Hi,

I can not remember for certain, but I remember about 5 big UM segments that dealt with a case where the police are 100% certain the boy's death was suicide, yet the parents are sure that it was murder because blood spots were on different parts of the wall outside his bedroom or it was impossible for the man to shoot himself at the angle where the gun was left afterwards.

I actually believe a few cases were suicide and the parents are in denial. There are probably a few other cases where it was not suicide and planted/set up to look that way by the real killer. Because this has happened a lot too as I have seen this in Forensic files.

Do you agree with me that some cases are not murder cases or unsolved - and are simply suicides.

In one case there was a young man who lost his drivers license for a year. His parents said he did not kill himself. Yet, he had 3 girlfriends? That is not good and can lead to trouble and fights or accidental death. He was afraid of one of his girlfriends boyfriend. He also had road rage with another young man and pissed off that guy. Thus, maybe one of those guys killed him out of anger or rage? But, I tend to agree with the police when they said the suicide victim was stressed out after losing his license - hey at any age when u lose a license for 12 months it sucks big time and you lose your independence. Yet, when you are very young it seems to suck even more. And the policeman said he was also depressed about all the threats from the other guys. I think he killed himself.

I will be interested to see everyone's thoughts on this. From what I can gather, reading through the threads, most people here seem to think that many of those cases are actually suicides that that relatives are having a hard time accepting.

I was absolutely sure that Jeffrey Digman's death was a murder set up by his roomie. http://unsolvedmysteries.wikia.com/wiki/Jeffrey_Digman

He was supposed to be on a flight out of town, he had just bought a house with a roommate (which the roommate would likely inherit upon his death - motive), when the roomie got home that evening, he was suspicious of Digman's car still being there instead of at the airport, so instead of checking his own house, had a neighbor search and find the body. (A tactic sometimes used by murderers to make sure the body is discovered but they aren't the one to find it.)

Then, more info came out than was in the UM segment. He was drunk at the time of his death, which would be odd if he really intended to drive to the airport and take the flight, etc. So that got me wondering if I was wrong and this really was a suicide.

A few other cases... are they suicide or murder?

Danny Williams - http://unsolvedmysteries.wikia.com/wiki/Danny_Williams

Tommy Burkett - http://unsolvedmysteries.wikia.com/wiki/Thomas_Burkett

Danny Casolaro - http://unsolvedmysteries.wikia.com/wiki/Danny_Casolaro

Rae Ann Mossor - http://unsolvedmysteries.wikia.com/wiki/Rae_Ann_Mossor

Cindy James - http://unsolvedmysteries.wikia.com/wiki/Cindy_James

Mike O'Mara - http://unsolvedmysteries.wikia.com/wiki/Mike_O%27Mara

Tony Lombardi - http://unsolvedmysteries.wikia.com/wiki/Tony_Lombardi

Michael Carmichael & Billy Ray Hargrove - http://unsolvedmysteries.wikia.com/wiki/Michael_Carmichael_and_Billy_Ray_Hargrove

Thanks for posting all those cases, Tracy--good memory jog.

Jeffrey Digman--I'm with you on how I initially felt about it, too. But there's a lot to indicate a suicide. I'm not willing to go all in yet, but I suppose that's the way I lean now, too.

lettucesolve, you brought up Tony Lombardi. I believe that one to be a suicide as well.

For the others:

Danny Williams - not sure, lean toward murder, after originally thinking it WAS a suicide.

Tommy Burkett - suicide.

Danny Casolaro - suicide.

Rae Ann Mossor - accident.

Cindy James - I think this is probably the biggest toss-up of them all. No clue.

Mike O'Mara - murder.

Mike Carmichael and Billy Ray Hargrove - suicides.

I will need to review these, later. But one I can state, without reservation, that I absolutely believe was murder was the case of Cindy James. I have not been given enough evidence that it was all in her head. The snarky reporter really turned me off to this with his "a knot expert tied the knots in" whatever short time he said. "A knot expert." Was Cindy a knot expert? If she was not, I'd like to see the same knot tied, in the same fashion, by someone who is not. Another thing that leads me to my decision is that no needles, nor other way to ingest the morphine (was it morphine? I can't remember) were found anywhere near her, and in fact, were never located, if I remember correctly.

