Its changed for me from time to time. But I will give you my top 3.

1) Kurt Sova,
because I just couldn't stop thinking of how hard it must have been for his parents. A very strange case indeed. My mind just boggled with the thought of those people at the party IF they knew something about the case how could they keep it hidden for all these years, especially this Susan chick! How can she just get on with her life. Sad that his parents died without knowing the truth! And to top it off Kurts acquaintance that died and BOTH were missing the shoe? Where the hells the shoe??????

2) Jay Cook & Tanya Van Cuylenborg.
A crazy man must have committed this crime! He has got to have committed similar stuff. The frightening pain they went through at the hands of this man. Jay had something done to him used in prison? My head keeps me up thinking what this could be? And I wonder who was killed first? It was most likely Jay so he could have his way with Tanya. She must have knew at that point she was going to die too.

3) Franklyn Floyd / Suzanne Davies / Sharron Marshall / Tonya Hughes / Micheal Hughes.
To start with does any one know if Franklyn is alive still? I often wonder if he would make a death bed confession as to where he actually got Suzanne from and if he killed Micheal or where he is. So many questions that rattle my brain with this one. I'm reading the book A Beautiful Child at the mo and its still gives me more things to lie awake about. Poor little Micheal. Does that man not have heart? Clearly not. If he would just answer those questions truthfully then the case would be solved and put to rest.

Any ways .. those are my top 3! I would love to hear yours?

I don't know about all night but sometimes I catch myself really wondering about the fates of Amy Billig, Tammy Lynn Leppert, and Tara Breckinridge.

I agree about Cook and Cuylenborg. I was walking to work recently and saw a zip tie on the ground. :( Made me think of this case instantly. Now we know the letter writer isn't the killer, but who is he? They have his DNA (I think) but so far haven't been able to figure out his identity.

Jeremy Bright.

FDF, Michael, and Sharon often resonates with me as well. FDF is still on death row, awaiting execution. I hope he'll talk, but if anything he'll just do it to try to delay his execution, just like Bundy tried at the last minute.

So many to name but a few others that sometimes pop into my head: Kurt Sova, Kurt McFall, Scott Johnson, the Octopus Murders, Orange Socks Murders, Richard Bocklage's whereabouts, and the Blind River Rest Stop murderer.

3) Franklyn Floyd / Suzanne Davies / Sharron Marshall / Tonya Hughes / Micheal Hughes.
To start with does any one know if Franklyn is alive still? I often wonder if he would make a death bed confession as to where he actually got Suzanne from and if he killed Micheal or where he is. So many questions that rattle my brain with this one. I'm reading the book A Beautiful Child at the mo and its still gives me more things to lie awake about. Poor little Micheal. Does that man not have heart? Clearly not. If he would just answer those questions truthfully then the case would be solved and put to rest.

I hate to sound like Mr. Negative but I don't expect any kind of confession from that horrible excuse for a man. His criminal record goes back 50 years and he has never, to my memory, admitted responsibility for any of the crimes he has committed. The fraud, the abductions, the molestations, the murders, the stabbings, the tortures, the child abuse...not even the 1962 incident where he raped a 4 year old girl, NOTHING.

That man is going to go to his grave believing that he did nothing wrong and that the world was always just out to get him. He can go to hell as far as I'm concerned.

Angela Hammond keeps me up now and again...

The blind river rest stop case-- I cannot get the dejected look of Gord out of my head sometimes.

The Christophe Day case-- that b-- of a mother kidnapping her son, then when he dies she doesn't tell the father and he has to find it out years later? I have strangled her many times in my head.

Circleville Letters . I'd love to read all the letters that started appearing from 1976 on. When you look at it as a whole, it's quite simple: a person mailing some letters. But how it spiraled into the events that the story is famous for keeps me scratcing my head.

Btw this forum should be organized and published as a book!

I agree about Cook and Cuylenborg. I was walking to work recently and saw a zip tie on the ground. :( Made me think of this case instantly.



Ironically yesterday I saw similar ties on the ground and had a similar thought !

2) Jay Cook & Tanya Van Cuylenborg.
A crazy man must have committed this crime! He has got to have committed similar stuff. The frightening pain they went through at the hands of this man. Jay had something done to him used in prison? My head keeps me up thinking what this could be? And I wonder who was killed first? It was most likely Jay so he could have his way with Tanya. She must have knew at that point she was going to die too.


They said the way Jay died and items found on him indicated the killer may have been in the prison sytem at some point. Regarding the killer having done something similar before , a similar thought has crossed my mind and so far I have heard that other couples disappeared and were found dead in Washington state prior to Jay and Tanya , I am still trying to track down the details but given the clinical nature of the crime the killer was most likely experienced and had learned from past mistakes by the time he targeted Jay & Tanya....

I find myself sometimes wondering what really happened to the likes of George Owens, Sneha Philip, Matthew Chase, and as the OP mentioned, Kurt Sova.

Btw this forum should be organized and published as a book!
Love the idea LOVE LOVE LOVE IT !!


Regarding the killer having done something similar before , a similar thought has crossed my mind and so far I have heard that other couples disappeared and were found dead in Washington state prior to Jay and Tanya , I am still trying to track down the details but given the clinical nature of the crime the killer was most likely experienced and had learned from past mistakes by the time he targeted Jay & Tanya....

Interesting! If you find any info I would love to read it too so please post link. The guy has got to have killed before and learned from experience. I bet hes some cocky smug guy too, lets face it he had a kill kit with him that day! He was fully prepared that day to kill some one. Gun, zip ties, ammo, gloves ect. He could well have passed by now.

I always wonder the only way most of the crimes on UM would be solved is by a death bed confession or clues left at the home of the person. I put my self in a loved ones position all the time thinking if they told me or I found something how hard would it be to report it. Obviously if it was a horrible hideous crime then you wouldn't take long to think about but the feelings of love just wouldn't go away. The shock would be unreal.
I love trying to put my self in someone elses shoes but i suppose you cant really know till it happens to you.

Just having Kurt Sovas picture in my mind keeps me awake. He looks like such a nice kid. I always think about him, I bet he was pressured into drinking to try and look COOL and fit in. When your an adult you just laugh and shrug it off but when your a kid you do pretty much anything to be one of the croud.

Good one WD Jeremy Bright is a very sad case.

I felt really sorry for Jeremys (Step?) Dad because i bet he feels such a huge amount of guilt that it happened when Jeremy was visiting him. I go on the wonder if his mother maybe could hold it against him perhaps? Correct me if I'm wrong but it wasnt till his Mother came down to pick him up that anyone noticed he was missing? Again its more of trying to put my self in someone elses shoes. I hope the story of him suffering isnt true also. The fear he must have felt if he was conscious that is.

I have twin boys who are almost 10 and once a year a massive fair comes to my town and I often think about when they are older and they ask to go on their own.

If anything reading or watching shows on UM should make people wiser.

There was a case where a lady left her baby in a car seat outside a portapotty. I just cringed at that and thought how bloody stupid and that no matter how quick you think your going to be you should never leave any children unattended for any amount of time. I hope lessons could be learnt by people who saw that case although I would of thought most the population would know it already. I wouldnt even ask a stranger to mind any of my children while i used the bathroom as a result of things Ive read about. You can never be too careful.
I often put my self in her shoes and try to feel the tremendous guilt she lives with every day, I respect her for carrying on mind. We hear nothing of the father on the segment. Putting my self in his shoes how long could he be angry that her mistake has lost him his daughter?

Tommy Zeigler and Mike Riemer/Diana Robertson.

Tommy Zeigler and Mike Riemer/Diana Robertson.These, Eric Tamiyasu, and just who exactly Franklin Delano Floyd really was are the ones I stop to think about the most.

- What happened, exactly, to Christi Nichols, and where she is.

- Kevin Ives and Don Henry. Tangled, tangled web.

- Bobbi Oberholtzer and Annette Schnee

- Marlena Childress

- Aileen Conway

- Ralph Probst

- Chuck Morgan

-

- Kevin Ives and Don Henry. Tangled, tangled web.



