I recently read the most interesting book yet about the Zodiac. It's called This is the Zodiac Speaking. I know about as much as anyone about this case and was wondering if anyone had anything at all interesting to say about it. Thanks?

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41gDGmAE1xL._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

(picture of book cover with author names)

And here's the most intelligent youtube comment I've ever seen:

"Overrated? Now that's just simply asinine. 'Zodiac' executed the perfect social engineering piece since the Hegelian dialect. Law enforcement looked at their jobs as private fiefdoms, thusly resulting in congress enforced dissemination of information policies and 'out with the old guard - in with the new', whilst Zodiac terrorised SF, peoples attitudes changed to how they conducted their lives, out went the columbia's finest & disco music, more spent on and attitude shift towards self-security and being mindful of their surroundings and those they abdicated responsibility in 'protecting' them like a parent & child scenario.

Yes, its a shame about Zodiac's victims, and the crushed law enforcement who tried, but perhaps you should ask the question in regards to the prior and post political agenda, new laws were passed on civilian monitoring, gun legislation, and whole new divisions in the Alphabet Soup Agencies funded with billions of dollars of tax payers money, all off the back of allegedly one man called 'Zodiac' who varied in height, weight and social skills.

See the pattern yet?"

Nope, what is it?

Not my question. The comment starts to lean towards conspiracy theory towards the end, which I don't subscribe to as far as this case is concerned.

I guess the idea that a lunatic just liked killing people & was lucky enough to get away with it because he operated in an era before there were CCTV cameras everywhere, criminal profiling & DNA is too easy.

Zodiac seemed to anticipate DNA technology and did not lick envelopes. He was actually very good at getting away, but he got sloppy with his last murder. THAT TIME he was lucky to avoid capture and he knew it. He never took credit for a murder again. He may not have killed again.

Most likely he would have ended up dead, or locked up for the rest of his life for a murder that wasn't connected. If the letters were really from him then he enjoyed taking risks & playing games.

I remember that author from several years ago on YouTube. He posted podcasts on the same topic, reading Zodiac passages and trying to analyze them from a psychological perspective. They were fairly interesting but I didn't think it was breakthrough work.

Initially the YouTube podcasts were dependable scheduling. Then longer gaps emerged. He would promise a certain timetable then go AWOL. There were frustrated comments below the videos, along with wisecracks about his hairstyle and stuff like that. Typical YouTube.

I think I commented once or twice. The guy would respond to some of the comments below, particularly in the early stages. I haven't checked those videos in years.

Yeah, I'm 100% sure that Leigh Allen is not the Zodiac. I think Graysmith is a major jerkoff whose books are interesting to some extent, yet blatantly unreliable (painting party). The movie was all about Graysmith, which was really disappointing. I highly anticipated the book I mentioned, and was not disappointed.

I am also convinced that Arthur Leigh Allen was not the Zodiac. He enjoyed the attention and toying with detectives, but he was a troubled man not responsible. Robert Graysmith's book is the only reason Allen became the prime suspect.

Graysmith is such a fraud

Graysmith played a very valuable role, doing legwork and enabling spotlight on this case when few others cared, particularly outside the region after the initial wave of fear.

He fell victim to the natural tendency to try to solve the case when you've invested so much time into it. That's familiar everywhere, including on sites like this. It's the reason so many posters wade into threads with their own suspect, "certain" that he/she did it. It's particularly prevalent when somebody lives in the specific area, and knows of an oddball who they've always been suspicious about. The EAR-ONS forum on A&E had one local after another hoisting their own perpetrator. Then I was attacked for offering so-called generalities. Sorry about that. I change my mind. It was the guy in the third house from the left.

I would argue that the author of the Jeffrey MacDonald book influenced and shifted opinion on that case, via the same determination to pinpoint and accuse as opposed to merely presenting. That trend does have logical merits. That lengthy recent book on EAR-ONS was mostly boring, partially because he never presented anyone as his own suspect. Same with Jack The Ripper works. So far removed they go nowhere and receive no attention without a unique solution.

Graysmith never built a solid case against Allen.

His book seemed like a personal vendetta against the guy-he seemed to be stalking him at his place of work etc. The guy may not have been a very nice human being but that doesn't make him a murderer/serial killer.

Allen definitely had a sad life.

