This is a very perplexing and strange case for me and I'm totally on the fence on this one. I've looked at the evidence and read articles on her case several times and I just don't know. A person would have to be severely mentally ill to stage attacks of this magnitude on them self. This went on for seven years, it pretty hard to believe that a person could keep this harassment up for that long. She was a nurse, don't you think she would have known by injecting herself with the amount of morphine found in her system would kill her? I don't think someone with the medical training she had would knowingly do that to them self. The police assume just because she wasn't telling them the whole story that she was lying and doing this to herself. Take the fire in her basement for instance, why would she have purposely set fire to her home knowing other people were inside? it doesn't make sense. An investigator that was at the crime scene said that it would be virtually impossible for someone to hog tie themself like that; which I believe, I tried this myself once and after a couple hours I gave up because I couldn't do it! It's nearly impossible for me to believe that in her drugged state that she could have tied herself up like that; i think the cops are missing an important piece of the puzzle here. I believe some how she was blacking out with no memory of what had happened, maybe from being drugged over time it affected her memory or possibly a head injury. I just don't know; but I'm leaning towards homicide. What does everyone else think? Any thoughts, ideas, opinions on this case I would love to hear your take!

I think the fact that she kept withholding information and making that public, makes me wonder what was really going on in her head.

If you remember, her psychiatrist actually appeared on the program and commented that the reason she committed herself was that she was worried people thought it was actually her.

No answers anywhere in this case - I've heard a few people mention her ex-husband being involved.

This case has always perplexed me (long time lurker 1st time poster) I don't see how someone can hogtie themselves. She didn't help her situation by not telling anyone who she thought was behind it but I'm not buying she took morphine pills THEN tied herself up, layer down and died? Something's not right

There's apparently a really good book written on this case. I need to read it.

I think I remember from the UM re-enactments that someone WAS able to duplicate the results. I don't think they drugged themselves, but they were able to hog-tie themselves up...

Most women do commit suicide by pills/medication if why do kill themselves. I've always felt it was an elaborate suicide. Why would the killer overdose her but make it look like it was a strangling at the scene? Of course, it's possible she was killed but after all those years no suspect? Plus, a victim of terror and harassment usually doesn't go walking their dog alone at night at 3am as said in the episode. So, I dunno. I'm more inclined with suicide. Also she was a nurse and was well versed in how much morphine would be fatal ect

It is not impossible to hogtie yourself, especially if you're extremely flexible.

A friend of mine has a genetic disorder that does something to the collagen in her body and basically makes her Plastic man.

I have so many questions in this case:

In the incident where she got a knife through her hand, was it through her dominant hand?

Why would she go and deposit her check if she was going to kill herself in the next few minutes?

When she was found dead, she had a needle mark in her arm, but there were no works found with her. So, was that from the morphine? If so, where's the needle?

Several incidents involved stockings. Were the new stockings? Used? Have they been kept somewhere? If used, can they be checked for DNA?

When her phone lines were cut, what were the cut with? Were they always cut with the same sort of tool?

In the crime scene shots, her hand looks black. Is this due to decomp or is it from lividity? If it was lividity, why is it on the part of her hands on top?

One of the videos I watched on her sister's site discussed how the first investigating officer developed a relationship with Cindy, move in with her and their relationship deepened. Did the officer engage in a romantic relationship with Cindy? If so, can we trust his assessment of the case?

I've only ever seen photocopies of the notes. Is it photocopies that were sent and not the original ransom note style collages? If so, were they all made on the same copier? Do the notes and envelopes still exist somewhere?



Wow. Just did some quick research into Dr. Tyhurst, a psychiatrist mentioned in another thread about Cindy. He worked with Cindy's husband.

In addition to being convicted of sexually abusing one of his clients, he did extensive research on LSD. According to some sources he was funded by the CIA during the MKULTRA/Project ARTICHOKE era. You know, the one that led to the "suicide" of another Unsolved Mysteries story… Frank Olson.

https://books.google.com/books?id=WLRDM6mbBmwC&pg=PA89&lpg=PA89&dq=hollywood+hospital+vancouver+tyhurst&source=bl&ots=MixLs5vgbT&sig=wYt8pX0YCIXO_uTulQ1mEewhAyc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TISjVIvgMMqwggTDy4DAAQ&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=hollywood%20hospital%20vancouver%20tyhurst&f=false

http://www.harrykarlinsky.ca/filmreviews/hoffmans-potion-the-early-years-of-lsd-2002/

https://books.google.com/books?id=g19YFuKqKeUC&pg=PT24&lpg=PT24&dq=hollywood+hospital+vancouver+tyhurst&source=bl&ots=Y05-ALAQXZ&sig=XHtU7GC4RsnbUqZd8tKCvpPW8mA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TISjVIvgMMqwggTDy4DAAQ&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=hollywood%20hospital%20vancouver%20tyhurst&f=false

http://alex-sk.de/mirror/colin-ross.html



On the other hand, this paints an entirely different picture of Tyhurst's dealing with LSD.

https://circle.ubc.ca/bitstream/handle/2429/4605/ubc_1996-0262.pdf?sequence=1


And here is some information about his crimes:

https://books.google.com/books?id=H45-xvYgvUUC&pg=PA111&lpg=PA111&dq=james+tyhurst&source=bl&ots=qjTFSrLahd&sig=UoCgRX5afZJ8KYEppqiGsROAmHY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UomjVP_4BY3yggTkkYC4BA&ved=0CEYQ6AEwCDgK#v=onepage&q=james%20tyhurst&f=false


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1335836/pdf/cmaj00246-0135.pdf

I have to say, his defense sounds a lot like what people said about Cindy. When I started this response, I was unsure of what happened to Cindy. Now I believe that even if she did somehow kill herself, it was someone else's fault. I think they drove her crazy. I think they exploited her weaknesses. I think at least some if not all of the instances were real. (Some may have been a desperate attempt on Cindy's part to get someone to believe her.)

I think she was set up. And my suspect list is very short. I think it was someone in the psychiatric community there. The hospital she was admitted to is currently a teaching hospital for UBC where her ex husband and Tyhurst both worked at some point. It appears to have been so for a long time.




Wow. I have fallen far down the research rabbit hole. Time for a break.

For the love of Robert Stack! I think I just came up with a conspiracy theory. I hate conspiracy theories. I'm an Occum's Razor kind of girl. That's how WEIRD this case is.

For the love of Robert Stack! I think I just came up with a conspiracy theory. I hate conspiracy theories. I'm an Occum's Razor kind of girl. That's how WEIRD this case is.