Top case!! .. did I hear some where that theres a book on this case? Any one know the name and if its a good read?

Top case!! .. did I hear some where that theres a book on this case? Any one know the name and if its a good read?


Yep, I have the kindle edition of the book, which was $10. It has some editing mistakes but still worth buying, IMO. There is sooooo much info in the book that they couldn't fit into the UM segment.

It's called The Boys on the Tracks: Death, denial, and a mother's crusade to bring her son's killers to justice

http://www.amazon.com/Boys-Tracks-mothers-crusade-justice-ebook/dp/B005EJAFZC/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1388591129&sr=1-2&keywords=boys+on+the+tracks

http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?t=179063&highlight=boys+tracks

Here's some stuff I said in the linked thread after I read the book a year ago:

On to my opinion of Fahmy Malak. [the medical examiner] Is he still alive? I actually HATE this guy. He's not only corrupt and incompetent but unbelievably cruel. Whenever he met with the boys' parents he was offensive, defensive, arrogant, condescending, and dismissive. He made the parents and everyone else who visited his office pose for polaroids to keep a photographic record of their visit. He also continually threatened to show the the parents autopsy photos of their kids every time they asked a question he didn't like.

His opinion was that they boys were so stoned, they passed out on the tracks and got run over and killed by the train. To prove the high level of marijuana in their systems he kept trying to show photos of body parts. In one meeting, one of the cops finally confiscated the multiple envelopes of autopsy photos Malak had placed in front of the parents to keep Malak from opening them and showing the photos.

Malak refused court orders but finally when he showed up to a hearing, he refused to testify unless he could "show his evidence" which of course was the gruesome photos. Attorneys tried to block the display, since it was not a closed proceeding and the audience included friends, relatives, and parents of the kids, but the judge allowed them to be shown.

The parents left the room for that part of the testimony. Malak had the photos blown up into poster sizes and used these to "prove" there was pot in the boys' blood. Just exactly HOW photos of violently severed body parts proved his blood testing samples showed excessive use of pot was never explained.

Besides the book, there was a straight to video movie. I replied to someone's comment with this:

I think he's referring to "Obstruction of Justice" (http://www.idfiles.com/ojvid.htm) which is a documentary that the Ives family helped make. Amazon says they have one new copy left here: http://www.amazon.com/Obstruction-Ju...ion+of+justice .

The first link I posted is to the movie's page on the family's official website, www.idfiles.com . The "i" is for Ives and the "d" is for Jean Duffey, a deputy prosecutor for the seventh judicial district, who knew about Dan Harmon's corruption and had to go into hiding for years.

I'm not sure the family is updating their site anymore but apparently they are still keeping the site's registration current. I haven't gone through the whole thing, but the last updates I could see were from back about 1999.

http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?t=179063&highlight=boys+tracks

Here's some stuff I said in the linked thread after I read the book a year ago:

On to my opinion of Fahmy Malak. [the medical examiner] Is he still alive? I actually HATE this guy. He's not only corrupt and incompetent but unbelievably cruel. Whenever he met with the boys' parents he was offensive, defensive, arrogant, condescending, and dismissive. He made the parents and everyone else who visited his office pose for polaroids to keep a photographic record of their visit. He also continually threatened to show the the parents autopsy photos of their kids every time they asked a question he didn't like.

His opinion was that they boys were so stoned, they passed out on the tracks and got run over and killed by the train. To prove the high level of marijuana in their systems he kept trying to show photos of body parts. In one meeting, one of the cops finally confiscated the multiple envelopes of autopsy photos Malak had placed in front of the parents to keep Malak from opening them and showing the photos.

Malak refused court orders but finally when he showed up to a hearing, he refused to testify unless he could "show his evidence" which of course was the gruesome photos. Attorneys tried to block the display, since it was not a closed proceeding and the audience included friends, relatives, and parents of the kids, but the judge allowed them to be shown.

The parents left the room for that part of the testimony. Malak had the photos blown up into poster sizes and used these to "prove" there was pot in the boys' blood. Just exactly HOW photos of violently severed body parts proved his blood testing samples showed excessive use of pot was never explained.

Besides the book, there was a straight to video movie. I replied to someone's comment with this:

I think he's referring to "Obstruction of Justice" (http://www.idfiles.com/ojvid.htm) which is a documentary that the Ives family helped make. Amazon says they have one new copy left here: http://www.amazon.com/Obstruction-Ju...ion+of+justice .

The first link I posted is to the movie's page on the family's official website, www.idfiles.com . The "i" is for Ives and the "d" is for Jean Duffey, a deputy prosecutor for the seventh judicial district, who knew about Dan Harmon's corruption and had to go into hiding for years.

I'm not sure the family is updating their site anymore but apparently they are still keeping the site's registration current. I haven't gone through the whole thing, but the last updates I could see were from back about 1999.

I just ordered this book, I've always wanted to read it. Does anyone know if somewhere in these threads there is a list of the books written based on UM episodes?

I just ordered this book, I've always wanted to read it. Does anyone know if somewhere in these threads there is a list of the books written based on UM episodes?

Yep, there is. Pretty sure there's another one out there too, but this is the original:

http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?t=149651

I would have put Ralph Probst as well, but from the segment it's fairly obvious who murdered him (or had him murdered).

Yep, there is. Pretty sure there's another one out there too, but this is the original:

http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?t=149651

Ooh thank you.

Yeah Kevin and don on the tracks is hard to forget. They were definitely murdered.

- Bobbi Oberholtzer and Annette Schnee

Yep. No matter how many years pass, that case still gets to me and it remains one of the scariest and heartbreaking segments featured on UM for so many reasons.

1. Jeff Oberholtzer seemed like one of the nicest interviewees ever. When he was interviewed 17 years later on Sensing Murder, he still had that same soft spoken voice and he spoke so affectionately towards Bobbi and his memories of her.

2. Several days before the murders, Jeff and Bobbi decided they wanted to start a family.

3. Bobbi was 29 and Annette was just 21 years old. They still had so much ahead of them in their lives.

4. The murders happened out in the remote areas of the Rocky Mountains in sub zero temperatures on one of the coldest nights of the year. When both of the women realized they were in trouble, there was nobody within miles that could help them or hear their screams. The fear both of them had must have been unbearable. Can you imagine trying to escape a mad man with a gun in the middle of nowhere in deep snow banks on a frigid cold night? Horror movies wish they could have material that scary.

5. Just to give you an idea of how cold it was that night, Bobbi's autopsy stated that the hypothermia killed her before her bullet wounds could.

6. According to the book, "Monster," when the search party member found Bobbi's body the next day, she was not lying face down, like what was depicted in the UM reenactment. She was found face up, her eyes open and the look of terror still on her face. I'm sure that poor guy must still be haunted by that sight after all these years. I know I would be.

7. While Bobbi's body was found in just one day, Annette's wasn't found until six months later. That means her loved ones spent half a year waiting and wondering what had happened to her until their worst fears were confirmed.

8. This Monday will mark the 32nd anniversary of the murders. The scum that killed these women have STILL not been charged so there is no closure for the women's family and friends. Over three decades with no closure must be absolutely horrible for those people.

Yep. No matter how many years pass, that case still gets to me and it remains one of the scariest and heartbreaking segments featured on UM for so many reasons.

1. Jeff Oberholtzer seemed like one of the nicest interviewees ever. When he was interviewed 17 years later on Sensing Murder, he still had that same soft spoken voice and he spoke so affectionately towards Bobbi and his memories of her.

2. Several days before the murders, Jeff and Bobbi decided they wanted to start a family.

3. Bobbi was 29 and Annette was just 21 years old. They still had so much ahead of them in their lives.

4. The murders happened out in the remote areas of the Rocky Mountains in sub zero temperatures on one of the coldest nights of the year. When both of the women realized they were in trouble, there was nobody within miles that could help them or hear their screams. The fear both of them had must have been unbearable. Can you imagine trying to escape a mad man with a gun in the middle of nowhere in deep snow banks on a frigid cold night? Horror movies wish they could have material that scary.

