are; suspicious deaths have happened, but suicide is still the leading cause of death in U.S. jails (not the prison system).

Other than the alleged racist comment made by one of the staff at the jails, was there any evidence that the inmates were racist? Certainly the sheriff having a problematic good ol' boy history shouldn't be ignored, but some of inmate's testimonies stated that Jones acted depressed. If this was a result of being jailed or if there were physical or verbal abuses against him by either staff or other detainees will probably never be determined - the statements about the wheelchair are troubling. I don't think it's out of the question that he was abused in some manner that contributed to suicide, but all of this is speculation.

I wish there had been cctv of the cells and showers, although with negligent staff suicides and homicides still won't be prevented.



There are two divergent theories, both of which have happened in jails before, but subsequent investigations by the FBI and the MI state M.E. after Hayne's dismissal found no evidence of a homicide. The articles illustrate how negligent and terrible of environments some of these jails are; suspicious deaths have happened, but suicide is still the leading cause of death in U.S. jails (not the prison system).

Other than the alleged racist comment made by one of the staff at the jails, was there any evidence that the inmates were racist? Certainly the sheriff having a problematic good ol' boy history shouldn't be ignored, but some of inmate's testimonies stated that Jones acted depressed. If this was a result of being jailed or if there were physical or verbal abuses against him by either staff or other detainees will probably never be determined - the statements about the wheelchair are troubling. I don't think it's out of the question that he was abused in some manner that contributed to suicide, but all of this is speculation.

I'll take those articles with a grain of salt, and won't believe that every death in that prison is a suicide, leading cause or not. And what evidence do you need to believe that racist inmates would be jailed in one of the most racist states? The KKK is still prevalent there, that shouldn't be to hard to figure out.

Wasn't there an article that said the lawyer Andre's parents hired had said that the inmates were rehearsed into what to say and said different accounts, but never came forward? Also, I'm going to take a bunch of inmates who were still locked up, wanting to save their own skin testimonies about his "depression" with a grain of salt. Not to be offensive but your logic is completely backwards. You believe he was abused to the point of being placed in a wheelchair, and that depression caused him to commit suicide - but you don't believe that the people who put him in that wheelchair would have killed him?

Cases like this often have an element of "we'll never really know." CO's get away with quite a few things and cover for each other. Inmates can and do kill themselves without any CO misconduct. Seen too much from prior work experience to totally go either way because it really is hard to tell.

And what evidence do you need to believe that racist inmates would be jailed in one of the most racist states? The KKK is still prevalent there, that shouldn't be to hard to figure out.

Your comment about "racist inmates" at the jail seems to have been based on your opinion and not on evidence. Is there evidence that there were inmates who were racially harassing or abusing Jones or other black detainees at the time he was jailed? It's never been fully established what the conditions of the jail were, although imo some negligence in protocols was occurring (not confiscating his shoelaces and staff not noticing that he was missing from the cells).

Wasn't there an article that said the lawyer Andre's parents hired had said that the inmates were rehearsed into what to say and said different accounts, but never came forward? Also, I'm going to take a bunch of inmates who were still locked up, wanting to save their own skin testimonies about his "depression" with a grain of salt. Not to be offensive but your logic is completely backwards. You believe he was abused to the point of being placed in a wheelchair, and that depression caused him to commit suicide - but you don't believe that the people who put him in that wheelchair would have killed him?

The lawyer said that inmates tend to say what their keepers tell them to, and that his interviews told a different story, but no evidence has been discovered to support his claim. That's his speculation, just like my speculation that Jones *might* have been physically or verbally abused at the jail. I lean towards suicide but I'm open to any evidence that suggests homicide, because there have been cover ups of homicides in jails. Speculation does not equal belief or proof. My logic is fine, I just happen to disagree with your theory. ;)

Cases like this often have an element of "we'll never really know." CO's get away with quite a few things and cover for each other. Inmates can and do kill themselves without any CO misconduct.

Agreed; I think there are some unresolved questions, especially why his shoelaces weren't confiscated.

Your comment about "racist inmates" at the jail seems to have been based on your opinion and not on evidence. Is there evidence that there were inmates who were racially harassing or abusing Jones or other black detainees at the time he was jailed? It's never been fully established what the conditions of the jail were, although imo some negligence in protocols was occurring (not confiscating his shoelaces and staff not noticing that he was missing from the cells).



The lawyer said that inmates tend to say what their keepers tell them to, and that his interviews told a different story, but no evidence has been discovered to support his claim. That's his speculation, just like my speculation that Jones *might* have been physically or verbally abused at the jail. I lean towards suicide but I'm open to any evidence that suggests homicide, because there have been cover ups of homicides in jails. Speculation does not equal belief or proof. My logic is fine, I just happen to disagree with your theory. ;)



Agreed; I think there are some unresolved questions, especially why his shoelaces weren't confiscated.

I believe he was killed by the police, but again, it's fairly obvious there would be racist inmates in a Mississippi prison. I'm not saying he was for sure killed by racist inmates, but it's definitely a possibility. The lawyer also found proof of getting the Sheriff charged on two crimes, and won a partial lawsuit for the family, so he was on the right track.

I'm willing to accept that there is a lack of evidence to support he was murdered, but I'm also keen enough to know that he was murdered. You're not going to get me to believe that an 18-year old black teenager who was about to start college and had his life ahead of him, was beaten, put in a wheelchair, and then just killed himself. If he was indeed put in a wheelchair, and given who his parents were you don't think they would've killed him?

We can keep going in circles about how there was no evidence that he was murdered, but while you believe the report of the markings on his neck was via suicide, I could believe that the marking on his neck resembled that of strangulation.

You had a crooked Sheriff who was charged, and a lawsuit won for the family. There is some evidence out there for them to be able to pull this off. I could sit here, and believe it was a suicide based on lack of evidence; or I could use common sense, and figure that a black teenager in a racist Sheriff's jail could mean that he was murdered.

One way I could see it being suicide would be if he knew of a crime he committed in the past, that would have been a definitively lengthy sentence, and he feared that this previous act was the reason for the arrest. I guess, also, that he could have feared retribution from gangs, after he allowed the photos of gang symbols.

But other than that, I still lean murder. There are good cops, and bad cops; Good jailers, and bad jailers. Yes, most are good. But it is possible that his family's background could have contributed to his death.

One way I could see it being suicide would be if he knew of a crime he committed in the past, that would have been a definitively lengthy sentence, and he feared that this previous act was the reason for the arrest. I guess, also, that he could have feared retribution from gangs, after he allowed the photos of gang symbols.

But other than that, I still lean murder. There are good cops, and bad cops; Good jailers, and bad jailers. Yes, most are good. But it is possible that his family's background could have contributed to his death.

Yeah, I tried to look at this from a suicide angle, and while it is possible he got scared and tried to kill himself, it just doesn't seem plausible given the known circumstances.

It's obvious he was frightened by how many times he called his mother, but surely knowing his parents reach he knew he would get out sooner rather than later? Also, the reports of him being brutalized until he was put in a wheelchair wouldn't surprise me if someone caught wind of his parents, and the bad wind that would surround them if he got out of prison and told his parents what had happened. The cops could deny it, but given the fact that if he had physical injuries it would be hard to lie about that.

I just don't see an 18-year old who was about to start college, who didn't have a lengthy sentence committing suicide - but who knows. IF he was killed then why? Was there back and forth arguments such as him threatening "wait until I get out of here and the NAACP hears about this"?

It could go either way, but I don't have him killing himself with a shoe-string. But who knows.

Thanks for all of the cool replies. I honestly never was trying to even incorporate race or "bad cops" into the few snippets of facts I posted, but I can see where that could tie in either way.

I guess my original point is that IF WE ASSUME Andre had no previous record or committed no serious crimes (that he wasn't yet accused of), I just do not see how he was going to be serving any serious jail time for the 3-4 offenses they had on him.

That being said, could I be wrong? Of course. I do not know all of the statutes and "average prison time" for such and such offenses, but I can't see Andre doing 10 years for everything in question. Out here in Chicago area, people (even blacks) get very small sentences or slaps on the wrists for multiple SIMILAR offenses, **assuming it is their first infraction.

Of course, I could be wrong on all of this. All we really have to go on is Unsolved Mysteries' side of the story. I am just wondering why he would up and commit suicide (even if guilty of everything) and not even make his first day of school which he supposedly wanted to at least try to make.

I am thinking he and his folks could of at minimum made the bail, right?

Thanks for all of the cool replies. I honestly never was trying to even incorporate race or "bad cops" into the few snippets of facts I posted, but I can see where that could tie in either way.

I guess my original point is that IF WE ASSUME Andre had no previous record or committed no serious crimes (that he wasn't yet accused of), I just do not see how he was going to be serving any serious jail time for the 3-4 offenses they had on him.

That being said, could I be wrong? Of course. I do not know all of the statutes and "average prison time" for such and such offenses, but I can't see Andre doing 10 years for everything in question. Out here in Chicago area, people (even blacks) get very small sentences or slaps on the wrists for multiple SIMILAR offenses, **assuming it is their first infraction.

Of course, I could be wrong on all of this. All we really have to go on is Unsolved Mysteries' side of the story. I am just wondering why he would up and commit suicide (even if guilty of everything) and not even make his first day of school which he supposedly wanted to at least try to make.

I am thinking he and his folks could of at minimum made the bail, right?

I'm positive they could've made bail given the fact that his father was a minister with the Nation of Islam, and his mother the leader of the NAACP. Even if they didn't have the money personally, you have two black groups who members of both would donate strongly to in order to get a black youth out of prison.

However, if Andre did commit suicide I wonder if he was taunted by the cops. It was reported there were racial slurs said to him, but I wonder if he was ever taunted with "you've not getting out of here for a while" or "you better make yourself comfortable, we have enough charges to keep you here for a long time" even if it wasn't true. They could've been trying to upset him.

I still think he was murdered,and it was covered up. You really have to think about the fact that he was black in a Mississippi prison. I don't believe everything I read, and I'm sure most of the "suicides" in that prison were murders.

I believe he was killed by the police, but again, it's fairly obvious there would be racist inmates in a Mississippi prison.

How could he have been killed by the police if he was found dead in a county jail? Guards or inmates would be responsible, not the police. He was sent to a different jail than the one he would have went to (by the arresting police department) due to overcrowding. I fail to see how the cops who arrested him could have convinced the guards in a county jail miles away to murder him.

How could he have been killed by the police if he was found dead in a county jail? Guards or inmates would be responsible, not the police. He was sent to a different jail than the one he would have went to (by the arresting police department) due to overcrowding. I fail to see how the cops who arrested him could have convinced the guards in a county jail miles away to murder him.

Fine. Guard/Cop/Inmate/Highway Patrol/Janitor - whichever way you want to slice it does not change the fact that I think he was murdered. And why would the police need to convince the guards? Guards could have done it themselves. An inmate could've done it. Pick whomever, but that boy was murdered.

I guess my original point is that IF WE ASSUME Andre had no previous record or committed no serious crimes (that he wasn't yet accused of), I just do not see how he was going to be serving any serious jail time for the 3-4 offenses they had on him.


I'm not a lawyer, but in some states, including GA, the penalty for a first offense of carrying a concealed weapon is up to a year in prison. You'd also have to factor in the additional charges, so there's a possibility that he would have been facing a jail sentence and possible prison time.

Sure, the legal penalties and long term consequences for all of that might not have seemed like a big deal for a habitual offender who knew the ropes of being incarcerated in the jail and prison systems. However, it might be a pretty terrifying experience for an 18 year old who had no priors, whose college prospects were probably going to be shelved for the time being and possibly seriously affect his chances of readmission. Those convictions could have affected his employment for the rest of his life. He might also have been worried about facing prison time with older, violent offenders. Add to all of that stress being placed in a jail where conditions at the least were negligent to some extent, and potentially dehumanizing due to other inmates or staff and you've got someone whose mindset isn't going to be in the healthiest place.

Fine. Guard/Cop/Inmate/Highway Patrol/Janitor - whichever way you want to slice it does not change the fact that I think he was murdered. And why would the police need to convince the guards? Guards could have done it themselves. An inmate could've done it. Pick whomever, but that boy was murdered.

What motive would the guards have in murdering Andre Jones?

Fine. Guard/Cop/Inmate/Highway Patrol/Janitor - whichever way you want to slice it does not change the fact that I think he was murdered. And why would the police need to convince the guards? Guards could have done it themselves. An inmate could've done it. Pick whomever, but that boy was murdered.

Calm down, buddy. Breathe....Breathe.

Calm down, buddy. Breathe....Breathe.

Haha, I'm perfectly relaxed, my answer was in the vein of being more snarky, than angry. I just found his argument rather pointless. A cop didn't kill Andre, but someone else could've.

