As most of you know years ago the owner of the board was asked by LE to stop the discussion of the two Mary Morris murders since it was an open case. I have asked the owner and he thinks since the request was several years ago it would be okay to open the discussion back up. We do want to put some limits though and the only discussion is to be on this thread (its just one case and there's no need for a bunch of threads to be started anyway) so any other threads on the case will be deleted or merged with this one. Also no attacking of family members as there was some done in the past on here from someone closely involved in the case. We don't need the drama and unwanted attention from the outside when we're just trying to discuss a UM case.

Okay as for my own thoughts on this case, I REALLY want to know what was said on the 911 tape. I think it would give us more clues on who may have been responsible. It was said in the segment hearing it would make your blood run cold so I really want to know what Mary said.

Thanks so much for bringing this one back, Crystaldawn!!!

This one has always been "special" to me as the murders took place less than 15 minutes from where I grew up and about 30 minutes from where I live today.

Let me start from the beginning on this. The segment would lead you to believe that Mary Henderson Morris was killed by accident by the person hired to kill Mary McGinnis Morris. I have no idea if this is true. The segment would also lead you to believe that the only suspects in this case are Mary McGinnis Morris co-worker and her husband, Mike Morris. I'd bet money that one of them are in some roundabout way responsible for this.

However, the phone call is what really "tells the tale" so to speak. Why would Mike Morris call his wife's phone and carry on a 4 minute long phone call with whoever was on the other end of that phone after his wife was dead? Mike has a clear alibi as he was at the movies with his daughter when the murder took place. The theory has been that he hired a hitman and the hitman got the wrong one the first time. On the surface, most people would buy that, however, unless you hire a completely inexperienced idiot, this doesn't make a lot of sense. When a hitman is retained, you give them the parameters of what you are looking to have done, when it needs to be done, how you would prefer it done, etc. You also provide a picture and a schedule of where the person can be so that the hitter doesn't go looking all over town. The two Mary's look nothing alike save the fact that both are Caucasian females. I just don't understand how a hitter does this.

But, on the other hand, Mary McGinnis Morris wedding ring was gone. Generally when a hitman is retained, you request some sort of proof that the deed is done. Her ring was gone, then a year or so later, it is revealed that her daughter, Katy, has the ring. I am in no way implicating or pointing the finger at Katy Morris (she could not have done it as she was with her father at the movies when it occurred). Just merely pointing out that she had her mother's ring after this incident.

The co-worker, who has visited this board numerous times, had quite a few restraining orders taken out on him by members of Mary's family. He would call, email and contact them against their wishes. He claimed he just wanted to clear his name and speak to them but they tell a very different story. Just go back and view the several different threads that he was involved in regarding this case. Mary's daughter Katy and her sister both get into it with him. He also mentions an America's Most Wanted episode that he takes offense to as he says they depict him saying and doing things he did not do. I never saw this episode of AMW. Did anyone here see it?

Mary's best friend, Laurie, was also featured on the broadcast and seemed distraught at the murder. She more or less pointed the finger at the co-worker (she also worked with both of them).

I believe Mike Morris was somehow involved in his wife's murder. Everything points to him hiring someone to kill his wife or having someone kill his wife. Also, Mary was killed with her own gun. It's almost as if her killer knew the gun was in the car and was told to kill her with it to make it look like a suicide. I'd be interested in finding out if large sums of money were ever withdrawn from Mike's account. Could be the payoff for a hit.

Here is a very good rundown of this case.... http://ididitforjodie.com/2013/08/04/mary-mary-not-so-contrary-the-laws-of-probability-and-the-murders-of-mary-morris/

Wow, today has been quite the day for me regarding this board. Three of the cases that always end up on my personal “top cases" list have seen some great discussion today. Thank you crystaldawn for reopening discussions on the Morris murders. Also thanks to Hambone for generating some interesting discussion on the Kerstetter and Flores cases. These three cases are among the ones I most closely follow.

I've also read the “jodie" profile on this case and found it to be very informative. I'll probably have to go back and read it again as it's been a while. I too wish that LE would release that 9-11 call. There seems to be some important evidence contained therein. I personally have a tendency to go back and forth on who I believe is responsible. For the longest time I felt that Mike Morris had his hand in the mix. Then I read the previous thread on this board. Reading some of the more “chaotic" posts made me question if perhaps certain parties were protesting too much. I'll leave that bit of business in the past where it belongs however.

I thought I read recently that LE no longer considers the two Morris cases to be related, which really surprised me. If my memory is correct, I have to wonder how LE arrived at that conclusion. Hopefully my fellow posters can weigh in here because I still believe these two cases are connected.

Will DEFINITELY be re-watching this one in light of the thread opening up.

I would also like to hear the 911 call. That's been a source of curiosity for quite some time now.

...and I think LE is crazy if they don't think the two crimes are connected. I would love to hear how that conclusion was reached as well...

I double checked just now to make sure I wasn't full of BS regarding my earlier statement. It seems that the current LE party line is indeed that there's no connection between the two cases.

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Two-Mary-Morris-slayings-remain-unsolved-1637059.php

I could be wrong but it is very possible that the two murders are not related. Houston is such a huge area and full of violent crime. Could UM have seeked this out to add to the mystique? With that said I agree they could be related too. I honestly have a lot more questions than ideas on this one. I think by the time I became a member here this discussion was off limits.

I'm glad this thread opened up. I realize this case is very controversial, so I'll try not to be very accusatory. The only thing I feel very strongly about with this case is that the crimes were related. I really don't see how they couldn't be connected.

Hambone, thank you for mentioning that the gun was Mary's. I had no idea. This tells me that the killer had to have known that the gun was there. Who would have known? Her husband, who could have told a hitman. I think that theory is probably the strongest. It is very suspicious to me that she was freaked out when she called her friend, and was so shaken that she was going to return home after turning off her computer at work...only to be abducted and murdered after stopping by to turn off the computer. Someone was likely waiting for her. And if it was a hitman, that would make perfect sense. He very well could have been the one in the story eying her and giving her the creeps.

Without causing too much debate (I know this is a touchy topic), the coworker angle is just too shrouded in mystery. We don't know anything about it beyond contention in the workplace and his own statements on the board. The husband angle seems much more plausible with the given information. A four minute phone call (with whom?), refusing to allow his daughter to be questioned...that doesn't look good. Sorry, a phone does not ring for four minutes without getting voicemail. Also, four minutes is actually quite a long time to listen to ringing. Wouldn't you just get frustrated and hang up? Especially if your wife hasn't been absent for very long at that point?

I don't pretend to be Cyril Wecht (well not often :p) but how can they not think they are related in some way.

What are the chances of this happening randomly? They must be out of this world figures!

You know, I used to believe in the theory that Mike Morris hired a hitman who accidentally killed the wrong woman, but the more I think about it, his four-minute call to Mary's cell phone almost ranks in the "too stupid to be true" category. If Mike was communicating with the person who killed his wife, why speak with them on Mary's cell phone? Did the killer not have another phone they could use? Surely, Mike and the killer would have known that phone records would be checked and that it would look incredibly suspicious if there was a record of them speaking on Mary's phone for four full minutes after she was murdered. But of course, if this was a hitman who accidentally killed the wrong woman, I wouldn't put it past them to make such a stupid mistake.

Wow, today has been quite the day for me regarding this board.

It was certainly the most active day on the forum I can ever recall.

You know, I used to believe in the theory that Mike Morris hired a hitman who accidentally killed the wrong woman, but the more I think about it, his four-minute call to Mary's cell phone almost ranks in the "too stupid to be true" category. If Mike was communicating with the person who killed his wife, why speak with them on Mary's cell phone? Did the killer not have another phone they could use? Surely, Mike and the killer would have known that phone records would be checked and that it would look incredibly suspicious if there was a record of them speaking on Mary's phone for four full minutes after she was murdered. But of course, if this was a hitman who accidentally killed the wrong woman, I wouldn't put it past them to make such a stupid mistake.

Let's not forget that this murder occurred in 2000. That was right around the time when everyone started carrying a cell phone. I don't think it would have been common knowledge back then to assume phone records and cell phone towers were going to be checked. Plus, let's assume Mike did hire the hitman and told him about the gun in Mary's car, which was used to murder her. Prior to the gunshot, she was gagged and beaten pretty severely. Was this part of the plan? Was it part of the plan to murder her in broad daylight right off of 290 and West Little York (for those non Houstonians, 290 is constantly busy as is every sub street off of it). If it truly was a hit, I believe things were derailed a bit. I doubt the plan was to murder her in her car, in broad daylight. Plus, something happened that enabled her to be able to call 911. A car is a small place. I'm guessing she was able to get inside her car and lock the doors in enough time to call the police.

Also, Laurie Gemmel mentioned that while she was on the phone with Mary, Mary said she spotted someone who was giving her the creeps. She said the person giving her the creeps was a friend of the co-workers that he had brought to a Christmas party a year or so prior to this. Could he have somehow been involved unbeknownst to the co-worker?

Robin, I do agree with you that if you act under the assumption that the hitman got it wrong the first time, you have to throw everything that makes sense out the window, including a completed four minute phone call.

Hambone, thank you for mentioning that the gun was Mary's. I had no idea. This tells me that the killer had to have known that the gun was there. Who would have known? Her husband, who could have told a hitman. I think that theory is probably the strongest. It is very suspicious to me that she was freaked out when she called her friend, and was so shaken that she was going to return home after turning off her computer at work...only to be abducted and murdered after stopping by to turn off the computer. Someone was likely waiting for her. And if it was a hitman, that would make perfect sense. He very well

This is why in my prior post, I mentioned how things were derailed. My theory is that if Mike hired a hitman, he asked the hitter to make it look like a suicide but all hell broke lose and a fight ensued. It may have been someone Mary knew and tried to speak with her to get her to let her guard down but to no avail. We know Mary was gagged and beaten severely before finally being shot in the head with her own gun. If they truly fought, I also have to assume that some sort of blood, fiber or DNA of the killer may have been under Mary's fingernails or strewn about somewhere in that vehicle. If that was the case and it was checked, clearly the killer was not in the system.

Let's not forget that this murder occurred in 2000. That was right around the time when everyone started carrying a cell phone. I don't think it would have been common knowledge back then to assume phone records and cell phone towers were going to be checked. Plus, let's assume Mike did hire the hitman and told him about the gun in Mary's car, which was used to murder her. Prior to the gunshot, she was gagged and beaten pretty severely. Was this part of the plan? Was it part of the plan to murder her in broad daylight right off of 290 and West Little York (for those non Houstonians, 290 is constantly busy as is every sub street off of it). If it truly was a hit, I believe things were derailed a bit. I doubt the plan was to murder her in her car, in broad daylight. Plus, something happened that enabled her to be able to call 911. A car is a small place. I'm guessing she was able to get inside her car and lock the doors in enough time to call the police.

I don't know, even before cell phones were a thing, I figured it was common knowledge that whenever you made a telephone call of any sort, there would be a record of it. But you know, the more I think about it, maybe that phone call to Mary's cell phone was always part of the original plan.

It's been theorized that the original intention was to stage the scene to make it look like Mary committed suicide. If a hitman really did kill the wrong Mary Morris by mistake, it would be in Mike's best interest to make his wife's death look like a suicide, so that the two crimes don't look related. Maybe Mike was planning to fabricate a story to police about calling Mary and hearing her say she planned to kill herself. He believed that phone records would back up his story, but the problem is that Mary wound up making a frantic call to 911 BEFORE Mike phoned her. Because of this, Mike knows the suicide story won't hold up and now has to explain the call by improvising an unbelievable story about the phone ringing for four straight minutes.

It's been theorized that the original intention was to stage the scene to make it look like Mary committed suicide. If a hitman really did kill the wrong Mary Morris by mistake, it would be in Mike's best interest to make his wife's death look like a suicide, so that the two crimes don't look related. Maybe Mike was planning to fabricate a story to police about calling Mary and hearing her say she planned to kill herself. He believed that phone records would back up his story, but the problem is that Mary wound up making a frantic call to 911 BEFORE Mike phoned her. Because of this, Mike knows the suicide story won't hold up and now has to explain the call by improvising an unbelievable story about the phone ringing for four straight minutes.

Could be. Also the fact that she was beaten and gagged. I don't believe that was part of the original plan either. I do believe that if the hitter did get the wrong Mary the first time, that it was supposed to look like a suicide the second time, but the 911 call and the beaten show that it did not go as planned.

I wonder what prompted her to call 911? On the surface you wouldn't really think about it, but obviously something happened. Was she approached? Attacked? Ran off the road? I just wonder what it was that caused her to make the 911 call and how she was able to do so when she was trapped in an enclosed space (vehicle) with the killer still trying to get in and kill her.

I don't know, even before cell phones were a thing, I figured it was common knowledge that whenever you made a telephone call of any sort, there would be a record of it. But you know, the more I think about it, maybe that phone call to Mary's cell phone was always part of the original plan.

It's been theorized that the original intention was to stage the scene to make it look like Mary committed suicide. If a hitman really did kill the wrong Mary Morris by mistake, it would be in Mike's best interest to make his wife's death look like a suicide, so that the two crimes don't look related. Maybe Mike was planning to fabricate a story to police about calling Mary and hearing her say she planned to kill herself. He believed that phone records would back up his story, but the problem is that Mary wound up making a frantic call to 911 BEFORE Mike phoned her. Because of this, Mike knows the suicide story won't hold up and now has to explain the call by improvising an unbelievable story about the phone ringing for four straight minutes.

I think you alluded to this earlier, but I just wonder if the whole phone call was ineptitude on the part of Mike and the killer as well. I mean, if we believe the hired hit scenario, the killer was obviously inept enough to fudge the situation by murdering the wrong Mary Morris from the start. The phone call could be more evidence of this disorganization.

Glad this is back. I watched it a few months ago. If the husband did it...or even a co worker, how did they get the wrong Mary?? Not like they were neighbors. To me you give a picture to the hitman and say, "Hey, taking the kids to a movie, she will be here, in this car..." and such and such.

I can tell a lot of people have been itching to discuss this case.

Understandable though.

One of those cases that has so many suspects...yet so little answers. I always wondered if Mike and the co worker weren't in cahoots. Lord knows. I personally believe both Mary's are connected. Some say no...the creepy phone indicating that they had the wrong Mary and then 3 days later they got the "right" one tells me that is connected...I dunno.

I think you alluded to this earlier, but I just wonder if the whole phone call was ineptitude on the part of Mike and the killer as well. I mean, if we believe the hired hit scenario, the killer was obviously inept enough to fudge the situation by murdering the wrong Mary Morris from the start. The phone call could be more evidence of this disorganization.

If its really as simple as an obvious contract killing gone awry, spearheaded by Mike Morris, I wonder why they haven't charged him with anything. Seems like there have been numerous other cases with a ton of circumstantial evidence of a lot less where arrests and convictions were made.

Glad this is back. I watched it a few months ago. If the husband did it...or even a co worker, how did they get the wrong Mary?? Not like they were neighbors. To me you give a picture to the hitman and say, "Hey, taking the kids to a movie, she will be here, in this car..." and such and such.

Yep, exactly. Click on the link I posted on my original post to this thread. In it, you'll see where the first Mary Morris' husband received tons of random calls from people asking for Mary. Her purse was later found in Galveston along with a calling card that was used after her death. None of this was mentioned in the segment. You have to wonder, if the first Mary Morris was a mistake hit, why are they still harassing her husband after got the right one less than a week later?

Does anyone know where Mike Morris was the day of the first Mary murder?

That might lead to something that would either clear him or convict him.

EDIT

What I mean is if he was off doing something that would give him a SOLID ALIBI that might lead more creditability to the hit theory.

Does anyone know where Mike Morris was the day of the first Mary murder?

That might lead to something that would either clear him or convict him.

EDIT

What I mean is if he was off doing something that would give him a SOLID ALIBI that might lead more creditability to the hit theory.

I don't think it has ever been asked or discussed, mainly because Mike Morris lawyered up and has yet to speak with detectives.

Mike Morris is guilty as sin, IMO.

I haven't seen the segment in years, but unless UM left a ton of information out (which they have been prone to do), the first Mary Morris murder makes absolutely no sense. There was no evidence of anyone who had bad blood towards the first Mary Morris, nor was there anyone with a motive to want her dead. I can't not believe that these two murders were connected. They had to be. The biggest piece of evidence in this case was the phone call Mike Morris placed to his wife's cell phone which lasted 4 total minutes. The phone doesn't ring for 4 minutes non stop, and even if someone didn't have a voicemail set up, there's simply no way someone would have sat on the line that long to let it keep ringing. He was calling Mary's killer to make sure he/she/they got the right Mary Morris, IMO.

True, when I was 13ish, I called a friend and let it ring forever...at the 30th or so the operator came on and said to try again later. Thought it was funny and she did the same to me and after the 30th, like me, she was cut off.

I'm glad we can discuss this one again. I lived in the area where it happened when it happened. Still creeps me out.

Mike Morris is guilty as sin, IMO.

I haven't seen the segment in years, but unless UM left a ton of information out (which they have been prone to do), the first Mary Morris murder makes absolutely no sense. There was no evidence of anyone who had bad blood towards the first Mary Morris, nor was there anyone with a motive to want her dead. I can't not believe that these two murders were connected. They had to be. The biggest piece of evidence in this case was the phone call Mike Morris placed to his wife's cell phone which lasted 4 total minutes. The phone doesn't ring for 4 minutes non stop, and even if someone didn't have a voicemail set up, there's simply no way someone would have sat on the line that long to let it keep ringing. He was calling Mary's killer to make sure he/she/they got the right Mary Morris, IMO.

I agree with this. Plus he has lawyered up and refused to speak with police. Now, simply retaining an attorney does not mean you're guilty, but many times, those who retain an attorney, do go and speak with law enforcement with the attorney present. Mike has not done that. Seems like he would want his wife's murderer found and would do anything the police wanted. I just wonder what was so bad in their marriage that caused him to hire a hitman?

If its really as simple as an obvious contract killing gone awry, spearheaded by Mike Morris, I wonder why they haven't charged him with anything. Seems like there have been numerous other cases with a ton of circumstantial evidence of a lot less where arrests and convictions were made.

My best guess is that it's still not enough. I mean, I thought the segment suggested that the police did not think the two killings were connected. Some posters here have pointed out scenarios in which the four minutes of ringing can be innocently explained. Also, I'm not sure what evidence there is of motive. Even though my gut says Mike did it, I still think the evidence is too thin to risk charging him given what we know.

Not to mention there are a lot of unknown variables in this case. Namely the contents of the 911 call and whatever evidence the police claim to have against the co-worker.

My best guess is that it's still not enough. I mean, I thought the segment suggested that the police did not think the two killings were connected. Some posters here have pointed out scenarios in which the four minutes of ringing can be innocently explained. Also, I'm not sure what evidence there is of motive. Even though my gut says Mike did it, I still think the evidence is too thin to risk charging him given what we know.

Not to mention there are a lot of unknown variables in this case. Namely the contents of the 911 call and whatever evidence the police claim to have against the co-worker.

