That is one of the most baffling cases I have ever heard of!

This girl just disappeared.

Any thoughts on this case?

It says she disappeared February 9, 2004, so she wasn't featured on the original Unsolved Mysteries since they stopped original production in 2002. However, her case might be in the new production's work but we'll have to see (if we even get to see new episodes).

They think there's a remote possibility that her case is connected to the Brianna Maitland disappearance. http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/m/maitland_brianna.html

IMO, though, I think Brianna was abducted (she was supposed to testify against someone who had previously attacked her or something like that) and Maura... I don't know what to think about her case.

It's similar to the Kristi Krebs case in that she had wrecked a car previously, three days prior, and then disappeared from the scene of this accident. Like Kristi, she was also working two jobs (plus going to nursing school, doing well enough to be on the dean's list).

One thing that's definitely different, tho, is that Maura spoke with a witness immediately after the accident, but didn't stay around to wait for the police to show up ten minutes later. She also emailed her professors in advance, lying and saying there was a death in the family so she would be out of school for several days.

I can't decide if she left the scene and was abducted by a passing motorist, if she had a Kristi Krebs type mental breakdown and disappeared because she is unstable, or if she planned the whole thing.

Intriguing case and had it occurred during the last leg of UM, it would have made a nice addition to the show's catalog.

If you've followed the case over the last 11 years, the story is ripe with different theories and possibilities. Personal issues prior to disappearing, another car accident beforehand, alcohol use, heading north on a road trip and telling no one etc.

Maura's Dad as well as police who have spoken publicly on this all seem to think she was picked up after the accident by a "bad guy". I tend to agree.

She crashed her car and almost immediately sent the closest neighbors to her aid, simply by loud sound alone. She seemed OK, despite deployment of the airbags, but asked for the police NOT to be called. Neighbors did anyway.

Police arrived 15 minutes after the first call but she was gone.

People have speculated she ran away, went off into the woods. Scent dogs and lack of footprints seemed to dispute this. Plus, it was February in NH. If you aren't prepped for the cold you will not survive out there. Its hard to fathom after 11 years if she traveled by foot, nothing was found.

So she had to have picked up in another car...and quickly.

Question is, was it a friend or stranger? Would a friend or acquaintance she was traveling with ultimately abduct her? Doubt it.

Would a driver passing by seeing a young girl in distress jump on the opportunity to get her in her vehicle and have his way with her. You bet.

Maura's car was described as having a strong alcohol smell inside. She just purchased liquor before her trip, she was a college kid who drank. She was probably intoxicated and wanted to flee as quick as possible before police arrived and asked questions. At that point she was probably willing to take a ride from anyone...

I feel this discussion wouldn't be complete without a link to James Renner's blog on the case. (http://mauramurray.blogspot.com/) I honestly don't know enough about the case to assess whether all the information on the blog is entirely accurate, though I do agree that while you understand why Fred Murray tries to paint Maura as a plucky good as gold college girl, got to agree that his stubborn refusal to pursue the possibility that his daughter was in an emotional tailspin and might have done something stupid at the time, really hampers the case.

Now THIS is a case that will make your head spin. Baffling is an understatement.

People have speculated she ran away, went off into the woods. Scent dogs and lack of footprints seemed to dispute this. Plus, it was February in NH. If you aren't prepped for the cold you will not survive out there. Its hard to fathom after 11 years if she traveled by foot, nothing was found.

Not really. The woods are deep and vast. People disappear or wander off and die in the woods all the time, and often no trace of them is found. Or sometimes their remains are found years later, near the area where they disappeared, even though the area was searched many times before. Not finding her in the woods doesn't mean she didn't go there. I think that is the most likely explanation- she wandered off in the woods and died of exposure and/or cold. Or maybe she did it on purpose. There is some speculation that she was suicidal.

I feel this discussion wouldn't be complete without a link to James Renner's blog on the case. I honestly don't know enough about the case to assess whether all the information on the blog is entirely accurate, though I do agree that while you understand why Fred Murray tries to paint Maura as a plucky good as gold college girl, got to agree that his stubborn refusal to pursue the possibility that his daughter was in an emotional tailspin and might have done something stupid at the time, really hampers the case.


Renner's blog is definitely an interesting read, though I think he stretches things a bit and brings up things that may not really be relevant to the case. And I was very turned off when he started posting pictures of random women he found on Facebook who may or may not be Maura, and then became suspicious of them when they wouldn't answer his messages. Dude, if you accused me of being a missing person and sicked all of your followers on me, I would ignore you, too. Doesn't mean I'm Maura.

As far was wandering into the woods, its possible, but I don't find it probable.

Had this been August, I'd admit, she would be in a great position to make some serious distance from her car on foot. But it was February in NH. It was dark. Cold. How far could she possibly make it? Simply stepping away from the road, you'd likely be planting your foot into a 2 foot snow bank. Reportedly, she didn't even seem to have a proper jacket, wearing sneakers. She didn't seem to have much of anything with her that would facilitate a long trek into dark and snowy woods that night.

Trudging though areas of deep snow, in 20 degree temps with socks and tennis shoes, your feet would be wet and numb in no time.

To me, it would be remarkable to effectively wander blindly in the snowy woods on foot, with virtually no supplies to speak of and make it far enough away and die in a manner that would conceal your body for over a decade, in an area where hiking is extremely popular. :confused:

Trudging though areas of deep snow, in 20 degree temps with socks and tennis shoes, your feet would be wet and numb in no time.

To me, it would be remarkable to effectively wander blindly in the snowy woods on foot, with virtually no supplies to speak of and make it far enough away and die in a manner that would conceal your body for over a decade, in an area where hiking is extremely popular. :confused:

But that's the point- you wouldn't have to go that far to be concealed. The woods are deep and remote enough that she wouldn't have to go that far to be completely enveloped by the forest. And the popular hiking was probably done on the trails, not in that particular part of the forest.

Also, she had been drinking, possibly to the point of being pretty intoxicated. She very well could have been high on liquid courage. And coupled with the fact that she was a runner in good shape, she may have thought she could make it in the woods when she really wasn't prepared.

Finally, there are some who thought she was leaving to commit suicide. That's actually the first thing Fred Murray said when he found out she had run away. "She's gone up there to drink herself to death like an old squaw." :confused: What an odd thing to say when your daughter is missing. So I think it's possible she went into the woods knowing she wouldn't survive and not caring.

I think it's possible that she was abducted or left with someone she knew, but to me, the most likely scenario is that she wandered off and died in the woods.

It is like a case that would be featured on UM in that there are all these strange details from around the time of her disappearance, but like some of those UM tales the truth about what happened is probably very simple: she ran out into those woods (and it is not surprising at all that her remains haven't been found yet).

The likelihood that it went down any other way is remote IMO.

That's the intriguing thing about the case, I'll admit just about every scenario out there is plausible, outside of alien abduction. Nothing is clear cut at all...especially when you compare it to Brianna Maitland. That seems to be a more straight forward indication of foul play, to me.

One big detail that was never clearly addressed was the several bottles of alcohol she purchased on the way to NH. Vodka, Kahlua etc. I think about 5 bottles total. Plus the boxed wine, but that was found in her car and was clearly on the police report.

Renner said all the alcohol was left in her car. Others seem skeptical of that claim.

A clear answer would definitely be helpful.

Renner's blog is good reading although I disagree with his theory that she ran off to Quebec. As for her wandering off, it is a possibility. Obviously the state she was in could have resulted in unclear thinking on her part. However a semi-suspicious character lived within sight of the accident. Maura's scent went towards his house then stopped. My working theory is that she encountered the character at the last gas station she passed (her car was full of gas so she had to have just filled up). The character was considered a friend and regular by the couple that owned the gas station. MM must have seen to be very vulnerable to anyone who saw her both before and after the accident. I think the character came across the accident and picked her up to drive to his house to use the phone (cells didn't work there) MM took the ride because she had just seen the guy at the gas station (what are the odds so guy she just saw would be a bad guy?) and his house was within sight. She was never seen again
(ps the character's ex later claimed he murdered her; pps he wouldn't let the cops into his house/trailer; ppps the character suddenly claimed a month later that he saw a girl running along the road an hour after the accident about 7-8 miles away but forgot about it even though when he got home he would have clearly seen the bruhaha down the street)

This case was greatly hindered early on by the police not knowing if they had a crime on their hands or an adult woman running away. If they had treated it like a crime and investigated the houses right near the scene I think they may have found something.

Also not all the alcohol was left in the car as wine was splattered all over the front, apparently from the boxed wine she had bought. She was apparently drinking it from a coke can as she drove. oFcourse most of the booze was still in the car because if she had drunk even a quarter of it she would have been passed out or crashed long before.

my favorite UM trope, which would clearly fit the Murray case is
that some piece of evidence is found AFTER a search of that area, like the hat of a guy who was later found in the bottom of a pond in a crashed car... sometimes they even use this for bodies (two people killed in a car crash in Minn)... as presented it means oooh oooh the killer came back and planted the evidence to taunt the police. In reality it means the original search was not well done. This has happened enough times in crimes or accidents that were eventually solvedthat the latter point is obvious.

Renner's blog is good reading although I disagree with his theory that she ran off to Quebec. As for her wandering off, it is a possibility. Obviously the state she was in could have resulted in unclear thinking on her part. However a semi-suspicious character lived within sight of the accident. Maura's scent went towards his house then stopped. My working theory is that she encountered the character at the last gas station she passed (her car was full of gas so she had to have just filled up). The character was considered a friend and regular by the couple that owned the gas station. MM must have seen to be very vulnerable to anyone who saw her both before and after the accident. I think the character came across the accident and picked her up to drive to his house to use the phone (cells didn't work there) MM took the ride because she had just seen the guy at the gas station (what are the odds so guy she just saw would be a bad guy?) and his house was within sight. She was never seen again
(ps the character's ex later claimed he murdered her; pps he wouldn't let the cops into his house/trailer; ppps the character suddenly claimed a month later that he saw a girl running along the road an hour after the accident about 7-8 miles away but forgot about it even though when he got home he would have clearly seen the bruhaha down the street)

This case was greatly hindered early on by the police not knowing if they had a crime on their hands or an adult woman running away. If they had treated it like a crime and investigated the houses right near the scene I think they may have found something.

Also not all the alcohol was left in the car as wine was splattered all over the front, apparently from the boxed wine she had bought. She was apparently drinking it from a coke can as she drove. oFcourse most of the booze was still in the car because if she had drunk even a quarter of it she would have been passed out or crashed long before.


She didn't seem to be in the right frame of mind to formulate an elaborate plan to run off and start a new life. That takes careful preparations, planning, and resources. Even so, what a bizarre way to do so...intentionally crashing, deploying the airbags with wine and booze in the car? I just can't imagine that as a possible outcome.

The guy with the house/trailer who lived nearby, says he possibly saw Maura running that night and had the Ex saying HE killed Maura...As far as I know he's been cleared. He did act pretty odd, though. Ultimately, once he sold that property police swooped in immediately and searched the house and the outside property and found nothing. I think he Ex claimed he dumped Maura into a lake. I think police explored it and seemed to conclude she was just falsely implicating him. But who knows?

But you're right. Police were lax very early on with this and may have very well botched the investigation.

Fred Murray made an interesting comment when he did the Montel show in 2004 that Maura was 'just 200 yards down the street when police arrived and if they simply drove down the street they could have picked her up'.

Very peculiar statement that could mean a number of things. Did he think she voluntarily ran away? Did he police tell him this and he let it slip? Did he conclude this from the lack of found footprints and her scent vanishing? It's just an odd thing to state so factually, without prefacing that it was of his own opinion.

As far as the alcohol, despite conflicting reports, it seems like at least some of it was gone, excluding the box wine in the car. This still baffles me because seemingly she took some bottles with her, yet left other personal belongings behind. Which could indicate a number of things, but overall I think some of the confusion here might be from senseless decisions and irrational behavior.

She didn't seem to be in the right frame of mind to formulate an elaborate plan to run off and start a new life. That takes careful preparations, planning, and resources. Even so, what a bizarre way to do so...intentionally crashing, deploying the airbags with wine and booze in the car? I just can't imagine that as a possible outcome.

The guy with the house/trailer who lived nearby, says he possibly saw Maura running that night and had the Ex saying HE killed Maura...As far as I know he's been cleared. He did act pretty odd, though. Ultimately, once he sold that property police swooped in immediately and searched the house and the outside property and found nothing. I think he Ex claimed he dumped Maura into a lake. I think police explored it and seemed to conclude she was just falsely implicating him. But who knows?

But you're right. Police were lax very early on with this and may have very well botched the investigation.

Fred Murray made an interesting comment when he did the Montel show in 2004 that Maura was 'just 200 yards down the street when police arrived and if they simply drove down the street they could have picked her up'.

Very peculiar statement that could mean a number of things. Did he think she voluntarily ran away? Did he police tell him this and he let it slip? Did he conclude this from the lack of found footprints and her scent vanishing? It's just an odd thing to state so factually, without prefacing that it was of his own opinion.

As far as the alcohol, despite conflicting reports, it seems like at least some of it was gone, excluding the box wine in the car. This still baffles me because seemingly she took some bottles with her, yet left other personal belongings behind. Which could indicate a number of things, but overall I think some of the confusion here might be from senseless decisions and irrational behavior.


The problem with Renner's theory was your first point. She wasn't very good at elaborate planning under the best of conditions. She wasn't much of a criminal-- stealing a CC number and having her ill-gotten gains delivered to her room-- and of course if she was disappearing it was a criminal enterprise because she'd be evading her court appearance. I think Renner believes she had an associate who she was meeting and being helped by but who would this be? No one else disappeared at the time, etc.

As for the contractor, I do not think the cops ruled him out per se. I think they just still have no evidence that a violent crime was committed and approached the guy with that attitude. The police actually stopped the guy's trailer as it was being transported somewhere else after he had sold it and inspected it. But too much time had passed by at that point.

Suspicious points.
1. The Ex's comments. Granted exes may make bad comments after a break-up but would your ex no matter how mad she was at you claim you murdered someone? There is some smoke on that fire...

2. The guy's siting/alibi.... this came a month after the disappearance and gave the guy an alibi (it was an hour after the accident and miles away from it). What is suspicious is that the claim was made a month afterwards. The guy claimed to be at his house about an hour after the accident yet did not notice the commotion or the searches and news reports over the next few days? I bet the cops started asking him questions and he then came up with the siting.

3. The refusal to allow a search of his trailer.

If he threw her into a lake with weights attached, she'll never be found.
If she were hiding in Canada, she'd have screwed it up somehow and been found years ago. Oh and BTW Canada is not Afghanistan. I think it would be hard to get into the country these days with a fake identity and she was not clever enough to maintain one IMO anyway.

It's surprising to me Renner seems to lean towards the "running away" theory. I think his basis is built on suspicions of Fred Murray and the family. I can understand he might think Fred is hiding information, or perhaps they had a turbulent family life. If anything, Maura turned to alcohol to cope with things but it seems like that just made matters worse. To me the idea is basically a small step up from alien abduction in terms of plausibility.

It's hard to really say for sure if Forcier (trailer guy) had any part in this. For him to pick her up and take her just down the street to his place is a huge gamble, with potential witnesses and such. But again, it's my opinion that whoever gave her a ride didn't necessarily intend to kill her, but she was probably seen as an easy victim for a sex crime, given the circumstances.

Based on Renner's blog he seemed like a harmless, free spirited kind of guy and seemingly a lot of locals seemed to back him up. But you never know.

I do think it's unlikely Maura ended up in a lake, though. Aside from the ocean, everything is pretty much frozen solid during that time of year. But waiting til the Spring thaw is possible, too.

It's surprising to me Renner seems to lean towards the "running away" theory. I think his basis is built on suspicions of Fred Murray and the family. I can understand he might think Fred is hiding information, or perhaps they had a turbulent family life. If anything, Maura turned to alcohol to cope with things but it seems like that just made matters worse. To me the idea is basically a small step up from alien abduction in terms of plausibility.

I feel the exact opposite. There are A LOT of things that point to voluntary disappearance here, too many to list.

I also feel this case is vastly overrated and am, quite frankly, sick of hearing it being discussed so much, especially since it was never on UM, nor did it deserve to be because there is no mystery here. Maura Murray was engaging in extensive criminal activity shortly before her death and was reckless enough to destroy TWO cars in a 3 day period. I won't go as far as saying she deserved to die or anything like that, but I strongly feel she was headed down a path of self-destruction and it was a matter of time before it blew up in her face.

I wouldn't necessarily say she was engaged in any criminal activity prior to her disappearance. :confused:

Sure, maybe she was slightly intoxicated when she crashed Dad's Toyota. But, that is pure speculation. The cop at the time decided that her single car crash in the early morning hours didn't warrant a sobriety test. So either he really didn't care and just wanted to finish his shift or she hid it well...or maybe she was driving home from a party and truly was sober. No one knows for sure. Yes, both crashes seem to point to alcohol, but conclusively we'll never know.

Yeah, she got nabbed for using a credit card that wasn't hers. Hardly an extensive criminal history by any means.

UM was a great show don't get me wrong. And there are many more engaging mysteries out there besides Maura Murray. But, by all means it would have been a fine segment for the show. It's a pretty opened ended mystery and UM wouldn't even have to add their usual spin of countless possible explanations...unless they wanted to add "falling into a parallel dimension" or whatever. :rolleyes:

But in the end, maybe segments featuring lake monsters and mysterious disappearances that were obviously foul play...but could have been alien abductions...were better suited for the show. :shrug:

I wouldn't necessarily say she was engaged in any criminal activity prior to her disappearance. :confused:

Sure, maybe she was slightly intoxicated when she crashed Dad's Toyota. But, that is pure speculation. The cop at the time decided that her single car crash in the early morning hours didn't warrant a sobriety test. So either he really didn't care and just wanted to finish his shift or she hid it well...or maybe she was driving home from a party and truly was sober. No one knows for sure. Yes, both crashes seem to point to alcohol, but conclusively we'll never know.

Yeah, she got nabbed for using a credit card that wasn't hers. Hardly an extensive criminal history by any means.

UM was a great show don't get me wrong. And there are many more engaging mysteries out there besides Maura Murray. But, by all means it would have been a fine segment for the show. It's a pretty opened ended mystery and UM wouldn't even have to add their usual spin of countless possible explanations...unless they wanted to add "falling into a parallel dimension" or whatever. :rolleyes:

But in the end, maybe segments featuring lake monsters and mysterious disappearances that were obviously foul play...but could have been alien abductions...were better suited for the show. :shrug:

She didn't engage in criminal activity before her disappearance? She stole a credit card, thus committing both theft AND identity theft. Multiple offenses. She had more than a few bottles of liquor in the car and I'm willing to bet that not only did she drink and drive, but also that she was drinking while driving. Why else would she have refused help? You don't wreck two cars in three days and are sober unless you're a *really* horrible driver.

Sorry I don't have any time for the Murrays. I had to sit through this case again yesterday because I'm making a 20/20 set and this case popped up there. She was a white, beautiful young college student, so naturally the media descended on it like vultures, usually glossing over or completely leaving off the part about her stealing credit cards.

And Maura's father kept grating on my nerves in the 20/20 piece. Everything from interrupting the New Hampshire governor during a meeting, to lambasting him because he couldn't release documents (it's an ongoing investigation!) and his chiding well-wishers as having some ulterior motive for wishing him "good luck" in his efforts.

Somehow, Haverhill, New Hampshire doesn't strike me as being a hotbed of criminal activity. Yes, crime can happen anywhere, but for me, the only question is did she die from the elements or did she start a new life somewhere? Because I'm relatively certain there wasn't a random perp waiting to strike her in a rural area of one of the smallest, least populated and low-crime states in the nation.

Sorry I don't have any time for the Murrays. I had to sit through this case again yesterday because I'm making a 20/20 set and this case popped up there. She was a white, beautiful young college student, so naturally the media descended on it like vultures, usually glossing over or completely leaving off the part about her stealing credit cards.

I think the most likely scenario is that she took off and went into hiding but, I'm sorry, I still can't help but be intrigued over trying to connect the dots over how and why she would take off. What was the deciding factor that would make her go to this extreme? If it was the first car accident, that would leave her one whole day to plan her disappearance. But still, she was not given a breathalyzer and not given a DUI. If she was indeed intoxicated, she got away with it and the incident would not go on her record. So I can't see that as being the official motivation for her to leave forever.

The credit card fraud issue is even more bizarre. Maura was an extremely intelligent girl and a straight A student all her life. Surely she would know that credit card orders could easily be traced back to her. She never gave a fake name on those pizza orders which, combined together, equaled a total of $79.02. This incident landed her on probation but she was told that the charges would be dropped if she kept her nose clean for the next 3 months which, by all accounts, she did. So again, a serious offense was avoided and would not effect her ability to stay in the nursing program at school.

I guess in the end, there doesn't need to be a complete logical explanation to disappear forever if she was bipolar or maybe suffering from some other mental illness but I can't help but want to know. And I'd really like Maura's loved ones to have some official answers. Two of her best friends since childhood were interviewed on the "Disappeared" episode and they were obviously devastated and crying during their interviews. I felt awful for them.

The credit card fraud issue is even more bizarre. Maura was an extremely intelligent girl and a straight A student all her life. Surely she would know that credit card orders could easily be traced back to her. She never gave a fake name on those pizza orders which, combined together, equaled a total of $79.02. This incident landed her on probation but she was told that the charges would be dropped if she kept her nose clean for the next 3 months which, by all accounts, she did. So again, a serious offense was avoided and would not effect her ability to stay in the nursing program at school.

Sorry friend, but I don't buy she was the goody-two-shoes that Fred likes to make her out to be. She also got busted for stealing at West Point, so she's definitely a little klepto. If you believe everything on Renner's blog, that, combined with her known alcohol issues, got her kicked out of West Point, and she was in danger of being kicked out of UMass as well. I could totally see her running away to start a new life to evade all of her problems, and that could likely result in additional criminal charges for her considering all of the money people have spent looking for her and the grief she has caused everyone.

Man, that Murray family is something else, aren't they?

Fred (father) - a liar and a nuisance who evaded questions and police for years.

Kathleen (oldest sister) - in and out of rehab for years, recently busted for growing pot in Vermont, known to associate with bad people.

Laurie (mother) - had an affair with a convicted murderer and had a child with him, resulting in her and Fred's divorce.

Fred Jr. (brother) - another klepto and habitual drug offender.

With all of that being said, I could totally buy one of them or several of them working in collusion being involved in this somehow.

Sorry friend, but I don't buy she was the goody-two-shoes that Fred likes to make her out to be. She also got busted for stealing at West Point, so she's definitely a little klepto. If you believe everything on Renner's blog, that, combined with her known alcohol issues, got her kicked out of West Point, and she was in danger of being kicked out of UMass as well. I could totally see her running away to start a new life to evade all of her problems, and that could likely result in additional criminal charges for her considering all of the money people have spent looking for her and the grief she has caused everyone.

I'm not arguing that she was a goody-two-shoes. She was obviously having some issues and troubles in her life under the surface. Being dismissed from West Point may have been the start of that.

The fact that she carried out the credit card fraud just floors me because she had to have known that the orders would be traced back to her. She wasn't dumb. Yet she did it anyway. It's majorly confusing.

Renner's blog is amazing. But I don't remember reading that she was in any danger of being kicked out of UMass. The possible DUI had been avoided and I've never read of any other incidents from November 2003 until the first car accident that would have put her academic career in any danger.

Fred Muarry is a very frustrating individual, though. Refusing to tell police for years what happened with Maura the days leading up to her disappearance makes no sense. Airing your daughter's dirty laundry seems like a logical price to pay if it helps you in any way locate your child. That's why I get the nagging feeling he might have helped her vanish in some way.

I'm sorry. I know you really don't care for this case. But some aspects still confuse me.

I'm not arguing that she was a goody-two-shoes. She was obviously having some issues and troubles in her life under the surface. Being dismissed from West Point may have been the start of that.

The fact that she carried out the credit card fraud just floors me because she had to have known that the orders would be traced back to her. She wasn't dumb. Yet she did it anyway. It's majorly confusing.

Renner's blog is amazing. But I don't remember reading that she was in any danger of being kicked out of UMass. The possible DUI had been avoided and I've never read of any other incidents from November 2003 until the first car accident that would have put her academic career in any danger.

Fred Muarry is a very frustrating individual, though. Refusing to tell police for years what happened with Maura the days leading up to her disappearance makes no sense. Airing your daughter's dirty laundry seems like a logical price to pay if it helps you in any way locate your child. That's why I get the nagging feeling he might have helped her vanish in some way.

I'm sorry. I know you really don't care for this case. But some aspects still confuse me.

I thought I had read Renner's blog in its entirety. Maybe not, as you folks are mentioning some things that I wasn't aware of. I was aware of her criminal activity prior to her disappearance. I agree with Dynoguy, however. It appears as if most of it was swept under the rug and should not have influenced a potential decision to run away.

The sheer amount of alcohol in the vehicle, combined with the fact that she was in two accidents in a very short span of time, lead me to believe that she had a rather serious drinking problem. I'm not sure if she was suicidal, but she definitely had some issues that probably needed addressing. I agree with the thought that she was probably drinking while driving and the second wreck was caused that way.

For years, I've dismissed this case as one where she was drunk, she got into a car wreck, and she stumbled off into the wilderness, only to succumb to the elements. If animals got her body, she could never be found. I definitely want to look at Renner's blog again, but I'm still leaning in that direction.

Anyone seen the article James Renner, like our friend Robin W, wrote for Cracked? It's worth a read (http://www.cracked.com/personal-experiences-1614-i-hunt-serial-killers-6-insane-realities-my-life.html).

James Renner's blog is simply amazing. So much so that I felt compelled to send him an e-mail to thank him and tell him how amazing his work was (he e-mailed me back). He's also done work on other cases, including Amy Mihaljevic, which was profiled on Missing: Reward. Tremendous investigative work. He has literally wrote the books on these cases (the one on Maura is scheduled to be released next year).

I was unaware he was doing a podcast about it. That might be an interesting listen.

Either it was a voluntary disappearance or an accident and she has just yet to be found. I find foul play highly unlikely.

I was unaware he was doing a podcast about it. That might be an interesting listen.

Either it was a voluntary disappearance or an accident and she has just yet to be found. I find foul play highly unlikely.


It's not his podcast. It's one done by two men who are making a documentary about Maura. I'm listening to episode one now. It's good.

James Renner's blog is simply amazing. So much so that I felt compelled to send him an e-mail to thank him and tell him how amazing his work was (he e-mailed me back). He's also done work on other cases, including Amy Mihaljevic, which was profiled on Missing: Reward. Tremendous investigative work. He has literally wrote the books on these cases (the one on Maura is scheduled to be released next year).

He is amazing.

Too bad Fred Muarry has advised all of Maura's friends not to speak with him. :rolleyes:

It's not his podcast. It's one done by two men who are making a documentary about Maura. I'm listening to episode one now. It's good.Ah, I missed that. Sounds good, I think I'll give it a go then.

He is amazing.