What motive would the guards have in murdering Andre Jones?

Who knows? There could've been an argument, it could've been racially motivated, it could've been a guard, it could've been a racist inmate, it could've been an inmate in which he had an argument with, point is I don't understand your pointless chipping away at the smallest of details of who killed him? because it certainly isn't swaying my point. The details surrounding him, and HOW he was killed leads me to believe that he was murdered - not who.

It's like you can't grasp that an 18-year old kid could've been killed in prison. You say the police couldn't have killed him, you then ask what was the guards motive (how would I know? none of us were there at the time - if we knew these things we wouldn't be in this thread).

The reason I make my claims that he was murdered was because I don't buy him hanging himself with a shoestring. I don't buy a kid who's been calling his mother all day to bail him out to just suddenly up and commit suicide. I don't buy that someone in that prison would put him in a wheelchair and NOT kill him.

I get you're on the suicide angle because there's no evidence to support it was a murder. And people keep mentioning that he killed himself because his future career would be tarnished by his record, etc etc - do you really think an 18 year old who's first time in prison would be thinking that far down the line? I'm certain he was just panicking to get out, not his future credit score. C'mon.

Who knows? There could've been an argument, it could've been racially motivated, it could've been a guard, it could've been a racist inmate, it could've been an inmate in which he had an argument with, point is I don't understand your pointless chipping away at the smallest of details of who killed him? because it certainly isn't swaying my point. The details surrounding him, and HOW he was killed leads me to believe that he was murdered - not who.

Do you concede that the reasons for his multiple charges and arrest are valid?

Do you concede that the reasons for his multiple charges and arrest are valid?

I honestly don't know. I don't completely doubt that Andre didn't have a gun,open beer etc. I mean he did have a stolen truck, but none of those things seemed to fit a kid who was about to go to college , but I can't say if he was innocent or not. I do have two problems though: One is you have a kid with a clean record who was due at college in one day. Two, Andre could've been involved in illegal behavior before in the past but was never caught. It's really hard to say.

I'm in no means saying Andre was a good kid, or was above doing anything illegal, my only gripes were how he was killed. I don't want to keep bringing race into this but it's hard to ignore a black teenager in a Mississippi prison. I'm not accusing the arresting officers, but I do think something happened inside of that prison, be it guard or inmate.

I just want to re-phrase that I'm not on the side of "he was black, he didn't do anything wrong, everyone was racist". My thoughts were that there could've been some white nationalist inmates, hell it could've been another black inmate. I just think he was killed. Honestly, how many people would think to hang themselves with a shoe string?

I just think he was killed. Honestly, how many people would think to hang themselves with a shoe string?

I work pretty closely with the jails. You'd be surprised at the ways people try to kill themselves. Shoelaces don't surprise me in the least. I'm sure it's part of the reason that our jail here switched to sandals when clothing the inmates.

I work pretty closely with the jails. You'd be surprised at the ways people try to kill themselves. Shoelaces don't surprise me in the least. I'm sure it's part of the reason that our jail here switched to sandals when clothing the inmates.

Excellent point. I just feel like this would've been a two person job. One to hold him up, and one to tie the shoe string. It could've even took one person. It's possible he could've done it himself, but the length of the shoes string would seem hard to do by oneself.

I honestly don't know. I don't completely doubt that Andre didn't have a gun,open beer etc. I mean he did have a stolen truck, but none of those things seemed to fit a kid who was about to go to college , but I can't say if he was innocent or not. I do have two problems though: One is you have a kid with a clean record who was due at college in one day. Two, Andre could've been involved in illegal behavior before in the past but was never caught. It's really hard to say.

If all of the charges are valid, there's the circumstantial evidence supporting the suicide theory. We know absolutely nothing about Andre's state of mind prior to his arrest. His parents seem to think he was a clean cut college bound good guy. Which doesn't explain the gun, or the stolen truck. Granted, he may not have known about either, since he was borrowing a friend's truck...but this friend was obviously an unsavory character, so at the very least Andre associated with these people (also volunteering to show gang phrases and terminology to the police). I see it as a guy who befriended the wrong crowd, who typically wasn't involved in that type of thing, who spilled his guts to the cops to try and be as cooperative as possible with the hopes of getting leniency, and then realized that leniency from the cops was the least of his worries...he'd have to face the gang members once he eventually got out. I think both the potential of a long prison term sentence (although unlikely, since this was his first offense, but he was only 18 and may not have known) and the fear of retaliation from gang members is was ultimately led him to take his own life.

If all of the charges are valid, there's the circumstantial evidence supporting the suicide theory. We know absolutely nothing about Andre's state of mind prior to his arrest. His parents seem to think he was a clean cut college bound good guy. Which doesn't explain the gun, or the stolen truck. Granted, he may not have known about either, since he was borrowing a friend's truck...but this friend was obviously an unsavory character, so at the very least Andre associated with these people (also volunteering to show gang phrases and terminology to the police). I see it as a guy who befriended the wrong crowd, who typically wasn't involved in that type of thing, who spilled his guts to the cops to try and be as cooperative as possible with the hopes of getting leniency, and then realized that leniency from the cops was the least of his worries...he'd have to face the gang members once he eventually got out. I think both the potential of a long prison term sentence (although unlikely, since this was his first offense, but he was only 18 and may not have known) and the fear of retaliation from gang members is was ultimately led him to take his own life.


I honestly can agree with that theory. I didn't even consider the gang retaliation - do you really think the pictures of him showing gang signs is true?

The problem with with this case is that there's a lot we don't know so it's hard to really argue against each side. Someone could claim that he committed suicide because he was afraid of the gangs/parents/future prospects/etc. while someone could argue that he was killed for racism/an argument/etc. Fact is if you believe one side it's hard to argue with the other. None of us knew Andre, and we can't say for sure if he would commit suicide given the circumstances - he could've been hopeful we was getting out, or he could've felt like the walls were closing in, who knows.

In terms of whether he had a gun,beer, photos of a gang sign - is there evidence of these things? One fact we do have is that he was driving a stolen truck, but would that cause the alleged gang to get Andre? Then there's the case of whether we know if Andre knew the truck was stolen or not. It's just one big mystery. However, if Andre didn't know the truck was stolen then why would he be afraid of the gang? Whoever lent him the truck would more than likely get in trouble if his case went to trial.

Another theory to make your head spin: what if Andre showing gang signs was a lie? To our knowledge no one has come forth and said Andre was in a gang. There were no other signs, or witnesses who said Andre was in a gang. All we have is a cop's word that he showed gang signs for a picture, which to be honest sounds stupid. Why would he do that? He was driving a stolen truck, not involved in a gang fight, it would make zero sense for that to happen. It sounded like the cops were trying to throw more nonsense to cover their butts.

And just because Andre's friend who lent him a stolen truck was possibly in a gang doesn't mean Andre was. We can agree that his friend was unsavory, but it doesn't mean that he ran with a bad crowd, could've just had a bad friend. It's hard to lump him in with a gang, and doing all of these gang related things when he has a clean record and was going to college. Most thugs don't go to college.

To use your own words against you"some cops lie, not all" well what if these cops did in fact lie? Is there evidence to support the cops weren't lying outside of the stolen truck?

Another theory to make your head spin: what if Andre showing gang signs was a lie? To our knowledge no one has come forth and said Andre was in a gang. There were no other signs, or witnesses who said Andre was in a gang. All we have is a cop's word that he showed gang signs for a picture, which to be honest sounds stupid. Why would he do that? He was driving a stolen truck, not involved in a gang fight, it would make zero sense for that to happen. It sounded like the cops were trying to throw more nonsense to cover their butts.

I always thought that Andre-offering-to-be-photographed-showing-gang-signs story was pure bullsh*t. Period.

And just because Andre's friend who lent him a stolen truck was possibly in a gang doesn't mean Andre was. We can agree that his friend was unsavory, but it doesn't mean that he ran with a bad crowd, could've just had a bad friend.

Agreed.

I always thought that Andre-offering-to-be-photographed-showing-gang-signs story was pure bullsh*t. Period.

Seriously. When I read that my face just instantly :rolleyes:. I wonder if they also took pictures of him playing basketball, and rapping too (I kid, I kid)

I honestly can agree with that theory. I didn't even consider the gang retaliation - do you really think the pictures of him showing gang signs is true?

I don't know how accurate the re-enactment would be, but it seems like they were taking his mugshot while he was talking to them and showing them the signs.

The problem with with this case is that there's a lot we don't know so it's hard to really argue against each side. Someone could claim that he committed suicide because he was afraid of the gangs/parents/future prospects/etc. while someone could argue that he was killed for racism/an argument/etc. Fact is if you believe one side it's hard to argue with the other. None of us knew Andre, and we can't say for sure if he would commit suicide given the circumstances - he could've been hopeful we was getting out, or he could've felt like the walls were closing in, who knows.

This (http://www.nytimes.com/1993/02/21/us/death-in-a-jailhouse-the-ruling-a-suicide-the-fear-a-lynching.html?pagewanted=all) article sheds a lot more light on the case than what was covered in UM. The pathologist interviewed who said he believed it was homicide, concedes that he might be wrong. "I could be wrong about the homicide," he said. "I don't think I am. But my main beef is the jailers. They're not watching them. They just put them in the slammer and leave them there." That's the issue. The lack of safeguards and lack of care in the Mississippi jails at the time of Andre's death. Not murder. Not lynching.

In terms of whether he had a gun,beer, photos of a gang sign - is there evidence of these things? One fact we do have is that he was driving a stolen truck, but would that cause the alleged gang to get Andre? Then there's the case of whether we know if Andre knew the truck was stolen or not. It's just one big mystery. However, if Andre didn't know the truck was stolen then why would he be afraid of the gang? Whoever lent him the truck would more than likely get in trouble if his case went to trial.

The cops had him for the stolen truck. They didn't need any of the other charges to arrest him. I cannot fathom why they would arrest him for a valid reason, and then lie and tack on random charges stemming from an open container to illegal possession of a firearm.

Another theory to make your head spin: what if Andre showing gang signs was a lie? To our knowledge no one has come forth and said Andre was in a gang. There were no other signs, or witnesses who said Andre was in a gang. All we have is a cop's word that he showed gang signs for a picture, which to be honest sounds stupid. Why would he do that? He was driving a stolen truck, not involved in a gang fight, it would make zero sense for that to happen. It sounded like the cops were trying to throw more nonsense to cover their butts.

I think it's possible that a friend of his was in or knew members in a gang and had shown him some of the lingo/signs from within the gang, and in an effort to get leniency, he volunteered this information to the police. Again, I see no motive or reason for the cops to lie after the fact about this.

And just because Andre's friend who lent him a stolen truck was possibly in a gang doesn't mean Andre was. We can agree that his friend was unsavory, but it doesn't mean that he ran with a bad crowd, could've just had a bad friend. It's hard to lump him in with a gang, and doing all of these gang related things when he has a clean record and was going to college. Most thugs don't go to college.

Never thought he was a member in a gang. Have always maintained that he had knew or was acquainted with someone who was, and that's where he got the information from.

To use your own words against you"some cops lie, not all" well what if these cops did in fact lie? Is there evidence to support the cops weren't lying outside of the stolen truck?

Where's the evidence that they were lying about anything?

Where's the evidence that they were lying about anything?

Bingo. We've come full circle. Where's the evidence of any of the things such as him showing gang signs, the gun, etc?

Again, why would Andre show gang signs during his mugshot if he wasn't apart of a gang, but knew a friend who was apart of one? More questions lead to more questions.

You keep asking me for evidence, but you haven't proven any of the evidence of why you think he's guilty. Show me evidence of the gang sign photos, gun, etc.

And why would a cop lie? To press more charges, could've been racially motivated but they needed more dirt to pin him with, etc.

As you've asked me countless times; I'm now asking you - where's the evidence that the cops DIDN'T lie about him showing gang signs, the gun, etc? And if your answer is "because they said so" then I have some advice for you. Don't believe everything everyone says.

Fact is, I have no clue if there was actually a gun, or beer but you bring up a valid point ; why lie if they already had him for the truck? However, him showing gang signs when he had a clean record and wasn't part of a gang is bull. It stinks, and makes no sense. So they were obviously lying about something. But why, you may ask? I don't know. Maybe they wanted to really nail him with as many charges as possible if it came that he really didn't know about the truck.

And to really try to hammer how stupid and nonsensical it would be for Andre to show gang signs when he supposedly wasn't part of a gang, if cops arrested an Asian man for a stolen truck and they said "he showed us secret, deadly martial arts techniques in his mugshots" would you believe that?

Bingo. We've come full circle. Where's the evidence of any of the things such as him showing gang signs, the gun, etc?

Multiple witnesses attest to these things happening. Unless, of course, they're all lying.