Poltergeist? ;-)

Poltergeist? ;-)

I love how this has become the go-to explanation for any sort of shenanigans anymore...

Necco-- SUPER interesting! :)

Necco - I'd love to hear your theory!!

I am so on the fence about this case.
It is one where I consistently go back and forth as to suicide vs murder.
I just don't understand WHY she wouldn't divulge who she thought was harassing her.

I'd love to get some answers to the questions posed a few posts up.
Someone knows what happened.

I love how this has become the go-to explanation for any sort of shenanigans anymore...

Necco-- SUPER interesting! :)


Except, oddly, the ghost stories! Heh!

There was a voice message left on one of Cindy's answering machines, and it is blatantly obvious that the voice is that of a woman. Since Cindy never id'ed her attackers to anyone, and since the attacks always happened when no one else was around, I think she was doing this to herself and ultimately committed suicide.

This case seemed similar to the Wackers in some respects.

It is not impossible to hogtie yourself, especially if you're extremely flexible.

A friend of mine has a genetic disorder that does something to the collagen in her body and basically makes her Plastic man.

I have so many questions in this case:

In the incident where she got a knife through her hand, was it through her dominant hand?

Why would she go and deposit her check if she was going to kill herself in the next few minutes?

When she was found dead, she had a needle mark in her arm, but there were no works found with her. So, was that from the morphine? If so, where's the needle?

Several incidents involved stockings. Were the new stockings? Used? Have they been kept somewhere? If used, can they be checked for DNA?

When her phone lines were cut, what were the cut with? Were they always cut with the same sort of tool?

In the crime scene shots, her hand looks black. Is this due to decomp or is it from lividity? If it was lividity, why is it on the part of her hands on top?

One of the videos I watched on her sister's site discussed how the first investigating officer developed a relationship with Cindy, move in with her and their relationship deepened. Did the officer engage in a romantic relationship with Cindy? If so, can we trust his assessment of the case?

I've only ever seen photocopies of the notes. Is it photocopies that were sent and not the original ransom note style collages? If so, were they all made on the same copier? Do the notes and envelopes still exist somewhere?



Wow. Just did some quick research into Dr. Tyhurst, a psychiatrist mentioned in another thread about Cindy. He worked with Cindy's husband.

In addition to being convicted of sexually abusing one of his clients, he did extensive research on LSD. According to some sources he was funded by the CIA during the MKULTRA/Project ARTICHOKE era. You know, the one that led to the "suicide" of another Unsolved Mysteries story… Frank Olson.

https://books.google.com/books?id=WLRDM6mbBmwC&pg=PA89&lpg=PA89&dq=hollywood+hospital+vancouver+tyhurst&source=bl&ots=MixLs5vgbT&sig=wYt8pX0YCIXO_uTulQ1mEewhAyc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TISjVIvgMMqwggTDy4DAAQ&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=hollywood%20hospital%20vancouver%20tyhurst&f=false

http://www.harrykarlinsky.ca/filmreviews/hoffmans-potion-the-early-years-of-lsd-2002/

https://books.google.com/books?id=g19YFuKqKeUC&pg=PT24&lpg=PT24&dq=hollywood+hospital+vancouver+tyhurst&source=bl&ots=Y05-ALAQXZ&sig=XHtU7GC4RsnbUqZd8tKCvpPW8mA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TISjVIvgMMqwggTDy4DAAQ&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=hollywood%20hospital%20vancouver%20tyhurst&f=false

http://alex-sk.de/mirror/colin-ross.html



On the other hand, this paints an entirely different picture of Tyhurst's dealing with LSD.

https://circle.ubc.ca/bitstream/handle/2429/4605/ubc_1996-0262.pdf?sequence=1


And here is some information about his crimes:

https://books.google.com/books?id=H45-xvYgvUUC&pg=PA111&lpg=PA111&dq=james+tyhurst&source=bl&ots=qjTFSrLahd&sig=UoCgRX5afZJ8KYEppqiGsROAmHY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UomjVP_4BY3yggTkkYC4BA&ved=0CEYQ6AEwCDgK#v=onepage&q=james%20tyhurst&f=false


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1335836/pdf/cmaj00246-0135.pdf

I have to say, his defense sounds a lot like what people said about Cindy. When I started this response, I was unsure of what happened to Cindy. Now I believe that even if she did somehow kill herself, it was someone else's fault. I think they drove her crazy. I think they exploited her weaknesses. I think at least some if not all of the instances were real. (Some may have been a desperate attempt on Cindy's part to get someone to believe her.)

I think she was set up. And my suspect list is very short. I think it was someone in the psychiatric community there. The hospital she was admitted to is currently a teaching hospital for UBC where her ex husband and Tyhurst both worked at some point. It appears to have been so for a long time.




Wow. I have fallen far down the research rabbit hole. Time for a break.


Whoa, that's all really cool info! thanks! In regards to the bank account and depositing her paychecks. I always thought that IF she did kill herself she wanted it to look like someone else did it. If she had injected herself with morphine, it would've taken effect VERY quickly, much quicker than if she swallowed pills. We're talking seconds if she injected it directly into her blood stream. Since it was enough to kill her, she would've went unconscious within seconds.

So that actually eliminates that she killed herself. Also, if you overdose on pills, usually they find pills in your stomach that aren't absorbed yet so most people die before everything is completely absorbed. So if they found nothing in her stomach and with the needle mark, I'm inclined to believe she was injected. If she was injected that completely eliminates suicide for me because she would've been unconscious within seconds. No enough time to tie herself up or dispose of the needle.

Also it's possible she was injected with heroin as heroin becomes morphine in your body and is always listed on an autopsy as morphine. Heroin would've probably been easier to find for the perpetrator unless they had access to it in the medical field or nursing home.

For the love of Robert Stack! I think I just came up with a conspiracy theory. I hate conspiracy theories. I'm an Occum's Razor kind of girl. That's how WEIRD this case is.

Yup. That's exactly how I felt on the Bishop thread. Rather horrified at the rabbit hole I found myself in.... I'm also an Occam's razor kind of girl.

That being said, this case in particular makes little sense to me. From what I've read, I don't think she committed suicide. It is disturbing to me that the Vancouver police couldn't be arsed to look further into it. The whole possible dissociative identity disorder (DID) or multiple personality disorder (MPD) explanation is a bit too convenient. I'm not saying it's impossible but there is a great deal of controversy about that disorder anyway (some psychiatrists maintain it doesn't even properly exist). I think she was murdered.