Too bad Fred Muarry has advised all of Maura's friends not to speak with him. :rolleyes:

Personally, I find Fred to be a truly revolting individual. I am completely convinced he has no real interest in finding his daughter (because he either knows what happened to her or is financing her new identity) and is merely mugging for the cameras. I also find it suspicious he says he visits that area in New Hampshire every weekend (really a beard for visiting Maura perhaps?). The only other relatives of a missing person he has ever reached out to was Brooke Wilberger's loved ones and she was, you guessed it, another attractive white young college student. Now, what happened to Brooke was horrible and she and her loved ones deserve a lot of sympathy, but I strongly feel Fred is an attention...something rather.

There's also this paragraph about Fred from a poster on Renner's blog:

"Consider: yearbook pictures of his nieces in the centerfold of a pornographic magazine at his house; ardent efforts to discredit a journalist who has spent enormous amounts of time and money to look for his daughter, before that journalist began to question his role in the case; NOT wanting a book to publicize his missing daughter's case; saying revolting things about his daughter ("we'll find her naked on the top of the mountain"); not participating meaningfully, by at least two accounts, in searches for his daughter, but playing it up for the camera; fabricating at least one element of his story to the UMASS police (that of "picking up Kate in a student lot," which is not at all plausible based on analysis and evidence I collected in June and documented here), along with MANY other contradictions, such as the "suicide" to "dirtbag" transformation; at least three people with no apparent reason for a bias against him, severely questioning his candor, ethics and morality with specific examples that call into question his perspective on his daughter's disappearance; more than a few indications that Maura was abused."

the information Renner discovered about six months ago where Maura was shopping at a supermarket in Woodsville with her two best friends from UMass an hour before the accident changes the complexity of the case greatly. The duo have been interviewed and never mentioned it and generally have refused to talk. It seems that there were two cars and one probably picked Maura up after the accident. The girls were back in school shortly thereafter.
Ironically they bought even more booze and then the three went across the street to McDonald's.

Conjecture on did she pack her stuff, why and where was she going, etc. these girls have always known the answers.

Also the father seemingly knew this information almost immediately. But apparently the police did not. This puts the "random dirtbag" theory in a different light. The big search, the suing the state to get records, etc. It just seems the answer was there all along but was not pursued.

Precisely. The 2 friends have also remained tight-lipped and/or flat out lied about the party just before Maura's disappearance. Apparently Maura has one good sister and one good brother, everyone else connected to the case reeks up to the high heavens, IMO. But Fred is still out there because he won't be satisfied until he has sucked up every ounce of publicity he can get for himself. I'm just surprised he hasn't blown a gasket trying to get everyone to realize there is a beautiful, straight-A college student who has gone missing under suspicious circumstances, BY GAWD!!!

I'm backwards-reading Renner's blog. I have missed a lot, apparently.

I'm beginning to lean towards voluntary disappearance. It sounds like she had a lot of reasons to want to escape her life.

It's surprising to me Renner seems to lean towards the "running away" theory. I think his basis is built on suspicions of Fred Murray and the family. I can understand he might think Fred is hiding information, or perhaps they had a turbulent family life. If anything, Maura turned to alcohol to cope with things but it seems like that just made matters worse. To me the idea is basically a small step up from alien abduction in terms of plausibility.

It's hard to really say for sure if Forcier (trailer guy) had any part in this. For him to pick her up and take her just down the street to his place is a huge gamble, with potential witnesses and such. But again, it's my opinion that whoever gave her a ride didn't necessarily intend to kill her, but she was probably seen as an easy victim for a sex crime, given the circumstances.

Based on Renner's blog he seemed like a harmless, free spirited kind of guy and seemingly a lot of locals seemed to back him up. But you never know.

I do think it's unlikely Maura ended up in a lake, though. Aside from the ocean, everything is pretty much frozen solid during that time of year. But waiting til the Spring thaw is possible, too.

Nah. I think Renner's suspicions arose after finding out that Fred and her friends were portraying Maura as a perfect person and that this all was a shock.

We know Maura was committing CC fraud. That she was having an affair with a teacher. That she was possibly considering dropping out of school. That she told a boss that a family member had died and she needed a break, when no family member was dead. And that she most likely was drinking and driving.

Thats where the suspicions come into play. If she was portrayed accurately thats one thing, but to act like "I am SHOCKED this happened" is disingenuous at best on the part of Fred and her friends.

She clearly had some DEEP personal issues rearing their heads at that moment. Whether it was a breakdown and that led to her death, or that she met a person and that led to foul play and murder, who knows.

But the main point is, the portrayal of Maura needs to be accurate. And it isn't. Not by her friends or father at least.

I think the most likely scenario is that she took off and went into hiding but, I'm sorry, I still can't help but be intrigued over trying to connect the dots over how and why she would take off. What was the deciding factor that would make her go to this extreme? If it was the first car accident, that would leave her one whole day to plan her disappearance. But still, she was not given a breathalyzer and not given a DUI. If she was indeed intoxicated, she got away with it and the incident would not go on her record. So I can't see that as being the official motivation for her to leave forever.

The credit card fraud issue is even more bizarre. Maura was an extremely intelligent girl and a straight A student all her life. Surely she would know that credit card orders could easily be traced back to her. She never gave a fake name on those pizza orders which, combined together, equaled a total of $79.02. This incident landed her on probation but she was told that the charges would be dropped if she kept her nose clean for the next 3 months which, by all accounts, she did. So again, a serious offense was avoided and would not effect her ability to stay in the nursing program at school.

I guess in the end, there doesn't need to be a complete logical explanation to disappear forever if she was bipolar or maybe suffering from some other mental illness but I can't help but want to know. And I'd really like Maura's loved ones to have some official answers. Two of her best friends since childhood were interviewed on the "Disappeared" episode and they were obviously devastated and crying during their interviews. I felt awful for them.

There wasn't a deciding factor. She was engaging in CC fraud. Having an affair with a teacher, lied to bosses about family deaths, took off without telling friends and family, crashed two cars in 3 days, and was drinking and driving.

Its not just one event.

Yep. My opinion has been swayed. I believe she is likely alive.

The question of whether her family knows where she is, however, I am not clear on. I can see the scenario playing out both ways.

There wasn't a deciding factor. She was engaging in CC fraud. Having an affair with a teacher, lied to bosses about family deaths, took off without telling friends and family, crashed two cars in 3 days, and was drinking and driving.

Its not just one event.

O.K., so her issues could have mounted over time but there still comes the exact day when she officially decides that she is going to take this dramatic step; to leave her many loved ones (a large family, a boyfriend of 3 1/2 years, 6 best friends since childhood and college acquaintances/friends), completely abandon these people forever to start a new life only GOD knows where. I'm still curious to know when exactly she thought this was the best option for her. She had a stronger support system of people than most have. It just seems so extreme.

I don't know. I'm trying to figure out her state of mind in doing this (or even wanting to do this) but maybe in the end, there are no logical answers. I just listened to Episode 5 of the Missing Maura Muarry podcast and they played a 5 second preview for episode 6 where James Renner will be interviewed and he says he believes that Maura is a sociopath. Maybe that is the bottom line.

O.K., so her issues could have mounted over time but there still comes the exact day when she officially decides that she is going to take this dramatic step; to leave her many loved ones (a large family, a boyfriend of 3 1/2 years, 6 best friends since childhood and college acquaintances/friends), completely abandon these people forever to start a new life only GOD knows where. I'm still curious to know when exactly she thought this was the best option for her. She had a stronger support system of people than most have. It just seems so extreme.

After everything I have read and posted above, I have doubts that Maura was that close to her family. Several of them were "bad seeds" as it were and I wouldn't be surprised if there was a fair amount of friction within the family. She was also cheating on her boyfriend, so they may not have been that close either. I think he may have been cheating as well. She could just as easily make new friends elsewhere.

One of the things that indicates to me she ran away was that she had packed up her room and took several things with her that she would have normally kept in her dorm.

O.K., so her issues could have mounted over time but there still comes the exact day when she officially decides that she is going to take this dramatic step; to leave her many loved ones (a large family, a boyfriend of 3 1/2 years, 6 best friends since childhood and college acquaintances/friends), completely abandon these people forever to start a new life only GOD knows where. I'm still curious to know when exactly she thought this was the best option for her. She had a stronger support system of people than most have. It just seems so extreme.

I don't know. I'm trying to figure out her state of mind in doing this (or even wanting to do this) but maybe in the end, there are no logical answers. I just listened to Episode 5 of the Missing Maura Muarry podcast and they played a 5 second preview for episode 6 where James Renner will be interviewed and he says he believes that Maura is a sociopath. Maybe that is the bottom line.


I would say it was probably when she e-mailed her teacher and lied and said a family member died and she needed some time off. The first car accident also I think was a pivotal event.

I just don't see how this person as described would be savvy enough to pull this "new life" off without any trace (no CC records, no contact with anyone from the past, etc). In the past decade it is not easy to assume a completely new identity from scratch unless you're willing to live completely off the grid, and I don't think that's likely here.

I just don't see how this person as described would be savvy enough to pull this "new life" off without any trace (no CC records, no contact with anyone from the past, etc). In the past decade it is not easy to assume a completely new identity from scratch unless you're willing to live completely off the grid, and I don't think that's likely here.

She's described as being very intelligent, so I don't think she wouldn't have the savvy. I also think she probably has had contact with friends and family members and considering that some of them are known liars, they aren't saying anything.

I just don't see how this person as described would be savvy enough to pull this "new life" off without any trace (no CC records, no contact with anyone from the past, etc). In the past decade it is not easy to assume a completely new identity from scratch unless you're willing to live completely off the grid, and I don't think that's likely here.

Im not sure either. But its clear her life prior to her disappearance was high stress and she was making major life changes, considering them, and was having a breakdown of sorts. Crashing two cars in the matter of a few weeks.

There is also the suggestion that her father went and visited her a few weeks before her disappearance and gave her several thousand dollars. One wonders if he knew of her affair with a teacher, her CC fraud and her plans to drop out of school before hand too.

We've got two possibilities. One, that she engineered this crash, and met a friend up the road that day, who got her out of the country, and to safety.

or two, that she legitimately crashed, and dazed, confused or scared, she went up the road and knocked on someones door, and that person ultimately killed her.

Im not sure either. But its clear her life prior to her disappearance was high stress and she was making major life changes, considering them, and was having a breakdown of sorts. Crashing two cars in the matter of a few weeks.

Not so much breakdown but rather drinking and driving.

We've got two possibilities. One, that she engineered this crash, and met a friend up the road that day, who got her out of the country, and to safety.

or two, that she legitimately crashed, and dazed, confused or scared, she went up the road and knocked on someones door, and that person ultimately killed her.

or three, she ran from the authorities because she didn't want them to discover her crime and she got lost in the woods and died of exposure.

I just finished listening to podcast episode #6, which interviewed James Renner. And my reaction is just...wow.

I've spent so much time wondering why she would choose to leave on her own but now I've shifted to wondering why her father helped orchestrate the whole damn thing. And the WTF facts stink to high heaven even before Maura was in that first car accident.

There was never anyone who could confirm that Fred and Maura were searching for a new car that weekend. And for some reason, Fred withdrew a total of $4,000 from several different ATM's (supposedly for the car down payment) when a down payment could easily be much less money or he could have, you know, just written a check. Yet he, or someone, went to ATM after ATM after ATM after ATM withdrawing the cash. Even more puzzling, Renner said Fred Murray's house was being foreclosed at that time. So buying a new car for his daughter at that time seems rather odd, does it not?

It should also be noted that Maura never told a single person she came in contact with that weekend that she was ever planning on looking for a new car.

Then you have the two friends (Kate Markopoulos and Sara Alfieri) who were with Maura the entire night of the first car accident at a party. When Renner asked Kate who else was at the party that night, she said it was too long ago to remember a single person. Coincidentally, just days after Maura vanished in 2004 and police asked her the same question, she also said she couldn't remember a single person who was at the party....even though only two days had passed. There was no party.

Sarah Alfieri has stated since the beginning that she refuses to talk to anybody (in regards to what happened that day) but Fred Murray. Renner finally tracked her down last year. He went to her apartment, introduced himself and told her why he was there. Her immediate reaction was panic and the first words out of her mouth were, "How did you find me?" before she slammed the door in his face.

Kate Markopoulos vanished off the map around the same time Maura did and wasn't seen until she resurfaced after two days.

Aside from that ball of madness, you have Fred Murray, who spent years avoiding police questions, refusing to speak of anything in regards to what Maura did the days leading up to her disappearance, contradicting his stories, telling Renner he did NOT want a book or any more publicity about Maura, advising Maura's friends not to speak with Renner. It...makes...no....sense.

These are not the actions of a parent who desperately wants to find his missing child, dead or alive. Compare it to Jeremy Bright's mother, Diane, who has posted here. She read through every single page of the Jeremy Bright thread with a box of tissues, wiping away the tears because she was so touched that people were discussing her son's case at all. Now compare that to Fred. One of these things is not like the other.

What the hell happened that was so serious that Fred and the family have kept up such a lazy charade? You don't orchestrate your own disappearance because you got busted for charging $80.00 worth of food on to someone else's credit card. You do it if you've killed someone or fingered someone dangerous that makes you have to go into witness protection.

It seems whatever happened was planned out long before the first and second car accidents...which just makes my head spin more. :crazy:

Fred lived in a crap house in the city of Weymouth, Massachusetts that is now condemned. The house is packed wall to wall with junk and Fred is still listed as living there. The Murrays owe back taxes on it.

I find it very suspicious that Fred would withdraw that kind of cash in one weekend. Usually ATM's, for security purposes, put a daily limit on how much you can withdraw, usually $200 or $300. I'm thinking he either stole a card himself or was financing Maura's disappearance, probably the latter.

Maybe she was pregnant with the assistant track coach's child and the Murrays thought the scandal would be too much to handle?!?

I have no idea. But I agree with Dynoguy. It's baffling. The whole thing. NOTHING, at least from what I've seen, was that serious that warranted running away and starting a new life.

Maura had done searches on her computer the day before her disappearance relating to pregnancy, specifically the effects of excessive drinking on an unborn fetus.

I *really* wish the media would stop taking such a one-sided view to this case.

Maybe she was pregnant with the assistant track coach's child and the Murrays thought the scandal would be too much to handle?!?

I have no idea. But I agree with Dynoguy. It's baffling. The whole thing. NOTHING, at least from what I've seen, was that serious that warranted running away and starting a new life.

The timeline would make it impossible. The secret romance with the track coach took place the spring and part of the summer before she went missing, a period between 7-10 months in advance. They had one visit together early in the summer and then she cut off all contact with him for months. She didn't reply to any of his emails, texts and messages. Two months later, Fall classes began and he was finally able to track her down. She told him she had gotten back together with her boyfriend, Billy. She had already quit the track team by then and by all accounts, the relationship was over. Then five months later, she disappeared.

Granted, she could have gotten pregnant by someone else but I think that's grasping at straws. There would be other easier ways of dealing with an unwanted pregnancy in secret without having to go to the extreme of disappearing forever. And the Murray family was not a massive political group of people. The only "scandal" that could do any damage would be to Fred's ego.

Like you said, nothing that's known by law enforcement is serious enough to justify disappearing forever. Yet, certain members of the family and Maura's two friends from UMass remain committed to covering this up. That can only mean that they know of some massive serious crime that involves Maura, not known to the public that they are hellbent on keeping secret. It's the only explanation that makes sense, IMO.

As much as I like reading Renner's blog, I couldn't disagree with him more about what happened to Maura. It's ironic, as much as he laments about Fred having some secret agenda, Renner keeps the focus on Maura being alive and well and tries to discredit any other possible outcomes. I suppose if we carry on with the notion she is alive it stays on our minds and helps sell his book. :lol:

Whether she was pregnant, a sociopath, a criminal mastermind...the chances of her being alive at this point are virtually nil, IMO.

As much as I like reading Renner's blog, I couldn't disagree with him more about what happened to Maura. It's ironic, as much as he laments about Fred having some secret agenda, Renner keeps the focus on Maura being alive and well and tries to discredit any other possible outcomes. I suppose if we carry on with the notion she is alive it stays on our minds and helps sell his book. :lol:

Whether she was pregnant, a sociopath, a criminal mastermind...the chances of her being alive at this point are virtually nil, IMO.

Kind of like how Fred tries to discount anything that proves Maura wasn't the goody-two-shoes the media portrays her as?

I'm not gonna calculate odds here. Let's just say the odds of her still being alive are greater than 0%. Heck, even if we knew for a fact she ran into a perp, there would still be a chance she could be alive.

I've personally communicated with Renner and he's a very nice guy and has done tremendous work on this and other cases. He keeps cases in the spotlight that otherwise would go dead cold. I definitely don't think he's purposefully barking up the wrong tree to sell books.

I also wanted to state that Maura was a habitual thief. Yes, a person can technically state that she "only stole $79.02" from the credit card, or whatever the amount was. That isn't the real issue. The issue is that not only did she steal the credit card number, but she used it on many occasions. This is in addition to what she stole when she was as West Point. This wasn't a one-time mistake for her, it was a compulsion. She cared not at all about all the fear and inconvenience she put the credit card holder through.

And I also find her outright lie to her professor that she had a "death in the family" to be rather tacky, at the very least. No doubt she knew her legal issues were mounting and the whole "death in the family" was an attempt to evoke sympathy out of people in the event that UMass was in the process of kicking her out like West Point.

Maura is probably living the high life somewhere. She needs to come out of hiding and her friends and family need to stop this ridiculous charade they've been carrying on for over a decade now.

The only recorded acts of theft that have ever seen the light of day is the single $70-something fraudulent credit card charge and talk that she stole cosmetics of some kind while at West Point.

I'd hardly put her in the kleptomaniac category.

I've never seen any police report stating she made numerous charges on the credit card, nor anything official with the cosmetics. So we have one recorded incident and a possibility of another.

Maybe she's a bit compulsive, but hardly a criminal. I doubt we are going to find anything to substantiate she was a horrible, troubled girl versus a girl who made a few mistakes. Unless we count late movie rentals and parking tickets. In that case, I'm a straight thug.

And I also find her outright lie to her professor that she had a "death in the family" to be rather tacky, at the very least. No doubt she knew her legal issues were mounting and the whole "death in the family" was an attempt to evoke sympathy out of people in the event that UMass was in the process of kicking her out like West Point.

But there were no legal troubles mounting on her part. The only legal problem she had was the credit card fraud which landed her on probation but all charges were to be dropped if she kept her nose clean. And the three months that followed, there were no other reported behavior problems on her part so her record was about to be clean.

There was no criminal charges pressed against her for the makeup theft from West Point. Her punishment was being dismissed from the school.

The car accident with her dad's car could have been attributed to alcohol but we'll never know for sure. It's just speculation. And the police officer did NOT issue her a DUI so this didn't go on her record.

She was in no danger of flunking or being kicked out of UMass. She was on the Dean's List the previous semester. If the second car accident in New Hampshire was due to alcohol, she might have been in danger of being kicked out of the nursing program but not out of school. But despite this, all signs seem to indicate she was planning on leaving long before that accident anyway.

The email to her professors about a death in the family, you may think it's tacky but I think it's absolutely normal behavior of a college kid. Kids have been using that excuse since the beginning of time, right along with the dog ate my homework.

Absolutely nothing she did was serious enough to leave forever. That's why this whole ordeal is so insanely puzzling. Yet her father and her friends' actions from UMass about that entire weekend make no sense and are VERY suspicious.

Wasn't featured in the new episodes either, this would have been a perfect candidate for a case and I remember following this story back in 2004.

Was it ever solved?

Dynoguy...can you elaborate on what actions her father and friends did that would be deemed, "suspicious?"

I haven't heard anything about this aspect of the case, and would love to hear more details. :-)

The only recorded acts of theft that have ever seen the light of day is the single $70-something fraudulent credit card charge and talk that she stole cosmetics of some kind while at West Point.

I'd hardly put her in the kleptomaniac category.

I've never seen any police report stating she made numerous charges on the credit card, nor anything official with the cosmetics. So we have one recorded incident and a possibility of another.

Maybe she's a bit compulsive, but hardly a criminal. I doubt we are going to find anything to substantiate she was a horrible, troubled girl versus a girl who made a few mistakes. Unless we count late movie rentals and parking tickets. In that case, I'm a straight thug.

Do you know of any 120 pound lady who can down $80 worth of pizza in one sitting? This may come as a surprise to you, but stealing somebody's credit card number and running up charges on it is a criminal act. It's theft, identity theft and fraud. They are serious charges. Not to mention the drunk driving that endangered the lives of everyone she crossed path with those nights.

In case you still don't believe me (which you almost assuredly won't) you can read about it yourself. 6 charges made to 3 different businesses. You can also read about how she lied her ass off when confronted about the theft by the police officers.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7_atAFvowRhcy1kTnEzbXRCUDg/view?pli=1

The theft of the cosmetics isn't some vague comment coming from an anonymous person with a grudge against Maura, it came directly from one of her friends, said friend also believes Maura has started a new life somewhere, and said she was told by the Murrays to not say negative things about Maura publically. If you'd like to read that for yourself, here is the link:
http://mauramurray.blogspot.com/2014/02/revelations-of-west-point.html

A bit compulsive? We know she stole things from other people on at least 7 occasions, and had planned on more. The only reason she stopped was because she was caught.

You seem to be a rather hardcore defender of Maura and the unlikely notion that she ran into foul play at the hands of a bogeyman. May I ask you what compels you to feel this way? Please be as specific as possible.

The car accident with her dad's car could have been attributed to alcohol but we'll never know for sure. It's just speculation. And the police officer did NOT issue her a DUI so this didn't go on her record.

When you consider she had stockpiled on booze, was reportedly partying heavily in the 3 days before she went missing, and also had 2 accidents in this timeframe, I certainly know what I believe.

Police report indicating a Coke bottle with a red liquid and a strong odor of alcohol found in second car:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7_atAFvowRhT2hNLUd2UVlUc1U/view

It also looks like Fred had a problem with the drunk driving himself. Runs in the family?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7_atAFvowRhMmlyRUpNcDU2R3c/view

She was in no danger of flunking or being kicked out of UMass. She was on the Dean's List the previous semester. If the second car accident in New Hampshire was due to alcohol, she might have been in danger of being kicked out of the nursing program but not out of school. But despite this, all signs seem to indicate she was planning on leaving long before that accident anyway.

That's impossible to say, we don't know what was going on behind the scenes. She had already been kicked out of one school, so it isn't a huge stretch to think a second one was considering. We know she's committed crimes, which certainly didn't help her situation any. And she was probably in danger of losing her campus security job too, since people would probably have an issue with a thief and criminal holding a position like that.

The email to her professors about a death in the family, you may think it's tacky but I think it's absolutely normal behavior of a college kid. Kids have been using that excuse since the beginning of time, right along with the dog ate my homework.

I'm not sure what college you attended, but where I attended it was absolutely NOT normal behavior. First of all, it's a lie, and secondly, it's using deception to evoke sympathy out of people. Not too many college professors are going to challenge the "death in the family" excuse because it makes them seem uncaring. "Dog ate my homework" is something 7 year old kids use in second grade, not when they're grown adults in college, and in Maura's case, a few months away from being in a position where people's physical well-being was going to be placed in her care.

Well this is interesting.

on 2/6/04 at 12:20 a.m., Petrit Vasi was found unconscious by Amherst police. The area in which he was found was within walking distance of where Maura was "working" at the time. 40 minutes later at 1:00 a.m., Maura reportedly receives a distressing phone call that upset her so much she had to leave work. Petrit received extensive head injuries, was in a coma for two months and nearly died. Swerve marks near the scene of where Vasi was found indicated he was the victim of a hit and run accident. Money was also stolen out of his wallet. The story about this made the local newspaper on 2/9/04, the same day Maura disappeared.

My personal theory is that Maura left her job, intended to make a quick trip somewhere, was drunk and struck Vasi, stopped to assess the situation, realized Vasi was seriously injured, stole his money (we know she likes to steal things) left the scene of the accident and returned to her job like nothing happened. Once news of her victims injuries hit the papers, she hightailed on out of there in order to live it up elsewhere while Vasi spends the rest of his life suffering from the effects of a drunk driver and known criminal.

Well this is interesting.

on 2/6/04 at 12:20 a.m., Petrit Vasi was found unconscious by Amherst police. The area in which he was found was within walking distance of where Maura was "working" at the time. 40 minutes later at 1:00 a.m., Maura reportedly receives a distressing phone call that upset her so much she had to leave work. Petrit received extensive head injuries, was in a coma for two months and nearly died. Swerve marks near the scene of where Vasi was found indicated he was the victim of a hit and run accident. Money was also stolen out of his wallet. The story about this made the local newspaper on 2/9/04, the same day Maura disappeared.

My personal theory is that Maura left her job, intended to make a quick trip somewhere, was drunk and struck Vasi, stopped to assess the situation, realized Vasi was seriously injured, stole his money (we know she likes to steal things) left the scene of the accident and returned to her job like nothing happened. Once news of her victims injuries hit the papers, she hightailed on out of there in order to live it up elsewhere while Vasi spends the rest of his life suffering from the effects of a drunk driver and known criminal.

I've heard this before and it sounds like a perfect theory on the surface, but James Renner himself seems to believe it's very unlikely and doesn't think that Maura could have left her job for that period of time and made it back without anyone noticing she was gone:
http://mauramurray.blogspot.ca/2012/01/petrit-vasi-connection-is-highly.html

Some people have speculated that someone else could have committed the hit-and-run while borrowing Maura's car, but I don't see why she would go to the trouble of staging a disappearance over a crime that she herself never actually committed.

That said, if Renner didn't have so much skepticism about this scenario, I'd believe it in a heartbeat.

I've heard this before and it sounds like a perfect theory on the surface, but James Renner himself seems to believe it's very unlikely and doesn't think that Maura could have left her job for that period of time and made it back without anyone noticing she was gone:
http://mauramurray.blogspot.ca/2012/01/petrit-vasi-connection-is-highly.html

Some people have speculated that someone else could have committed the hit-and-run while borrowing Maura's car, but I don't see why she would go to the trouble of staging a disappearance over a crime that she herself never actually committed.

That said, if Renner didn't have so much skepticism about this scenario, I'd believe it in a heartbeat.

Renner is all over the place with his beliefs.

It's also interesting to note the following: Maura's first car crash was causing $10,000 worth of damage to her father's new car. With that out of commission, she was forced to drive her own 96 Saturn, which by accounts she didn't like driving because 'it wasn't a reliable car', though I'm willing to wager she didn't take care of it properly since Saturns are quality made American cars.

That same Saturn was the car she wrecked in the second accident in New Hampshire. Here I think either one of 2 scenarios are possible:

1) she was drinking and driving and caused the accident.
2) she intentionally crashed as an attempt to cover up any damage caused to the car when she struck Vasi.

And you have to ask yourself, why on Earth would she drive an "unreliable" car, which she didn't even like driving around town, up to another state she wasn't totally familiar with in snowy road conditions? It makes no sense. I'm wondering if she just didn't care what happened to her and planned on committing suicide. I could see any number of scenarios possible.

The one thing I feel confident on is Maura did not encounter foul play.

Do you know of any 120 pound lady who can down $80 worth of pizza in one sitting? This may come as a surprise to you, but stealing somebody's credit card number and running up charges on it is a criminal act. It's theft, identity theft and fraud. They are serious charges. Not to mention the drunk driving that endangered the lives of everyone she crossed path with those nights.