Again, why would Andre show gang signs during his mugshot if he wasn't apart of a gang, but knew a friend who was apart of one? More questions lead to more questions.

Because he's scared. He figures if he cooperates and tells them more information, they'll go easy on him. I could see this as Andre not being able to stop talking (for being nervous and scared) and volunteering anything that comes to his head. The cops ask him something innocuous, like where the truck came from, he says he borrowed it from a friend, they say it's stolen, he blames the friend, and then goes into detail about the friends gang activities. It's not that farfetched.

You keep asking me for evidence, but you haven't proven any of the evidence of why you think he's guilty. Show me evidence of the gang sign photos, gun, etc.

He's not guilty of anything, IMO. He may or may not have known about the gun, or that the truck was stolen, but other than that, I don't think he's guilty of anything.

And why would a cop lie? To press more charges, could've been racially motivated but they needed more dirt to pin him with, etc.

This is where the story gets borderline fantastical. The cops, for racist or otherwise unknown motives, conspire to lie to tack more charges on him. THEN he has the misfortune of being transported to a different jail than the one the arresting officers would have taken him to, which is filled to the brim with either racist guards, inmates, jailers, etc. who then murder him, and conspire (all together mind you, including the inmates in the cell with him) to lie. If the prison wasn't overcrowded, and he was taken to the jail he was supposed to go to, would this have even been an unsolved mystery?

As you've asked me countless times; I'm now asking you - where's the evidence that the cops DIDN'T lie about him showing gang signs, the gun, etc? And if your answer is "because they said so" then I have some advice for you. Don't believe everything everyone says.

We have multiple witnesses, including law enforcement and inmates, who all tell a similar story that ultimately leads to Andre committing suicide. You have one inmate hearing an alleged racial remark by a cop while transporting Andre to jail, and the family's feeling that he wouldn't kill himself to support the murder theory. Virtually every suicide/murder segment featured on UM has the same back drop: so and so was happy, just getting ready to start a job/school/family, would never kill themselves, thrown in with something perceived shady or odd by the family and then you've got yourself a nice little UM segment. And almost all are in agreement that the majority of those are clear cut cases of suicide.


And to really try to hammer how stupid and nonsensical it would be for Andre to show gang signs when he supposedly wasn't part of a gang, if cops arrested an Asian man for a stolen truck and they said "he showed us secret, deadly martial arts techniques in his mugshots" would you believe that?

I could also ask the same question and say if this were an Asian man arrested for a stolen truck, open container, gun, etc. and was found hanged in a jail cell, would there be anyone (outside of maybe his family) who, with the same evidence and circumstances, pushing that he was murdered by racist prison officials or inmates?

Because he's scared. He figures if he cooperates and tells them more information, they'll go easy on him. I could see this as Andre not being able to stop talking (for being nervous and scared) and volunteering anything that comes to his head. The cops ask him something innocuous, like where the truck came from, he says he borrowed it from a friend, they say it's stolen, he blames the friend, and then goes into detail about the friends gang activities. It's not that farfetched.

C'mon man, you're not even trying to think about how dumb that is. Then on top that that you're ASSUMING that Andre knew the truck was stolen, which we don't even know if he knew or not. Then on top of that, just because Andre's friend stole a truck doesn't mean he was in a gang. So where's your evidence his friend was in a gang?

This is where the story gets borderline fantastical.

Apply some of what you said to your own logic. Also, what multiple people seen Andre throw up gang signs besides "alleged" cops?

C'mon man, you're not even trying to think about how dumb that is. Then on top that that you're ASSUMING that Andre knew the truck was stolen, which we don't even know if he knew or not. Then on top of that, just because Andre's friend stole a truck doesn't mean he was in a gang. So where's your evidence his friend was in a gang?

Apparently, it wasn't known until after the fact that the truck was stolen. He was charged for illegally putting a license plate on a vehicle. He may not have known the truck was stolen, or the bit with the license plate. I have no way of knowing. Assuming he didn't know, and he was totally innocent (which I believe is possible), why is it such a stretch to say that he wouldn't sell his friend down the river? Look at what happened to Frederick Young when he was arrested for armed robbery; he blamed his twin brother for it. Andre selling out his friend makes him look more innocent to me.

Apply some of what you said to your own logic. Also, what multiple people seen Andre throw up gang signs besides "alleged" cops?

Nevermind, let's agree to disagree.

Apparently, it wasn't known until after the fact that the truck was stolen. He was charged for illegally putting a license plate on a vehicle. He may not have known the truck was stolen, or the bit with the license plate. I have no way of knowing. Assuming he didn't know, and he was totally innocent (which I believe is possible), why is it such a stretch to say that he wouldn't sell his friend down the river? Look at what happened to Frederick Young when he was arrested for armed robbery; he blamed his twin brother for it. Andre selling out his friend makes him look more innocent to me.



Nevermind, let's agree to disagree.

I'm not saying he wouldn't sell his friend down the river, but saying "this is my friend's truck, I had no idea it was stolen" would make more sense than him throwing up gang signs. And again, what if his friend wasn't in a gang?

I should state though, that I do understand your logic. Police questioned Andre, asked him where he got the truck, Andre got scared and said the friend, Police asked him to describe the friend more, and maybe Andre told him things like the "friend is in a gang, heres the sign" to get himself out of trouble, and to implicate his friend. Hard to say for certain though, because the friend might not have been in a gang. And who's to say that Andre would rat his friend out completely? It's all circumstantial.

We just have to agree to disagree like you said.

Another question - was Andre or his gf ever given a sobriety test? Was he drinking, or was it just an old stale open can of beer? Who was the owner of the gun he supposedly threw out of the window?

Minor details I know.

[QUOTE=TheCars1986] Look at what happened to Frederick Young when he was arrested for armed robbery; he blamed his twin brother for it.


./QUOTE]

WAY off topic, but I always thought that there was enough evidence that the twin brother (cedric) was the one who committed the robbery.

WAY off topic, but I always thought that there was enough evidence that the twin brother (cedric) was the one who committed the robbery.

I agree, and that's one of the reasons I brought it up. He, IMO rightfully, sold out his brother to the cops because he said he had nothing to do with the armed robbery. And that was his identical twin. I don't think Andre Jones would have hesitated in ratting out his friend, considering the very real possibility that he had no clue that the truck was stolen or had altered license plates.

I agree, and that's one of the reasons I brought it up. He, IMO rightfully, sold out his brother to the cops because he said he had nothing to do with the armed robbery. And that was his identical twin. I don't think Andre Jones would have hesitated in ratting out his friend, considering the very real possibility that he had no clue that the truck was stolen or had altered license plates.

You don't think he would've , but you don't know. I've never doubted he wouldn't have sold out his friend, hell he even could've just been telling the truth "a friend loaned me this officer, I had no idea it was stolen" it just doesn't make sense to go beyond that and show gang signs. Him showing gang signs, or committed suicide because of "gang retaliation" if he wasn't apart of a gang makes no sense. If he wasn't part of the gang why would they come after him if he didn't do anything gang related? "Hey guys, Andre showed us your gang sign, you're all under arrest" doesn't make any sense. What could they possibly charge the gang with? Only person who would catch heat would be the person who loaned him the truck.

I'll tell you what. If those photos ever surface of Andre throwing up gang signs I'll give credit to your theory, until then it's just horse dung, plain and simple.

Okay, I'm done. I promise.

Am I the only one who thinks if the gang signs photos do exist, that they could've been taken to provide "evidence" that Andre, was, in fact, just Another Low-Life Thug who 'got what was coming to him'?

Am I the only one who thinks if the gang signs photos do exist, that they could've been taken to provide "evidence" that Andre, was, in fact, just Another Low-Life Thug who 'got what was coming to him'?

That's the only thing that makes sense in my opinion. It also ties in very nicely with him "having a gun". Outside of having a stolen truck, it seems hard to nail a kid with a clean record who was going to college. But have him "throw a gun out the window" and "make thug life gang signs" and the cops seem valid.

Am I the only one who thinks if the gang signs photos do exist, that they could've been taken to provide "evidence" that Andre, was, in fact, just Another Low-Life Thug who 'got what was coming to him'?

I haven't seen the segment in a long time, and this portion is edited out of the UM website write up on the case. Did they take the pictures of him (or show any actual pictures on the segment) showing the signs, or was he showing signs as they were taking his mugshot?

I haven't seen the segment in a long time, and this portion is edited out of the UM website write up on the case. Did they take the pictures of him (or show any actual pictures on the segment) showing the signs, or was he showing signs as they were taking his mugshot?

I too haven't seen the segment in a long time, but I do recall there was only a reenactment of the "gang signs" pictures being taken. No actual photos of Andre flashing gang signs ever materialized both on the show and IRL, if memory serves me correctly.

Couldn't the family somehow get the photos of the gang signs by the Freedom of Information Act?

Again this was in 1992-ish, so sadly this is almost 25 years ago. I am sure the family has tried to get these photos, but they shouldn't be that hard to get?

Again, even if Andre WAS IN A GANG - and we assume (gang member or not) he was going to go to that first day of college on the upcoming Monday (or whenever he would be released on bond) - why up and commit suicide?

A part of me thinks another prisoner was in on this, it may not have even been the actual prison guards or police.

Did they take the pictures of him (or show any actual pictures on the segment) showing the signs, or was he showing signs as they were taking his mugshot?


In the segment, it was a re-enactment of Andre (and actor portraying him) casually showing and describing certain gang signs to police. It was a casual friendly conversation between him and the police, as if he was cooperating with them.

He did not flash any gang signs during his mug shot. No mug shot (either real or re-enactment) was shown.

Police even said in so many words that them and Andre were getting on well, and both sides were cooperating and being diplomatic.

In the segment, it was a re-enactment of Andre (and actor portraying him) casually showing and describing certain gang signs to police. It was a casual friendly conversation between him and the police, as if he was cooperating with them.

He did not flash any gang signs during his mug shot. No mug shot (either real or re-enactment) was shown.

Police even said in so many words that them and Andre were getting on well, and both sides were cooperating and being diplomatic.

There was no picture. I have to agree with TheCars1986 on why they would make that up, it makes no sense to me. Unless what MegtheEgg said is true; they were trying to paint a more sinister picture of Andre to cover their butts.

Showing a cop a gang sign, whether you're in the gang or not, is akin to robbing a bank, and showing up to deposit the exact amount that was stolen.

And honestly what scenario would him showing gang signs even happen
"Hey, thanks for arresting me Officer! In lieu of me driving a stolen truck, and chucking a gun out of the window, my friends and I are apart of a gang! If you ever need to incriminate me, or my fellow gang members again, heres the gang sign!"

He did get accepted to college. Let's give him a little bit more credit than that.

Isn't it entirely possible that the cops were goading him into displaying the gang signs as a means of strengthening their case against him as opposed to eventually murdering him?

Isn't it entirely possible that the cops were goading him into displaying the gang signs as a means of strengthening their case against him as opposed to eventually murdering him?

Possibly. If he was murdered I'm starting to lean on the side of another prisoner doing it. I wonder if he could've been sexually assaulted as well. I wonder if they checked for that. I feel like prisoners would most likely cover for other prisoners than they would for the cops.

Even then how did they goad him into showing gang signs? This whole gang sign thing is weak. There's no evidence of it, so it's hard to use that to prove your case. It's possible they just threw it in the UM segment to make Andre look bad, and to make the viewers think that the Police Department weren't complete scumbags

I really don't believe he killed himself in the jail. I believe he either was murdered by the police or another inmate. I am leading more to the police, because once they knew who his parent's was it changed the whole thing. The throwing alcohol or drugs out the window was bs. I don't believe he was in a gang or showed them gang signs. It would be pictures or video of this.

I saw this on Amazon season 6. Been a while, but watching this again reaffirmed my suspicion that he was murdered by someone in that jail cell. Unfortunate, because the case will probably never be solved.

This young man was obviously murdered.

I really have no problem believing he committed suicide. He was a college student from a middle class family without a criminal record and came to realize he was in some deep ****, maybe not huge, but enough for a young guy to overreact and think his career path and his family's reputation might be ruined. I think he probably wasn't really a gang member, but hanging out with some shady people. He also had been drinking, so I could see him making gang signs thinking he was coming across as tough. I don't think the cops were even concerned about this at all, lots of kids know gang signs.

There is a 0.0% chance that this guy was murdered by anyone in law enforcement. The way the segment is presented is misleading and leads you to believe that the cops conspired to drum up fake charges against him so they can murder him because his mom was involved in the NAACP...yeah, that didn't happen. He got arrested, and was then transferred to a jail 40 miles away. Do you think the jailers, 40 miles away from where he was arrested, would also be involved in a conspiracy to frame and then kill this guy? No chance. If he was murdered, it was by another inmate. Probably for showing the cops gang signs.