Definitely true of the variables. There is clearly some evidence that has not been made public that police believe may be the key to everything. After 15 years and a two sets of new detectives assigned, you have to wonder if this will ever be solved.

Would there have been a way back in 2000 for the cell carrier to determine if that four minute phone call actually connected? It seems that there should have been some way to differentiate between a call that wasn't answered and one that was.

Would there have been a way back in 2000 for the cell carrier to determine if that four minute phone call actually connected? It seems that there should have been some way to differentiate between a call that wasn't answered and one that was.

Yes. In the segment, Detective Wayne Kuhlman states that the cell phone carrier advised him that it was a completed call.

I'm curious to know why police, at least in the UM segment, didn't seem to think the two murders were connected. Especially considering the first Mary Morris had her wedding ring missing from her. You don't go through great lengths to torch the car, destroy evidence, etc. just for a robbery turned murder. I don't doubt for a second that these two murders were connected.

I found an interesting article about the murders on another website, and it has this interesting tidbit:

"The noose of suspicion around Mike Morris’s neck appeared to tighten: the sole item determined to be missing from the McGinnis Morris crime scene was a single piece of jewelry—a ring McGinnis Morris was known to habitually wear; months later, however, a friend spotted Mike Morris’s daughter from a previous relationship wearing this very same ring. When confronted with this damning discrepancy Mike claimed he’d found the ring at home after his wife’s murder and had simply forgotten to inform detectives of this fact; a strange oversight, to put it mildly."

http://ididitforjodie.com/2013/08/04/mary-mary-not-so-contrary-the-laws-of-probability-and-the-murders-of-mary-morris/

I'm curious to know why police, at least in the UM segment, didn't seem to think the two murders were connected. Especially considering the first Mary Morris had her wedding ring missing from her. You don't go through great lengths to torch the car, destroy evidence, etc. just for a robbery turned murder. I don't doubt for a second that these two murders were connected.

I found an interesting article about the murders on another website, and it has this interesting tidbit:

"The noose of suspicion around Mike Morris’s neck appeared to tighten: the sole item determined to be missing from the McGinnis Morris crime scene was a single piece of jewelry—a ring McGinnis Morris was known to habitually wear; months later, however, a friend spotted Mike Morris’s daughter from a previous relationship wearing this very same ring. When confronted with this damning discrepancy Mike claimed he’d found the ring at home after his wife’s murder and had simply forgotten to inform detectives of this fact; a strange oversight, to put it mildly."

http://ididitforjodie.com/2013/08/04/mary-mary-not-so-contrary-the-laws-of-probability-and-the-murders-of-mary-morris/

Yea, that article has a ton of information, but the "noose" never "tightened" around Mike Morris. Maybe in the court of public opinion, but not in reality. Here we are, fifteen years later and he hasn't even been interviewed with his attorney. He has also moved to West Virginia. The whole case is odd.

Plus, if we are to believe the bungled hitman theory, then not onl was the hitman an idiot for hitting the wrong target, but he is also a genius for never being caught!

I cant say for sure if both Mary murders are related (although it appears that way) however, I am willing to bet that Mike Morris is responsible for his wifes death. First off, he had much more motive than the eccentric ex coworker. The HUGE insurance policy, a bad marriage, infidelity allegations, ect. Second, who calls their wife and lets it ring for an entire four minutes?!

It wasn't like she had been missing for days or weeks, it was the afternoon she was murdered. So, his wife isn't at home at the exact time he expected her to be which could be due to a number of things (got caught up at the clinic with work, got talking with her girlfriend, her errands took a little longer than anticipated ect), so he calls his wife and lets it ring for an entire four minutes? That is an absurdly long time especially given that she wasn't even missing at this point. Obviously, this is if you believe Mikes version.

It is impossible that it just rang for four minutes. It was a completed call. There just no way it wasn't. I remember years ago asking a friend of mine who worked as a tech for Verizon if he thought it was possible and he said no, it wasn't possible. It was a completed call. I also think the detectives working on this case investigated and interviewed specialists in this area to determine as well that it very well was a completed call.

Mike wasn't a professional criminal and after all it was 2000 and so much less was known about cell phones by the general public. I cant tell you how many husbands have ended up getting caught because of dumb mistakes they made during or after the crime.

Also remember, that Mike Morris probably had no clue Mary had called 911 when he made that call to her cell phone. The 911 tape is what told detectives the exact time she was brutally attacked and murdered. If it wasn't for the 911 call, detectives would've had to estimate time of death based on the last she was heard from and the decomposition of the body. This usually is a few hour window. So again, Mike probably figured calling her cell phone was a smarter way to communicate with the attacker as opposed to calling the attackers cell phone and having a strange number appear on his phone bill (which could be traced back to the source). IMO, he originally planned to tell detectives that he briefly checked in with his wife which is routine and normal. It wasn't until he realized there was an actual 911 tape that had the exact time of the attack that he had to change his story and hope they couldn't prove it was a completed call.

The ring that his daughter from a previous marriage was found wearing months after the murder is also very suspicious. Obviously, if you live with someone for years and they wear that piece of jewelry daily, most would immediately notice. The fact Mary's step daughter was found wearing it is just plain creepy.

Either way, I believe the person who killed Mary was hired or did so on behalf of someone else. IMO, it was Mike Morris. I just believe until they find the person who actually did this they cant prove beyond any reasonable doubt who killed her. There is plenty of circumstantial evidence against Mike but they haven't been able to connect any of the dots. They DA will only get one chance. Plus, if they officially cant eliminate the ex coworker a defense attorney would have a field day with that one.

To sum it up, I think Mike had his wife killed. It is possible that the attacker accidently killed the first mary. Maybe that's why Mike wanted to call her cell phone to verify it was done this time? Again, I cant be sure they are but I am quite confident Mike Morris had his wife killed.

Either way, I believe the person who killed Mary was hired or did so on behalf of someone else. IMO, it was Mike Morris. I just believe until they find the person who actually did this they cant prove beyond any reasonable doubt who killed her. There is plenty of circumstantial evidence against Mike but they haven't been able to connect any of the dots. They DA will only get one chance. Plus, if they officially cant eliminate the ex coworker a defense attorney would have a field day with that one.

To sum it up, I think Mike had his wife killed. It is possible that the attacker accidently killed the first mary. Maybe that's why Mike wanted to call her cell phone to verify it was done this time? Again, I cant be sure they are but I am quite confident Mike Morris had his wife killed.

You know how Mary's friend, Laurie, said that when she was speaking to Mary 20 minutes before her murder, Mary mentions that someone was giving her the creeps and believed it to be a friend of the co-worker that he had brought to a company function a year or so prior? I've often wondered if the co-workers friend was in some way contracted by Mike Morris to do this? But, it doesn't explain him getting the wrong one the first time. Unless of course, the first Mary Morris was murdered on purpose to confuse the police.

The detective interviewed on UM states that the 911 call came in during her attack and murder and that it lasted for 12 minutes. It's possible that sometime during that 911 call, she told dispatch who was trying to harm her (if she knew the guy). I find it hard to believe that she could have possibly named an acquaintance/friend of the coworker being the one who gave her the "creeps", yet the police never could tie anything on the coworker.

I guess it's possible that one of the two suspects in the Mary McGinnis murder (Mike Morris or the coworker) used the first Mary Morris' death as a way to set up a botched hit, but this would seem extremely unlikely. Both women were murdered 3 days apart from one another. That would take some quick thinking, not to mention finding someone willing to murder the 2nd Mary in that small time frame.

I just thought of another "off the wall" theory. Maybe whoever wanted Mary McGinnis dead had planned on killing another Mary Morris all along to throw off investigators? It's obviously worked thus far. Perhaps they figured there would be a viable suspect in the first Mary Morris murder (even though as it turns out, there wasn't, but they would have no way of knowing this) who would then be pinned as the murderer of the 2nd Mary? I can kind of see where investigators are coming from, because both crime scenes were completely different. The first Mary's murder was done in a way that whoever killed her wanted no trace evidence left behind. The 2nd Mary's murder was set up to look like a suicide, despite evidence to the contrary. IIRC, her passenger door was left wide open and her keys were tossed alongside the car.

I still believe that the first Mary was killed by mistake, her killer called whoever had hired him to do it, found out that he got the wrong Mary Morris and torched her car and her body inside. They then went and got the "right" Mary Morris the 2nd time.

I wonder what the point of the phone call to the Houston Chronicle was, that said "They got the wrong Mary Morris"? The next day was when the second Mary Morris was murdered. But what was the point of that call? Why would the killer want to help police out? It makes me wonder if there were more people involved in this and one decided to call the papers.

What would have happened if the papers told the police who immediately ran a news report about it? It could completely screw up the second Mary Morris' murder attempt. Seems very unlikely that the killer would have been the one to make that call.

The detective interviewed on UM states that the 911 call came in during her attack and murder and that it lasted for 12 minutes. It's possible that sometime during that 911 call, she told dispatch who was trying to harm her (if she knew the guy).


I must have missed the part that said it was 12 minutes long. I do agree that if she did say who it was, that police would have certainly made an arrest by now.

Seems odd that a fight taking place solely inside of a car could go on for 12 minutes when there's a gun involved.

I wonder what the point of the phone call to the Houston Chronicle was, that said "They got the wrong Mary Morris"? The next day was when the second Mary Morris was murdered. But what was the point of that call? Why would the killer want to help police out? It makes me wonder if there were more people involved in this and one decided to call the papers.

What would have happened if the papers told the police who immediately ran a news report about it? It could completely screw up the second Mary Morris' murder attempt. Seems very unlikely that the killer would have been the one to make that call.

I'm glad you brought this up, because I just thought of something:

The police don't seem convinced that this was a mistaken hit. They seem to believe that if you hire someone to kill someone, you're going to make sure that they get the right person the first time.

But I can envision a scenario where whoever wanted Mary McGinnis dead, had talked to a "middle man" about getting someone to kill her for money. This "middle man" was the one communicating to the actual hitman, and not the one who did the actual hiring. This could be why the first Mary Morris was killed by mistake. Someone could have relayed the wrong information, or this person could have looked up Mary Morris in the phone book and got the wrong one that way (IIRC, they lived close to one another). I also think this may be why the two crime scenes are completely different. Out of fear that they didn't want police to think they were connected, they made a crude attempt to stage Mary McGinnis's murder as a suicide, and didn't torch the car. Just a way to throw off the investigators.

I'm glad you brought this up, because I just thought of something:

The police don't seem convinced that this was a mistaken hit. They seem to believe that if you hire someone to kill someone, you're going to make sure that they get the right person the first time.

But I can envision a scenario where whoever wanted Mary McGinnis dead, had talked to a "middle man" about getting someone to kill her for money. This "middle man" was the one communicating to the actual hitman, and not the one who did the actual hiring. This could be why the first Mary Morris was killed by mistake. Someone could have relayed the wrong information, or this person could have looked up Mary Morris in the phone book and got the wrong one that way (IIRC, they lived close to one another). I also think this may be why the two crime scenes are completely different. Out of fear that they didn't want police to think they were connected, they made a crude attempt to stage Mary McGinnis's murder as a suicide, and didn't torch the car. Just a way to throw off the investigators.

They didn't live that close to one another. Mary McGinnis Morris lived in Sugarland which is a suburb about 15 minutes southwest of Houston. The other Mary Morris lived on the complete opposite side of Houston. They lived about 30-45 minutes from each other.

I wonder if their vehicles are the same or, roughly the same? Surely if this was a hit, more information was given about the target than just her name.

I do agree that the murder scenes were different on purpose. I know the first Mary Morris has her car torched, but was she shot in the head? Absent the fire, was it ever stated if police were able to ascertain if hers was meant to look like a suicide as well? The killer may have attempted to make her death look like a suicide, then called Mike Morris to tell him it was done and that's when they figured out it was the wrong Mary Morris and that he needed to destroy the crime scene because he still has to kill the correct Mary Morris the way they planned.

Speaking of that, I wonder if there were any phone calls made or received by Mike Morris around the same time as the first Mary Morris' murder?

If the 911 call was 12 mins long, she could've dropped the phone at some point but the line was still open and the attacker didn't notice right away. That's happened on a few cases in which the perp didn't notice the victim had dialed 911 and the line was open so the dispatcher could hear everything.

If the 911 call was 12 mins long, she could've dropped the phone at some point but the line was still open and the attacker didn't notice right away. That's happened on a few cases in which the perp didn't notice the victim had dialed 911 and the line was open so the dispatcher could hear everything.

If that's the case, then we have to assume the killers voice is on the tape. I highly doubt he didn't say a word to her while attacking, struggling and murdering her.

Ok so apparently, I was wrong and the call was made 12 minutes after she called her friend to tell her someone had creeped her out. The police do not specify how long the call was, but they do say it was happening as she was being abducted and attacked.

I'm really unsure if the murders are related. I'd like to know more houston details that weren't featured on UM. Why would law enforcement say that they are not related other than to hide details? Aside from that houston is a violent city where random acts of violence occur daily. It could be reality that these cases are unrelated.

Ok so apparently, I was wrong and the call was made 12 minutes after she called her friend to tell her someone had creeped her out. The police do not specify how long the call was, but they do say it was happening as she was being abducted and attacked.

Which is probably why they say it's bone-chilling and wasn't released to the general public. :eek: :eek:

I totally agree with Krissy's comments above re: the 4 minute ringing cell phone. No way is that the result of a "butt dial," so to speak. I've done that in the past (called someone by bumping the phone in my pocket) and the calls usually terminate themselves after a minute or so. There's no 4 minutes of recording dead air. I agree that it was a completed call.

Has this case been reaired on the Lifetime segments? I've yet to see it again (I'm sure I've seen it before but it has been so long ago). I'd like to see it again to refresh my memory of the case.

Which is probably why they say it's bone-chilling and wasn't released to the general public. :eek: :eek:

I totally agree with Krissy's comments above re: the 4 minute ringing cell phone. No way is that the result of a "butt dial," so to speak. I've done that in the past (called someone by bumping the phone in my pocket) and the calls usually terminate themselves after a minute or so. There's no 4 minutes of recording dead air. I agree that it was a completed call.

100% right. The phone company verified that this was a "completed" call, meaning whoever Morris called on his wife's cell phone answered the call. And this was 2 hours after she placed the 911 call. And this makes Mike Morris, and not the coworker, look more guilty.

For one, unless he was following her, how would the coworker know what Mary was doing that Sunday? According to her friends, she was running errands and doing some work at her office that day. And what a coincidence that Mike Morris conveniently is out at the movies with his daughter during that time period. I realize that this could just be a weird coincidence, but that coupled with the 4 minute phone call is enough to make him the #1 suspect, IMO. Mike Morris would know the precise details of what and where Mary was going that day.

Something interesting I've noticed: in one of the closed Mary Morris threads, among other blogs and message boards on the net, the coworker has continually denied the banging on the windows and threatening Mary on the day he quit from his job. He's adamantly denied it, and said that there were witnesses from the workplace who would say that that incident never happened. Curiously, on the Bizarre Murder DVD, this little part of the segment is missing. I know for certain there was a scene showing the coworker creepily standing in front of windows banging on them, but it was removed from the DVD. I wonder if he contacted them with information or proof that it didn't happen and they removed it from the segment.

Is it just me or does it seem like the “incompetent hitman" theory is becoming more and more popular lately? Seems like the Emert case, the Flores case, and this case all share that theory. It's almost becoming the UM catch-all.

The cell phone call is damning. Obviously not enough for a jury trial but he's as guilty as sin. Even by his own account, why would he let it ring for 4 minutes (if it was possible which it isn't), if his wife was only late coming home? Why would he be that desperate to reach her? It was the same afternoon. However, it's not possible and someone was on the other line. He can deny it but it was and can be proven it was a completed call. Only because of the 911 call do we know the exact time of the attack/murder.

Also, in the 15 years since Mike Morris never has called the detectives working the case to see how it was going. He doesn't once check in to see if any justice will be served to the person who murdered his daughter's mother? His wife whom he claims they had worked out their differences and no affair had actually happened. He lawyers up immediately, interferes with detectives interviewing his daughter and never once in 15 years checks in with detectives? The phone call combined with this seals it for me.

Lastly, an actual professional hitman wouldnt violently beat and gag someone before killing them. That's an indication of a personal rage. Professional hitmen just look at it as a business transaction and typically a single gunshot to the head, maybe two. Beating someone would also have a greater risk of leaving physical evidence. Finally, the professional hitman knows to blend in with the crowd, not bring any attention on themselves and typically their victims never see it coming. The fact that Mary called 911 means she saw it coming. I do believe someone was hired or killed Mary on Mikes behalf but they definitely were not a professional hitman. I believe it was also staged to look like a suicude?! How ridiculous is that?! Maybe by beating her the killer was trying to make it look like something else or maybe he beat he on the behalf of the actual person who wanted her dead.

Mary was shot with the gun that she kept in her car. I believe this killer was told to make it look like a suicide, perhaps use the ruse that she was "depressed" over a failing marriage and the alleged harassment of her coworker, and that the killer knew she had the gun under her seat in her car. I think Mary surprised the killer by fighting back, which is why she was beaten and there was evidence of a struggle.

I'm really unsure if the murders are related. I'd like to know more houston details that weren't featured on UM. Why would law enforcement say that they are not related other than to hide details?

That's really the only reason they would say it unless they truly believe them to be unrelated, which I doubt.

Aside from that houston is a violent city where random acts of violence occur daily. It could be reality that these cases are unrelated.

Right but the odds of two women, with the same name, similar in looks, both being murdered within a week of each other, in their vehicles, are pretty rare.

100% right. The phone company verified that this was a "completed" call, meaning whoever Morris called on his wife's cell phone answered the call. And this was 2 hours after she placed the 911 call. And this makes Mike Morris, and not the coworker, look more guilty.

Wait, his phone call to Mary's cell was placed two hours after her 911 call/murder? I thought the phone was found in the car. Was it not? If not, then we have a case of a killer taking the phone and then returning it later.

For one, unless he was following her, how would the coworker know what Mary was doing that Sunday? According to her friends, she was running errands and doing some work at her office that day. And what a coincidence that Mike Morris conveniently is out at the movies with his daughter during that time period.

Wanna know something else odd? The movie he took his daughter to see was Urban Legends: Final Cut. A horror movie with killing galore. How creepy is that?

Something interesting I've noticed: in one of the closed Mary Morris threads, among other blogs and message boards on the net, the coworker has continually denied the banging on the windows and threatening Mary on the day he quit from his job. He's adamantly denied it, and said that there were witnesses from the workplace who would say that that incident never happened. Curiously, on the Bizarre Murder DVD, this little part of the segment is missing. I know for certain there was a scene showing the coworker creepily standing in front of windows banging on them, but it was removed from the DVD. I wonder if he contacted them with information or proof that it didn't happen and they removed it from the segment.

Are you sure that was the Unsolved Mysteries segment? I believe the banging on the windows was featured on America's Most Wanted. You're right that the co-worker denied it. He went as far as to threaten the producers of AMW with a lawsuit for defamation.