One of his friends described him as a "Holden Caulfield" type. A well-meaning screw up.

Allen may not be The Zodiac, but let's not forget that he was a child molester. I have little sympathy for the guy. And I think Allen liked having people think he was Zodiac, which is part of the reason why I think Graysmith suspected him so much.

He was a child rapist. Clearly someone who had issues. He is suspected in other murder cases as well. Most ironic thing is when he died his basement was searched and he had all the pipe bombs and other IEDs that Zodiac claimed he had created. Very intriguing.

Graysmith?

Lee Allen was a convicted child molester who did about 3 years in Atascadero. Zodiac had probably(??????) stopped killing before Allen got busted and they used the lack of Zodiac killings during his sentence as circumstantial evidence.

What is the problem here?

I should have said there were no Zodiac LETTERS during his incarceration.

http://www.zodiackiller.com/MolestingArticle.html

Victor Floyd Wild also known as Brother Ely of the Process Church looks like a really good suspect he made the buckskin outfits for the Manson Family.It looks like there's elements of the Halloween card in his artwork.Some more here. http://zodiackiller.fr.yuku.com/topic/7415/Victor-Floyd-Wild#.VMSAZTU5A5u

Does anyone else believe that Cherri Jo Bates wasn't a Zodiac victim? I think it's more likely she was killed by someone she knew.

Does anyone else believe that Cherri Jo Bates wasn't a Zodiac victim? I think it's more likely she was killed by someone she knew.

Well, she could have been killed by someone she knew, who has emerged as a Zodiac suspect.

I found out about this only recently, after not paying any attention to this case in years. I had no idea there was a new suspect. I would say Ross Sullivan is a very good suspect, certainly the most logical one I've seen.

I doubted the Bates connection also. Actually I never researched it at all. A few years earlier and in a different region of the state. Seemed doubtful.

But some experts apparently connected a poem written on a desk to Zodiac. I don't know if it was stylistic or grammar, or what the connection was.

Ross Sullivan was suspected of the Bates murder by several members of the library staff. She was murdered near her car after a night session at the library. Those staff members reportedly co-wrote a letter to authorities expressing their belief that Sullivan was responsible, and also their fear of him.

Sullivan's own brother reportedly believed that Ross was the Zodiac.

The kicker is that Ross Sullivan is a fantastic facial match to the Zodiac composites, right down to the hairstyle, glasses and hairline. That's the startling aspect.

So instead of decades-removed vague stabs at someone who can't be tied at all to any of the murders, at least this one carries real-time suspicion from the '60s, and also a physical match. That carries some of the burdens that I prioritize.

There's a marathon Ross Sullivan thread on one site, maybe 100 pages or thereabouts. I didn't read much of it. Apparently the height issue is key to some people who reject Sullivan. He was much taller than the normal Zodiac estimates.

From what I remember from years ago, Mike Mageau (sp?) saw Zodiac while thrashing around on his back while dodging bullets in the rear of a car in a dark isolated parking lot. That's seemingly not an ideal setting to estimate height. Bryan Hartnell likewise survived a Zodiac attack. His view at Berryessa included the famous Zodiac hood. Again, I'm not sure height estimates are extremely reliable there. The Paul Stine cab driver murder near the Presidio was witnessed by teenagers in a balcony across the street. That crime sourced the composites considered the most reliable. But again, from across the street and at significantly different level you might not gauge height accurately, especially if Zodiac was crouched over while wiping down the car and ripping off the portion of Stine's shirt.

Seemingly the best source of height estimates would be the two police officers who apparently came across Zodiac minutes later and briefly spoke to him, during the chaos when the Stine murderer was wrongly believed to be a black man. I think one of those officers died not long later and the other has given only one or two high profile statements, notably on ABC a decade or so ago. I don't remember if he gave a height estimate.

Ross Sullivan is dead. His brother is also dead. From what I've read, not much has been learned about his background, or where he was during the Zodiac crimes. One remote family member supposedly responded to a researcher, but only reluctantly and did not add much or indicate that further questioning was welcome within the family.

