I liked the show better when Rhoda left and then later Phyllis. The focus of the show then shifted away from Mary's private life to the job. Say what you will, but Lou Grant and Ted Baxter-focused episodes are a lot more interesting to me than Mary's interactions with Phyllis or Rhoda! Murray-centric episodes were okay too. They had to give him something to do every now and then.

No one ever really talks about how after Rhoda leaves the show become more male-centric, and then they later did the same after the first two seasons of Rhoda. These are supposedly great feminist groundbreaking woman-centric shows! Yet over time the femininity of both was downplayed to emphasize the lives of the male characters.

I'm glad the spinoffs happened. We got two great shows instead of one. But there will always be people that say Rhoda should have never left, I know.

I enjoyed the series before and after Rhoda. I did think that Mary needed a close friend in the later seasons. I have to say having Betty White come on as Sue Ann was pure gold.

I don't think viewers watching at the time would agree.
Viewership drastically dropped after season 5.
It was between Season 2 and 5 that MTM was at it's peak then.

I'm also not as into the later seasons like I am the earlier and mid seasons.
There was definitely a void with Mary not having a close friend to talk to.
I don't begrudge Rhoda leaving though.

I don't think viewers watching at the time would agree.
Viewership drastically dropped after season 5.
It was between Season 2 and 5 that MTM was at it's peak then.

I'm also not as into the later seasons like I am the earlier and mid seasons.
There was definitely a void with Mary not having a close friend to talk to.
I don't begrudge Rhoda leaving though.
I think a lot of my perspective had to do with the fact that I got into watching the show last year for the first time and I first saw the Season 5 through 7 episodes, so it was my first experience of MTM. Then when the show cycled back to the early years, the show was drastically different with Rhoda and Phyllis. Guess I just have too much of a bias because I'm a guy...I will agree when both the Mary Tyler Moore and Rhoda shows lost their femininity, viewership declined. But me being a guy, I just can't help but think the shows were getting better anyway. Can't relate to Rhoda and Mary, but I can relate to Ted and Lou. Especially Ted. :lol:

I liked MTM a lot better with Rhoda! Even though I loved Rhoda's show (I liked it better than the Mary Tyler Moore show actually, was happy Rhoda got her own show, it was good, but sad she left MTM ) . Being a girl, I liked how they hung out in her apartment, and talked about guys, and hoped guys would call, and if not just have fun, go out or hang out, whatever! ETC! I think all females can relate to this. The later episodes she had no female friends, just the guys at work, and DANG, the girl needed a break from the work place! And Phyllis leaving too! I loved Sue Ann, she was really funny, a great addition to the show, but not really Mary's friend! (shout out to Betty White, love ya Betty )! And than when Mary moved out of her original apartment, oh that was it for me, the show really went downhill IMO!

I liked MTM a lot better with Rhoda! Even though I loved Rhoda's show (I liked it better than the Mary Tyler Moore show actually, was happy Rhoda got her own show, it was good, but sad she left MTM ) . Being a girl, I liked how they hung out in her apartment, and talked about guys, and hoped guys would call, and if not just have fun, go out or hang out, whatever! ETC! I think all females can relate to this. The later episodes she had no female friends, just the guys at work, and DANG, the girl needed a break from the work place! And Phyllis leaving too! I loved Sue Ann, she was really funny, a great addition to the show, but not really Mary's friend! (shout out to Betty White, love ya Betty )! And than when Mary moved out of her original apartment, oh that was it for me, the show really went downhill IMO!
Watching the early episodes of MTM....it was clear they were making it about Mary and Rhoda and the office was just a sidenote, with Ted Baxter only appearing in one scene per episode. Bad idea. Ted Baxter was a far more interesting character and deserved more screen time. Luckily after Rhoda left we got to see more interesting storylines with Ted Baxter. It's a good thing they spun off Rhoda instead of Ted because I would have shifted to watching the Ted Baxter show and would have quit watching The Mary Tyler Moore Show altogether. :lol:

I remember watching TMTMS firsthand as a teen in the 70s and loving each and every minute; ALL of it was great. I loved Rhoda-she was an excellent complement to Mary, and if anything, the show was worse without her. I missed Rhoda when she left and was delighted Rhoda got a spin off.

Watching the early episodes of MTM....it was clear they were making it about Mary and Rhoda and the office was just a sidenote, with Ted Baxter only appearing in one scene per episode. Bad idea. Ted Baxter was a far more interesting character and deserved more screen time. Luckily after Rhoda left we got to see more interesting storylines with Ted Baxter. It's a good thing they spun off Rhoda instead of Ted because I would have shifted to watching the Ted Baxter show and would have quit watching The Mary Tyler Moore Show altogether. :lol:


Yes, Ted was really funny! :D

I remember watching TMTMS firsthand as a teen in the 70s and loving each and every minute; ALL of it was great. I loved Rhoda-she was an excellent complement to Mary, and if anything, the show was worse without her. I missed Rhoda when she left and was delighted Rhoda got a spin off.