Lastly, an actual professional hitman wouldnt violently beat and gag someone before killing them. That's an indication of a personal rage. Professional hitmen just look at it as a business transaction and typically a single gunshot to the head, maybe two. Beating someone would also have a greater risk of leaving physical evidence. Finally, the professional hitman knows to blend in with the crowd, not bring any attention on themselves and typically their victims never see it coming. The fact that Mary called 911 means she saw it coming. I do believe someone was hired or killed Mary on Mikes behalf but they definitely were not a professional hitman. I believe it was also staged to look like a suicude?! How ridiculous is that?! Maybe by beating her the killer was trying to make it look like something else or maybe he beat he on the behalf of the actual person who wanted her dead.

This is what I was alluding to the other day. To actually place the 911 call would take a decent amount of time. We know that she left an Eckerds (which are now CVS) and was going to work to clock out and go home. We have to assume that she didn't call 911 while on her way there to report someone following her because if that occurred, the killer would still be in his/her vehicle and would not be attacking Mary. One part of what I believed to have happened is that she either pulled into the place where her vehicle was found or she was forced off the road. (Do we know if there was any car damage to her vehicle?) If she did pull over to the the side of the road willingly, then I'm wondering if the killer may have pulled up next to her while she was driving to alert her of a flat tire or some sort of issue with her vehicle to get her to pull off. The area that her car was found at is off a main road onto a small graveled area with no stores or gas stations or anything next to it. After this occurred, something happened and she immediately called 911 but the attack on her started as soon as the killer reached her vehicle.

Wait, his phone call to Mary's cell was placed two hours after her 911 call/murder? I thought the phone was found in the car. Was it not? If not, then we have a case of a killer taking the phone and then returning it later.

Yes, it was two hours after the 911 call. And I don't know if the killer had the car and Mary's body that entire time, or the phone was returned later, but it all looks damning for Mike Morris. They even show a screen shot of her phone bill and it shows a list of about 8 or 9 calls to her cell phone after the 911 call, and every one of the calls shows a duration of 2 minutes, except for the 4 minute Mike Morris phone call. Assuming that Mary had voicemail on her phone, I think the 2 minute calls were friends and family calling her phone and leaving messages wondering where she was. That 4 minute call had to have been answered by someone.

Are you sure that was the Unsolved Mysteries segment? I believe the banging on the windows was featured on America's Most Wanted. You're right that the co-worker denied it. He went as far as to threaten the producers of AMW with a lawsuit for defamation.

Yes, I distinctly remember them showing it on UM because I remember how creepy the actor looked and it was definitely the same guy from the UM segment.

Yes, I distinctly remember them showing it on UM because I remember how creepy the actor looked and it was definitely the same guy from the UM segment.


Gotcha. The co-worker probably threatened the producers of UM with a lawsuit as well and they removed it from the DVD and all future broadcasts.

Something interesting I've noticed: in one of the closed Mary Morris threads, among other blogs and message boards on the net, the coworker has continually denied the banging on the windows and threatening Mary on the day he quit from his job. He's adamantly denied it, and said that there were witnesses from the workplace who would say that that incident never happened. Curiously, on the Bizarre Murder DVD, this little part of the segment is missing. I know for certain there was a scene showing the coworker creepily standing in front of windows banging on them, but it was removed from the DVD. I wonder if he contacted them with information or proof that it didn't happen and they removed it from the segment.

I could be off base here, but from what I recall, the Mary Morris case was featured on America's Most Wanted and that is where the re-enactment of the banging on the windows came from. In some of the older threads (many of which may have since been removed), the co-worker actually said he wanted to sue America's Most Wanted and would share a portion of the settlement monies with whomever provided him a copy of the episode that showed this specific scene (apparently he didn't have a copy of the episode himself).

From what I remember about the UM segment, there is just a re-enactment showing the co-workers drawing a patient's blood (he was nurse, IIRC) and filing a file.

ETA: D'oh! I see this has been addressed. I'm pretty sure I have the original airing of the Mary Morris UM episode on VHS someone. I'm curious now as to what was shown. I don't remember seeing the part in question, FWIW.

I'm pretty sure I have the original airing of the Mary Morris UM episode on VHS someone. I'm curious now as to what was shown. I don't remember seeing the part in question, FWIW.


Watch it immediately and report back! Haha

Mary was shot with her gun but according to the reports she was viciously beaten and gaged prior to being shot. Also what hitman doesn't bring his own gun? And if its just a "job" with no personal attachment why beat her before?

Mary was shot with her gun but according to the reports she was viciously beaten and gaged prior to being shot. Also what hitman doesn't bring his own gun? And if its just a "job" with no personal attachment why beat her before?

The theory is that it was made to look like a suicide because Mike told the hitman that she had a gun in the car. He wanted the hitter to shoot her with the gun in a manner that would indicate suicide. However, all hell broke loose for unknown reasons and she was beaten and gagged in the process. That, was not planned.

I could be off base here, but from what I recall, the Mary Morris case was featured on America's Most Wanted and that is where the re-enactment of the banging on the windows came from. In some of the older threads (many of which may have since been removed), the co-worker actually said he wanted to sue America's Most Wanted and would share a portion of the settlement monies with whomever provided him a copy of the episode that showed this specific scene (apparently he didn't have a copy of the episode himself).

From what I remember about the UM segment, there is just a re-enactment showing the co-workers drawing a patient's blood (he was nurse, IIRC) and filing a file.

ETA: D'oh! I see this has been addressed. I'm pretty sure I have the original airing of the Mary Morris UM episode on VHS someone. I'm curious now as to what was shown. I don't remember seeing the part in question, FWIW.

I rarely ever watched AMW, and I know I never saw the Mary Morris segment on there. I distinctly remember seeing a part of the segment where they show him lingering behind windows within the office around the same time they spoke of the things being rearranged on Mary's desk.

Been thinking about this case since the discussion has opened up again and have been wondering about the Laurie Gemmell-Mike Morris connection we got from Mary McGinnis Morris's coworker. Mike Morris may have been involved, he may not have (were it not for the phone call discrepancy and the ring ordeal, I'm not sure how strongly I'd feel about him being responsible--although I feel that he probably is given what we know), but one thing I really do not believe is that there was any sort of conspiracy between Ms. Gemmell and Mr. Morris. That whole thing just screams 'Sammy Wheeler' to me.

I think the two murders ARE related--the "wrong Mary Morris" call is far too much of a coincidence for the two NOT to be related.

Been thinking about this case since the discussion has opened up again and have been wondering about the Laurie Gemmell-Mike Morris connection we got from Mary McGinnis Morris's coworker. Mike Morris may have been involved, he may not have (were it not for the phone call discrepancy and the ring ordeal, I'm not sure how strongly I'd feel about him being responsible--although I feel that he probably is given what we know), but one thing I really do not believe is that there was any sort of conspiracy between Ms. Gemmell and Mr. Morris. That whole thing just screams 'Sammy Wheeler' to me.

I think the two murders ARE related--the "wrong Mary Morris" call is far too much of a coincidence for the two NOT to be related.

What conspiracy between Laurie Gemmell and Mike Morris are you referring to?

Here are Facebook links to those involved:

Laurie Gemmell: https://www.facebook.com/laurie.gemmell.9

Katy Morris: https://www.facebook.com/katyrosemorris?pnref=friends.search

Mike Morris: https://www.facebook.com/michael.morris.79219?fref=pb&hc_location=profile_browser

Not that it means anything, but Mike Morris and Laurie Gemmell are not "Facebook friends", however Katy is with both of them. Marilyn Blalock, who is the daughter of the first Mary Morris that was murdered, is Facebook friends with Katy and some of Mary's family. It does not appear that any of Mary McGinnis Morris' family are Facebook friends with Mike. Some are friends with Katy.

Mary was shot with her gun but according to the reports she was viciously beaten and gaged prior to being shot. Also what hitman doesn't bring his own gun? And if its just a "job" with no personal attachment why beat her before?

Most hitmen aren't professional in any way, it usually ends up being a coworker, a fellow barfly or a shady friend of a friend who's fine with committing various crimes for money. We don't know if the perpetrator had a weapon or not.

As far as Mary H. Morris, I know that the police are skeptical the cases are connected, although the strange phone call to police after Henderson Morris' murder makes that theory a bit more credible. I'm curious what explanation, if any, was given for the calls to Jay Morris' unlisted number from the apartment in Baytown, months after the murder.

The "banging on the windows" comment is from the Houston Chronicle (http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Killings-of-2-Mary-Morrises-prompt-questions-2064766.php). Also this statement:

McGinnis Morris' car had doors that locked when the car was put into gear, suggesting the person who attacked her had access to the car, Kuhlman said.

"She did not let anybody in," Kuhlman said. "It appeared it was somebody who would have been able to get into the locked car."

That would make sense of the staging because otherwise why wouldn't somebody going to kill a person bring a weapon such as a gun with them? I also sincerely doubt her coworker knew she carried a gun on her as from the timeline it was a somewhat recent that she acquired a gun. Plus, I doubt she waived it around. Only Mike knew about that gun and maybe a few very close friends/family.

What conspiracy between Laurie Gemmell and Mike Morris are you referring to?

I'm sure he'll be by to clarify (the co-worker has posted here many times), but the way I understand it, he believes Mike Morris and Laurie Gemmell conspired to set him up as a fall guy for the murder, framing the poor relationship the co-worker and Mary had at work as a motive.

I'm sure he'll be by to clarify (the co-worker has posted here many times), but the way I understand it, he believes Mike Morris and Laurie Gemmell conspired to set him up as a fall guy for the murder, framing the poor relationship the co-worker and Mary had at work as a motive.


Yeah, that's ridiculous. I believe Mike Morris is guilty personally, but I think its beyond far fetched to think that Laurie conspired with him. In all probability Laurie could've just been going off some stories Mary had told her about the coworker. Also, it might've been harder for her friend to think Mike was involved at the time.

I'm sure he'll be by to clarify (the co-worker has posted here many times), but the way I understand it, he believes Mike Morris and Laurie Gemmell conspired to set him up as a fall guy for the murder, framing the poor relationship the co-worker and Mary had at work as a motive.

Oh I see what you mean. I thought you were referencing something in the UM segment.

It's pretty clear from the co-workers rant that he and Laurie (who were co-workers as well) clearly did not like each other.

That's really the only reason they would say it unless they truly believe them to be unrelated, which I doubt.



Right but the odds of two women, with the same name, similar in looks, both being murdered within a week of each other, in their vehicles, are pretty rare.
I agree but I will say That's why I avoid staying anywhere in houston. Crimes that I thought were rare are the norm there. I guess its like that in any big city but there just seems to be so many violent criminals there especially in areas where there are apartments.

I agree but I will say That's why I avoid staying anywhere in houston. Crimes that I thought were rare are the norm there. I guess its like that in any big city but there just seems to be so many violent criminals there especially in areas where there are apartments.

You are absolutely right. I live outside of Houston but grew up in Houston. The crime has been terrible since the evacuees from Hurricane Katrina came over and never went back to New Orleans.

You are absolutely right. I live outside of Houston but grew up in Houston. The crime has been terrible since the evacuees from Hurricane Katrina came over and never went back to New Orleans.

Some of them were causing problems up here in New York. They didn't want to leave the hotel to head back home when the storm had ended months ago. The money they did get they spent it on meaningless stuff. One hotel paid them money to leave. They were really taking advantage of the situation.

Some of them were causing problems up here in New York. They didn't want to leave the hotel to head back home when the storm had ended months ago. The money they did get they spent it on meaningless stuff. One hotel paid them money to leave. They were really taking advantage of the situation.

That's absolutely not surprising considering these are many of the same people who were relentlessly looting the stores and raping women in the superdome.

Has this case been reaired on the Lifetime segments? I've yet to see it again (I'm sure I've seen it before but it has been so long ago). I'd like to see it again to refresh my memory of the case.

buy the DVD

Am I missing something as to why the police are skeptical about the two being related? I'm not sure I ever read anything concerning it--besides the sole fact that they're skeptical. I'm actually really surprised in light of not so much the circumstances of the two murders, but the "wrong Mary Morris" phone call to the police after Mary H. Morris was killed and BEFORE Mary M. Morris was killed.

Am I missing something as to why the police are skeptical about the two being related? I'm not sure I ever read anything concerning it--besides the sole fact that they're skeptical. I'm actually really surprised in light of not so much the circumstances of the two murders, but the "wrong Mary Morris" phone call to the police after Mary H. Morris was killed and BEFORE Mary M. Morris was killed.

I don't know if the police actually believe that, or if they are downplaying that scenario with the hopes of keeping what they have secret to the public. Some of the investigators interviewed seemed to think they weren't related, because one of them said something along the lines of "hitmen aren't that bumbling to where they just go around killing the wrong people".

I don't know if the police actually believe that, or if they are downplaying that scenario with the hopes of keeping what they have secret to the public.

Fifteen years later, I would hope they aren't keeping too much to themselves. At this point, it may not hurt to release certain information they may have to see if it does anything.


"hitmen aren't that bumbling to where they just go around killing the wrong people".

Technically, he's right. But he's speaking from a standpoint of a professional hitter whereas Mike likely hired a "friend of a friend".

I live in the Houston area, and the place has gone downhill in the past 10 years. I don't even go to Rodeo anymore. It's just a cesspool.

I still think the Mary Morris murders were an intentional botched hit on the first, and the real target the second. By intentionally botching it, the cops can run in circles trying to figure out if they are/were linked or not.

And that strategy is working, because here we are 15 years later, and no one has been charged with the crimes.

buy the DVD

They are not available for purchase anymore and the prices on ebay are crazy. I'm not going to spend that kind of money since I'm a couponer for one and two I'm not rolling in dough. I have 70 reruns on the DVR so I'm sure I'll run across the story sooner or later if they are reairing the segment. They is why I asked in the first place if anyone had seen this segment on the Farina reairs that air in the mornings.

They are not available for purchase anymore and the prices on ebay are crazy. I'm not going to spend that kind of money since I'm a couponer for one and two I'm not rolling in dough. I have 70 reruns on the DVR so I'm sure I'll run across the story sooner or later if they are reairing the segment. They is why I asked in the first place if anyone had seen this segment on the Farina reairs that air in the mornings.



Yes, it played a few months ago

Yes, it played a few months ago

Thank you! I'll be watching them later today while I clean up the bedroom. It is a rainy day so nothing better to do then clean out the DVR while I clean lol.

"Friends and family acknowledge McGinnis Morris began to carry a gun because of problems at work, but some offered conflicting reports about whether she had stopped.

"Mike told us she was carrying the gun up until her death, but a friend and co-worker said she was going to quit carrying it," Kuhlman said. "How would someone know she had a gun in her car? If she had been killed by just anyone with a gun, that would be one thing, but she was killed with the family gun."

McGinnis Morris' car had doors that locked when the car was put into gear, suggesting the person who attacked her had access to the car, Kuhlman said.

"She did not let anybody in," Kuhlman said. "It appeared it was somebody who would have been able to get into the locked car."

McGinnis Morris was not robbed; the only item Mike Morris reported missing was a ring she was known to wear. But months after the killing, a friend of the family who was having dinner with Mike Morris noticed that his 16-year-old daughter, Katy, was wearing the ring. The Morrises told the friend they had found it, and the friend later told Kuhlman.

Mike Morris, who moved back to West Virginia with Katy, said he has done everything asked of him.

"The police labeled me uncooperative as soon as I hired an attorney, which is my right," he said. "I gave them access to my apartment, fingerprints, blood samples -- everything, with the exception of a polygraph."

In her call to Gemmell, McGinnis Morris she said she may have recognized the person who made her nervous.

"She said she thought she had met this person through the person at work she was having problems with," Gemmell said.

Though the employee gave McGinnis Morris trouble, he had been to her home for a party, Kuhlman said. She and Mike Morris also attended a party that the employee had thrown.

"He was not excluded from company events," Kuhlman said. "They all know each other. They had been out together."

I found this from this article http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/689789/posts.

Three things I found interesting were that the attacker had to have a key to Marys McGuiness's car in order to enter it. The second was that both Mike and Mary had been to two parties with the ex coworker (work events). She even thought she recognized the guy who gave her the creeps as someone whom she met through this coworker at one of these parties. Now, obviously shes didn't say she was certain but still. I find it interesting that Mike had met this coworker twice as well.

I don't really see how anyone could have gotten a key to her car unless it was connected to Mike. This article also questions whether Mary was even carrying that gun anymore as she had told others she had stopped. It seems to me Mary didnt have the gun. Why? Because if she was able to all 911, she would've had the time to grab her gun in theory, if she thought she was in immediate danger. Also, if her car was locked and she had the gun, it seems she would've had either time to drive away or use the gun or atleast show it.

I am now convinced the attacker had both access to her car and the gun registered to Mike.

Three things I found interesting were that the attacker had to have a key to Marys McGuiness's car in order to enter it. The second was that both Mike and Mary had been to two parties with the ex coworker (work events). She even thought she recognized the guy who gave her the creeps as someone whom she met through this coworker at one of these parties. Now, obviously shes didn't say she was certain but still. I find it interesting that Mike had met this coworker twice as well.

Yes, I agree. My guess is, whenever she was on the phone with Laurie she said something like, "Hey that guy that was with (co-workers name) is here. He keeps looking at me. Kinda creeping me out. I can't remember his name but he came to a few company functions with him." Something along those lines.



I don't really see how anyone could have gotten a key to her car unless it was connected to Mike. This article also questions whether Mary was even carrying that gun anymore as she had told others she had stopped. It seems to me Mary didnt have the gun. Why? Because if she was able to call 911, she would've had the time to grab her gun in theory, if she thought she was in immediate danger. Also, if her car was locked and she had the gun, it seems she would've had either time to drive away or use the gun or atleast show it.

I am now convinced the attacker had both access to her car and the gun registered to Mike.

Good point about the gun. I hadn't thought of that. She probably did STOP carrying it and Mike gave the gun to the killer to make it look like a suicide but Mary fought back.

One thing that is interesting to me is that apparently Mike and Mary hosted a company party at their home. They lived in an apartment. I'm wondering if anyone at their apartment was ever questioned about any "guests" Mike may have had shortly before or after the murder? I also wonder if the apartment was gated or if it had security and if you had to sign in and out when visiting someone. Maybe a name from their party matched a name of a person on a security sign in sheet or a person that was seen at their home shortly before or after the murders.

...When a hitman is retained, you give them the parameters of what you are looking to have done, when it needs to be done, how you would prefer it done, etc. You also provide a picture and a schedule of where the person can be so that the hitter doesn't go looking all over town. The two Mary's look nothing alike save the fact that both are Caucasian females. I just don't understand how a hitter does this.

But, on the other hand, Mary McGinnis Morris wedding ring was gone. Generally when a hitman is retained, you request some sort of proof that the deed is done. Her ring was gone, then a year or so later, it is revealed that her daughter, Katy, has the ring. I am in no way implicating or pointing the finger at Katy Morris (she could not have done it as she was with her father at the movies when it occurred). Just merely pointing out that she had her mother's ring after this incident...

Here is a very good rundown of this case.... http://ididitforjodie.com/2013/08/04/mary-mary-not-so-contrary-the-laws-of-probability-and-the-murders-of-mary-morris/
RSBM. Hambone, you know too much about hiring a "hitter"!b

That is a good article on the case. I had forgotten about the details and the article was a great refresher. The author has a unique style, for sure.

