Read it and weep - and scream! This one's for you, Marlene! :eek2:

http://www.billboard.com/articles/news/6554067/raps-impact-outweighs-beatles-study


The impact of hip-hop's arrival on the pop music scene eclipsed that of the Beatles-led British invasion of 1964, a computer analysis of 17,000 songs has found.

The unusual study found three revolutions on the charts: the 1991 emergence of rap and hip-hop on mainstream charts; the synth-led new wave movement of 1983, and the advent of the Beatles, Rolling Stones, The Who and other British rockers in the early 1960s.

Although the Beatles -- paced by the songwriting of John Lennon and Paul McCartney -- enjoy perhaps the highest place in critics' esteem, the researchers found the hip-hop movement -- from pioneers like Afrika Bambaataa to megastars like Jay-Z -- more profound.

They wrote that the rise of rap and related genres represents "the single most important event that has shaped the musical structure of the American charts in the period we studied."

By contrast, the British bands -- heavily influenced by U.S. stars like Chuck Berry and Little Richard -- were found to have followed existing trends.

That finding may trouble Beatles fans who think rock 'n' roll was invented with "Please Please Me" and "She Loves You." And it does not address why the Rolling Stones can still sell out arenas more than 50 years after they set the London club scene on fire with a British take on Chicago blues.

The study, released on Wednesday, was conducted by the University of London and Imperial College.

The researchers analyzed 30-second snippets of roughly 17,000 songs from the U.S. Billboard Hot 100 charts from 1960 to 2010.

Computer programs were used to categorize each song based on musical properties, instrumentation used, chord patterns and other elements.

Lead author Matthias Mauch said some may disagree with this scientific approach to a very personal subject but asserted the study breaks new ground.

"For the first time we can measure musical properties in recordings on a large scale," he said. "We can actually go beyond what music experts tell us, or what we know ourselves about them, by looking directly into the songs, measuring their make-up, and understanding how they have changed."

The authors claim the study provides "the basis for the scientific study of musical change" and could be used to provide useful analysis of music from other countries as well.

The study is not likely to be popular with aging musicians who peaked in the mid-1980s, which the researchers found to be the most static period in the study.

The authors also rejected the assertion that today's pop music is increasingly homogenized.

When I first was exposed to N.W.A. in 1988, I could not make heads or tails of how kids like this dreck. It was obnoxious noise that was all confrontational and non-musical. puke:

The "profound" impact of rap and hip-hop on popular music and culture. That's because music has been reduced to the lowest common denominator to where it's not even music anymore. Guitar legend Yngwie Malmsteen said it best: In his quote of Mozart, "Music is melody and melody is music". Rap is all about "rhythm" (I really find nothing very rhythmic about it, it's very pedestrian), and tries to steer clear of melody and musical structure.

I can see comparisons, however, with rap and The Beatles: "Revolution #9", for one. :nod:

COME ON, PEOPLE!!! LET'S SAVE ROCK AND ROLL!!!

I recall reading in the catbox liner of a rag like Rolling Stone where some up-and-coming rapper/techno-music star said that the turntable is replacing the electric guitar as the instrument of choice.

Didn't they make such bad predictions thirty-five years ago with synthesizers in synth-pop?

Shawn Carter - you know, Beyonce's husband? - once told Pharrell Williams that hip-hop was becoming a cultural force in the late eighties, because "those 'hair bands' were too easy for us to take out." "Take out?" Like shooting targets? I hated the hair bands, but Mr. Carter seemed to be suggesting pleasure at the opportunity to attack rock and roll at its weakest, then bury it for good. But then just as hip-hop was about to rule the world, "grunge music stopped it for one second, ya know?" He said that when Nirvana came out, "it was like," 'We gotta wait awhile.'" Gee, Mr. Carter, I'm so f:censored:in' sorry Kurt Cobain so rudely interrupted your plan for world domination, but who cares when grunge died out and you got what you wanted, including a glamorous wife and a thriving hip-hop business, now you get to go all over the world with Beyonce while aspiring rockers who work at Wal-Mart and don't have girlfriends live in their parents' basements working for a record deal that they're never going to get because rock is supposedly "out." I feel like breaking out in song, the song being Family's "Drink To You," which opens with the lyric, "Sometimes I wanna blow my brains out when I think I'm getting near the end!"

It'll be many years before popular music has the impact it had 50 years ago. That music went straight into the mainstream via Ed Sullivan and powerful radio stations. Even if they didn't like them, old Bing Crosby fans still recognized the Beatles music. Delivery of music is so fragmented today that only the Super Bowl halftime show delivers a general audience like the one that used to hear top- 40 music every day.

And the Super Bowl halftime show doesn't use rockers anymore. They're either too old (the Who, Paul McCartney) or not famous enough (the Black Keys, the Alabama Shakes). I think the NFL has gotten pop divas for what, four years straight? Guitar rock isn't macho enough for the NFL anymore????? :eek:

The people who said "Rock and Roll is here to Stay" lied to us...

Looks like Rock is Dead!

The people who said "Rock and Roll is here to Stay" lied to us...

Looks like Rock is Dead!

It was murdered.

Here are the suspects!

And here's the eulogy:

watch?v=co4krl2xge0

As soon as rap music starting creeping into mainstream films like Ghostbusters 2 and Rocky V I knew music was changing for the worse.

I for one have never liked rap music except for the catchy tunes by The Sugarhill Gang, MC Hammer and yeah even Vanilla Ice.

Kanye West has declared war on rock and roll on behalf of all hip-hop/EDM performers. We gotta fight back!

:rolleyes:

It was murdered.

Here are the suspects!

What's pic #1?

Lady Gaga and Justin Timberlake killed what was left over. Kanye West must quit...he isn't even a good R&B Musician...even Stevie Wonder can out-R&B him (I'm listening to Fufillingness' First Finale right now)...