In case you still don't believe me (which you almost assuredly won't) you can read about it yourself. 6 charges made to 3 different businesses. You can also read about how she lied her ass off when confronted about the theft by the police officers.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7_atAFvowRhcy1kTnEzbXRCUDg/view?pli=1

The theft of the cosmetics isn't some vague comment coming from an anonymous person with a grudge against Maura, it came directly from one of her friends, said friend also believes Maura has started a new life somewhere, and said she was told by the Murrays to not say negative things about Maura publically. If you'd like to read that for yourself, here is the link:
http://mauramurray.blogspot.com/2014/02/revelations-of-west-point.html

A bit compulsive? We know she stole things from other people on at least 7 occasions, and had planned on more. The only reason she stopped was because she was caught.

You seem to be a rather hardcore defender of Maura and the unlikely notion that she ran into foul play at the hands of a bogeyman. May I ask you what compels you to feel this way? Please be as specific as possible.

She used someone's card and charged less than $100 fraudulently. So that makes her a horrible, diabolical girl who's life is spiraling out of control? Yeah, it's a crappy thing to do. She deserved punishment, without a doubt. But I just fail to see how a petty, easily discovered theft puts her in some category of a monster with no chance of redemption?

Maybe I'm far too forgiving, but when I was 21 the truly bad people I knew when I was younger were busy slinging drugs, committing armed robberies or leaving people for dead while their buddy OD's alone in some alley.

I can't say Maura was a perfect person by a long shot, but her record was pretty mild, especially by Massachusetts standards. Kids make mistakes. Maybe a pattern was starting, but then again maybe the run in with police squashed it. Then again, maybe all her problems where a result of a problem with alcohol. Again, I can't fault her for that. But there's always hope for problems like that.

As far as my thoughts on foul play. Show me one person who disappeared by their own accord, successfully for many years...and I'll give you 100 examples of ones who disappeared and were found murdered. The odds are highly against it, especially when were dealing with a drunken 21 year old who doesn't seem to have the best critical thinking skills. In fact, it even borders on tinfoil hat fan fiction.

Fred Murray, John Scarinza, heck even Jeff Strelzin and pretty much any NH LE who have commented publicly on this have all acknowledged a strong possibility of homicide here.

She used someone's card and charged less than $100 fraudulently. So that makes her a horrible, diabolical girl who's life is spiraling out of control? Yeah, it's a crappy thing to do. She deserved punishment, without a doubt. But I just fail to see how a petty, easily discovered theft puts her in some category of a monster with no chance of redemption?

Maybe I'm far too forgiving, but when I was 21 the truly bad people I knew when I was younger were busy slinging drugs, committing armed robberies or leaving people for dead while their buddy OD's alone in some alley.

I can't say Maura was a perfect person by a long shot, but her record was pretty mild, especially by Massachusetts standards.

What do you mean by Massachusetts standards? Like I said, the issue here isn't the total amount, it's the number of offenses, knowing that she would have continued to steal had she not been caught, and her not giving a damn about what she was putting the cardholder through. The victim in this case could have been a starving college student already on a fixed income. But Maura didn't care a whit about that and continued running up charges without a care in the world.

But even more troubling than that is we now know she not only drove drunk, she drunk while she drove, which is pretty damn serious. And considering she could have very nearly ended somebody's life, all of this makes me think she simply did not care about people. Her behavior was abnormal and she absolutely was spiraling out of control.

Kids make mistakes.

She was a 21 year old woman. She wasn't a kid.

Then again, maybe all her problems where a result of a problem with alcohol. Again, I can't fault her for that.

I can.

As far as my thoughts on foul play. Show me one person who disappeared by their own accord, successfully for many years...and I'll give you 100 examples of ones who disappeared and were found murdered. The odds are highly against it, especially when were dealing with a drunken 21 year old who doesn't seem to have the best critical thinking skills. In fact, it even borders on tinfoil hat fan fiction.

But Maura was, by all accounts, a very intelligent person. This may very well be that "one case." I also think you need to look at the odds from a different point of view:

What are the odds of some random lunatic running around:

1) in a rural area, in a town with a population of less than 5,000
2) in a sparsely populated, low-crime state, tucked away in a corner of the country.
3) in the relatively low-crime New England section of the country.
4) and found Maura (in the dark) at the right exact moment.
5) and was able to avoid leaving any signs of a struggle.
6) and able to avoid detection for over a decade and presumably not commit any similar crimes, before or since.

When you factor all of that in, coupled with the extensive criminal history of the entire Murray family, the vast amount of lies they and her friends spewed and their high amount of evasiveness, and the probability that this is a hoax is very high. Certainly not "tin foil hat fiction".

Fred Murray, John Scarinza, heck even Jeff Strelzin and pretty much any NH LE who have commented publicly on this have all acknowledged a strong possibility of homicide here.

Fred Murray's opinion means zilch to me. I don't know of the 2 people you mention. From the Charley Project page: "The police do not suspect foul play in Maura's disappearance."

And of course you have that idiot Fred Murray out there desperately trying to link Maura's disappearance to that of Brianna Maitland, another pretty young woman. Thankfully the police don't believe such garbage.

This is from Renner's blog. Does this sound like the work of a family concerned for Maura's safety? Absolutely not!

"When the TV cameras were there, Fred made sure he was actively searching for Maura. But, according to those who stayed at the hotel with him, during the months after Maura disappeared, it was mostly show. He would wake up, go for a jog, get breakfast, then give assignments to searchers. They would regroup for an early dinner and beers and then settle in for the night. Unless the reporters were there. Then Fred would get out in center and actively look through the woods.

Until he sued the state of New Hampshire, Fred was uninterested in searching Maura's personal computer -- he removed it from Maura's dorm and put it in the back of Tim Carpenter's truck. It sat in his closet until police collected it -- and then Fred wanted it back.

Maura's mother was never involved in the search for her daughter. Her sister Julie appears to have dropped by once in the months after Maura vanished. Her other sister, Kathleen, told reporters she thought Maura's breakdown a few days before her disappearance was so that she could just get out of work. Her brother, Kurt, wrote a song he posted on his Facebook page about Maura, asking her what the family did to her to make her run away."

Out of curiosity, what makes foul play more likely than dying of the elements in this case?

Out of curiosity, what makes foul play more likely than dying of the elements in this case?

Dying in the elements, presumably to evade police after a DUI (suicide is another story) would simply defy all logic and common sense. We're talking about a February evening in NH. The snowbanks on the side of the roads are several feet, the ground is frozen solid, as well as bodies of water, it's dark, wet and cold. There's no indication she had anything in the car to prepare for such a thing. At the very minimum, you'd want several layers of clothes, wool socks, boots and a flashlight. Otherwise, you'd be blinding walking in the dark and not knowing what lies under the snow you're about to step on. Doing that with cotton socks and tennis shoes, well your feet would be numb, wet icicles after about 30 minutes.

But the main thing is, what would be the purpose of doing this? To evade police she could probably walk 100 feet away from the road in the woods and lay low for an hour without being seen. There is no benefit for her to enter the woods, but there is a ton of risk.

Most importantly, when they searched by helicopter they found no tracks suggesting she went from the accident sight into the woods. I'm sure LE entertained the idea she walked the road and may have went in further down as well...but there was nothing. This was using infrared, too. There was no new snow either so everything was basically untouched. It just seems very much like the police and fish & game search yielded nothing in terms of finding any sort of travel in the snow in the area.

Now, as far as foul play, people say what are chances of running into a predator? Let's keep in mind here...she went missing. She's been gone for over a decade. Something happened. To me, that greatly increases the notion of murder from 1 in a million to something much more likely. It's hard to dismiss considering the sheer amount of scenarios that have ended that way.

Sure, she could have run away. Pretty much everything is plausible. But is running away probable? Not in my mind, under these circumstances. To conclude that 1) Fred Murray is acting suspicious 2) We've found no trace of Maura 3) Her life was a troubled mess = she undoubtedly ran away is quite a stretch. Sorry, but I ain't drinking the Kool Aid with that one.

She may have been smart, but not that smart. She got caught stealing and likely drove drunk at times. To think she magically straightened up, stayed out of trouble and dropped off the radar is probably only more plausible than say, alien abduction.

By chance if Maura is found, it certainly won't be by someone like Renner and she certainly won't be living.

According to the latest podcast, which had access to Maura's cell phone records, during her shift working the security desk at the dorm, this was the timeline the night of the Petrit Vasi hit and run...

*10:10 p.m. - 10:38 p.m. (Maura speaks to her sister Kathleen on her phone.)

*12:07 a.m. - 12:14 a.m. (Maura calls her boyfriend Billy and speaks with him for 7 minutes.)

*12:20 a.m. (Police arrive to find Petrit Vasi unconscious at the intersection of Triangle and Mattoon Streets in Amherst, one mile from Maura's dorm.

*1:00 a.m. (Maura has her breakdown at work and can only say, "My sister, my sister"...and is then escorted back to her dorm by her supervisor. Her shift would have ended at 1:45.)

The problem we have here is we don't know when exactly Petrit was struck by the car. We know police arrived at 12:20 a.m. but we have no idea how long he was lying in the street beforehand. It also doesn't help matters that Petrit was pretty drunk himself when he was struck. He doesn't even remember leaving his friend's house that night. So it's hard to fit an exact time frame where Maura could have snuck away from her shift and hit Vasi.

It's also worth noting that Maura's supervisor, Karen Mayotte, was asked if she thought it was possible that Maura might have struck Petrit Vasi, she said no. This was her exact quote...

"I do not think that she left her shift and was involved at the hit and run accident, for a number of reasons. First of all, the parking lot takes about five minutes to get to your car, and by the time you drove to Amherst Center, had the hit and run, drive back and walk back to the dorm for your shift...she would have gotten caught leaving her post. Her ID card to get into the dorm at that point would be deactivated, as she should already be in there working, thus she'd be stuck outside waiting for someone to open the door, then sneak in to sit back at the desk. And her stuff was sprawled on the desk...nursing book, cell phone, and I don't see her sneaking away, and then taking her book out again. The supervisors are always rotating around Southwest to check up on the receptionists. Thus the odds of her being able to go get the car, do the drive, get back to the dorm...nope, don't see it happening. As I tell my first graders when learning about probability....very highly unlikely."

I guess it should also be noted that there were several hit and run accidents on the UMass campus during that academic year.

Dying in the elements, presumably to evade police after a DUI (suicide is another story) would simply defy all logic and common sense. We're talking about a February evening in NH. The snowbanks on the side of the roads are several feet, the ground is frozen solid, as well as bodies of water, it's dark, wet and cold. There's no indication she had anything in the car to prepare for such a thing. At the very minimum, you'd want several layers of clothes, wool socks, boots and a flashlight. Otherwise, you'd be blinding walking in the dark and not knowing what lies under the snow you're about to step on. Doing that with cotton socks and tennis shoes, well your feet would be numb, wet icicles after about 30 minutes.

But the main thing is, what would be the purpose of doing this? To evade police she could probably walk 100 feet away from the road in the woods and lay low for an hour without being seen. There is no benefit for her to enter the woods, but there is a ton of risk.

Most importantly, when they searched by helicopter they found no tracks suggesting she went from the accident sight into the woods. I'm sure LE entertained the idea she walked the road and may have went in further down as well...but there was nothing. This was using infrared, too. There was no new snow either so everything was basically untouched. It just seems very much like the police and fish & game search yielded nothing in terms of finding any sort of travel in the snow in the area.

But there were no signs of a struggle either. No second set of footprints. No blood. No dropped personal items scattered about. No tire tracks where Maura's footprints ended. Nothing.

Sure, she could have run away. Pretty much everything is plausible. But is running away probable? Not in my mind, under these circumstances. To conclude that 1) Fred Murray is acting suspicious 2) We've found no trace of Maura 3) Her life was a troubled mess = she undoubtedly ran away is quite a stretch. Sorry, but I ain't drinking the Kool Aid with that one.

She may have been smart, but not that smart. She got caught stealing and likely drove drunk at times. To think she magically straightened up, stayed out of trouble and dropped off the radar is probably only more plausible than say, alien abduction.

The idea that some random bogeyman was out in a super low-crime, desolated area at the precise moment and left absolutely no evidence is tin foil hat fiction.

By chance if Maura is found, it certainly won't be by someone like Renner and she certainly won't be living.

So you know that for a fact huh? At least Renner is attempting to solve this case, which is a lot more than I can say for Fred Murray, who uses every opportunity to stop people investigating, lie his ass off and get others with knowledge to do the same, evade police and cover up anything that tarnishes the perfect, princess image of Maura he wants everyone to have.

According to the latest podcast, which had access to Maura's cell phone records, during her shift working the security desk at the dorm, this was the timeline the night of the Petrit Vasi hit and run...

*10:10 p.m. - 10:38 p.m. (Maura speaks to her sister Kathleen on her phone.)

*12:07 a.m. - 12:14 a.m. (Maura calls her boyfriend Billy and speaks with him for 7 minutes.)

*12:20 a.m. (Police arrive to find Petrit Vasi unconscious at the intersection of Triangle and Mattoon Streets in Amherst, one mile from Maura's dorm.

*1:00 a.m. (Maura has her breakdown at work and can only say, "My sister, my sister"...and is then escorted back to her dorm by her supervisor. Her shift would have ended at 1:45.)

The problem we have here is we don't know when exactly Petrit was struck by the car. We know police arrived at 12:20 a.m. but we have no idea how long he was lying in the street beforehand. It also doesn't help matters that Petrit was pretty drunk himself when he was struck. He doesn't even remember leaving his friend's house that night. So it's hard to fit an exact time frame where Maura could have snuck away from her shift and hit Vasi.

It's also worth noting that Maura's supervisor, Karen Mayotte, was asked if she thought it was possible that Maura might have struck Petrit Vasi, she said no. This was her exact quote...

"I do not think that she left her shift and was involved at the hit and run accident, for a number of reasons. First of all, the parking lot takes about five minutes to get to your car, and by the time you drove to Amherst Center, had the hit and run, drive back and walk back to the dorm for your shift...she would have gotten caught leaving her post. Her ID card to get into the dorm at that point would be deactivated, as she should already be in there working, thus she'd be stuck outside waiting for someone to open the door, then sneak in to sit back at the desk. And her stuff was sprawled on the desk...nursing book, cell phone, and I don't see her sneaking away, and then taking her book out again. The supervisors are always rotating around Southwest to check up on the receptionists. Thus the odds of her being able to go get the car, do the drive, get back to the dorm...nope, don't see it happening. As I tell my first graders when learning about probability....very highly unlikely."

I guess it should also be noted that there were several hit and run accidents on the UMass campus during that academic year.

The main thing I take away from that is Maura kept making/taking personal phone calls at work, which was not allowed. She also let two people in without ID's, which was against protocol and she was sent home early for the day by her supervisor.

It's also important to note her sister claims their conversation was mundane, which was apparently not the case, so another instance of a family member lying.

Why can't anybody in the Murray family ever tell the truth on anything?

ALL of Fred's search "efforts" have been concentrated on the same exact, small section of Haverhill. He travels there every week. Of course, Maura could be anywhere in New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Vermont, New England or Canada, not to mention anywhere in the country, but Fred keeps checking that same exact spot that many people have already gone over numerous, numerous times (including Fred himself).

What I really think is that Maura is somewhere in that general area, Fred visits her every week, then pops by the area in Haverhill to give people the impression he is searching for her. This, as well as his other lame attempts don't fool me a bit.

I agree with those who say that the most likely outcome was that after the wreck, Maura wandered around and eventually died of exposure. Because it can be damn near impossible to find someone who has gone missing out in the woods and she was drunk, possibly disoriented from the crash. I just don't see her or her family as being capable of pulling off so massive a ruse, really.

I agree with those who say that the most likely outcome was that after the wreck, Maura wandered around and eventually died of exposure. Because it can be damn near impossible to find someone who has gone missing out in the woods and she was drunk, possibly disoriented from the crash. I just don't see her or her family as being capable of pulling off so massive a ruse, really.

The problem with that is that if Maura were hurt, her best bet would have been to stay in the car and wait for help, because moving around while injured would be incredibly dumb. That's not to say she wouldn't do that if she were disoriented, (because there have been instances of people wandering off while hurt when they should have stayed while they are and not having the mental faculties at the time to realize the mistake they were making). But here's the thing: Maura *LOCKED* her car. I really can't believe she was so disoriented that she left her car and wandered around until perishing, but having the presence of mind to lock her vehicle. That makes no sense.

May I ask why do you feel Maura's family is incapable of concocting this ruse? Considering that nearly all of them have engaged in heavy duty lying, cover up, sabotaging efforts to find her, and all the criminal activities they've engaged in, I feel that they are absolutely capable of this.

The problem with that is that if Maura were hurt, her best bet would have been to stay in the car and wait for help, because moving around while injured would be incredibly dumb. That's not to say she wouldn't do that if she were disoriented, (because there have been instances of people wandering off while hurt when they should have stayed while they are and not having the mental faculties at the time to realize the mistake they were making). But here's the thing: Maura *LOCKED* her car. I really can't believe she was so disoriented that she left her car and wandered around until perishing, but having the presence of mind to lock her vehicle. That makes no sense.

May I ask why do you feel Maura's family is incapable of concocting this ruse? Considering that nearly all of them have engaged in heavy duty lying, cover up, sabotaging efforts to find her, and all the criminal activities they've engaged in, I feel that they are absolutely capable of this.


Wow, I have spent the afternoon reading all of this. My questions is: If her family is that sketchy, why help or hide her? What do they have to gain? Her dad gains attention that he seeks, apparently, but really why?

The problem with that is that if Maura were hurt, her best bet would have been to stay in the car and wait for help, because moving around while injured would be incredibly dumb. That's not to say she wouldn't do that if she were disoriented, (because there have been instances of people wandering off while hurt when they should have stayed while they are and not having the mental faculties at the time to realize the mistake they were making). But here's the thing: Maura *LOCKED* her car. I really can't believe she was so disoriented that she left her car and wandered around until perishing, but having the presence of mind to lock her vehicle. That makes no sense.

May I ask why do you feel Maura's family is incapable of concocting this ruse? Considering that nearly all of them have engaged in heavy duty lying, cover up, sabotaging efforts to find her, and all the criminal activities they've engaged in, I feel that they are absolutely capable of this.

If Maura were drunk, I don't think she would have stayed in the car. I think she would have panicked and tried to flee the scene. Same explanation for a head injury, if she had one.

I understand your comments about the locked car, but if she were trying to "stage" a scene of foul play, wouldn't she have made a concerted effort to make the scene look that way? As in, she would have left the door wide open or thrown some stuff around to make it look like a struggle occurred?

To me, the locked door means one of two things:
1) She didn't think about it and locked it out of force of habit. (I do it all the time. My AAA membership is worth every penny.)
2) She left to go find help and got lost in the woods, where she ultimately died.

Or, in line with some other threads, 3) An "entity" got her. She had blond hair and blue eyes, too! There must be a connection! I think i just cracked the case, y'all! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

That's true. She could have locked her car out of habit. Heck, I'm fairly certain those key fob deals were around at the time, so it's not like locking your car required a lot of thought/fine muscle control.

But like I said, while Fred Murray is a horrible person, I don't really see what he or Maura has to gain by such an insanely elaborate ruse. Because faking your death/going on the run...it's not as easy as so many shows/movies make it out to be. You can never make contact with friends/family, you can't work any decent-paying job (because those require proof of identity like a license or a social security number), and well, there's a reason people say money makes the world go round. You kind of have to have it if you're going to get the basic staples of life--food, shelter, and all that--so either Maura is insanely knowledgeable about the Black Market (despite her Middle-Class Suburban Upbringing) or apparently Fred is insanely good at moving around the massive amounts of money needed to sustain her, without attracting any attention from police whatsoever. Fred's a creep but a criminal mastermind? That I have a difficult time believing.

But like I said, while Fred Murray is a horrible person, I don't really see what he or Maura has to gain by such an insanely elaborate ruse. Because faking your death/going on the run...it's not as easy as so many shows/movies make it out to be.

I wouldn't say Fred is a terrible person. Stubborn? Sure. A pain in the ass? Probably. We all grieve differently and he seemingly wants his daughter found. Is he perhaps withholding details that might have been beneficial to the investigation, out of fear of hurting Maura's image? Maybe.

I certainly don't see Maura having the knowledge or resources to pull this off, with or without Fred's help. In the end, you just can't help but ask why. Are people still clinging to the idea she hit Vasi? I just don't see her life being that troubled that she would run away...over credit card fraud?

Look at someone like Whitey Bulger. He had reason to run. But even a career criminal with mob connections and tons of money...still got caught.

How about someone like Michelle Mcmullen? Similar situation as Maura. She was facing some minor charges, probably could have took a plea as a first offense with no jail and a slap on the wrist. Her car was found abandoned in Maryland and no one had a slightest clue what happened.

Turns out she just parked and walked way, started a new life with virtually nothing. She was spotted a couple times and her time on the lam was only a few years before her cover was blown and she was caught, despite being all over the county.

Not easy at all.

If Maura were drunk, I don't think she would have stayed in the car.

I'm willing to bet she was, considering she had an open container of alcohol (mixed with Coke) in the car.

I think she would have panicked and tried to flee the scene. Same explanation for a head injury, if she had one.

FWIW, the driver that tried to help her said she didn't appear to be injured.

I understand your comments about the locked car, but if she were trying to "stage" a scene of foul play, wouldn't she have made a concerted effort to make the scene look that way? As in, she would have left the door wide open or thrown some stuff around to make it look like a struggle occurred?

I don't recall suggesting she staged a scene of foul play.

To me, the locked door means one of two things:
1) She didn't think about it and locked it out of force of habit. (I do it all the time. My AAA membership is worth every penny.)
2) She left to go find help and got lost in the woods, where she ultimately died.

What confuses me is that she told the driver that help was on its way. Why would she leave an area in which several people could have helped her, in order to slog through the snow in an area in which she was unfamiliar with to find help when she could have got it if she just stayed put. The police believe she was picked up by a friend or relative or acquaintance and was driven away from the site.

Or, in line with some other threads, 3) An "entity" got her. She had blond hair and blue eyes, too! There must be a connection! I think i just cracked the case, y'all! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

It looks brown to me.

That's true. She could have locked her car out of habit. Heck, I'm fairly certain those key fob deals were around at the time, so it's not like locking your car required a lot of thought/fine muscle control.

But like I said, while Fred Murray is a horrible person, I don't really see what he or Maura has to gain by such an insanely elaborate ruse. Because faking your death/going on the run...it's not as easy as so many shows/movies make it out to be. You can never make contact with friends/family, you can't work any decent-paying job (because those require proof of identity like a license or a social security number), and well, there's a reason people say money makes the world go round. You kind of have to have it if you're going to get the basic staples of life--food, shelter, and all that--so either Maura is insanely knowledgeable about the Black Market (despite her Middle-Class Suburban Upbringing) or apparently Fred is insanely good at moving around the massive amounts of money needed to sustain her, without attracting any attention from police whatsoever. Fred's a creep but a criminal mastermind? That I have a difficult time believing.

But UM has profiled many cases of criminals who have ran off and lived fine elsewhere. John Mooney for example. They don't keep the same identity though, as that would be rather foolish.

I agree about your point about people needing the basics to survive, but there are a lot of people on here that think Adam Hecht threw away a life of luxury in order to live life as a homeless bum.

I find his weekly visits to Haverhill suspicious. He's never found anything there and Maura could be anywhere, so why keep going back there? I think it's really a beard so that he can pay Maura a weekly visit (wherever she is staying).

I wouldn't say Fred is a terrible person.

I would.

We all grieve differently and he seemingly wants his daughter found.

Then why doesn't he make a greater effort to find her other than looking in the same place all the time? Why did he evade police for years? Why did he lie? Why is he trying to sabotage a book and a message board dedicated to finding her? Are all those the efforts of someone genuinely trying to find her?

Is he perhaps withholding details that might have been beneficial to the investigation, out of fear of hurting Maura's image?

Yes. He should care more about finding her than what her image is.

I certainly don't see Maura having the knowledge or resources to pull this off, with or without Fred's help. In the end, you just can't help but ask why. Are people still clinging to the idea she hit Vasi? I just don't see her life being that troubled that she would run away...over credit card fraud?

Look at someone like Whitey Bulger. He had reason to run. But even a career criminal with mob connections and tons of money...still got caught.

How about someone like Michelle Mcmullen? Similar situation as Maura. She was facing some minor charges, probably could have took a plea as a first offense with no jail and a slap on the wrist. Her car was found abandoned in Maryland and no one had a slightest clue what happened.

Turns out she just parked and walked way, started a new life with virtually nothing. She was spotted a couple times and her time on the lam was only a few years before her cover was blown and she was caught, despite being all over the county.

Not easy at all.

With all due respect, I think some people on here are missing the point. It's not that the credit card issue, or anything else, was the biggest problem in the history of the world. The issue here is that Maura (through her own fault) had lost a lot in a short period of time. She was kicked out of West Point, she could have been in danger of being kicked out of the nursing program, or UMASS altogether, she likely would have gotten in trouble with her father over wrecking his car, she lost her own car, and she had an arrest record due to the fraud. For somebody that was very intelligent and may have had high expectations from people, she made a lot of stupid mistakes. It's not that any one of them in particular was the end of the world, it was probably the totality of them.

Looks like James Renner's confidence of Maura being alive and well has dropped from 90% to about 50% according to his new "bombshell news" he found out about.

It's funny how once he shifts opinions suddenly all his blog's comments go from how slimy Fred is to general sympathy to the family.

My money's still on her being deceased...

Looks like James Renner's confidence of Maura being alive and well has dropped from 90% to about 50% according to his new "bombshell news" he found out about.

It's funny how once he shifts opinions suddenly all his blog's comments go from how slimy Fred is to general sympathy to the family.

My money's still on her being deceased...

It's difficult to make heads or tails of that since he hasn't yet divulged what information he has found out. In any event, he shouldn't tease his followers like that, with lines like "new information about this case may be posted on Friday. But it might not happen until next week." He shouldn't leave his followers hanging on a cliff like that.

The comments I read mostly seemed to indicate that people believe the new info will imply her boyfriend killed her, but that seems incredibly unlikely since he was residing in Oklahoma at the time. I don't know how he could travel from OK to NH, whack her, and travel back. Surely the police would have had some indication of that from the beginning.

Being that it appears Billy was unfaithful and Maura seemed to know, I wouldn't be surprised if it is being implied that she had a tryst of her own and information about this mystery guy is surfacing.

It may or may not be a romantic thing but to me it seems like this is a new person who probably hasn't been mentioned before.

Whether we do in fact have any new leads, I don't know. Certainly any thing new to us could have been checked by LE years ago.

Now he's saying he won't release the information and may never release it.

Huge letdown.

It can't be understated how low crime New Hampshire is.

For 2004, there were 17 reported murders in the entire state for the entire year! Heck, there are cities in the U.S. that have that much in a week!

he was also a lieutenant in the Army. He could not just go-- he'd need to schedule leave, etc. Plus after she disappeared he'd have got emergency leave which would have been hard to do if he were already on leave.

It can't be understated how low crime New Hampshire is.