5. Just to give you an idea of how cold it was that night, Bobbi's autopsy stated that the hypothermia killed her before her bullet wounds could.

6. According to the book, "Monster," when the search party member found Bobbi's body the next day, she was not lying face down, like what was depicted in the UM reenactment. She was found face up, her eyes open and the look of terror still on her face. I'm sure that poor guy must still be haunted by that sight after all these years. I know I would be.

7. While Bobbi's body was found in just one day, Annette's wasn't found until six months later. That means her loved ones spent half a year waiting and wondering what had happened to her until their worst fears were confirmed.

8. This Monday will mark the 32nd anniversary of the murders. The scum that killed these women have STILL not been charged so there is no closure for the women's family and friends. Over three decades with no closure must be absolutely horrible for those people.

Yeah,this case is quite shocking and has so many elements to it .....anyway
regarding

8. given what he tried to do on that fateful night this guy probably was prolific - kinda like when Ted Bundy kidnapped two girls from that Lake in one day- therefore he probably got caught by some other agency somewere and I would bet my bottom dollar he has spent a lot of time in jail for similar crimes before and after the Breckenridge crimes.

6. Whether the killer was haunted by Bobby or not is a interesting matter but if its any consolation here are a few other interesting things to consider (1) I`m sure the busted nose he got from Bobby hitting him with the brass weapon must have done him up good ! (2) this just occured to me - Annette had earlier picked up a prescription for her yeast infection...chances are Annette`s killer may have caught it when he forced himself on her ......

8. Thanks for reminding us that the anniversary is Monday its amazing how old this case now is , one tantalizing detail is who was the man in the picture found in the backpack ?

(2) this just occured to me - Annette had earlier picked up a prescription for her yeast infection...chances are Annette`s killer may have caught it when he forced himself on her ......


I didn't know that she'd had a yeast infection. That's just awful and I can only imagine the utter pain she was in while trying to run away. It's a wonder she was able to run at all after the attack, but maybe it was survival instinct. :( That's a very good catch that the killer may have been suffering from an infection as a result. Maybe he would have told a spouse, girlfriend, or doctor...

I didn't know that she'd had a yeast infection. That's just awful and I can only imagine the utter pain she was in while trying to run away. It's a wonder she was able to run at all after the attack, but maybe it was survival instinct. :( That's a very good catch that the killer may have been suffering from an infection as a result. Maybe he would have told a spouse, girlfriend, or doctor...

The yeast infection was mentioned in the book .....funny enough if you look up the symptoms of yeast infection in men the symptoms are very interesting ! :lol:

I would love to have listed them here but I will spare people the blushes .....lets just say if the killer caught it, it would have made him think twice about trying stuff like what he did to Annette to any other person again! :eek:

The yeast infection was mentioned in the book .....funny enough if you look up the symptoms of yeast infection in men the symptoms are very interesting ! :lol:

I would love to have listed them here but I will spare people the blushes .....lets just say if the killer caught it, it would have made him think twice about trying stuff like what he did to Annette to any other person again! :eek:
:eek: I had to look it up but I'm sure if he had a partner at that time or shared it with anyone, they would remember! He probably would have gone to a physician to get the condition treated. I know HIPAA is in place, but I wonder if LE can override that for the sake of an investigation.

:eek: I had to look it up but I'm sure if he had a partner at that time or shared it with anyone, they would remember! He probably would have gone to a physician to get the condition treated. I know HIPAA is in place, but I wonder if LE can override that for the sake of an investigation.

Yes, there are provisions in HIPAA where law enforcement can get access to medical records without the patient's permission for different reasons. Investigating murders would be a good reason, imo.

Also, HIPAA was enacted in 1994, I think, and these murders happened before then. I don't know if it retroactively covers patient privacy or not. Before HIPAA, I still don't think just anyone could get access to patient records, but surely law enforcement still could.

Some yucky STD talk:
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If this guy got a yeast infection from one of his victims, would he even have to go to the doctor to get it treated?

Back then, women had to go to the gynecologist to be diagnosed, have a prescription written for the meds, and then go to the pharmacy to have the script filled.

But guys just went to the store and got antifungal jock itch cream over the counter. He could have treated it himself and no one would have known. Any sexual partner he may have passed it to wouldn't suspect that he got it from a victim or even an affair because it's fairly common to pass between partners, even in monogamous relationships. Also people who are not sexually active can get it, as it's not really a sexually transmitted disease.

6. Whether the killer was haunted by Bobby or not is a interesting matter but if its any consolation here are a few other interesting things to consider (1) I`m sure the busted nose he got from Bobby hitting him with the brass weapon must have done him up good ! (2) this just occured to me - Annette had earlier picked up a prescription for her yeast infection...chances are Annette`s killer may have caught it when he forced himself on her ......

8. Thanks for reminding us that the anniversary is Monday its amazing how old this case now is , one tantalizing detail is who was the man in the picture found in the backpack ?

I wasn't referring to the killer being haunted. I was talking about the poor guy, Jeff's friend, who was part of the search party who found Bobbi's body. That image, and the look on her face, would be pretty scary.

The book "Monster," never mentioned Annette's prescription being for a yeast infection. That must be in the other book that I haven't read. In Monster, it said Annette wasn't feeling well and she had a bad cold at the time. She picked up cigarettes and her prescription at the pharmacy with the dark haired woman, who STILL has yet to be identified.

I wasn't referring to the killer being haunted. I was talking about the poor guy, Jeff's friend, who was part of the search party who found Bobbi's body. That image, and the look on her face, would be pretty scary.

The book "Monster," never mentioned Annette's prescription being for a yeast infection. That must be in the other book that I haven't read. In Monster, it said Annette wasn't feeling well and she had a bad cold at the time. She picked up cigarettes and her prescription at the pharmacy with the dark haired woman, who STILL has yet to be identified.

Aahh.. I thought you meant the killer was haunted by Bobbie :confused: , yeah I bet Jeff`s friend was haunted by what he saw ....

When I said book, you are indeed correct, I was referring to another book i.e. Murderers amongst us - the book says Annette went to a medical centre for the yeast infection and then to the drug store for the prescription, the book also revealed interesting details about allegations Jeff`s brother made about Bobby and Jeff`s relationship which kinda explains why detectives first looked harshly at Jeff and interestingly enough Jeff says some revealing things about his brother !

As an interesting sidenote that book also features some cases profiled on UM like Jay Cook & Tanya , Dwayne McCorkendale as well as other cases similar to those featured in UM -- its worth reading ! :)

She picked up cigarettes and her prescription at the pharmacy with the dark haired woman, who STILL has yet to be identified.

That woman was described as someone who looked like she had been "camping out" , I suspect she was probably passing through town just like Jeff`s friend who met Jeff on the day of the murders and wasnt traced until around 1991 ...... I guess its not too un-common in places like Breckenridge to have people who drift through the area at such times of the year .....

Aahh.. I thought you meant the killer was haunted by Bobbie :confused: , yeah I bet Jeff`s friend was haunted by what he saw ....

When I said book, you are indeed correct, I was referring to another book i.e. Murderers amongst us - the book says Annette went to a medical centre for the yeast infection and then to the drug store for the prescription, the book also revealed interesting details about allegations Jeff`s brother made about Bobby and Jeff`s relationship which kinda explains why detectives first looked harshly at Jeff and interestingly enough Jeff says some revealing things about his brother !

As an interesting sidenote that book also features some cases profiled on UM like Jay Cook & Tanya , Dwayne McCorkendale as well as other cases similar to those featured in UM -- its worth reading ! :)

I need to get that book. I'll see if its on Amazon.

The case of O'Neal Moore is another one that's always bothered me. The prime suspect in the case died in 2003, never being charged with the murder. Very sad.