Let me ask for those members who might know. I see there are two books about Cindy James on Amazon. Both are from roughly the same time perioed (early 90's). My question is, which is the best book? One actually has an error on the dust jacket of when she died. I see Neal Hall's book though is the most expensive and harder to come by.

You know, it's interesting. The Bashire Kouchaji case had a lot in common with Cindy James and everyone believed Bashire.

Poltergeist? ;-)

demons

demons

Aw, hell.

Let me ask for those members who might know. I see there are two books about Cindy James on Amazon. Both are from roughly the same time perioed (early 90's). My question is, which is the best book? One actually has an error on the dust jacket of when she died. I see Neal Hall's book though is the most expensive and harder to come by.


I don't know, but I do know her sister is working on a new book.

http://www.melaniehack.com

I know that she's been working on it for a long time with no real release date in the near future. I'd like to read more on this case.

Aw, hell.


Remember the good old days when we could blame things on "some kooks"?

demons

Cottingley Fairies.

Remember the good old days when we could blame things on "some kooks"?

Or some el sickos?

Double post. Nothing to see here.

Lord, how I miss the kooks. I would be okay with an el sicko, even...

Lord, how I miss the kooks. I would be okay with an el sicko, even...

Only if they pay... I'm strapped for cash right now ;-)

Only if they pay... I'm strapped for cash right now ;-)


Ok. It's great that neognosis is loopy and all, but this is MY thread to be crazy and blame rogue doctors formerly funded by the CIA.

Can we get back to my impossible and insane theory?!?!?

:crazy: :lol: :crazy: :lol: :crazy:

Right, right. Sorry!

I think the whole CIA/LSD/MK Ultra thing is VERY interesting. You raise done points which I don't think have ever been considered. Could Cindy have been pushed into psychosis? Maybe. I wouldn't discount it. But what would be the motive??

Right, right. Sorry!

I think the whole CIA/LSD/MK Ultra thing is VERY interesting. You raise done points which I don't think have ever been considered. Could Cindy have been pushed into psychosis? Maybe. I wouldn't discount it. But what would be the motive??


I read somewhere that just before this all started, she went with her husband to the island where James Tyhurst had his practice and committed his crimes. Maybe she saw something. She was a nurse and the wife of a friend. She (at the time) would have been a very credible witness. Maybe at the time whoever did it couldn't bring themselves to kill her. Maybe they wanted to see how she would react. Maybe they turned a witness problem into a sick psychological game. Maybe he was just a sadistic jerk.

From a logistical standpoint, HOW could Cindy have injected herself and then hogtied herself and dispose the needle?
I'd love to hear some theories on that.

Also, was it confirmed that she was injected with morphine?
Or could it have been pills?

The phone call to Cindy does sound like a woman trying to sound like a man...and it is actually quite creepy.
I wish someone listed the *known facts* of this case.
I have never been so "on the fence" before.
I usually develop a theory from early on...and it may change or evolve, but with this case, I can't get any firm ideas, since so many things don't make sense.

Let me ask for those members who might know. I see there are two books about Cindy James on Amazon. Both are from roughly the same time perioed (early 90's). My question is, which is the best book? One actually has an error on the dust jacket of when she died. I see Neal Hall's book though is the most expensive and harder to come by.

Neal Hall's book is better. He doesn't take a side. He just states the facts and lets the readers conclude for themselves. I bought his book off of Amazon in 2001 for just $2.00.

Neal Hall's book is better. He doesn't take a side. He just states the facts and lets the readers conclude for themselves. I bought his book off of Amazon in 2001 for just $2.00.

Jealous! It's 10x that now..

If anyone wants more information about specifics, I can check the book and write down what it says.

For instance, here is an excerpt regarding the drugs found in Cindy's system as stated at the inquest...

By June 29, the preliminary toxicology tests showed Cindy had an overdose level of the prescription drug flurazepam in her system. Constable Jerry Anderson said he was informed that she likely would have remained conscious for no longer than 20 minutes after taking the drug. The level of flurazepam was eventually determined to be 10 times that of a lethal dose.

As for the morphine, also found at a level 10 times that of a lethal dose, Leask (attorney hired by Cindy's family) suggested that drug experts could not tell if it had been injected or ingested.

"That's true." Anderson said he learned that morphine was used on the hospital ward where Cindy worked, although there is a tight narcotic-control system in place at the hospital.

"Every drop of morphine used and received is recorded?" Leask asked.

"Yes."

"Did you check those records?"

"No," said Anderson, as Cindy's family and friends sighed in disgust. "I was told by the hospital there was no shortages.

"What other sources of morphine are there?"

"Drugstores, the street, doctor offices."

Anderson agreed with Leask that he did not check to see if there had been any drug store thefts of morphine prior to Cindy's disappearance, and he did not investigate Dr. Makepeace's access to morphine.

Pathologist Sheila Carlyle testified that, because of the state of decomposition of the body, it was difficult to determine whether the overdoses of morphine and flurazepam had been administered orally or by injection.

Carlyle theorized that the flurazepam was ingested orally since tablets were found in the contents of her stomach. She also believed it was likely that the morphine was ingested despite the needle mark on Cindy's arm.

Although Carlyle agreed with Leask that she could not rule out the skin puncture as an injection site for the morphine administered by someone other than Cindy, she added, "it is entirely conceivable and feasible that this could be a self-contrived event."

Carlyle had one reason to believe that Cindy had been alive where her body was eventually found. She felt that Cindy had been kneeling on her neatly spread out coat and had fallen over on her right side as she lost consciousness. Moreover, there was some mobility of the body as death neared, judging from how she was found. Her right knee had worked it's way under the natural vegetation floor which suggested the body hadn't been dropped after death but had some mobility until death."

Toxicologist Heather Dinn estimated the amount of flurazepam in Cindy's body would amount to 20-30 mg. tablets or up to 80 tablets of a lower dosage. She did not know how long it would take to swallow that many tablets.

Pharmacology expert John McNeil, who reviewed the toxicology test results, testified that either of the drugs in Cindy's body could have killed her. Both morphine and flurazepam cause progressive sedation and decrease brain activity, and an overdose would cause the person to become drowsy, then induce a coma and eventually death.

McNeil concluded the flurazepam was taken orally since it is only available by oral prescription. He estimated the dose in Cindy's system would have taken 15-20 minutes to sedate her and up to four hours to kill her.

The morphine could have been injected or taken orally, since it is available in tablet or liquid prescriptions. If ingested orally, McNeil noted, it could have been self administered and rendered Cindy unconscious within 15 to 30 minutes and could have been taken 30 minutes after the flurazepam.