It was said that the calls/visits stopped when she was under surveillance. My question is was this surveillance done with her knowledge? If it's suspected that someone is doing this to themselves, why not do surveillance without the person's knowledge, and see what happens, then?

I just don't believe it was a suicide, at this time, and I never have. Could I be moved from this position? Sure. But so far, I've not seen enough evidence to show that to me.

I will need to review these, later. But one I can state, without reservation, that I absolutely believe was murder was the case of Cindy James. I have not been given enough evidence that it was all in her head. The snarky reporter really turned me off to this with his "a knot expert tied the knots in" whatever short time he said. "A knot expert." Was Cindy a knot expert? If she was not, I'd like to see the same knot tied, in the same fashion, by someone who is not. Another thing that leads me to my decision is that no needles, nor other way to ingest the morphine (was it morphine? I can't remember) were found anywhere near her, and in fact, were never located, if I remember correctly.

It was said that the calls/visits stopped when she was under surveillance. My question is was this surveillance done with her knowledge? If it's suspected that someone is doing this to themselves, why not do surveillance without the person's knowledge, and see what happens, then?

I just don't believe it was a suicide, at this time, and I never have. Could I be moved from this position? Sure. But so far, I've not seen enough evidence to show that to me.

I agree with you. I don't think it was suicide, it was murder, imo. Now, when people talk about the "state" of Cindy's mind....well, I think if someone was harassing me the way she was being harassed, I think it's probably normal to end up having mental health issues. So, while some of her claims may not have been accurate, I'd say it's because she grew to be extremely paranoid. I do think someone was stalking her and I do think she was murdered.

There is another case, too....I think the guy's name was Keith Warren? He was a young guy, apparently hung himself, and the circumstances surrounding it all just do not add up.

There is another case, too....I think the guy's name was Keith Warren? He was a young guy, apparently hung himself, and the circumstances surrounding it all just do not add up.

Here's the link in case you haven't already had the chance to look at this thread. I definitely do not think it was a suicide, but I'm not sure what happened: murder? accidental death covered up to keep cops from investigating criminals?

IMO, there's no way he hung himself. His feet were on the ground with his knees bent, and his arms slightly forward in an unnatural position (which indicated that hanging was not the position in which he died).

The police lied and lied and lied to the family, ignored them, pretended they didn't know Keith's identity when they had that info all along, had Keith's body embalmed without informing the family so any future autopsy would be compromised, said that Keith's clothes were too soiled to be returned to the family due to extensive decomposition of the body, but he was found within hours of death. His body was in good condition and he was still very recognizable. When they finally returned clothes to the family, they weren't Keith's, AND Keith was not wearing his own clothes in crime scene photos.

Much more info in the link below.


http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?t=157104&highlight=keith+warren

Yeah, Keith Warren was an absolute murder and an absolute cover-up. No question on either count.

Keith Warren was definitely a murder, there's no way for that to be a suicide.

Cindy James I do think it was a murder, but I really don't think there's any way to definitively prove it beyond the shadow of a doubt either way.

I lean toward murder on cases like Norman Ladner, Tommy Burkett, Mike O' Mara and Henry/Ives. Most others I think were suicides or accidents or cases like Mike Carmichael where I'm just not sure.

My general view is that the suicides on UM are almost always usually just that.

Suicide is often incredibly difficult for loved ones to accept (its been descibed as "deeper than death", bringing with it not just feelings of grief but also rage, guilt, self-reproach etc.) and they will often grasp at any straw to convince themselves foul play was involved. This just often isn't the case though. Add to that the fact that any allegation of "cover up" of a suicide usually involves a suggestion of some incredibly complex conspiracy involving a cast of dozens from a variety of state agencies, and I'm usually just not convinced.