I really have no problem believing he committed suicide. He was a college student from a middle class family without a criminal record and came to realize he was in some deep ****, maybe not huge, but enough for a young guy to overreact and think his career path and his family's reputation might be ruined. I think he probably wasn't really a gang member, but hanging out with some shady people. He also had been drinking, so I could see him making gang signs thinking he was coming across as tough. I don't think the cops were even concerned about this at all, lots of kids know gang signs.

Please explain how he hung himself with a shoe string?

All depends on thickness of the lace, angle, tightness, intoxication, lack of immediate response, possibly pre-existing health conditions. It could be done and has been done in other cases.

.

All depends on thickness of the lace, angle, tightness, intoxication, lack of immediate response, possibly pre-existing health conditions. It could be done and has been done in other cases.

With a shoelace that thin on a prison shower stall? Furthermore, it was said that multiple men (black and white) were found hung in that prison.

That boy was murdered

How could he have been killed by the police if he was found dead in a county jail? Guards or inmates would be responsible, not the police. He was sent to a different jail than the one he would have went to (by the arresting police department) due to overcrowding. I fail to see how the cops who arrested him could have convinced the guards in a county jail miles away to murder him.

For the people who are saying it is suicide, two words: Jeffrey Epstein.

Please explain how he hung himself with a shoe string?

I'm not an expert, but the pathologist explained how it was possible and so have previous posters. Are you suggesting people never try to commit suicide by using shoe laces to hang themselves? Because they do.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/gurugram/army-man-found-hanging-in-gurugram-at-a-paying-guest-house/story-0ZEHN0AdBaWRN7JdKCIY4L.html

I'm not an expert, but the pathologist explained how it was possible and so have previous posters. Are you suggesting people never try to commit suicide by using shoe laces to hang themselves? Because they do.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/gurugram/army-man-found-hanging-in-gurugram-at-a-paying-guest-house/story-0ZEHN0AdBaWRN7JdKCIY4L.html

I never said people didn't try to hang themselves with shoe laces. I insinuated that due to the circumstances of Andre, and the prison that it's unlikely he hung himself with his shoe lace.

One pathologist (who was working with the police department) said it was possible, while the other pathologist who actually examined his body said that the marks on his neck was inconsistent with a hanging since the marks from the laces ended in a cross-like pattern like he was strangled.

Also the pathologist saying a cop "demonstrated that it could be done" didn't mention if Andre and the cop had a height difference or any other factors. Looking at those laces and the height from the shower stall, it's going to be no for me dawg

For the people who are saying it is suicide, two words: Jeffrey Epstein.

What does Jeffrey Epstein's suicide have to do with the discussion of Andre Jones's death?

What does Jeffrey Epstein's suicide have to do with the discussion of Andre Jones's death?

I didn't get that either. Apparently Epstein hung himself with his shirt in his cell, but I don't get the relevance

Well, you did simply ask me how he could hang himself with shoelaces. It's possible and has been done. I don't see why the circumstances of this case would make it unlikely, though.

The state pathologist who said it was possible also performed the autopsy, so he examined his body as well. The other pathologist was hired by the family and I don't think he said tgat he couldn't have hanged himself with shoelaces, just that he believed the ligature marks pointed to strangulation by a third party. Since he was paid by people who didn't believe André committed suicide, I don't see him as more credible than the state pathologist.

He didn't mention those specifics on the show, but I don't know what he said in any of the reports. I don't think it necessarily means anything, so I'm not going to make any assumptions about that. It could be that the hanging was achieved in such a way that height didn't matter as much. It's not like André was a short guy.

You are free to believe whatever you want, of course.

The other pathologist was hired by the family and I don't think he said tgat he couldn't have hanged himself with shoelaces, just that he believed the ligature marks pointed to strangulation by a third party. Since he was paid by people who didn't believe André committed suicide, I don't see him as more credible than the state pathologist.

He also admitted that he was relying on pictures of the body and did not actually examine it like the state pathologist. I also found a Mississippi State Supreme Court decision (https://law.justia.com/cases/mississippi/supreme-court/2002/conv12113.html), which tosses out a lawsuit filed by Andre's parents. He was arrested in possession of a firearm, had an open container in the car, and was driving a stole vehicle with an altered VIN number. Those are facts. One could make the argument that he killed himself after realizing how seriously in trouble he was going to be, and one could make the argument that he was seen as a snitch for cooperating with the cops so much that a fellow inmate strangled him to death and staged it to look like a suicide. Either one is plausible, IMO.

Well, you did simply ask me how he could hang himself with shoelaces. It's possible and has been done. I don't see why the circumstances of this case would make it unlikely, though.

The state pathologist who said it was possible also performed the autopsy, so he examined his body as well. The other pathologist was hired by the family and I don't think he said tgat he couldn't have hanged himself with shoelaces, just that he believed the ligature marks pointed to strangulation by a third party. Since he was paid by people who didn't believe André committed suicide, I don't see him as more credible than the state pathologist.

He didn't mention those specifics on the show, but I don't know what he said in any of the reports. I don't think it necessarily means anything, so I'm not going to make any assumptions about that. It could be that the hanging was achieved in such a way that height didn't matter as much. It's not like André was a short guy.

You are free to believe whatever you want, of course.

I was asking how it would be possible for Andre to hang himself given the circumstances (high grate in shower prison, thin shoe string, ligature marks inconsistent with pathologist findings, etc)

I know it's possible for people to hang themselves with shoe laces.

I know it's possible to hang yourself with a shoe string.

He also admitted that he was relying on pictures of the body and did not actually examine it like the state pathologist.

Where did he say this?

I was asking how it would be possible for Andre to hang himself given the circumstances (high grate in shower prison, thin shoe string, ligature marks inconsistent with pathologist findings, etc)

I know it's possible for people to hang themselves with shoe laces.

I know it's possible to hang yourself with a shoe string.


That's not exactly what you asked *me*, but good for making that clear now...

The pathologist already explained his belief that André could've made the noose to hang himself, so apparently he concluded the grate was not too high. Do we know how high the grate was or do we only have the father's estimate to go by?

The pathologist also said that tests by the manufacturer showed the laces were strong enough. So were they really that thin?

He also explained why he disagreed with the other pathologist's findings regarding the ligature marks. The only other thing I recall is that he didn't notice any bruises. I'd like to hear his explanation first before accepting the opinion of a paid expert.

You can choose to believe the family's claims, but it's not like those issues have not been addressed.

That's not exactly what you asked *me*, but good for making that clear now...

The pathologist already explained his belief that André could've made the noose to hang himself, so apparently he concluded the grate was not too high. Do we know how high the grate was or do we only have the father's estimate to go by?

The pathologist also said that tests by the manufacturer showed the laces were strong enough. So were they really that thin?

He also explained why he disagreed with the other pathologist's findings regarding the ligature marks. The only other thing I recall is that he didn't notice any bruises. I'd like to hear his explanation first before accepting the opinion of a paid expert.

You can choose to believe the family's claims, but it's not like those issues have not been addressed.

Oooh. So this is the "esteemed" pathologist who you believe in this case. The great Dr. Hayne who not only lost his medical license, but lied about autopsies in many cases. There's more info about this piece of work and his practices online

"Hayne, who says he works 110 hours a week and conducts 1,500 autopsies a year, gave incorrect and misleading testimony at the trials of Levon Brooks and Kennedy Brewer, both Innocence Project clients who were exonerated this year after serving a combined three decades in prison for murders they didn’t commit. Brewer spent much of his time on death row.

Lawyers and inmates in Mississippi have begun to envision major legal repercussions as Hayne’s questionable practices come to light."

https://innocenceproject.org/more-misconduct-in-mississippi-pathologist-lied-about-his-credentials/

I didn't get that either. Apparently Epstein hung himself with his shirt in his cell, but I don't get the relevance

There are questions surrounding Epstein's suicide raised by several people. He was on suicide watch and the guards just "happened" to leave him alone to take a break, and there were no cameras. Add to the fact that he had the potential to take a lot of famous people down, and you wonder. Call me a conspiracy theorist.

Oooh. So this is the "esteemed" pathologist who you believe in this case. The great Dr. Hayne who not only lost his medical license, but lied about autopsies in many cases. There's more info about this piece of work and his practices online

"Hayne, who says he works 110 hours a week and conducts 1,500 autopsies a year, gave incorrect and misleading testimony at the trials of Levon Brooks and Kennedy Brewer, both Innocence Project clients who were exonerated this year after serving a combined three decades in prison for murders they didn’t commit. Brewer spent much of his time on death row.

Lawyers and inmates in Mississippi have begun to envision major legal repercussions as Hayne’s questionable practices come to light."

https://innocenceproject.org/more-misconduct-in-mississippi-pathologist-lied-about-his-credentials/

Have another one!:cheers:

Anyway, who called him "esteemed"? Come on, in a real discussion that is no argument. You have to show evidence that directly contradicts his findings. This case has been reviewed by other authorities and they agreed. Let's stick to the facts of THIS case.

In the article below I found some more information on the shoelaces and the "grate". I can't confirm if the information is correct, but is does show that UM segment does not give us the full picture.

"Returning briefly to the case of Andre Jones, the height of the shower bar from which Jones’s body was found was measured at 7 1/2 feet, not the eight or nine feet reported by Dr. James Bryant. This would eliminate the need for a chair or step stool"

"Also, Bryant maintained that the shoelace Jones used could not support his estimated weight of 160 pounds. According to Nike officials quoted in the Jackson Clarion Ledger, the minimum tensile strength of their shoelace is 150 pounds and the maximum 175 pounds. IfJones’s feet were on the ground, as has been argued by Dr. Steven Hayne, the Brandon pathologist who first ruled that Jones committed suicide, the shoelace would be supporting significantly less than his entire body weight."

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://egrove.olemiss.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D1007%26context%3Djx&ved=2ahUKEwivvZHbyZSMAxXf2QIHHWGFLuAQFnoECB8QAQ&usg=AOvVaw1FMa6t6ZTGNwaoxgAh9UjZ

Take it or leave it. If you choose to take the word of an expert, who offered his services to those seeking to challenge autopsy reports or pursuing malpractice suits and should rightfully be scrutinized, because you hate his opponent, that's obviously your perogative.

There is a 0.0% chance that this guy was murdered by anyone in law enforcement. The way the segment is presented is misleading and leads you to believe that the cops conspired to drum up fake charges against him so they can murder him because his mom was involved in the NAACP...yeah, that didn't happen. He got arrested, and was then transferred to a jail 40 miles away. Do you think the jailers, 40 miles away from where he was arrested, would also be involved in a conspiracy to frame and then kill this guy? No chance. If he was murdered, it was by another inmate. Probably for showing the cops gang signs.

I wonder if the cops even knew who he or his parents were. The girlfriend did not really come across as very convincing when she described the encounter.

.

Have another one!:cheers:

Anyway, who called him "esteemed"? Come on, in a real discussion that is no argument. You have to show evidence that directly contradicts his findings. This case has been reviewed by other authorities and they agreed. Let's stick to the facts of THIS case.

In the article below I found some more information on the shoelaces and the "grate". I can't confirm if the information is correct, but is does show that UM segment does not give us the full picture.

"Returning briefly to the case of Andre Jones, the height of the shower bar from which Jones’s body was found was measured at 7 1/2 feet, not the eight or nine feet reported by Dr. James Bryant. This would eliminate the need for a chair or step stool"

"Also, Bryant maintained that the shoelace Jones used could not support his estimated weight of 160 pounds. According to Nike officials quoted in the Jackson Clarion Ledger, the minimum tensile strength of their shoelace is 150 pounds and the maximum 175 pounds. IfJones’s feet were on the ground, as has been argued by Dr. Steven Hayne, the Brandon pathologist who first ruled that Jones committed suicide, the shoelace would be supporting significantly less than his entire body weight."

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://egrove.olemiss.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D1007%26context%3Djx&ved=2ahUKEwivvZHbyZSMAxXf2QIHHWGFLuAQFnoECB8QAQ&usg=AOvVaw1FMa6t6ZTGNwaoxgAh9UjZ

Take it or leave it. If you choose to take the word of an expert, who offered his services to those seeking to challenge autopsy reports or pursuing malpractice suits and should rightfully be scrutinized, because you hate his opponent, that's obviously your perogative.

No. The fact that he lied on so many men and got them falsely arrested and some killed, he lost all credibility.

Other men were found dead in that prison and other's in that area of Mississippi and other agencies "looked" into those cases as well and they were also labeled a "suicide". There was obvious corruption going on.

So yes I will continue to take the word of a pathologst who was paid, but made sense. He also noted the bruising and black eye on Andre, in which the other DIDN'T note. It's obvious he was lying about the ligature marks as well as saying no other bruising was on Andre to make it look like a hanging

Take it or leave it. If you want to believe the word of someone who got his license taken away for lying and getting multiple men arrested or killed for whatever reason who should rightfully be scrutinized, because you hate his opponent, that's obviously your perogative

No. The fact that he lied on so many men and got them falsely arrested and some killed, he lost all credibility.