ZePbNFLPaiw

Far better and moral than Kanye West! And MTV helped during the 80's, but when The Real World came-out and Viacom got greedy...MTV killed Rock!

I think rock ended in 1996!

What's pic #1?



Madonna, of course, who became a star by taking advantage of music video with less emphasis on the music and more on the video! I regard her as instrumental in Kurt Cobain's death, because at the time she signed grunge-poseurs Candlebox, she appeared on David Letterman's show and spewed obscenities and refused to leave the set. It was March 31, 1994. Kurt Cobain must have been home watching this and decided that MTV pop was too daunting an enemy to fight, and so was driven over the edge and killed himself. Then the grunge movement collapsed. Madge - you're to blame for this!!!!!!!!

Madonna, of course, who became a star by taking advantage of music video with less emphasis on the music and more on the video! I regard her as instrumental in Kurt Cobain's death, because at the time she signed grunge-poseurs Candlebox, she appeared on David Letterman's show and spewed obscenities and refused to leave the set. It was March 31, 1994. Kurt Cobain must have been home watching this and decided that MTV pop was too daunting an enemy to fight, and so was driven over the edge and killed himself. Then the grunge movement collapsed. Madge - you're to blame for this!!!!!!!!

WOW! I heard that Madonna's kind of a *****, but I didn't realize it was in 1994 when she was like that!

Madonna was the artist that I loved to hate for 2000 because by then she got weird by practicing Judaism and British. I have nothing against the Jews, but Madonna became a wannabe...that and she released "American Pie"!

WOW! I heard that Madonna's kind of a *****, but I didn't realize it was in 1994 when she was like that!

Madonna was the artist that I loved to hate for 2000 because by then she got weird by practicing Judaism and British. I have nothing against the Jews, but Madonna became a wannabe...that and she released "American Pie"!

I don't think Madge forced Kurt to pull the trigger, but I can only wonder . . . he wasn't in the best frame of mind in early 1994, after all.

She covered "American Pie" in part to tweak and belittle the folk-rock/singer-songwriter-loving crowd who always detested her. As for Don McLean, he responded to that cover by saying, "I have received many gifts from God, but this is the first time I have ever received a gift from a goddess." What a diplomat he is.

I'm not going to diss all rap/hip-hop, especially the early-mid 80's stuff from Run-DMC and Salt-N-Pepa. They were making rap music you could actually dance to, weren't being vulgar, and did both social change and fun songs. One of my favorite old rap songs is "What People Do For Money" by Divine Sounds from 1984. The song has a strong message about how you can ruin your life when it's revolved around money. I also like Missy Elliott. Her stuff was original when it came out and still no one sounds like her.

I like a lot of EDM/dance artists. I still like Madonna and some songs off her new album are pretty strong. I like Lady Gaga. Beyond all the weirdness she can belt it out and I think her transition to jazz standards might mean even she's tired of the dance genre and those who mock her image.

But rap and hip-hop artists are not going to be the legends in the next decades like The Beatles, Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, etc. will be. People will still be listening to those rock bands after I'm gone. Kanye West, Nicki Minaj, and their ilk will only be blips on the radar and we'll have videos from armchair critics wondering why so many even liked all of that in the first place.

I have a feeling that rap is one day going to be replaced by a pop genre that hasn't even been invented yet.

Shawn Carter - you know, Beyonce's husband? - once told Pharrell Williams that hip-hop was becoming a cultural force in the late eighties, because "those 'hair bands' were too easy for us to take out." "Take out?" Like shooting targets? I hated the hair bands, but Mr. Carter seemed to be suggesting pleasure at the opportunity to attack rock and roll at its weakest, then bury it for good. But then just as hip-hop was about to rule the world, "grunge music stopped it for one second, ya know?" He said that when Nirvana came out, "it was like," 'We gotta wait awhile.'" Gee, Mr. Carter, I'm so f:censored:in' sorry Kurt Cobain so rudely interrupted your plan for world domination, but who cares when grunge died out and you got what you wanted, including a glamorous wife and a thriving hip-hop business, now you get to go all over the world with Beyonce while aspiring rockers who work at Wal-Mart and don't have girlfriends live in their parents' basements working for a record deal that they're never going to get because rock is supposedly "out." I feel like breaking out in song, the song being Family's "Drink To You," which opens with the lyric, "Sometimes I wanna blow my brains out when I think I'm getting near the end!"

It's funny, in early 1996, at the nadir of all things metal on the pop culture radar, I was really big into the hair bands. I think there was a point for a while with hair metal, and yeah, it became redundant. But the whole thing with rap/hip-hop, now that's redundant!!

I think Mr. Carter is a little too self-congratulatory in thinking that his drecky "music" is the measure by which all pop music must be measured. It would have been great if Kurt Cobain and so many other Seattle grunge bands didn't blow off the need to be, well, rock icons and act self-conscious. Because the whole music industry has conceded to that which is NOT music or melodic for its popularity and "world domination". puke:


I'm currently listening to "Metal Gods" by Judas Priest. :rock: :rock:

I have a feeling that rap is one day going to be replaced by a pop genre that hasn't even been invented yet.
Then let's invent it!!! :cool:

Funny how so often in the history of rock and roll, its death has been so prematurely predicted. ohno:

The British media personality Martin Lewis, at a Beatles convention in New Jersey, once made the case for Brian Epstein's induction into the Rock and Roll hall of Fame as a non-performer before Epstein was deservedly inducted. He played a make-believe game: Say you live in Boise, Idaho, working as the manager of the record department in a store run by your father. You discover a punk band in town and, while you may not be heavily into punk, you think they have something . . . so you become their manager. You go to New York and Los Angeles and try to get them a record deal at a time when labels are signing pop divas, "boy bands," and rappers and aren't interested in punk because it's "out." You insist your boys will be bigger than the Beatles. The A&R men in New York and LA look at you like you've lost your mind.