If injected, the morphine must have been administered by someone other than Cindy since unconsciousness would have occurred almost immediately and killed her within 15 to 20 minutes, McNeil said.

As the death scene segment of the inquest ended with another puzzling possibility, it was clear that the police did not have any conclusive physical evidence that would prove Cindy James died of her own hand. Each portion of testimony seemed to be riddled with ambiguity.

After hearing months of testimony heavily laced with complex medical and psychiatric jargon that was confusing and tedious, the members of the jury looked weary. They wondered if they would ever get back to their normal lives.

If anyone wants more information about specifics, I can check the book and write down what it says.

For instance, here is an excerpt regarding the drugs found in Cindy's system as stated at the inquest...

By June 29, the preliminary toxicology tests showed Cindy had an overdose level of the prescription drug flurazepam in her system. Constable Jerry Anderson said he was informed that she likely would have remained conscious for no longer than 20 minutes after taking the drug. The level of flurazepam was eventually determined to be 10 times that of a lethal dose.

As for the morphine, also found at a level 10 times that of a lethal dose, Leask (attorney hired by Cindy's family) suggested that drug experts could not tell if it had been injected or ingested.

"That's true." Anderson said he learned that morphine was used on the hospital ward where Cindy worked, although there is a tight narcotic-control system in place at the hospital.

"Every drop of morphine used and received is recorded?" Leask asked.

"Yes."

"Did you check those records?"

"No," said Anderson, as Cindy's family and friends sighed in disgust. "I was told by the hospital there was no shortages.

"What other sources of morphine are there?"

"Drugstores, the street, doctor offices."

Anderson agreed with Leask that he did not check to see if there had been any drug store thefts of morphine prior to Cindy's disappearance, and he did not investigate Dr. Makepeace's access to morphine.

Pathologist Sheila Carlyle testified that, because of the state of decomposition of the body, it was difficult to determine whether the overdoses of morphine and flurazepam had been administered orally or by injection.

Carlyle theorized that the flurazepam was ingested orally since tablets were found in the contents of her stomach. She also believed it was likely that the morphine was ingested despite the needle mark on Cindy's arm.

Although Carlyle agreed with Leask that she could not rule out the skin puncture as an injection site for the morphine administered by someone other than Cindy, she added, "it is entirely conceivable and feasible that this could be a self-contrived event."

Carlyle had one reason to believe that Cindy had been alive where her body was eventually found. She felt that Cindy had been kneeling on her neatly spread out coat and had fallen over on her right side as she lost consciousness. Moreover, there was some mobility of the body as death neared, judging from how she was found. Her right knee had worked it's way under the natural vegetation floor which suggested the body hadn't been dropped after death but had some mobility until death."

Toxicologist Heather Dinn estimated the amount of flurazepam in Cindy's body would amount to 20-30 mg. tablets or up to 80 tablets of a lower dosage. She did not know how long it would take to swallow that many tablets.

Pharmacology expert John McNeil, who reviewed the toxicology test results, testified that either of the drugs in Cindy's body could have killed her. Both morphine and flurazepam cause progressive sedation and decrease brain activity, and an overdose would cause the person to become drowsy, then induce a coma and eventually death.

McNeil concluded the flurazepam was taken orally since it is only available by oral prescription. He estimated the dose in Cindy's system would have taken 15-20 minutes to sedate her and up to four hours to kill her.

The morphine could have been injected or taken orally, since it is available in tablet or liquid prescriptions. If ingested orally, McNeil noted, it could have been self administered and rendered Cindy unconscious within 15 to 30 minutes and could have been taken 30 minutes after the flurazepam.

If injected, the morphine must have been administered by someone other than Cindy since unconsciousness would have occurred almost immediately and killed her within 15 to 20 minutes, McNeil said.

As the death scene segment of the inquest ended with another puzzling possibility, it was clear that the police did not have any conclusive physical evidence that would prove Cindy James died of her own hand. Each portion of testimony seemed to be riddled with ambiguity.

After hearing months of testimony heavily laced with complex medical and psychiatric jargon that was confusing and tedious, the members of the jury looked weary. They wondered if they would ever get back to their normal lives..

Wow thank you so much!!! Okay now that changes my whole opinion again. Since she did have pills in her stomach,the other sedative, I'm seriously inclined to believe she killed herself. If she was murdered, it's just kind of ridiculous. I have watched documentaries about the "right to die" for the terminally I'll and it is very hard for anyone to swallow that many pills. Obviously, it can be done as they do do it, but if a murderer is trying to force her to swallow 80 pills and she's putting up a fight to survive , I really can't fathom how or why they would go through the trouble of trying to make her swallow 80 pills when there were do many other easy ways to kill her. Also, he doesn't mention this but heroin metabolizes as morphine in the body and always comes up on medical reports ect as "morphine". I wonder if they ever ruled out heroin. You can take heroin many ways so just a though. Also, if she took the morphine first (morphine also comes in liquid form so you can swallow it quick) and then swallowed (albeit quickly) the other sensitive pills both would've taken about 20 minutes to knock her out. The morphine just would've killed her faster. That would've given her 20-25mins after ingestion to tie herself up. She also , if she was doing this to herself, had practice tying herself up and putting that sticking around her throat. I honestly haven't heard of a murderer attempting to make a murder that's an overdose look like a strangling? It's bizarre

If she did, in fact, swallow the pills, it makes for a much stronger case that she killed herself. I mean, there was no evidence of another person, such as DNA or a witness, and that creepy call she received sounded like a woman.

It is so bizarre to go to such extreme lengths to kill yourself.
I wonder what the thought process is...was she doing it to get attention?
To hope that someone would save her?

I am still not totally convinced that she wasn't murdered, but I'm leaning more toward the suicide theory.

I could of swore there was a scene from the case where a family member, trusted friend or neighbor heard a voice over the walkie or com system when she was getting attacked in the house.....

I could of swore there was a scene from the case where a family member, trusted friend or neighbor heard a voice over the walkie or com system when she was getting attacked in the house.....

Nobody heard a voice coming from the 2 way radio. Her private investigator she hired heard "funny sounds" coming from it and went over to her house to check on her.

Also, she accused her ex husband of being her stalker. He always denied it and always testified at the inquest held after her death. He was 18 years her senior which would've put him in his 60s when she was killed. Police did investigate him though throughly according to this news video on YouTube but believe he had nothing to do with it. The voice on his answering machine that he turned over to police sounds a lot like a woman trying to disguise their voice

I think the more I read about the case is that she had mental issues. Many things point to her being the mysterious assailant. I think she was having episodes and truly believed she was being stalked etc. Very sad.