For 2004, there were 17 reported murders in the entire state for the entire year! Heck, there are cities in the U.S. that have that much in a week!

the town I live in, a distant suburb of KC, has had like 4-5 murders in ten years, almost all related to KC gang activities or drugs with one or two crimes of passion... all are solved. But there is a big unsolved from about 15 years ago where a man and woman from Texas were found killed wrapped in a rug along a dirt road on the outskirts of town. Their car was found in an apartment building parking lot. No one seems to have known they were even here (except the killer).

it seems to be about the tail pipe rag. I always thought someone Maura met while getting gas stuck it in there to slow her down and that he then came upon her and she accepted the ride because he was not a true stranger and she was drunk. (There is one person I think in particular may have done it who lived within sight of the accident and didn't cooperate with LE except to come up with a Maura sighting a month later (but on the day of the crash) that incidentally gave him an alibi...

it seems to be about the tail pipe rag. I always thought someone Maura met while getting gas stuck it in there to slow her down and that he then came upon her and she accepted the ride because he was not a true stranger and she was drunk. (There is one person I think in particular may have done it who lived within sight of the accident and didn't cooperate with LE except to come up with a Maura sighting a month later (but on the day of the crash) that incidentally gave him an alibi...

I guess I don't understand what you're getting at. She was driving fast enough to have totaled her car, so it doesn't seem a random perp stuck the rag in the tail pipe to slow her down. He would have also needed her car to have completely stopped in order to have done something to her and he would have had no way of knowing she was going to wreck her car.

the town I live in, a distant suburb of KC, has had like 4-5 murders in ten years, almost all related to KC gang activities or drugs with one or two crimes of passion... all are solved. But there is a big unsolved from about 15 years ago where a man and woman from Texas were found killed wrapped in a rug along a dirt road on the outskirts of town. Their car was found in an apartment building parking lot. No one seems to have known they were even here (except the killer).

And this relates to this case how?

Well, ugh. After recently teasing us with a "major break in the case" and then promptly telling us there is "no new info", Renner is now taking a long break from his blog and won't be back until next spring. He claims it is because he is "supporting his book", but you really have to wonder if it is out of sheer embarrassment.

He also claims that "all" of your questions will be answered in his new book, which he is hawking the beejeezus out of, and I won't dignify it by repeating the details about it here. This sort of hints that he does know what happened in regards to Maura Murray, but my bet is that it's probably just a ploy to sell books.

I've also noticed he has taken down the posts where he said there was no new info, not to mention his failure to apologize to his followers for that debacle.

So... Renner now does NOT think Maura is alive?

....damn it! I really want to know more!

So... Renner now does NOT think Maura is alive?

....damn it! I really want to know more!

Renner is just leading people on at this point in order to sell more books.

His blog is really all over the place as he's seems rather confused as to whether he believes Maura was the victim of a horrible crime or whether she staged her disappearance with the help of her family. Exacerbating those issues is that he seems more interested in the sensationalistic details of the case rather than any sympathy for somebody he views as a possible victim. Heck, the subtitle of his book is "How I Lost Myself In The Mysterious Disappearance Of Maura Murray.", as if he finds her disappearance so baffling that it outweighs everything else in his life. puke:

[QUOTE=wiseguy182]I guess I don't understand what you're getting at. She was driving fast enough to have totaled her car, so it doesn't seem a random perp stuck the rag in the tail pipe to slow her down. He would have also needed her car to have completely stopped in order to have done something to her and he would have had no way of knowing she was going to wreck her car.

The common belief is that a rag in the tailpipe will cause the car to stall out which would cause her to stop in the road where a person following from a distance can come and appear to be a rescuer. Her car was damaged and may have technically been totalled (as fixing it may have cost more than the car was worth) but it does not fit my definition of a "wreck." The tail pipe person could not have anticipated her not negotiating the curve (whether caused by the rag or by her poor driving skills) but if anything that would have been a bonus to him.

The common belief is that a rag in the tailpipe will cause the car to stall out which would cause her to stop in the road where a person following from a distance can come and appear to be a rescuer. Her car was damaged and may have technically been totalled (as fixing it may have cost more than the car was worth) but it does not fit my definition of a "wreck." The tail pipe person could not have anticipated her not negotiating the curve (whether caused by the rag or by her poor driving skills) but if anything that would have been a bonus to him.

But if she were being followed, it seems like she would have noticed that, and subsequently she would be suspicious of this person, and in turn wouldn't have turned down offers from people who could have legitimately helped her in order to entrust her life with some random guy whom she barely knows and is following her in and in area she is not all that familiar with?

Why would she go with him voluntarily when she had already summoned help, according to her?

It's also telling that she evaded the police. She was drunk and didn't want to be associated with the fallout from that. If she wrecked her vehicle because of snowy road conditions, then she could blame it on that and would have no reason to bolt, but she was drunk, she knew it, and she escaped to live the high life somewhere else.

I'm just sorry the Murrays have so many people fooled on this. They're probably having a laugh about it right now over cocktails.

I remain baffled by your insistence on an elaborate conspiracy theory regarding the Murrays, Wiseguy. While Fred Murray is a creep and a sleazoid, I just can't see how he financially benefits from having his college-age daughter disappear and pay her to stay disappeared. What's his angle? I suppose maybe he could want her to keep a low profile so as to avoid embarrassing the family further, but why not just kill her? Make it even more difficult for her to blow family secrets or whatever.

Because I'm sorry but I'm just not seeing how having a missing child is a surefire path to riches and fame. Fred's a creep, but I keep thinking if he was secretly withdrawing large sums of cash to pay off a wayward daughter to stay hidden, somebody would have noticed a money trail by now.

My theory remains that Maura was drunk, stumbled away from the vehicle, and died out in the woods somewhere from exposure, because all the people who stopped to help her, testified to her being drunk. Obviously, if she was drunk that would wreck havoc with her common sense/judgement. I don't see why you find it so hard to believe that she died of exposure and weather conditions/wild animals/inevitable process of decay are why we haven't found anything.

I remain baffled by your insistence on an elaborate conspiracy theory regarding the Murrays, Wiseguy.

I have yet to be proven wrong though. My theory is just as good as anyone else's.

While Fred Murray is a creep and a sleazoid, I just can't see how he financially benefits from having his college-age daughter disappear and pay her to stay disappeared. What's his angle?

Media coverage, mainly, which Fred Murray basks in.

I suppose maybe he could want her to keep a low profile so as to avoid embarrassing the family further, but why not just kill her? Make it even more difficult for her to blow family secrets or whatever.

Even I have my doubts Fred would go as far as to kill her, though I don't rule it out completely.

Because I'm sorry but I'm just not seeing how having a missing child is a surefire path to riches and fame. Fred's a creep, but I keep thinking if he was secretly withdrawing large sums of cash to pay off a wayward daughter to stay hidden, somebody would have noticed a money trail by now.

But he did withdraw thousands of dollars just before Maura's disappearance, therefore it's not a huge stretch to think he could still be doing so. I don't know that the authorities are keeping an eye on his finances 24/7. Maura also has numerous siblings (at least 4), and other relatives, so Fred could be arranging something that way, if Maura does in fact continue to need money to survive.

My theory remains that Maura was drunk, stumbled away from the vehicle, and died out in the woods somewhere from exposure, because all the people who stopped to help her, testified to her being drunk. Obviously, if she was drunk that would wreck havoc with her common sense/judgement. I don't see why you find it so hard to believe that she died of exposure and weather conditions/wild animals/inevitable process of decay are why we haven't found anything.

Because there were no footprints whatsoever that led away from the scene. Considering she was drunk, had another accident a few days previous that also may have been caused by alcohol, and that she evaded police and attempts from various people who could have legitimately helped her, that all screams that she left the area on her own free will and got a ride from a friend or relative because she didn't want to deal with the mistakes that she made.

It can't be understated how low crime New Hampshire is.

For 2004, there were 17 reported murders in the entire state for the entire year! Heck, there are cities in the U.S. that have that much in a week!


I lived there for nearly 25 years, its is in fact a really excellent place to live, and quite safe to boot. However, while it is a very safe area, horrific crimes and brutal murders still occur.

We're moving towards 12 years since Maura disappeared. I've said it before, but once again: She's gone. There's no trace. Something clearly happened here. We can't necessarily look at this under the scope of "____ scenario happened because everything else is unlikely" We're dealing with a missing person gone for over a decade with no trace, no credible sightings...nothing. So perhaps then an occurrence that might be 1 in 800,000 odds is suddenly in the realm of reality.

I certainly never bought the idea she ran away and started a new life, but never would I consider it impossible.

There's no definite time frame on when you typically find a body in the woods, when a killer is caught, when someone in hiding has their cover blown...but as time passes, the outlook surely doesn't get any better. When a person is gone for this long, all bets are off and I can't say there seems to be much optimism at this point.

I lived there for nearly 25 years, its is in fact a really excellent place to live, and quite safe to boot. However, while it is a very safe area, horrific crimes and brutal murders still occur.

We're moving towards 12 years since Maura disappeared. I've said it before, but once again: She's gone. There's no trace. Something clearly happened here. We can't necessarily look at this under the scope of "____ scenario happened because everything else is unlikely" We're dealing with a missing person gone for over a decade with no trace, no credible sightings...nothing. So perhaps then an occurrence that might be 1 in 800,000 odds is suddenly in the realm of reality.

I certainly never bought the idea she ran away and started a new life, but never would I consider it impossible.

There's no definite time frame on when you typically find a body in the woods, when a killer is caught, when someone in hiding has their cover blown...but as time passes, the outlook surely doesn't get any better. When a person is gone for this long, all bets are off and I can't say there seems to be much optimism at this point.

In most cases when someone is gone this long, the outcome is usually that the person is no longer alive. You are right about that. The problem is that this is not your typical case. The big sticking points for me are this:

1) Maura is a known liar.
2) Maura is a known criminal.

So when you take into account that she is a pathological liar, it is NOT a huge stretch to think she has led people on the last 11 years and is living elsewhere. And when you take into account that she is a known criminal who was, for all intents and purposes, drunk when she crashed her Saturn and purposefully evaded the police that night, it is NOT a stretch to think she is still in hiding to avoid punishment for her crimes.

In essence, I am not trying to fault anyone for believing that Maura ran into a random perp because everyone is entitled to their opinion. I do believe, however, that the media's phony portrayal of Maura has led most to the conclusion that the young, "pretty, do-gooder" was a prime target for a rapist/murderer. That is where I have a problem because they have utterly failed to mention Mauray's lying, her stealing, her alcoholism, her horrible driving record, you get the point.

And then you have this from CP: Maura "is described as a quiet, introverted person". So what does that tell us? The tells me that if she is alive and living elsewhere, she is probably not drawing any attention to herself. I don't think she is going out in a huge crowd and hoping to get identified. Rather, I think she is keeping a very low profile (possibly in Canada), and perhaps rarely goes out. And there have been sightings of her.

It also should be noted Maura called her boyfriend the day after her disappearance. They didn't actually speak to each other as her boyfriend only heard breathing on the line, but it's suggestive that Maura did not die that night. We also know that she did take her cell phone with her.

There were no signs of a struggle and no footprints indicating she ran off to the woods. That leaves voluntarily disappearance.

The media sensationalized the BEEJEZUS out of this story to make us think some bogeyman kidnapped the cute, young straight-A student. But I'm a big picture person that looks at everything and not just the few details the media has put out on this case.

firstly would she have noticed being followed? the road only went two ways so it would have been 50 percent that the person at the gas station went the same way... also if the person could point out his very house from the accident scene it would be more likely that she'd go with him. What are the odds that a guy she just met at a gas station who lived right there was a bad guy? Also if she was drinking, her thinking, which was apparently somewhat muddled even normally, would be even more so

It doesn't matter what she told the bus driver, she had NOT already called for help. Maybe in the instance after the bus driver left she figured out she needed a landline to get help and had started to walk towards the bus driver's house when the guy she knew from the gas station (who lived across the street from the bus driver) pulled up.

recent posts at Renner's blog indicate that the rag in the tailpipe was very evident to the first responders. It must have been large and partially hanging out of the tailpipe. Very odd

I remain baffled by your insistence on an elaborate conspiracy theory regarding the Murrays, Wiseguy. While Fred Murray is a creep and a sleazoid, I just can't see how he financially benefits from having his college-age daughter disappear and pay her to stay disappeared. What's his angle? I suppose maybe he could want her to keep a low profile so as to avoid embarrassing the family further, but why not just kill her? Make it even more difficult for her to blow family secrets or whatever.

Because I'm sorry but I'm just not seeing how having a missing child is a surefire path to riches and fame. Fred's a creep, but I keep thinking if he was secretly withdrawing large sums of cash to pay off a wayward daughter to stay hidden, somebody would have noticed a money trail by now.

My theory remains that Maura was drunk, stumbled away from the vehicle, and died out in the woods somewhere from exposure, because all the people who stopped to help her, testified to her being drunk. Obviously, if she was drunk that would wreck havoc with her common sense/judgement. I don't see why you find it so hard to believe that she died of exposure and weather conditions/wild animals/inevitable process of decay are why we haven't found anything.

Fred's actions after the accident do not reflect someone in the know about what happened to Maura. He made a big deal about searching, was all over tv and the news and then later complained about incompetent cops and tried to sue the state to get records. As a minimum if he improbably knew of her escape plans, something had gone wrong with those plans en route. Otherwise his actions would be very crazy if he knew where she was all along.

In most cases when someone is gone this long, the outcome is usually that the person is no longer alive. You are right about that. The problem is that this is not your typical case. The big sticking points for me are this:

1) Maura is a known liar.
2) Maura is a known criminal.

So when you take into account that she is a pathological liar, it is NOT a huge stretch to think she has led people on the last 11 years and is living elsewhere. And when you take into account that she is a known criminal who was, for all intents and purposes, drunk when she crashed her Saturn and purposefully evaded the police that night, it is NOT a stretch to think she is still in hiding to avoid punishment for her crimes.

In essence, I am not trying to fault anyone for believing that Maura ran into a random perp because everyone is entitled to their opinion. I do believe, however, that the media's phony portrayal of Maura has led most to the conclusion that the young, "pretty, do-gooder" was a prime target for a rapist/murderer. That is where I have a problem because they have utterly failed to mention Mauray's lying, her stealing, her alcoholism, her horrible driving record, you get the point.

And then you have this from CP: Maura "is described as a quiet, introverted person". So what does that tell us? The tells me that if she is alive and living elsewhere, she is probably not drawing any attention to herself. I don't think she is going out in a huge crowd and hoping to get identified. Rather, I think she is keeping a very low profile (possibly in Canada), and perhaps rarely goes out. And there have been sightings of her.

It also should be noted Maura called her boyfriend the day after her disappearance. They didn't actually speak to each other as her boyfriend only heard breathing on the line, but it's suggestive that Maura did not die that night. We also know that she did take her cell phone with her.

There were no signs of a struggle and no footprints indicating she ran off to the woods. That leaves voluntarily disappearance.

The media sensationalized the BEEJEZUS out of this story to make us think some bogeyman kidnapped the cute, young straight-A student. But I'm a big picture person that looks at everything and not just the few details the media has put out on this case.

Maura did not seem competent enough to successfully hide. She couldn't even steal a credit card without getting easily caught.

And it has long been proven that the call the boyfriend received the day after was from the Red Cross. BTW Billy's mother got MM's cell phone bills which they were paying.

Plus, Wiseguy, yeah, Maura was a criminal but really it's not like she was the kind of criminal mastermind that Interpol would love to get their hands on; she committed credit card fraud and from what I heard, it's not like she was particularly good at that. I have a difficult time believing that Maura could successfully outfox all the various law enforcements agencies after her. Again, she was a messed-up college student, not a Mafia Godfather.

firstly would she have noticed being followed?

My guess would be yes.

also if the person could point out his very house from the accident scene it would be more likely that she'd go with him.

I think you're making this sound way too easy. So she evades the police, doesn't let any of the known people to happen upon the scene help her, yet she takes a ride from someone she literally just met? And what was the purpose of her going with him? She left the scene of an accident, which is another crime you can throw on to her already long list of crimes.

But yeah, what reason would she have for going with him? She told people help was on its way, so why would she leave that immediate area? If she was injured, she probably shouldn't have moved. She has zero reason for going with this person, if he exists at all.

What are the odds that a guy she just met at a gas station who lived right there was a bad guy?

Exactly.

It doesn't matter what she told the bus driver, she had NOT already called for help.

It absolutely does matter because if what you're saying is true, than that's another lie she told. Putting this politely as possible, do you realize you're completely believing a person that is a known pathological liar?

Maybe in the instance after the bus driver left she figured out she needed a landline to get help and had started to walk towards the bus driver's house when the guy she knew from the gas station (who lived across the street from the bus driver) pulled up.

Why would she do that? She had a working cell phone and would have no reason to walk in the cold, in an unfamiliar place (intoxicated and possibly injured to boot) to some stranger's house and use their landline.

I've also stated this numerous times and it seems to get lost on people. There were no footprints leading from her car to anywhere. If she walked away, then where was the evidence of that?

Fred's actions after the accident do not reflect someone in the know about what happened to Maura. He made a big deal about searching, was all over tv and the news and then later complained about incompetent cops and tried to sue the state to get records. As a minimum if he improbably knew of her escape plans, something had gone wrong with those plans en route. Otherwise his actions would be very crazy if he knew where she was all along.

That's what he wanted people to believe. When the cameras were rolling, yes, Fred liked to give off the impression he was searching for Maura. As soon as they were turned off, he would stop and let everyone else do his work for him. And since Maura could be anywhere, why does Fred continue searching in the same exact place for her?

And it has long been proven that the call the boyfriend received the day after was from the Red Cross. BTW Billy's mother got MM's cell phone bills which they were paying.

"Time unknown - Maura's boyfriend receives a voicemail message that he believes is the sound of Maura sobbing. His cellphone had been turned off so that he could pass through airport security on his way to help search for Maura. A New Hampshire State Police investigation traced the call to a calling card issued to the American Red Cross. Many believe this call was actually from Maura, not the American Red Cross, as it is unknown how the Red Cross would have his mobile number or why they would leave a voicemail with no actual message. The voicemail has since been deleted.
Thursday, February 12, 2004"

http://findmauramurray.fr.yuku.com/topic/2#.Vim0Qk10wrg

recent posts at Renner's blog indicate that the rag in the tailpipe was very evident to the first responders. It must have been large and partially hanging out of the tailpipe. Very odd

The rag came from Maura's own vehicle (specifically, it was in her emergency kit), which ought to dispel the notion proposed by some that a "perp" placed it in there to slow her vehicle.

Her car was damaged and may have technically been totalled (as fixing it may have cost more than the car was worth) but it does not fit my definition of a "wreck."

She caused $8,000 (!!) of damage to her father's car after hitting a guardrail, said car was brand spanking new in February 2004. I don't know what Fred did with it, but he had to rent a car during that time period to drive to work.

The damage she did to her 8 year old Saturn (which she rarely used since it had mechanical problems, which she didn't get fixed) included significant front end damage as well as a cracked driver's side windshield.

I don't know what you're definition of "totaled" and "wrecked" are, but they sound like pretty significant instances of damage to me.

Plus, Wiseguy, yeah, Maura was a criminal but really it's not like she was the kind of criminal mastermind that Interpol would love to get their hands on; she committed credit card fraud and from what I heard, it's not like she was particularly good at that. I have a difficult time believing that Maura could successfully outfox all the various law enforcements agencies after her. Again, she was a messed-up college student, not a Mafia Godfather.

But she was headed down a wrong path. The only reason she stopped running up charges on that lady's credit card was because the police found out. If they hadn't, she would have happily rung up more and more charges until she sent that poor lady to the poorhouse. She was trying to make another charge when she got busted.

She was a 21 year old whose life was self-destructing. She was an alcoholic that caused two accidents (probably both while drinking), and she's a kleptomaniac and a compulsive liar. She got kicked out of West Point and wrecked two cars in three days.

We don't know for certain what happened to Maura after that day, but it's not a stretch to think she's committing more crimes out there and continuing to evade police for her actions. Or if she's not committing crimes, it's only because she doesn't want to draw any attention to herself.

It's also important to note that Fred Murray quickly filed several lawsuits against various law enforcement agencies. The reasons for this are unknown since everything I have read indicates the police did everything in their power to find Maura.

The police also received several complaints of Fred Murray trespassing on their property and LE warned Fred not to do it again or he would be arrested.

It's also interesting to note that Haverhill, New Hampshire is right near the state line bordering Vermont. Maura could have disappeared into a whole other state in literally minutes. Most of the search efforts have been concentrated in New Hampshire. Also of note was that Maura conducted searches of lodging places in Vermont shortly before her disappearance.

>>>I think you're making this sound way too easy. So she evades the police, doesn't let any of the known people to happen upon the scene help her, yet she takes a ride from someone she literally just met? And what was the purpose of her going with him? She left the scene of an accident, which is another crime you can throw on to her already long list of crimes.

But yeah, what reason would she have for going with him? She told people help was on its way, so why would she leave that immediate area? If she was injured, she probably shouldn't have moved. She has zero reason for going with this person, if he exists at all.<<<<

if you ignore the facts of the case, you can come up with any conclusion. She told ONE person that help was on the way, but IN FACT it was NOT. She made no calls no matter what she told the bus driver. Billy's mother gets the bill. The reason to go with the guy was to use a landline to call one of her buddies to come get her. Her state meant she did not want to meet up with the cops until later.


It has long been established that the call to Billy was from the Red Cross. "Many believe" does not change facts. The Red Cross notifies armed forces personnel in emergencies and the notification info is provided by the member and is regularly updated.

In how bad shape could the car have been in if she was able to drive it hundreds of miles without it breaking down? And was willing to do so? I had a bad car once and I only drove it to go to work. If I wanted to drive far I rented a car. She didn't use it much at UMass because everything was in walking distance.

Fred's behavior shows he was not in the know or the part he did know was not what happened.

Did the rag come from Maura's car? Recent comments by Renner seem to indicate it did not. Wherever it came from it was very odd.

>>>What are the odds that a guy she just met at a gas station who lived right there was a bad guy? << >>>Exactly<<<<

You missed the point. Under normal circumstances the odds would be high but if the bad guy set things up, they were much more likely. But MM would not know that. But it makes the random nature a bit less random. What are the odds that there would be a guy who lived within sight of where MM was last seen who had an ex-wife who accused him of the murder??? But it did indeed happen.

The gas station scenario may not apply if the sighting at the grocery store, which has been ignored by Renner and those podcast guys is true. These researchers ignore it either because they do not think it is credible (although it seems credible as it goes back to the early days) or because it ruins their own pet theories. Since the car was full she must have got gas somewhere nearby. The grocery store tale has her buddies going with her in a separate car which makes the scenario a bit less mysterious. Fred apparently heard this early on and may be the reason for his belief in the "random dirtbag" theory-- i.e. MM smashed up her car while in tandem with the buddies who were probably in front of her. When they came back for her they could not find her and never heard from her again. They told Fred but no one else.


Maura committed petty crimes at best (except, maybe, drunk driving) buying a single pizza, etc., indicating she was doing it just to do it, not to make a profit. And she wasn't very good at it. To hide out for years seems beyond her capabilities.

Lastly unless the guy was tailgating her it is doubtful she would have realized she was being followed. Since the bus driver saw no one the follower was not right behind her and did not have to be as he would have known her route either from talking to her or because a car with Mass plates was probably not going to go off the main road. If the rag is part of this scenario, she'd not even make it to his house before stalling out. A stall out while making a sharp turn while sipping wine from a coke can could explain the accident.

if you ignore the facts of the case, you can come up with any conclusion.

LOL!!

She told ONE person that help was on the way, but IN FACT it was NOT. She made no calls no matter what she told the bus driver.

It doesn't matter if she told one person or a hundred, it was a flat out lie. More importantly, she had been given an AAA membership with long distance towing and didn't use it. She could have got help from them, the people in the area, the bus driver and the police and she declined them all. Why? Because she was drunk and didn't want the cops to find out.

Her state meant she did not want to meet up with the cops until later.

Her state was that she was under the influence of alcohol, was guilty of driving while drinking (which is a pretty serious offense) and causing an accident.

I don't know if she had any intention of ever speaking to the cops about it. If she did, she wanted to wait until she figured out a way to downplay her involvement in this or escape punishment altogether.

She had bought a bottle of Kahlua, a bottle of Bailey's, a bottle of vodka (all used to make a White Russian) as well as an entire box of wine, in addition to whatever alcohol was in her Coke bottle (which she tried to get rid of by dumping in the snow, police found evidence of that). The police officer responding to the scene noted red liquid (Coke is not red) in various points of the car. He also noticed a strong alcoholic odor coming from the container. The accident reports lists it as an accident involving alcohol.

I can send you the link to that report if you wish to see it for yourself.

Herlariously, Fred claims that because she had a textbook with her, that it was evidence she was going to do homework. To me, with all of that alcohol in the car, it sounded like she was going on a long bender and couldn't even wait to get there to start.

It has long been established that the call to Billy was from the Red Cross. "Many believe" does not change facts. The Red Cross notifies armed forces personnel in emergencies and the notification info is provided by the member and is regularly updated.

Who says this, Renner? Yeah, he's all over the place in his blog. Maura had been given several Red Cross phone cards from someone (I believe Billy's mom). Billy once stated that the phone call was that of a woman "soft sobbing, shivering...", which doesn't sound like someone from Red Cross.

I have that on videotape.

In how bad shape could the car have been in if she was able to drive it hundreds of miles without it breaking down?

She didn't have much of a choice considering she had wrecked her father's brand new car. They went out car shopping that weekend, but hadn't purchased one. Various people who knew Maura said her car was in such bad shape that she wouldn't even drive it around town for fear of it breaking down.

Fred's behavior shows he was not in the know or the part he did know was not what happened.

Fred likes to give off false impressions all the time.

For example, there were some panties found in the snow in the general area where Maura disappeared, which Fred was certain were Maura's and someone must have ripped them off her. He claims there was no testing done on it and he was never informed of anything. The police officer in the Disappeared episode stated that testing was done, Fred was informed, and they were NOT Maura's. I'm inclined to the police officer since a quick Google search will prove that testing was done and they were not Maura's.

Another example is that among Maura's possessions in the car was a book called "Not Without Peril". Maura's friends describe it as a book in which various people go off into the woods and either disappear or are badly injured. Fred calls the book "uplifting."

And yet another example is Fred's whining about how the police won't give him all the documents in this case, claiming it's a violation of the Freedom of Information act. There are various reasons for this, some of which include that it would hinder an ongoing investigation and would violate people's privacy, among other reasons. Fred continues to whine. Please let me know if you want the evidence to this and I can link it.

Did the rag come from Maura's car? Recent comments by Renner seem to indicate it did not. Wherever it came from it was very odd.

Yes it did. As I said, Renner is all over the place. I'd also like to know where he gets all this "information."

You missed the point. Under normal circumstances the odds would be high but if the bad guy set things up, they were much more likely. But MM would not know that. But it makes the random nature a bit less random.

Since he spontaneously met Maura, I'm not sure how he could have set anything up. It would have required pre-planning.

The gas station scenario may not apply if the sighting at the grocery store, which has been ignored by Renner and those podcast guys is true. These researchers ignore it either because they do not think it is credible (although it seems credible as it goes back to the early days) or because it ruins their own pet theories. Since the car was full she must have got gas somewhere nearby. The grocery store tale has her buddies going with her in a separate car which makes the scenario a bit less mysterious. Fred apparently heard this early on and may be the reason for his belief in the "random dirtbag" theory-- i.e. MM smashed up her car while in tandem with the buddies who were probably in front of her. When they came back for her they could not find her and never heard from her again. They told Fred but no one else.