There are two exceptions though:

1. Cindy James - enough has been written on this infamous case, so there's no need for me to add much. IMO, I'm certain at least some (perhaps most) of the "attacks" on Cindy were staged, but I'm not convinced all of them were. The position she was found in at the time of here death is deeply suspicious, and I'm certain the cops had made their mind up that her death was not murder prior to them commencing any sort of (half- a**ed) investigation.

2. The Intelligence Agent who allegedly electroctuted himself in a hotel room - this is deeply suspicious (such a bizarre way to go) and I can completely see the CIA deciding to sweep the whole matter under the carpet and not wanting to create an international incident.

I think most of the suicide/murder cases are suicide. Although knowing how lazy and incompetent some of the cops are I would not be surprised if some of them are murder and they messed up the investigation.

The most bizarre cases are the ones that I think could go either way. Especially Aileen Conway and Rae Ann Mossor.

If the authorities say they hung themselves in their jail cell, that's an obvious murder cover-up (Andre Jones and Mario Amado)

I think when I was younger I believed that the majority were murders or foul play. Now, I think most of them were suicides that the families could not accept and UM distorted or embellished certain facts while simultaneously downplaying others to make them seem more mysterious than they actually were.

Edited to add: A while ago someone created a list of all the Final Appeals cases and various posters chimed in saying "guilty" or "innocent" and this led to some discussion. It would be interested if such a list existed for the "unexplained deaths."

I'll start with the specials...

Don Kemp - accident
Wanda Jean Mays - accident
Aeileen Conway - accident
Kurt McFall - accident

Season 1

Don Henry and Kevin Ives - murder
Kurt Sova - accident
Clarence and Geneva Roberts - convoluted, but he killed a vagrant in the first fire, then shot his wife and committed suicide in the second fire

Season 2

Kay Hall - murdered by her husband, Bob Hall.
Sonny Liston - accident
Ralph Sigler - don't know, but lean toward suicide
Rae Ann Mossor - suicide
Chuck Morgan - no clue

I'm tired. Anyone else want to continue?

Rae Ann Mossor - suicide

While I have gained a lot of perspective on cases since my younger days, and do readily agree that a lot of the "unexplained deaths" are likely suicides that the family refuses to believe are suicides, there is absolutely no way I can agree with this one being a suicide.

While I have gained a lot of perspective on cases since my younger days, and do readily agree that a lot of the "unexplained deaths" are likely suicides that the family refuses to believe are suicides, there is absolutely no way I can agree with this one being a suicide.

Agreed; there's evidence that Rae Ann was not holding the weapon when it discharged.

Mario Amado's injuries indicate homicide, I'm still uncertain whether Andre Jones was murdered or was a suicide, but the jail was negligent and responsible for his death. Bobby Fuller's death is bizarre, possibly he overdosed or was accidentally killed and there had been plans of burning up the vehicle and the body.

Based on the evidence, I'd say Danny Williams was murdered. As for motive, I would say it was most likely a case of either a random act of violence or more likely a mistaken hit with Danny being the unlucky victim.

I think when I was younger I believed that the majority were murders or foul play. Now, I think most of them were suicides that the families could not accept and UM distorted or embellished certain facts while simultaneously downplaying others to make them seem more mysterious than they actually were.

Edited to add: A while ago someone created a list of all the Final Appeals cases and various posters chimed in saying "guilty" or "innocent" and this led to some discussion. It would be interested if such a list existed for the "unexplained deaths."

I'll start with the specials...

Don Kemp - accident
Wanda Jean Mays - accident
Aeileen Conway - accident
Kurt McFall - accident

Season 1

Don Henry and Kevin Ives - murder
Kurt Sova - accident
Clarence and Geneva Roberts - convoluted, but he killed a vagrant in the first fire, then shot his wife and committed suicide in the second fire

Season 2

Kay Hall - murdered by her husband, Bob Hall.
Sonny Liston - accident
Ralph Sigler - don't know, but lean toward suicide
Rae Ann Mossor - suicide
Chuck Morgan - no clue

I'm tired. Anyone else want to continue?