The primary problem with Sullivan as a Zodiac suspect, as I see it, is that he was seriously obese at the time of the Zodiac killings. For him to have been Zodiac would have abnegated the descriptions given by all three confirmed Zodiac killings where there were eyewitnesses, all of which put Zodiac as overweight/stalky but not acutely obese like Sullivan was. The description given by witnesses that saw the Zodiac after the Stein killing, especially, is almost totally irreconcilable with Sullivan's weight circa 1969.

Of course, all of this matters not if one thinks Sullivan killed Bates but was not the Zodiac.

The primary problem with Sullivan as a Zodiac suspect, as I see it, is that he was seriously obese at the time of the Zodiac killings. For him to have been Zodiac would have abnegated the descriptions given by all three confirmed Zodiac killings where there were eyewitnesses, all of which put Zodiac as overweight/stalky but not acutely obese like Sullivan was. The description given by witnesses that saw the Zodiac after the Stein killing, especially, is almost totally irreconcilable with Sullivan's weight circa 1969.

Of course, all of this matters not if one thinks Sullivan killed Bates but was not the Zodiac.

I don't think we know what Ross Sullivan looked like in 1969. He was described as obese at death in 1977 after being institutionalized for several years. The prominent pictures of him as a young man display big shoulders and a large frame, the type of frame that can easily fool people in terms of height and weight estimate. It appears square as opposed to belly.

The Zodiac crimes encompass a relatively brief period midway between those dates. His brother lived in the Bay Area and would have been aware of Zodiac specifics, including description. We may not have much information on why his brother suspected Ross as Zodiac but if it's true he did, then logically he would know that Ross couldn't be excluded based on locale or physical characteristics.

Let's say a group of people provide a height and weight estimate, of a stranger they have seen briefly from moderate distance. No time lag. Hours or days ago. Then those witnesses are grouped in a room before the person in question enters and stands before a height wall and on a scale. What is the confidence level of the estimates? In Las Vegas sports wagering there are props based on variance from the spread. For example, if the result is 0-6 points away you receive low odds, then higher at 7-12 removed, and so forth. If similar were applied here I would certainly take a high deviance at greatest odds, particularly in terms of weight. People have a tough time estimating weight, especially with larger men.

The estimates I have seen of Ross Sullivan are 250-300. That may not be fully obese for a male in the 6-2 range but it also doesn't align with Zodiac witness estimates.

This is another case of...what is it worth? I guess they all share that dilemma. Some authorities discounted Richard McCoy as DB Cooper due to age estimates and purported eye color. Given other variables at hand, those accounts weren't worth a frog in the wind. This situation is not as clear cut but it's a very, very rare example of a new suspect in a high profile case who shouldn't have a laugh track accompanying his name. There isn't much out there about Ross Sullivan. Something caused those librarians to fear him. After I researched a bit more today, the Riverside/Bates connection to Zodiac was considered so solid that the Los Angeles Times ran a huge two-line front page block headline that looked like a moon landing headline. I am disturbed by seemingly no information about ciphers and whether Sullivan was inclined or capable.

For anyone interested, the video site has an excellent presentation titled, "Zodiac Killer: Definitive Identity." The final 4 minutes or so deal with the Ross Sullivan connection. Prior to that is mostly Zodiac overview but obviously the material is specifically selected to boost Sullivan as Zodiac.

I have to say the handwriting on the Bates and Zodiac envelopes is so similar that it's difficult to discount the conclusion that the same person penned both. There has been speculation that Zodiac did not kill Bates, but did take credit for it, in those letters six months after the fact and also on the desk poem. There was also a phone call, similar to Zodiac method. Sullivan supposedly knew Bates and attended the same wedding three weeks earlier. The typed letter indicated a personal motive as opposed to random choice.

This is the person who should be investigated, IMO, as opposed to random flails or doing nothing. It is curious that the family members chose not to cooperate as opposed to helping clear Ross' name and therefore eliminate further invasion. Familial DNA would seemingly do it.

BTW, Ross Sullivan died in 1977 so that's after the last authenticated Zodiac letter. That in itself is not meaningless. That perpetrator loved to brag and taunt and inspire fear. One would think he would continue to do so, if alive and able even if long since finishing his murderous reign. Ross Sullivan had severe mental issues and reportedly was institutionalized in 1974, no longer on his own terms. The final legit Zodiac letter was in 1974.