The call to Mary's cell phone doesn't make sense. Actually, the explanation is what doesn't make sense.

Even in the early days of cell phones, they had a voice mail, right? I had a cell in 1999ish and it had voicemail. So when the husband called it would go to vm, and then it would just sit there until he hung up or the vm time limit was reached.

So why say it rang and rang? Just say you were so worried and trying to thing of what to do and you didn't realize vm had picked up.

And then you can't control of her phone company deleted the message or what happened from there.

I could maybe buy the cases being unrelated and this being a really weird fluke. But how do you explain the call to the newspaper in which a voice said, "They killed the wrong Mary"? (paraphrased)

This was made before the second murder? They have to be related, or the call would not be possible.
A better description of the call is in the article Halbone posted, http://ididitforjodie.com/2013/08/04/mary-mary-not-so-contrary-the-laws-of-probability-and-the-murders-of-mary-morris/

The call to Mary's cell phone doesn't make sense. Actually, the explanation is what doesn't make sense.

Even in the early days of cell phones, they had a voice mail, right? I had a cell in 1999ish and it had voicemail. So when the husband called it would go to vm, and then it would just sit there until he hung up or the vm time limit was reached.

So why say it rang and rang? Just say you were so worried and trying to thing of what to do and you didn't realize vm had picked up.

And then you can't control of her phone company deleted the message or what happened from there.
Good points. Yet another case of UM dealing with gaps in technology dealing with phone records and we in the present day have a difficult time relating.

Even IF Mikes story about the call was true (which its impossible) Why would he be that desperate to reach Mary that he would let the phone ring for 4 minutes?! It had only been two hours since she called her friend. So in two hours he is THAT panicked and desperate to reach her he lets the phone ring for 4 minutes?

Why would he be that desperate to reach Mary that he would let the phone ring for 4 minutes?! It had only been two hours since she called her friend. So in two hours he is THAT panicked and desperate to reach her he lets the phone ring for 4 minutes?

This is an important part of the story. It really doesn't make any sense. He knew he had to have an alibi for a specific time. He and his daughter went to the movies at that time. He called that phone knowing that the deed was supposed to have been done.

What also interesting is that, the hitman must have taken the phone with him/her. I highly doubt he/she stuck around the crime scene waiting on Mike's call.

Even IF Mikes story about the call was true (which its impossible) Why would he be that desperate to reach Mary that he would let the phone ring for 4 minutes?! It had only been two hours since she called her friend. So in two hours he is THAT panicked and desperate to reach her he lets the phone ring for 4 minutes?

Not to mention that he's so desperate to reach his wife that he lets her phone ring for four straight minutes... but doesn't bother to make any more attempts at calling back later to reach her?!

Not to mention that he's so desperate to reach his wife that he lets her phone ring for four straight minutes... but doesn't bother to make any more attempts at calling back later to reach her?!

Yep. If my wife wasn't answering her phone, I would keep calling until I got an answer while also driving around to look for her. Mike did neither. And the reason he did neither was because he found out what he needed to know on that four minute phone call with the killer. Mary was dead.

What I'm curious of. is how did he pay the killer? I'm sure Mike's assets were checked and double checked, including any and all bank accounts. Maybe someone owed him a lot of money and this was a way to erase a debt.

What I'm curious of. is how did he pay the killer? I'm sure Mike's assets were checked and double checked, including any and all bank accounts. Maybe someone owed him a lot of money and this was a way to erase a debt.

I actually started having flashbacks to Elmo Florence, the incompetent henchman who killed T.K. Harty and was paid a grand total of $125 for his services. Given how many mistakes this particular hitman seemed to make, maybe Mike got him real cheap.

I actually started having flashbacks to Elmo Florence, the incompetent henchman who killed T.K. Harty and was paid a grand total of $125 for his services. Given how many mistakes this particular hitman seemed to make, maybe Mike got him real cheap.

What credence, if any, do you give to the fact that Mary told Laurie Gemmell that someone she recognized (as the coworkers friend who had been to her home for a company party) was giving her the creeps? Could Mike have hired him? Or just a mere coincidence?

What credence, if any, do you give to the fact that Mary told Laurie Gemmell that someone she recognized (as the coworkers friend who had been to her home for a company party) was giving her the creeps? Could Mike have hired him? Or just a mere coincidence?

I only think it's possible that Mike could have hired an acquaintance to murder his wife if the first Mary Morris murder was completely unrelated. If Mary knew this person well enough to recognize him, I don't see how he could have killed the wrong Mary Morris by mistake. I still think Mike went and found an outsider with no connection to his family whatsoever.

I only think it's possible that Mike could have hired an acquaintance to murder his wife if the first Mary Morris murder was completely unrelated. If Mary knew this person well enough to recognize him, I don't see how he could have killed the wrong Mary Morris by mistake. I still think Mike went and found an outsider with no connection to his family whatsoever.

See, here's my problem with the hitman theory (and keep in mind that I do believe Mike hired a hitter), how the hell did he confuse one for the other?? I live in Houston. The two victims in this case did not live close by. One lived in Sugarland and the other in Baytown. That's about a 45 minute drive. Its not like they lived in the same neighborhood or drove similar cars. If this truly was a botched hit, then Mike hired the dumbest person on the planet to do it, but yet its been unsolved for 15 years!

See, here's my problem with the hitman theory (and keep in mind that I do believe Mike hired a hitter), how the hell did he confuse one for the other?? I live in Houston. The two victims in this case did not live close by. One lived in Sugarland and the other in Baytown. That's about a 45 minute drive. Its not like they lived in the same neighborhood or drove similar cars. If this truly was a botched hit, then Mike hired the dumbest person on the planet to do it, but yet its been unsolved for 15 years!

Yeah, it's quite different than the Don Devereaux-Doug Johnston case, which was also believed to be a mistaken identity hit, but in that case, both men lived across the street from each other, drove similar cars, and the hit wasn't ordered by someone who actually lived with the victim. In that scenario, it's perfectly plausible that an otherwise professional hitman could have killed the wrong target by mistake.

My only guess is that maybe Mike never even spoke with the hitman personally and used a middle man to hire someone who wasn't from the Houston area and had no familiarity with the victim at all. It could be a simple case of the hitman arriving in town and not having the proper info about his target, so he looks up the address of the wrong Mary Morris in the phone book.

Now I'm curious if there were any other women named Mary Morris living in Houston at that time. If so, they must have been pretty terrified after news about the two murders got out.

Now I'm curious if there were any other women named Mary Morris living in Houston at that time. If so, they must have been pretty terrified after news about the two murders got out.

There had to have been. Houston is so big and was big back then.

The first Mary Morris murder had to have been botched by a potential hitman. No one goes through that much length to deliberately set a vehicle on fire to destroy everything inside leaving no trace evidence behind, for no apparent reason. Burglary was ruled out, and there are zero suspects in the case. No one had a motive to murder the first Mary Morris.

I too always think of an Elmo Florence type of character who was hired to do the job. Whoever wanted the 2nd Mary Morris dead could have reached out to a "shady" friend or acquaintance who then reached out to others until he found someone willing to do the job. There could be more than one "middle man" per se. That has to be the only reason the wrong Mary Morris was killed.

I too always think of an Elmo Florence type of character who was hired to do the job. Whoever wanted the 2nd Mary Morris dead could have reached out to a "shady" friend or acquaintance who then reached out to others until he found someone willing to do the job. There could be more than one "middle man" per se. That has to be the only reason the wrong Mary Morris was killed.

The more middle men there are, the more likely one of them either grows a conscience or blathers about it to someone. Not a very smart way to go about it, if there were indeed numerous middle men. However, given how crazy everything turned out, it wouldn't surprise me.

Does anyone realize that as much as we mock the possibility of a botched hit, the hitter as well as Mike Morris were still good enough to keep this case unsolved for 15 years?

Mary had her guard up because of events going on in her life. She easily could have thought the person giving her the creeps was someone her ex coworker knew. She didn't tell Laurie she was sure it was her coworkers friend. According to Laurie, she said "she might recognize" him as her coworkers friend she met before. There is a huge difference. It might not have been that friend at all. Her mind just could have made the connection because of her issues with that ex coworker.

I would HOPE that police investigated Laurie's statement and found this coworkers friend whom he brought to company events. I'm assuming they ruled him out or he is still a suspect?

What confuses me is she called Laurie after leaving the store. Mary was on high alert and somehow within 12 mins she was attacked.

I'm assuming the attack happened either in the parking lot of her place of employment or in it. She had to go shut off the computers and she would be alone there. There are no witnesses to her attack so it could not have been in an open and public place like a Rite Aid parking lot on a Sunday afternoon. I'm also assuming the attack happened while she was in her vehicle because the detective said her car was locked and she did not let them in. The attacker had a way to gain access to the car.

I'm assuming the attack happened either in the parking lot of her place of employment or in it. She had to go shut off the computers and she would be alone there. There are no witnesses to her attack so it could not have been in an open and public place like a Rite Aid parking lot on a Sunday afternoon. I'm also assuming the attack happened while she was in her vehicle because the detective said her car was locked and she did not let them in. The attacker had a way to gain access to the car.

Well, let me give everyone a basic overview of where the place she worked at (Union Carbide) was/is located and where her car was found as I'm not sure who all on this board has been to Houston/has lived here.

Union Carbide is located off of I-10 (The Katy Freeway) on the west side of Houston. Her car was found off of 290 (Another major highway in Houston) and West Little York. The distance between those two points is about 15-20 minutes.

The Eckerds she was at when she called Laurie was also located in the 290/West Little York area. It is now a CVS. I don't believe she ever made it back to work. There wasn't enough time between her phone call to Laurie advising that she was about to head to work to turn off her computer then go home and the call to 911.

In numerous articles, it is mentioned that there was no forced entry and police speculate that the killer had access to the car. Presumably, by using Mike Morris' keys. Maybe the killer gained entry to her vehicle while she was in the Eckerds. I have mentioned before that the movie Mike and his daughter were seeing at the time was Urban Legends 2. I never saw that film but I did see the first one, Urban Legend. In that movie, the killer is crouched behind the driver's seat with an axe, waiting for the lady driving to pull off before he kills her. Maybe something similar happened here.

I tend to think that the coworker's friend (whom it is speculated was the man Mary had seen at the Eckerd's) was checked and cleared by police. The guy had to have had an alibi or else he would be your #1 suspect leading the whole plan back to Mary's ex-coworker.

Mike took his what 10 year old daughter to see Urban Legends 2?! Okay, I'm not a parent but that seems pretty age inappropriate?

Thanks for the info Hambone. So, if she never made it to work, how did the killer come into contact with her if she was driving? I doubt she would have just pulled over for a stranger given how creeped out and alert she was. She might have called 911 while driving, pulled into either a parking lot or off the side of the road thinking she was safe in her car while locked but the attacker had access to her car and opened the door while she was on the phone to 911? That's complete speculation.

I still don't see why she would have pulled over in a non public area if she was that scared. I would have drove to the most populated public place or drove straight to a police station. That makes me think she did make it to work either while on the phone to 911 or made it in the parking lot.

Mike took his what 10 year old daughter to see Urban Legends 2?! Okay, I'm not a parent but that seems pretty age inappropriate?

I believe Katy was 16 when this occurred, but your point still stands. Not sure I'd take my kids to see that either. Now if they see it with their friends, that's one thing, but taking them to see it? Not me.

Thanks for the info Hambone. So, if she never made it to work, how did the killer come into contact with her if she was driving? I doubt she would have just pulled over for a stranger given how creeped out and alert she was. She might have called 911 while driving, pulled into either a parking lot or off the side of the road thinking she was safe in her car while locked but the attacker had access to her car and opened the door while she was on the phone to 911? That's complete speculation.

I think that may have been something similar to what happened.

I still don't see why she would have pulled over in a non public area if she was that scared. I would have drove to the most populated public place or drove straight to a police station. That makes me think she did make it to work either while on the phone to 911 or made it in the parking lot.

If she made it back to work, then the killer drove her car, blood all inside of it along with her dead body, back over to 290 and West Little York. I just don't see that happening. What was special about that area that he needed to leave her body there?

Also, if she did call 911 from work and was accosted at work/killer jumped in her car at work, then the security cameras that are all over that building would have captured it.

Forgive me if this has been asked and answered already, but how isolated was the area where the 2nd Mary was found?

Forgive me if this has been asked and answered already, but how isolated was the area where the 2nd Mary was found?

Not very isolated. There are several stores and gas stations down that road. She was found pulled off to the side on a makeshift gravel road.

I feel weird looking at Mike's facebook...he seems like the type of loving grandparent who definitely wouldn't pay someone to kill his wife. It's tripping me out. Strange, sad case.

I feel weird looking at Mike's facebook...he seems like the type of loving grandparent who definitely wouldn't pay someone to kill his wife. It's tripping me out. Strange, sad case.

I had similar thoughts when looking at it. I just don't see how he's innocent in all of this though.

Yeah but if I didn't know what Jules Caylor did, I would think the same thing looking at his facebook. He doesn't seem like a narrassistic nutjob on facebook but remember it is facebook. I personally know MANY people with whos facebook is nothing like their real life

In response to posts #69 - #71, I agree with all of it. In fact, most of the entire state of Louisiana sucks. Let's see, what do they have there? Crime, corruption and filth. Throughout the entire state. And people who are at the extreme ends of the political spectrum, one end or the other.

Try being in Houston when Katrina happened. Those people overtook our city, raped and murdered women who were volunteering to help at the Astrodome and brought down property value all over the city. If anyone has enough time of their hands, go look at the property value for Spring, Tx (just north of Houston) and Sugarland, Tx (just west of Houston) in 2004 and then in 2006, after the Katrina "victims" had been here for well over a year.

In response to posts #69 - #71, I agree with all of it. In fact, most of the entire state of Louisiana sucks. Let's see, what do they have there? Crime, corruption and filth. Throughout the entire state. And people who are at the extreme ends of the political spectrum, one end or the other.

The only time I can recall people from Louisiana staying at my hotel they complained to my boss that I called 911 for them. Yes, in my attempt to get them help they complained that I seemed "bothered" by it, whatever the hell that means. Yeah, well pardon me if I was a bit tired at 7 a.m. after having worked all night, and pardon me if I was confused because you told me next to nothing about your situation. I also had a coworker who went to a football game in Louisiana and said it was the only time in her life she was afraid of being killed. They don't like outsiders there.

Some people thought Hurricane Katrina was bad. I thought it wasn't bad enough. I'd be perfectly content with pulling the decent people out of there, moving them to other states, and watching the state get wiped right off the map!

After an irate customer threatened that she would cancel her service, I very calmly stated that I was of the belief that the customer is always right. I thought I was being clever. My boss failed to see the humor....

All kidding aside, many years ago a friend and I vacationed in New Orleans. While on a midnight walking ghost tour through the Quarter, we were informed by the guide that Louisiana used to be a penal colony back in the day. While I have nothing but love for the city, somehow I wasn't terribly surprised.

Louisiana easily has some of the craziest people I've ever met. At the same time they were some of the most hospitable. It is ... unique. I myself have never encountered hostility or had a bad experience while in Baton Rouge or New Orleans, but yeah, there's something in the water there. Katrina did chase a lot of bad apples out of the slums but it also forcefully relocated a lot of decent (but still cajun crazy) people. Easily the most unique collection of people in a central area in the US. But every location has it's quirks and bad apples. New Orleans as a whole has or had a disproportionate number, though. Fortunately I've never had the displeasure of dealing with them in a threatening manner. I still wouldn't deem the whole state "bad" because of it though. Wiseguy, you seem to have encountered a small sample set. You surely should be able to know not to draw conclusions on the state as a whole based off 1/100000th of the population who happened to make it to Michigan.

Louisiana with their "parishes" and their "jungle primaries", I think they enjoy being different just for the sake of being different. They need to start acting like the rest of America.

Louisiana easily has some of the craziest people I've ever met. At the same time they were some of the most hospitable. It is ... unique. I myself have never encountered hostility or had a bad experience while in Baton Rouge or New Orleans, but yeah, there's something in the water there. Katrina did chase a lot of bad apples out of the slums but it also forcefully relocated a lot of decent (but still cajun crazy) people. Easily the most unique collection of people in a central area in the US. But every location has it's quirks and bad apples. New Orleans as a whole has or had a disproportionate number, though. Fortunately I've never had the displeasure of dealing with them in a threatening manner. I still wouldn't deem the whole state "bad" because of it though. Wiseguy, you seem to have encountered a small sample set. You surely should be able to know not to draw conclusions on the state as a whole based off 1/100000th of the population who happened to make it to Michigan.

I'm sure there are some decent people there. I have never met any of them.
The state is known for corrupt politicians, corrupt police officers and criminals. They make up more than 1/100000th of the population. I think deep down you know what I'm talking about.

I'm sure there are some decent people there. I have never met any of them.
The state is known for corrupt politicians, corrupt police officers and criminals. They make up more than 1/100000th of the population. I think deep down you know what I'm talking about.

You've got to love a city that names their prostitution hot spot after a politician, lol. The good times always roll down in Storyville!

You've got to love a city that names their prostitution hot spot after a politician, lol. The good times always roll down in Storyville!

One of the senators from that state likes the prostitutes. He also calls himself "a family man." In every other state, he would resign in disgrace. In Louisiana, they practically have made him a saint. He's also probably the next governor from there. And what great governors they have had there (a suspected murderer, a woman who didn't let Katrina interfere with her lunch plans, and the backwards moron who currently runs things and has financially ruined the state.) This is also the state that very nearly had David Duke as their governor.

One of the senators from that state likes the prostitutes. He also calls himself "a family man." In every other state, he would resign in disgrace. In Louisiana, they practically have made him a saint. He's also probably the next governor from there. And what great governors they have had there (a suspected murderer, a woman who didn't let Katrina interfere with her lunch plans, and the backwards moron who currently runs things and has financially ruined the state.) This is also the state that very nearly had David Duke as their governor.

Your point is well made. There's no doubting that the state of Louisiana has a “colorful" reputation. Many of the natives are proud of it. On the first night of our vacation, the night manager of our hotel caught us on the way out and said, “You two seem like good kids so I'm tell you straight up to stay out of Storyville. There's plenty to do elsewhere."
On a positive note, I've never had better eats in my life! Nothing beats authentic Louisiana Gumbo.

Did anyone here listen to the Serial podcast? I thought of this case when they investigated a phone call on the call log to determine whether a 2+ minute call on the record definitely meant the call was completed.

It turns out at the time of that case (1999), many cell phone companies charged you for a completed call if you allowed the phone to ring for an "unreasonable" amount of time. In the Adnan case, "unreasonable" for his company was anything over 30 seconds. If you let the phone ring longer than that, it counted as a completed call even if no one picked up, and the record would count the call as however long you let it ring.

This was around the time of the Mary Morris murders, so it's definitely possible that Mike Morris could have let the phone ring all that time and it show up on his bill as a completed call. Depends on his provider and the user agreement at that time, but if that's the case, one of the biggest mysteries in the case against him seems suddenly explainable.