I'll play.

Don Kemp - accident
Wanda Jean Mays - accident
Aeileen Conway - accident
Kurt McFall - accident

Season 1

Don Henry and Kevin Ives - murder
Kurt Sova - accident
Clarence and Geneva Roberts - same as justin

Season 2

Kay Hall - 95% on her being murdered by Bob Hall
Sonny Liston - 70% on an accident; 30% on murder
Ralph Sigler - murder
Rae Ann Mossor - accident
Chuck Morgan - murder
Tom Young from the Keith Reinhard segment - suicide
Steve Sandlin - murder

Season 3

Rena Paquette - murder
Norman Ladner - murder
Cindy James - 70% on an accident; 30% on suicide

Season 4

Jeffrey Digman - 95% on suicide
Chad Mauer - murder

Season 5

Ed Baker - murder
Chad Langford - murder
Danny Casolaro - suicide
Mario Amado - murder

Season 6

Danny Williams - murder
Ted Loseff - murder
Andre Jones - murder
Carmichael and Hargrove - suicides
Dave Bocks - murder
Tony Lombardi - suicide

Season 7

Tommy Burkett - 60% on suicide, 40% beating that turned fatal
Adam Emery - absolutely did not jump off the bridge
Jack Davis Jr. - accident that was covered up
Mike O'Mara - murder


Someone is welcome to add the remainder if they wish!

I'll play.

Don Kemp - accident
Wanda Jean Mays - accident
Aeileen Conway - accident
Kurt McFall - accident

Season 1

Don Henry and Kevin Ives - murder
Kurt Sova - accident
Clarence and Geneva Roberts - same as justin

Season 2

Kay Hall - 95% on her being murdered by Bob Hall
Sonny Liston - 70% on an accident; 30% on murder
Ralph Sigler - murder
Rae Ann Mossor - accident
Chuck Morgan - murder
Tom Young from the Keith Reinhard segment - suicide
Steve Sandlin - murder

Season 3

Rena Paquette - murder
Norman Ladner - murder
Cindy James - 70% on an accident; 30% on suicide

Season 4

Jeffrey Digman - 95% on suicide
Chad Mauer - murder

Season 5

Ed Baker - murder
Chad Langford - murder
Danny Casolaro - suicide
Mario Amado - murder

Season 6

Danny Williams - murder
Ted Loseff - murder
Andre Jones - murder
Carmichael and Hargrove - suicides
Dave Bocks - murder
Tony Lombardi - suicide

Season 7

Tommy Burkett - 60% on suicide, 40% beating that turned fatal
Adam Emery - absolutely did not jump off the bridge
Jack Davis Jr. - accident that was covered up
Mike O'Mara - murder


Someone is welcome to add the remainder if they wish!

You and I have very similar opinions.

Thanks for chiming in on Adam Emery. I was excoriated in another thread for expressing the same opinion. At the very least, I think the FBI is 100% in the right for continuing to pursue him. He remains on the FBI's Most Wanted Violent Criminals list, and he belongs on that list until there's some evidence he's been fish food all of these years. If that's the case, great, but there is absolutely nothing to corroborate that theory. The discovery of his wife's remains is no evidence at all in that regard.

I'm intrigued to find out more about what you mean about Cindy James's death possibly being an accident? Her hands were tied so I always thought the two possibilities were 1 - murder; or 2- a suicide being staged as a murder (as Neal Hall implied in the segment).

In the Rae Ann Mosser case, I have no idea what happened there. I was a little surprised that the boyfriend seemed to be above suspicion, given that she was in front of his house, and he claimed she threatened suicide. We just don't seem to know much about him. I have no idea if it was murder, suicide, or accident. Not enough information to go on.

Otherwise I agree with your list 100%. Mike O'Mara deserved so much better than the investigation that was conducted! His life ended so brutally and senselessly after a long career of loyalty and dedication to this job and community.