Substitute Liverpool for Boise, substitute the Beatles for this hypothetical punk band, substitute Helen Shapiro for Britney Spears or Frankie Avalon for Justin Timberlake, substitute novelty acts like the Hollywood Argyles for rappers - ;) - substitute rock being out for punk being out, substitute London for New York or LA, and say instead that the A&R men think you've lost your mind because you think the Beatles will be bigger than Elvis Presley. That's Brian Epstein's story. He came out of nowhere - Liverpool is a backwater like Boise - and gave us the band that rescued rock and roll.

This was back in 2001 when Martin Lewis said this. That story made me want to go to Idaho and discover the next Beatles! :)

If your name is Mindy, be careful. There could be a space alien in your attic.

No, that was Boulder, Colorado. :p

And the reason rock is declining is summed up here:

And the reason rock is declining is summed up here:
We're rolling back rock to 1975 prices!!! :rock: :rock:

I don't know what's going on here while listening to KNAC.com, but I'm hearing a little too much "electronic metal" here. Would rap-crap's influence have anything to do with this trend toward things being a little less organic in metal and rock?? :confused:

We're rolling back rock to 1975 prices!!! :rock: :rock:

Damn right! :rock:

Rap music doesn't suck and I should've known most of ya'll were gonna say it sucks because ya'll are white LOL. There has been more whites than blacks at rap concerts. So I know whites love rap. Plus I heard that whites buy rap cd's more than blacks which surprises me. 80's and 90's rappers are better than these new garbage rappers who have no lyrical skills. I miss the good rappers from back in the day like Run DMC(RIP Jam Master Jay), LL Cool J, Kurtis Blow, Whodini, Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five, Eric B and Rakim, Kool G Rap and DJ Polo, NWA(RIP Eazy E), EPMD, Mobb Deep, A Tribe Called Quest, Das EFX, Wu Tang Clan(RIP Old Dirty Bastard), Redman, Keith Murray, Jeru The Damaja, Gang Starr(RIP Guru), 2Pac(RIP), Notorious Big(RIP), Big L(RIP), Canibus, DMX, Masta Ace, Ice T, Onyx, MC Eiht, Jayo Felony and Above The Law(RIP KMG). Rappers back then had good lyrical skills and good beats. New wack rappers don't care about good lyrics and good beats. They only care about getting paid and being famous and that's why rap is gonna continue to suck for the next 30-40 years hahahahahahahahahahahahaha. I only listen to 80's and 90's rappers and I watch old rap videos on Youtube often.

I forgot to say I like KRS One, Brand Nubian and M.O.P.

Rap music doesn't suck and I should've known most of ya'll were gonna say it sucks because ya'll are white LOL. There has been more whites than blacks at rap concerts. So I know whites love rap. Plus I heard that whites buy rap cd's more than blacks which surprises me. 80's and 90's rappers are better than these new garbage rappers who have no lyrical skills. I miss the good rappers from back in the day like Run DMC(RIP Jam Master Jay), LL Cool J, Kurtis Blow, Whodini, Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five, Eric B and Rakim, Kool G Rap and DJ Polo, NWA(RIP Eazy E), EPMD, Mobb Deep, A Tribe Called Quest, Das EFX, Wu Tang Clan(RIP Old Dirty Bastard), Redman, Keith Murray, Jeru The Damaja, Gang Starr(RIP Guru), 2Pac(RIP), Notorious Big(RIP), Big L(RIP), Canibus, DMX, Masta Ace, Ice T, Onyx, MC Eiht, Jayo Felony and Above The Law(RIP KMG). Rappers back then had good lyrical skills and good beats. New wack rappers don't care about good lyrics and good beats. They only care about getting paid and being famous and that's why rap is gonna continue to suck for the next 30-40 years hahahahahahahahahahahahaha. I only listen to 80's and 90's rappers and I watch old rap videos on Youtube often.

Okay, so what about blacks who play rock? Excellent players like Tony McAlpine, Vernon Reid, and Rocky George?

Are they sellouts for playing "white people's music"?

Yeah, yeah, so rap is the greatest thing in the world since sliced Velveeta. Yes, everyone has got a right to like whatever music they want. But--

WHY IS RAP THE GREATEST FORM OF MUSIC IN THE KNOWN UNIVERSE AND THAT IT IS SO BLEEDINGLY AWESOME THAT IT BEATS ALL OTHER GENRES HANDS DOWN?? WHY DOES IT RULE OVER SOMETHING SO ORGANIC AND MELODIC AS ROCK AND ROLL??

Yeah, yeah, so rap is the greatest thing in the world since sliced Velveeta. Yes, everyone has got a right to like whatever music they want. But--

WHY IS RAP THE GREATEST FORM OF MUSIC IN THE KNOWN UNIVERSE AND THAT IT IS SO BLEEDINGLY AWESOME THAT IT BEATS ALL OTHER GENRES HANDS DOWN?? WHY DOES IT RULE OVER SOMETHING SO ORGANIC AND MELODIC AS ROCK AND ROLL??

Sorry, it's politically incorrect to ask those questions. :(

Okay, so what about blacks who play rock? Excellent players like Tony McAlpine, Vernon Reid, and Rocky George?

Are they sellouts for playing "white people's music"?

Rock is black music. Chuck Berry and Little Richard invented it.

And if rockism is racism, does that mean that Chuck and Richard hate . . . themselves?

Rock is black music. Chuck Berry and Little Ricahrd invented it.

And if rockism is racism, does that mean that Chuck and Richard hate . . . themselves?
Exactly. I hate it when I hear blacks say they "hate" rock and roll, because it's music they invented. There's only a weird perception that it's "all white".