Hi Oh Nuts :wave:


That is exactly how I feel!!! :) ;)

I couldn't get into MTM because it was presented as a workplace comedy but we would often see Mary at home all the time. That's why I liked Rhoda better

Like the Office was presented as a workplace comedy and that's exactly what it was

Watching the early episodes of MTM....it was clear they were making it about Mary and Rhoda and the office was just a sidenote, with Ted Baxter only appearing in one scene per episode. Bad idea. Ted Baxter was a far more interesting character and deserved more screen time. Luckily after Rhoda left we got to see more interesting storylines with Ted Baxter. It's a good thing they spun off Rhoda instead of Ted because I would have shifted to watching the Ted Baxter show and would have quit watching The Mary Tyler Moore Show altogether. :lol:


Did you like Ted Knight in Too close for comfort? As Henry Rush. He was a husband and father of two girls in their early 20's , and later had a son. He wrote for a cartoon strip " Cosmic Cow"!

I actually liked him better here than on MTM!!! He was a sweetheart as a hubby and father!!! :)

Did you like Ted Knight in Too close for comfort? As Henry Rush. He was a husband and father of two girls in their early 20's , and later had a son. He wrote for a cartoon strip " Cosmic Cow"!

I actually liked him better here than on MTM!!! He was a sweetheart as a hubby and father!!! :)

I caught quite a few episodes of this recently... good stuff, and great to see Ted Knight's charm as a normal, relatively sane person.

Did you like Ted Knight in Too close for comfort? As Henry Rush. He was a husband and father of two girls in their early 20's , and later had a son. He wrote for a cartoon strip " Cosmic Cow"!

I actually liked him better here than on MTM!!! He was a sweetheart as a hubby and father!!! :)
I watched it all the time when I got home from kindergarten when I was 5. That, Alice and Benson were important shows of my young childhood. Saw a few episodes of Too Close a few years back and it was okay. I like The Mary Tyler Moore Show more, of course. But if I stumbled upon TCFC on TV these days I would definitely watch it.

I couldn't get into MTM because it was presented as a workplace comedy but we would often see Mary at home all the time. That's why I liked Rhoda better

Like the Office was presented as a workplace comedy and that's exactly what it was
You know that's weird? I actually "Rhoda" more than MTM too. I never thought when I would see Rhoda and Mary interact together on MTM that I would ever like a show headlined by Rhoda, but I do. Strange Rhoda headlining alone is somehow better than Rhoda and Mary together. Truly the case of where the sum is not greater than the individual parts.

Maybe it's just because Brenda Morgenstern is so awesome and Julie Kavner is more of a comedian than Mary Tyler Moore if you ask me, so Rhoda and Brenda is a lot better than Mary and Rhoda in my personal opinion.

Mary is definitely the straight girl on the show. She is the straight person in an ensemble, and that's why MTM was so great in the later years. She was willing to let Lou and Murray and Ted and Sue have their moments while she was more a supporting character. It wasn't all Mary all the time.

You know that's weird? I actually "Rhoda" more than MTM too. I never thought when I would see Rhoda and Mary interact together on MTM that I would ever like a show headlined by Rhoda, but I do. Strange Rhoda headlining alone is somehow better than Rhoda and Mary together. Truly the case of where the sum is not greater than the individual parts.

Maybe it's just because Brenda Morgenstern is so awesome and Julie Kavner is more of a comedian than Mary Tyler Moore if you ask me, so Rhoda and Brenda is a lot better than Mary and Rhoda in my personal opinion.

Mary is definitely the straight girl on the show. She is the straight person in an ensemble, and that's why MTM was so great in the later years. She was willing to let Lou and Murray and Ted and Sue have their moments while she was more a supporting character. It wasn't all Mary all the time.


Exactly. you knew the Rhoda was the lead

I think a lot of my perspective had to do with the fact that I got into watching the show last year for the first time and I first saw the Season 5 through 7 episodes, so it was my first experience of MTM. Then when the show cycled back to the early years, the show was drastically different with Rhoda and Phyllis. Guess I just have too much of a bias because I'm a guy...I will agree when both the Mary Tyler Moore and Rhoda shows lost their femininity, viewership declined. But me being a guy, I just can't help but think the shows were getting better anyway. Can't relate to Rhoda and Mary, but I can relate to Ted and Lou. Especially Ted. :lol:

It's not just you; I've always felt the same way. I'm not a fan at all of the first two seasons. The interactions between Mary, Rhoda and Phyllis are usually just mildly amusing to me, and that was the focus of the show at that time. Season 3 was the first time the series delivered laugh-out-loud episodes, and it had something to do with more integration of the office into the plots. For one thing, Ted had developed from a one-dimensional cartoon early on into a three-dimensional character by the 3rd season, one of the greatest characters ever on television. And each season after that the show just kept getting better and better. Sue Ann was brought onboard and she's one of my favorite characters. The sixth and seventh seasons were my favorites. There's hardly an episode in the last two seasons that is less than hilarious, whereas the first two seasons the laughs are rare. The Mary Tyler Moore Show, to me, is the prime example of a show that would have been forgotten had it only been on those first two seasons as there was not much that was memorable. CBS stuck with it and let it develop and ultimately turn into a comedy classic. Ask people to list their favorite episodes or moments, other than "I've got spunk" in the pilot, people usually cite episodes from later on: "The Last Show" (S7); "Put on a Happy Face" (S4); "The Lars Affair" (Sue Ann's introduction, S4); "Sue Ann's Sister" (S7); "Mary's Insomnia" (S7); "Once I Had a Secret Love" (S6); "Will Mary Richards Go to Jail?" (S5); "Ted Baxter's Famous Broadcasters' School" (S5). The most famous episode of all is indisputably "Chuckles Bites the Dust" from Season Six.