I'm not familiar with this, perhaps you can elaborate or provide a link please.

Maura committed petty crimes at best (except, maybe, drunk driving) buying a single pizza, etc., indicating she was doing it just to do it, not to make a profit. And she wasn't very good at it. To hide out for years seems beyond her capabilities.

I've dispelled this myth before on this thread. She did not purchase a single pizza, she incurred MANY charges at several different businesses. Once again, if you would like to see that evidence for yourself, let me know, and I'll link it for you.

Stealing, committing identity theft, driving while under the influence of alcohol and driving while drinking are ALL SERIOUS crimes. I'm sorry that nobody here seems to care about the real victim here, namely the person whose credit card she STOLE.

Not to mention all of the people whose lives she endangered by driving under the influence of alcohol multiple times over a several day period.

Lastly unless the guy was tailgating her it is doubtful she would have realized she was being followed. Since the bus driver saw no one the follower was not right behind her and did not have to be as he would have known her route either from talking to her or because a car with Mass plates was probably not going to go off the main road. If the rag is part of this scenario, she'd not even make it to his house before stalling out. A stall out while making a sharp turn while sipping wine from a coke can could explain the accident.

Maybe if she never checked her rear view mirror she wouldn't notice, but otherwise that's hard to believe.

Fred claimed Maura's accident was to blame on the car having mechanical problems and because it was dark, which was such a load of crap I wanted to scream at him through my television. The reason she crashed was because she was drinking alcohol. No rag, no nothing else. The thing is, we'll never know her blood alcohol level because she evaded the police.

So I finally re-watched the Disappeared episode and I'm glad I did because it had these nuggets:

Fred does lots of whining about Maura's car, a Saturn, claiming about how "unreliable" it is. I've owned a Saturn since 2004, it's a 2002, and it's a very solid, reliable American-made car. I have never once been stranded while driving to work in 11 years with my Saturn. If the car has mechanical problems, there is one reason for that: that neither Maura nor Fred bothered to have them fixed. You own a car, you get it fixed when it needs fixed. You don't let the thing sit around collecting dust and paying insurance on it when you don't use it. Treat it well, and it will treat you well for the most part. Don't take care of it and you take your chances.

Fred talks about his and Maura's love of alcohol, specifically that they would always go to a brew pub for a meal and never anywhere else. They've both had alcohol-related one-vehicle accidents.

I've read somewhere, but can't really remember where or who said it, but one person close to Maura claimed that her supposed "distressing" late night phone call she received while working shortly before her disappearance was really just Maura attempting to get out of work. Interestingly, I just found out that not only did Maura lie and duck out of getting out of college classes by claiming there was a "death in the family", but she had also ducked out of work using that same excuse.

One friend describes Maura as "spontaneous" and says that in high school she once cut class, took a train all the way to Boston, didn't tell anyone about it and that they were worried about her. Read into that what you will.

Various friends as well as Fred says that they are shocked Maura never contacted them that weekend in regards to her plans, which indicates to me Maura was doing something that was against the norm, if you will.

It seems like we are just going in circles here questioning Maura's morals and integrity. She was by no means perfect, but conversely there are far worse people out there. I'm sure with many missing people, if you dig deep enough, you'll find some skeletons in their closet. Does that make them deserving of their fate? Not always.

In Maura's case some bad judgement calls got her into some trouble yes, but nothing terrible. West point is debatable, other folks following the case aren't necessarily in agreement with Renner that she was kicked out. The $75 credit card charge was going to be dropped. Her accident with Dad's Toyota resulted in no criminal charges and insurance would repair the car.

None of these, even by a long shot, are what I'd consider long term problems.

If anything perhaps she was a bit compulsive, had alcohol issues, maybe mildly depressed, naive, took too many risks etc...

...which to me is disastrous considering she had a booze fueled single car accident on a dark cold night by herself without a cellphone with service.

It seems like we are just going in circles here questioning Maura's morals and integrity. She was by no means perfect, but conversely there are far worse people out there. I'm sure with many missing people, if you dig deep enough, you'll find some skeletons in their closet. Does that make them deserving of their fate? Not always.

In Maura's case some bad judgement calls got her into some trouble yes, but nothing terrible. West point is debatable, other folks following the case aren't necessarily in agreement with Renner that she was kicked out. The $75 credit card charge was going to be dropped. Her accident with Dad's Toyota resulted in no criminal charges and insurance would repair the car.

None of these, even by a long shot, are what I'd consider long term problems.

If anything perhaps she was a bit compulsive, had alcohol issues, maybe mildly depressed, naive, took too many risks etc...

...which to me is disastrous considering she had a booze fueled single car accident on a dark cold night by herself without a cellphone with service.

I still scratch my head, wondering how she got off that first accident without it being labeled as an alcohol related crash, or without getting a DUI or whatever. Not much is known about this particular crash. What I do know is that it happened around 3:30 a.m. and she had just come from a party where she was drinking. I guess there is some room for debate here and Maura supporters will undoubtedly give her the benefit of the doubt here, but it's still a mystery. Did she not see the guardrail? Let's just say the insurance company was certainly suspicious of a 21 year old woman who crashed a new car at that hour. The insurance company was also not pleased.

Nobody forced Maura to drive for hours in her "unreliable car", to an area where she doesn't know anybody and where there's no service. Nobody forced her to turn down help from all those people and evade the police. If she met a random perp (which I think is highly unlikely), no she wouldn't deserve that fate, nobody does. But she made a lot of bad decisions and people suffered because of them.

What seems to get lost on people is that Maura would have faced further criminal charges for the accident that night, not the least of which was drinking while driving. She could have lost her license. She could have been jailed. And subsequently, those actions could have caused her to get fired and kicked out of college. You don't think that's motive enough for her to flee? And that's even forgetting all the other stuff like the credit card fraud, which Maura supporters conveniently gloss over all the time, as did the media. I'm also willing to bet that the first accident would have raised red flags for the police after she got herself in the second accident.

That Maura would drink while driving literally days after causing an accident and major damage to her father's brand new vehicle shows extremely poor judgment on her part. And the sad thing is, I don't think she really cared. Her credit card theft is proof she didn't care about people that weren't in her inner circle.

Certainly - the idea of two alcohol related crashes can be looked at a few ways. The Hadley accident and no resulting charges could have been a fluke - careless cop wrapping up his shift, who knows?

But to go and repeat the same mistake, after the incredible luck of being spared a DUI - screams depression to me. She didn't care, her life was going poorly...so she again takes comfort in booze and sets off to destination unknown to further take comfort in booze.

I still don't think she was cunning enough, or even in the proper state of mind to voluntarily disappear. Her life wasn't going as planned.

Sad, vulnerable, confused and drunk after a car accident makes me think 1) she certainly would be open to speaking to just about any stranger with a car willing to take her away from her mistake or 2) she carelessly ended up in a harsh, dark, wooded terrain, totally unprepared.

But to go and repeat the same mistake, after the incredible luck of being spared a DUI - screams depression to me. She didn't care, her life was going poorly...so she again takes comfort in booze and sets off to destination unknown to further take comfort in booze.

I don't know of anyone that claims she was depressed at the time and AFAIK she was never clinically diagnosed with depression. Her actions seem more like a combination of rebellion and spontaneous adventure to me, and she was known to partake in both. She had lots of alcohol with her and wanted to party hardy.

It is interesting that recently released documents on Maura's phone calls have several calls to the local Domino's Pizza shop in Amherst, one in the middle of the night after the place closed, in the days right before her disappearance. The calls were too long to be pizza orders. I think Domino's was also involved in the fraud case. It should not be difficult to figure out who she knew at Domino's. Such a person, if not previously identified, could be a key to the case.

Billy Rausch's cell phone records were posted to Renner's blog last week and one call he made the day after Maura disappeared jumped out at me.

At 6:28 p.m. on Feb. 10th, he called Kate Markopoulos and talked with her for 6 minutes. Keep in mind, all of Maura's loved ones have known that she has been missing for several hours at this point.

James Renner said in an earlier podcast that Kate went missing the exact same time Maura did. His exact words were that she disappeared off the map for a few days. Nobody knew where she was. She did not have an explanation for anyone as to where she was. When she finally resurfaced a few days later, she claimed to have found out about Maura's disappearance from fellow members of the UMass track team.

But go back to that six minute phone call between her and Billy the day after Maura disappeared. Surely the only thing they would have talked about, logically, is that Maura is missing. Where the hell is she? Where could she be? This would completely contradict her "finding out" about Maura several days later. And keep in mind, this phone call is taking place the exact same time that Kate herself is missing.

Once again, things are not adding up regarding Kate. Just like when she told police she "couldn't remember" a single person at that dorm party the night before Maura went missing.

Kate is a liar. She knows way more than what she's said regarding this case and still refuses to speak about it a decade later.

Mr. Renner's recent post explains very well why I don't think this was a random abduction:

http://mauramurray.blogspot.ca/2015/11/maura-was-not-abducted-by-killer-heres.html

oh man, whole lots of juicy details in some of the latest posts. I will list some of the facts, along with my "takeaways" of them.

-On Thursday, Maura calls Domino's Pizza at 3:40 a.m. and speaks to someone for two minutes. (Takeaway: either Maura has a weird obsession with pizza or she's talking to a person who helped her get away. I would say at least one of those is true).

-Maura was almost certainly going to be expelled from West Point for the theft of the make-up. The Honor Board recommended her expulsion to the superintendent, who was to make a final decision by late January. Maura resigned that month rather than face almost certain expulsion. (Takeaway: This means the likelihood goes up that Maura planned on voluntarily leaving UMass as well, since she knew how seriously theft was viewed by the higher-ups at the college).

-Maura signed documents that kept medical and disciplinary information from her parents. (Takeaway: This is interesting. Since Maura's parents have paid so much for her, you figure the least she could do is give them access of information. Was she pregnant? What was the disciplinary action taken?)

-Maura was skilled in self defense, having taken instruction on it. (Takeaway: This further decreases the likelihood she met with some random "bogeyman". Maura was more adept than most women at handling herself should she find herself in an emergency situation.)

-She was pulled out of class 7 times to appear before the Honor Board (Takeaway: sounds like she can't keep herself out of trouble. 7 times?)

-She failed at least one class (Takeaway: I might be willing to give Maura the benefit of the doubt here. Sometimes you get bad profs. It does sort of dispel the "Straight A" student that she's painted to be though.

-She may be semi-fluent in German (Takeaway: Maybe she's in Germany).

Renner has a good point about Maura having a habit of "starting over." Instead of facing the music at West Point and dealing with the complications that arose from her bad choices, she left before that could happen. Then she went to UMass. Whenever things didn't work out for her (due to her lying, stealing, bad decision-making, etc), she packed up and went on to something else.

I also found this interesting -- Renner says he received this comment: "Have you ever stopped to consider that I don't want to be found?" Ha! Could be just a troll, as Renner said, but whether or not it's her, I know I believe she's alive and well out there some where.

There are so many elements to this case. Here is something interesting I found

QUOTE:

Here's Lady Gray's post #1200 on Topix at page 59

Lady Gray

I have cut and pasted below RO's description of the truck and her experience that night:

"I wish I could give an exact description of the truck but I can not. I was walking that night about 7 p.m to the local store. As I was walking up the hill, a truck passed me and slowed down. When it got to the middle of the hill it stopped in the road. I immediately looked at the plate and noticed it was from Massachusetts. There is only 1 street light there and I could not tell how many people were in the vehicle. As I got closer to the truck it took off up the hill. When I rounded the corner to the store, I could see the truck in the driveway of the store. As I walked into the parking lot, which is well lit, the truck took off toward the crash site,(of course at that time I did not know there was a crash).

As for the red truck, it slowed, then stopped and waited for me to get closer, then took off up the hill. He did not leave the store parking lot in any sort of hurry.

When I entered the store I asked if she saw the people in that truck and she said no, no one had come in. I told her about them stopping in the hill. Then we just forgot about it. I stood in the store a while and was there when the police and ambulance went by. I never saw that truck again. The only way I can describe it is that it looked like someone who delivered wood. That was my first thought about it........red, MA plates and delivered wood. Either having a wood body or even just slats in the body. It was not a king cab or extra cab. Just a regular truck. That is all I can tell you.

I was in the Swiftwater store for 1/2 hour - 45 minutes. It was about 20-30 minutes after I was there that the police went by. I am not at all Maura's size and in fact I was bundled up that night. I believe I caught the truck off guard as I was walking well off the road and as they passed I walked back on, which is why I believe they stopped completely. They could not see me without any street lights and maybe went to the store and waited for me to get up there to get a better look??? I don't know. That is just how it seemed to me.

The truck didn't scare me. My thought is that they/he/she thought I was someone else. That is what I was thinking that night. When I saw them sitting at the store, I again thought, they really think I am someone else. And as I got closer and I could see the driver moving around - I was thinking, there, I am not the person you are looking for, and he drove off. I wish to God I could remember what I was wearing that night, but I can't.

Someone asked about the truck and whether it was 4 wheel drive. I believe it was. I have been looking at trucks and have determined that it was definitely a four wheel drive or at least it was a 3/4 ton pick up, because it sat up high. The other thing I remember is that the window in the back was hard to see in....it wasn't very large.....which tells me it was an older truck maybe???"

END QUOTE

This definitely sounds like someone from Massachusetts accompanied Maura to the accident area or vice versa (perhaps they weren't bumper to bumper, but pretty damn close), and was hovering in the area, waiting to pick Maura up after she staged the accident. I'm not comfortable with completely dismissing the idea she struck the pedestrian, especially since some people online have said that the damage to the vehicle is more in line with a car hitting a person than running into a tree and what not. The Massachusetts plates would rule out a local perp, it was last seen heading in the direction of the accident, and was apparently waiting to pick someone up.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

For anyone who may have missed it, a new video featuring the Maura Murray case will be on unsolved.com (http://www.unsolved.com) beginning Friday, December 11th. James Renner's blog has a teaser.

It's interesting to note the various attempts Maura made to find lodging just before she died. At the very least, we know she was looking at Burlington, VT. There was also a call to a Linda Salamone, inquiring about a condo, the day she disappeared as a matter of fact.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

The information presented is so unclear with many currently unknown tangential points that I'd say there is a thick fog around any water fowl. The whole red truck incident is a good example. It may be something but it is much more likely (quack quack) that it is nothing. The time it happened, the description and inferences drawn from the incident seem somewhat flaky. To me much more interesting is that the owner of the store/ gas station where the truck was seen threw Renner out, that that owner was good friends with the contractor who lived within sight of the accident and a month later came up with an alibi "sighting" of a woman running miles from the scene (and later his ex said he killed MM). [ps what are the odds that someone who lived within sight of the accident would be accused of murder by his ex? and that the accused would later not let the cops search his residence? but, ironically, he had a sighting that gave him an alibi but he didn't remember it for a month?] And since the car was full of gas, MM had to have just got gas somewhere. But even these might all be coincidential tangents. We don't know enough to connect the dots.

I don't know. I've also been following Renner's blog and man, it has BLOWN UP over the past couple of months. I realize the case has gotten a lot of press recently, but it makes me also wonder if Renner IS onto something and people have gone into massive CYA mode.

The troll post was pretty interesting. I'm 99% sure it WASN'T Maura. And I was initially positive that she perished in the elements, but now I'm not so sure of that, either...

For anyone who may have missed it, a new video featuring the Maura Murray case will be on unsolved.com (http://www.unsolved.com) beginning Friday, December 11th. James Renner's blog has a teaser.

I was surprised to see that. I don't visit that site often but I was aware that they still list cases and potential updates.

Here, it's looking like that are editing together a feature about Maura, complete with an interview with Fred Murray. I imagine it will probably be short with no reenactments. Just interviews and pictures. But kudos to Unsolved.com for doing this.

To me much more interesting is that the owner of the store/ gas station where the truck was seen threw Renner out,

That's not surprising in the least. Most of the people connected to Maura frequently lie, evade, or some combination of the two. Renner is frequently met with roadblocks such as that one because Maura's friends and family don't want people to find out the truth.

I don't know. I've also been following Renner's blog and man, it has BLOWN UP over the past couple of months. I realize the case has gotten a lot of press recently, but it makes me also wonder if Renner IS onto something and people have gone into massive CYA mode.

The troll post was pretty interesting. I'm 99% sure it WASN'T Maura. And I was initially positive that she perished in the elements, but now I'm not so sure of that, either...


it blew up because of that podcast (which, ironically, is not really that good)... Renner said he had a secret (ie new evidence) to reveal then did not. Apparently it has something to do with either Murray being pregnant or not being alone and, if true, increased the likelihood she was murdered (seemingly by the father of the baby?)

also good Renner timing as his book is coming out soon (unless he delays it because of the big secret)

That's not surprising in the least. Most of the people connected to Maura frequently lie, evade, or some combination of the two. Renner is frequently met with roadblocks such as that one because Maura's friends and family don't want people to find out the truth.

but this reaction seemed more extreme

One of the biggest indicators of voluntary disappearance is the missing alcohol. The red wine was left behind, but most, if not all, the rest (which was at least 3 bottles) was missing. No apparent reason why she would take that with her if she ran into a "bogeyman".

The condo she inquired about was very near where she disappeared.

If my theory that she struck Petrit Vasi is correct, that means Maura got into *THREE* accidents in as many days. Wherever she is, I hope she has a chauffer because she should never be behind the wheel of a vehicle ever again.

Maura was not given a breathalyzer test for whatever reason when she crashed Fred's new car.

Fred stated he told Maura to put a rag in her tailpipe because it was "smoking something fierce" and was worried she would be pulled over. This pretty much dispels the theory some tandem driver with nefarious intentions put in there when she stopped to slow her down.

Fred became "on the outs" with a group of volunteers, just as he did the police in this case. Fred went on to lie his ass off about not being told beforehand about one particular search. One of the people involved in that search distinctly remembers telling him about it beforehand

As I've stated before, I originally thought Maura was drunk, stumbled out into the elements, and perished after the accident. A lot of things have served to sway my opinion on that.

The BIG thing that really bothers me is this-- yes, Maura was having problems. In the grand scheme of things, however, these were not life-destroying problems. They were setbacks, but nothing that couldn't have been overcome. WHY would she feel the need to run away over these things? In addition, if you're going to run away, why not just vanish? Why stage such a scene? Maura, by all accounts, is not stupid. She would HAVE to have known that there would be *some* attention drawn to a set of circumstances like this.

On the flip side, if her remains are ever recovered and she's even remotely in the area of the accident, we're all gonna feel really sheepish for all the man hours we put into trying to puzzle this one out. Myself included.

[QUOTE=wiseguy182]

The condo she inquired about was very near where she disappeared.[QUOTE]

The distance between Haverhill and Bartlett where the condo was is 64 miles!

Just watched the Maura Murray video on the unsolved.com website.

Anyone ELSE think it was interesting that it was FRED MURRAY who was making the plea for help? Given all I've read about his level of concern during Maura's disappearance, I find it very eyebrow-raising. Also the claim of the policeman who may have been responsible for her disappearance. It's a very "timely" argument to make right now (you know, dishonest police officers, officers convicted of serial rape and police brutality, it's all too common to read about these days.)

Where was this statement 10 years ago?

EDIT: Have we discussed the contents of her car? I am a pack rat and have all sorts of things in my car. I do NOT, nor have I ever, driven with 4 different types of shampoo in my car. I may have a bottle of dry shampoo in my gym bag, but that's it. Another interesting wrinkle.

EDIT: Have we discussed the contents of her car? I am a pack rat and have all sorts of things in my car. I do NOT, nor have I ever, driven with 4 different types of shampoo in my car. I may have a bottle of dry shampoo in my gym bag, but that's it. Another interesting wrinkle.

- "Tundra" garment bag, color green
- "Tic Tac" container (opened)
- ESPN Zone card
- MCI Prepaid Phone Cards
- TTI National, Inc. Calling Card
- Samsung Travel Adapter
- Paperwork
- pr. Puma sweatpants, color black and white
- Express polo, long sleeve polo shirt, size medium
- sports bra, color black
- Old Navy V-neck sweater, black
- pr Abercrombie & Fitch pants, size 4, white with black belt
- Old Navy sweatshirt, zip up with hood, size medium
- pr. Basics sneakers, color white
- pink sock with cow design on it
- papermate pen
- Perfect Blend make-up pencil
- Big Y tokens
- Bra, color pale blue, size 34A
- $.75 coins
- "Army Track" duffle bag, color black with gold colored straps
- Health professional drug guide
- Mead spiral notebook, green
- UMass Complete Health History questionnaire
- Vermont attracts map
- Mosbys Phramocology in Nursing Book
- can Alumaseal
- can Fix a Flat
- can STP Power steering fluid
- can Carpet and Stain remover
- Big Y plastic shopping bag
- multicolored glove
- black gloves
- jar Vlasic baby kosher dill pickles (opened)
- bottle of Diet Cherry Coke (opened)
- package of Twizzlers (opened)
- Sears plastic bag
- 2057 light bulb
- 2057A Amber light bulbs
- container Turtle Wax rubbing compound
- Craftsman starbit screwdriver
- Eastern Mass Road Map
- Not Without Peril book
- CD case with 34 Cds
- CD holders
- Portable JVC CD player
- AC Cell phone power adapters
- Radiator funnel, yellow
- Shaws plastic bag
- cosmetic pound with make-up
- tube Shear VO5 hairdressing
- bottle Top Care aspirin
- pack of Triphasil Birth Control (4 pills missing)
- toothbrush, white & magenta
- bottle "Got to be Good" shampoo
- bottle of "Bon Bons" fingernail polish
- pks Simply Sleep sleeping pills
- bottle Aveo juice skin quencher
- container of Speed Stick deodorant
- ProActive Solution cleanser
- bottle of Victoria Secret body lotion
- tube Colgate
- bottle Cucumber Melon Fantasy Body Spray
- Gillette razor
- empty box of Simply Sleep
- bottle of Cairol Herbal Essence shampoo
- bottle Head & Shoulder shampoo
- package Crest white strips
- travel toothbruth
- Skyvalley4you.com pen
- make-up mirror
- tampon
- multi-purpose funnel
- Led Zeppelin cassette tape
- photograph of Kurtis Murray
- U2 cassette tape
- USMA patch
- "Fleet" Fast Lane toll pass
- Magnetic can opener
- Vaco flat head screwdriver
- Red handled phillips screwdriver
- tire gauge
- pk. Extra chewing gum
- automobile cigarette lighter
- pens
- pencil
- 3X5 card with directions
- empty cellophane pouch
- UMass Student Telephone Directory
- paperwork

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

When I was in college, the contents of my car were: spare change in the cup-holder, about 100 CD's, De-icer for the windshield (for winter) and the occasional fast food receipt that didn't get thrown away.

Maura's car sounds like she went on a full out shopping spree at CVS and Staples. But the general responses on the blog seem to be that this seems pretty normal for a college girl to have in her car.

The only items that raise an eyebrow is the amount of shampoo, like you said. Also the cigarette lighter. I never heard that Maura smoked. And being a former track star and athlete, it seems unlikely she would.

- Maura's car sounds like she went on a full out shopping spree at CVS and Staples. But the general responses on the blog seem to be that this seems pretty normal for a college girl to have in her car.

The only items that raise an eyebrow is the amount of shampoo, like you said. Also the cigarette lighter. I never heard that Maura smoked. And being a former track star and athlete, it seems unlikely she would.

I don't think ALL of this is normal. But it does lend itself to the theory that she wasn't running away completely. It wasn't ALL of her clothes, but what looks like enough for maybe a weekend. Except the fact that she didn't have socks and underwear. :eek: :eek:

To me, it doesn't appear as if the car is overly cluttered. I think we're dealing with a packed duffel bag of clothing (maybe a gym bag?) and a backpack with her school stuff, in addition to a bunch of car maintenance items possibly found in the trunk. I did find all the cell phone stuff intriguing, but again-- if she were going away on a weekend trip, she could logically pack all that. I typically do when I'm going on a road trip.

Montanan speaking up-- she may have had the cigarette lighter in her "car survival" stuff? I know I carry both a lighter and matches in my car and I am also a non-smoker, but have them in case I need to light a fire in an emergency. I'd be interested to note the location of the lighter. Other explanation: One of her smoker friends left it in the car. EDIT-- As I read it closer, it states "automotive car lighter." Is it the car lighter that was in her car?

But yeah. The shampoo throws me.

The BIG thing that really bothers me is this-- yes, Maura was having problems. In the grand scheme of things, however, these were not life-destroying problems. They were setbacks, but nothing that couldn't have been overcome. WHY would she feel the need to run away over these things?


I think they were pretty serious, though. Her past problems with alcohol and theft, flunking out of West Point, problems with her boyfriend, being on academic probation at UMass, multiple car accidents...even mild to moderate things can seem huge when they pile up on you.

In addition, you or I may not think these things (or whatever else was going on in her life) are serious, but maybe she did. How many of us are totally mature and rational at age 19 or 20? Sometimes young people do stupid and irrational things. Maybe this was one of those times.

In addition, if you're going to run away, why not just vanish? Why stage such a scene? Maura, by all accounts, is not stupid. She would HAVE to have known that there would be *some* attention drawn to a set of circumstances like this.


I honestly don't think she was trying to stage some kind of scene or elaborate disappearance. I tend to agree with your earliest theory- she was trying to go away for a weekend or a week, crashed the car, took off into the woods and died.

The distance between Haverhill and Bartlett where the condo was is 64 miles!

ah, ok. I was reciting that from something I read online.

I think my main point still applies though. If she wasn't planning on running away, then why look into the condo, which is still some distance from where she lives? Because a college student in the middle of a term, who lives in a dorm, would have no discernible reason for looking at a large condo that can house at least two people.

I suppose the search for lodging at Burlington, VT on her computer could just mean she was planning on visiting there. But how is the condo in Bartlett explained?

Just watched the Maura Murray video on the unsolved.com website.

Anyone ELSE think it was interesting that it was FRED MURRAY who was making the plea for help? Given all I've read about his level of concern during Maura's disappearance, I find it very eyebrow-raising. Also the claim of the policeman who may have been responsible for her disappearance. It's a very "timely" argument to make right now (you know, dishonest police officers, officers convicted of serial rape and police brutality, it's all too common to read about these days.)

Where was this statement 10 years ago?

EDIT: Have we discussed the contents of her car? I am a pack rat and have all sorts of things in my car. I do NOT, nor have I ever, driven with 4 different types of shampoo in my car. I may have a bottle of dry shampoo in my gym bag, but that's it. Another interesting wrinkle.

Fred is all talk and show. He had the gall to say that he was "the only one looking for Maura." Which is not only an absurd and untruthful statement, it's also a colossal slap in the face to the probably HUNDREDS of people who spent considerable time and resources looking for Maura, not to mention all the people in the area where she disappeared who have consented to Fred looking on their property.

Fred claims to be looking for Maura every weekend and all this, but it's all for attention. He needs to stop with the bogus lawsuits, the lying, the evading, the pissing off just about everyone connected to this case and just come out and reveal what he knows. What exactly that is, I don't know. But I'm 99.9% sure he knows more than he's saying.

I'll have to look at the contents of her car dynoguy posted later. Running on little sleep and it's too much to take in at this point.