Interestingly, Chuck Berry even considered becoming a country artist before he decided to play rock and roll.

Did you know that country is a form of the blues....which is black music? That means that blacks did in fact invent country!!

I'm currently listening to an 80's hair metal band called Little Caesar and their cover of Aretha Franklin's "Chain Of Fools".

Exactly. I hate it when I hear blacks say they "hate" rock and roll, because it's music they invented. There's only a weird perception that it's "all white".

Interestingly, Chuck Berry even considered becoming a country artist before he decided to play rock and roll.

Did you know that country is a form of the blues....which is black music? That means that blacks did in fact invent country!!

Don't forget Charley Pride! :D

Blacks invented the banjo as well. It's originally an African instrument. It became the linchpin of country . . . and of one of the British band Family's greatest songs.

And so, for Charlie Whitney of North Yorkshire, opportunity knocks! :)

N3j5Csks1MM

One thing to keep in mind: the study isn't saying that rap is more influential because it's around today and rock 'n roll isn't. It's calling the introduction of rap/hip hop influential because the change in Top 100 tunes (measured by some digital metrics) was sharper when rap came in than when the British Invasion started.

That's not real surprising considering that, for instance, the Beatles covered rhythm and blues artists wholesale, including Chuch Berry, Little Richard, and the Isley Brothers. The study starts in 1960 because the British academics involved seem to be interested in the British Invasion. If they had extended the study another decade, they might have found that the transition from the Mills Brothers to Chuck Berry was a much bigger turning point than the British Invasion.

Rock and roll is still around today, it just doesn't get enough airplay because rock radio stations are being pushed off the air and record compnaies aren't signing new rock acts. Those acts that do get signed don't get publicized much. Tame Impala would be a much bigger band if they could get a little attention from the media. But they have to compete with Mrs. West for the cover of Rolling Stone:

Don't forget Charley Pride! :D

Blacks invented the banjo as well. It's originally an African instrument. It became the linchpin of country . . . and of one of the British band Family's greatest songs.

And so, for Charlie Whitney of North Yorkshire, opportunity knocks! :)

N3j5Csks1MM
Oh, yes--Can't forget Charlie Pride!! :cool:

And yes, the banjo--and the guitar--were created in Africa. :guitar:

Rock and roll is still around today, it just doesn't get enough airplay because rock radio stations are being pushed off the air and record compnaies aren't singing new rock acts. Those acts that do get signed don't get publicized much. Tame Impala would be a much bigger band if they could get a little attention from the media. But they have to compete with Mrs. West for the cover of Rolling Stone:
No sooner did they have the awesome Rush on the cover than they put Kim K. and her rack on the magazine racks. :rolleyes:

No sooner did they have the awesome Rush on the cover than they put Kim K. and her rack on the magazine racks. :rolleyes:

The band Tame Impala amy have been reduced to a small-print mention on the cover, but Kim's bust is so noticeable that at least people immediately see that there's a Tame Impala story in side! :lol: :p

Nice picture of Kim Kardashian on the cover of Rolling Stone. I love her and I wish I could take her from Kanye West LOL. ABlairican Pie, I don't have a problem with blacks playing rock music. I'm just saying I think rap is better than rock and roll.

Nice picture of Kim Kardashian on the cover of Rolling Stone. I love her and I wish I could take her from Kanye West LOL. ABlairican Pie, I don't have a problem with blacks playing rock music. I'm just saying I think rap is better than rock and roll.

It's that last sentence we have trouble with.

Nice picture of Kim Kardashian on the cover of Rolling Stone. I love her and I wish I could take her from Kanye West LOL. ABlairican Pie, I don't have a problem with blacks playing rock music. I'm just saying I think rap is better than rock and roll.
DO EXPLAIN.

It's that last sentence we have trouble with.
:guitar: :guitar:

Of course ya'll are gonna have a problem with me thinking rap music is better than rock music because I'm black and ya'll are white hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Of course ya'll are gonna have a problem with me thinking rap music is better than rock music because I'm black and ya'll are white hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

But rock music is black music that white people like enough to play!

Of course ya'll are gonna have a problem with me thinking rap music is better than rock music because I'm black and ya'll are white hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
That's not it at all. Why is rap better than rock?

Regardless of the race or ethnicity of the speaker or the audience, why does rap have more legitimacy or quality over rock and roll?

But rock music is black music that white people like enough to play!
True. That was the whole thing about the British Invasion in the 1960's. White kids in England were doing their take on American black blues from the 1930's and 1940's--music that white kids in America knew nothing about.

True. That was the whole thing about the British Invasion in the 1960's. White kids in England were doing their take on American black blues from the 1930's and 1940's--music that white kids in America knew nothing about.

Muddy Waters once said that the few white Americans who did know about black blues bought the records but their parents destroyed them and wouldn't let them listen to the blues. All I can say is, Mike Bloomfield must have had very progressive parents!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Bloomfield

Muddy Waters once said that the few white Americans who did know about black blues bought the records but their parents destroyed them and wouldn't let them listen to the blues. All I can say is, Mike Bloomfield must have had very progressive parents!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Bloomfield
Those blues albums would probably be worth a fortune now!!

Those blues albums would probably be worth a fortune now!!

Bloomfield also said that when he arrived in the South Side of Chicago, he was immediately accepted by the bluesmen there because he knew how to play the blues.

White guys who like rap - bar the odd chap like Mr. Marshall Mathers - aren't welcome in places like East Orange, New Jersey, whose most famous rap trio Naughty by Nature famously declared, "If you're not from the ghetto, stay the f:censored: out of the ghetto!" Guess that means I stay in my suburban neighborhood and listen to Jeff Beck . . . and Beck. Hey, I know when I'm not wanted!

Bloomfield also said that when he arrived in the South Side of Chicago, he was immediately accepted by the bluesmen there because he knew how to play the blues.