Did anyone here listen to the Serial podcast? I thought of this case when they investigated a phone call on the call log to determine whether a 2+ minute call on the record definitely meant the call was completed.

It turns out at the time of that case (1999), many cell phone companies charged you for a completed call if you allowed the phone to ring for an "unreasonable" amount of time. In the Adnan case, "unreasonable" for his company was anything over 30 seconds. If you let the phone ring longer than that, it counted as a completed call even if no one picked up, and the record would count the call as however long you let it ring.

This was around the time of the Mary Morris murders, so it's definitely possible that Mike Morris could have let the phone ring all that time and it show up on his bill as a completed call. Depends on his provider and the user agreement at that time, but if that's the case, one of the biggest mysteries in the case against him seems suddenly explainable.

One of the investigators interviewed in the segment had said that he verified with the phone company that it was definitely a completed call. I find it hard to believe that someone would let the phone ring for a full four minutes without someone answering it. It seems like a short amount of time, but it feels like an eternity when you're just listening to it ring and ring.

Did anyone here listen to the Serial podcast? I thought of this case when they investigated a phone call on the call log to determine whether a 2+ minute call on the record definitely meant the call was completed.

It turns out at the time of that case (1999), many cell phone companies charged you for a completed call if you allowed the phone to ring for an "unreasonable" amount of time. In the Adnan case, "unreasonable" for his company was anything over 30 seconds. If you let the phone ring longer than that, it counted as a completed call even if no one picked up, and the record would count the call as however long you let it ring.

This was around the time of the Mary Morris murders, so it's definitely possible that Mike Morris could have let the phone ring all that time and it show up on his bill as a completed call. Depends on his provider and the user agreement at that time, but if that's the case, one of the biggest mysteries in the case against him seems suddenly explainable.

You know I never considered this, but you're absolutely right. The problem I have with this however, is that I would expect LE to investigate this possibility. If this were indeed the case, it seems that LE could confirm this as having happened, and in so doing, put the mystery of the four minute phone call to rest. The fact that the phone call in question is still unresolved seems rather telling IMO.

I grew up right outside of Boston,MA and still spend a lot of time with family in New England. I now live in Buffalo,NY. It's so funny that New England/NY is stereotyped by the deep south as being rude. When I visited parts of the Deep South I encountered a lot of rudeness (btw I don't have a Boston accent). Louisana in general is a bad place to be. The poverty and crime are incredibly high. I believe Louisiana always ranks 1 or 2 on the worst of lists for crime, poverty, education ect. I don't think its a coincidence that the deep Bible Belt states are also the ones least educated with higher than average crime rates. Again, this is a generalization. I am not saying every single person from these areas are like this.

In response to posts #69 - #71, I agree with all of it. In fact, most of the entire state of Louisiana sucks. Let's see, what do they have there? Crime, corruption and filth. Throughout the entire state. And people who are at the extreme ends of the political spectrum, one end or the other.

The only time I can recall people from Louisiana staying at my hotel they complained to my boss that I called 911 for them. Yes, in my attempt to get them help they complained that I seemed "bothered" by it, whatever the hell that means. Yeah, well pardon me if I was a bit tired at 7 a.m. after having worked all night, and pardon me if I was confused because you told me next to nothing about your situation. I also had a coworker who went to a football game in Louisiana and said it was the only time in her life she was afraid of being killed. They don't like outsiders there.

Some people thought Hurricane Katrina was bad. I'd be perfectly content with pulling the decent people out of there, moving them to other states, and watching the state get wiped right off the map!



I love my state :)

I like pancakes.

You know I never considered this, but you're absolutely right. The problem I have with this however, is that I would expect LE to investigate this possibility. If this were indeed the case, it seems that LE could confirm this as having happened, and in so doing, put the mystery of the four minute phone call to rest. The fact that the phone call in question is still unresolved seems rather telling IMO.

They did. Law enforcement that investigated this case said on the broadcast that they verified with the cell phone company that is most definitely a completed call.

I like pancakes.

I like crepes. :)

They did. Law enforcement that investigated this case said on the broadcast that they verified with the cell phone company that is most definitely a completed call.

Right... but remember that it may have counted as a completed call if someone just stayed on the line for too long. They very well may have been able to say the call was not just completed but picked up from the other side, but the info on UM isn't detailed enough to know if they have that.

Could the phone companies look back at that time and clarify whether a call was completed because someone picked up vs. the caller stayed on so long their call was marked as a completed call? Maybe, I'm not sure. I know at least on Serial they could not go back and confirm whether a call was completed because someone picked up or because the caller stayed on too long, but of course that was 15+ years later.

Right... but remember that it may have counted as a completed call if someone just stayed on the line for too long. They very well may have been able to say the call was not just completed but picked up from the other side, but the info on UM isn't detailed enough to know if they have that.

Could the phone companies look back at that time and clarify whether a call was completed because someone picked up vs. the caller stayed on so long their call was marked as a completed call? Maybe, I'm not sure. I know at least on Serial they could not go back and confirm whether a call was completed because someone picked up or because the caller stayed on too long, but of course that was 15+ years later.

Mike claimed it rang for 4 minutes. That isn't possible and yes it is possible to tell if the call just rang or if the other line was picked up. Mike didn't say "it rang and then it picked up but nobody said anything or it was just background noise." He specifically said it just rang for the entire 4 minutes.

Mike claimed it rang for 4 minutes. That isn't possible and yes it is possible to tell if the call just rang or if the other line was picked up. Mike didn't say "it rang and then it picked up but nobody said anything or it was just background noise." He specifically said it just rang for the entire 4 minutes.

Right. And the detective interviewed had said that it was not the case of a call going unanswered for 4 minutes, but it was in fact a completed call.

Try being in Houston when Katrina happened. Those people overtook our city, raped and murdered women who were volunteering to help at the Astrodome and brought down property value all over the city. If anyone has enough time of their hands, go look at the property value for Spring, Tx (just north of Houston) and Sugarland, Tx (just west of Houston) in 2004 and then in 2006, after the Katrina "victims" had been here for well over a year.
Houston had these same type of people long before hurricane Katrina. Not to diminish what you are saying because New Orleans has always been known to have bad crime and you are 100% right I want to say houston and maybe dallas saw a spike in violent crime after Katrina(As well as other cities)....I'm from north Texas but I didn't live in dfw at that time.

I would just point out that every large city(especially houston) has problems with violent crime. I lived in a apt complex in Houston in 1989 and it was probably the worst six months of my life as a child. It just happened to coincide with the time I started watching UM:eek:

The only people I had to go by for Louisiana are the actors from the Audrey moate segment

Just joking. Actually everyone that I know personally from there are very good people and well educated.

I'm just speculating here but its trying to get all the pieces to fit.

The matter that seems to be confusing people is how the killer managed to get into the car. I don't believe the killer had a key, the only way he would get one is from Mike Morris himself. If the killer had the keys they could of course been hiding in the back seat but how would Mary have time to call 911. If she was already in the car with the keys in the ignition and the killer used a key to enter the car why didn't she immediately start to drive away possibly preventing him from getting in the car and escaping.

I could be wrong here but I believe that the killer perhaps met Mary of foot and tried to accost her but she managed to escape or that Mary became suspicious of a person and called 911 as she ran for her vehicle. We know that she was very alert and could of spotted someone following her. In the process of getting into her car and trying to put the keys in the ignition she drops the phone in the car footwell. She doesn't have a chance to put the keys in and lock the car thus the killer can enter the car and begin viciously attacking her when she fought back.

Maybe then in attempt to grab the phone from the footwell / under the seat he finds the gun and shoots her and disconnects the 911 call after the 12 minutes.

A hired killer could have done this or an sex attacker. I'm still trying to figure this out. Initially I believed that this was a hired hit but my mind is assessing all possibilities.

Let me know what you think of this theory. The rest of case I'm going to have to think about a bit more.

That theory still doesn't explain the 4 minute phone call mike said just rang which is impossible. It cant happen so somebody picked up that line 2 hours after Marys call 911.

That theory still doesn't explain the 4 minute phone call mike said just rang which is impossible. It cant happen so somebody picked up that line 2 hours after Marys call 911.

I know that. I haven't even attempted a theory on the phone call.

Wait, his phone call to Mary's cell was placed two hours after her 911 call/murder? I thought the phone was found in the car. Was it not? If not, then we have a case of a killer taking the phone and then returning it later.



Wanna know something else odd? The movie he took his daughter to see was Urban Legends: Final Cut. A horror movie with killing galore. How creepy is that?



Are you sure that was the Unsolved Mysteries segment? I believe the banging on the windows was featured on America's Most Wanted. You're right that the co-worker denied it. He went as far as to threaten the producers of AMW with a lawsuit for defamation.

You do have the option of a pm either way I will follow up. Only avery few people know these details and you are one of them. Why. Thanks

To quote Eminem (whom I despise), "Guess who's back...back again..."

So... I don't get it. Hambone knew the movie that Mike saw. He's from Houston. What's the significance here?

Why should a post be deleted just because we know the movie?

I guess it would not hurt to share a strong theory of mine. The daughter of Mike and Mary Morris went to the movie, Urban Legends 2 on October 15th, 2000. She may have used Mikes cell phone to make the 4 minute call. Who leaves a movie to make a 4 minute phone call and lets it ring? Mike did not allow access by police to his daughter. The 15 and and a half year old daughter was found with Mary's ring. Mary had told me that she was not happy with Katie's choice of some boy in October, 2000. 2 Harris county homicide detectives flew to West Virginia in 2007 and met with Katie and her boyfriend, Timmy.

So... Hambone is the hitman? Sounds plausible. *eyeroll*

Hambone is likely as not no hitman. just a matter of no stones unturned and it is a real curiosity how he came up with the movie name. AMC Theaters is a big place. Just because someone lives near Sugar Land does not really justify how they would know it was Urban Legends (actually 2) released in the early fall of 2000. Now, perhaps he could just simply state how he knows that info. I did check all of my emails, messages on this site etc etc, and found nothing to indicate how he would know that when no one else on this site has mentioned it. There are some plausible explanations but I think he could just say how he knows. Just common sense is all. No leap to blame. Real simple.

So... Hambone is the hitman? Sounds plausible. *eyeroll*

This is totally the new "Rob did it"! :lol:

I do not wish to implicate Hambone but I do value accountability by anyone. I do not wish to comment much at all on this forum unless I see something that may help the case. This is a forum for discussion for you people.

Then please, do let "us people" be, lay off Hambone, and please stop pretending like you're a member of the doggone Harris County Sheriff's Department.

Well. You are right. Rob didn't do it.

Well. You are right. Rob didn't do it.

And neither did Hambone.

What do you have to do to get banned in these parts?

What do you have to do to get banned in these parts?

I could ask my banned friend.. ;)

And neither did Hambone.

Are we totally sure he's been ruled out as a suspect?

answer publicly please on this forum hambone 2421.

Koala,

A few years ago when I mentioned that I was from Houston in this forum, you private messaged and emailed me all kinds of information on this case. I did not ask for this information, mind you, but I did read it. You mentioned in one of your emails that Urban Legend was the name of the movie that they went to see. You even gave the theater name. So, to answer your question, you are why I know that piece of information.

Are we totally sure he's been ruled out as a suspect?


Hahahaha, you would say that.

What do you have to do to get banned in these parts?

Excellent question (said in Dwight Schrute's voice).

Koala,

A few years ago when I mentioned that I was from Houston in this forum, you private messaged and emailed me all kinds of information on this case. I did not ask for this information, mind you, but I did read it. You mentioned in one of your emails that Urban Legend was the name of the movie that they went to see. You even gave the theater name. So, to answer your question, you are why I know that piece of information.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Koala,

A few years ago when I mentioned that I was from Houston in this forum, you private messaged and emailed me all kinds of information on this case. I did not ask for this information, mind you, but I did read it. You mentioned in one of your emails that Urban Legend was the name of the movie that they went to see. You even gave the theater name. So, to answer your question, you are why I know that piece of information.


This is soooooo hilarious!!!!

For those who aren't aware, Timmy Estep, as mentioned above by Koala (Duane), was Katy's boyfriend.

:eek2:

Holy sh*t.

Call me crazy, but I think the guy might be on to something.

Thinking about this logically for a second: if a "hitman" was indeed hired to kill Mary Morris, but killed the wrong one by mistake, and then whoever wanted Mary dead just went ahead and killed her his or herself, it would account for the fact that both crime scenes were completely different. Plus, if the 911 calls rumor is true, if she did indeed say "they" are trying to kill me, this would seem to indicate that she not only knew her killer/s, but that there could have possibly been more than one person involved. It would also account for the fact that whoever killed her had knowledge of the fact that Mary carried Mike's gun in her car. Granted, this information could have been passed along to a "hitman", but this "hitman" did next to nothing in terms of getting rid of evidence during the 2nd Mary's murder. The 2nd murder seems almost too amateur to me. Which leads credence to the theory that the 2nd Mary Morris was murdered by someone who had hired the original "hitman" to kill her themselves.

I knew I should have read it better, lol now it is gone. I just scanned it.

Call me crazy, but I think the guy might be on to something.

Thinking about this logically for a second: if a "hitman" was indeed hired to kill Mary Morris, but killed the wrong one by mistake, and then whoever wanted Mary dead just went ahead and killed her his or herself, it would account for the fact that both crime scenes were completely different. Plus, if the 911 calls rumor is true, if she did indeed say "they" are trying to kill me, this would seem to indicate that she not only knew her killer/s, but that there could have possibly been more than one person involved. It would also account for the fact that whoever killed her had knowledge of the fact that Mary carried Mike's gun in her car. Granted, this information could have been passed along to a "hitman", but this "hitman" did next to nothing in terms of getting rid of evidence during the 2nd Mary's murder. The 2nd murder seems almost too amateur to me. Which leads credence to the theory that the 2nd Mary Morris was murdered by someone who had hired the original "hitman" to kill her themselves.


I agree, especially the point made about hiring an illegal. I'd forgotten that it was in an area with heavy migrant travel. Now it's all gone.

Something else to consider:

In the UM segment, they specifically state, "Det. Kuhlman wondered why the call showed up on Mary’s cell phone bill if no one answered."

http://unsolved.com/sites/default/files2/mur_maryLou_maryMcginnis_morris4.jpg

The call log shows Mike Morris called at 7:11 p.m. that day and that it lasted for four minutes. But curiously, there are four other calls that are "incoming" calls that appear on Mary's bill as well (after she dialed 911). All of these calls lasted 2 minutes. But if these calls showed up on Mary's cell phone bill, assuming that no one picked up, would it be that much of a stretch to say that Mike's phone call might not have been answered? I mean even 2 minutes seems like an eternity on a cell phone, and I don't think (even back then) that phones would ring for 2 full minutes before either going to a voicemail or going to the answering service saying, "the party you are trying to reach is unavailable". It does seem odd that Mike's call is 2 minutes longer than the other incoming calls, but with those other calls showing up on her bill as well, I don't think it necessarily means that it was a completed call. I admittedly know next to nothing about how cell phone bills work, but I do wonder if this could have been an error on the phone bill somehow, or if it's possible that he did in fact let the phone ring for 4 minutes.

ETA: Guess I should add that I in no way don't think that this call made by Mike to Mary's cell phone isn't suspicious, and the cops have every reason to find it suspicious, but I am curious to know as to whether or not it is remotely possible that the phone could have rang for four minutes and still shown up on her bill.

Call me crazy, but I think the guy might be on to something.

Thinking about this logically for a second: if a "hitman" was indeed hired to kill Mary Morris, but killed the wrong one by mistake, and then whoever wanted Mary dead just went ahead and killed her his or herself, it would account for the fact that both crime scenes were completely different. Plus, if the 911 calls rumor is true, if she did indeed say "they" are trying to kill me, this would seem to indicate that she not only knew her killer/s, but that there could have possibly been more than one person involved. It would also account for the fact that whoever killed her had knowledge of the fact that Mary carried Mike's gun in her car. Granted, this information could have been passed along to a "hitman", but this "hitman" did next to nothing in terms of getting rid of evidence during the 2nd Mary's murder. The 2nd murder seems almost too amateur to me. Which leads credence to the theory that the 2nd Mary Morris was murdered by someone who had hired the original "hitman" to kill her themselves.

Could be, but I don't see it. I believe that the reason the second crime scene was so messy (in terms of evidence) was because she was killed in a very busy area with a lot of passing cars and small businesses and shops all around her. The first Mary Morris was killed in a more secluded, rural area, therefore the killer likely had a lot more time to do away with evidence and torch the crime scene. Cant exactly torch anything when cars are passing by on a busy street.

I also think the fact that she said "they're trying to kill me" may lead credence to her not knowing her killer. She could have just as easily said "My husband is trying to kill me" or "John Smith is trying to kill me".

Have you ever called someone but it hasn't rang right away? Like there's a delayed silence? I always presume that it's taking a while to search for the phone then it begins ringing after a few seconds? Maybe that happened here. Maybe that only happens to me lol

okay I just got creeped out. Koala private messaged me. Ugh

okay I just got creeped out. Koala private messaged me. Ugh

Interesting. Please tell more.

I see this thread is going well.

okay I just got creeped out. Koala private messaged me. Ugh

Welcome to the club!

okay I just got creeped out. Koala private messaged me. Ugh


LOL, pm me as well. Why did it get deleted?

and to the person on page 11, yes it happens. Every time I use my house phone to call my mom on her house phone, it is silent for about 15 seconds then rings. I would never wait four minutes, though.

Oh nothing just rambled on about emails, transcripts and his theories and to contact him via email. Pretty much the same things he did to others from what Ive gathered from older threads. Okay, I can now see why this guy would be unbearable to work with. Sorry, but obsessing over a case like he does, trolling these sites, volunteering every bit of information to complete strangers, and spewing every theory he can 15 years later just seems umm normal? It kind of screams unstable. Even innocent, I can honestly see why he would be a nightmare to work with.

Oh nothing just rambled on about emails, transcripts and his theories and to contact him via email. Pretty much the same things he did to others from what Ive gathered from older threads. Okay, I can now see why this guy would be unbearable to work with. Sorry, but obsessing over a case like he does, trolling these sites, volunteering every bit of information to complete strangers, and spewing every theory he can 15 years later just seems umm normal? It kind of screams unstable. Even innocent, I can honestly see why he would be a nightmare to work with.

Said it once and i'll say it again, WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO DO TO GET BANNED? He's obviously stepped over a few lines.

I mean I just don't get the "obsession" with the case. Is it because he's considered to be a suspect in the eyes of many that solving the case will clear his name? I could understand that, but this is beyond strange. And that's precisely why I believe him to be innocent. No guilty person, narcissistic or not, is going to keep injecting themselves into the spotlight every chance they get. Just look at what Jeffrey MacDonald did after the Article 32 hearing "cleared" him. Nothing. And I'm also under the impression that he's talked to the police several times, and cooperated with them. Something that Mike Morris did not do.

Said it once and i'll say it again, WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO DO TO GET BANNED? He's obviously stepped over a few lines.
Being annoying doesn't usually get you banned. I did tell him a few days ago to stop posting on this topic because it was getting out of hand.