Other men were found dead in that prison and other's in that area of Mississippi and other agencies "looked" into those cases as well and they were also labeled a "suicide". There was obvious corruption going on.

So yes I will continue to take the word of a pathologst who was paid, but made sense. He also noted the bruising and black eye on Andre, in which the other DIDN'T note. It's obvious he was lying about the ligature marks as well as saying no other bruising was on Andre to make it look like a hanging

Take it or leave it. If you want to believe the word of someone who got his license taken away for lying and getting multiple men arrested or killed for whatever reason who should rightfully be scrutinized, because you hate his opponent, that's obviously your perogative

Obvious corruption? That's would be quite an assumption of a widespread conspiracy. I can't get with that.

To be fair, Hayne was fired because of the controversy created by the Innocence Project, not because he was proven to have deliberately lied in any of his cases. The Innocence Project eventually paid him a settlement in his defamation suit. As far as I know, he still has his license, but is not allowed to perform autopsies in the state anymore. I personally would not describe him as "esteemed" or "great", but you clearly have very strong feelings for Hayne (I read your deleted post). I don't think our personal opinion of the guy should influence our analysis of this case too much.

I don't hate or have disdain for Bryant, he did what he was paid for. The problem is that his findings were unconvincing and vague. I already discussed the height of the grate and the shoelaces. As for the bruises, is there a third party who can confirm this? Is it possible they could just be signs of decomposition? I'm not automatically going to take the word of Bryant, because, like it or not, he was paid to look for details that might contradict the autopsy report.

Obvious corruption? That's would be quite an assumption of a widespread conspiracy. I can't get with that.

To be fair, Hayne was fired because of the controversy created by the Innocence Project, not because he was proven to have deliberately lied in any of his cases. The Innocence Project eventually paid him a settlement in his defamation suit.

No, there's more. They even wrote a book about him:

https://www.amazon.com/Cadaver-King-Country-Dentist-Injustice/dp/161039691X

"Hayne had also never passed the American Board of Pathology’s certification exam for forensic pathology. In a November 2014 opinion in Koon v. Cain, the New Orleans-based 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals referred to Hayne as a “now-discredited Mississippi coroner” who had “lied about his qualifications as an expert."

https://www.americanbar.org/groups/journal/podcast/20180307-dark-tale-of-the-cadaver-king-and-the-country-dentist-brings-false-convictions-to-light/


I know you're going to say something about how we should discuss the case without his rulings, and how he could still be right but no. We have two pathologist with two different findings, and one has lied in multiple cases to get innocent people convicted. As I've said Andre hanging himself with that thin shoe string from a stall that high doesn't make sense. The family hired pathologist also says it's inconsistent. The one guy who says it makes sense is a known liar and got multiple people incorrectly imprisoned or put on death row.

(I read your deleted post)

:lol::lol: My bad

No, there's more. They even wrote a book about him:

https://www.amazon.com/Cadaver-King-Country-Dentist-Injustice/dp/161039691X

"Hayne had also never passed the American Board of Pathology’s certification exam for forensic pathology. In a November 2014 opinion in Koon v. Cain, the New Orleans-based 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals referred to Hayne as a “now-discredited Mississippi coroner” who had “lied about his qualifications as an expert."

https://www.americanbar.org/groups/journal/podcast/20180307-dark-tale-of-the-cadaver-king-and-the-country-dentist-brings-false-convictions-to-light/


I know you're going to say something about how we should discuss the case without his rulings, and how he could still be right but no. We have two pathologist with two different findings, and one has lied in multiple cases to get innocent people convicted. As I've said Andre hanging himself with that thin shoe string from a stall that high doesn't make sense. The family hired pathologist also says it's inconsistent. The one guy who says it makes sense is a known liar and got multiple people incorrectly imprisoned or put on death row.



:lol::lol: My bad


I did notice that this Hayne issue is very politicized and there are a lot of allegations thrown around. The guys who wrote that book are clearly not without an agenda. I have my own personal opinion about someone doing almost all of the state's autopsies for 20 years while not being the official state examiner and also having a side job, but that's irrelevant. It also seems he didn't actually lie about his credentials, but was misleading by saying he was "certified" (leaving out it was not by the ABPath), which I'm definitely NOT defending.

I can see why people had a problem with him, however, I can't agree it means he was dishonest about the evidence in the cases he examined (incompetent is another thing). I'm just looking at the facts and leave out my judgment of his character, and his findings in this particular case seem reasonable. Now it's good to look critically at his report, but again, I find Bryant's findings vague and unconvincing. There is no proof he used a "thin" shoe lace that couldn't hold his weight and I see no confirmation that the grate was unreachable for André. If we discuss evidence like that, the go-to-answer can't be every time that Hayne is just a liar so Bryant must be speaking the truth.

I find Bryant's findings vague and unconvincing.

And you find Hayne's findings deep and thought-provoking?


If we discuss evidence like that, the go-to-answer can't be every time that Hayne is just a liar so Bryant must be speaking the truth.

Without talking about the pathologist, I've already explained why I think Andre couldn't have hung himself using his own shoe string.

I've said it over and over. We just agree to disagree

And you find Hayne's findings deep and thought-provoking?




Without talking about the pathologist, I've already explained why I think Andre couldn't have hung himself using his own shoe string.

I've said it over and over. We just agree to disagree

Since when does an autopsy report need to be deep and thought-provoking? I found his findings reasonable, clear and supported by other sources. If there's something wrong with it, by all means, point it out.

I don't know what you said elsewhere in the thread, but in our discussion I only recall you mentioning that the shoe lace was too thin, the grate too high, and that there were bruises and ligature marks inconsistent with suicide. When I questioned those findings, even without referencing Hayne, your retort seems to have been that he is unreliable.

I don't even feel like discussing Hayne, since it's the family making claims that go against the official ruling, so I think that is what should be examined to see if they have a point.

supported by other sources

Can you post said sources?

Can you post said sources?

I'm sure you're aware of the accounts of the inmates (including the one that found him). l already mentioned Hayne referring to the tests done by Nike. But I'm certain you dismiss he recreation of the hanging by the sheriff's department. One could, of course, challenge these findings, but I did not think Bryant was able to do so convincingly. Did he even test whether someone the same height as André could've reached the grate?

By the way, below is a link to an article that mentions that Bryant never saw André's body in person.

" Dr. James Bryant also claims that in the photographs of Andre's body, he saw what looked like signs of bruising on parts of the body. In particular, around the eyes and the shoulders.

Due to what he could determine, he alleged that Andre Jones had possibly been killed, and his body was then staged to look like a suicide. However, he did note that this was based on his own gut instinct, since he didn't get to directly examine the body, and - as such - didn't have any direct evidence."

https://unresolved.me/the-mississippi-hangings

I'm sure you're aware of the accounts of the inmates (including the one that found him). l already mentioned Hayne referring to the tests done by Nike. But I'm certain you dismiss he recreation of the hanging by the sheriff's department. One could, of course, challenge these findings, but I did not think Bryant was able to do so convincingly. Did he even test whether someone the same height as André could've reached the grate?

By the way, below is a link to an article that mentions that Bryant never saw André's body in person.

" Dr. James Bryant also claims that in the photographs of Andre's body, he saw what looked like signs of bruising on parts of the body. In particular, around the eyes and the shoulders.

Due to what he could determine, he alleged that Andre Jones had possibly been killed, and his body was then staged to look like a suicide. However, he did note that this was based on his own gut instinct, since he didn't get to directly examine the body, and - as such - didn't have any direct evidence."

https://unresolved.me/the-mississippi-hangings

You said you had sources, can you please post your "source" for the nike test? I can't seem to find it online.

A source that is more than "Hayne said"


By the way, below is a link to an article that mentions that Bryant never saw André's body in person.

" Dr. James Bryant also claims that in the photographs of Andre's body, he saw what looked like signs of bruising on parts of the body. In particular, around the eyes and the shoulders.

Due to what he could determine, he alleged that Andre Jones had possibly been killed, and his body was then staged to look like a suicide. However, he did note that this was based on his own gut instinct, since he didn't get to directly examine the body, and - as such - didn't have any direct evidence."

https://unresolved.me/the-mississippi-hangings

Ah, I see. Thanks for that. While that does weakened his claim on Andre's body I'll still stand by on what he said as I think Andre would've had a hell of a time hanging himself with a shoestring in that shower stall.

Where did he say this?

From this (https://www.nytimes.com/1993/02/21/us/death-in-a-jailhouse-the-ruling-a-suicide-the-fear-a-lynching.html) article.

In fact, evidence of homicide remains elusive. Dr. Bryant's finding of homicide relies largely on a jailer's description of the body and the condition of the cell, an account that is at odds with other reports from the scene.

In interviews, neither investigators nor local reporters nor prisoners' lawyers related any reports of prisoners' seeing any jailers entering the cell or hearing a struggle. Dr. Bryant also agrees that there was no evidence of a struggle, like another person's skin beneath Andre Jones's fingernails.

I wonder if the cops even knew who he or his parents were. The girlfriend did not really come across as very convincing when she described the encounter.

UM really sidestepped the possible connection to the Nation of Islam with this case. I've seen articles referring to his mother with the last name of Muhammad, same with the stepfather. Their attorney was giving interviews shortly after Andre's death saying that he believed the cops wanted to kill Andre because of his ties to the Nation of Islam (stepfather was a minister). So instead of addressing that ridiculous assertion, UM mentions it once by saying his stepfather was a minister with the Nation of Islam, dropped the last name "Muhammad" from the parents, and asserts that it may have been because his mom was a leader in the local NAACP.

His girlfriend lied in her UM interview. There's no two ways about it. He had a gun. The vehicle was stolen. None of this was in dispute when his parents filed a lawsuit for wrongful death.

You said you had sources, can you please post your "source" for the nike test? I can't seem to find it online.

A source that is more than "Hayne said"

I already posted that earlier in the thread:

"According to Nike officials quoted in the Jackson Clarion Ledger, the minimum tensile strength of their shoelace is 150 pounds and the maximum 175 pounds."

If André as a higher than average guy would've had trouble hanging himself, than most likely so would those who supposedly hanged him there.

I already posted that earlier in the thread:

"According to Nike officials quoted in the Jackson Clarion Ledger, the minimum tensile strength of their shoelace is 150 pounds and the maximum 175 pounds."

If André as a higher than average guy would've had trouble hanging himself, than most likely so would those who supposedly hanged him there.

Not to mention the fact that he was found with his feet touching the ground, meaning that the shoelace was not supporting all of his weight.

I already posted that earlier in the thread:

"According to Nike officials quoted in the Jackson Clarion Ledger, the minimum tensile strength of their shoelace is 150 pounds and the maximum 175 pounds."

If André as a higher than average guy would've had trouble hanging himself, than most likely so would those who supposedly hanged him there.

Not if they had something to step on. Also the length of the string determines if he was able to do it alone. Considering how far the string was from the ground, he could've had trouble wrapping the shoe string around his own neck if he wasn't sufficient height

Not to mention the fact that he was found with his feet touching the ground, meaning that the shoelace was not supporting all of his weight.

Yes, he was found with bended knees and his feet touching the ground. The inmate who found him initially thought he was standing in the corner of the shower stall. It's a shame I can't find any police report.

Not if they had something to step on. Also the length of the string determines if he was able to do it alone. Considering how far the string was from the ground, he could've had trouble wrapping the shoe string around his own neck if he wasn't sufficient height

It actually seems more complicated to hang a dead body using a step, than it would standing with both feet on the ground. Also, if you have to use a step, why not realize André was probably not tall enough either and leave the step or hang him from something lower. With all the suicides happening in those prisons, they should've known you don't need to "hang" to strangle yourself.

I still don't see any confirmation how high the grate really was and if someone of André's height could've reached it. Bryant and the stepfather only seem to have made an estimate.

It actually seems more complicated to hang a dead body using a step, than it would standing with both feet on the ground. Also, if you have to use a step, why not realize André was probably not tall enough either and leave the step or hang him from something lower. With all the suicides happening in those prisons, they should've known you don't need to "hang" to strangle yourself.

I still don't see any confirmation how high the grate really was and if someone of André's height could've reached it. Bryant and the stepfather only seem to have made an estimate.

