Norman Lear wanted Mike to be the good guy but sometimes he was just plain annoying and wrong. He talked about civil rights probably to make him feel better but he talked down to people. He treated Gloria like a slave which exposed him as a fake. Mike wanted to looked at as hero the reality was he sometimes did not practiced what he preached. I am not saying that Mike was all wrong but he really did treat the Bunkers including his wife as he was above it all.

Absolutely. Like when he gets bent out of shape when Gloria makes the first move or when he freaks out in ep #69 "The Games Bunkers Play"

I couldn't agree more! I detested the character of Mike throughout the entire series. To me he was also very lazy. I have never understood why he was unable to work while going to school. Archie was a very hard worker and earned every thing he aquired, unlike Mike, who was a nasty looking, criticizing disrespecting mooch! That was Archie's home and yet so many times he told him what he should and shouldn't do. Case in point, when he and the rest went against Archie buying a gun for the house. That SOB drove me up the wall with his BS rantings. I could go on and on about this jackass, but I won't. He was just an ignorant hippy.

I couldn't agree more! I detested the character of Mike throughout the entire series. To me he was also very lazy. I have never understood why he was unable to work while going to school. Archie was a very hard worker and earned every thing he aquired, unlike Mike, who was a nasty looking, criticizing disrespecting mooch! That was Archie's home and yet so many times he told him what he should and shouldn't do. Case in point, when he and the rest went against Archie buying a gun for the house. That SOB drove me up the wall with his BS rantings. I could go on and on about this jackass, but I won't. He was just an ignorant hippy.

I'm no great fan of Mike but I don't see him quite as harshly as you do. True, some industrious people do manage to go to school and work, but IT'S VERY HARD to do. As long as someone either works hard or gets good grades while going to school, I don't see them as lazy. And Mike did apply himself to school, so I have to give him credit there. But he is annoyingly smug, hypocritical and can dish it out but can't take it. Seeing his response to criticism in the ep I mentioned above is priceless. And yes, he should have been more diplomatic/respectful of Archie. The bottom line: he was LIVING in Archie's house and could have been a lot more tactful.

I think in making Mike (and Archie) the way he was was part of the genius of Norman Lear. It just goes to show that no matter what religion, race, etc. that you are, there is good AND bad in everyone. It's what you choose to do with the good AND bad that make you a caring person.

Archie and Mike were both created as complex, imperfect human beings, as they should have been. Archie was pigheaded, racist,hot tempered and rude. He was also loyal, a loving husband and father, hard working, sentimental and usually stuck to his moral guns.

Mike was arrogant, hypocritical, stubborn and naive. He was also a compassionate and caring human being, who did love his wife, Edith and even Archie, let's be honest.

Lear did NOT intend Mike to be the "hero" anymore than he intended Archie to be. He wanted to create a realistic portrayal of a complex family in the 70's and he succeeded, in droves.

As for the Mike haters, what kind of a show would it have been had Mike meekly nodded and grumbled off camera when Archie went on a rant? A pretty boring and unsuccessful one, I'd say. It's a mistake to blithely gloss over all of Archie's faults and demonize Mike for his. They were HUMAN BEINGS who made mistakes and had triumphs, just like you and me. That was Lear's genius.

I think Mike's finest moments came when he tried to help Edith deal with the murder of Beverly La Salle and trying to make Edith understand while Archie forged her name to get a loan to buy the bar.

Where he angered me is how he treated Gloria in respect to their relationship including blaming her for getting pregnant. He came around to Gloria having a baby but he started off like a self centered jerk. There was an episode that he had a friend to dinner but wanted her to stay out of their chess game or have any part of the discussion.

Then When they moved to California basically ignored her making her feel less then a person. I do not blame her for becoming friends with Bud Kriger which caused them to break up in Christmas 1978.

In end I am not surprised they divorced because Mike and Gloria were just to different. Mike really did not include his wife in his life

That's what made Mike likeable, IMO. Without the hypocrisy, he would have came off as an arrogant know-it-all. Being a hypocrite made him human.

http://i.imgur.com/2HAbeGz.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/2HAbeGz.jpg:lol: You have a good point! I know I'd go bananas.

Gloria put him in his place every now and then.