My name is Mike Morford and I run zodiackillersite.com I was the person who re-introduced Ross Sullivan as a Zodiac suspect. I believe he likely was the Zodiac Killer, but I don't want to force him onto anybody else as a 'best' suspect,everybody has the right to their own opinion. Anyhow, I just wanted to say, I've researched the Zodiac case for well over a decade, so if anybody has any case questions,I'd be happy to answer any questions. I'll be blogging about the Zodiac case on my blog at Truecrimeguy.com and plan to do some Youtube videos about the case on my Youtube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAI8QH_m3L3afDpbTbW-jpw

Just a correction to the poster above,the police did not stop Zodiac that night. They slowed down and looked at him and kept driving as the dispatcher had put out a notice to look for a black male. By the time the description was corrected, and they turned around and went back, Zodiac was gone

There is ample documentation and first hand accounts to suggest that Ross Sullivan was obese at the time of the Zodiac killings, so we do have a good idea of what he looked like in 1969. Other things do not jive as well, including lack of connection to the Vallejo/Benecia area. He was also taller than the descriptions given.

Please see this thread on Morford's site, and glad to see him posting here. I happen to disagree with Mike concerning the plausibility of Ross as the Zodiac, but his site is nonetheless a fantastic resource for Zodiac information.

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/viewtopic.php?f=106&t=3138&hilit=ross+sullivan+weight

I agree with you that firsthand witness accounts are not always great, but that amount of height and weight difference is large. I would put greater trust in Hartnell's opinion than that of Mageau for obvious reasons, as he talked to Zodiac for an extremely long length of time and gave a very descriptive account of almost everything down to the material his hood and outfit was made of.

There is ample documentation and first hand accounts to suggest that Ross Sullivan was obese at the time of the Zodiac killings. Other things do not jive as well, including lack of connection to the Vallejo/Benecia area. He was also taller than the descriptions given.

Please see this thread on Morford's site, and glad to see him posting here. I happen to disagree with Mike concerning the plausibility of Ross as the Zodiac, but his site is nonetheless a fantastic resource for Zodiac information.

http://www.zodiackillersite.com/viewtopic.php?f=106&t=3138&hilit=ross+sullivan+weight

I agree with you that firsthand witness accounts are not always great, but that amount of height and weight difference is large. I would put greater trust in Hartnell's opinion than that of Mageau for obvious reasons, as he talked to Zodiac for an extremely long length of time and gave a very descriptive account of almost everything down to the material his hood and outfit was made of.

Thanks. In the case of the Zodiac, we can always agree to disagree about things ;)

Zodiac was what I tend to term a "thrill kill" serial killer. The thrill of the act itself was far more important to him than the actual victim or any ritual involved in the killing. There are certain cliches that we all tend to ascribe to serial killers. They always seem to be unmarried or divorced men who live alone (or with their mother in the movies). They are usually intelligent but employed in menial jobs. This is because their intelligenct is scattered. They don't possess the drive and focus to put their intelligence to good use. They are brilliant in their own minds but it's a lackadaisical brilliance. Oftentimes, killers like Zodiac use their crimes as a way to "make their mark" on the world. We certainly know Zodiac enjoyed taking credit for his work in the press.

I believe that Zodiac fantasized about killing people long before he actually did it. I don't think the who was ever very important to him. I think at Lake Herman Road, Blue Rock Springs, and Lake Berryessa he was hunting the area not the people. I think he struck couples because it was convenient and because that's who he found at the locations he was hunting. In the case of a lot of serial killers, they have a particular victim type or a ritual (think Dennis Rader, Gary Ridgeway, or John Wayne Gacy) I don't think this was the case with Zodiac for several reasons. It's been surmised, incorrectly in my opinion, that he focused on the women in his attacks, and that they were the important victims of his attacks.

Think about the following:
-There was no woman involved in the Presidio Heights attack.

-At Lake Berryessa, Brian Hartnell just happened to survive despite being stabbed repeatedly just like Cecelia Shepard was. There was not a sufficiently large difference in the number of stab wounds to the victims.

-At Blue Rock Springs, he fired indiscriminately into the car. And when he returned after hearing Mageau moaning and screaming in pain he returned and fired again on both victims.

-When he attacked Faraday and Jensen at Lake Herman Road, he shot Faraday once and Jensen five times. While this seems like he was focused on Jensen, in reality it is because he shot Jensen as she was fleeing and multiple shots were required to kill her while David was shot in the head as he exited the car.