Not necessarily. If he was indeed standing with his feet on the ground, they would just need the step to tie the string on the grate and have him held up enough where they could tie the string around his neck. It also could've been the work of a two man team

As to the logic of why they did or didn't do after the hanging, your guess is as good as mine. With all of those deaths perhaps they got sloppy and stopped caring. If this was the only case that got that much national attention then they were probably careless as they've gotten away with it numerous times

Not necessarily. If he was indeed standing with his feet on the ground, they would just need the step to tie the string on the grate and have him held up enough where they could tie the string around his neck. It also could've been the work of a two man team

As to the logic of why they did or didn't do after the hanging, your guess is as good as mine. With all of those deaths perhaps they got sloppy and stopped caring. If this was the only case that got that much national attention then they were probably careless as they've gotten away with it numerous times

That certainly doesn't seem easier than doing it without a step. I also think if you're careless and sloppy, you wouldn't even bother using a step and just tie him to a doorknob so you hardly have to move his body.

But like I said, before we speculate about the use of a step, we need to know first if the grate was really unreachable for André. You don't find the test by the sheriff's department credible, but I don't see that Bryant or the family did any kind of recreation or measurements.

That certainly doesn't seem easier than doing it without a step. I also think if you're careless and sloppy, you wouldn't even bother using a step and just tie him to a doorknob so you hardly have to move his body.

But like I said, before we speculate about the use of a step, we need to know first if the grate was really unreachable for André. You don't find the test by the sheriff's department credible, but I don't see that Bryant or the family did any kind of recreation or measurements.

No, you would still need to make the hanging look legit to the other prisoners. He was left like that to be found so other prisoners could say they saw him "hanging".

I meant being sloppy in the actual logistics of the scene. You asked why didn't they leave the step if one was used, etc. Again, all of that didn't matter. They just needed witnesses to see that Andre was "hung" realistically enough

No, you would still need to make the hanging look legit to the other prisoners. He was left like that to be found so other prisoners could say they saw him "hanging".

I meant being sloppy in the actual logistics of the scene. You asked why didn't they leave the step if one was used, etc. Again, all of that didn't matter. They just needed witnesses to see that Andre was "hung" realistically enough

But to the inmate who found him it wasn't even obvious he was "hanging", he initially thought he was standing:

"At 11:15 p.m., Spann
and another inmate spy Jones’s half-clothed body in a
corner stall ofthe shower, his hands down by his side.
Spann says to Jones, “Hey dude, you can’t take a
shower with your pants on.” Spann touches him.
“He kind ofpulled back,” Spann remembers. “Felt to
me like he had moved.” Spann leaves. He returns
when Jones still has not come out of the shower.
Then it dawns on Spann that something isn’t right."

I don't see why another kind of strangulation would not be realistic enough, especially if they were going to cover it up anyway. It happens enough.

But I keep going back to the important question whether the grate was even unreachable for André. This grate has also been described as a "shower bar" and "piping". It makes it difficult to picture what it must've looked like, but I think it might've been possible to throw the shoelace over it, like I've thrown ropes over a high tree branch. I don't know which Air Jordans André owned, but its shoe laces can be as long as 180 cm. However, I still don't know exactly how he was tied.

But to the inmate who found him it wasn't even obvious he was "hanging", he initially thought he was standing:

"At 11:15 p.m., Spann
and another inmate spy Jones’s half-clothed body in a
corner stall ofthe shower, his hands down by his side.
Spann says to Jones, “Hey dude, you can’t take a
shower with your pants on.” Spann touches him.
“He kind ofpulled back,” Spann remembers. “Felt to
me like he had moved.” Spann leaves. He returns
when Jones still has not come out of the shower.
Then it dawns on Spann that something isn’t right."


This proves my point that the scene was staged.

If Andre was low enough to look like he was standing on the ground to the point where an inmate couldn't tell he was hanging and actually touched him, then how could Andre kill himself via hanging with his feet on the ground?

So let's say you're correct and the grate was low enough for Andre to hang himself with his shoestring. How is he necessarily "hanging" with both feet in the ground?

This proves my point that the scene was staged.

If Andre was low enough to look like he was standing on the ground to the point where an inmate couldn't tell he was hanging and actually touched him, then how could Andre kill himself via hanging with his feet on the ground?

So let's say you're correct and the grate was low enough for Andre to hang himself with his shoestring. How is he necessarily "hanging" with both feet in the ground?

Why does that prove it's staged? How is else is it going to look if you don't have a step and you have to hang yourself from a standing position? If anything would point to staging, it's if his feet were hanging above the ground with no step in sight.

His feet were touching the ground, but his knees were slightly bended and he was in a crouched/squatted position. He let his body go limp, so to speak.

Why does that prove it's staged? How is else is it going to look if you don't have a step and you have to hang yourself from a standing position? If anything would point to staging, it's if his feet were hanging above the ground with no step in sight.

His feet were touching the ground, but his knees were slightly bended and he was in a crouched/squatted position. He let his body go limp, so to speak.

If Andre was hanging from a position to where he could actually kill himself from hanging, wouldn't the inmate have noticed that at first when he went to touch him? According to the inmate Andre wasn't wearing a shirt, just jeans, so it should've been easy to have spotted his neck dangling from the shoe lace

And on that note the inmate said Andre was half-dressed only wearing jeans. Where did his shirt go? Why would he remove his shirt just to hang himself?

If Andre was hanging from a position to where he could actually kill himself from hanging, wouldn't the inmate have noticed that at first when he went to touch him? According to the inmate Andre wasn't wearing a shirt, just jeans, so it should've been easy to have spotted his neck dangling from the shoe lace

And on that note the inmate said Andre was half-dressed only wearing jeans. Where did his shirt go? Why would he remove his shirt just to hang himself?

In one of the links the shower area was described as being dark and the shoelace was black, of course, making it possibly harder to see. I don't know what these stalls look like and what would've been visible to the inmate, but if André was in an upright position and only slightly crouching, I can understand he didn't expect him to be dead.

I don't see how this would point to foul play, a cover-up or any kind of deception, though. What would be the purpose of telling such a lie? If he's making up a story, why not keep it simple and just say he walked in, took a closer look and saw he had hung himself?

Well, why couldn't he have removed his shirt himself? Maybe he had started to undress to take a shower, but then changed his mind. I don't see how it would suggest foul play or anything else for that matter.

In one of the links the shower area was described as being dark and the shoelace was black, of course, making it possibly harder to see. I don't know what these stalls look like and what would've been visible to the inmate, but if André was in an upright position and only slightly crouching, I can understand he didn't expect him to be dead.

I don't see how this would point to foul play, a cover-up or any kind of deception, though. What would be the purpose of telling such a lie? If he's making up a story, why not keep it simple and just say he walked in, took a closer look and saw he had hung himself?

Well, why couldn't he have removed his shirt himself? Maybe he had started to undress to take a shower, but then changed his mind. I don't see how it would suggest foul play or anything else for that matter.

You misunderstand, I don't think the inmate is lying. I'm saying if the inmate saw Andre with his feet on the ground, and didn't immediate look like he was hung, then I wonder if he could've actually killed himself from his position?

A missing shirt could definitely suggest foul play. I wonder if his shirt was recovered and sent to his parents?

If not, then a shirt could have blood and other DNA it was covered in which is why someone would take it and hide it

You misunderstand, I don't think the inmate is lying. I'm saying if the inmate saw Andre with his feet on the ground, and didn't immediate look like he was hung, then I wonder if he could've actually killed himself from his position?

A missing shirt could definitely suggest foul play. I wonder if his shirt was recovered and sent to his parents?

If not, then a shirt could have blood and other DNA it was covered in which is why someone would take it and hide it

He was in a squat position, but not all the way down. Even that is definitely going to put pressure on the neck. It may not have been a normal position for someone to stand in, but I can see how it didn't immediately look like an hanging.

He wasn't wearing a shirt in the shower, which isn't so strange. I have no clue if the shirt was missing, you would've expected the parents to mention it. Speculating about possible blood is too much conjecture for me, especially since he didn't have any injuries that suggest he had been bleeding. As for DNA from guards or inmates, meh, I don't see the problem, there is bound to be some physical interaction. This was also 1992 when there was a lot less awareness about DNA.

He was in a squat position, but not all the way down. Even that is definitely going to put pressure on the neck. It may not have been a normal position for someone to stand in, but I can see how it didn't immediately look like an hanging.

He wasn't wearing a shirt in the shower, which isn't so strange. I have no clue if the shirt was missing, you would've expected the parents to mention it. Speculating about possible blood is too much conjecture for me, especially since he didn't have any injuries that suggest he had been bleeding. As for DNA from guards or inmates, meh, I don't see the problem, there is bound to be some physical interaction. This was also 1992 when there was a lot less awareness about DNA.

It's not so strange he wasn't wearing a shirt in the shower, but kept his jeans on? So I guess after taking his shirt off and getting ready for a shower, he just decided to commit suicide mid-change?

So speculating about an article of clothing that he isn't oddly wearing that could be missing due to foul play in a jail in which MULTIPLE men have been found dead with corrupted pathologist is too much conjecture for you, but Andre being hung by a shoestring with his feet on the ground sounds just swell??

It's not so strange he wasn't wearing a shirt in the shower, but kept his jeans on? So I guess after taking his shirt off and getting ready for a shower, he just decided to commit suicide mid-change?

So speculating about an article of clothing that he isn't oddly wearing that could be missing due to foul play in a jail in which MULTIPLE men have been found dead with corrupted pathologist is too much conjecture for you, but Andre being hung by a shoestring with his feet on the ground sounds just swell??

Just because he might've wanted to take a shower does not mean it was a sudden decision and that he hadn't already been contemplating suicide. But I can't look inside his head. Maybe he just wanted to get more comfortable before doing the deed. Some people go completely nude. I'm sorry, but a guy wearing pants but no shirt is not as odd as you make it out to be. It's not like he was actually showering.

Your comparison is just incredibly wonky. Speculating about possible blood on a shirt we don't even know is missing is way too much conjecture, absolutely.

There is really nothing weird about hanging in a squatting position. That's what happens when you try to strangle yourself from a standing position (going either forwards or backwards). Only question is whether the shoelace was long and strong enough and it seems it was, based on the information from Nike. That's far from conjecture.

There was no evidence of a struggle. If there was an inmate who intercepted Andre while he was trying to take a shower, there would have been evidence of a struggle, and the other inmates would have reported hearing a scuffle. If there is anyone to blame, it was the terrible conditions of the Mississippi jails back then.

Only question is whether the shoelace was long and strong enough and it seems it was, based on the information from Nike. That's far from conjecture.

Apparently Nike said it was strong enough, nothing was said about length. These two pictures are of terrible quality as I took them from the segment so forgive me, but it's the only thing I can find. Looks rather short


There was no evidence of a struggle. If there was an inmate who intercepted Andre while he was trying to take a shower, there would have been evidence of a struggle, and the other inmates would have reported hearing a scuffle. If there is anyone to blame, it was the terrible conditions of the Mississippi jails back then.

They could've blindsided Andre from behind, knocked him out, and then strangled him. The sound of the showers running could've muffled the sounds of a scuffle if there was one

Apparently Nike said it was strong enough, nothing was said about length. These two pictures are of terrible quality as I took them from the segment so forgive me, but it's the only thing I can find. Looks rather short

According to the website below (and several others), the shoe laces of the Air Jordans he was wearing ( Air Jordan 7 "Bordeaux") were around 180 cm long. They were high tops, so they couldn't have been all that short. But honestly, I can't see what the proportions are in those pictures.

https://www.sneakergear.eu/lace-length-guide/?srsltid=AfmBOoovbuA9RCyKjBjfRzlTcA5NgrHfSkNaTqMBK9ysMMfYIhfFCjH6

Thing is, you said you believed the inmate wasn't lying. If so, he was telling the truth about finding André hanging with bended knees and his feet touching the ground. Which means the laces would've been long enough.

Thing is, you said you believed the inmate wasn't lying. If so, he was telling the truth about finding André hanging with bended knees and his feet touching the ground. Which means the laces would've been long enough.

I know. However, looking at these photos it does look a bit short

I know. However, looking at these photos it does look a bit short

I'm going to assume they cut the string to remove his body? So it was likely longer. Do pictures of him still hanging exist?

I'm going to assume they cut the string to remove his body? So it was likely longer. Do pictures of him still hanging exist?

Not that I could find

A black man being hung in the south is 9/10 murder. I've been alive 39 years and have known lots of people and only knew one black man who killed himself and he was mentally ill. I'm going with murder for 400 Alex!

The fact his mother was part of the NAACP and his step-father was in the Nation of Islam tells me everything I need to know.

Some of you are oblivious to how absolutely racist the south is and dangerous for people of color even today. Anytime I visit I am on high alert.

Some of you are oblivious to how absolutely racist the south is and dangerous for people of color even today. Anytime I visit I am on high alert.

I'm not going to pretend to know what its like, but I do believe that your likelihood of having a decent interaction with law enforcement increases significantly if you aren't driving a stolen vehicle with an altered vin number while armed and drinking beer.