I don't normally put a lot of stock into eyewitness sightings, but the ones concerning Maura are interesting indeed and seem to back up the theory she disappeared voluntarily. Let's examine these:

-Lots of sightings in Quebec, particularly an area known as "Sherbrooke". One account some time after her disappearance describes seeing a person looking a lot like Maura but older (which would match-up time-wise). Account says individual was "watching, discreet, little weird, moving slowly, didn't want to attend large concert." This leads me to believe the person was Maura, as she undoubtedly wouldn't want to be seen in a large crowd, and was no doubt nervous about being in public at all.

It's also interesting to note that missing posters have been put up regarding Maura in Quebec. This is definitely not normal, for missing posters to go up in a different country from the one the person disappeared from. This leads me to believe there is a legitimate reason to believe Maura is in Quebec.

And when you think about it, Quebec would seem to "make sense" for a lot of reasons:

1) It wouldn't have taken long at all for Maura and her accomplice(s) to get there from New Hampshire.

2) Since it's an entirely different country, and one where the predominant language is also different, the publicity for Maura's disappearance in Quebec was probably either low or nonexistent. The missing posters did raise the public's awareness there a little bit eventually, but not much. I mean, there are always tons of those posters at my local Wal-Mart and I seem to be the only one who pays any attention to them. Also taking into account Maura could have altered her appearance, and would no doubt look different nearly 12 years later.

Expanding on that, people just wouldn't be searching hard for Maura in Quebec. Yeah, this case got a lot of attention here in the States, but in Canada it wouldn't have. Plus, it's not illegal to be an adult and runaway, unless a crime was committed.

That could all change though if Maura was tied to the drive-by on Petrit Vasi. If Maura is guilty of that and the police know it, they could go after her as a fugitive and then there would be a greater effort to find her in Quebec.

-Maura was also sighted in Woodsville an hour before vanishing with 2 friends. This is interesting because it's not just a sighting of Maura, but a sighting of her with 2 friends, which would back up the theory that she had assistance in getting away. There are so many names involved in this case, it's hard to keep track of them all, but I believe these friends were Sara Alfieri and Kate Markopolous. The eyewitness account was from a cashier who says they all purchased more alcohol (certainly fits Maura, doesn't it?)

Additionally, the cashier says they all purchased cigarettes as well. This would fit in with the cigarette lighter being found in Maura's car. Yes, she wasn't known to smoke, but she could have picked it up. She also could have lost interest in running, or didn't want to do it wherever she is now for fear of being seen.

- Led Zeppelin cassette tape
- U2 cassette tape


At least she had good taste in music. :)

The last phone call at work is important. It has been commonly reported that Maura was so distraught over it that her supervisor ordered her to leave work early and accompanied her back to her room. Yet, just a few hours later, Maura was well enough to call Domino's. So what are the possible explanations for this series of events, and what theory makes sense that ties everything together?

1) The phone call was to report to Maura information on the hit and run of Petrit Vasi. This could mean different things. Either Maura hit him herself and the call was to inform her the injuries were serious and he was transported to the hospital. Or, the phone call was one of Maura's friends or relatives to report they had struck Vasi with her car, which she would have lent them in this scenario. Maura's breakdown at work is legitimate, but she is concerned not about Vasi, but about what possible implications this could have for her and the people close to her, so she is able to make the phone call to Domino's.

2) The "breakdown" was just a ruse to get out of work. Since she was already making numerous lengthy phone calls and doing her homework on the job, it's indicative she wasn't taking her responsibilities seriously. We already know she ducked out of college courses on the Monday with her phony "death in the family" bit, and since she failed at least one class, she probably wasn't putting full effort into her college courses either. She calls Domino's to continue her socializing.

I can't think of any other scenarios where everything else fits. She doesn't come out looking good either way.

2) The "breakdown" was just a ruse to get out of work. Since she was already making numerous lengthy phone calls and doing her homework on the job, it's indicative she wasn't taking her responsibilities seriously. We already know she ducked out of college courses on the Monday with her phony "death in the family" bit, and since she failed at least one class, she probably wasn't putting full effort into her college courses either. She calls Domino's to continue her socializing.

I just graduated from college and the students I worked with were not even slightly interested in doing their work. They broke rules at work when the boss was there and broke even more when she wasn't. I've always wondered if your #2 was the more likely scenario for the breakdown.

Who had cassette tapes in 2003? I guess I had a tape player in my car back then, but I never used it. It was ancient even in the late 90s.

- "Tundra" garment bag, color green
- "Tic Tac" container (opened)
- ESPN Zone card
- MCI Prepaid Phone Cards
- TTI National, Inc. Calling Card
- Samsung Travel Adapter
- Paperwork
- pr. Puma sweatpants, color black and white
- Express polo, long sleeve polo shirt, size medium
- sports bra, color black
- Old Navy V-neck sweater, black
- pr Abercrombie & Fitch pants, size 4, white with black belt
- Old Navy sweatshirt, zip up with hood, size medium
- pr. Basics sneakers, color white
- pink sock with cow design on it
- papermate pen
- Perfect Blend make-up pencil
- Big Y tokens
- Bra, color pale blue, size 34A
- $.75 coins
- "Army Track" duffle bag, color black with gold colored straps
- Health professional drug guide
- Mead spiral notebook, green
- UMass Complete Health History questionnaire
- Vermont attracts map
- Mosbys Phramocology in Nursing Book
- can Alumaseal
- can Fix a Flat
- can STP Power steering fluid
- can Carpet and Stain remover
- Big Y plastic shopping bag
- multicolored glove
- black gloves
- jar Vlasic baby kosher dill pickles (opened)
- bottle of Diet Cherry Coke (opened)
- package of Twizzlers (opened)
- Sears plastic bag
- 2057 light bulb
- 2057A Amber light bulbs
- container Turtle Wax rubbing compound
- Craftsman starbit screwdriver
- Eastern Mass Road Map
- Not Without Peril book
- CD case with 34 Cds
- CD holders
- Portable JVC CD player
- AC Cell phone power adapters
- Radiator funnel, yellow
- Shaws plastic bag
- cosmetic pound with make-up
- tube Shear VO5 hairdressing
- bottle Top Care aspirin
- pack of Triphasil Birth Control (4 pills missing)
- toothbrush, white & magenta
- bottle "Got to be Good" shampoo
- bottle of "Bon Bons" fingernail polish
- pks Simply Sleep sleeping pills
- bottle Aveo juice skin quencher
- container of Speed Stick deodorant
- ProActive Solution cleanser
- bottle of Victoria Secret body lotion
- tube Colgate
- bottle Cucumber Melon Fantasy Body Spray
- Gillette razor
- empty box of Simply Sleep
- bottle of Cairol Herbal Essence shampoo
- bottle Head & Shoulder shampoo
- package Crest white strips
- travel toothbruth
- Skyvalley4you.com pen
- make-up mirror
- tampon
- multi-purpose funnel
- Led Zeppelin cassette tape
- photograph of Kurtis Murray
- U2 cassette tape
- USMA patch
- "Fleet" Fast Lane toll pass
- Magnetic can opener
- Vaco flat head screwdriver
- Red handled phillips screwdriver
- tire gauge
- pk. Extra chewing gum
- automobile cigarette lighter
- pens
- pencil
- 3X5 card with directions
- empty cellophane pouch
- UMass Student Telephone Directory
- paperwork

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

When I was in college, the contents of my car were: spare change in the cup-holder, about 100 CD's, De-icer for the windshield (for winter) and the occasional fast food receipt that didn't get thrown away.

Maura's car sounds like she went on a full out shopping spree at CVS and Staples. But the general responses on the blog seem to be that this seems pretty normal for a college girl to have in her car.

The only items that raise an eyebrow is the amount of shampoo, like you said. Also the cigarette lighter. I never heard that Maura smoked. And being a former track star and athlete, it seems unlikely she would.

I'm sure if you looked through anybody's car (myself included) and made an inventory you'd find A LOT of stuff/junk, probably even some things that had no reasonable explanation for being there.

Who had cassette tapes in 2003? I guess I had a tape player in my car back then, but I never used it. It was ancient even in the late 90s.

I still have them in 2015. Still use them.

The issue is that technology keeps changing. Cassettes replaced 8-tracks, cd's replaced records, and now there are various inventions that have replaced cd's. More or less. People with huge collections would be out thousands of dollars to convert their catalogs to one new format. Multiply that by various cycles and it's a small fortune.

I just graduated from college and the students I worked with were not even slightly interested in doing their work. They broke rules at work when the boss was there and broke even more when she wasn't. I've always wondered if your #2 was the more likely scenario for the breakdown.

Thank you sprinkles. A lot of the ones I worked with were lazy and I've worked with them in both college and in the employment field. Many times, I ended up doing their work for them. There are a lot of hardworking college students out there, but I haven't met many of them. I'm next to Michigan State University, the nation's premiere party college and Riot capital of the U.S.

Some have said it was unlikely that Maura could have ducked out of there in order to hit Vasi, and that it would have taken considerable time to do so even though he was hit very near the college, and that she couldn't re-enter the building due to her card being deactivated. The thing is though, there are numerous possibilities. 1) I'm guessing she had a lunch or a break of some sort. Either that, or she got someone to cover for her. 2) She could have had a friend let her in.

Oh man, this is interesting! from the blog, this is a ways back:

Maura cheated on her boyfriend Billy with her track coach, Hossein Baghdadi (partially at the urging of her friends, presumably the ones that are remaining tight-lipped). Their relationship was described as "hot and heavy". Out of the blue, Maura stopped seeing him and contacting him. After some time had passed, Hossein learned that Maura had gotten back together with Billy, whom she had told Hossein was an "ex-boyfriend" (which is another lie on Maura's part since they never broke up).

After Maura's disappearance, detectives questioned Hossein and he told them that Maura had once told him she wished she could disappear and his first reaction upon learning about her disappearance was that she voluntarily ran away. He also stated that Maura was "very promiscuous" and slept with various members of the track team.

So it sounds like she cheated. Lots. On various partners. Additionally, this makes the odds of pregnancy go up. One theory put forth was that Maura had purchased the mass amounts of alcohol to drink enough to miscarry. She had done searches on her computer for that type of thing.

Who had cassette tapes in 2003? I guess I had a tape player in my car back then, but I never used it. It was ancient even in the late 90s.

My car was filled with cassette tapes as recently as 2005. That year, two of my friends bought me a CD player to be installed in my car as a birthday present because in their words: they were sick of me living in the 80's. Then last year, after constantly making fun of me for having endless CD's in my car, they bought me an I-Tunes gift card. I'm always a little behind the times.

Maura's car, like many cars from the late 90's, had the option of both CD and cassette player. And many people made use of both. I don't find that odd at all.

some bits and pieces I picked out from various parts in the blog.

-Yet another lie by Fred Murray was his various stories about what happened after Maura crashed his new car. He told one person close to him that Maura went to the hotel and passed out in the lobby. He told a completely different story to the police. This is cunning on his part because "passed out" probably means intoxicated or under the influence, and the lies he told police were most likely to cover up that Maura was drinking when she crashed the car.

-More info on the sighting from when 3 ladies were spotted purchasing alcohol just an hour or two before Maura's Haverhill crash. The cashier said 2 of the id's were from Massachusetts. The third was from New York or Connecticut. I believe Kate Markopolous has ties to New York.

-I've read various accounts of Fred's "searches" near where Maura disappeared. The real people looking for Maura were the volunteers, NOT Fred. Multiple people have stated Fred's usual routine was to get up late, go jogging, shower, have breakfast, and start looking for Maura at 10 a.m. or so (?!) Presumably, Fred would then "search" for a few hours, have lunch, "search" for a few more hours and then call everyone to the bar (a favorite hangout of his) at 5 p.m. for drinks and partying. This routine was only broken when there were cameras around, at which point Fred would go to great lengths to make it appear he was furiously searching for his daughter.

Now, does this sound like a man hell bent on finding his daughter? Or does this sound like someone doing a half-ass job because he knows the real answers? I know what I believe.

I really can't describe how much lying and evasiveness Maura's friends and family have done. Sara Alferi and Kate Markopolous have said next to nothing about Maura's disappearance since it happened and Kate has claimed repeatedly that she can't remember a single other person who attended the party. There's also a lot of confusion as to WHERE the party was held at. Renner is actively searching for Maura and has been completely shut out by them. They banned him on Facebook, they completely ignored him when he contacted them.

I personally believe that Maura probably did hit Petrit Vasi and that alcohol was involved, which means Maura may have set an all-time world record for most alcohol related car accidents in a single week at three. I think that theory ties up several of the loose ends. It explains why she was so devastated at work, and also why she hasn't reappeared. Yeah, it could be argued the credit card fraud and stuff possibly wouldn't have had long-standing effects, but nearly killing a man, putting him in a coma, and leaving the scene of a crime certainly would have. And that poor Vasi will never be the same after that. Maura, whom I believe is a sociopath, probably doesn't care a whit about that. She just cared about how it would have tarnished her image.

As Ricci suggested, most of the items fall into a few categories.

Clothes/Beauty items ~ Putting this as delicately as possible, women tend to pack more then men, so I can understand why there is so much that falls into this category, especially if she was, you know, not planning on going back.

Car Maintenance/emergency Items ~ This is one of the few areas I can give Maura credit, as she seemed somewhat well stocked in case something went wrong. By the way, everyone should have an emergency and first aid kit in your car. Obviously, everyone will differ as to what should go in there, but some good suggestions are: flares, candles, items for warmth, bottles of water, jumper cables, multi-purpose tool, flashlight, kitty litter (fellow northerners will know what this is about), batteries, maps (yes, the paper kind), battery operated radio, waterproof matches, etc.

Most of the rest of the items can be chalked up to entertainment, work-related and things that would normally be found in a car. There are a few outliers though...

-Carpet stain remover? Is there some alternate use for this I'm not familiar with?

-Sleeping pills: both an empty box, as well as several packs of pills. I can understand taking a few with you, but it appears she took quite a few, and additionally, the empty box throws up a red flag. Did she overdose and commit suicide?

-Food items. I noticed every single one of them was opened, although it's not stated if it appeared they were consumed. Did Maura wrestle with a package or bottle and cause the accident?

-photo of Kurtis. Interestingly, no pictures of any other family members?

As Ricci suggested, most of the items fall into a few categories.

Clothes/Beauty items ~ Putting this as delicately as possible, women tend to pack more then men, so I can understand why there is so much that falls into this category, especially if she was, you know, not planning on going back.

Car Maintenance/emergency Items ~ This is one of the few areas I can give Maura credit, as she seemed somewhat well stocked in case something went wrong. By the way, everyone should have an emergency and first aid kit in your car. Obviously, everyone will differ as to what should go in there, but some good suggestions are: flares, candles, items for warmth, bottles of water, jumper cables, multi-purpose tool, flashlight, kitty litter (fellow northerners will know what this is about), batteries, maps (yes, the paper kind), battery operated radio, waterproof matches, etc.

Most of the rest of the items can be chalked up to entertainment, work-related and things that would normally be found in a car. There are a few outliers though...

-Carpet stain remover? Is there some alternate use for this I'm not familiar with?

-Sleeping pills: both an empty box, as well as several packs of pills. I can understand taking a few with you, but it appears she took quite a few, and additionally, the empty box throws up a red flag. Did she overdose and commit suicide?

-Food items. I noticed every single one of them was opened, although it's not stated if it appeared they were consumed. Did Maura wrestle with a package or bottle and cause the accident?

-photo of Kurtis. Interestingly, no pictures of any other family members?

As far as the clothes go, I see your point, but I don't think she packed a number of clothes that would suggest she was leaving forever. I saw enough to potentially be a weekend's worth of clothing...and a lot of it actually sounded like the contents of a gym bag.

I've thought about the possibility of huffing with the carpet stain remover. I'm not sure if that chemical compound has the same components that aerosol cans do, which is what makes you high when you inhale it. But it had crossed my mind.

I thought the sleeping pills were interesting, too. Of note, however, they were over the counter sleep aids. I'm not sure how much damage they could cause if you ingested them.

I didn't think too much of the food items, although I wryly joked to myself she may have been pregnant based on the strange combo of licorice, pickles, and diet soda. :) I usually have a Diet Pepsi and some form of snack food in my car.

The picture of her brother stuck out to me, too. If I remember correctly, she was close with her brother. I don't remember about the rest of the family.

This case has always baffled me. Did they ever find out anything about where and why she went where she did?

I just started to get into this case recently. I've read much of Renner's blog and also just started listening to the podcasts.

I really just don't know. The closest thing I can come to a conclusion on is that Maura wasn't smart enough nor savvy enough to engineer her dissapearance and make it stick for 11 years now. She seems like she was an extreme emotional mess and very unstable leading up to this incident. Could someone like that be crafty enough and have her head on straight enough to engineer such an elaborate disapperance? I have my doubts, but I don't feel confident enough to say she definitely couldn't have. I go back and forth between suicide, abduction/murder, and willful hiding all the time and I think there is an equal chance of either scenario.

I'm really 50/50 on this whole case. I will say there seems to be alot of shadiness going on from almost everyone involved. Her friends, Fred Murray and even the police.

Ok so this was never on UM as it was afterward I kept wondering what this thread was about lol. But it does remind me of two very popular segments (Dakota double death and Patricia Meehan). Both were vehicle accidents involving mental disorientation or substance abuse. Both had multiple angles of possible theories including foul play(which I was always skeptical to some degree). Both also had Mother Nature elements (although I don't recall what time of year Meehan disappeared). I do know many segments featured the harsh elements and as we've seen many times the elements win unless someone is equipped to survive. Being under the influence of alcohol/drugs/or injury is a major disadvantage.

I never read any blogs or listened to a podcast but I did see the disappeared case and the father on the UM YouTube channel. I think this is a case of a young lady whose alcohol use was out of control. No one really wanted to say it on the disappeared episode but good lord the amount of alcohol she bought and was likely drinking on her drive. The father mentions drinking with her briefly but really tries to hide her negative behavior and pump up her accolades. I don't know if his and her relationship had issues(maybe he pushed her too hard in athletics and academics) or if they were just very close as he said. The only thing that is clear to me is that he did cover up alcohol use to police/insurance in the first accident. Who knows what happened behind the scenes. He may have been very mad at her and had a confrontation with her leading to her going the wrong direction. Or then again maybe he did nothing to hold her accountable for her actions. Either way This may be why he's so defensive and appears to feel guilty. He also appears to blame others for what happened. IIRC he did mention finally on the YouTube channel that yes maybe she was drinking but she didn't deserve to die.

when she wrecked the second time I think she was trying to avoid going to jail and ran away thinking I've done this before and I'm athletic and smart enough to get away with it. But the elements were too much not to mention she may have been injured from head trauma then combine that with alcohol.

That's not surprising in the least. Most of the people connected to Maura frequently lie, evade, or some combination of the two. Renner is frequently met with roadblocks such as that one because Maura's friends and family don't want people to find out the truth.

of course it was VERY surprising. it was the only instance where Renner was almost physically accosted and it was done by someone who seemingly had only a geographical connection to the case. the gas station owner only seemed to be connected to the case by being friends with the contractor who lived within sight of the accident but failed to notice it supposedly at the time and a month later claimed an alibi by saying he saw a figure running along the same road 10 miles away shortly after the accident and then not letting the police search his home. otherwise no known connection although one of his customers later claimed to see a strange red pick up truck near the gas station before the accident.

the family's hostility to renner is understandable as they have tried to portray her as an angel in all mainstream media accounts of the case including the disappeared episode and father Fred's very recent online video at unsolved.com. they knew renner would cover the case warts and all (although overall I think he is very favorable to MM) and they thought he was trying to cash in on their misery.

Who had cassette tapes in 2003? I guess I had a tape player in my car back then, but I never used it. It was ancient even in the late 90s.

cassettes in cars were contemporary with 8 tracks. I had a cassette player in my car in the late 1970s. 8 tracks, like beta, died out quickly. the first time I saw a cd player in a car was in 1995 or so. for a while many cars had both cds and cassette players, probably up to the early 00s. my first car with a cd player I bought in 2001. I think MM's Saturn was from the mid 90s so it is not a shocker if it had a cassette player in it.

As far as the clothes go, I see your point, but I don't think she packed a number of clothes that would suggest she was leaving forever. I saw enough to potentially be a weekend's worth of clothing...and a lot of it actually sounded like the contents of a gym bag.

I've thought about the possibility of huffing with the carpet stain remover. I'm not sure if that chemical compound has the same components that aerosol cans do, which is what makes you high when you inhale it. But it had crossed my mind.

I thought the sleeping pills were interesting, too. Of note, however, they were over the counter sleep aids. I'm not sure how much damage they could cause if you ingested them.

I didn't think too much of the food items, although I wryly joked to myself she may have been pregnant based on the strange combo of licorice, pickles, and diet soda. :) I usually have a Diet Pepsi and some form of snack food in my car.

The picture of her brother stuck out to me, too. If I remember correctly, she was close with her brother. I don't remember about the rest of the family.

the items found in the car seem very ordinary (except for the booze) to me and only show that MM was somewhat sloppy. even the picture of the brother proves nothing. she may have got in in the mail and picked up the mail on the way to the car and it never left the car. nothing bloody was found in the car, no directions to any place in new Hampshire... mostly just disposable items half of which she probably didn't realize was in there.

of course it was VERY surprising. it was the only instance where Renner was almost physically accosted

No, it was not. Every time Renner comes into contact with someone to the case, be it a friend or a relative, he literally has the door shut in his face. Maura's friends and family have closed up ranks because they continue to want to drum up the world's sympathy and have people believe that Maura was some poor, innocent, perfect person who was taken by a bogeyman, when they reality is that Maura was engaging in various forms of criminal activity herself and most likely caused her own disappearance. Therefore, it's not hard to believe he was thrown out of the gas station too. People don't want this case to be investigated and the truth learned.

half of which she probably didn't realize was in there

I find it hard to believe she didn't know what was in her car.


the items found in the car seem very ordinary

I don't know of anyone else in the world that keeps carpet stain remover in their car, nor do I know anyone who takes several packs of sleeping pills and an empty box of sleeping pills for what was presumably going to be just a day or two off.

I don't get why some of these people are hiding things. Even the cop who let her off with a warning and no sobriety test when she crashed her dad's car. When questioned this by Renner, he basically hung up. What is he hiding? What are her friends motivation for possibly withholding info? Even if they did indeed help her to go into hiding, so what? they didn't do anything illegal. I can't imagine that two girls, who were college aged when it happened and are now around 30, could also keep a secret like this (assuming they did assist her and know where she is) without blabbing to SOMEONE. This isn't the mob. These are normal people, and generally normal people end up talking.

Also lets say she has been in hiding since 2004. If she just came home now, is there actually any serious crime that she would be arrested for and go to trial for? As far as I know, the credit card thing was small potatoes. We don't know if she hit Vasi or not...its all speculation. The cops have previously let her go for prior fender benders/alcohol incidents. Would she get charged for leaving the scene of an accident? I guess, but I dont think thats anything more then a misdemeanor. So what is the motivation for her to be in hiding this long? It's not like she is a wanted fugitive Brad Bishop/Whitey Bulger style.

This is why I tend to lean SLIGHTLY towards the suicide or murder route. I don't think she is savvy, street smart, and crafty enough to arrange all this at the age of 21 (while reportedly not in a good frame of mind), and be able to find somewhere to live and essentially fend for herself her entire life. This isn't some hardened criminal with access to major money w/deep connections. She is a normal colleged aged girl. I think of myself at 21, and I don't believe I could have run off on my own to start a new life without alot of help from trusted friends/family friends. Both financially, psychologically and emotionally.

I am definitely not ruling out the "ran away to start a new life" theory. It's plausible. The more I get into Renner's blog and the podcasts I might change my mind a bit. I definitely am baffled by the amount of shadiness shown by almost every party involved...whether its the cops, friends and Maura's family. They all seem to be hiding info. Renner seems to be the only one involved in any aspect of the case that's straight forward.

I don't get why some of these people are hiding things. Even the cop who let her off with a warning and no sobriety test when she crashed her dad's car. When questioned this by Renner, he basically hung up. What is he hiding? What are her friends motivation for possibly withholding info? Even if they did indeed help her to go into hiding, so what? they didn't do anything illegal. I can't imagine that two girls, who were college aged when it happened and are now around 30, could also keep a secret like this (assuming they did assist her and know where she is) without blabbing to SOMEONE. This isn't the mob. These are normal people, and generally normal people end up talking.

Also lets say she has been in hiding since 2004. If she just came home now, is there actually any serious crime that she would be arrested for and go to trial for? As far as I know, the credit card thing was small potatoes. We don't know if she hit Vasi or not...its all speculation. The cops have previously let her go for prior fender benders/alcohol incidents. Would she get charged for leaving the scene of an accident? I guess, but I dont think thats anything more then a misdemeanor. So what is the motivation for her to be in hiding this long? It's not like she is a wanted fugitive Brad Bishop/Whitey Bulger style.

Some interesting stuff there. I'll have to research the previous accidents since that's one area of the case I don't know much info on.

I think a large component of why she voluntarily disappeared is that she wanted a fresh start. I think this is common in people who vanish on their own accord. I don't know much about the legalities of her actions, especially since this happened in a different state from which I live. But she made some pretty bad mistakes. The stealing, the alcohol related accidents, having to leave West Point, etc. I think she wanted to hit the "redo" button.

I suppose she could come back, but she chooses to remain hidden because it wouldn't look good for her to return. Considering that the public wouldn't be too keen knowing that she caused vast amounts of resources to be wasted looking for her, and that they would have the knowledge she's a thief, alcoholic and a liar, among other things, and the possibility she nearly killed someone and put them in a coma, I can't see her coming back to face that.

This is why I tend to lean SLIGHTLY towards the suicide or murder route. I don't think she is savvy, street smart, and crafty enough to arrange all this at the age of 21 (while reportedly not in a good frame of mind), and be able to find somewhere to live and essentially fend for herself her entire life. This isn't some hardened criminal with access to major money w/deep connections. She is a normal colleged aged girl. I think of myself at 21, and I don't believe I could have run off on my own to start a new life without alot of help from trusted friends/family friends. Both financially, psychologically and emotionally.

I think one of the biggest (of many) reasons I believe she voluntarily disappeared was that she had a history of not facing up to her own faults. She quit West Point because she didn't want to deal with the results of her stealing, etc. I believe that's what happened here too. She didn't want to deal with the consequences of her wrong actions, life got too complicated for her and she started a new one. Her tendency to lie is another big component. I wouldn't be surprised if that last accident was staged and she intended to fool people into thinking something else happened to her.

If she did stage the accident...obviously she had to have received help to get out of the area and then go where ever she went to next (the guess from most people seems to be Canada).

Where did the help come from? Was it Fred? was it Kate and Sara? or was it really just random strangers she hitched rides with? If it was Fred, I cant imagine he would agree to this. Obviously we dont know the ins and outs of their relationship. It seems to be hinted that it may not have been great. Even still, I can't picture a father willingly assisting her daughter to vanish and start a new life. I just can't do it. Kate and Sara? I suppose Maura could have solicited help from them. I have a hard time believing three 21 year old girls could have created this good of a plan, pulled it off, and 11 years later continue on with the ruse. I feel like adults who are smarter and have more life experience would even have a hard time doing it. I also think these two girls would have spilled the beans eventually...whether its to their family or friends.