White guys who like rap - bar the odd chap like Mr. Marshall Mathers - aren't welcome in places like East Orange, New Jersey, whose most famous rap trio Naughty by Nature famously declared, "If you're not from the ghetto, stay the f:censored: out of the ghetto!" Guess that means I stay in my suburban neighborhood and listen to Jeff Beck . . . and Beck. Hey, I know when I'm not wanted!
It's nice to know that rap and hip-hop are such universal forms of music. They speak to the, uhh, what do they speak to??--in all of us. :nod:

It's nice to know that rap and hip-hop are such universal forms of music. They speak to the, uhh, what do they speak to??--in all of us. :nod:

That's all they do, speak - with few exceptions, there's no singing! :p

That's all they do, speak - with few exceptions, there's no singing! :p
:nod:
Singing would probably scorch their vocal chords!!

"Kanye sang what?"

Have we noticed yet that a certain poster has NOT responded to our requests to explain how rap is exponentially better than rock and roll, or sliced Velveeta?
;)

Have we noticed yet that a certain poster has NOT responded to our requests to explain how rap is exponentially better than rock and roll, or sliced Velveeta?
;)

And while we're at it, I'd like to ask him if he thinks rap is is exponentially better than jazz. You remmber jazz . . . a major black musical form that mated ragtime and the blues with classical music, a form that some say takes at take more talent to play than rock and roll? See the movie Whiplash for further discussion. My man J.K. Simmons! :D

And while we're at it, I'd like to ask him if he thinks rap is is exponentially better than jazz. You remmber jazz . . . a major black musical form that mated ragtime and the blues with classical music, a form that some say takes at take more talent to play than rock and roll? See the movie Whiplash for further discussion. My man J.K. Simmons! :D
True, jazz is very complex musically--and noooooo, we're not talking about the instrumental fuzak in dentists' offices and elevators!! ;)

One of my earliest idols was Duke Ellington when I was a kid. I was up late to hear about his death on the 11:PM news in the summer of 1974.

Early on, I analyzed how music was composed and constructed. I listened to a number of jazz recordings on phonograph records. It was fascinating!

True, jazz is very complex musically--and noooooo, we're not talking about the instrumental fuzak in dentists' offices and elevators!! ;)

One of my earliest idols was Duke Ellington when I was a kid. I was up late to hear about his death on the 11:PM news in the summer of 1974.

Early on, I analyzed how music was composed and constructed. I listened to a number of jazz recordings on phonograph records. It was fascinating!

And then there are the jazz-rock-fusion guys, from Herbie Hancock and Miles Davis to Walter Becker and Donald Fagen of Steely Dan, who made some of the most essential albums in all of 1970s rock.

And then there are the jazz-rock-fusion guys, from Herbie Hancock and Miles Davis to Walter Becker and Donald Fagen of Steely Dan, who made some of the most essential albums in all of 1970s rock.
Oh, you can't forget Miles Davis. One of the most influential musicians of all time. I always liked "Rockit" by Herbie Hancock. Of course, Becker and Fagen are awesome. I grew up listening to them.

One of my favorite musicians of all time is bassist Stanley Clarke. :cool:

Sometimes I hear a LOT of jazz influences in metal. Such as Black Sabbath.

The Beatles said they were anti-jazz. Yeah, right - "Honey Pie"? :lol:

I'm still trying to figure out how rap's influence has somehow eclipsed that of The Beatles. Let's see:

People had, I don't know, how many social networking devices in 1964??
That may have been a factor.

I'm still trying to figure out how rap's influence has somehow eclipsed that of The Beatles. Let's see:

People had, I don't know, how many social networking devices in 1964??
That may have been a factor.

And they could only get six TV channels! :lol:

And they could only get six TV channels! :lol:

Yeah this whole thing is an unfair assessment. When you think about it, even with our limited media abilities back then , The Beatles were world famous and popular almost overnight. And the merchandising went crazy with Beatles" Everything; You name it"! I seriously doubt that "Rap" could ever have had such an explosion. It was "Beatlemania" after all! And manic it was! Yeah yeah yeah.................:eyes: :heart: :heart: :heart:

It takes a nation of millions of to hold Public Enemy back, but it took millions of rap groups to equal the influence of one rock and roll group from Liverpool, and I don't mean Gerry and the Pacemakers! :D :p

And they still couldn't do it.

There's supposed to be some new movie documentary about how rap and hip-hop allegedly conquered the known universe, but I think we all stand by the fact that NOTHING will ever replace the impact that The Beatles had on music and culture when they arrived here in 1964.

I get it (sort of) that as a cultural influence, rap and hip-hop were uhhh, okay, no I don't. Scratch that. There is nothing that will make us think of songs and anthems from that genre of "music", rap/hip-hop--like what happened on The Ed Sullivan Show that Sunday night in early February fifty-one years ago. "I Wanna Hold Your Hand", "She Loves You", quite a few. :cool:

I'm still looking at why The Beatles had the impact they had then on American youth. One reason was because the country needed to be picked up from the devastation it was experiencing after Kennedy's assassination.

I wonder what JFK would have thought about The Beatles?

There's supposed to be some new movie documentary about how rap and hip-hop allegedly conquered the known universe, but I think we all stand by the fact that NOTHING will ever replace the impact that The Beatles had on music and culture when they arrived here in 1964.

I get it (sort of) that as a cultural influence, rap and hip-hop were uhhh, okay, no I don't. Scratch that. There is nothing that will make us think of songs and anthems from that genre of "music", rap/hip-hop--like what happened on The Ed Sullivan Show that Sunday night in early February fifty-one years ago. "I Wanna Hold Your Hand", "She Loves You", quite a few. :cool:

I'm still looking at why The Beatles had the impact they had then on American youth. One reason was because the country needed to be picked up from the devastation it was experiencing after Kennedy's assassination.