I mean I just don't get the "obsession" with the case. Is it because he's considered to be a suspect in the eyes of many that solving the case will clear his name? I could understand that, but this is beyond strange. And that's precisely why I believe him to be innocent. No guilty person, narcissistic or not, is going to keep injecting themselves into the spotlight every chance they get. Just look at what Jeffrey MacDonald did after the Article 32 hearing "cleared" him. Nothing. And I'm also under the impression that he's talked to the police several times, and cooperated with them. Something that Mike Morris did not do.

I agree. As odd as the behavior is, no way would a guilty person behave that way. I do agree with you earlier too that he may be onto something when it comes to Laurie Gemmell. His theory makes sense.

I cant say Im into his theories (in my PM he said Laurie, Katy BF and Mike were all suspect) However, I dont think he did it either. I just know his absolute obsession with this case 15 years later is so bizarre. He doesnt strike me as a stable individual so I can see why there was tension between him and Mary. He was probably a nightmare to work with and once she was on his bad side he became obsessed with discrediting her. Its pretty clear in his pattern of behavior even now. I dont see him as a murderer but given his history with Mary he should have expected he would be a suspect. Its 15 years later and he is still acting insane about it

This case was a lot like the Eric Tamiyasu murder and the Sammy Wheeler murder. People slinging attacks at one another, blaming each other, suggesting "other suspects", etc.

This case was a lot like the Eric Tamiyasu murder and the Sammy Wheeler murder. People slinging attacks at one another, blaming each other, suggesting "other suspects", etc.

Yes.

I refuse to entertain his nonsense for that very reason. He's just a troublemaker, always has been.

^^^ yeah and weird. good reply Hambone! I'm glad it was cleared up in public for us all to see. :cool:

Got into the UM mood again after a long hiatus and this is one of the cases I ran across recently on the video site owned by Google.

One thing I wonder is why the police (at least back then) were adamant that the two murders were not connected? They never explained why they felt that way. They also scoffed at the notion that the first murder was a "botched hit." So, I must ask, could it be a ruse? Could it be that they suspect (like most people) that the two are connected but wanted to make the killer believe that they think otherwise? Police do use such tricks during investigations like this.

In either case, I am not sure I buy the "botched hit" theory to explain the death of the "first" Mary. I have a hard time believing that a hitman would get it wrong. Not only would he not get paid, but he is risking prison for nothing. No, I think a hitman is going to be sure he has the right person (photos, car make/model, license plate number, place of employment, etc). He isn't just going to scour the phonebook and look for the first Mary Morris he finds (remember Arnold in Terminator?).

12 minutes before her death, the 2nd Mary told her friend on the phone that she had encountered a "strange" or "creepy" man in the supermarket. I would imagine a professional killer (doing it for the money) would try to stay as discreet as possible. He isn't going to want to bring attention to himself. The fact she was creeped out by a strange man implies to me that the motive was not a professional hit but rather some psychopath/pervert/rapist.

However, it's still hard to get past the husband calling her phone and talking to "someone" for four minutes (this was after she was dead). He claimed he just "let it ring" but the Police (rightly) claim that it would not show up on the bill if the other party didn't answer. I know this to be the way the billing is done.

So, I suppose I am saying that I don't buy that the two are connected, but I do think there's a possibility Mary's husband had her killed for life insurance money (a common motive in spousal murders), though I am not 100% convinced of that either.

EDIT: Reading a few other posts in this thread, I learned that Mike's daughter was supposedly seen wearing the wedding ring. I do not recall UM saying that the "2nd" Mary Morris' wedding ring was missing (perhaps they simply failed to mention it?). The segment said the first Mary's ring was missing. I would like some clarification of this.

P.S. How do we know that the Police are the ones who requested forum members to not discuss this case? Is this a common thing? Why would the Police care if we discuss a segment from UM that is part of the public record?

Got into the UM mood again after a long hiatus and this is one of the cases I ran across recently on the video site owned by Google.

Are you talking about the same famous video website? If so, can you send me a link to this segment on that site? I have looked but can not find it and would like to re-watch this segment.

In either case, I am not sure I buy the "botched hit" theory to explain the death of the "first" Mary. I have a hard time believing that a hitman would get it wrong. Not only would he not get paid, but he is risking prison for nothing. No, I think a hitman is going to be sure he has the right person (photos, car make/model, license plate number, place of employment, etc). He isn't just going to scour the phonebook and look for the first Mary Morris he finds (remember Arnold in Terminator?).

Couple of things here. First, you could be absolutely right that they are not connected. The big red flag here is that after the murder of the first Mary Morris and prior to the murder of the second Mary Morris, a phone call came into the Houston Chronicle saying "they got the wrong Mary Morris.".

One thing I wonder, is if after the first murder, if someone associated with the second Mary Morris began to plan her murder quickly to make it look like a Terminator type killing spree?


12 minutes before her death, the 2nd Mary told her friend on the phone that she had encountered a "strange" or "creepy" man in the supermarket. I would imagine a professional killer (doing it for the money) would try to stay as discreet as possible. He isn't going to want to bring attention to himself. The fact she was creeped out by a strange man implies to me that the motive was not a professional hit but rather some psychopath/pervert/rapist.

She supposedly told her friend, Laurie Gemmell, on that phone call that this person that freaked her out was a friend of the co-worker she was having issues with. But, we aren't sure how accurate that really is.


However, it's still hard to get past the husband calling her phone and talking to "someone" for four minutes (this was after she was dead). He claimed he just "let it ring" but the Police (rightly) claim that it would not show up on the bill if the other party didn't answer. I know this to be the way the billing is done.

Agreed. He also did not and has not cooperated with police. From research, it looks as though he remarried, which isn't unusual. I'm curious how often, if ever, has he called the HCSO to find out the status of his wife's murder?

So, I suppose I am saying that I don't buy that the two are connected, but I do think there's a possibility Mary's husband had her killed for life insurance money (a common motive in spousal murders), though I am not 100% convinced of that either.

Mike Morris did not receive the life insurance from Mary's death. Their daughter, Katy, did when she turned 18.

EDIT: Reading a few other posts in this thread, I learned that Mike's daughter was supposedly seen wearing the wedding ring. I do not recall UM saying that the "2nd" Mary Morris' wedding ring was missing (perhaps they simply failed to mention it?). The segment said the first Mary's ring was missing. I would like some clarification of this.

You are correct. The segment did not go into this, but Koala (the co-worker of Mary's she was supposedly having some issues with, has posted on here that Katy was seen wearing her mother's ring a few months later. He has also said that through his "investigation", he has learned that Mary wore a fake wedding ring and kept her real ring at home. The real one is the one Katy supposedly has.

P.S. How do we know that the Police are the ones who requested forum members to not discuss this case? Is this a common thing? Why would the Police care if we discuss a segment from UM that is part of the public record?

You would have to ask Crystaldawn this. I wondered about this as well, but, given the nature of the past threads with Koala and members of Mary's family getting into it, I could see where they may ask, but I still find it odd from a law enforcement perspective as having an active discussion could only help things.

I'd be more willing to discount the "botched hit" theory and acknowledge the possibility that the murders were unconnected if LE was able to come up with any discernible motive for why the first Mary Morris was killed. While the second Mary Morris murder actually turned up suspects with plausible motives to kill her, there's NOTHING that points to another motive or possible suspect for the first Mary. By all accounts, Mary Lou Morris was a very well-liked person with no known enemies, so I just can't see why anyone would kill her and burn her body beyond recognition unless it had some sort of connection with the other murder.

I'd be more willing to discount the "botched hit" theory and acknowledge the possibility that the murders were unconnected if LE was able to come up with any discernible motive for why the first Mary Morris. While the second Mary Morris murder actually turned up suspects with plausible motives to kill her, there's NOTHING that points to another motive or possible suspect for the first Mary. By all accounts, Mary Lou Morris was a very well-liked person with no known enemies, so I just can't see why anyone would kill her and burn her body beyond recognition unless it had some sort of connection with the other murder.

I agree. Plus, I think people tend to assume that all hitmen are completely professional with advanced knowledge and skill. In reality, some hitters could be a random person or a friend of a friend.

I agree. Plus, I think people tend to assume that all hitmen are completely professional with advanced knowledge and skill. In reality, some hitters could be a random person or a friend of a friend.

Yep, the professional ones go for the million dollar contract and most likely to have a certain background and history.

Yep, the professional ones go for the million dollar contract and most likely to have a certain background and history.

Yep, exactly.

I'd be interested to know what site you are speaking of too. I recently went through over 75 DVR'ed Farina shows and still didn't see this segment. I was amazed that the same ones were showed over and over again. I'm currently working on getting the bizarre murders DVD set though.

I'd be more willing to discount the "botched hit" theory and acknowledge the possibility that the murders were unconnected if LE was able to come up with any discernible motive for why the first Mary Morris was killed. While the second Mary Morris murder actually turned up suspects with plausible motives to kill her, there's NOTHING that points to another motive or possible suspect for the first Mary. By all accounts, Mary Lou Morris was a very well-liked person with no known enemies, so I just can't see why anyone would kill her and burn her body beyond recognition unless it had some sort of connection with the other murder.

Well, unfortunately there are a lot of seemingly motiveless murders out there. I have read about (just recently) various muders where people were found in burned out cars. Some of them were within a close proximity to each other, but it seems they probably aren't connected. It's one of those things where when you look for a pattern you can often find it (yes I do agree that two Mary Morris's being killed within a few days of each other in the same city is a stranger than normal coincidence).

Also consider this is the Houston area, which is very high crime, especially back in the 90's. They had over 300 murders in that county alone that year.

Seems we have a lot of Danny Wheelers in this thread. You folks just don't believe in co -inci - dences.

.....


On another note... are you staying above water down there in TX, Hambone? Looked like it got pretty wet for awhile.


Yes. It didn't effect the area I'm in but I had a lot of friends that got hit hard by it.

Thanks for asking!!

Just re-watched this case. Here are a couple of things that stuck out to me:

- The wedding ring of the first Mary Morris was taken. Couple this with the fact that the wedding ring the second Mary Morris was wearing (real or fake) was also taken, furthers the theory that this was a mistaken hit.

- Both Mary Morris ladies DO look similar, however, they do not live close or work close at all. Being a local and knowing that you guys on this board are not, I can tell you that basically, the second Mary Morris lived in a town outside of west Houston but worked in Houston while the first Mary Morris lived and worked in east Houston. So it would have to be a very bungled job if a hitter was hired, unless the hitter killed the first Mary Morris on purpose to make this all look like a hit gone wrong when all is said a done.

- The police state that they had issues with Mike Morris' alibi. They do not elaborate. Given that his alibi was taking his daughter to the movies, it must have something to do with that. Maybe they simply can not confirm it since the only witness is his daughter and he would not allow her to speak to the police.

- The second Mary Morris may have been having some sort of extra marital affair. Keep in mind, I said "MAY". Mike said he confronted her and the family friend and they both denied it and he felt comfortable with their answers.

- Laurie Gemmell confirms the story of the phone call coming into the Houston Chronicle stating that someone said "they got the wrong Mary Morris the first time". Why is a regular citizen/friend of Mary, confirming this? Why didn't the police confirm this?

- The 911 tape couldn't have contained anything too incriminating. If it did, arrests would have been made by now. I feel like if Mary knew her attacker, she would have said his/her name during the call and police would have gone from there. This does not appear to be the case.

Just re-watched this case. Here are a couple of things that stuck out to me:

- The wedding ring of the first Mary Morris was taken. Couple this with the fact that the wedding ring the second Mary Morris was wearing (real or fake) was also taken, furthers the theory that this was a mistaken hit.

- Both Mary Morris ladies DO look similar, however, they do not live close or work close at all. Being a local and knowing that you guys on this board are not, I can tell you that basically, the second Mary Morris lived in a town outside of west Houston but worked in Houston while the first Mary Morris lived and worked in east Houston. So it would have to be a very bungled job if a hitter was hired, unless the hitter killed the first Mary Morris on purpose to make this all look like a hit gone wrong when all is said a done.

- The police state that they had issues with Mike Morris' alibi. They do not elaborate. Given that his alibi was taking his daughter to the movies, it must have something to do with that. Maybe they simply can not confirm it since the only witness is his daughter and he would not allow her to speak to the police.

- The second Mary Morris may have been having some sort of extra marital affair. Keep in mind, I said "MAY". Mike said he confronted her and the family friend and they both denied it and he felt comfortable with their answers.

- Laurie Gemmell confirms the story of the phone call coming into the Houston Chronicle stating that someone said "they got the wrong Mary Morris the first time". Why is a regular citizen/friend of Mary, confirming this? Why didn't the police confirm this?

- The 911 tape couldn't have contained anything too incriminating. If it did, arrests would have been made by now. I feel like if Mary knew her attacker, she would have said his/her name during the call and police would have gone from there. This does not appear to be the case.


I don't think it's a matter of th call being incriminating as it is another person being murdered.

So... Hambone is the hitman? Sounds plausible. *eyeroll*

I think you were on to something with this theory...

I don't know if I've mentioned this before and I hope I don't get any backlash from it, but I was contacted by Mary McGinnis Morris' coworker who is/was a suspect some time ago and he relayed to me that Mike Morris and Laurie Gemmell were under some kind of collusion and had Mary killed to continue their affair. I don't know how much truth is behind that, if any, but I always figured that Mike Morris was the one who was cheating and not Mary, he always seemed off to me and was trying too hard to cover up. When he said, "I had nothing to do with the arrangement of Mary's murder", I knew that flub was an admission of guilt.

I also feel that the alleged hitman had a prior criminal record, as evident of burning Mary Lou Morris' car to hide her identity and to destroy any evidence he might have left behind. I believe that Mary Lou Morris' murder was a mistaken hit, but how would the hitman had known her name was also Mary Morris, or was it just coincidental? I hope the Houston police really get down to the bottom of this case so that both Marys' families will know what happened, who done it and why it happened.

I don't know if I've mentioned this before and I hope I don't get any backlash from it, but I was contacted by Mary McGinnis Morris' coworker who is/was a suspect some time ago and he relayed to me that Mike Morris and Laurie Gemmell were under some kind of collusion and had Mary killed to continue their affair. I don't know how much truth is behind that, if any, but I always figured that Mike Morris was the one who was cheating and not Mary, he always seemed off to me and was trying too hard to cover up. When he said, "I had nothing to do with the arrangement of Mary's murder", I knew that flub was an admission of guilt.



I'm assuming the person who contacted you is Koala from the board. He has posted on here ad nauseam (even when he was told not to) and was finally removed from the board. I would have a hard time believing anything he says concerning this case but that's just my opinion.

Oh Lord, Koala. I forgot about him.

Oh Lord, Koala. I forgot about him.
The first thing I think of when I see this thread bumped....finally decided to open it. I didn't know he was banned.

I don't know if I've mentioned this before and I hope I don't get any backlash from it, but I was contacted by Mary McGinnis Morris' coworker who is/was a suspect some time ago and he relayed to me that Mike Morris and Laurie Gemmell were under some kind of collusion and had Mary killed to continue their affair. I don't know how much truth is behind that, if any, but I always figured that Mike Morris was the one who was cheating and not Mary, he always seemed off to me and was trying too hard to cover up. When he said, "I had nothing to do with the arrangement of Mary's murder", I knew that flub was an admission of guilt.

I also feel that the alleged hitman had a prior criminal record, as evident of burning Mary Lou Morris' car to hide her identity and to destroy any evidence he might have left behind. I believe that Mary Lou Morris' murder was a mistaken hit, but how would the hitman had known her name was also Mary Morris, or was it just coincidental? I hope the Houston police really get down to the bottom of this case so that both Marys' families will know what happened, who done it and why it happened.

I would be surprised if there was someone from this board that wasn't contacted by him.

I was contacted by the co-worker several years ago as well. I'd actually really like to do an episode about this case on my podcast, but I'm terrified that I'd never stop hearing from him.

I was contacted by the co-worker several years ago as well. I'd actually really like to do an episode about this case on my podcast, but I'm terrified that I'd never stop hearing from him.

That is a very real fear. I like discussing this case because I grew up in Houston. I guess he took my interest in talking about it to0 mean that I was directly involved in the case because he PM'd a few members of this board accusing me of being directly involved in the case.

I would be surprised if there was someone from this board that wasn't contacted by him.

No truer words were ever spoken. :lol:

Oh Lord, Koala. I forgot about him.

https://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/68195174.jpg

No truer words were ever spoken. :lol:


Allow me to introduce myself.

I'm assuming the person who contacted you is Koala from the board. He has posted on here ad nauseam (even when he was told not to) and was finally removed from the board. I would have a hard time believing anything he says concerning this case but that's just my opinion.

I have no idea, I was contacted by this guy via Facebook and not here. He urged me to push the Houston police into looking into the matter, but I didn't want to get involved for my own safety, although I kind of wish I had the nerve to because this case is unsolved and their families deserve answers and closure.

I have no idea, I was contacted by this guy via Facebook and not here. He urged me to push the Houston police into looking into the matter, but I didn't want to get involved for my own safety, although I kind of wish I had the nerve to because this case is unsolved and their families deserve answers and closure.

He's super-obsessed.

Which makes me think he had nothing to do with it. If you were guilty, I don't see an rational reason as to why and continue to harass people to try and bring this case into the "limelight".

He's super-obsessed.

Which makes me think he had nothing to do with it. If you were guilty, I don't see an rational reason as to why and continue to harass people to try and bring this case into the "limelight".

I agree. I highly doubt he had anything to do with this murder. I think he was super pissed that his name was ever brought up and due to that, he will never stop acting the way he does until this case is solved and his name is cleared.

I really can't say if it was the same man or not, but you have to explore ALL avenues if you have an unsolved case sitting in your lap. I wonder what the status is on the case as of 2016?

I was contacted by the co-worker several years ago as well. I'd actually really like to do an episode about this case on my podcast, but I'm terrified that I'd never stop hearing from him.

I hate that, because I'd love to hear your take on this one.

I really can't say if it was the same man or not, but you have to explore ALL avenues if you have an unsolved case sitting in your lap. I wonder what the status is on the case as of 2016?

It is still unsolved.

It is still unsolved.

I meant with the course of the investigation. Is it actively being pursued this year? I haven't heard any new information in quite some time.

I meant with the course of the investigation. Is it actively being pursued this year? I haven't heard any new information in quite some time.

No idea. I'm sure there are detective assigned to it, but it seems to have been dormant for quite a while now.

I don't think there's any possibility that Mary McGinnis Morris' cell phone rang for 4 minutes without going to VM or anything?! I'm sorry but I just don't buy it, I truly believe that Mike Morris talked to Mary's killer on her cell phone after Mary was already dead! And how would this person have known that Mary kept a gun in her car, unless they were informed of the fact? I would definitely love to hear the eerie phone call that she made to 911 after her abduction. Why would this person have let her make that phone call? It would increase their chances of being caught. And I don't believe it was said but when was Mary actually abducted? Because she apparently had called her friend Laurie after she had been around town shopping and said that she encountered someone that gave her "the creeps" so we have to assume the killer followed her and knew where she was going to be at the time. Apparently she was heading to work after her shopping trip, did she even make it to work? This was in broad daylight, did anyone see anything? Someone had to see this person commandeer Mary's car at some point in her day either on her way back from shopping or heading to work or heading home. It is so tragic that the wrong Mary had to die for absolutely no reason for a case of mistaken identity. I really hope this scum is caught some day because you just can't kill 2 people and get away with it!!