Sherlock Holmes always used to say "if you remove all logical possibilities then whatever remains must be the truth". So I am not ruling it out. And I fully admit the amount of evasiveness and lying from certain parties involved does make you think cover-up/conspiracy. I think the most likely outcomes is 1) was her wanting to get away for a short period of time, getting into an accident, having some kind of emotional/mental breakdown, and wandering off. She either succumbed to elements or ran into the wrong person/people who killed her. Or 2) she staged the accident, somehow left the area, and then committed suicide in an unknown place.

I know the areas around the accident have been searched repeatedly. How often though do we hear about places being searched, nothing found, then sometimes decades later someone does find remains?

If she did stage the accident...obviously she had to have received help to get out of the area and then go where ever she went to next (the guess from most people seems to be Canada).

Where did the help come from? Was it Fred? was it Kate and Sara? or was it really just random strangers she hitched rides with? If it was Fred, I cant imagine he would agree to this. Obviously we dont know the ins and outs of their relationship. It seems to be hinted that it may not have been great. Even still, I can't picture a father willingly assisting her daughter to vanish and start a new life. I just can't do it. Kate and Sara? I suppose Maura could have solicited help from them. I have a hard time believing three 21 year old girls could have created this good of a plan, pulled it off, and 11 years later continue on with the ruse. I feel like adults who are smarter and have more life experience would even have a hard time doing it. I also think these two girls would have spilled the beans eventually...whether its to their family or friends.

I don't believe Fred was involved initially, but rather was told about it by Kate and Sara afterward and has kept it to himself since then.

I do believe it was Kate and Sara, mainly because of the sighting at the gas station. Granted, eyewitness sightings are suspect at best much of the time, but considering there were 3 people involved in this, and that she had a specific piece of info that 2 of the licenses were Massachusetts licenses, and the third was NY or CT (Kate may have ties to NY), that seems to make it more credible than most.

Wow so I wasn't the only one rocking a led Zeppelin tape in 2004. I guess I am the same age as Maura. I agree with the others on here about the tapes. i didn't have a CD player in my car until 2005. I sort of skipped the cd in my car era.. I hate CDs anyway.

Back on topic...I've never listened to this Renner person but it appears they have a lot of information on this case. At what point is it for personal gain? Or is it legit?

I think if she was arrested for the first accident this may have not happened. Or at least she would have been held accountable for something. But as you all have pointed out She appeared to have problems beyond just drinking and driving. I never knew about the credit card fraud. She may have just been too far gone to be saved from herself. She appeared to have a lot of problems that people covered up.

James Renner is an investigative journalist. He seems completely legit, and I believe he just wants to find out the truth. Here is his blog if you want to check it out and get more in depth into the case. It's by far the most in-depth information on the case you will find anywhere.

http://mauramurray.blogspot.ca/

I don't believe Fred was involved initially, but rather was told about it by Kate and Sara afterward and has kept it to himself since then.

I do believe it was Kate and Sara, mainly because of the sighting at the gas station. Granted, eyewitness sightings are suspect at best much of the time, but considering there were 3 people involved in this, and that she had a specific piece of info that 2 of the licenses were Massachusetts licenses, and the third was NY or CT (Kate may have ties to NY), that seems to make it more credible than most.


It's possible that they could be involved to that extent. It makes you wonder what their motivation was to help her. If a good friend came to me and said "hey my life sucks, I need to get away and start a new life. Will you help me do that? I'm going to stage an accident and then you guys drive me to Canada. By the way, you will never see me again and you have to swear to keep it a secret for the rest of your life", I dont think I would have just said "yes" and went along with it.

I also think they wouldn't be able to keep the secret this long. They would have let it slip by now. I also don't think Maura could have successfully made it on her own for 11 years without any help, and any contact with family.

I know people gravitate towards conspiracies in general....usually the most simple theory is the one that ends up being true. I think she died somewhere in the woods.

It's possible that they could be involved to that extent. It makes you wonder what their motivation was to help her. If a good friend came to me and said "hey my life sucks, I need to get away and start a new life. Will you help me do that? I'm going to stage an accident and then you guys drive me to Canada. By the way, you will never see me again and you have to swear to keep it a secret for the rest of your life", I dont think I would have just said "yes" and went along with it.

I also think they wouldn't be able to keep the secret this long. They would have let it slip by now. I also don't think Maura could have successfully made it on her own for 11 years without any help, and any contact with family.

I know people gravitate towards conspiracies in general....usually the most simple theory is the one that ends up being true. I think she died somewhere in the woods.

I don't know that Maura is having contact with her family and friends every single day. I could believe that the contact is much more sporadic, occasionally checking in. Since some of the theories about her voluntarily disappearing involve wanting to get away from her father, I could see if she mostly or completely shuts him out.

I think it's likely Maura hooked up with someone that wasn't her boyfriend. She was cheating on him, by the sounds of it, with the entire track team including the coach. She could have found a sugar daddy and wouldn't have needed to work. It's also important to note that the $4,000 Fred withdrew from his bank accounts shortly before her disappearance has never been accounted for. He says it was to buy her a car. She never got a new car. Plus, the several hundred dollars she withdrew from her on account, effectively clearing it out. Granted, it's not an unlimited amount of money, but $4,300 is a pretty decent start.

I don't believe she went into the woods because there were no tracks leading to there. There is too much general weirdness, criminal activity, lying and evasiveness coming from the Murrays and Maura's friends for me not to believe she vanished on her own accord.

how interesting. Check this out:

http://mauramurray.blogspot.com/2012/02/does-mauras-cousin-know-true-story-of.html

That was from nearly 4 years ago. I'm willing to bet it's true. It actually contains elements of things I thought were true in the case and have posted about. The one thing I got wrong was who helped her get away. She had met a new boyfriend. That was something I had not thought of though, her relationship with Bill Rausch dissolved in part because she didn't want to be reminded of West Point, a place where she was asked to leave.

This is also another source that says Fred Murray was physically abusive. I also find it highly disturbing Fred was more concerned about losing his bragging rights to having two daughters in West Point that the health of Petrit Vasi, or Maura's stealing, her victims or anything else. But Fred is a sociopath, just like Maura. Neither of them care about the misery they put other people through, they just care about their own self-image.

I strongly feel that there should be more effort to find Maura, but not in New Hampshire and not as a corpse. She should be looked for in Quebec as a fugitive, because that is what she is. I don't know the specifics of the legalities in Mass, but she hit and ran and left someone for dead. The guy was put in a coma and won't ever be the same. She should pay for that and doesn't have the right to live the high life somewhere else.

One random comment about the sleeping pills in the car.

It was an over the counter sleep aid called "Simply Sleep." I've purchased this product in the past and think the inventory may lead us to believe she had more pills than she did.

The inventory stated that there was an empty box of "Simply Sleep" and then some packages of "Simply Sleep" sleeping pills. If you've purchased that product, it's packaged very similarly to someting like Sudafed or Dayquil-- the capsules are in blister packs and there are usually several of those to a box (depending on the size, usually two or three.)

As I read the inventory, it sounds to me like she had close to ONE full box of OTC sleeping pills, as the blister packs were listed separate from the empty box.

I don't think it means anything, but I thought I'd throw that out there. If she intended to kill herself hyped up on booze and sleeping pills, I would assume the police inventory would list "empty blister packages" as opposed to "Simply Sleep" sleeping pill package. Look at how they listed the birth control: 4 pills missing. I'm assuming they would have done the same had the sleeping pills been taken from the packaging.

James Renner said on Christmas Eve:

"I believe in 2016 that we will finally see closure to this case, one way or another."

I hope he's right. For him to make a statement like that, I guess it has something to do with the confidential information he gave to police a month ago from his investigation.

Maura Murray is alive. I'm willing to bet significant money on it.

The Maura Murray fan club over at Renner's blog is truly mind-boggling. I can never get past how this lady has everybody snowed. As you may have seen me post before, Renner is really all over the place in his beliefs. Some days he's supportive of Maura, other days he's accusatory. Some days he believes she met with foul play, others he's certain she vanished on her own accord. He even went the suicide angle once, projecting that UMass was 'too harsh' because their guidelines were going to get Maura kicked out of the nursing program, which may have led to her suicide, which would mean UMass is responsible for that. It's truly one of the most outrageous things I've ever read, for various reasons. Perhaps UMass wanted to kick Maura out of the nursing program because patients typically don't like to have thieves as their nurses.

And then you have the readers. I was reading one comment recently about how someone noticed that Maura used a coupon on one order she placed with the stolen credit card and had the chutzpah to state "At least she was somewhat respectful of other people's money." MY GOD!! She STOLE someone's credit card for Cripe's sake! Respectful of other people's money? She crashed her father's new car after a night of drinking and driving. And oh, by the way, I also read that all of Maura's friends convinced her not to go out that night as the car didn't even need to be returned that night anyways. Maura agreed, then promptly left anyways, so that's another thing she LIED about. Like most other people involved in this case, the police officer, upon being questioned about why Maura didn't get a DUI that night, hung up the phone.

Anyways, back to my point about the nursing program. Yes, there is a chance Maura wouldn't have faced enormous legal difficulties if she got a DUI (I read they were going to charge her with one, although it seems they would have done that right away. She was given a ticket for "Inattentive Driving" or something like that (Not sure on the wording). Yes, there is a chance Maura may not have been expelled from UMass altogether. But I think there was a very high probability she was going to be kicked out of the nursing program because, as I alluded to before, people don't want to trust their health and well-being to a known thief and liar.

So when you take into account Maura was almost 22, spent time in 2 higher learning places but wouldn't have had as much to show from it since she was kicked out of various things, drove drunk and caused 3 car accidents in a single week, nearly killed a man, is a compulsive thief and pathological liar and a known alcoholic. Could you see how someone would want to get away from all that? Hit the restart button?

She packed up all her belongings, emptied her savings account and obtained $4,000 from Fred Murray that has never been accounted for. There was no footprints or scent that indicated she ran off into the woods.

Right now, Maura is probably laughing and having a good time. Perhaps she enjoys knowing that most other people don't know the truth about her. Or perhaps she doesn't even care.

And I can't stress this enough: Maura lies. A lot. And covers up her lies with more lies. Her whole reason for even getting away in the first place is unknown because we know what she told people (death in the family) is a LIE. And yet, a high percentage of Renner's followers conveniently gloss over all of the lying, the stealing, the drinking and everything else and think she met some random bogeyman in a very narrow time frame in an desolated area in a very low crime region, despite the lack of a struggle, crime scene, blood, eyewitnesses or anything that would point to foul play.

Unbelievable.

Could a 21 year old, who was proven to have few life skills and not be the most intelligent person, really just take $4,000 up to Canada and successfully hide out and also find a place to live/steady job without legal documentation?

I am not surprised that someone like Brad Bishop could remain a fugitive for so many years based on his intelligence and life experience. I am not surprised Whitey Bulger remained at large for as long as he did, due to his mob connections and money.

How did/is Maura doing this, if she is indeed still alive? Also why have the police not labeled her as a fugitive from the law if she did hit Vasi? As far as I know, she is still labeled a missing person.

Could a 21 year old, who was proven to have few life skills and not be the most intelligent person, really just take $4,000 up to Canada and successfully hide out and also find a place to live/steady job without legal documentation?

I am not surprised that someone like Brad Bishop could remain a fugitive for so many years based on his intelligence and life experience. I am not surprised Whitey Bulger remained at large for as long as he did, due to his mob connections and money.

How did/is Maura doing this, if she is indeed still alive? Also why have the police not labeled her as a fugitive from the law if she did hit Vasi? As far as I know, she is still labeled a missing person.Look up Jason Derek Brown. The fact that he hasn't been found yet despite everything revealed about him is nothing short of amazing. He probably only benefits from the fact that he doesn't stick out in a crowd at all because with his habits and personality he should have been caught long before now.

Considering Maura is not actively being searched for and hasn't done anything on the level of that criminal, I can easily imagine her hiding out and not being found.

I don't know what to think about this case, but Wiseguy and others have brought up good points to lead to her being alive. It simply can't be ruled out as a theory.

As far as moving to Canada, I will say this: If Maura applied as a student or something and eventually got a Social Insurance Number (Canada's Social Security Number) as landed-immigrant status, she could legitimately work under her own name. Since there are no arrests warrants for her, even if Canada Revenue Agency knew she was living/working in Canada, they couldn't legally divulge any information about her. Another thing to note (I don't know if this is true in the USA or other countries) but in Canada you can "go by" whatever name you want providing your employer and your tax returns show your real name. So for example, Maura could be living in Canada, working, and while her employer would have her registered as "Maura" she could tell everyone that she goes by "Christine" and it would just be commonplace for everyone to address her as this. No one would know about the "Maura" name. It's only a big deal if you MAKE it a big deal, which obvious Maura wouldn't. So that could be a reason she hasn't be located, because she is just living her life under her own credentials and no one is unaccepting of that.

Years ago I had a "friend" who worked for a cheque cashing place. You could literally type in anyone's name and search across the country to see if they had cashed a cheque. This place (90% of the time) had pictures on the customers on file so they could verify it was the right person (when you pulled up their name, up came the picture and their cheque cashing history). This would a GREAT way for people looking for Maura, or any PI really, to see if there has been any activity. Many people that want to disappear are not going to open a bank account, so they go to a cheque cashing place to minimize the paper trail, and sometimes it's because they don't have proper ID. I can think of several people who have been in the cheque cashing system over the years that are well known, like a girl You Oughta Know, a loser Canadian killer who took his name after a Suzanne Vega song, and a couple of kids from Degrassi :) So...people should find friends who work at cheque cashing places and start doing name searches! Maura might just show up!

You both bring up interesting points. I guess there is always a different way to try to search for her....charge her in the hit and run of Vasi and she would then be listed as a fugitive. They could get in touch with the RCMP and begin an active wanted search based on whatever tips they have.

Wiseguy seems convinced that she did hit Vasi. If thats the case, then the police should charge her and search for her. The fact that they havent, just leads me to believe she didnt do it (or they at least don't have the evidence needed to make the charges stick). This IMO would also give her less reason to want to just disappear.

Also why have the police not labeled her as a fugitive from the law if she did hit Vasi? As far as I know, she is still labeled a missing person.

The possibility that she could have struck Vasi in a hit and run has never been anything more than speculation. She has never been mentioned by police as being a suspect. Her car, which has been in custody the last 11 years, was only investigated in regards to her disappearance, not any other possible hit and run. She can't be labeled a fugitive from the law because she was never charged (or even investigated) in the Vasi case. If the police even thought of investigating her as a possible connection to Vasi, they would have told the public long ago that she was wanted for questioning. They never did that. Short of her being found and admitting she did it, there will never be anything to conclusively tie her to the case and prove that she did it. There were no witnesses (at least no witnesses that have spoken up in the past decade) and Vasi himself was so drunk he had no memory of leaving his friend's house that night, the walk down the street and the accident itself. Even if Maura resurfaced tomorrow in Massachusetts, there would be no evidence to arrest her for this crime.

On the surface, it seems like a decent theory but I think it's nothing more than a coincidence. The accident happened during Maura's shift working the security desk at the dorm. Her supervisor has already gone on record as saying she didn't think it was possible Maura could have been responsible because she would have gotten caught leaving her post. The supervisors are always checking up on the receptionists. Had she left, her key card would have been deactivated to the dorm and she would have been locked out of the building waiting for someone to let her in. It would have been a five minute walk to the student parking lot to retrieve her car and a five minute walk back. The odds of her not getting caught leaving her job and running Vasi over are just not that good, if her supervisor is to be believed and I can't see any reason as to why she would lie.

While I don't believe she ran Vasi over, I still do not trust Fred Murray, Kate Markopoulos and Sarah Alfierei. They know something that they refuse to tell investigators. True loved ones of a missing person would not tell half stories like they did, not talk to police for two years, continue to insist that the days leading up to her disappearance make no difference in the case and have a set of rules for the media in regards to what questions an interviewer is allowed and not allowed to ask them. That is not normal behavior...it's just not. What they're covering up and why they continue to do it, I don't know.

Could a 21 year old, who was proven to have few life skills and not be the most intelligent person, really just take $4,000 up to Canada and successfully hide out and also find a place to live/steady job without legal documentation?

How did/is Maura doing this, if she is indeed still alive? Also why have the police not labeled her as a fugitive from the law if she did hit Vasi? As far as I know, she is still labeled a missing person.

No offense to anyone, but at times, I feel Maura's supporters try to have it both ways in regards to her being intelligent. They're quick to point out she was a "straight-A student" to try and paint her in a good light, but quickly try to debunk the 'vanished on her own accord' theory by saying she wasn't street smart. Was she intelligent or wasn't she? I also don't think it would be too difficult for anyone to get picked up by their new partner, ride into Canada and keep a low profile. If the new boyfriend is rich, she may not even need to work. How much street smarts does that require? Plus, the $4,300 she took up there isn't exactly small change.

But more important than that even, is the history of Maura's actions. She has a history of running away before her problems (that she created) can blow up in her face. She left West Point because she didn't want to face the music when she got caught stealing. She did the same thing with UMass. She did the same thing in regards to all her drunk accidents that weekend. She leaves before she can get into hot water. There's also that interesting tidbit I mentioned earlier that she once cut class in high school and took a train to Boston. She has a history of spontaneous actions that involve traveling. She also has a history of lying. This cannot be underestimated or forgotten. She's a pathological liar.

I have no idea why LE hasn't even so much investigated Maura as possibly being involved on the hit and run on Vasi. But then again, I have no idea how she avoided a DUI when she crashed Fred's car. Was she flashing leg to the police officers?

The possibility that she could have struck Vasi in a hit and run has never been anything more than speculation. She has never been mentioned by police as being a suspect. Her car, which has been in custody the last 11 years, was only investigated in regards to her disappearance, not any other possible hit and run. She can't be labeled a fugitive from the law because she was never charged (or even investigated) in the Vasi case. If the police even thought of investigating her as a possible connection to Vasi, they would have told the public long ago that she was wanted for questioning. They never did that. Short of her being found and admitting she did it, there will never be anything to conclusively tie her to the case and prove that she did it. There were no witnesses (at least no witnesses that have spoken up in the past decade) and Vasi himself was so drunk he had no memory of leaving his friend's house that night, the walk down the street and the accident itself. Even if Maura resurfaced tomorrow in Massachusetts, there would be no evidence to arrest her for this crime.

On the surface, it seems like a decent theory but I think it's nothing more than a coincidence. The accident happened during Maura's shift working the security desk at the dorm. Her supervisor has already gone on record as saying she didn't think it was possible Maura could have been responsible because she would have gotten caught leaving her post. The supervisors are always checking up on the receptionists. Had she left, her key card would have been deactivated to the dorm and she would have been locked out of the building waiting for someone to let her in. It would have been a five minute walk to the student parking lot to retrieve her car and a five minute walk back. The odds of her not getting caught leaving her job and running Vasi over are just not that good, if her supervisor is to be believed and I can't see any reason as to why she would lie.

All of that may be true. But...

-Maura would have almost certainly been afforded a break/lunch period. Most employers allow their employees to leave the building during these times. It seems Maura must have had some way to get out of the building and back in as I really can't see her being confined to the building. Vasi is struck and not too long after that, Maura has a breakdown at work. The only words she says are "My sister, my sister", but her sister has no idea what would cause her to be traumatized like that and still doesn't. Yes, at present, there is no direct evidence Maura struck Vasi, but I think it's one of those cases where a person has to connect the dots, as it were.

Saw this case for the first time this week and it had all the hallmarks of a great U.M case.

No offense to anyone, but at times, I feel Maura's supporters try to have it both ways in regards to her being intelligent. They're quick to point out she was a "straight-A student" to try and paint her in a good light, but quickly try to debunk the 'vanished on her own accord' theory by saying she wasn't street smart. Was she intelligent or wasn't she? I also don't think it would be too difficult for anyone to get picked up by their new partner, ride into Canada and keep a low profile. If the new boyfriend is rich, she may not even need to work. How much street smarts does that require? Plus, the $4,300 she took up there isn't exactly small change.

But more important than that even, is the history of Maura's actions. She has a history of running away before her problems (that she created) can blow up in her face. She left West Point because she didn't want to face the music when she got caught stealing. She did the same thing with UMass. She did the same thing in regards to all her drunk accidents that weekend. She leaves before she can get into hot water. There's also that interesting tidbit I mentioned earlier that she once cut class in high school and took a train to Boston. She has a history of spontaneous actions that involve traveling. She also has a history of lying. This cannot be underestimated or forgotten. She's a pathological liar.

I have no idea why LE hasn't even so much investigated Maura as possibly being involved on the hit and run on Vasi. But then again, I have no idea how she avoided a DUI when she crashed Fred's car. Was she flashing leg to the police officers?

I wouldn't say I'm a Maura "supporter" or a "hater". I am just fascinated by the case and trying to look at all angles. I have no idea what happened just like all of us. I constantly go in circles about what happened. I have no idea if Maura is smart or not. I am just speculating. A person in her position IMO doesn't seem like the type of person who could concoct this elaborate plan to vanish, and 11 years later still be in hiding. It's possible but I just have my doubts. It happens alot that a person dissapears and we get constant eyewitnesses accounts of seeing them in different places, and it turns out the person died shortly after actually dissapearing. I just think her committing suicide is the more likely scenario, but I am not ruling anything out.

Do we know if anyone ever asked the police why she was let off without a DUI on that crash? do we know if anyone ever asked them if they investigated Maura to see if she was involved in the Vasi incident?

The possibility that she could have struck Vasi in a hit and run has never been anything more than speculation. She has never been mentioned by police as being a suspect. Her car, which has been in custody the last 11 years, was only investigated in regards to her disappearance, not any other possible hit and run. She can't be labeled a fugitive from the law because she was never charged (or even investigated) in the Vasi case. If the police even thought of investigating her as a possible connection to Vasi, they would have told the public long ago that she was wanted for questioning. They never did that. Short of her being found and admitting she did it, there will never be anything to conclusively tie her to the case and prove that she did it. There were no witnesses (at least no witnesses that have spoken up in the past decade) and Vasi himself was so drunk he had no memory of leaving his friend's house that night, the walk down the street and the accident itself. Even if Maura resurfaced tomorrow in Massachusetts, there would be no evidence to arrest her for this crime.

On the surface, it seems like a decent theory but I think it's nothing more than a coincidence. The accident happened during Maura's shift working the security desk at the dorm. Her supervisor has already gone on record as saying she didn't think it was possible Maura could have been responsible because she would have gotten caught leaving her post. The supervisors are always checking up on the receptionists. Had she left, her key card would have been deactivated to the dorm and she would have been locked out of the building waiting for someone to let her in. It would have been a five minute walk to the student parking lot to retrieve her car and a five minute walk back. The odds of her not getting caught leaving her job and running Vasi over are just not that good, if her supervisor is to be believed and I can't see any reason as to why she would lie.

While I don't believe she ran Vasi over, I still do not trust Fred Murray, Kate Markopoulos and Sarah Alfierei. They know something that they refuse to tell investigators. True loved ones of a missing person would not tell half stories like they did, not talk to police for two years, continue to insist that the days leading up to her disappearance make no difference in the case and have a set of rules for the media in regards to what questions an interviewer is allowed and not allowed to ask them. That is not normal behavior...it's just not. What they're covering up and why they continue to do it, I don't know.

I agree that this behavior is weird. In fact, the behavior of these three might be the most interesting part of the case for me. The answer to everything we want to know likely is with whatever information they are hiding and refusing to share. So what could they possibly be hiding?. The one thing that jumps to mind is that they know for a fact she did hit Vasi, and they know by saying something it implicates her in a crime. This in turn would then mean they know she is alive somewhere, so they are trying to protect her. You have to wonder what else could be so bad enough for them to hide, lie and evade like they have been doing? If she just ran off on her own to start a new life....ok, so what? There is no crime in that. They could just come out and say "yeah Maura just needed to and wanted to go somewhere to start over. We know where she went but rather not say in order to let her live her life", everyone would say ok, and that would be the end of it. The police aren't going to go on some manhunt over $250 of stolen credit card charges, however they would if they know she ran down Vasi.

I guess this is the angle that makes me lean towards the willful disappearance theory.

All of that may be true. But...

-Maura would have almost certainly been afforded a break/lunch period. Most employers allow their employees to leave the building during these times. It seems Maura must have had some way to get out of the building and back in as I really can't see her being confined to the building. Vasi is struck and not too long after that, Maura has a breakdown at work. The only words she says are "My sister, my sister", but her sister has no idea what would cause her to be traumatized like that and still doesn't. Yes, at present, there is no direct evidence Maura struck Vasi, but I think it's one of those cases where a person has to connect the dots, as it were.

I would probably try harder to connect the dots to the hit and run IF the supervisors did not have such a tight grip on monitoring the desk workers at the dorms and IF Maura had a history of driving off across town during her breaks.

Karen Mayotte, Maura's supervisor, would have mentioned these facts to both the police and James Renner if they were possible and she did not. Heck, they would have been the first things out of her mouth if they were even a possibility. Maura's shift was from 7:00 p.m. to 1:45 a.m. Someone on Renner's blog mentioned the workers getting 15 minute breaks. I don't know if that's true or not but if it was, just getting and leaving her car would take up 10 of the 15 minutes of her break. By that logic, driving anywhere would seem rather pointless. But logic would also dictate that someone would have to fill in for Maura while she took her breaks because students would still have to be monitored upon entering the dorm while she was gone. This would also be another factor mentioned by Karen and she never brought it up.

I'm not completely sold on the possibility because a dozen things would have to fall perfectly into place for her to pull all this off undetected. As such, we have Vasi leaving his friend's house at midnight (according to the friend), police arriving at 12:20 to find him laid out on the street, and Maura having her breakdown nearly an hour later at 1:00. Her breakdown could have been attributed to...anything. Her life wasn't exactly going very well lately up to that point.

I agree that this behavior is weird. In fact, the behavior of these three might be the most interesting part of the case for me. The answer to everything we want to know likely is with whatever information they are hiding and refusing to share. So what could they possibly be hiding?. The one thing that jumps to mind is that they know for a fact she did hit Vasi, and they know by saying something it implicates her in a crime. This in turn would then mean they know she is alive somewhere, so they are trying to protect her. You have to wonder what else could be so bad enough for them to hide, lie and evade like they have been doing? If she just ran off on her own to start a new life....ok, so what? There is no crime in that. They could just come out and say "yeah Maura just needed to and wanted to go somewhere to start over. We know where she went but rather not say in order to let her live her life", everyone would say ok, and that would be the end of it. The police aren't going to go on some manhunt over $250 of stolen credit card charges, however they would if they know she ran down Vasi.

I guess this is the angle that makes me lean towards the willful disappearance theory.

Every time I hear a story about those three, I grow more and more suspicious. Two weeks ago, Maura's boyfriend Billy sent James Renner a copy of his cell phone bill from the day before and the few days after Maura's disappearance. The first thing that jumped out at me when I looked at it was a 7 minute phone call between Billy and Kate just 12 hours after Maura was last seen. Billy and the Murray family know Maura is missing at this point. But Kate claims to have found out Maura was missing not until a full week later from members of the UMass track team. That makes no sense.

What would they be talking about during those seven minutes other than Maura being missing? The weather? I don't think so. Also suspicious was that this phone call took place while Kate herself was also missing. She disappeared the same time as Maura did but eventually resurfaced after a couple days. Isn't this documented proof that Kate lied?