I'm not going to pretend to know what its like, but I do believe that your likelihood of having a decent interaction with law enforcement increases significantly if you aren't driving a stolen vehicle with an altered vin number while armed and drinking beer.


Be that as it may the punishment (death) doesn't fit the crime. An 18 year old is still psychologically a child; his mind is not fully developed. He didn't murder anyone. If he were a troubled teen who committed crimes that doesn't mean he wasn't targeted for being black.

The kid was college bound despite all of this and had a future. I believe this kid was targeted by police and they made an example out of him probably because he may have felt protected due to his parent's connections thinking he could do as he pleased without consequences.

An 18 year old is still psychologically a child; his mind is not fully developed.

I would agree and this is a big reason why the voting age should be raised in this country.

He didn't murder anyone. If he were a troubled teen who committed crimes that doesn't mean he wasn't targeted for being black.

There were other motorists stopped at a routine sobriety checkpoint. Are you suggesting that they set this checkpoint up with the express purpose of hoping to get lucky that Andre would pass through in a stolen vehicle with a gun?

The kid was college bound despite all of this and had a future. I believe this kid was targeted by police and they made an example out of him probably because he may have felt protected due to his parent's connections thinking he could do as he pleased without consequences.

The cops who arrested him...had him transferred to a county jail 30 miles south from where he was arrested due to overcrowding at their jail. If they wanted to make "an example out of him", how exactly did they get the guards at completely different jail to kill this kid and for what purpose exactly? And they got everyone in that holding cell to keep quiet about it for over 30 years?

The cops who arrested him...had him transferred to a county jail 30 miles south from where he was arrested due to overcrowding at their jail. If they wanted to make "an example out of him", how exactly did they get the guards at completely different jail to kill this kid and for what purpose exactly? And they got everyone in that holding cell to keep quiet about it for over 30 years?

While I think it's less likely that law enforcement and corrections across jurisdictions entered into an actual organized conspiracy to murder Andre, I don't think it's far-fetched at all that the authorities transferring custody could have hinted to Simpson County to give him the treatment, so to speak.

We don't know a lot about the other people being detained in the holding cell that night, but the fact that there hasn't been a report of someone coming forward in 30 years isn't surprising to me, either. Although the circumstances are completely different, Jay Given was shot in a building where 400 people were present and nearly 45 years later no one has ever claimed to have actually witnessed the shooting nor the shooter.

While I think it's less likely that law enforcement and corrections across jurisdictions entered into an actual organized conspiracy to murder Andre, I don't think it's far-fetched at all that the authorities transferring custody could have hinted to Simpson County to give him the treatment, so to speak.

We don't know a lot about the other people being detained in the holding cell that night, but the fact that there hasn't been a report of someone coming forward in 30 years isn't surprising to me, either. Although the circumstances are completely different, Jay Given was shot in a building where 400 people were present and nearly 45 years later no one has ever claimed to have actually witnessed the shooting nor the shooter.

The problem with Andre Jones is that people get so wrapped up in the race relations of the case that they gloss over the fact that MULTIPLE people have died in that jail and others in the area, including white men.

So there was obviously some sort of corruption in that system be it from officers or other prisoners

The problem with Andre Jones is that people get so wrapped up in the race relations of the case that they gloss over the fact that MULTIPLE people have died in that jail and others in the area, including white men.

So there was obviously some sort of corruption in that system be it from officers or other prisoners

Freakbook is absolutely right! Institutional facilities whether they are jails or mental hospitals are responsible for the shelter, feeding and safety of of their inmates. Even if Andre was suicidal they were obligated to protect him. There was something wrong with the system and the specific facility.
Race, religion, sexual orientation, ethnicity etc are factors in these cases but not always.

This is a little off topic but Infinityluxe and Cars1986 are hung up on the myth of 18 year old immaturity. The constitutional right for 18 year olds to vote was bought and paid for by 18 year old draftees with their lives, mutilated bodies etc. when they served our nation during the wars of the twentieth century. You don't have to believe me. Go visit any VA medical center.

While I think it's less likely that law enforcement and corrections across jurisdictions entered into an actual organized conspiracy to murder Andre, I don't think it's far-fetched at all that the authorities transferring custody could have hinted to Simpson County to give him the treatment, so to speak.

But...why? He was cooperative with them, he told them the vehicle wasn't his, he didn't argue or try to fight with the arresting officers. Then he continues to be cooperative at the station by allowing them to take pictures of gang symbols that he was aware of (I know some people dispute this as ever taking place, but it seems like such a bizarre thing to make up out of whole cloth).

We don't know a lot about the other people being detained in the holding cell that night, but the fact that there hasn't been a report of someone coming forward in 30 years isn't surprising to me, either. Although the circumstances are completely different, Jay Given was shot in a building where 400 people were present and nearly 45 years later no one has ever claimed to have actually witnessed the shooting nor the shooter.

According to Andre's stepfather, one of the inmates said they took Andre from the cell and then brought him back in a wheelchair and then laid him in the shower and staged the scene.

I still contend that if he was murdered, it would have been committed by someone in that holding cell, not one of the jailers. Emily Ward, who was interviewed at the end of the segment, concluded that he committed suicide. My guess is they talked to or interviewed multiple people, including the ones in the holding cell with Andre that night.

So there was obviously some sort of corruption in that system be it from officers or other prisoners

It could just be total incompetence and/or indifference, and wouldn't require any of the officers to lift a single finger on any of the prisoners. Allowing prisoners to go into a holding cell without removing their shoes would be a big indicator of incompetence on the part of that jail.

It could just be total incompetence and/or indifference, and wouldn't require any of the officers to lift a single finger on any of the prisoners. Allowing prisoners to go into a holding cell without removing their shoes would be a big indicator of incompetence on the part of that jail.

For Andre, perhaps. But as I've stated there were NUMEROUS stories of others inmates dying or getting injured in that prison

Hence why I said there was corruption somewhere

Double post

For Andre, perhaps. But as I've stated there were NUMEROUS stories of others inmates dying or getting injured in that prison

Hence why I said there was corruption somewhere

The segment says it was 48 people found dead in several Mississippi jails. Half of them black, half of them white. Not specifically the same one Andre was found in.

But...why? He was cooperative with them, he told them the vehicle wasn't his, he didn't argue or try to fight with the arresting officers. Then he continues to be cooperative at the station by allowing them to take pictures of gang symbols that he was aware of (I know some people dispute this as ever taking place, but it seems like such a bizarre thing to make up out of whole cloth).

Well, they also say he threw a .38 handgun out of the truck and had a concealed open container of alcohol under his seat when asked to pull over to the side of the checkpoint. So by their own account, he attempted to elude or delude the police. That's not full cooperation. Those kinds of behaviors also have the potential to piss officers off, especially if they're tired, stressed, and/or already coming into the situation with prejudicial assumptions about race.

I agree that the gang signs photo story does seem like a bizarre, kind of random thing to just lie about on its face. A possible theory I've had for a while about it is that the police threatened Andre into "admitting" he was a gang member, and that they thought either the story itself, the actual photos (if they were even taken), or both could be used to bolster a story supporting suicide. He was absolutely caught and he knew it, and before he took his own life in total despair he spilled his guts, so the narrative would conceivably go. He definitely had a lot to lose: he was an engineering student at Alcorn State at the time and his parents were prominent people in the community.

(An aside on the photos themselves: I listened to Robin's podcast episode on this case on the way home from work this afternoon, and something that jumped out at me that he mentioned was that the police said the photos didn't actually show Andre's face. I thought, hell, they could have been planning to use photos taken with a totally different person from a totally different case to support the contention that Andre confessed that he was in a gang. Maybe the law enforcement personnel involved realized they couldn't get access to the photos in question, or that they had been destroyed, and that's why we've never seen them.)

According to Andre's stepfather, one of the inmates said they took Andre from the cell and then brought him back in a wheelchair and then laid him in the shower and staged the scene.

I stand corrected. From what I recall from the aforementioned TTWC episode, this came from a single inmate and nobody else in the holding cell corroborated his story. That's both interesting and suspicious.

I still contend that if he was murdered, it would have been committed by someone in that holding cell, not one of the jailers.

I think that's reasonable. What do you think of the likelihood that
one or a few of the inmates were encouraged by jailers to "deal" with him while they turned a blind eye, a la a David Cox "code red" situation? Or do you think it's more likely, in a murder scenario, that it was the end result of a personal beef with another inmate or group of inmates?


When it comes to this case, I do think negligence and abusive behavior toward Mississippi inmates was doled out to black and white alike, AND that if Andre was murdered, it is entirely reasonable to suspect a racial component could have played part of that role. I don't see them as mutually exclusive.

I agree that the gang signs photo story does seem like a bizarre, kind of random thing to just lie about on its face. A possible theory I've had for a while about it is that the police threatened Andre into "admitting" he was a gang member, and that they thought either the story itself, the actual photos (if they were even taken), or both could be used to bolster a story supporting suicide. He was absolutely caught and he knew it, and before he took his own life in total despair he spilled his guts, so the narrative would conceivably go. He definitely had a lot to lose: he was an engineering student at Alcorn State at the time and his parents were prominent people in the community.

Even if you remove the gang photos from the equation, all of the above are legitimate reasons as to why someone with their whole future ahead of them would choose to commit suicide under the same circumstances.

I think that's reasonable. What do you think of the likelihood that one or a few of the inmates were encouraged by jailers to "deal" with him while they turned a blind eye, a la a David Cox "code red" situation? Or do you think it's more likely, in a murder scenario, that it was the end result of a personal beef with another inmate or group of inmates?

I think it's much, much more likely that he was killed because he was perceived as a snitch, or perhaps by someone in a rival gang.

When it comes to this case, I do think negligence and abusive behavior toward Mississippi inmates was doled out to black and white alike, AND that if Andre was murdered, it is entirely reasonable to suspect a racial component could have played part of that role. I don't see them as mutually exclusive.

The only time race was brought into this case was from a guy belonging to a virulent anti-Semitic "religion"...I don't take what he says seriously. Andre was arrested on legitimate grounds. His parents (birth father and mother both filed a joint lawsuit) concede that he was arrested for the open container, the gun, and the stolen vehicle with an altered VIN number in their lawsuits. There is nothing to suggest that he was targeted for his arrest. After the fact? I guess it's possible that someone was upset with him for some perceived racial grievance, and that is something the stepfather says he was told ("stealing a white man's truck"). The problem with that, is how would the cops know the owner of the vehicle's race, or even know this person at all to want to make an example out of Andre? What about this one guy was so dubious that he was the one they were going to make an example out of?

The simple answer is usually the correct one. The guards at these prisons simply did not care enough to do their jobs, which resulted in some prisoners killing themselves.

The simple answer is usually the correct one. The guards at these prisons simply did not care enough to do their jobs, which resulted in some prisoners killing themselves.

Or the guards didn't care enough to do their jobs, which resulted in some prisoners killing each other. People kill each other in prison. It happens. That rapper Tory Lanez was just nearly stabbed to death in prison and he's somewhat famous, so why is it so outlandish that Andre was murdered? I strongly doubt all 48 deaths were suicides.

I don't care about race, I don't care about politics, I don't care in guessing what Andre would or wouldn't do, but I don't see anyone hanging themselves with that shoestring

Or the guards didn't care enough to do their jobs, which resulted in some prisoners killing each other. People kill each other in prison. It happens. That rapper Tory Lanez was just nearly stabbed to death in prison and he's somewhat famous, so why is it so outlandish that Andre was murdered? I strongly doubt all 48 deaths were suicides.

I don't care about race, I don't care about politics, I don't care in guessing what Andre would or wouldn't do, but I don't see anyone hanging themselves with that shoestring

Thanks, FB, for trying to refocus this on facts of the case instead of identity politics.

I find it hard to believe that cops at a DWI checkpoint just happened to concoct a scheme within which Andre was driving a stolen truck (easy enough to confirm), with an open container (hopefully prints were taken from the container), and tossed a gun (again hopefully prints were taken) out of the window. If they had targeted him, just one of the three would have warranted detainment. I think he knew he was in deep s-hit, and perhaps it wasn't the first time. You generally don't make a trifecta of criminal mistakes like that having not made one before, previously caught or not. Also, how would those in PD who set up the checkpoint even know Andre would be nearby, let alone driving right through at that time?

And as far as the shoestring goes, it doesn't take much. I've interned in psych wards and there's a reason they take your shoes and/or laces. Comes down to physics I suppose.

So, I think this case was overdramatized by UM. Lots of the suicide cases (perhaps most) were - to sensationalize the alternate foul-play theories. I think he did indeed hang himself in that cell. However, there's plenty of sketchiness, especially after his apprehension, to warrant attention.

Even if you remove the gang photos from the equation, all of the above are legitimate reasons as to why someone with their whole future ahead of them would choose to commit suicide under the same circumstances.