Someone mentioned a later ratings decline to imply the show wasn't as good. Ratings are a factor of a number of things and don't necessarily mean anything about quality. That said, the highest annual rating TMTMS got was 24.0 in Season Five. And yes, its lowest ratings were in the seventh season, but it had the uninspired sitcom, Doc, as a lead-in at 8:30. The Jeffersons at 8:00, with a 21.0 rating, was the only CBS show on that night that landed in the Top 25 ratings (but The Jeffersons was barely in the Top 25, ranking 24th). And the low-rated Doc was sandwiched in between The Jeffersons and TMTMS. Then at mid-season, CBS juggled around its entire Saturday night schedule, except for The Carol Burnett Show, which likely just confused viewers. In contrast, when The Mary Tyler Moore Show was at its ratings peak a few years earlier, every show on CBS's Saturday night schedule was in the Top 30, starting with the consistently number-one rated All in the Family to kick off the night.

I will also point out that The Mary Tyler Moore Show won the Emmy for Outstanding Comedy Series three times, and they were three CONSECUTIVE times, which happened to be for the LAST THREE SEASONS. It was on a roll those final seasons!

It's not just you; I've always felt the same way. I'm not a fan at all of the first two seasons. The interactions between Mary, Rhoda and Phyllis are usually just mildly amusing to me, and that was the focus of the show at that time. Season 3 was the first time the series delivered laugh-out-loud episodes, and it had something to do with more integration of the office into the plots. For one thing, Ted had developed from a one-dimensional cartoon early on into a three-dimensional character by the 3rd season, one of the greatest characters ever on television. And each season after that the show just kept getting better and better. Sue Ann was brought onboard and she's one of my favorite characters. The sixth and seventh seasons were my favorites. There's hardly an episode in the last two seasons that is less than hilarious, whereas the first two seasons the laughs are rare. The Mary Tyler Moore Show, to me, is the prime example of a show that would have been forgotten had it only been on those first two seasons as there was not much that was memorable. CBS stuck with it and let it develop and ultimately turn into a comedy classic. Ask people to list their favorite episodes or moments, other than "I've got spunk" in the pilot, people usually cite episodes from later on: "The Last Show" (S7); "Put on a Happy Face" (S4); "The Lars Affair" (Sue Ann's introduction, S4); "Sue Ann's Sister" (S7); "Mary's Insomnia" (S7); "Once I Had a Secret Love" (S6); "Will Mary Richards Go to Jail?" (S5); "Ted Baxter's Famous Broadcasters' School" (S5). The most famous episode of all is indisputably "Chuckles Bites the Dust" from Season Six.

Someone mentioned a later ratings decline to imply the show wasn't as good. Ratings are a factor of a number of things and don't necessarily mean anything about quality. That said, the highest annual rating TMTMS got was 24.0 in Season Five. And yes, its lowest ratings were in the seventh season, but it had the uninspired sitcom, Doc, as a lead-in at 8:30. The Jeffersons at 8:00, with a 21.0 rating, was the only CBS show on that night that landed in the Top 25 ratings (but The Jeffersons was barely in the Top 25, ranking 24th). And the low-rated Doc was sandwiched in between The Jeffersons and TMTMS. Then at mid-season, CBS juggled around its entire Saturday night schedule, except for The Carol Burnett Show, which likely just confused viewers. In contrast, when The Mary Tyler Moore Show was at its ratings peak a few years earlier, every show on CBS's Saturday night schedule was in the Top 30, starting with the consistently number-one rated All in the Family to kick off the night.

I will also point out that The Mary Tyler Moore Show won the Emmy for Outstanding Comedy Series three times, and they were three CONSECUTIVE times, which happened to be for the LAST THREE SEASONS. It was on a roll those final seasons!

Watching Season 4 when Sue Ann Nivens was added to the cast but Rhoda still was on the show it felt like the show was getting too crowded. There were too many strong, interesting, well-defined characters that someone would have had to leave, and it was a perfect choice for that someone to be Rhoda.

And "Rhoda" was so damn enjoyable as a sitcom in its own right. It opened up MTM to expand more on Sue Ann, Ted, and Lou.

My favorite seasons were the first two and I like the interaction with Rhoda and Phyllis, but think it hit kind of a lull in the third season. The show was kind of tired in the third season with Mary's new professional look, new script consultants, less jazzy background music, and I get tired of Rhoda's mother's kvetching after a point. I don't really like Mary's parents much either. I don't know if the show improved after Rhoda left, but it gave MTM and VH some room to grow in their roles so it was probably a welcome challenge for them.