I don't think there's any possibility that Mary McGinnis Morris' cell phone rang for 4 minutes without going to VM or anything?! I'm sorry but I just don't buy it, I truly believe that Mike Morris talked to Mary's killer on her cell phone after Mary was already dead! And how would this person have known that Mary kept a gun in her car, unless they were informed of the fact?

I agree. Unless this was a random mugging gone bad (which I doubt), who attacks someone and kills them with their own weapon that's in their own car? Whoever killed Mary, knew about that gun and planned to use it to kill her.


I would definitely love to hear the eerie phone call that she made to 911 after her abduction. Why would this person have let her make that phone call? It would increase their chances of being caught.

I could be wrong, but I always assumed that she made the call either right before or during the struggle with the killer and the struggle continued through the phone call since the call contains the murder.

And I don't believe it was said but when was Mary actually abducted? Because she apparently had called her friend Laurie after she had been around town shopping and said that she encountered someone that gave her "the creeps" so we have to assume the killer followed her and knew where she was going to be at the time. Apparently she was heading to work after her shopping trip, did she even make it to work? This was in broad daylight, did anyone see anything? Someone had to see this person commandeer Mary's car at some point in her day either on her way back from shopping or heading to work or heading home. It is so tragic that the wrong Mary had to die for absolutely no reason for a case of mistaken identity. I really hope this scum is caught some day because you just can't kill 2 people and get away with it!!

I don't believe she was abducted. The place Mary was last at and the place her car was found with her inside, apparently were not too far apart. My guess is the car was stopped at the place it was found and the murder took place there. I do agree with you in that it was broad daylight, so it seems odd that no passerby's say anything.

Also, according to her friend Laurie, the person she saw that gave her the creeps was her co-workers friend that she had met at a work related party prior to that. The co-worker claims that Laurie made that part up to push the investigation toward him. Who knows....

If this was a planned hit orchestrated by Mike Morris, I've tried to reconcile why he would so stupid as to call the killer on Mary's cell phone. But then I read an article about this case which stated that the murder appeared to be a failed attempt to stage a suicide, which is why Mary's gun was used. I think that Mike had always planned to call the killer on Mary's cell phone and then fabricate a sob story about speaking to his wife and trying to talk her out of committing suicide. This would provide a logical explanation for why a four-minute call to Mary's cell showed up on phone records.

The only problem? Mary managed to make a terrified 911 call before the murder, which would totally rule out the possibility of her death being a suicide. So Mike now has no logical explanation for making four-minute call to Mary's cell after her 911 call, which is why he came up with this half-assed explanation about the phone ringing for four straight minutes.

If this was a planned hit orchestrated by Mike Morris, I've tried to reconcile why he would so stupid as to call the killer on Mary's cell phone. But then I read an article about this case which stated that the murder appeared to be a failed attempt to stage a suicide, which is why Mary's gun was used. I think that Mike had always planned to call the killer on Mary's cell phone and then fabricate a sob story about speaking to his wife and trying to talk her out of committing suicide. This would provide a logical explanation for why a four-minute call to Mary's cell showed up on phone records.

The only problem? Mary managed to make a terrified 911 call before the murder, which would totally rule out the possibility of her death being a suicide. So Mike now has no logical explanation for making four-minute call to Mary's cell after her 911 call, which is why he came up with this half-assed explanation about the phone ringing for four straight minutes.

YES. That makes perfect sense.

If this was a planned hit orchestrated by Mike Morris, I've tried to reconcile why he would so stupid as to call the killer on Mary's cell phone. But then I read an article about this case which stated that the murder appeared to be a failed attempt to stage a suicide, which is why Mary's gun was used. I think that Mike had always planned to call the killer on Mary's cell phone and then fabricate a sob story about speaking to his wife and trying to talk her out of committing suicide. This would provide a logical explanation for why a four-minute call to Mary's cell showed up on phone records.

The only problem? Mary managed to make a terrified 911 call before the murder, which would totally rule out the possibility of her death being a suicide. So Mike now has no logical explanation for making four-minute call to Mary's cell after her 911 call, which is why he came up with this half-assed explanation about the phone ringing for four straight minutes.

Oh wow. This makes PERFECT sense. Please try to dig up a link to that article and post it here. I'd love to read it.

Oh wow. This makes PERFECT sense. Please try to dig up a link to that article and post it here. I'd love to read it.

No problem:
http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Two-Mary-Morris-slayings-remain-unsolved-1637059.php

Here is the exact quote from one of the investigators...

"Because the gun was left on the scene it looked like a suicide," Parker said, "but this was definitely not a suicide."

If the first Mary Morris' murder was a botched hit, it's my guess whoever was responsible wanted the second Mary's death to look like a suicide, so no one would think the deaths were connected.

No problem:
http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Two-Mary-Morris-slayings-remain-unsolved-1637059.php

Here is the exact quote from one of the investigators...



If the first Mary Morris' murder was a botched hit, it's my guess whoever was responsible wanted the second Mary's death to look like a suicide, so no one would think the deaths were connected.

Oh ok, yea I read that article. I thought you originally meant that someone working on the case actually presented that as a theory they are working on. My mistake for the miscommunication.

I wonder though, what about THAT scene looked like a suicide. From all accounts, she was savagely beaten and then shot. Simply having her gun at the scene and used as the murder weapon, isn't enough for a police officer to think it looked like a suicide.

OK I apologize for this because I hate when people do it, but I just don't have time to read the whole thread right now.

If this was a planned hit by the 2nd Mary's husband, how on Earth did the hit man end up with the wrong Mary Morris? Wouldn't he have had info on where she would be, what she'd been driving, etc? And so then was the gun in her car the plan B scenario, since the first Mary wouldn't have had a gun. I just don't understand how someone would hire a hit man and only give him the name, leaving him to his own devices to find her with only that information. There must be something I'm missing. I'm trying to work my way through this thread, but if someone could explain the circumstances of the first Mary's murder and how it could have been a hit meant for the other one I'd appreciate it.

I do tend to agree that they were somehow related, even in a city that size, the chances of two women with the same name being murdered within such a short time span has to be astronomical, way too weird to be a coincidence. I wish I could find some information on whether anything like that has happened before. I can't even see it happening with a name like James Smith, the most common American name.

If this was a planned hit by the 2nd Mary's husband, how on Earth did the hit man end up with the wrong Mary Morris? Wouldn't he have had info on where she would be, what she'd been driving, etc? And so then was the gun in her car the plan B scenario, since the first Mary wouldn't have had a gun. I just don't understand how someone would hire a hit man and only give him the name, leaving him to his own devices to find her with only that information. There must be something I'm missing. I'm trying to work my way through this thread, but if someone could explain the circumstances of the first Mary's murder and how it could have been a hit meant for the other one I'd appreciate it.

The idea of a contract killer murdering the wrong person after they were hired by the victim's own husband is the most farfetched part of this scenario, but some people in this thread have theorized that Mike could have hired the killer through an intermediary and never actually met him face-to-face. If the hitman was from out of town and not particularly competent at their job, then I guess it's possible he could have simply looked up Mary Morris' name in the phone book or something and targeted the wrong person.


I think the murder of the first Mary Morris was always meant to be a straightforward hit and never intended to look like a suicide, so the killer wasn't too concerned about using the victim's gun to commit the crime. It was only after they realized they'd killed the wrong person that they decided to go through with Plan B and attempted to fabricate a suicide scenario for Mary Morris#2.

I think the murder of the first Mary Morris was always meant to be a straightforward hit and never intended to look like a suicide, so the killer wasn't too concerned about using the victim's gun to commit the crime. It was only after they realized they'd killed the wrong person that they decided to go through with Plan B and attempted to fabricate a suicide scenario for Mary Morris#2.

You bring up an interesting scenario, Robin. If it was a case of mistaken identity by a hitter and he was supposed to use a gun in the victims car to kill her with it to make it look like a suicide. I don't believe the first Mary had a gun in her car. The killer likely had already gained access to the car and noticed there wasn't a gun so he figured he had no choice but to kill her since she had already seen him.

I wonder if both Mary's drove similar cars? I assume that if this was a hitter, he'd at least have the make and model of her vehicle.

Thanks Robin.

So I finally made it through this thread, and I'm still not sure what happened, and I realized we're all in the same boat lol.

I did kind of like the idea that was brought up that maybe the first MM was murdered, just a random crime in a high crime city. Then whoever wanted MM2 dead got the idea to say it was the wrong one and take the opportunity to do something to her. It would definitely make things confusing as we've seen. But then would that person want to call attention to the fact that MM2 was the real target? That seems kind of stupid too, especially if they were going to make it look like a suicide, that call was confirming it wasn't.

This case is just baffling. Maybe it is just a coincidence. I just can't imagine someone being hired to kill someone and only being given a name, and looking it up in the phone book. Plus there had to have been more than one MM in the phone book. Like I wrote before, even with an intermediate person you'd think they'd have given car info, and hopefully a picture. Also then there's the issue with where she would be. If the first one was a mistaken hit, how did they find MM1? You'd assume, again, even with an intermediate person that they would give them some idea of where she would be at a few different times. It doesn't sound like they were anywhere near each other so how did the person wind up in the area where MM1 was to accidentally kill her instead of MM2? Maybe this is just the strangest coincidence ever.

You bring up an interesting scenario, Robin. If it was a case of mistaken identity by a hitter and he was supposed to use a gun in the victims car to kill her with it to make it look like a suicide. I don't believe the first Mary had a gun in her car. The killer likely had already gained access to the car and noticed there wasn't a gun so he figured he had no choice but to kill her since she had already seen him.

I wonder if both Mary's drove similar cars? I assume that if this was a hitter, he'd at least have the make and model of her vehicle.

That's a good point. It is possible they always planned to make Mary's death look like a suicide from the beginning, but once the killer crossed paths with the wrong Mary, he still had to killer her, no matter what. IIRC, the first Mary's body was so badly burned that they couldn't even determine the actual cause of death, so the killer obviously went to great lengths to cover their tracks. However, I'm not so sure the killer would have bothered to take the first Mary's wedding ring if they knew they'd killed the wrong person.

I could be wrong but it is very possible that the two murders are not related. Houston is such a huge area and full of violent crime. Could UM have seeked this out to add to the mystique? With that said I agree they could be related too. I honestly have a lot more questions than ideas on this one. I think by the time I became a member here this discussion was off limits.

The idea of a contract killer murdering the wrong person after they were hired by the victim's own husband is the most farfetched part of this scenario, but some people in this thread have theorized that Mike could have hired the killer through an intermediary and never actually met him face-to-face. If the hitman was from out of town and not particularly competent at their job, then I guess it's possible he could have simply looked up Mary Morris' name in the phone book or something and targeted the wrong person.


I think the murder of the first Mary Morris was always meant to be a straightforward hit and never intended to look like a suicide, so the killer wasn't too concerned about using the victim's gun to commit the crime. It was only after they realized they'd killed the wrong person that they decided to go through with Plan B and attempted to fabricate a suicide scenario for Mary Morris#2.

This is exactly what I think happened.

In articles I have read on the case it was said that Mary Morris #1 was a bank loan officer and police talked to people who knew her and said she had no enemies that they knew of; there was just no reason for that woman to die, I think she was in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong name! How would her killer have found the first Mary to kill her? Apparently she never arrived to her job at the bank, but was confirmed by video surveillance cameras at a gas station, so I'm guessing she encountered her killer at or after the gas station, was she followed? Also when Mary #1's body was found in her burnt out car it was discovered that her purse was stolen by her killer as well! Mary's husband received calls from someone in the days after her death (I don't know if they were male or female) from the person who may have been her killer. He didn't know who it was but told this person that Mary wasn't home, why would this person have called Mary's residence if they knew she was dead? Were they fishing for information? It seems to me very odd that he would do that considering a lot of calls can be traced or viewed on caller ID. Her purse was located about 30 miles away in a dumpster of a convenience store, someone found it and took it home and used mary's phone card to make calls because her husband got a bill for $1000 in charges that were made on the card. When the police located this person they said that they found mary's purse and threw it's contents away, I'm not sure I believe this, why would this person not have turned it in? No one would just throw away a perfectly good purse with all their belongings still in it! Something is definitely fishy and a piece of the puzzle is missing somewhere, I hope some day we find the answers.

The idea of a contract killer murdering the wrong person after they were hired by the victim's own husband is the most farfetched part of this scenario, but some people in this thread have theorized that Mike could have hired the killer through an intermediary and never actually met him face-to-face. If the hitman was from out of town and not particularly competent at their job, then I guess it's possible he could have simply looked up Mary Morris' name in the phone book or something and targeted the wrong person..

Hey it can happen.

See here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wNTIPaBbPI

I always think of this scene when I think of this case.

The more these scenarios come up, the more twisted and confusing this case becomes. If Mike Morris did hire a hitman, how was he able to pay him? I also wonder why it was necessary to burn Mary Lou Morris in her car after killing her, and did they ever say how she was killed? Did the killer make physical contact with Mary Lou Morris and had to burn the car so none of his DNA would be found? Most hitmen don't make physical contact with their victims, they just shoot them or use some other non-contact means (poison, bombs, etc). The hitman sounds like an amateur and fumbled up the hit and had to cover up the first murder by burning the car with Mary Lou Morris inside before killing the right Mary (Mary McGinnis Morris), that being if the first Mary Morris was also killed by the same person who killed the second Mary Morris.

I also question why Mary McGinnis Morris had to be brutally beaten before she was shot. Did she see her killer approach her and tried to phone for help or get away, in which the killer had to struggle with her and assault her before firing the fatal shot into her head? I believe that latter to be true, as they did say the phone call covered the attack on Mary, but has never been released to the public. So much unnecessary carnage.

In articles I have read on the case it was said that Mary Morris #1 was a bank loan officer and police talked to people who knew her and said she had no enemies that they knew of; there was just no reason for that woman to die, I think she was in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong name! How would her killer have found the first Mary to kill her? Apparently she never arrived to her job at the bank, but was confirmed by video surveillance cameras at a gas station, so I'm guessing she encountered her killer at or after the gas station, was she followed?

Interesting tidbit on the gas station part. If this was in the segment, then I had forgotten about it. But, if she did go to a gas station, it is possible she ran into her killer there and that she was just the victim of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. As much as we all discuss this being a "mistaken hit", these two did not live anywhere near each other. The hitter would have to be completely stupid to go to the wrong town, off the wrong highway, to kill the wrong Mary, driving the wrong vehicle, who worked at the wrong place. You have to assume that if this was a mistaken hit, whoever hired the hitter had to give him multiple pieces of information about his intended target instead of just the name, "Mary Morris".

Assuming the first Mary was a botched hit, that could indicate why her car was burned beyond recognition. If Mike Morris did in fact hire someone to kill his wife (and use her gun to make it look like a suicide), the killer would have then discovered (in the middle of killing the first Mary) that there was no gun in the car, so he had to kill her differently and then destroy all evidence. That's the only reason I could see torching the car after killing her. The killer, assuming it was Mary McGinniss-Morris he was killing, could not make her death look like a suicide because Mary Morris did not have a gun in her car.

I haven't gone through this entire thread so let me apologize ahead of time. But has there been an in depth look at Mike Morris and his background put out there for public viewing? I know Mike and Mary moved to the Houston area for her job. He was out of work for the 2 years they were living in Houston when she was murdered. If you go down the road of the hitman angle, where would Mike come into contact with one? Its incredibly hard to find a hitman that will carry out the crime and not turn you into the police and or blackmail you. Plenty of cases out there where someone thought they found a hitman only to be arrested for attempted murder or shaken down for large sums of money.

What were Mikes connections to the underworld and where would he have gotten enough cash for an upfront payment? Was Mike involved with an outlaw biker gang at all in his past? I haven't been able to find any reliable sources on his background leading up to the murder of his wife.

The idea of a contract killer murdering the wrong person after they were hired by the victim's own husband is the most farfetched part of this scenario, but some people in this thread have theorized that Mike could have hired the killer through an intermediary and never actually met him face-to-face. If the hitman was from out of town and not particularly competent at their job, then I guess it's possible he could have simply looked up Mary Morris' name in the phone book or something and targeted the wrong person.


I think the murder of the first Mary Morris was always meant to be a straightforward hit and never intended to look like a suicide, so the killer wasn't too concerned about using the victim's gun to commit the crime. It was only after they realized they'd killed the wrong person that they decided to go through with Plan B and attempted to fabricate a suicide scenario for Mary Morris#2.

Mary Morris #2 was beaten before she was killed. I think that rules out a staged suicide theory.

I don't think they are related.

Do we know what happened to Mary's cell phone? Was it found at the crime scene?

Mary Morris #2 was beaten before she was killed. I think that rules out a staged suicide theory.

I don't think they are related.

I've never been sure about the mistaken hit theory - other than similar names, they had no ties, and they didn't live near each other. The "wrong Mary Morris" call after Henderson-Morris' murder lent itself to the hitman screwup theory, but it might have been a red herring.

It's possible that Henderson-Morris was killed in a random carjacking/attack (with the vehicle being incinerated to destroy fingerprints or other evidence). The guy who was making crank calls to her husband's unlisted number was traced back to a nearby apartment complex, but there's no further information about the him or how he had accessed the number.

Random theory that I just had after listening to RobinW's recent episode about this case: what if the first Mary Morris was the intended target all along? I know every piece of information about this case says she had no known enemies, but consider:

-Her body and her car were burned beyond recognition. No cause of death was able to be determined.
-The entire focus of every outlet that has profiled this case has been on Mary McGinnis and potential suspects that would want her dead. We know next to nothing about Mary Lou's background other than an ex-husband, husband, and daughter.
-The phone call shortly after she was murdered about getting "the wrong Mary Morris".
-Her purse was taken from the vehicle and later dumped. Her wedding ring was also taken but never found.
-She was killed shortly after leaving her house for work that morning.

I know it's unlikely, but it seems like most of the attention on this case has been placed on Mary McGinnis and her background, when, IMO, it's likely that Mary Lou could have been the intended target all along. What better way to throw off the trail of an investigation than to murder Mary Lou, phone a newspaper about the "wrong Mary Morris", and then kill another woman with the same name in the same city? And why burn her body beyond recognition, but sloppily try to make Mary McGinnis's murder look like a suicide? If Mary Lou was the victim of a botched hit, wouldn't the hitman have known right away that he got the wrong Mary Morris after taking her purse? Why take her wedding ring too? My other main issue with the botched hit where Mary McGinnis was the intended target is that the 2 main suspects: Duane Young and Mike Morris, both had access to pictures of Mary McGinnis. You would think they would have shown a hitman a picture of the correct Mary Morris. Mary Lou was found dead roughly 3 and a half hours after leaving for work that morning. Meaning her killer was waiting for her, or knew her routine. Which also supports the theory that whoever killed her intended on doing so.