There was a segment where a female victim, "Debbie", was kidnapped and subsequently raped, beaten, shot in the face and left for dead. She was discovered afterward by two law enforcement officers as she stumbled toward the highway from the wooded area where the attack took place. The re-enactment was quite graphic, due to the obviously brutal nature of the crime, and gives me chills to this very day whenever I view it.

Here is more information about this case.

http://unsolvedmysteries.wikia.com/wiki/Debbie

There was a segment where a female victim, "Debbie", was kidnapped and subsequently raped, beaten, shot in the face and left for dead. She was discovered afterward by two law enforcement officers as she stumbled toward the highway from the wooded area where the attack took place. The re-enactment was quite graphic, due to the obviously brutal nature of the crime, and gives me chills to this very day whenever I view it.

Here is more information about this case.

http://unsolvedmysteries.wikia.com/wiki/Debbie

That one has always stuck with me too. I cannot imagine the excruciating pain she must have experienced throughout the ordeal and the medical care that followed. Thank God she survived.

I have always wondered what became of her attacker--I've actually always just wondered lots of things about her attacker in general. Was he ever imprisoned for that murder he bragged about committing in New York (or was that claim even true to begin with)? Why did his belongings smell like petroleum? Why did he drink throughout the ordeal? (This would seem to signify someone who was, at some level, uncomfortable with carrying out the experience while sober.)

I believe RS stated at the end of the segment that a DNA sample from the attacker was available. I'm a little shocked there hasn't been any match, my thought being that someone that brazen might be pretty likely to commit another similar crime. On the other hand, his drinking may indicate some degree of guilt or some sort of inability to cope with his actions. Perhaps he may even have committed suicide, unfortunately. The possibilities seem endless with this one.

The yeast infection was mentioned in the book .....funny enough if you look up the symptoms of yeast infection in men the symptoms are very interesting ! :lol:

I would love to have listed them here but I will spare people the blushes .....lets just say if the killer caught it, it would have made him think twice about trying stuff like what he did to Annette to any other person again! :eek:

Penile yeast infections are very rare. They are also often asymptomatic. When it comes to infections of the genitals and reproductive system, women are almost always far more susceptible than are men. It's just the way we're built--literally.

A single contact usually will not result in a candida infection. It's when a man continues to have sexual contact with a partner with recurrent infections that he acquires it.

Serial rapists actually acquire STDs and STIs quite frequently (especially if his victims are often selected from among prostitutes) and will continue to commit crimes. It's horrifying.

http://webapps6.doc.state.nc.us/opi/viewoffender.do?method=view&offenderID=0074612&searchLastName=ch&searchFirstName=e&listurl=pagelistoffendersearchresults&listpage=1

This guy is the one who I believe is responsible for "Debbie's" attack.

I would say the case that haunts me the most is the disappearance of Wendy Camp, Cynthia Britto and Lisa Kregear. I keep imaging the horror they must have felt when they realized Beverly Noe wasn't taking them back to the house. I wonder how long it was before they were murdered. They must have felt helpless being out there in a rural setting (if thats where they were killed) with no cellphones and no one knew where they were. Plus its still hard to imagine that they murdered a 5 year old girl. :(

http://webapps6.doc.state.nc.us/opi/viewoffender.do?method=view&offenderID=0074612&searchLastName=ch&searchFirstName=e&listurl=pagelistoffendersearchresults&listpage=1

This guy is the one who I believe is responsible for "Debbie's" attack.
Very interesting. I see that this individual has a history of convictions similar/identical to the crimes perpetrated against "Debbie." His other crimes also took place during the window of time when this attack occurred. For what it is worth, his age and race seem to match the description of the perpetrator. This, of course, is entirely circumstantial, and I have doubts as to whether or not this would be enough to convict in this case. Do you know of other information that would link him to the crime? Out of curiosity, what makes you think that this is the guy? Don't get me wrong, I applaud your research on this, but how on earth were you able to find the information on this inmate in order to make your claim? Since this guy is incarcerated were they able to match his DNA to "Debbie's" case?

http://webapps6.doc.state.nc.us/opi/viewoffender.do?method=view&offenderID=0074612&searchLastName=ch&searchFirstName=e&listurl=pagelistoffendersearchresults&listpage=1

This guy is the one who I believe is responsible for "Debbie's" attack.

I thought I remember a discussion about this in one of the "Debbie" threads. I forget why or how Cherry came up. Might have to go back and dig.

ETA: Yes, here it is. Further discussion on "Debbie's" case here if you're interested, Brock.

http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?t=217607&page=3

I read an article about "Debbies" attack online, and it named Ernest Cherry as a person of interest in her case. He attacked women in similar ways, all within the same county that "Debbie" was attacked in, IIRC. And he resembles the sketch too.

That murdered unidentified Sumter County couple from 1976.

I even put together a huge package to send to renowned psychic Kim Russo, but the package came back as "not being accepted by Lifetime channel", because they think the package involves story or movie submissions, when it doesn't.

Penile yeast infections are very rare. They are also often asymptomatic. When it comes to infections of the genitals and reproductive system, women are almost always far more susceptible than are men. It's just the way we're built--literally.

A single contact usually will not result in a candida infection. It's when a man continues to have sexual contact with a partner with recurrent infections that he acquires it.

Serial rapists actually acquire STDs and STIs quite frequently (especially if his victims are often selected from among prostitutes) and will continue to commit crimes. It's horrifying.

And the yeast infection goes on and on, 'cause most doctors don't also treat the partner.

A big thanks to MegTheEgg86 for mentioning the book 'Murderers Among Us.' I bought the book off of Amazon and I read the entry for Bobbie Oberholtzer and Annette Schnee.

The entry is only about 15 pages long, too short to give a case as serious as this the kind of detail it deserves. From an investigation point of view, it doesn't add anything that we didn't already know. But it's got minor details from Jeff and Bobbie's personal life that are kind of interesting, even though they don't really have anything to do with the murders. For instance, it mentions that Bobbie got pregnant when she was a senior in high school and she missed her graduation because she was away giving birth. She married the baby's father but given how young the couple was, the marriage didn't last long and they divorced at age 22. Not long after, Bobbie started dating Jeff and four years later, they were married. Bobbie's ex got full custody of their baby. Again, nothing relevant to the case but it's an interesting back story I never knew.

Now on to the disturbing facts brought up in the book.

1. The police response to Bobbie's disappearance was bad on epic proportions. Jeff first reported Bobbie missing at 3:30 a.m. It was too early to file a report. I don't fault them here because back in those days, a person had to be missing for multiple days before police would even think of getting involved. But several hours later, Jeff and his friends returned to the police to report Bobbie missing again, this time with some of her belongings they had found that had been strewn across the highway including her backpack and mitten that was covered with blood. Even with this evidence, the police did nothing. The sheriff made no attempt to join in the search for Bobbie. Even more infuriating, the deputy that Jeff had spoken to told him to go home because Bobbie had most likely decided to split. This is why Jeff and his friends had to do all the work on their own; the questioning, the investigating, the search party. The police didn't do a thing until after Bobbie's body was found which ended up being just a few hours later.

2. In the UM segment, Jeff briefly mentions that his wife wouldn't have gotten into a vehicle with just anyone while out hitchhiking. In this book, he is adamant repeatedly that Bobbie would never get a ride from a complete stranger. Everyone in town knew each other and the people you weren't exactly close friends with, you still knew as locals and people you could trust with a ride. (This was small town in the early 80's. A different time.) A bartender at the pub Bobbie was having drinks at before she left to hitch home told police that Bobbie was annoyed that her two friends weren't making any effort to leave. They were the ones who were originally going to drive her home and when it looked as though they wanted to make a night out of it, she told the bartender that she was leaving and don't even bother telling her friends that she had left. Jeff discounted the bartender's story because it made no sense to him. In his own words...

"She knew I was at home. The thing that sticks in my craw is that no locals hitchhiked over to Alma at that time of night, especially in such horrible weather conditions. I believe she walked out in the hall to the payphones and saw someone she knew and they left together. That's why she didn't go back in the bar. It was 30 below that night and the wind was blowing hard. There was absolutely no way she was going to go outside hitchhiking home when she could have made a call to me to come and get her."