Mike's character was completely exposed in two episodes:

"The Games Bunkers Play" (Season 4) - Came off as being intolerant of other's opinions

"New Year's Wedding" (Season 6) - How domineering he was as a husband

The funny thing is that Mike's character actually left Gloria and their son (that was explained by the show, but never shown) to go live in a commune. Mike always was critical of Archie, but at least Archie was man enough to take care and provide for his wife and daughter, not to mention Steffie when she came to live in the house.

I'm assuming the producers wanted Mike to be loved and Archie hated by the viewers, but in reality Mike was more hated than Archie. The producers of this show probably didn't understand the audience that was watching the show. In their liberal minds they probably assumed everyone that was watching believed in Mike's garbage.

I'm assuming the producers wanted Mike to be loved and Archie hated by the viewers, but in reality Mike was more hated than Archie.


I think you would be incorrect in that assumption, and interviews with Lear give weight to my feeling. He loved Archie, really, and based him on guys he knew when he was young. The fact that he made Archie imperfect, as he did Mike, was testament to his creative genius.

It always cracks me up when I read that people think one of them was RIGHT or WRONG all the time. That's not what the show was trying to say. It was a portrait of a complex 1970's American family, not a showcase for liberal beliefs or strident preaching. If Lear had truly tried to glorify Mike, he would have never put him in the position of being a hypocrite, and he did that on MANY occasions.

I think you would be incorrect in that assumption, and interviews with Lear give weight to my feeling. He loved Archie, really, and based him on guys he knew when he was young. The fact that he made Archie imperfect, as he did Mike, was testament to his creative genius.

It always cracks me up when I read that people think one of them was RIGHT or WRONG all the time. That's not what the show was trying to say. It was a portrait of a complex 1970's American family, not a showcase for liberal beliefs or strident preaching. If Lear had truly tried to glorify Mike, he would have never put him in the position of being a hypocrite, and he did that on MANY occasions.
I totally agree. The reason the show was a huge success with the American audience was that it showed faults in both sides. Today's producers could learn some things from Norman Lear.

Exactly. It was the clever exposure of each man's faults and virtues that made them more human, and embraceable. Archie's mellowing and Michael's closed -mindedness helped balance their respective reactionary and liberal leanings, resp. Lear was a genius.

It always cracks me up when I read that people think one of them was RIGHT or WRONG all the time. That's not what the show was trying to say. It was a portrait of a complex 1970's American family, not a showcase for liberal beliefs or strident preaching. If Lear had truly tried to glorify Mike, he would have never put him in the position of being a hypocrite, and he did that on MANY occasions.

My only problem is that while there were cases in which characters put Mike in his place (Lionel, Gloria, Edith), they never had a moment where Archie exposed Mike's hypocrisy.

For instance the episode in which Mike didn't want Archie to take care of Joey if something happened to him and Gloria. That would have been a perfect time for Archie to set Mike straight: he could have said, "I took care of you all these years and here you are telling me I'm not fit to take care of my grandson?"

Mike was annoying too sometimes. Off the top of my head, rememeber the one where Mike got extra money and he sent it to a presidential campaign instead of sending it to Archie. I could see Archie's point there. I understand Mike wanted to see the good in people etc. but sometimes thats not the case.

Mike was annoying too sometimes. Off the top of my head, rememeber the one where Mike got extra money and he sent it to a presidential campaign instead of sending it to Archie. I could see Archie's point there. I understand Mike wanted to see the good in people etc. but sometimes thats not the case.

Exactly. That was a clear sign of Mike's immaturity. He gave the money to the other campaign just to piss Archie off. Just like when Archie was feeling down about turning 50 -- Mike quickly said, "Happy 50th Birthday To You" when everyone was singing HP to Archie.

I couldn't agree more! I detested the character of Mike throughout the entire series. To me he was also very lazy. I have never understood why he was unable to work while going to school. Archie was a very hard worker and earned every thing he aquired, unlike Mike, who was a nasty looking, criticizing disrespecting mooch! That was Archie's home and yet so many times he told him what he should and shouldn't do. Case in point, when he and the rest went against Archie buying a gun for the house. That SOB drove me up the wall with his BS rantings. I could go on and on about this jackass, but I won't. He was just an ignorant hippy.