I hate to bring this up, but it all comes down to race. Some black people dismiss rock and roll as black music played by white people. Consider Mos Def's "Rock N Roll," a put-down of white artists who co-opted black musical styles; he thinks whites stole it and tried to claim it as their own, although many of the white artists he mentions in his lyrics have always credited their sources.

Rap is the new rock and roll to rap stars, and they've made it clear that they take a dim view of whites becoming rappers while taking pleasure in white rock's obvious decline.

http://genius.com/Yasiin-bey-rock-n-roll-lyrics

I wonder what JFK would have thought about The Beatles?

We'll never know what JFK would have thought of the Beatles ()though he might have been aware of them, as they broke in England in 1963 and he was traveling through Europe earlier that year), but we know what LBJ thought of them. Hosting British Prime Minister Sir Alec Douglas-Home in Washington during the Beatles' appearance there in February 1964, President Johnson said to Sir Alec, "I like your advance guard. But don't you feel they need haircuts?" :lol:

We'll never know what JFK would have thought of the Beatles ()though he might have been aware of them, as they broke in England in 1963 and he was traveling through Europe earlier that year), but we know what LBJ thought of them. Hosting British Prime Minister Sir Alec Douglas-Home in Washington during the Beatles' appearance there in February 1964, President Johnson said to Sir Alec, "I like your advance guard. But don't you feel they need haircuts?" :lol:
That must have caught ol' LBJ for a surprise!

We know what Nixon felt about John Lennon, unfortunately... ohno:

That must have caught ol' LBJ for a surprise!

We know what Nixon felt about John Lennon, unfortunately... ohno:

And here's what Nixon thought about rap:

"I have often thought that if there had been a good rap group around in those days I might have chosen a career in music instead of politics."

:rofl:

Music is like candy, you throw the rappers away.

Music is like candy, you throw the rappers away.

Ha ha, good one! :lol:

Music is like candy, you throw the rappers away.
:rotflmao:

Just hit the nail on the head!!!

I thought it was really interesting how with many underground scenes in music, such as metal and punk, a subgenre would start out promising, such as with metal, we had Black Sabbath in 1970 give the music something dark and uncompromising. Fast forward to say, 1988, when Poison was at the top of the charts. Hair metal was in, false metal ruled the charts. Same thing with punk in 1977. The Sex Pistols so scandalized the charts that #1 was left blank when "God Save the Queen" was on top--but you couldn't acknowledge that on the charts. Fast forward to 1994 and 1999, when Green Day and Blink-182 were what most people considered pop-punk when those two bands topped the Billboard lists.

Metallica was a band who started out in the Bay Area thrash underground in the early 80's, but by the mid-90's, metal purists saw them as having sold out with "Enter Sandman" and the infamous "Load" album.

Oddly enough, I don't see rappers as seeing themselves as "selling out" as they top the charts. They start out small but when they become huge, it's not seen as a conflict of interests as one may expect in punk and metal.

Oddly enough, I don't see rappers as seeing themselves as "selling out" as they top the charts. They start out small but when they become huge, it's not seen as a conflict of interests as one may expect in punk and metal.

In a sense there is. Through the years Hip-Hop/Rap has had a huge underground scene and a much different sound and spirit than mainstream rap. I know the Black Eyed Peas for one have caught flack in some circles for selling out. Their first two albums were much more authentic than what came later on. Fergie joined the group for the third album and all of the sudden they had a totally different attitude, sound and audience. What's sad is that most Black Eyed Peas fans don't even know that their first two albums exist.

Rappers selling out was never seen as acceptable by anyone until the careers of MC Hammer and Vanilla Ice went down the toilet. They were really the first two rappers to sell out. They were widely criticized for it at the time, but now rappers selling out is pretty commonplace and acceptable to a lot of people.

I thought it was really interesting how with many underground scenes in music, such as metal and punk, a subgenre would start out promising, such as with metal, we had Black Sabbath in 1970 give the music something dark and uncompromising. Fast forward to say, 1988, when Poison was at the top of the charts. Hair metal was in, false metal ruled the charts. Same thing with punk in 1977. The Sex Pistols so scandalized the charts that #1 was left blank when "God Save the Queen" was on top--but you couldn't acknowledge that on the charts. Fast forward to 1994 and 1999, when Green Day and Blink-182 were what most people considered pop-punk when those two bands topped the Billboard lists.

Metallica was a band who started out in the Bay Area thrash underground in the early 80's, but by the mid-90's, metal purists saw them as having sold out with "Enter Sandman" and the infamous "Load" album.

Oddly enough, I don't see rappers as seeing themselves as "selling out" as they top the charts. They start out small but when they become huge, it's not seen as a conflict of interests as one may expect in punk and metal.

The Beatles started out small and became big, and they used their commercial success to push rock forward. Same thing with Bruce Springsteen, whose Born to Run album turns 40 today. Then in the 1980s, whenever a college band like U2 or R.E.M. broke through commercially, their fans were like, "Oh, no they're selling out!" Had it ever occurred to them that they were simply reaching larger audiences who wanted an alternative to the snyth-pop that 1980s popular music was becoming? What was the matter with these fans? They should have been pleased with the commercial breakthroughs of their favorite bands, and they acted like those insufferable folk purists who got upset when Dylan went electric. With that attitude, it was no wonder rap took over - especially when commercial success is what matters most to rappers, who are hard-nosed businessmen behind all those gold chains and backwards baseball caps. They knew how to sell their records and "take out" (as Jay-Z put it) rock bands, and they took advantage off the divide between college students who loved alt-rock bands before they were cool and the new fans these same bands picked up through pop radio. Hey, divide and conquer, right?