3. There was hardly any mention of the orange socks at both crimes scenes. That was always one of the most fascinating things about these crimes and UM fans always refer to this case as 'The Orange Sock Murders,' but the book didn't seem interested in that factoid.

4. Lastly, the most surprising and depressing accusations from Jeff's brother Jamie and his wife Cindy. They apparently believe that Jeff is the killer of the women. A direct quote from Jamie....

"I can't prove it. All the evidence is what you would call circumstantial. But I believe he killed her."

Jamie and Cindy claim that Jeff was a womanizer. They claim that the marriage was always a nightmare. They said that 4 days before the murder, Jeff had asked Bobbie to bring home a pizza for dinner. She ended up being an hour late, the pizza was cold, so he got angry, took a swing at her, missed and punched a hole in the wall. Jeff claims they argued over the dinner but it was nothing more than that and Jamie doesn't have a leg to stand on with that accusation saying, "We bickered over cold pizza so I decided to murder her? Does that make sense?"

Jamie and Cindy also claim that they found a note in the Oberholtzer home that was written by Bobbie paraphrasing: "Jeff, if you kill me today, how can I have your baby tomorrow?" They said they gave the note to the police but the police and investigators claim they never received any such note. And given how they spent 7 years doing everything in their power to bust Jeff for the murders, I highly doubt they would have intentionally lost such a damning piece of evidence. All reports from Jeff and Bobbie's friends say they had no idea what Jamie and Cindy were talking about and that they never saw any evidence that the marriage was the nightmare described.

I have to say, I can see why 'Unsolved Mysteries', 'Sensing Murder' and the book 'Monster,' decided to pay no attention to Jamie and Cindy Oberholtzer. To put it gently, they sound like a couple of nuts. Cindy in particular doesn't sound like a person who is all...there. Case in point: She says shortly after the murders, she was woken up in the middle of the night by an evil spirit she named, Mr. Death. She says it's not the occult. She just so happens to always see spirits because they enjoy saying hello to her. She says Mr. Death was dark, 7 feet tall, stood at the foot of her bed that night and they made eye contact with each other for seven straight hours. In her mind, the spirit wanted vengeance against Jeff for killing Bobbie. Ummmmmm.....O.K. I don't think there's an emoticon that can accurately describe my response to that other than :rolleyes:

As detective Larry Crompton has said...'he is still out there and I will never be able to get it out of my mind until there is closure'.

There isn't a single case that comes close to this one and if you know the case you are nodding in agreement right now.

Coincidentally, I'm reading Murderers Among Us right now.

Probably my 2nd read in the last couple years. I had to dig it out of storage boxes.

Why are Jeff's brother and sister in law, Jaime and Cindy, so desperate to pin these murders on Jeff? Even to the point of possibly lying about evidence (the "if you kill me" note, claiming Bobbie and Jeff's marriage was a nightmare when it wasn't, etc).

They came across as so bizarre that they seem like suspects trying to throw off investigators. I wonder if they have a good alibi.

Jasper Watkins, the old man found dead inside a duffel bag. They showed his morgue photo and a computer-enhanced composite. Still wondering which pic was scarier. Had nightmares for years about that case.

I still think of Angela Hammond, Jeremy Bright, Jodi Huisentruit, Gordon Page Jr, Selena Edon and several other missing persons cases. I often wonder where they are and when they'll be found so their families can have a sense of closure.

A big thanks to MegTheEgg86 for mentioning the book 'Murderers Among Us.' I bought the book off of Amazon and I read the entry for Bobbie Oberholtzer and Annette Schnee.

The entry is only about 15 pages long, too short to give a case as serious as this the kind of detail it deserves. From an investigation point of view, it doesn't add anything that we didn't already know. But it's got minor details from Jeff and Bobbie's personal life that are kind of interesting, even though they don't really have anything to do with the murders. For instance, it mentions that Bobbie got pregnant when she was a senior in high school and she missed her graduation because she was away giving birth. She married the baby's father but given how young the couple was, the marriage didn't last long and they divorced at age 22. Not long after, Bobbie started dating Jeff and four years later, they were married. Bobbie's ex got full custody of their baby. Again, nothing relevant to the case but it's an interesting back story I never knew.

Now on to the disturbing facts brought up in the book.

1. The police response to Bobbie's disappearance was bad on epic proportions. Jeff first reported Bobbie missing at 3:30 a.m. It was too early to file a report. I don't fault them here because back in those days, a person had to be missing for multiple days before police would even think of getting involved. But several hours later, Jeff and his friends returned to the police to report Bobbie missing again, this time with some of her belongings they had found that had been strewn across the highway including her backpack and mitten that was covered with blood. Even with this evidence, the police did nothing. The sheriff made no attempt to join in the search for Bobbie. Even more infuriating, the deputy that Jeff had spoken to told him to go home because Bobbie had most likely decided to split. This is why Jeff and his friends had to do all the work on their own; the questioning, the investigating, the search party. The police didn't do a thing until after Bobbie's body was found which ended up being just a few hours later.

2. In the UM segment, Jeff briefly mentions that his wife wouldn't have gotten into a vehicle with just anyone while out hitchhiking. In this book, he is adamant repeatedly that Bobbie would never get a ride from a complete stranger. Everyone in town knew each other and the people you weren't exactly close friends with, you still knew as locals and people you could trust with a ride. (This was small town in the early 80's. A different time.) A bartender at the pub Bobbie was having drinks at before she left to hitch home told police that Bobbie was annoyed that her two friends weren't making any effort to leave. They were the ones who were originally going to drive her home and when it looked as though they wanted to make a night out of it, she told the bartender that she was leaving and don't even bother telling her friends that she had left. Jeff discounted the bartender's story because it made no sense to him. In his own words...

"She knew I was at home. The thing that sticks in my craw is that no locals hitchhiked over to Alma at that time of night, especially in such horrible weather conditions. I believe she walked out in the hall to the payphones and saw someone she knew and they left together. That's why she didn't go back in the bar. It was 30 below that night and the wind was blowing hard. There was absolutely no way she was going to go outside hitchhiking home when she could have made a call to me to come and get her."

3. There was hardly any mention of the orange socks at both crimes scenes. That was always one of the most fascinating things about these crimes and UM fans always refer to this case as 'The Orange Sock Murders,' but the book didn't seem interested in that factoid.

4. Lastly, the most surprising and depressing accusations from Jeff's brother Jamie and his wife Cindy. They apparently believe that Jeff is the killer of the women. A direct quote from Jamie....

"I can't prove it. All the evidence is what you would call circumstantial. But I believe he killed her."

Jamie and Cindy claim that Jeff was a womanizer. They claim that the marriage was always a nightmare. They said that 4 days before the murder, Jeff had asked Bobbie to bring home a pizza for dinner. She ended up being an hour late, the pizza was cold, so he got angry, took a swing at her, missed and punched a hole in the wall. Jeff claims they argued over the dinner but it was nothing more than that and Jamie doesn't have a leg to stand on with that accusation saying, "We bickered over cold pizza so I decided to murder her? Does that make sense?"

Jamie and Cindy also claim that they found a note in the Oberholtzer home that was written by Bobbie paraphrasing: "Jeff, if you kill me today, how can I have your baby tomorrow?" They said they gave the note to the police but the police and investigators claim they never received any such note. And given how they spent 7 years doing everything in their power to bust Jeff for the murders, I highly doubt they would have intentionally lost such a damning piece of evidence. All reports from Jeff and Bobbie's friends say they had no idea what Jamie and Cindy were talking about and that they never saw any evidence that the marriage was the nightmare described.