I believe very strongly that Lake Herman Road was not Zodiac's first kill. Debate exists whether Cheri Jo Bates was a Zodiac victim, and it exists for good reason. The evidence linking her to Zodiac is tenuous. That aside, I believe he knew his first victim regardless of whether it was Cheri Jo Bates or someone else. While I don't feel that the victims were important to Zodiac, I think, for his first kill, he would have stalked a particular victim and it was someone he knew even if only peripherally. His first kill would have required a great deal of caution to him. He would have been nervous, anxious, and scared before carrying out the attack. But, he also would have been exhilerated while planning and stalking, and that feeling kept him moving forward.

I think that he planned, even if only in his head, far more attacks than he ever carried out. He showed us some of those plans in his letters. The bomb schematics and the talk of killing school children were the kinds of ideas that filled his head. I'd be almost certain that he had actually planned for some of them as well. I wouldn't be surprised if he had homemade explosives and other weapons to carry out the plans in his possession.

Now, why did he stop killing after the Presidio Heights incident while continuing to send letters for years? I think Paul Stine was a wake-up call for Zodiac. I think he planned this attack ahead of time (any cab driver, I don't think he targeted Paul Stine). I think the idea of getting into a cab and then killing the driver at the destination was one of those crimes that he came up with in his mind same as the school bus incident he described in his letters. I think the idea of sitting in the backseat of the cab knowing it was going to be the cabbie's last ride excited him. Not sexually, I don't think his crimes excited him that way even though he compared killing to "getting your rocks off with a girl" in his letters. But, I think he underestimated the response time of the police at Presidio Heights. I think he expected to have more time to make his getaway. Given that witnesses saw him at the car and the police most likely saw him fleeing the scene, I think that Zodiac had a close call. I think this made him back off from actually committing the acts of violence that came to his mind. I also think that it is highly likely that he would have resumed killing, but something prevented him from it. I don't know if it was death or incarceration; however, I firmly believe that the only reason we didn't see later Zodiac victims is because he was unable to kill anymore.

That's a lot of opinion that really lead nowhere, but I thought I'd share because this Zodiac thread only has two pages and Tim McClure has 80+ pages.

That's a lot of opinion that really lead nowhere, but I thought I'd share because this Zodiac thread only has two pages and Tim McClure has 80+ pages.

LOL.

Here all this time, I thought the Zodiac and the Unabomber were one and the same... :rofl: :rofl:

That's a lot of opinion that really lead nowhere, but I thought I'd share because this Zodiac thread only has two pages and Tim McClure has 80+ pages.

Yeah but Tim McClure was a cultural phenomenon don't ya know. All the books and movies about Timmy. Culminating in a hour long special on Unsolved Mysteries. It's not like there are people on this very board that have an unhealthy obsession about him or anything :rolleyes:

I'd agree with much of what Asmitty posted above. The Zodiac stalked areas,not people. He likely drove around in secluded areas where lone couples frequented and he attacked them as he found them.

I agree, Zodiac may have killed before his confirmed victims, or at the very least, fantasized about it. I think the Bates murder may have been what set something off in him that made him decide to kill. I am up in the air as to whether Zodiac killed Cheri(I lean towards NO)but I have no doubt he wrote the letters in her case and authored the desktop poem found in the Riverside college library. Cheri's case is entirely interesting all by itself, Zodiac related or not,but her case muddies the water a bit.

There are some possible Zodiac victims prior to the confirmed Zodiac victims, most notably the Domingos/Edwards murders in Santa Barbara county near Goleta in 1963. The M.O. used to attack and subdue the victims is very similar to the Zodiac's attack at Lake Berryessa, and there's an unconfirmed rumor out there that boot tracks found at the 1963 crime scene were Wingwalker boot tracks....the same boot track found at the Zodiac's Lake Berryessa crime scene in 1969

Yeah but Tim McClure was a cultural phenomenon don't ya know. All the books and movies about Timmy. Culminating in a hour long special on Unsolved Mysteries. It's not like there are people on this very board that have an unhealthy obsession about him or anything :rolleyes:
Its that wonderful head of hair of his.
http://unsolved.com/sites/default/files2/mur_terri_mcclure3.jpg