Always had a hard time believing she committed suicide. I can't imagine how she would have managed to tie her own hands, and concoct such an elaborate suicide scene winding up in the yard of an old abandoned house.

Plus the guy they interviewed from the RCMP who was championing the suicide theory did not inspire a whole lot confidence. He looked like someone who you would see down at the mall playing Magic the Gathering with friends rather than a good cop.

Similar to the Wackers, I've always been of the opinion cases like this simply have to be treated seriously until its proven that its in someone's head. Just because law enforcement is not smart enough to find a suspect doesn't mean he doesn't exist.

Forensic science has come a long way since Cindy James died, can't help but feel a modern forensics team might either destroy or prove the suicide theory.

"He looked like someone who you would see down at the mall playing Magic the Gathering with friends rather than a good cop." Lol. :-D It's been awhile since I watched the segment. I know on YT there are segments of the case on the news.

I go back and forth with is it suicide or murder actually. It's such a bizarre case. (please correct me if I'm wrong) Cindy is pretty much always alone when something odd happens. (being discovered with the Knife in her hand, the fire starting in the Basement, the weird notes,) to her bizarre behavior of walking a Dog alone at 3 a.m. alone when she is seemingly being stalked. (She moved once too right? and the calls followed her) the creepy message on her machine resembles a Woman.

I'm gonna assume it was proven that the calls were actually happening in real time? (as in no way she could've made them up. Do they show up so to speak? Did the Cops try to trace them?) Thought I read a Detective was in her Kitchen when some calls came in.

it's bizarre she was found hogtied and OD'd on Morphine for sure. As others have posted she could've drank it or taken it in Pill form. I'm assuming if she was a Nurse she could've sneaked some from her Workplace. Did anyone ever check if there were shortages nearby? Is it really impossible she couldn't have tied herself up? I probably wouldn't be able to but others probably are able to. (I'm gonna go back and read some Posts on the case for the heck of it.)

But that begs the question, if Cindy was doped up on pills, how did she manage to tie herself up? And if she tied herself up first, how did she inject the drugs? Hog tying yourself would be a helluva trick even if you were sober. I can't imagine how you'd do it with the low dexterity that comes with being doped up.

As for the incidents only occurring when Cindy was alone, this is not as remarkable as people make out. If someone has an idea of your schedule or routine, they could easily strike only when you are alone. Or if it is easy to tell if anyone is around. What I wonder is did any of the PI's involved conduct surveillance on Cindy's place without Cindy's knowledge or anyone else's? If they had, it seems like this could have been resolved. If she was doing it to herself it seems like they surely could have caught her in the act, unless you think she had ESP and knew when they were watching her. If they had caught her in the act, then they could have had her committed somewhere where she could have hopefully gotten real help she needed. If not, they might could have nailed the perp.

Also like I said forensic science has advanced a great deal since 1989. I can't help but have the gut feeling a modern Forensics team might have painted a very different picture of this case. I mean, if Cindy's scratches came from her own fingernails, they could have found her own skin under her fingernails. that's just one example.

It really depends on how the knots were tied. If they were tied in parallel in such a way that pulling one end would tighten the whole lot, it could be done, even dopey.

I have some friends who frequently like to overshare about their indoor sporting activities. (No judgment from me other than… dude, I don't want to think about some guy I went to 7th grade catechism with like that!) You'd be amazed what people can do to themselves.

As for the incidents only occurring when Cindy was alone, this is not as remarkable as people make out. If someone has an idea of your schedule or routine, they could easily strike only when you are alone. Or if it is easy to tell if anyone is around. What I wonder is did any of the PI's involved conduct surveillance on Cindy's place without Cindy's knowledge or anyone else's? If they had, it seems like this could have been resolved. If she was doing it to herself it seems like they surely could have caught her in the act, unless you think she had ESP and knew when they were watching her. If they had caught her in the act, then they could have had her committed somewhere where she could have hopefully gotten real help she needed. If not, they might could have nailed the perp.

Everything you stated right here is what angers me about the police's involvement during the entire ordeal. You have to read the books to really understand the frustration they caused but basically, the police, or at least the majority of the police, did not believe Cindy was being stalked for a good portion of those 6 1/2 years. Surveillance on her house was always known to her. It wasn't until after she was dead, at the inquest, where they stated they wished they had told her that surveillance was done for the evening but secretly continue to watch her to see if they could catch her in the act. But they never did that. It's kind of pathetic that a police force could spend year after year after year not believing someone and yet STILL not be able to catch a prowler or her faking the who ordeal. They got nothing.

If I'm one of those officers and I think she's behind the whole thing, I would be personally obsessed with busting her and get someone to watch her non-stop.

When Cindy wasn't working full time or being watched by police, the effort to pretend to be stalked would have consumed every minute of her life. All of those threatening notes that were mailed to her home and her work as well as the threatening poster boards that were constantly left on her doorstep had long messages spelled out that were cut and paste from magazines and newspapers, each letter being from a different publication. Do you know how insanely long and tedious each one of those would be to make?

And all those different incidents where dead cats were thrown on her front lawn. If Cindy was behind her torment, that would mean she would have had to either drive around the neighborhood looking for road kill or alley cats or drive to the pet store to pick them up so she could strangle them to death and throw them on her property. On top of constantly getting on a ladder to cut her own phone lines, vandalize her garden, unscrew her porch lights, break her basement windows, etc. for years and years, these are all very time consuming things. If the police couldn't catch her, a neighbor, a friend, or a family member should have. But nothing.

This is why I have never been able to pick a side in this case. Not a single thing could ever be conclusively proven to 100% support stalking vs. faking, murder vs. suicide.

Here's another short excerpt from the book that makes me wonder, if she was faking everything, how she pulled it off...

Tom and Agnes Woodcock were staying at Cindy’s rented duplex on Blundell Road in Richmond the night of April 2, 1986, when the burglar alarm sounded at 2:52 a.m.

Agnes remembers that she, Tom, and Cindy were playing cards in the living room at the time – they often played until 3:00 in the morning on weekends because Cindy had trouble sleeping. “She was sitting right at the table with us when the alarm went off,” Agnes recalled. “She had never left the room.” When they checked the house, they found the glass window of the rear basement door had been completely removed.

Fearing for their friend’s life, the Woodcocks stayed with their Cindy every night beginning April 7.