I have to say, I can see why 'Unsolved Mysteries', 'Sensing Murder' and the book 'Monster,' decided to pay no attention to Jamie and Cindy Oberholtzer. To put it gently, they sound like a couple of nuts. Cindy in particular doesn't sound like a person who is all...there. Case in point: She says shortly after the murders, she was woken up in the middle of the night by an evil spirit she named, Mr. Death. She says it's not the occult. She just so happens to always see spirits because they enjoy saying hello to her. She says Mr. Death was dark, 7 feet tall, stood at the foot of her bed that night and they made eye contact with each other for seven straight hours. In her mind, the spirit wanted vengeance against Jeff for killing Bobbie. Ummmmmm.....O.K. I don't think there's an emoticon that can accurately describe my response to that other than :rolleyes:
...wow, I'm pretty floored. Thanks for sharing this info dynoguy!

Firstly, I had no idea Bobbie was married before. Did she keep in touch with her child and ex at all?

Now to the flabbergasting part:

1) The police did nothing even after the bloody belongings were found? :mad: I guess I shouldn't be surprised, considering this is the same group that focused on Jeff and only Jeff.

2) I think Jeff's theory makes sense. It could have been someone she vaguely knew and trusted enough to get in the car with. Maybe because it was -30 and the weather conditions were bad she preferred to do that rather than call Jeff to come get her. It could have been someone she had hitched with before, even (a chilling though). I wonder what the odds are that the killer is a local resident. He DID know about those scenic overlooks and deadend roads that he took both victims down.

3) I'm surprised the orange socks weren't mentioned, either. They provide another huge link between the murders.

4) This part really pissed me off. I think it's clear that these two are being intentionally deceitful, considering that no one else close to the couple was able to corroborate any of their accusations at all. LE was determined to pin the crime on Jeff-- they never would have let that note slip through the cracks. And the cold pizza thing is the silliest thing I've heard. ''He got mad about cold pizza, he totally killed her!''

I agree with your assessment of Cindy. 7 hours making eye contact with a spirit...yeah. Not all there.

Maybe if just one other person came forward and said that Jeff was a womanizer or their marriage was nightmarish, then they wouldn't seem like such liars. I know that's harsh of me to say, but they just seem out to get attention and railroad Jeff. I wonder what their relationship was with him before the crime occured? Why would they want revenge on him so badly?

...wow, I'm pretty floored. Thanks for sharing this info dynoguy!

Firstly, I had no idea Bobbie was married before. Did she keep in touch with her child and ex at all?

Now to the flabbergasting part:

1) The police did nothing even after the bloody belongings were found? :mad: I guess I shouldn't be surprised, considering this is the same group that focused on Jeff and only Jeff.

2) I think Jeff's theory makes sense. It could have been someone she vaguely knew and trusted enough to get in the car with. Maybe because it was -30 and the weather conditions were bad she preferred to do that rather than call Jeff to come get her. It could have been someone she had hitched with before, even (a chilling though). I wonder what the odds are that the killer is a local resident. He DID know about those scenic overlooks and deadend roads that he took both victims down.

3) I'm surprised the orange socks weren't mentioned, either. They provide another huge link between the murders.

4) This part really pissed me off. I think it's clear that these two are being intentionally deceitful, considering that no one else close to the couple was able to corroborate any of their accusations at all. LE was determined to pin the crime on Jeff-- they never would have let that note slip through the cracks. And the cold pizza thing is the silliest thing I've heard. ''He got mad about cold pizza, he totally killed her!''

I agree with your assessment of Cindy. 7 hours making eye contact with a spirit...yeah. Not all there.

Maybe if just one other person came forward and said that Jeff was a womanizer or their marriage was nightmarish, then they wouldn't seem like such liars. I know that's harsh of me to say, but they just seem out to get attention and railroad Jeff. I wonder what their relationship was with him before the crime occured? Why would they want revenge on him so badly?

Nothing else is mentioned about the first marriage. Since they were teenagers, I guess it's not surprising it didn't last. But nothing else is mentioned as to why the husband was awarded custody of their baby and how much contact Bobbie had with her over the next few years after Bobbie and Jeff moved from Wisconsin to Colorado. Bobbie named the baby Jackie and today, she would be about 43 years old.

It's mentioned in the book that since there were no other obvious suspects, the police focused all their energy on proving Jeff's guilt. They never made an effort to look into the possibility that someone else was the killer. They constantly bothered Jeff at work with questions, which eventually dried up his appliance business and he was forced to find work as a plumber. On top of that, the police followed his every move year and year. Any female that Jeff had even the slightest conversation with was contacted by police and told to stay away from him because he killed his wife.

I assume the relationship between Jeff and Jamie had to have been somewhat decent before the murders. After all, Jamie eventually followed Jeff from Wisconsin to Alma, Colorado. Jeff responds that his brother was blinded by his own unrequited love for Bobbie. He said, "She was a very lovable gal. He had a crush on her but I was the one who married her. I love my brother dearly, but he's messed up my life real bad."

Only after several years of constant accusations by Jamie did Jeff finally suggest that maybe his little brother's possible role in the killings deserves more attention than it received.

Glad you're enjoying the book, dynoguy. :)

I've never, ever been able to even imagine Jeff Oberholtzer taking a swing at anyone, let alone his own wife.

Any female that Jeff had even the slightest conversation with was contacted by police and told to stay away from him because he killed his wife.

Only after several years of constant accusations by Jamie did Jeff finally suggest that maybe his little brother's possible role in the killings deserves more attention than it received.
:mad: This really infuriates me. They didn't have evidence to pin the crime on him!


Wow, Jamie possible being the killer is a chilling theory. But if he attacked Bobbie (with the intent to sexually assault her, perhaps in a rage that she didn't return his feelings and resisted his advances) , I wonder why he would have gone after Annette Schnee? But I can see it being plausible that he could have deliberately been loitering around where Bobbie was drinking, knowing she would get in the car with him.

bump

Oh, exactly 3 years later, cool.


It seems like there's been a lot of serial killers from the Pacific Northwest area of the U.S. (Washington, Oregon, etc.). Have any of them (other than Charles Sinclair) been thought to have been linked to the murders of the couple Jay Cook and Tanya Van Cuylenborg?

I think about the George Owens case a lot.

Also, 'Luxci'.

There are others.

After all these years, the Michael Rosenblum and Freedom boat (the one with Russell, Dozier and Kristin Tomlin) and Dottie Caylor ones stick out in my mind. I have even written a book based on the Rosenblum case. Now if I could just get around to editing it ....

As detective Larry Crompton has said...'he is still out there and I will never be able to get it out of my mind until there is closure'.

There isn't a single case that comes close to this one and if you know the case you are nodding in agreement right now.

I'm an in-house investigator for a large multinational company. Although I've never done any kind of police/criminal investigations, I am a licensed PI on the side and like to think I approach cases from the correct angles. The original night stalker has kept me awake a lot of nights. It's an absolute black hole and an investigators white whale. Although he may not have killed as many people as Gary Leon Ridgeway, add his rapes and murders we do know about with all the ones we don't know about and he may be the most prolific rapist/murderer the USA has ever had

I concur that EAR or Original Night Stalker has been on my mind too. Whomever killed Dexter Stefonek. Whomever killed Jay and Tanya. What happened to Nyleen Kay Marshall? Those are but a few that stand out, but EAR, Original Night Stalker is tops.

Gordon Page, Jr.

My heart just breaks for his poor father. Here he thought he was doing the right thing for his son, and then he ends up losing him with no answers. I know his dad would do anything to get that decision back. He is riddled with guilt and it isn't his fault.

This was hard enough to watch the first time, but now that I have a son of my own I can't even imagine the hell that poor family went through.

And don't even get me started on the other missing kids... :(

Cases that I still wonder about from time to time:

Eric Tamiyasu
Mary Morris Murders
Tara Breckenridge
Jean Moore
Angela Hammond


While I doubt that we will ever know what happened to Jean Moore or Angela Hammond, I do think the other three cases could be solved.

I think about a lot of UM cases off and on at different times. But there are a select few that really gnaw at me.

The orange sock murders - this one was discussed at length in this thread back when it first started. The thing that bothers me most about this case is the huge amount of time detectives wasted looking into Jeff at the beginning.