The Beatles started out small and became big, and they used their commercial success to push rock forward. Same thing with Bruce Springsteen, whose Born to Run album turns 40 today. Then in the 1980s, whenever a college band like U2 or R.E.M. broke through commercially, their fans were like, "Oh, no they're selling out!" Had it ever occurred to them that they were simply reaching larger audiences who wanted an alternative to the snyth-pop that 1980s popular music was becoming? What was the matter with these fans? They should have been pleased with the commercial breakthroughs of their favorite bands, and they acted like those insufferable folk purists who got upset when Dylan went electric. With that attitude, it was no wonder rap took over - especially when commercial success is what matters most to rappers, who are hard-nosed businessmen behind all those gold chains and backwards baseball caps. They knew how to sell their records and "take out" (as Jay-Z put it) rock bands, and they took advantage off the divide between college students who loved alt-rock bands before they were cool and the new fans these same bands picked up through pop radio. Hey, divide and conquer, right?
Hey wow--rap is all a MARKETING STRATEGY!!! :idea: It all makes sense now!!

It's why there's all the clothing with the dollar signs on them!

Hey wow--rap is all a MARKETING STRATEGY!!! :idea: It all makes sense now!!

It's why there's all the clothing with the dollar signs on them!

CNN is doing a "documentary on the rise of rap and hip-hop "fashion" as a money-making force. It airs on September 3. puke:

CNN is doing a "documentary on the rise of rap and hip-hop "fashion" as a money-making force. It airs on September 3. puke:
Wow, I could just pull my jeans down toward my kneecaps to show outsized boxers and make a cool million.


And be sure to get arrested by the fashion police--with no possibility of parole.

puke:

We need more people to speak out against rap and stop the madness. David Crosby and Michael McDonald need backup!

We need more people to speak out against rap and stop the madness. David Crosby and Michael McDonald need backup!

I'LL DEFINITELY SPEAK OUT AGAINST IT!!! :rock:

I'm really upset at the glorification of murder, mayhem, violence, and cultural darkness that has descended on us with rap. "It's reality", blah blah blah. Nothing redeeming about it. And too many kids take this crap wayyyyy too seriously. ohno:

And too many kids take this crap wayyyyy too seriously. ohno:

Not to mention music critics! puke:

Not to mention music critics! puke:
Yeah, what's the point of music critics fawning over stuff that's not even MUSIC??

Back in the day, music critics would take an artist's current work and compare it to the performer's musical forbears, put it against similar artists in the genre, and make comments about what the artist was trying to do or say, etc.
How does that work with rap? It's like this really bad cop show theme/incidental music pastiche with some angry guy yacking over it. The selling point is about "how angry he is, and how clever he can rhyme". Wow.
It's not like you can analyze guitar or melody or whatever in rap. Because there is none.

Yeah, what's the point of music critics fawning over stuff that's not even MUSIC??

Back in the day, music critics would take an artist's current work and compare it to the performer's musical forbears, put it against similar artists in the genre, and make comments about what the artist was trying to do or say, etc.
How does that work with rap? It's like this really bad cop show theme/incidental music pastiche with some angry guy yacking over it. The selling point is about "how angry he is, and how clever he can rhyme". Wow.
It's not like you can analyze guitar or melody or whatever in rap. Because there is none.

It's political correctness. They see rap as embracing the same outlaw spirit that rock and roll embraced in the 1950s and 1960s but no longer does because it's gotten older and more "serious."

It's also about celebrating a black musical form that most whites can't participate in. Black music is considered the taproot of all great American music; the critics keep insisting that all great white pop music is based on black music, and that white people have never developed a great musical form on their own, except classical music, which is elitist. Or something like that.

And, they trash aging rockers for bashing rap by saying that they subscribe to a new elitism, i.e., "rockism."

But mostly it's because of aging rock critics, with little rock to write about these days, wanting to keep their jobs and look cool.

It's political correctness. They see rap as embracing the same outlaw spirit that rock and roll embraced in the 1950s and 1960s but no longer does because it's gotten older and more "serious."

It's also about celebrating a black musical form that most whites can't participate in. Black music is considered the taproot of all great American music; the critics keep insisting that all great white pop music is based on black music, and that white people have never developed a great musical form on their own, except classical music, which is elitist. Or something like that.

And, they trash aging rockers for bashing rap by saying that they subscribe to a new elitism, i.e., "rockism."

But mostly it's because of aging rock critics, with little rock to write about these days, wanting to keep their jobs and look cool.
It's like they say, rock critics are people who couldn't play music in the first place.

As Frank Zappa said:

Writing about music is like dancing about architecture.

Of course, WE'RE writing about music. :lol: :crazy:

It's like they say, rock critics are people who couldn't play music in the first place.

As Frank Zappa said:

Writing about music is like dancing about architecture.

Of course, WE'RE writing about music. :lol: :crazy:

Actually, I think it was Elvis Costello who said that, but close enough. :lol: :) :wave:

Actually, I think it was Elvis Costello who said that, but close enough. :lol: :) :wave:
I've looked it up, and there seem to be a number of sources, in fact. One person said it was Martin Mull who may have said it.

I've looked it up, and there seem to be a number of sources, in fact. One person said it was Martin Mull who may have said it.

Seems plausible enough. He's a guitarist too! :lol:

Seems plausible enough. He's a guitarist too! :lol:
Yes, he was more than the gay guy on 'Rosanne' and the voice of Salem on the Melissa Joan Hart-version of 'Sabrina the Teenage Witch'!

Remember "Fernwood Tonight"? Fernwood 2 Night (or Fernwood Tonight) was a comedic television program that ran daily from July 1977 to September 1977. It was created by Norman Lear and produced by Alan Thicke as a spin-off/summer replacement from Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman. It was a parody talk show, hosted by Barth Gimble (Martin Mull) and sidekick/announcer Jerry Hubbard (Fred Willard), complete with a stage band, Happy Kyne and His Mirthmakers (featuring Frank De Vol as the ironically dour "Happy" Kyne, and Tommy Tedesco as one of the guitarists). Barth was purportedly the twin brother of Garth Gimble from Mary Hartman.