There are other incidents mentioned in the book that also intrigued me like Police Officer Pat McBride answering the phone once at Cindy's house to hear a threatening call while Cindy was sitting at the kitchen table with him, another similar incident happening to Ozzie Kaban, and a time where Cindy's neighbor once went outside at around 10:00 at night and surprised a man in his backyard who was staring at Cindy's house. When the neighbor asked, "Who are you?" the man took off running, literally breaking the fence gate on his way out.

Again just little factoids that don't conclusively prove anything but still make me wonder.

Thanks for filling me in. Never knew it went to that extent. (The poor Cats, tedium of making the letters, the surveillance, etc.)

Amazing that it couldn't be proven one way or the other. As another poster said today's technology would've been a big help back then.

Now I believe that even if she did somehow kill herself, it was someone else's fault. I think they drove her crazy. I think they exploited her weaknesses. I think at least some if not all of the instances were real. (Some may have been a desperate attempt on Cindy's part to get someone to believe her.)

This is precisely the conclusion I have come to as well. After close to eight years of pondering it, this is what makes the most sense to me. I do think Cindy's fears were ultimately based in reality, but I also strongly feel she may have staged some of the events. I also think she ultimately committed suicide, and that her death was not a murder. But I am just as firm in my belief that there was a third party tormenting her. For what reason someone would do that, I don't know.

This is precisely the conclusion I have come to as well. After close to eight years of pondering it, this is what makes the most sense to me. I do think Cindy's fears were ultimately based in reality, but I also strongly feel she may have staged some of the events. I also think she ultimately committed suicide, and that her death was not a murder. But I am just as firm in my belief that there was a third party tormenting her. For what reason someone would do that, I don't know.This is about where I am, except that I'm not certain she was the one who killed herself in the end.

Either way, I do think there was a third party. Though now we'll never know who it was.

If someone did kill her, WHY would they make her take morphine??

There are many other ways to do it, and, because she was a nurse, she had access to the drug. It makes me lean more toward Cindy doing this all to herself.

Whether she staged the entire thing or someone went to great lengths to set this up....this is one of the most bizarre cases I have ever seen!

Also, she accused her ex husband of being her stalker. He always denied it and always testified at the inquest held after her death. He was 18 years her senior which would've put him in his 60s when she was killed.

People in their 60's can still be dangerous.

People in their 60's can still be dangerous.

Yep. Heck, this lady is 102! (97 at the time of the crime)
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/06/20/murder-charge-still-pending-against-woman-at-102/11113511/

I've never wavered in my belief that she was staging every single attack, and was doing this to herself. The odd part about the case is how police were never able to either prove the fact that she was staging everything or catch the actual perpetrator.

This is precisely the conclusion I have come to as well. After close to eight years of pondering it, this is what makes the most sense to me. I do think Cindy's fears were ultimately based in reality, but I also strongly feel she may have staged some of the events. I also think she ultimately committed suicide, and that her death was not a murder. But I am just as firm in my belief that there was a third party tormenting her. For what reason someone would do that, I don't know.

I agree here. This is the only scenario that makes sense. There were too many incidents that were witnessed by other parties for all of the tormenting to have been in her head. However, I do not feel that a killer would have killed her in the manner which she was found.

I've never wavered in my belief that she was staging every single attack, and was doing this to herself. The odd part about the case is how police were never able to either prove the fact that she was staging everything or catch the actual perpetrator.


I don't trust the cops at all in this one. One of them who was supposed to be investigating/protecting Cindy moved in and started a romantic relationship with her.

Something really odd is afoot.

So I would like to know if the man that the neighbor seen who fled, was real! I always wanted to believe Cindy.

One of them who was supposed to be investigating/protecting Cindy moved in and started a romantic relationship with her.

I always thought that was pretty bizarre.

We also have to wonder where Cindy actually was in the time her car was found abandoned and 2 weeks later when her body was found at the abandoned house. I don't think she was dead that whole time, how do we know that the abandoned house is where she really died? She could have died elsewhere and her body was moved to that location. Odd case no matter how you slice it!

I don't trust the cops at all in this one. One of them who was supposed to be investigating/protecting Cindy moved in and started a romantic relationship with her.

Something really odd is afoot.

Reading the books, that relationship didn't come across very bizarre to me at all. In fact, Pat McBride (the cop in question) was really one of the only cops who ever seemed to have any sympathy for Cindy.

A basic summary of that relationship: Towards the beginning of the harassment, he would check in on her from time to time. They started up a friendship. He was looking for a place to live and Cindy offered her guest bedroom. (It was the perfect scenario for her. She now had a tenant and didn't have to live alone. If someone was messing with her, what better roommate to have than a cop?) As time passed, they started a romance and it sounds like it had to have been pretty genuine because he asked her to marry him. But Cindy turned him down and told him she wasn't ready to take their relationship to the next level. He moved out shortly after but continued to check in on her from time to time.

It wasn't long before he met another woman, got married and started a family. I don't think he and Cindy had any more contact with each other the last 4-5 years of her life. It's not like they ended on awful terms but he had moved on with someone else while Cindy sunk deeper and deeper into despair because so few people believed her. It was kind of sad in a way because other than Ozzie Kaban, McBride was the only other member of law enforcement who was truly in Cindy's corner.

Could she have suffered from severe dissociative disorder? Did they determine how long she had been dead at the time the body was discovered?

Reading the books, that relationship didn't come across very bizarre to me at all. In fact, Pat McBride (the cop in question) was really one of the only cops who ever seemed to have any sympathy for Cindy.

A basic summary of that relationship: Towards the beginning of the harassment, he would check in on her from time to time. They started up a friendship. He was looking for a place to live and Cindy offered her guest bedroom. (It was the perfect scenario for her. She now had a tenant and didn't have to live alone. If someone was messing with her, what better roommate to have than a cop?) As time passed, they started a romance and it sounds like it had to have been pretty genuine because he asked her to marry him. But Cindy turned him down and told him she wasn't ready to take their relationship to the next level. He moved out shortly after but continued to check in on her from time to time.

It wasn't long before he met another woman, got married and started a family. I don't think he and Cindy had any more contact with each other the last 4-5 years of her life. It's not like they ended on awful terms but he had moved on with someone else while Cindy sunk deeper and deeper into despair because so few people believed her. It was kind of sad in a way because other than Ozzie Kaban, McBride was the only other member of law enforcement who was truly in Cindy's corner.

Wow, never knew about the relationship he had with Cindy, i wonder if any incidents happened while he was living there. Wonder if he saw any personality changes in Cindy from time to time?