I couldn't agree with you more! Mike Stivic would have fit right in with today's Obama entitlement culture. I use to watch AITF with my Grandparents as a child. My parents would go out on a "date night" every now and then and leave my sister and I with my Grandparents for the evening. My Grandad was the polar opposite of everything that Mike stood for, and he HATED Mike Stivic. In fact, my Grandad reminded me a lot of Archie Bunker. My Grandad would rant and rave about how he would like to whip Mike Stivics a$$ and then cut off all that "damn long hair". My Grandmother and I would sit there and laugh at my Grandad for getting so wound up and upset. One of my favorite childhood memories, lol.

can u just see archie bunker meeting mike again after he ran out on mike and Gloria n baby joey after he promised him he stay there take care of his family in California

My only problem is that while there were cases in which characters put Mike in his place (Lionel, Gloria, Edith), they never had a moment where Archie exposed Mike's hypocrisy.

For instance the episode in which Mike didn't want Archie to take care of Joey if something happened to him and Gloria. That would have been a perfect time for Archie to set Mike straight: he could have said, "I took care of you all these years and here you are telling me I'm not fit to take care of my grandson?"

An excellent idea and an excellent point. I would have loved to see Archie expose some of Michael's hypocrisy.

About a year ago, I wrote the following about Mike and Archie:

I realize that Mike was supposed to offer the other side of Archie's opinons. However, over the years Mike proved himself to be quite the hypocrite. He took part in peace marches and was quick to violently defend Gloria on the subway. He was always quick to use his education to put Archie down; a very disrespectful act. He shouted his views while being critical of Archie for having opposing views. I think the best episode that brought his shortcomings to light was the episode where he, Gloria, Edith, Lionel, Irene and Frank were playing a board game, and he couldn't handle the fact that others didn't see him as the perfect person he thought he was. It took Edith to show him how things really were.

Mike would've been better off had he given Archie the same consideration and understanding he seem to demand that Archie should give others. Archie was who he was; a product of his environment, era and upbringing, and when the world began to change, he found it difficult to change with it. As the years went on, Archie's character did actually grow from time to time. Mike on the other hand seem to become what he used to enjoy mocking. He became a head of a household with all its responsibilties and as it turned out, couldn't handle it as well as Archie did.

Read more: http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?p=4781631#post4781631#ixzz2vVXfhglk

This just goes to show how awesome an actor Rob Reiner was in the role of Michael "Mike" "Meathead" Stivic. There are aspects about all 4 characters that I love, some that I like, and some that I can't stand. But isn't that true in real life too? There are not a whole lot of people I'm around in my circle of life, but without exception, there are things about them I love, things about them I like, and things about them that drive me crazy. And I know they all feel pretty much the same about me.

I admired Mike's passion about things. He was hypocritical at times, but so too was Archie. We learn more and more about Archie, why he acted as he did toward Mike, why he had such a closed mindset about the world at large too.

I can see where many would passionately disdain Mike Stivic, but that's what I want from a TV character. It's great when a character like Mike, or an entertainer like Howard Stern for example, can be so polarizing.

One thing that I found hypocritical was Mike complaining about cousin Oscar freeloading. Oscar it seemed was a drifter, not wanted by anybody. The usually liberal Mike even seemed to have his fill w/Oscar's selfishness, even to the point where Mike suggested to Archie to have Oscar's remains buried in Potter's field. That was a bit of a surprise to me that Meathead would side with Archie on something like that.

Archie and Mike were both created as complex, imperfect human beings, as they should have been. Archie was pigheaded, racist,hot tempered and rude. He was also loyal, a loving husband and father, hard working, sentimental and usually stuck to his moral guns.

Mike was arrogant, hypocritical, stubborn and naive. He was also a compassionate and caring human being, who did love his wife, Edith and even Archie, let's be honest.

Lear did NOT intend Mike to be the "hero" anymore than he intended Archie to be. He wanted to create a realistic portrayal of a complex family in the 70's and he succeeded, in droves.

As for the Mike haters, what kind of a show would it have been had Mike meekly nodded and grumbled off camera when Archie went on a rant? A pretty boring and unsuccessful one, I'd say. It's a mistake to blithely gloss over all of Archie's faults and demonize Mike for his. They were HUMAN BEINGS who made mistakes and had triumphs, just like you and me. That was Lear's genius.

Exactly...there were some times when Lear, I think on purpose, let Archie get the better of the argument. Both men had their own blind spots.