You and I have very similar opinions.

Thanks for chiming in on Adam Emery. I was excoriated in another thread for expressing the same opinion. At the very least, I think the FBI is 100% in the right for continuing to pursue him. He remains on the FBI's Most Wanted Violent Criminals list, and he belongs on that list until there's some evidence he's been fish food all of these years. If that's the case, great, but there is absolutely nothing to corroborate that theory. The discovery of his wife's remains is no evidence at all in that regard.

Agreed totally.

I'm intrigued to find out more about what you mean about Cindy James's death possibly being an accident? Her hands were tied so I always thought the two possibilities were 1 - murder; or 2- a suicide being staged as a murder (as Neal Hall implied in the segment).

What I meant is that I think it's a possibility that Cindy didn't intend to overdose, that it was a staged event that turned into an accidental death. I think she may have planned on being found, much in the same way she was found in a ditch in that earlier incident.

In the Rae Ann Mosser case, I have no idea what happened there. I was a little surprised that the boyfriend seemed to be above suspicion, given that she was in front of his house, and he claimed she threatened suicide. We just don't seem to know much about him. I have no idea if it was murder, suicide, or accident. Not enough information to go on.

Same. This combined with the fact that the shotgun was extraordinarily long, and the difficulty in fathoming how she would've been able to shoot herself in the chest without some significant jerry-rigging accomplished in a matter of seconds is the main reason I just can't go with suicide--even if she was in fact threatening to kill herself. And exactly as you said, we don't know enough about her boyfriend--or even the details of the scene--to determine whether he could've intentionally murdered her.

Otherwise I agree with your list 100%. Mike O'Mara deserved so much better than the investigation that was conducted! His life ended so brutally and senselessly after a long career of loyalty and dedication to this job and community.

There for a while, I wondered if the same issues that reportedly surrounded the Ralph Probst case were at play in O'Mara's several years later--that is, the rumored cozy relationship between organized crime and some elements of the Cook County Sheriff's Department.

Based on the evidence, I'd say Danny Williams was murdered. As for motive, I would say it was most likely a case of either a random act of violence or more likely a mistaken hit with Danny being the unlucky victim.

I definitely think Danny Williams was suicide.

What I meant is that I think it's a possibility that Cindy didn't intend to overdose, that it was a staged event that turned into an accidental death. I think she may have planned on being found, much in the same way she was found in a ditch in that earlier incident.

When she was found in that ditch along the UBC Campus, she was suffering from hypothermia but she didn't have any drugs in her system. Just some cuts, scratches and bruises over her body.

If she did all this and it was her intent to be found, it was so much more extreme in the example leading to her death. During those entire 6 1/2 years, the longest she had ever gone missing was about 5 hours, when she ended up in that ditch with no drugs in her system. With her death, she was now missing for two whole weeks (her picture all over the local news and newspapers) her system with ten times the lethal dose of flurazepam and ten times the lethal dose of morphine.

If she did not intend to overdose but wanted to be found alive with drugs in her system, she went extremely overboard, which would have involved swallowing up to 90 tablets of the morphine. And then do the flurazepam. I don't know how ANYBODY would expect to survive that.

I think I've become way to cynical over the years because I pretty much hold the view that the majority of the murder/suicide segments, aside from the ones that were re-classified (Steve Sandlin, Mario Amado, etc.), are all either accidents or suicides.

I think I've become way to cynical over the years because I pretty much hold the view that the majority of the murder/suicide segments, aside from the ones that were re-classified (Steve Sandlin, Mario Amado, etc.), are all either accidents or suicides.

This is especially true if it's a celeb/historical figure. (Sonny Liston, George Reeves, Kurt Cobain, Rudolf Hess)

When I was an impressionable little kid, I believed that the cases were homicides, because I figured UM wouldn’t let them on if they didn’t have some convincing evidence. Yeah, I too, am wondering if I wasn’t an exceptionally dumb child. :p

Nowadays I believe that most of them were suicides or accidents. It’s a common complaint in law enforcement that many families will insist that their relative was murdered, no matter how much evidence points to a suicide. They will focus on one weird oddity—like, say, the victim was found wearing only one shoe—and ignore much more solid proof like the victim had a documented history of mental illness or substance abuse and had recently lost their job, lost a relative they cared about, or was reeling from a bad breakup.