In my opinion, i feel that Cindy was stalked at first because you have witnesses who were with Cindy during the incidents and there was no way she could have done them herself, unless (and this is going way too far) Cindy hired someone to do the harassment sometimes, it could also go as far as hiring someone to help her stage her death. I feel that she did have some mental issues after the incidents.

The divorce and these incidents may have put her mental state deeper and deeper into borderline personality disorder. I don't think she had dissociative identity disorder because it is very rare and usually manifests due to a traumatic childhood, such as emotional and sexual abuse when very young, i don't think her parents did such a thing. She may have been harassed for a few years but began to stage them to have someone believe her, and may have gone crazy and began to stage them to get attention from friends, family, police.

I twas mentioned that McBride moved on and got married, maybe this made Cindy want to seek out his attention but in a different way, and when she felt nobody believed her she just decided it was time to end her life.

The fact that she deposited a check really doesn't mean much because she may want to throw off people to make it seem as if she was kidnapped right after this. As stated before, she took about 80 pills, why would someone who was trying to kill her risk all that time, having her swallow 80 pills, when he/she could have gotten caught during this period.

And also the phone messages on her ex-husband's answering machine sounds like a woman disguising her voice, the second message definitely sounds like a woman. It may have been Cindy or someone she knew calling him, if you see the NBC version of the segment it shows more stuff, like Cindy's recording of her speaking about the harassment. Maybe they can compare her voice to that of the answering machine to see if there is similarity.

This is truly one of them most bizarre yet intriguing cases that have been featured and it may never be solved.

I've never wavered in my belief that she was staging every single attack, and was doing this to herself. The odd part about the case is how police were never able to either prove the fact that she was staging everything or catch the actual perpetrator.

Interesting. However, I know you think the Wackers were victims. Can I ask what the difference is for you?

I'll just say I have similar views on both cases, and I guess for me the difference is the fact that Cindy James had a documented history of mental instability, and there is no such evidence with the Wackers. Also, Cindy James acknowledged that she knew who was behind it, yet she didn't disclose who this person was. I always found that highly suspect. On the other hand, the Wackers didn't seem to know who was targeting them or why.

Interesting. However, I know you think the Wackers were victims. Can I ask what the difference is for you?

I'll just say I have similar views on both cases, and I guess for me the difference is the fact that Cindy James had a documented history of mental instability, and there is no such evidence with the Wackers. Also, Cindy James acknowledged that she knew who was behind it, yet she didn't disclose who this person was. I always found that highly suspect. On the other hand, the Wackers didn't seem to know who was targeting them or why.

I don't know if you did this on purpose, Justin, but I totally read the last sentence in "Robert Stack" voice-- "the Wackers didn't seem to know WHO was targeting them (ominous pause)... or why.

I still need to read the book about Cindy James. Initially, I thought she was murdered. However, details like not disclosing who she thought the perp was really do stick out as red flags...

I don't know if you did this on purpose, Justin, but I totally read the last sentence in "Robert Stack" voice-- "the Wackers didn't seem to know WHO was targeting them (ominous pause)... or why.

I think I watch the show so much it finds it's way into my writing style....

I'm not quite sure how to feel about that.

This is the show's most fascinating case. I firmly believe Cindy was stalked and murdered.

I recently re-watched the original uncut version of this segment and there was a line I'd never heard before from one of Cindy's family members about how it would have been impossible for Cindy's body to have been in that location the entire two weeks she was missing since a lot of traffic went through the area and someone would have seen her much sooner.

Maybe someone who's read the book can answer this, but did they ever determine how long Cindy had been dead when they found her? Were there any signs of decomposition? If Cindy wasn't dead those entire two weeks, then where was she during that time? It's easier me for believe she could have been held captive by an unknown assailant rather than simply hiding out two whole weeks planning an elaborate suicide, but given the circumstances, the latter scenario isn't out of the question.

I recently re-watched the original uncut version of this segment and there was a line I'd never heard before from one of Cindy's family members about how it would have been impossible for Cindy's body to have been in that location the entire two weeks she was missing since a lot of traffic went through the area and someone would have seen her much sooner.

Maybe someone who's read the book can answer this, but did they ever determine how long Cindy had been dead when they found her? Were there any signs of decomposition? If Cindy wasn't dead those entire two weeks, then where was she during that time? It's easier me for believe she could have been held captive by an unknown assailant rather than simply hiding out two whole weeks planning an elaborate suicide, but given the circumstances, the latter scenario isn't out of the question.

The death scene was adjacent to a busy street near a major intersection.

Here are some direct quotes from Neal Hall's book that might help out...

The death scene:

For pathologists and homicide investigators, a death scene is sacred. Once clues are disturbed, history cannot be recreated. But the clues at this scene were sparse. A McDonald’s cup was suspended in the brushes nearby while a soft drink straw was later found beneath the body. Both were tagged as evidence and would be examined in the lab. There was no syringe anywhere in the vicinity.

First inspection of the body at the death scene:


The body was in an advanced state of decomposition. The skin was drying and cracking – a condition known as mummification – and the corpse was skeletonizing in some spots. Det. Carlyle peered at one of the woman’s fingers, which appeared scratched to the bone by a finger of the other hand, the result, perhaps, of some involuntary action as the woman lost consciousness.

Information about a squatter who lived in the yard during that time frame:

Police also interviewed a man who was living in a blue van behind the abandoned house. Vasily Ufimstev, who spoke with a Russian accent, explained he had been living there for three weeks. That would mean he had been living within five meters of the body for at least a week, assuming James was not killed elsewhere and her body dumped. The squatter was not aware of the body until police and media arrived. Police noted the squatter cooked his meals on a fire-pit less than two meters from the body. Yet Ufimstev had never noticed any foul odor.

It should also be noted that the abandoned house on that lot was used as a party house by local high school kids and skinheads. It was confirmed by police that at least one party had taken place there one week before Cindy's corpse was found.

An experiment by Ozzie Kaban:

He attended the scene where Cindy’s body had been found to conduct an experiment that would test the effects of rodents and other animals on human flesh. Contacting the UBC zoology department, Kaban was told that pig meat would most closely resemble decomposition among human flesh. He then purchased about four kilograms of pork chops from a supermarket and left those on April 28, 1990 where Cindy’s body had been found. He then went back to take pictures every few days.

His findings? On the third day, April 30th, Kaban found his purchase had been attacked by rodents and birds. Two complete pork chops had been eaten or pecked at. On May 4th, more had been eaten and by May 13th (a full two weeks) the meat had disappeared entirely.

What did the morbid experiment prove?