Angela Hammond - This case displays the epitome of "stranger danger" because it was so random and unexpected in that it was a case of someone truly just being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Michaela Garecht - She was my age and I saw this segment during it's original airing. I was staying at my Grandma's house the night this one aired and we watched it together. I had nightmares about that composite drawing for years. I grew up near the area where both Johnny Gosch and Eugene Martin went missing, so most kidnapping cases didn't bother me so much, but Michaela really haunted me.

Dan Casolaro - I don't often believe the family members who think their loved ones didn't commit suicide, but this one struck me as suspicious for multiple reasons. First, his brother is a physician who laid out a very fact based case for it not being a suicide. Second, Dan's profession put him in a dangerous place as we was investigating people who may have wanted to silence him.

Tim Molnar - Why was he in Wisconsin and how did he die. There is literally no evidence that gives any indication about anything on this one.

The girl who saw all the faces at night before she slept. That scared the heck out of me and I still think of it before I sleep. It keeps me up some nights.

So many....George Owens, the older man who went missing! When the actor portraying him stated, "I can't find my wife...," still makes me sad!

So many....George Owens, the older man who went missing! When the actor portraying him stated, "I can't find my wife...," still makes me sad!

Welcome back! :wave:

I totally agree! Such a heartbreaking case! I felt bad for the lady at the store too who tried to help him. You could tell she felt bad for not doing more. I just figured George was disoriented and drove into the woods and probably died of exposure but does anyone lend any credence to the theory there was foul play. I think they mentioned a witness saying she saw a truck following George's car into the woods and his seat being in the wrong position for George having driven it?

Chaim Weiss

Amy Lynn Bradley

The Wackers

The I-70 Killer. Another case along with the Original Night Stalker and whoever killed the Dardeen Family. Id do nearly anything to get my hands the police files for those 3 cases. Ive spend a lot of sleepless nights thinking about each of those cases.

This list [B]will[B] increase as I get further into the amazon UM streaming lol lol

1. Boys on the tracks - now and always. That sequence freaks me out.
2. Kurt Sova
3. Tommy Burkett
4. 2 girls who went missing - the trailer may have been burned. The parents of the girl who's house they were at were killed

4. 2 girls who went missing - the trailer may have been burned. The parents of the girl who's house they were at were killed

Ashley Freeman and Lauria Bible. Danny and Kathy Freeman were the murdered parents.

Forgot to mention the case trying to find the heirs of Katherine Bennett. I never get the UM Wikia . " A distant relative came forward". How do we know this? Never saw an update on UM about it. No sources cited.

Also there was one with a woman who had a dog that could predict her epilepsy.

Thanks!!

The cases that normally stick with me are when people just disappear. That always seems scarier then a death to me. There are some deaths (examples - Tommy Burkett, boys on the tracks, and Kurt Sova) that are so odd that intellectually I just can't let them go....I just wanna know what happened!

Someone once had a thread about what question you would ask if you could have the answer to any of the Unsolved Mysteries we have seen.

Angela Hammond was popular.

As my mother gets older, I often wonder about Rogest Cain. That one has really bugged me in the last few years... he looked like such a nice man. Same with Annie Hearin.

Thanks!!

The cases that normally stick with me are when people just disappear. That always seems scarier then a death to me. There are some deaths (examples - Tommy Burkett, boys on the tracks, and Kurt Sova) that are so odd that intellectually I just can't let them go....I just wanna know what happened!

Well, the Boys on the Tracks (Don Henry and Kevin Ives) were definitely murdered or left to die on the tracks. If you've ever seen The Clinton Chronicles (about all of Bill and Hillary's misdeeds from the time he became Governor of Arkansas in 1982? up until his presidential inauguration in 1993), it alleges that Clinton and many others were all "in" on the MENA drug-trade operation and that the person that was chosen to be Ives and Henry's defense attorney in their case (Dan Harmon) was actually one of at least three men at the scene the night Henry and Ives ended up being tied to the tracks. Harmon was one of many associates of the Clintons that was also in on the MENA operation (along with the guy that first started the drug drops, Barry Seal).

One can argue that the allegations are false, but the documentary makes several convincing arguments with facts in tow about all of the corruption that went on under the Clintons' "watch", including the events that led to Henry and Ives' deaths.

As my mother gets older, I often wonder about Rogest Cain. That one has really bugged me in the last few years... he looked like such a nice man. Same with Annie Hearin.

I hate that they never discovered what happened to Annie even though they convicted the guy who did it. :(

I hate that they never discovered what happened to Annie even though they convicted the guy who did it. :(

He was convicted of kidnapping. He'll never divulge where her body is because it'd open him up to a homicide charge... Infuriating.

He was convicted of kidnapping. He'll never divulge where her body is because it'd open him up to a homicide charge... Infuriating.

Ah, that makes sense. I hadn't thought of that.

The murder of Gus Hoffman. His murderers went to prison, but his body was never found. I feel awful for his parents.

The murder of Gus Hoffman. His murderers went to prison, but his body was never found. I feel awful for his parents.

Ugh. His mom. SO awful.

The murder of Gus Hoffman. His murderers went to prison, but his body was never found. I feel awful for his parents.

The men who killed Gus were on a whole different level of evil. They wanted to steal his bike. O.K. It wasn't enough to kill him over it, they had to slowly torture him for 4 days and put him through complete hell first BEFORE finally killing him.

People who take that much delight in torturing and killing someone has killed before. I'd be shocked if Gus was the only time they did that.

Well, the Boys on the Tracks (Don Henry and Kevin Ives) were definitely murdered or left to die on the tracks. If you've ever seen The Clinton Chronicles (about all of Bill and Hillary's misdeeds from the time he became Governor of Arkansas in 1982? up until his presidential inauguration in 1993), it alleges that Clinton and many others were all "in" on the MENA drug-trade operation and that the person that was chosen to be Ives and Henry's defense attorney in their case (Dan Harmon) was actually one of at least three men at the scene the night Henry and Ives ended up being tied to the tracks. Harmon was one of many associates of the Clintons that was also in on the MENA operation (along with the guy that first started the drug drops, Barry Seal).

One can argue that the allegations are false, but the documentary makes several convincing arguments with facts in tow about all of the corruption that went on under the Clintons' "watch", including the events that led to Henry and Ives' deaths.

I've read some about that in researching the boys on the tracks on and off over the years.

There is a book on amazon which I have not read:
The Boys on the Tracks Perfect Paperback – December 10, 2007
by Mara Leveritt (Author)

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0979189608/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_112?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A1932CMUQ0KOGA

I find the orange sock murders completely scary!!! That one has stuck with me too.


I think about a lot of UM cases off and on at different times. But there are a select few that really gnaw at me.

The orange sock murders - this one was discussed at length in this thread back when it first started. The thing that bothers me most about this case is the huge amount of time detectives wasted looking into Jeff at the beginning.

Angela Hammond - This case displays the epitome of "stranger danger" because it was so random and unexpected in that it was a case of someone truly just being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Michaela Garecht - She was my age and I saw this segment during it's original airing. I was staying at my Grandma's house the night this one aired and we watched it together. I had nightmares about that composite drawing for years. I grew up near the area where both Johnny Gosch and Eugene Martin went missing, so most kidnapping cases didn't bother me so much, but Michaela really haunted me.

Dan Casolaro - I don't often believe the family members who think their loved ones didn't commit suicide, but this one struck me as suspicious for multiple reasons. First, his brother is a physician who laid out a very fact based case for it not being a suicide. Second, Dan's profession put him in a dangerous place as we was investigating people who may have wanted to silence him.

Tim Molnar - Why was he in Wisconsin and how did he die. There is literally no evidence that gives any indication about anything on this one.

"Ummmmmm.....O.K. I don't think there's an emoticon that can accurately describe my response to that other than "

LOL LOL LOL LOL

Thanks for the Great info btw!!! There's lots there I had not heard before.