Oh yeah. I don't disagree.

I think it's much, much more likely that he was killed because he was perceived as a snitch, or perhaps by someone in a rival gang.

If this is a holding cell in which he's been placed for only a few hours over 30 miles away from Jackson, who would you imagine would be so incensed over Jones' perceived snitching that he'd murder him right then and there?

Do we know for sure that Jones was a gang member?

The only time race was brought into this case was from a guy belonging to a virulent anti-Semitic "religion"...I don't take what he says seriously.

I thought Andre's mother and stepfather were among the first people to contend that race could have played a role.

Andre was arrested on legitimate grounds. His parents (birth father and mother both filed a joint lawsuit) concede that he was arrested for the open container, the gun, and the stolen vehicle with an altered VIN number in their lawsuits. There is nothing to suggest that he was targeted for his arrest.

I agree. He wasn't arrested unlawfully given what we know about that arrest. And of course the fact that this arrest was the result of his coming through a sobriety checkpoint doesn't support Andre Jones being specifically targeted for arrest at all.

After the fact?

See, that's what I'm far more curious about.

I guess it's possible that someone was upset with him for some perceived racial grievance, and that is something the stepfather says he was told ("stealing a white man's truck"). The problem with that, is how would the cops know the owner of the vehicle's race, or even know this person at all to want to make an example out of Andre? What about this one guy was so dubious that he was the one they were going to make an example out of?

We really don't know much. I'm not necessarily sure, if it was an authority-led and/or -perpetrated death, that it could only come down to "making an example" out of him. That would imply they wanted to intimidate a group. Maybe they just wanted to intimidate Andre (for any number of reasons--maybe he got kind of mouthy between the arrest and being placed in the tank. Maybe he was showing clear signs of fear and a particularly sadistic person enjoyed toying with him) and they took it much farther than they intended.

The simple answer is usually the correct one. The guards at these prisons simply did not care enough to do their jobs, which resulted in some prisoners killing themselves.

I guess where we disagree right now is that I see the guards being directly responsible as simple an answer as one or more inmate being directly responsible. We could argue about likelihood, but I think a big piece of information we'd need is the actual total time Jones spent outside the cell with authorities compared to that spent inside the cell with the others being detained.

I don't care about race, I don't care about politics, I don't care in guessing what Andre would or wouldn't do, but I don't see anyone hanging themselves with that shoestring

That's actually one thing I think the suicide theory proponents have that supports their position: suicidal people who are prepared to act in an institutional environment really will use whatever's available to them. In the hospital I work in (I'm a nurse), you can't even leave a plastic nasal cannula with a suicidal patient by our policy. Of course, healthcare facilities and systems are well-known for implementing an abundance of caution in order to avoid potential litigation, but you can't help but imagine that somebody's probably tried it before somewhere at some time.

If this is a holding cell in which he's been placed for only a few hours over 30 miles away from Jackson, who would you imagine would be so incensed over Jones' perceived snitching that he'd murder him right then and there?

Do we know for sure that Jones was a gang member?

That was my mistake. I thought the photographs were taken at the transfer station after the fact. The point still stands that any inmate in that holding cell could have a multitude of reasons to want to harm him in there.

We do not know for sure that he was in a gang. At the very least, I would surmise he hung around people who were gang members, and I think if the gang photos are real, he thought he was doing the right thing by telling the cops about them.

I thought Andre's mother and stepfather were among the first people to contend that race could have played a role.

The stepfather is a Nation of Islam member and that's who I was referring to. And the idea that these cops recognized Andre as being the son of a local NAACP member is just laughably absurd. Jones is such a common name.

We really don't know much. I'm not necessarily sure, if it was an authority-led and/or -perpetrated death, that it could only come down to "making an example" out of him. That would imply they wanted to intimidate a group. Maybe they just wanted to intimidate Andre (for any number of reasons--maybe he got kind of mouthy between the arrest and being placed in the tank. Maybe he was showing clear signs of fear and a particularly sadistic person enjoyed toying with him) and they took it much farther than they intended.

The showing signs of fear is also possible with someone in the holding cell with him.

I guess where we disagree right now is that I see the guards being directly responsible as simple an answer as one or more inmate being directly responsible. We could argue about likelihood, but I think a big piece of information we'd need is the actual total time Jones spent outside the cell with authorities compared to that spent inside the cell with the others being detained.

I keep going back to the number of people in the cell with him. This case was looked at repeatedly. Dr. Emily Ward was not someone from the 'good ole boys network'. She was one of the people who were actually trying (https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2008/02/mississippi-s-criminal-forensics-disaster.html) to actively fight against the junk forensic science that was often being used in these death investigations. These people in the cell had to have been interviewed. By multiple agencies. And they (including Dr. Ward) still concluded suicide.3

ETA: I did not know that Andre's parents filed a wrongful death lawsuit both state and federally. The federal suit was dismissed in 1996. The state suit went all the way to the Mississippi Supreme Court before being dismissed in 2002.

That's actually one thing I think the suicide theory proponents have that supports their position: suicidal people who are prepared to act in an institutional environment really will use whatever's available to them. In the hospital I work in (I'm a nurse), you can't even leave a plastic nasal cannula with a suicidal patient by our policy. Of course, healthcare facilities and systems are well-known for implementing an abundance of caution in order to avoid potential litigation, but you can't help but imagine that somebody's probably tried it before somewhere at some time.

Correct, and I understand that. If the details of his suicide made sense then I'd be more agreeable, however there's a few things that I question

His father (I know it should be taken with a grain of salt) said that the rail that that the shoestring was tied to was above the showerhead and would've required a stepladder for him to stand on

If what his Father said is true regarding the height then it would've been fairly difficult for him to have hung himself with a shoestring. Add in the height of the rail it was tied from, plus the length that is lost after you tied the string to the rail, would he would've had enough string and height to do it?

If it was too high then what did he stand on to tie the shoestring? I think two people were involved. Someone held him up while the other tied the lace

A black man being hung in the south is 9/10 murder. I've been alive 39 years and have known lots of people and only knew one black man who killed himself and he was mentally ill. I'm going with murder for 400 Alex!

The fact his mother was part of the NAACP and his step-father was in the Nation of Islam tells me everything I need to know.

Some of you are oblivious to how absolutely racist the south is and dangerous for people of color even today. Anytime I visit I am on high alert.

I live in the South, not Mississippi but live in Virginia and work in Tennessee. And though I can't claim to have been in every rural community in the south, you can't either I'm almost certain, at least where I live this is mostly hogwash. I work with black people, and seen them interact with the community and by and large they go where they please without being bothered, places where they didn't dare back as recently as the 1980's in some cases. I would wager they along with anyone else are safer in southern rural communities than they would be in the cities. And the fact that most African Americans in the country still live in the South probably proves that. In most places here, if you go about your business and don't bother anyone whether you are black or white there is probably over a 90% chance you won't be bothered yourself. Yes things can happen anywhere and I'm not saying this is absolute. But overall, its far from the danger you are saying.

That being said, in the case of Andre Jones I would honestly be surprised if there was not some nefarious behavior that went on. I believe at the very least these cops were very 'careless' with his rights. Regardless of what happened at that check point even if it was the worst case scenario described by the cops which I have my doubts about, this kid should have had an opportunity to lawyer up before being thrown in a dangerous jail with a bunch of riffraff, no question about it. And I can't imagine why he would commit suicide unless he believed he wasn't getting out for a long time. something that would have been for a jury to determine. I don't know for certain he was murdered, but at the very least this was handled poorly and never should have happened.

Regardless of what happened at that check point even if it was the worst case scenario described by the cops which I have my doubts about, this kid should have had an opportunity to lawyer up before being thrown in a dangerous jail with a bunch of riffraff, no question about it.

He was driving a stolen vehicle with an unlicensed handgun and an open container of beer. You don't simply let that person go on their own recognizance...you generally either have them see a court commissioner or a judge depending on the severity of the charges before they are released. Sometimes a bond is set. Other times, usually for DUI, you are taken to a court commissioner. It varies by state, obviously.

In both the federal and state wrongful death lawsuits brought by Andre's parents, it was affirmed that he was driving a stolen vehicle in possession of a firearm. These are not disputable facts, even by his parents in the lawsuit.

He was driving a stolen vehicle with an unlicensed handgun and an open container of beer. You don't simply let that person go on their own recognizance...you generally either have them see a court commissioner or a judge depending on the severity of the charges before they are released. Sometimes a bond is set. Other times, usually for DUI, you are taken to a court commissioner. It varies by state, obviously.

In both the federal and state wrongful death lawsuits brought by Andre's parents, it was affirmed that he was driving a stolen vehicle in possession of a firearm. These are not disputable facts, even by his parents in the lawsuit.

I'm not saying Andre should never have been arrested. But you and I both know that this situation should not have led to what was effectively a death sentence. And the fact that this prison has had multiple suspicious deaths and occurred in a state that even as late as the 1990's didn't exactly have a great reputation for race relations at the very least raises red flags.

Even if this was a suicide, I seriously doubt Andre would have killed himself unless he either experienced something that was badly traumatizing as a result of being thrown in there with riffraff, or was convinced he was not getting out for a long time. Which was the decision of a jury not a bunch of overzealous cops. Either way this was at the very least handled very poorly, at worst something nefarious happened.

And the fact that this prison has had multiple suspicious deaths and occurred in a state that even as late as the 1990's didn't exactly have a great reputation for race relations at the very least raises red flags.

I don't know why this keeps getting repeated, but the segment never once says that any other death other than Andre's happened at this particular prison. They include every prison in the state of Mississippi when they throw out that 48 suspicious deaths number.

The stepfather is a Nation of Islam member and that's who I was referring to.

I honestly thought you were talking about Louis Farrakhan. :lol::lol::lol: I think that's because I read some articles about this case wherein Farrakhan was either remarking about the case, pushing for an investigation, or both.


I keep going back to the number of people in the cell with him. This case was looked at repeatedly. Dr. Emily Ward was not someone from the 'good ole boys network'. She was one of the people who were actually trying (https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2008/02/mississippi-s-criminal-forensics-disaster.html) to actively fight against the junk forensic science that was often being used in these death investigations. These people in the cell had to have been interviewed. By multiple agencies. And they (including Dr. Ward) still concluded suicide.

I think this is the single strongest piece of supportive evidence favoring the suicide theory, in my opinion.

ETA: I did not know that Andre's parents filed a wrongful death lawsuit both state and federally. The federal suit was dismissed in 1996. The state suit went all the way to the Mississippi Supreme Court before being dismissed in 2002.

Now that's interesting. I'd love to see upon what grounds Mississippi dismissed it in particular.

Now that's interesting. I'd love to see upon what grounds Mississippi dismissed it in particular.

I found this (https://www.casemine.com/judgement/us/59147b2aadd7b0493441813e) decision from the Supreme Court of Mississippi affirming the state lawsuit being dismissed, but this was after an appeal (and the federal suit was also dismissed, but cannot find anything on that online but it's referenced here). Andre's parents tried to claim that the cops had no probable cause to arrest Andre, but that was rejected:

[T]hey (plaintiff/appellants) allege that these defendants illegally arrested Jones without probable cause and thereafter refused to set bond for him, in violation of the United States Constitution; had Jones not been illegally arrested and denied bail, they reason, he would not have been in the Simpson County Jail on August 22, 1992, and thus would not have been killed. This argument is patently without merit.

That was from the district judge's opinion in the dismissal of the federal lawsuit. The state, as far as I can tell, relied on the reasons for the federal lawsuit being dismissed for their suit to be dismissed as well.

How come you never talk on the Andre Jones Case? He was pulled over at a sobriety check point. Cops said threw gun out the window and had an open container of alcohol and was driving a stolen car. He had three charged on him. Andre hung himself in the jail. He parents refuse to believe he killed himself. The court and the coroner said it was suicide. The cops also said they took pictures of Andre making gang signs. Andre's girlfriend denied the whole thing. I had a hard time believing Andre's parents because the only evidence they had for another criminal in same cell. How do they know that dude is saying what they want to here , so he gets something out of it?

How come you never talk on the Andre Jones Case? He was pulled over at a sobriety check point. Cops said threw gun out the window and had an open container of alcohol and was driving a stolen car. He had three charged on him. Andre hung himself in the jail. He parents refuse to believe he killed himself. The court and the coroner said it was suicide. The cops also said they took pictures of Andre making gang signs. Andre's girlfriend denied the whole thing. I had a hard time believing Andre's parents because the only evidence they had for another criminal in same cell. How do they know that dude is saying what they want to here , so he gets something out of it?

We bumped a ten-page thread about Andre Jones back in late June.

https://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?t=351764&page=10

Sorry I put his name in the search engine and it kept coming up nothing. weird.