Random theory that I just had after listening to RobinW's recent episode about this case: what if the first Mary Morris was the intended target all along? I know every piece of information about this case says she had no known enemies, but consider:

-Her body and her car were burned beyond recognition. No cause of death was able to be determined.
-The entire focus of every outlet that has profiled this case has been on Mary McGinnis and potential suspects that would want her dead. We know next to nothing about Mary Lou's background other than an ex-husband, husband, and daughter.
-The phone call shortly after she was murdered about getting "the wrong Mary Morris".
-Her purse was taken from the vehicle and later dumped. Her wedding ring was also taken but never found.
-She was killed shortly after leaving her house for work that morning.

I know it's unlikely, but it seems like most of the attention on this case has been placed on Mary McGinnis and her background, when, IMO, it's likely that Mary Lou could have been the intended target all along. What better way to throw off the trail of an investigation than to murder Mary Lou, phone a newspaper about the "wrong Mary Morris", and then kill another woman with the same name in the same city? And why burn her body beyond recognition, but sloppily try to make Mary McGinnis's murder look like a suicide? If Mary Lou was the victim of a botched hit, wouldn't the hitman have known right away that he got the wrong Mary Morris after taking her purse? Why take her wedding ring too? My other main issue with the botched hit where Mary McGinnis was the intended target is that the 2 main suspects: Duane Young and Mike Morris, both had access to pictures of Mary McGinnis. You would think they would have shown a hitman a picture of the correct Mary Morris. Mary Lou was found dead roughly 3 and a half hours after leaving for work that morning. Meaning her killer was waiting for her, or knew her routine. Which also supports the theory that whoever killed her intended on doing so.

I've actually had quite a few people suggest this idea to me since the episode was released yesterday. The thing that's always bothered me is that if Mary Henderson Morris was the intended target all along and the murder of Mary McGinnis Morris was just a diversion to throw off the investigation, then the perpetrator got EXTREMELY lucky. Unless they somehow had knowledge of Mary McGinnis' personal life, they got a major break when they selected another person named Mary Morris who just happened to have suspects in her life with plausible motives to her. She had...

-a hostile coworker who allegedly rearranged items in Mary's office and wrote a threatening message on his desk calendar the SAME DAY Mary Henderson was murdered before he was subsequently fired
-a troubled marriage to a jealous husband who accused her of having an affair and had a substantial life insurance policy on her
-a husband who made a suspicious-looking four-minute call to her cell phone after her presumed murder which has never been satisfactorily explained

So of course, with all that, you can see why so much of the investigation's focus is going to be on the second Mary Morris. It would be something if all those elements surrounding Mary McGinnis' death were nothing more than red herrings, but it seems like too many coincidences to me. But if Mary McGinnis did not have so much drama going on in her personal life at the time she was killed, then perhaps people would be looking at Mary Henderson's murder a lot differently.

It's hard for me to buy the police's opinion that the murders have no connection whatsoever.

It's kind of like the investigators in Montana who said they don't believe Father Kerrigan's abduction, torture and murder is tied to the very long list of children he sexually abused over the course of many years.

Coincidences are not impossible. But still not likely.

So of course, with all that, you can see why so much of the investigation's focus is going to be on the second Mary Morris. It would be something if all those elements surrounding Mary McGinnis' death were nothing more than red herrings, but it seems like too many coincidences to me. But if Mary McGinnis did not have so much drama going on in her personal life at the time she was killed, then perhaps people would be looking at Mary Henderson's murder a lot differently.

I think it's possible that if Mary Henderson was the target, that by killing a 2nd Mary Morris was simply to throw off the investigators as some nutjob intent on murdering people with the same name (a la Terminator). They could have simply lucked into the fact that they got one had a rocky personal life at the time. I mean look at the Sammy Wheeler and Eric Tamiyasu murders. They had "baggage" in their lives too, as well as 3 potential suspects from their personal lives. I think there are more seemingly "regluar people" out there who if something mysterious were to happen to them (murder, disappearance), there are more skeletons in their closets that could come out and make people suspicious of those in their personal lives.

I've actually had quite a few people suggest this idea to me since the episode was released yesterday. The thing that's always bothered me is that if Mary Henderson Morris was the intended target all along and the murder of Mary McGinnis Morris was just a diversion to throw off the investigation, then the perpetrator got EXTREMELY lucky. Unless they somehow had knowledge of Mary McGinnis' personal life, they got a major break when they selected another person named Mary Morris who just happened to have suspects in her life with plausible motives to her. She had...

-a hostile coworker who allegedly rearranged items in Mary's office and wrote a threatening message on his desk calendar the SAME DAY Mary Henderson was murdered before he was subsequently fired
-a troubled marriage to a jealous husband who accused her of having an affair and had a substantial life insurance policy on her
-a husband who made a suspicious-looking four-minute call to her cell phone after her presumed murder which has never been satisfactorily explained

So of course, with all that, you can see why so much of the investigation's focus is going to be on the second Mary Morris. It would be something if all those elements surrounding Mary McGinnis' death were nothing more than red herrings, but it seems like too many coincidences to me. But if Mary McGinnis did not have so much drama going on in her personal life at the time she was killed, then perhaps people would be looking at Mary Henderson's murder a lot differently.


Has the episode been removed? I listened to it and I don’t see it anymore.

The Mary Henderson murder has alway really bugged me, and one of the things that bugs me is: with no cause of death determined, how can they say for sure it was murder at all?

If instead it was some freak accident or (less likely) some weird suicide, it would explain the total lack of suspects or apparent motive.

The Mary Henderson murder has alway really bugged me, and one of the things that bugs me is: with no cause of death determined, how can they say for sure it was murder at all?

If instead it was some freak accident or (less likely) some weird suicide, it would explain the total lack of suspects or apparent motive.

That would've been an intense unexplained burn a la Aileen Conway--who at least appeared to have crashed into a guardrail. I'd also have to wonder what became of her wedding ring.

For me, this is one of those limited cases in which I agree the "segment narrative" is what happened. I think they got the wrong Mary Morris the first time. Whether it's the coworker or the spouse, I haven't yet decided. I lean toward Mike Morris, personally.

Ok, so I watched this one again yesterday and listened to it on the way home from work (don't judge--I know at least some of y'all out here doing the same thing). It's been several months since I last watched the segment, and I had forgotten how solid the entire episode actually is (aside from that throw-away bit about the "alternative healer" from Russia): the Mary Morris murders, Leonard Dirickson, and Lita McClinton Sullivan segments are all included in it.

I know only yesterday I said Mike Morris is probably the most suspicious, but I watched and listened to the segment a little more closely both times. I got a different impression.

It seems to me a number of nuances come into play regarding the investigation into Mike Morris:

1. Law enforcement starts with the spouse. Statistically, it's quite often the spouse. He's a logical connection if investigators can make it.

2. One investigator in particular seemed perturbed that Mike Morris would not A) meet with them without an attorney, B) would not take a polygraph test, and C) would not allow the couples' daughter to be questioned. I find Mike's explanation that he was taking legal advice on at least the first two items to be reasonable and plausible. It's certainly probably true that most individuals law enforcement question often "don't bring/need an attorney", simply because they trust that the police will act in good faith, are ignorant of their right to have counsel present (even when not in custody), or both. It is unusual, though perhaps not ill-advised, and I personally think this may have prejudiced at least Det. Kuhlman of Harris Co against Mike.

I don't have kids, so I can't speak from a parent's perspective, but I can envision a situation in which someone watching their child absorb the shock of her mother's death would be prickly about the police asking them questions. I might feel the same way.

3. It's unclear how much investigators knew or understood about the way cell phone calls were logged or billed with that particular provider in the early aughts. I would be interested to know if they ever did consult with the Morris' provider to determine exactly how those calls were logged--did an "unreasonable" amount of ring time become a completed call, as posited earlier in this thread? Additionally--and I'll admit I haven't slowed the playback or paused the video to look--but there appears to have been a two-minute phone call that was placed just after Mary's call to 911 and just before the contentious four-minute phone call. Was this the emergency services operator calling back, or something else? How much of this did the investigators actually understand?

4. The only real apparent motive for Mike Morris to have killed Mary is a life insurance policy. Apparently, at the time Mike was having difficulty finding work since the family's move to Texas. A financial motive seems a little tenuous, provided Mary's occupation as a nurse practitioner in a state in which nurses--especially advanced practice nurses--enjoy healthy salaries. Unless Mike had some sort of extreme vice such as compulsive gambling or the like, I just don't see why he would have hired a hitman to kill his wife for the insurance payout.

I know only yesterday I said Mike Morris is probably the most suspicious, but I watched and listened to the segment a little more closely both times. I got a different impression.

I pretty much agree with your entire assessment. In particular #2: I used to see that as highly suspicious until I had my own run in with law enforcement (traffic, not criminal). Simply put, my experiences have shown me some cops and prosectuors are pathological liars who will twist innocent words into something completely different. I would also never take a polygraph as they are pseudoscientific nonsense and someone with severe anxiety (like me) would probably fail anyway. I also agree with your cell phone observations: where is the expert on the subject? It certainly isn't the police!

I get the impression either Mike is the luckiest AND dumbest criminal in UM history or the simpler answer: while they might not have had the dream relationship he is definitely no murderer. I never once got the slightly impression he had anything to do with both murders, either as the perpetrator or the one who hired the hitman.

Has the episode been removed? I listened to it and I don’t see it anymore.

It's still on Spotify.

It's still on Spotify.

Don’t have it on my app.

Don’t have it on my app.

I just checked and it's on the Apple podcast app. Go to the main feed for TTWC and the episode is there.

I just checked and it's on the Apple podcast app. Go to the main feed for TTWC and the episode is there.



Found it, you’re right. Here I was hoping for a conspiracy surrounding the police department removing the podcast for being about the case. Thank you!

One investigator in particular seemed perturbed that Mike Morris would not A) meet with them without an attorney, B) would not take a polygraph test, and C) would not allow the couples' daughter to be questioned. I find Mike's explanation that he was taking legal advice on at least the first two items to be reasonable and plausible. It's certainly probably true that most individuals law enforcement question often "don't bring/need an attorney", simply because they trust that the police will act in good faith, are ignorant of their right to have counsel present (even when not in custody), or both. It is unusual, though perhaps not ill-advised, and I personally think this may have prejudiced at least Det. Kuhlman of Harris Co against Mike.

Agreed. I've never held this against Mike Morris and think this was the most believable thing he said in the segment.

I don't have kids, so I can't speak from a parent's perspective, but I can envision a situation in which someone watching their child absorb the shock of her mother's death would be prickly about the police asking them questions. I might feel the same way.

Absolutely agree with him. You do not want your child questioned without you being present no matter what the issue.

It's unclear how much investigators knew or understood about the way cell phone calls were logged or billed with that particular provider in the early aughts. I would be interested to know if they ever did consult with the Morris' provider to determine exactly how those calls were logged--did an "unreasonable" amount of ring time become a completed call, as posited earlier in this thread? Additionally--and I'll admit I haven't slowed the playback or paused the video to look--but there appears to have been a two-minute phone call that was placed just after Mary's call to 911 and just before the contentious four-minute phone call. Was this the emergency services operator calling back, or something else? How much of this did the investigators actually understand?

Didn't the detective say that the cell phone company told them that this call was completed? All of the calls after her call to 911 are incoming, and they all have a total of 2 minutes. The only phone call that isn't 2 minutes, is the 4 minute Mike Morris phone call. The 2 minute calls were probably people trying to reach her. I looks like the first call after the 911 call is 3 minutes later, so yes you're probably right that it's the dispatcher calling back. From my understanding, the unanswered calls logged at 2 minutes. The segment implies that if the call was unanswered, it wouldn't have shown up on the bill: which makes zero sense because there are several calls on the bill after the 911 call. I think the length of the call was what raised red flags to the detectives.

The only real apparent motive for Mike Morris to have killed Mary is a life insurance policy. Apparently, at the time Mike was having difficulty finding work since the family's move to Texas. A financial motive seems a little tenuous, provided Mary's occupation as a nurse practitioner in a state in which nurses--especially advanced practice nurses--enjoy healthy salaries. Unless Mike had some sort of extreme vice such as compulsive gambling or the like, I just don't see why he would have hired a hitman to kill his wife for the insurance payout.

He also thought that his wife was having an affair with a family friend. I also think that their marriage was strained because of their move from West Virginia to Texas (for Mary's job).

Hey everyone. Sure you all caught Robin's wonderful episode about the case on The Trail Went Cold recently. My podcast, Criminology will be dropping an episode about the case tonight. Mary Henderson Morris's Daughter, Marilyn joined us to give us a behind the scenes tour of how things unfolded, and how it affected her. She also talks about the bizarre parts of the case, and shares her own suspicions. You can listen to the episode (ep50, The Mary Morris Murders)when it's out wherever you listen to podcasts, or via this link-
https://art19.com/shows/criminology

Hey everyone. Sure you all caught Robin's wonderful episode about the case on The Trail Went Cold recently. My podcast, Criminology will be dropping an episode about the case tonight. Mary Henderson Morris's Daughter, Marilyn joined us to give us a behind the scenes tour of how things unfolded, and how it affected her. She also talks about the bizarre parts of the case, and shares her own suspicions. You can listen to the episode (ep50, The Mary Morris Murders)when it's out wherever you listen to podcasts, or via this link-
https://art19.com/shows/criminology

I really enjoyed the podcast morf13! It was great to hear the 1st Mary's daughter talk about the case and was very surprising what she had to say about her stepfather.

I really enjoyed the podcast morf13! It was great to hear the 1st Mary's daughter talk about the case and was very surprising what she had to say about her stepfather.

Thanks, I agree it was eye opening

Ok, so I watched this one again yesterday and listened to it on the way home from work (don't judge--I know at least some of y'all out here doing the same thing). It's been several months since I last watched the segment, and I had forgotten how solid the entire episode actually is (aside from that throw-away bit about the "alternative healer" from Russia): the Mary Morris murders, Leonard Dirickson, and Lita McClinton Sullivan segments are all included in it.

I know only yesterday I said Mike Morris is probably the most suspicious, but I watched and listened to the segment a little more closely both times. I got a different impression.

It seems to me a number of nuances come into play regarding the investigation into Mike Morris:

1. Law enforcement starts with the spouse. Statistically, it's quite often the spouse. He's a logical connection if investigators can make it.

2. One investigator in particular seemed perturbed that Mike Morris would not A) meet with them without an attorney, B) would not take a polygraph test, and C) would not allow the couples' daughter to be questioned. I find Mike's explanation that he was taking legal advice on at least the first two items to be reasonable and plausible. It's certainly probably true that most individuals law enforcement question often "don't bring/need an attorney", simply because they trust that the police will act in good faith, are ignorant of their right to have counsel present (even when not in custody), or both. It is unusual, though perhaps not ill-advised, and I personally think this may have prejudiced at least Det. Kuhlman of Harris Co against Mike.

I don't have kids, so I can't speak from a parent's perspective, but I can envision a situation in which someone watching their child absorb the shock of her mother's death would be prickly about the police asking them questions. I might feel the same way.

3. It's unclear how much investigators knew or understood about the way cell phone calls were logged or billed with that particular provider in the early aughts. I would be interested to know if they ever did consult with the Morris' provider to determine exactly how those calls were logged--did an "unreasonable" amount of ring time become a completed call, as posited earlier in this thread? Additionally--and I'll admit I haven't slowed the playback or paused the video to look--but there appears to have been a two-minute phone call that was placed just after Mary's call to 911 and just before the contentious four-minute phone call. Was this the emergency services operator calling back, or something else? How much of this did the investigators actually understand?

4. The only real apparent motive for Mike Morris to have killed Mary is a life insurance policy. Apparently, at the time Mike was having difficulty finding work since the family's move to Texas. A financial motive seems a little tenuous, provided Mary's occupation as a nurse practitioner in a state in which nurses--especially advanced practice nurses--enjoy healthy salaries. Unless Mike had some sort of extreme vice such as compulsive gambling or the like, I just don't see why he would have hired a hitman to kill his wife for the insurance payout.

Interesting, but I am confident in the "completed call" showing on the bill, and am unimpressed with Mike's answer.

Sorry so late but I just recently came across these. I saw and heard about this case a while back but didn’t think much into it but recent podcast and other things have sparked my interest. I have some questions that I think are real important and I think some things have not been addressed.
First the clinic where Mary worked and where the supposed death threat was left and when her pictures were turned over or rearranged was there ever any camera footage or anything that showed who wrote it or who may have been back there? Nothing was ever said about the latest on that. Also did the police ever look into everyone who had access to the clinic and could have went back there? I think this would have been a real important detail.
Another question I have is was camera footage ever viewed in the drug store of the person who Mary said was giving her the creeps? Did they see her in there too? If this stuff was viewed or investigated there has been nothing said on it. Maybe it was and is just not being said. We’re there any receipts or groceries or anything in the car that was purchased in any of the places she was before the murder happen? I think these questions are important and very interesting to have answers. Seems like some big things were missed or are just not being talked about. I’m just curious. I think those things would help possibly.

Sorry so late but I just recently came across these. I saw and heard about this case a while back but didn’t think much into it but recent podcast and other things have sparked my interest. I have some questions that I think are real important and I think some things have not been addressed.
First the clinic where Mary worked and where the supposed death threat was left and when her pictures were turned over or rearranged was there ever any camera footage or anything that showed who wrote it or who may have been back there? Nothing was ever said about the latest on that. Also did the police ever look into everyone who had access to the clinic and could have went back there? I think this would have been a real important detail.
Another question I have is was camera footage ever viewed in the drug store of the person who Mary said was giving her the creeps? Did they see her in there too? If this stuff was viewed or investigated there has been nothing said on it. Maybe it was and is just not being said. We’re there any receipts or groceries or anything in the car that was purchased in any of the places she was before the murder happen? I think these questions are important and very interesting to have answers. Seems like some big things were missed or are just not being talked about. I’m just curious. I think those things would help possibly.

Hmm, anyone care to give an over/under on this poster being Koala making a comeback?

Sorry so late but I just recently came across these. I saw and heard about this case a while back but didn’t think much into it but recent podcast and other things have sparked my interest. I have some questions that I think are real important and I think some things have not been addressed.
First the clinic where Mary worked and where the supposed death threat was left and when her pictures were turned over or rearranged was there ever any camera footage or anything that showed who wrote it or who may have been back there? Nothing was ever said about the latest on that. Also did the police ever look into everyone who had access to the clinic and could have went back there? I think this would have been a real important detail.
Another question I have is was camera footage ever viewed in the drug store of the person who Mary said was giving her the creeps? Did they see her in there too? If this stuff was viewed or investigated there has been nothing said on it. Maybe it was and is just not being said. We’re there any receipts or groceries or anything in the car that was purchased in any of the places she was before the murder happen? I think these questions are important and very interesting to have answers. Seems like some big things were missed or are just not being talked about. I’m just curious. I think those things would help possibly.

Definitely not Koala. It’s funny though that someone thinks that. I have a lot of questions.