Imagine what Barth would have thought of hip-hop! :lol:

Remember "Fernwood Tonight"? Fernwood 2 Night (or Fernwood Tonight) was a comedic television program that ran daily from July 1977 to September 1977. It was created by Norman Lear and produced by Alan Thicke as a spin-off/summer replacement from Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman. It was a parody talk show, hosted by Barth Gimble (Martin Mull) and sidekick/announcer Jerry Hubbard (Fred Willard), complete with a stage band, Happy Kyne and His Mirthmakers (featuring Frank De Vol as the ironically dour "Happy" Kyne, and Tommy Tedesco as one of the guitarists). Barth was purportedly the twin brother of Garth Gimble from Mary Hartman.
I remember 'Fernwood Tonight'! That's where most of us got our first exposure to Martin Mull and Fred Willard.

Imagine what Barth would have thought of hip-hop! :lol:
Considering that show was on during the height of disco, I wouldn't be surprised if he thought that hip-hop was a step down. Or four. ;)

I watched Fernwood Tonight instead of Johnny Carson. That was back in the day when I could stay awake past 11:00! I liked it!:D

Considering that show was on during the height of disco, I wouldn't be surprised if he thought that hip-hop was a step down. Or four. ;)

:lol: :cool:

Read it and weep - and scream! This one's for you, Marlene! :eek2:

http://www.billboard.com/articles/news/6554067/raps-impact-outweighs-beatles-study


The impact of hip-hop's arrival on the pop music scene eclipsed that of the Beatles-led British invasion of 1964, a computer analysis of 17,000 songs has found.

The unusual study found three revolutions on the charts: the 1991 emergence of rap and hip-hop on mainstream charts; the synth-led new wave movement of 1983, and the advent of the Beatles, Rolling Stones, The Who and other British rockers in the early 1960s.

Although the Beatles -- paced by the songwriting of John Lennon and Paul McCartney -- enjoy perhaps the highest place in critics' esteem, the researchers found the hip-hop movement -- from pioneers like Afrika Bambaataa to megastars like Jay-Z -- more profound.

They wrote that the rise of rap and related genres represents "the single most important event that has shaped the musical structure of the American charts in the period we studied."

What they don't say is that the British invasion had a positive influence on society and rap has ruined society.

Because of liberal white guilt American society now worships an untalented ignorant group of low life violent savages that have remade America from the envy of the world to the laughing stock of the world.

P.S. I'm a liberal and I have my share of white guilt, but not where rap is concerned. Rappers drove my favorite rock stations off the air in New York and I'm supposed to take it???? :mad:

P.S. I'm a liberal and I have my share of white guilt, but not where rap is concerned. Rappers drove my favorite rock stations off the air in New York and I'm supposed to take it???? :mad:
We're not gonna take it!! NO!!! We're not gonna take it!!
WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE!!!!

:rock: :rock:

I'm don't feel guilty for being a white guy who hates rap. Nor for choosing not to vote for Kanye Worst in 2020!!! :D

We're not gonna take it!! NO!!! We're not gonna take it!!
WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE!!!!

:rock: :rock:

I'm don't feel guilty for being a white guy who hates rap. Nor for choosing not to vote for Kanye Worst in 2020!!! :D


Rock on forever!:guitar: :rock: :rock:

If Kanye West wins the White House in 2020, I'm leaving the U.S. I wish he would make good on his own threats to leave America!

We're not gonna take it!! NO!!! We're not gonna take it!!
WE'RE NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE!!!!

:rock: :rock:

I'm don't feel guilty for being a white guy who hates rap. Nor for choosing not to vote for Kanye Worst in 2020!!! :D

Of course, Greg, you remember that link to that column from the Guardian I posted earlier in which some clown argued that white rockers can't handle Kanye West because he's a black man taking rock and roll back from the white men who stole it . Kanye says rap is the new rock and roll. Maybe he has a point. Remember when Elvis Presley chided jazz fans in 1956 when he said, "Rock and roll is the new jazz. We're the new jazz cats, and I'm the hippest jazz cat of them all?" Oh, that's right, Elvis never said that! Hey, Kanye, listen to Corey Taylor and just stop it! Just . . . stop!

Of course, Greg, you remember that link to that column from the Guardian I posted earlier in which some clown argued that white rockers can't handle Kanye West because he's a black man taking rock and roll back from the white men who stole it . Kanye says rap is the new rock and roll. Maybe he has a point. Remember when Elvis Presley chided jazz fans in 1956 when he said, "Rock and roll is the new jazz. We're the new jazz cats, and I'm the hippest jazz cat of them all?" Oh, that's right, Elvis never said that! Hey, Kanye, listen to Corey Taylor and just stop it! Just . . . stop!
Is that Corey Taylor of Slipknot/Stone Sour fame?

There is just nothing rock and roll about rap! It's just pre-recorded bad cop show music with angry black guys talking over it!

Is that Corey Taylor of Slipknot/Stone Sour fame?

There is just nothing rock and roll about rap! It's just pre-recorded bad cop show music with angry black guys talking over it!

Yes, and when he was asked if he appreciated the attention that his remarks about West got, he said no, because, after all of his work in Slipknot and Stone Sour and other projects, Kanye-bashing is what he gets the most attention for? West's fans in the press interpreted that as the petulant attitude of an irrelevant white-boy rocker who can't get attention with his own work but does get attention for going after a rapper who matters culturally and musically. Of course.

I never liked Slipknot - they ripped off the masked-rocker act from Kiss, who ripped off Alice Cooper - but I understand Taylor's angst.