“I could not understand how a body could be in the same location for two weeks and not be attacked by rodents and small animals known to frequent the Richmond area,” Kaban said. He mentioned he had talked to a neighbor adjacent to where Cindy’s body had been found and the man said he had trapped 12 rats within a year. Also, Kaban said, the house was frequented by high school kids and there was a man living behind the house, cooking his meals just two meters from the body. “I have a hard time believing no one would have found the body.”

After reading this passage, I just ordered the book.

Wow, thanks a lot for posting that passage, dynoguy88, that really clarifies a lot of information. Man, after reading about the decomposition and that numerous people were in the yard during that two-week period without seeing anything, I'm convinced Cindy died elsewhere and her body was placed in that lot.

Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean she was murdered. In fact, I can even visualize a Kurt Sova-type scenario in which Cindy committed suicide at another location or died of an accidental overdose, and someone else decided to dump her body in that location. I’ve always been of the mindset that Cindy likely staged some of the attacks, but couldn’t have been responsible for all of them. I’m still on the fence about whether it was murder or suicide, but given the strange circumstances surrounding the body and the unaccounted-for two-week window following Cindy’s disappearance, I’m convinced that an unknown party had to have been involved in her death somehow.

Dinoguy,

Just got my book and cannot put it down. This is absolutely fascinating and yet tragic at the same time. I'm about halfway through in the two hours and have a whole new perspective on the case.

Dinoguy,

Just got my book and cannot put it down. This is absolutely fascinating and yet tragic at the same time. I'm about halfway through in the two hours and have a whole new perspective on the case.

It is amazing, isn't it? It answers every single question (and then some) you might have just from watching the UM segment...like what was written on the note that was pinned with the knife through her hand in the 1984 attack?

Many other instances that UM never mentioned. And you could literally go through every single reenactment portrayed in the UM segment and point things out that were factually incorrect...although that really is nitpicking. UM's job was to give a basic summary of what happened which they technically did.

Despite how fascinating the book is, it still left me unable to take a definite side of murder vs. suicide.

It is amazing, isn't it? It answers every single question (and then some) you might have just from watching the UM segment...like what was written on the note that was pinned with the knife through her hand in the 1984 attack?

Many other instances that UM never mentioned. And you could literally go through every single reenactment portrayed in the UM segment and point things out that were factually incorrect...although that really is nitpicking. UM's job was to give a basic summary of what happened which they technically did.

Despite how fascinating the book is, it still left me unable to take a definite side of murder vs. suicide.


Oh my god, the filth written on those notes. But at the same time, I'm almost leaning toward suicide. Like I said, I'm half way through so my opinion may change as well.

which one of the books are you reading

which one of the books are you reading

Neal Hall's book, The Deaths of Cindy James.

Is the book back in print or did you get used copies? I'm looking in to getting it!

Neal Hall's book, The Deaths of Cindy James.

The guy who wrote that book is a skeptic and believes James did it all to herself. I haven't read the book, but he appeared in the UM segment and on other shows discussing his skepticism.

The guy who wrote that book is a skeptic and believes James did it all to herself. I haven't read the book, but he appeared in the UM segment and on other shows discussing his skepticism.

Oh jeez. Thanks for warning me!

I think i might have a copy of that as well. got it on amazon for less than a buck used, i think.

The guy who wrote that book is a skeptic and believes James did it all to herself. I haven't read the book, but he appeared in the UM segment and on other shows discussing his skepticism.

Despite this, he writes a fair and balanced book, writing out all the scenarios and the facts that we know. He doesn't take a side. So I still consider it a good read. By the time the media got involved and he was being interviewed, he had to give his opinion. When he was interviewed on W5, he said, "I now believe it was a suicide," which makes it sound like at one time, he felt differently, possibly at the time he wrote the book. But even if he felt she was murdered when he wrote it, he doesn't take a side. That's the bottom line.

Now the other book by Ian Mulgrew is obvious from beginning to end that he thinks it was suicide. And it's ironic that he titled the book, 'Who killed Cindy James?' when it's clear who he thinks it was. He even dedicates a whole chapter to going over every traumatic event in Cindy's life that might have triggered a mental illness that started her demise. It's one sided all the way through.

Is the book back in print or did you get used copies? I'm looking in to getting it!


Found a decent used copy on Amazon. There's a few on there now.

Interesting. However, I know you think the Wackers were victims. Can I ask what the difference is for you?

I'll just say I have similar views on both cases, and I guess for me the difference is the fact that Cindy James had a documented history of mental instability, and there is no such evidence with the Wackers. Also, Cindy James acknowledged that she knew who was behind it, yet she didn't disclose who this person was. I always found that highly suspect. On the other hand, the Wackers didn't seem to know who was targeting them or why.

Wow I know this is an older post, but I missed it a year ago.

I'm listening to RobinW's podcast about the Cindy James case right now. For me, the difference is that the Wackers had more than one eyewitness in this case. Granted it was their daughter who heard the knocking during the stakeout, but at least there is some evidence of the harassment campaign with the Wackers. And the Wackers got the police involved and were cooperative with giving information. Cindy's own PI said she wasn't being forthright with information which led the cops to become skeptical. I see similarities in the cases, but ultimately, Cindy James was committed to a mental hospital, and there is no evidence of mental illness with the Wackers, so it's easier, IMO to believe Cindy James was doing this to herself as opposed to the Wackers.

She was murdered.

I have one of the books finally and it's quite obvious that Cindy was very severely mentally ill. however i am starting to think it's possibly a bizarre twist of fate that she ended up dying the way she did. I do feel that she did incidents herself or at least instigated them...but the death itself I believe was done by someone else and might have been just an eerie coincidence that gets overlooked in the "did she didn't she" theories

Another interesting case. I listened to Robin W podcast. I agree with Robin W. It was likely a mixture of both. Cindy probably did the fire. I would say in the end most likely murdered. The body would have been noticed sooner if suicide. The way thebody was dumped indicated most likely murdered. Somebody had to have dumped the body in that location.

I am confused how anyone could think she was actually being harassed


there is no way someone could continue harassing someone like that without a single witness or never leaving behind a fingerprint or any sort of evidence. The harasser would have to be some kind of superhuman ninja.


not to mention this is the oddest harassment campaign ever. Apparently, months would go by without an incident


no, it is 100% obvious Cindy was doing this all to herself and she was extremely mentally ill. Munchausen syndrome is definitely something she had especially

It is 100% obvious she was murdered :cool:

After reading the book by Neal Hall I am convinced it was a suicide.

Chiming in to say, once again, that I believe Cindy was murdered.

This is the best (or most detailed) thread I've read on the case

http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?t=362081