Though the whole Rudolf Hess segment was a bit of a stretch. I just cannot believe that if he wasn’t the real Rudolf Hess, he would spend that many decades rotting in prison and not say anything. Even if he was a Nazi fanatic, I think the double would have broken down and admitted the truth at some point. I also think that he probably killed himself simply because I can’t really picture a clear motive. The guy was a Nazi, but he had been rotting in that prison for decades without someone taking a shot at him. Also, if it was a homicide, there would be more signs of a struggle; even a toothless old man will put up a fight if someone was trying to kill them.

^ this
I feel really sorry for the parents of these guys. I was looking at a few of the cases in which the parents were insisting that their kids were murdered. Well, of course those parents are now long dead. The pain takes its toll quickly and shortens their lives.

There was even a segment of a bizarre case of an army guy who acted completely insane around his girlfriend and said that he was doing secret missions or something. At some point someone phoned the girlfriend and said, "tell him the mission is off." Sorry, but it seemed hilarious to me because I never believed any of it for a moment, and he seemed to be putting on a show for her many times, probably including making that phone call to her. Anyway, his belongings were found in his car, which was parked near a hotel and he is assumed dead now. He just seemed mentally ill to me from the jump.

People need to admit to themselves when their friends/relatives were just insane.

There was even a segment of a bizarre case of an army guy who acted completely insane around his girlfriend and said that he was doing secret missions or something. At some point someone phoned the girlfriend and said, "tell him the mission is off." Sorry, but it seemed hilarious to me because I never believed any of it for a moment, and he seemed to be putting on a show for her many times, probably including making that phone call to her. Anyway, his belongings were found in his car, which was parked near a hotel and he is assumed dead now. He just seemed mentally ill to me from the jump.


Justin Burgwinkel. I think he killed himself shortly after his disappearance or suffered the consequences of being involved in petty criminal activity, simply because he's never contacted his family or girlfriend with cryptic "I'm still a secret operative" messages. Paul Whipkey, on the other hand, possibly was involved in covert activities (and died from illness or perished at a later date).

Yeah, I believe that pretty much none of these cases were murders. Doug Johnston's death was weird, though, and I'd love to hear a theory of how the gun supposedly ended up that far from the car. (Did UM leave out a gun was actually found near the scene?)

I'm including a flag for this sort of thing in my UM database to be able to crunch the numbers on them.

I think a good chunk, more than half, were likely not what they were officially classified as, but the solve rate is going to be low because authorities never like to admit they were wrong.

Update on the Keith Warren Case:

February 2024 The Medical Examiner in Maryland reversed the cause of death and updated the death certificate to undetermined. The unfortunate part of this is that even with the Office of the Medical Examiner in Maryland reversing the cause of death to undetermined. MCPD , the State Attorney, County Executive and every person part of the judicial system in Montgomery County will not so much as acknowledge my request for a meeting and request for Keith's case to be updated in the county to match the death certificate (undetermined). in February of 2024 I submitted testimony in support of House Bill 969 (Death Reclassification Act). This law which was passed in March went into effect October 1, 2024. In short it states that once the ME reverses a death certificate the said police agency has to investigate the case as a homicide. With Keith's case being reclassified in February his case would have to be grand fathered in. MCPD will not return a call or acknowledge the reversal.