Read more: Cases after all these years they still keep you up thinking all night? - Page 4 - Sitcoms Online Message Boards - Forums http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?t=320684&page=4#ixzz4Y9OsBaye

A big thanks to MegTheEgg86 for mentioning the book 'Murderers Among Us.' I bought the book off of Amazon and I read the entry for Bobbie Oberholtzer and Annette Schnee.

The entry is only about 15 pages long, too short to give a case as serious as this the kind of detail it deserves. From an investigation point of view, it doesn't add anything that we didn't already know. But it's got minor details from Jeff and Bobbie's personal life that are kind of interesting, even though they don't really have anything to do with the murders. For instance, it mentions that Bobbie got pregnant when she was a senior in high school and she missed her graduation because she was away giving birth. She married the baby's father but given how young the couple was, the marriage didn't last long and they divorced at age 22. Not long after, Bobbie started dating Jeff and four years later, they were married. Bobbie's ex got full custody of their baby. Again, nothing relevant to the case but it's an interesting back story I never knew.

Now on to the disturbing facts brought up in the book.

1. The police response to Bobbie's disappearance was bad on epic proportions. Jeff first reported Bobbie missing at 3:30 a.m. It was too early to file a report. I don't fault them here because back in those days, a person had to be missing for multiple days before police would even think of getting involved. But several hours later, Jeff and his friends returned to the police to report Bobbie missing again, this time with some of her belongings they had found that had been strewn across the highway including her backpack and mitten that was covered with blood. Even with this evidence, the police did nothing. The sheriff made no attempt to join in the search for Bobbie. Even more infuriating, the deputy that Jeff had spoken to told him to go home because Bobbie had most likely decided to split. This is why Jeff and his friends had to do all the work on their own; the questioning, the investigating, the search party. The police didn't do a thing until after Bobbie's body was found which ended up being just a few hours later.

2. In the UM segment, Jeff briefly mentions that his wife wouldn't have gotten into a vehicle with just anyone while out hitchhiking. In this book, he is adamant repeatedly that Bobbie would never get a ride from a complete stranger. Everyone in town knew each other and the people you weren't exactly close friends with, you still knew as locals and people you could trust with a ride. (This was small town in the early 80's. A different time.) A bartender at the pub Bobbie was having drinks at before she left to hitch home told police that Bobbie was annoyed that her two friends weren't making any effort to leave. They were the ones who were originally going to drive her home and when it looked as though they wanted to make a night out of it, she told the bartender that she was leaving and don't even bother telling her friends that she had left. Jeff discounted the bartender's story because it made no sense to him. In his own words...

"She knew I was at home. The thing that sticks in my craw is that no locals hitchhiked over to Alma at that time of night, especially in such horrible weather conditions. I believe she walked out in the hall to the payphones and saw someone she knew and they left together. That's why she didn't go back in the bar. It was 30 below that night and the wind was blowing hard. There was absolutely no way she was going to go outside hitchhiking home when she could have made a call to me to come and get her."

3. There was hardly any mention of the orange socks at both crimes scenes. That was always one of the most fascinating things about these crimes and UM fans always refer to this case as 'The Orange Sock Murders,' but the book didn't seem interested in that factoid.

4. Lastly, the most surprising and depressing accusations from Jeff's brother Jamie and his wife Cindy. They apparently believe that Jeff is the killer of the women. A direct quote from Jamie....

"I can't prove it. All the evidence is what you would call circumstantial. But I believe he killed her."

Jamie and Cindy claim that Jeff was a womanizer. They claim that the marriage was always a nightmare. They said that 4 days before the murder, Jeff had asked Bobbie to bring home a pizza for dinner. She ended up being an hour late, the pizza was cold, so he got angry, took a swing at her, missed and punched a hole in the wall. Jeff claims they argued over the dinner but it was nothing more than that and Jamie doesn't have a leg to stand on with that accusation saying, "We bickered over cold pizza so I decided to murder her? Does that make sense?"

Jamie and Cindy also claim that they found a note in the Oberholtzer home that was written by Bobbie paraphrasing: "Jeff, if you kill me today, how can I have your baby tomorrow?" They said they gave the note to the police but the police and investigators claim they never received any such note. And given how they spent 7 years doing everything in their power to bust Jeff for the murders, I highly doubt they would have intentionally lost such a damning piece of evidence. All reports from Jeff and Bobbie's friends say they had no idea what Jamie and Cindy were talking about and that they never saw any evidence that the marriage was the nightmare described.

I have to say, I can see why 'Unsolved Mysteries', 'Sensing Murder' and the book 'Monster,' decided to pay no attention to Jamie and Cindy Oberholtzer. To put it gently, they sound like a couple of nuts. Cindy in particular doesn't sound like a person who is all...there. Case in point: She says shortly after the murders, she was woken up in the middle of the night by an evil spirit she named, Mr. Death. She says it's not the occult. She just so happens to always see spirits because they enjoy saying hello to her. She says Mr. Death was dark, 7 feet tall, stood at the foot of her bed that night and they made eye contact with each other for seven straight hours. In her mind, the spirit wanted vengeance against Jeff for killing Bobbie. Ummmmmm.....O.K. I don't think there's an emoticon that can accurately describe my response to that other than :rolleyes:

Welcome back! :wave:

I totally agree! Such a heartbreaking case! I felt bad for the lady at the store too who tried to help him. You could tell she felt bad for not doing more. I just figured George was disoriented and drove into the woods and probably died of exposure but does anyone lend any credence to the theory there was foul play. I think they mentioned a witness saying she saw a truck following George's car into the woods and his seat being in the wrong position for George having driven it?
Thank you for the welcome back!

Mr. Owens wife died not knowing his whereabouts. She surely grieved herself to death....

I still wonder why the Matthew Chase case hasn't been solved. They caught Gretchen Burford's killer due to DNA in the baseball cap he left in her car; haven't they tried testing the bandana found in Matt's car?

They said that Matt's car was clean of all fingerprints, but I still don't think they've tried everything to solve his case. Nobody is THAT perfect.

especially with the added side picture.

I'm really surprised the cases that have been solved and the cases that haven't been solved.


I still wonder why the Matthew Chase case hasn't been solved. They caught Gretchen Burford's killer due to DNA in the baseball cap he left in her car; haven't they tried testing the bandana found in Matt's car?

They said that Matt's car was clean of all fingerprints, but I still don't think they've tried everything to solve his case. Nobody is THAT perfect.

Elizabeth Campbell; she could have been kidnapped from the vicinity of the 7-Eleven, but it sounds like the acquaintance who drove her there wasn't really checked out by police. The purse being discovered 180 miles away was a creepy footnote to the segment.

Judy Smith; imo she was killed by someone she randomly came across in the area, but not all of the pieces fit and there are several unanswered questions, such as how she arrived in Asheville.

The same with Su Ya Kim - I think that this was a thrill kill, possibly perpetrated by someone who attacked women before and since, but where she encountered him is mystery.

Seriously. What was UP with Judy Smith?

Robin did a great job on her podcast, too, but I'm still baffled. How the heck did she end up where she was? DID she leave her husband and he just not know it? So crazy.

Seriously. What was UP with Judy Smith?

Robin did a great job on her podcast, too, but I'm still baffled. How the heck did she end up where she was? DID she leave her husband and he just not know it? So crazy.

It doesn't sound like Judy was always straightforward about her feelings or plans. I know more people subscribe to the theory that she had a rendezvous with someone in Asheville, but it's possible that she was a victim of circumstance.

Elizabeth Campbell; she could have been kidnapped from the vicinity of the 7-Eleven, but it sounds like the acquaintance who drove her there wasn't really checked out by police. The purse being discovered 180 miles away was a creepy footnote to the segment.

Yeah, the update on this case gave me more sleepless nights than maybe any other UM moment with the possible exception of Michaela Garecht's kidnapping.

I know when Jaycee Dugard was found,coney suspected the guy that had Jaycee was also involved in Michaela Garecht's kidnapping. Did this,just fizzle out,or was there some traction behind that?