Update on the Keith Warren Case:

February 2024 The Medical Examiner in Maryland reversed the cause of death and updated the death certificate to undetermined. The unfortunate part of this is that even with the Office of the Medical Examiner in Maryland reversing the cause of death to undetermined. MCPD , the State Attorney, County Executive and every person part of the judicial system in Montgomery County will not so much as acknowledge my request for a meeting and request for Keith's case to be updated in the county to match the death certificate (undetermined). in February of 2024 I submitted testimony in support of House Bill 969 (Death Reclassification Act). This law which was passed in March went into effect October 1, 2024. In short it states that once the ME reverses a death certificate the said police agency has to investigate the case as a homicide. With Keith's case being reclassified in February his case would have to be grand fathered in. MCPD will not return a call or acknowledge the reversal.

disgusting, and unforunate. hopefully they look into it

I just reviewed the Andre Jones segment yesterday. That was one of the suicide segments that always seemed kind of off to me. and I don't think that his segment gets a lot of discussion on here.

I just reviewed the Andre Jones segment yesterday. That was one of the suicide segments that always seemed kind of off to me. and I don't think that his segment gets a lot of discussion on here.

That's understandable. Jail cell suicides in Jackson, MS should be met with immediate skepticism based on the dark history of that particular region alone

That's understandable. Jail cell suicides in Jackson, MS should be met with immediate skepticism based on the dark history of that particular region alone

yeah and it is possible that it was a suicide. I could see a young kid being ashamed and overcome with guilt not wanting to face his parents. But a shoelace tied from a tall pipe or whatever it was. it seemed like a very sketchy claim. and the police seemed to have fabricated the story about the gang signs considering that they were not able to produce any evidence of it.

yeah and it is possible that it was a suicide. I could see a young kid being ashamed and overcome with guilt not wanting to face his parents. But a shoelace tied from a tall pipe or whatever it was. it seemed like a very sketchy claim. and the police seemed to have fabricated the story about the gang signs considering that they were not able to produce any evidence of it.

Sums it up for me -

indeed possible, I just don't believe it

https://youtu.be/gPnEyz80W0A?t=1009

Rae Ann Mossor is one that I find hard to believe is suicide. Her holding the rifle to her own chest and somehow pulling the trigger when her arms aren't long enough? It could have been some kind of accident, but I won't ever believe it was suicide.

i won't even weigh in on specific cases here.. It's just too much a hot potato, TBH.

I do think that many of the cases that were put on UM because the family didn't think they were suicide.. Probably were suicide.

Most of them, the defense is.. "They had everything to live for.. No reason to kill themselves".. Yeah.. That's the problem. When someone gets in that state where they will kill themselves.. They can't see that.

There are cases that.. I certainly question. But.. I think the vast majority.. Basically.. "Move along.. Nothing to see here"

You're right and people don't always tell their loved ones they are struggling with those types of thoughts. Years ago I had those struggles and I would pretend to be happy around family, even laugh when I thought it was appropriate. I didn't want them to know how I felt inside because it would have only worried them. So, I know I couldn't be the only one who did that.

You're right and people don't always tell their loved ones they are struggling with those types of thoughts. Years ago I had those struggles and I would pretend to be happy around family, even laugh when I thought it was appropriate. I didn't want them to know how I felt inside because it would have only worried them. So, I know I couldn't be the only one who did that.

And.. I would suspect that people who do have those thoughts INTENTIONALLY don't talk about them for 2 reasons..

The first being.. They don't want their family to worry/freak.

But the main one.. That is basically the ultimate decision that they can make.. and they don't want it taken out of their hands. That's got to be very hard for anyone who hasn't contemplated it before, but.. Bottom line is, if you talk about it, you're ONLY going to get people trying to talk you out of it, at best, and at worst.. People actively trying to prevent it.

It's hard for many people to understand that.. You talk about it.. There's a not insignificant risk of you being wrapped up in a jacket and sent off to the funny farm "For your own good".

Sums it up for me -

indeed possible, I just don't believe it

https://youtu.be/gPnEyz80W0A?t=1009

ha, thanks for that link. that is one of my favorite interviews.

andre jones is definitely a segment that I overlooked for a long time. kind of similar to the way Mario Amado died in Mexico. You pointed out the dark history that law enforcement has in that state. it cannot be overlooked.