Ugh. This case has fascinated me since I first heard about it but when you REALLY try to connect the dots of WHEN, WHY, and especially HOW...it can make you want to pull your hair out.

Every time I hear a story about those three, I grow more and more suspicious. Two weeks ago, Maura's boyfriend Billy sent James Renner a copy of his cell phone bill from the day before and the few days after Maura's disappearance. The first thing that jumped out at me when I looked at it was a 7 minute phone call between Billy and Kate just 12 hours after Maura was last seen. Billy and the Murray family know Maura is missing at this point. But Kate claims to have found out Maura was missing not until a full week later from members of the UMass track team. That makes no sense.

What would they be talking about during those seven minutes other than Maura being missing? The weather? I don't think so. Also suspicious was that this phone call took place while Kate herself was also missing. She disappeared the same time as Maura did but eventually resurfaced after a couple days. Isn't this documented proof that Kate lied?

Ugh. This case has fascinated me since I first heard about it but when you REALLY try to connect the dots of WHEN, WHY, and especially HOW...it can make you want to pull your hair out.

Hmmm, very interesting. I just started really getting into this case so I admittedly don't know a lot of the little things you and others probably know, such as the bit of info you shared about Billy's phone bill.

I dont know. As you said, trying to connect the dots is maddening. I keep going in circles with my theories. I think the only thing I'm sure of is that Kate, Sara and Fred are hiding information. I think they know exactly what happened to Maura, whatever that might be. Again, I tend to think for them to be this paranoid, secretive and attempting to jump thru so many hoops in order to evade any kind of questions about Maura....it makes me think whatever they are hiding is something VERY bad in order to protect Maura. Bad as in Maura did something or knows something that could get her into huge trouble with the law. This of course would mean she is still alive somewhere. I can't imagine they would be going to these amount of lengths to be evasive if it is something as simple as her hating her life, and wanting to go somewhere to start over. Even if they knew she committed suicide or froze to death out in the woods, I don't think they would be covering things up to this extent.

I dont know. As you said, trying to connect the dots is maddening. I keep going in circles with my theories. I think the only thing I'm sure of is that Kate, Sara and Fred are hiding information. I think they know exactly what happened to Maura, whatever that might be. Again, I tend to think for them to be this paranoid, secretive and attempting to jump thru so many hoops in order to evade any kind of questions about Maura....it makes me think whatever they are hiding is something VERY bad in order to protect Maura. Bad as in Maura did something or knows something that could get her into huge trouble with the law. This of course would mean she is still alive somewhere. I can't imagine they would be going to these amount of lengths to be evasive if it is something as simple as her hating her life, and wanting to go somewhere to start over. Even if they knew she committed suicide or froze to death out in the woods, I don't think they would be covering things up to this extent.

Exactly.

The only other thing I can think of is the theory that Maura got away partly because of Fred's abuse. I can't tell you how many things I've read and people that say he was an odd duck, and I don't use that term in a flattering manner. This would also support all of the evidence that Kate and Sara knew before Fred and informed him of what happened, and he has kept his mouth shut since then. Maura does what she wants, and Fred stays quiet because he doesn't want to be outed as someone who roughs up his daughter.

This may be completely unconnected to the case, but it certainly doesn't make it any less weird: Bill Rausch's sister reportedly committed suicide a few years ago. I say reportedly because it wasn't 100% confirmed, at least not at the time. I don't know anything else about her death other than that a note was found tucked into her waistband, but the contents have not been divulged. Maura was said to have been very close to Bill's family.

I never considered the abuse angle. Interesting. The one thing that draws me back away from the "she ran away due to fear of being prosecuted for the Vasi hit and run", is that I believe the statue of limitations long expired on it. He didn't die, so there is no crime like homicide or manslaughter that could be leveled against her decades later. It would be a leaving the scene of an accident charge, and a DWI charge in which she would lose her license.

Again though, its 11 years ago. Even if the cops had evidence she definitely him her, or if Maura walked into the Amherst police station, said she hit Vasi and showed a video of her doing so....they can't charge her.

Knowing thats the case, then why remain in hiding and why does everyone remain so secretive? So if you suscribe to any of the willful disappearance theories, It definitely leads some credence to abuse within the family. Or at the very least opens up the possibility of other unknown reasons being the cause of her running away.

I have been reading Renner's blog on this case and it is totally addicting!

I re-watched the Disappeared episode last night and have a couple of questions:

-There was a newspaper reporter who said she "spoke with a witness" who saw Maura right after the crash, and the witness noted that Maura did not appear overly distraught or disoriented. WHO was this witness? I thought the bus driver was the only one who saw Maura after the crash? (The reporter doesn't say if the "witness" is the bus driver or not, so I was extremely curious as I hadn't heard there was any other witness besides bus driver.)

-The spot where Maura had the car crash in Haverhill, NH....this was on highway 112, right? How busy is that particular stretch of road? On Disappeared, they said it was about a 19-minute window between bus driver sighting and cop arriving at scene. If this is a totally isolated stretch, makes me think the stranger abduction angle is a bit unlikely...but if this is a well-traveled highway, then anything could have happened.

-The Disappeared episode also mentioned a mysterious phone call (voicemail) that Maura's boyfriend received that sounded like crying, whimpering, etc. I hadn't heard the police mention this phone call at all -- is this phone call credible? How come we only hear about it from the bf? Did he keep the voicemail and take it to police? Is there a recording of it?

But more important than that even, is the history of Maura's actions. She has a history of running away before her problems (that she created) can blow up in her face. She left West Point because she didn't want to face the music when she got caught stealing. She did the same thing with UMass. She did the same thing in regards to all her drunk accidents that weekend. She leaves before she can get into hot water. There's also that interesting tidbit I mentioned earlier that she once cut class in high school and took a train to Boston. She has a history of spontaneous actions that involve traveling. She also has a history of lying. This cannot be underestimated or forgotten. She's a pathological liar.

After having re-watched the Disappeared episode again, I thought it was interesting that Maura did "take off" before in high school and didn't tell anyone where she was going.

Also, regarding the potential suicide angle -- I realize that Maura's problems were not that horrible compared to what a lot of other people go through (that is, if she did not hit Varsi), but Maura seemed like someone who had high standards for herself...also, her father obviously had high standards for her, and maybe she was a bit perfectionistic?

Perfectionists sometimes think that even the most mundane of issues are unbearable; maybe for a smart, attractive, talented athlete like Maura, the accumulation of the West Point issue, cheating boyfriend, credit card issue, overbearing father, etc. = "I just can't take it anymore?"

That being said, it does seem like the police actually DID do a thorough search of the woods after Maura went missing. How far could she have gotten into the woods???

-There was a newspaper reporter who said she "spoke with a witness" who saw Maura right after the crash, and the witness noted that Maura did not appear overly distraught or disoriented. WHO was this witness? I thought the bus driver was the only one who saw Maura after the crash? (The reporter doesn't say if the "witness" is the bus driver or not, so I was extremely curious as I hadn't heard there was any other witness besides bus driver.)

Good catch. If she wasn't overly distraught about wrecking a second car in three days, the odds go up even further that she staged the accident. I think I would be a nervous wreck even crashing *one* car

-The spot where Maura had the car crash in Haverhill, NH....this was on highway 112, right? How busy is that particular stretch of road? On Disappeared, they said it was about a 19-minute window between bus driver sighting and cop arriving at scene. If this is a totally isolated stretch, makes me think the stranger abduction angle is a bit unlikely...but if this is a well-traveled highway, then anything could have happened.

Renner keeps stating Maura was only alone for about 7 minutes and would have been in front of three houses (had she stayed put). Another thing that makes the odds of foul play go down drastically.

-The Disappeared episode also mentioned a mysterious phone call (voicemail) that Maura's boyfriend received that sounded like crying, whimpering, etc. I hadn't heard the police mention this phone call at all -- is this phone call credible? How come we only hear about it from the bf? Did he keep the voicemail and take it to police? Is there a recording of it?

I don't believe there is a recording of it that has survived.

-The spot where Maura had the car crash in Haverhill, NH....this was on highway 112, right? How busy is that particular stretch of road? On Disappeared, they said it was about a 19-minute window between bus driver sighting and cop arriving at scene. If this is a totally isolated stretch, makes me think the stranger abduction angle is a bit unlikely...but if this is a well-traveled highway, then anything could have happened.

It doesn't look like a very busy area and it is pretty secluded for the most part...

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a126/MauraMurray/_IGP03701.jpg

If you go on YouTube and look for the video titled 'Maura Murray's last known drive,' you'll see an interesting perspective. Someone taped a camera to the dashboard of their car and drove the exact route Maura drove, 5 miles all the way to the crash site. It's very secluded. It's pretty much just woods, woods and more woods. You pass no more than a dozen homes over those 5 miles.

I think she was more likely to be struck by lightening twice than to come across a serial killer out in the middle of nowhere like that. But on the flip side, if she was trying to stage a crash and make a planned getaway with another driver, she chose an incredibly stupid spot to "crash," in plain site and very close to two houses and a barn. Staging an accident and sneaking away would have been much easier 2-3 miles earlier, where no witnesses lived.

Thanks for that info. dynoguy! It does look like a fairly secluded area and not one where a lot of people (least of all, serial killers) would be driving by during the 7-to-19 minute window Maura was supposedly alone out there.

Just thought of another question:

If this was a staged disappearance and she was picked-up by someone she knew, wouldn't that have been kind of difficult to pull off for (among other reasons) the fact that there was no cell service there? I guess the other person could have just been following behind her, but the bus driver didn't report seeing anyone/a second car there....man this case is baffling!

But on the flip side, if she was trying to stage a crash and make a planned getaway with another driver, she chose an incredibly stupid spot to "crash," in plain site and very close to two houses and a barn. Staging an accident and sneaking away would have been much easier 2-3 miles earlier, where no witnesses lived.

I think the reason she chose that spot was because that particular spot was known to have previous, legitimate accidents. She knew she could crash the car and people would think nothing of it, at least not at first.

Ok I have another observation/theory:

After watching the "Maura Murray's Last Known Drive" video on YT, I noticed that it's somewhat secluded, not too busy, there are some houses around, etc.

But what I really noticed was how difficult it would be for a pedestrian to walk on the road if there's snow on the ground. With snow, there's zero shoulder to the road...could Maura herself been struck by a car that night after her accident? And instead of doing the right thing, the driver panics, throws her body in the car and takes off?

After having re-watched the Disappeared episode again, I thought it was interesting that Maura did "take off" before in high school and didn't tell anyone where she was going.

Also, regarding the potential suicide angle -- I realize that Maura's problems were not that horrible compared to what a lot of other people go through (that is, if she did not hit Varsi), but Maura seemed like someone who had high standards for herself...also, her father obviously had high standards for her, and maybe she was a bit perfectionistic?

Perfectionists sometimes think that even the most mundane of issues are unbearable; maybe for a smart, attractive, talented athlete like Maura, the accumulation of the West Point issue, cheating boyfriend, credit card issue, overbearing father, etc. = "I just can't take it anymore?"

That being said, it does seem like the police actually DID do a thorough search of the woods after Maura went missing. How far could she have gotten into the woods???

I think what gives the suicide theory some validity is that she did seem like an extremely unstable person...especially the last few months before the dissapearance. It seems like she was someone who really wasn't capable of handling her problems well. Maybe crashing her dad's car put her over the edge. Also even though the woods were searched, it doesn't mean she isnt still out there. How often do we hear stories of areas being searched for a missing person, nothing is found, yet years later someone finds remains. It happens quite often. She could have just made it to a deep area of the woods that was never searched, or it could have just been missed. Maybe animals got to her remains.

I put the suicide theory much higher then the kidnapping/abduction/murder theory. That one to me seems a bit far fetched based on the timeline and where this all happened. Suicide seems very possible to me. I also think its possible that she just wanted to get away temporarily, had the accident, had a mental breakdown and just wandered out into the woods where she succumbed to the elements.

The only thing I am 100% sure about in this case? That the answers as to what happened lies with Fred, Kate, Sara. They know.

Ok I have another observation/theory:

After watching the "Maura Murray's Last Known Drive" video on YT, I noticed that it's somewhat secluded, not too busy, there are some houses around, etc.

But what I really noticed was how difficult it would be for a pedestrian to walk on the road if there's snow on the ground. With snow, there's zero shoulder to the road...could Maura herself been struck by a car that night after her accident? And instead of doing the right thing, the driver panics, throws her body in the car and takes off?

As with the foul play scenario, I think there would be tire tracks, footprints etc. to indicate that.

I'll go in a different direction: When I was driving to work tonight, I noticed a jogger on the sidewalk. It was remarkable because it was dark outside and they were wearing all dark clothing, save for one faint light colored strip on the side of their pants. Since Maura may not have had reflective gear with her, it's possible if she did run away that she wouldn't be noticed due to it being dark and her clothing she was wearing at the time (a dark coat).

I think what gives the suicide theory some validity is that she did seem like an extremely unstable person...especially the last few months before the dissapearance. It seems like she was someone who really wasn't capable of handling her problems well. Maybe crashing her dad's car put her over the edge. Also even though the woods were searched, it doesn't mean she isnt still out there. How often do we hear stories of areas being searched for a missing person, nothing is found, yet years later someone finds remains. It happens quite often. She could have just made it to a deep area of the woods that was never searched, or it could have just been missed. Maybe animals got to her remains.

I see what you're saying. The thing is though, according to Fred, he goes up there every weekend and searches for Maura in the same general area. Granted, that could be lying/exaggerating on Fred's part, but it does seem Maura would have been found by now due to the high volume of searches.

When most people go missing, there's usually an initial search for them immediately after. Sometimes this is several days or weeks, but eventually the searches grind to a halt. There may be one or a few done sporadically after that, but not much. Given Fred's statement that he searches for her every weekend and that if animals got to her, her remains likely would have been scattered around, it seems like *something* would have surfaced by now. It's not definite, but I think it's highly probable.

I see what you're saying. The thing is though, according to Fred, he goes up there every weekend and searches for Maura in the same general area. Granted, that could be lying/exaggerating on Fred's part, but it does seem Maura would have been found by now due to the high volume of searches.

I did observe on the Disappeared ep that this is a case that, despite the fact that the police investigation seems to have been far from perfect, it does appear the area was VERY thoroughly searched over the years.

Of course, it's definitely possible she perished in the woods (either suicide or accident) and hasn't been found. Still, where were the footprints? If she ran into the woods, obviously she would have had to run through the snow...no footprints at all immediately after the crash makes me think the "ran into the woods" theory is extremely doubtful. In addition, I don't believe on a February night she could have sprinted far down the highway and then ran into the woods. Too many people would have seen her, or she would have been struck by a car or something.

From what we know, police did NOT observe any footprints going into the woods in the area near the accident site. For this reason alone I think Maura is not in those woods.

I did observe on the Disappeared ep that this is a case that, despite the fact that the police investigation seems to have been far from perfect, it does appear the area was VERY thoroughly searched over the years.

Of course, it's definitely possible she perished in the woods (either suicide or accident) and hasn't been found. Still, where were the footprints? If she ran into the woods, obviously she would have had to run through the snow...no footprints at all immediately after the crash makes me think the "ran into the woods" theory is extremely doubtful. In addition, I don't believe on a February night she could have sprinted far down the highway and then ran into the woods. Too many people would have seen her, or she would have been struck by a car or something.

From what we know, police did NOT observe any footprints going into the woods in the area near the accident site. For this reason alone I think Maura is not in those woods.

I agree 100%, and it's a huge part of why it baffles me so many people on Renner's blog think she ran off into the woods and died. Additionally, for anyone that's tried to run in the snow, it's slippery when it's on the road and difficult to trample through when it's on people's lawns (when it's high enough). The odds were too great that she would have fallen and hit her head or got exhausted very quickly (given the temps). The woods aren't any better as there are numerous trees, branches and things that stick out and can injure a person. Throw in the fact that it's nighttime, and I just can't see anyone running in those conditions. I know Maura had experience in running, but the conditions were just too hazardous.

WiseGuy,

Now that I think about it, Maura being the victim of a hit and run in that area does seem unlikely. The "no footprints" thing again rears its head, plus it just seems like such a short amount of time to haul a body into a car -- unseen by the several witnesses who lived close by -- and peel outta there before the cops arrived.

I have another theory:

What if Maura DID accept a ride from a non-serial-killer, and then later on she somehow became the victim of foul play? She could have accepted a ride from any sort of non-homicidal maniac, then been dropped-off somewhere else, and that's where things go horribly wrong. Or she could have gone back to someone's home, drinking ensues, someone puts the moves on Maura, Maura tries to fight back and THEN a "dirtbag" emerges.

I'm just thinking Maura was very likely picked-up, but the statistical improbability of a serial killer doesn't mean she wasn't the victim of foul play later on.

WiseGuy,

Now that I think about it, Maura being the victim of a hit and run in that area does seem unlikely. The "no footprints" thing again rears its head, plus it just seems like such a short amount of time to haul a body into a car -- unseen by the several witnesses who lived close by -- and peel outta there before the cops arrived.

I have another theory:

What if Maura DID accept a ride from a non-serial-killer, and then later on she somehow became the victim of foul play? She could have accepted a ride from any sort of non-homicidal maniac, then been dropped-off somewhere else, and that's where things go horribly wrong. Or she could have gone back to someone's home, drinking ensues, someone puts the moves on Maura, Maura tries to fight back and THEN a "dirtbag" emerges.

I'm just thinking Maura was very likely picked-up, but the statistical improbability of a serial killer doesn't mean she wasn't the victim of foul play later on.

Possible, but highly unlikely.

Maura turned down an offer from help from the bus driver. This was someone who could have legitimately helped her. I understand you can't trust anyone, but a bus driver would have been a good bet for Maura seeing as he routinely drives lots of kids around and probably isn't some knife-wielding maniac. She also stated she called AAA when she did not. She could have called them or 911 (or have someone call them). She didn't do any of those things and, in fact, asked the bus driver not to call the cops. She could have also went to any of the nearby houses. Granted, we don't know a whole lot about those people, but it would be pretty foolish for any of them to attack her considering Maura's car could be placed right near their house.

I just don't see how Maura could have refused/not sought out help from all those people who could have legitimately helped her in order to chance it with some random unknown in a "right place, right time" scenario. I also think if Maura was going to be dropped off somewhere, it would have to be at the residence of someone she knew.

Oh man, this just keeps getting more interesting.

As it turns out, there was a Stop N Shop Loyalty Card found in Maura's car after she disappeared. Turns out, this item was also stolen by Maura!! It belongs/belonged to a man in Ohio who had visited the area previously.

Maura is quite the little klepto. Personally, I feel that stealing for her is a compulsion. This is quite different from a person who steals a loaf of bread to feed his family. Maura didn't need the things she stole. I think stealing for her was an addiction.

I'm not familiar with Stop N Shop as there aren't any in my area. I am familiar with these loyalty card things, however, having owned numerous ones at various points from various stores. They have different names of course (club cards, etc). Sometimes, these cards can have all sorts of personal info attached to them, such as credit card info, social security numbers, drivers license numbers, not to mention full name, address, phone number, date of birth, etc.

I don't know when exactly Maura came into possession of this card, but I think it's a very real possibility that she planned on misusing this card in some way in the near future. I think the only reason she left it behind was because she knew it could possibly be traced to her and her location revealed.

And while we're on the subject of her numerous thefts, another thing I found out from Renner's blog was how Maura stole the credit card number in the first place. The lady whose credit card it was said Maura got the number off a receipt taped to the pizza box in the dorm trash room. Which may very well mean Maura was picking through people's trash looking for something she could use for her benefit.

I'm curious as to why Maura did not get fired from her on-campus security job. Since the credit card stealing incident happened while she was on-campus, and since it must have been very uncomfortable for the victim to know the person that stole from her had some sort of authority position, I really don't know how Maura wasn't fired from her job. I also think had Maura stuck around, she either would have been kicked out of the nursing program and/or the college altogether.

It also cannot be underestimated that Maura engaged in identity theft. When you take somebody's credit card, use it to make purchases and try to pass off that you are the card owner, that is identity theft.

I would not at all be surprised if Maura is living somewhere, having stolen somebody else's identity.

I find it interesting that the last time I heard Renner on Lance and Tim's podcast, he said he was 60/40 in favor of Maura being dead, and it is continuing to trend higher in the dead direction. I say interesting because judging by his blog, I would have thought he would say he definitely thinks she is alive.

He also says he thinks she was killed by someone she knew. He didnt offer up any suggestions, but I know he is EXTREMELY suspicious of Sara and Kate in general.

Another reason I don't believe she was picked up by some random bogeyman who tried to make it appear he was there to help is this: Maura couldn't have been guaranteed this person (or anyone else for that matter) would have came into the area that night. There is no discernible reason she essentially refused help from the bus driver, AAA and 911, in order to chance getting picked up by someone else when there was no guarantee anyone else would happen on the scene, or even if they did, would offer her help. They could have just driven on by, as a lot of people do. And if Maura was drunk and stumbling around, that would give people less inclination to help her. I *really* don't think she would turned down help repeatedly and risk a scenario which involves her being left out in a cold, dark, unfamiliar place unless she knew she was being picked up by someone she knew in a matter of seconds or minutes. Again, nobody had to help her. This was a desolate area after all.

I have to wonder if Renner is one of those people that does a good job of pissing people off. Because it seems everyone he comes into contact with regarding this case gives him an extremely hostile reaction. I can understand that from some of Maura's friends and family, but when store clerks get pissed off at him, threaten him with violence and forcibly remove him from their store, it makes you wonder what exactly Renner's investigative techniques are. AFAIK, he has no experience or education in criminal investigation or anything of that nature. He's just some super-obsessed fanboi trying to sell books.

And that's why he's all over the place with his beliefs. He thinks it would make for a boring read if all he did was layout the facts of the case and give his opinion on what happened to her. Instead, he repeatedly pushes every possible scenario imaginable to heighten the mystery so that more people will buy his book (which he's been hawking the bejeezus out of for years on end). I quickly caught on to his act.

Oh man, this just keeps getting more interesting.

As it turns out, there was a Stop N Shop Loyalty Card found in Maura's car after she disappeared. Turns out, this item was also stolen by Maura!! It belongs/belonged to a man in Ohio who had visited the area previously.

Maura is quite the little klepto. Personally, I feel that stealing for her is a compulsion. This is quite different from a person who steals a loaf of bread to feed his family. Maura didn't need the things she stole. I think stealing for her was an addiction.

I'm not familiar with Stop N Shop as there aren't any in my area. I am familiar with these loyalty card things, however, having owned numerous ones at various points from various stores. They have different names of course (club cards, etc). Sometimes, these cards can have all sorts of personal info attached to them, such as credit card info, social security numbers, drivers license numbers, not to mention full name, address, phone number, date of birth, etc.

I don't know when exactly Maura came into possession of this card, but I think it's a very real possibility that she planned on misusing this card in some way in the near future. I think the only reason she left it behind was because she knew it could possibly be traced to her and her location revealed.

LOL, this is a "crime" that I have williingly committed - and would do so again!

I don't like the idea of supercomputers tracking my shopping data, so when I find one of these cards on the ground (usually in the parking lot of the store itself), I pick it up and use it. My data is still collected of course, but hopefully skewed in a weird way when coupled with this other person/family.

You can't access any of the data connected to it, there is no risk of any abuse other than taking advantage of those sweet, sweet savings.

Another reason I don't believe she was picked up by some random bogeyman who tried to make it appear he was there to help is this: Maura couldn't have been guaranteed this person (or anyone else for that matter) would have came into the area that night. There is no discernible reason she essentially refused help from the bus driver, AAA and 911, in order to chance getting picked up by someone else when there was no guarantee anyone else would happen on the scene, or even if they did, would offer her help. They could have just driven on by, as a lot of people do. And if Maura was drunk and stumbling around, that would give people less inclination to help her. I *really* don't think she would turned down help repeatedly and risk a scenario which involves her being left out in a cold, dark, unfamiliar place unless she knew she was being picked up by someone she knew in a matter of seconds or minutes. Again, nobody had to help her. This was a desolate area after all.

I think she was just doing what a whole lot of drunk people instinctively do when they wreck a car - try to get as far away from the scene of the crime as possible so when the police do talk to you, you will hopefully be sober.

She refused the good samaritans help for the same reason - she was trying to escape the scene without anyone discovering what state she was in.

You can't access any of the data connected to it, there is no risk of any abuse other than taking advantage of those sweet, sweet savings.

You're welcome to "steal" my Safeway rewards card anytime you want. Every time I get $100 in grocery sales, I get $.10 off a gallon of gas. :lol: :lol:

Another reason I don't believe she was picked up by some random bogeyman who tried to make it appear he was there to help is this: Maura couldn't have been guaranteed this person (or anyone else for that matter) would have came into the area that night. There is no discernible reason she essentially refused help from the bus driver, AAA and 911, in order to chance getting picked up by someone else when there was no guarantee anyone else would happen on the scene, or even if they did, would offer her help. They could have just driven on by, as a lot of people do. And if Maura was drunk and stumbling around, that would give people less inclination to help her. I *really* don't think she would turned down help repeatedly and risk a scenario which involves her being left out in a cold, dark, unfamiliar place unless she knew she was being picked up by someone she knew in a matter of seconds or minutes. Again, nobody had to help her. This was a desolate area after all.

I have to wonder if Renner is one of those people that does a good job of pissing people off. Because it seems everyone he comes into contact with regarding this case gives him an extremely hostile reaction. I can understand that from some of Maura's friends and family, but when store clerks get pissed off at him, threaten him with violence and forcibly remove him from their store, it makes you wonder what exactly Renner's investigative techniques are. AFAIK, he has no experience or education in criminal investigation or anything of that nature. He's just some super-obsessed fanboi trying to sell books.

And that's why he's all over the place with his beliefs. He thinks it would make for a boring read if all he did was layout the facts of the case and give his opinion on what happened to her. Instead, he repeatedly pushes every possible scenario imaginable to heighten the mystery so that more people will buy his book (which he's been hawking the bejeezus out of for years on end). I quickly caught on to his act.

What do you think of his "killed by someone she knew" theory?

What do you think of his "killed by someone she knew" theory?

I think it's poppycock. Panda poop.

Let's examine the possibilities:

-Kate and/or Sara: Do I think they're lying and covering up? Yeah. Do I find the fact that Kate initially disappeared herself and didn't reappear until some time later suspicious? Yeah. But I don't what motive either one of them would have had, and I can't really envision a scenario in which one or both of them murders her.

-Bill Rausch: Wasn't he in Oklahoma at the time?

-Fred: This is probably the most likely scenario as Fred has often been described as weird with a hot temper. Would he have had the opportunity though? It was an 8 hour drive (4 hours there and 4 hours back), so it seems like if he didn't have an alibi for that huge chunk of time, it would have been found out by now. I think he's got a whole host of skeletons in the closet, but I'm not yet sold on the notion he could have offed her.

The only other potential suspects I can come up with is if she was driving to meet someone in particular (a new boyfriend), but that would seem to suggest she crashed very near where he lived (it would have to be a remarkable coincidence), and then she would have had to do something to provoke him to murder her. I'm not seeing it.

I have no reason to believe that Renner isn't pushing this theory now. In the following weeks, he'll probably suggest voluntary disappearance (again), suicide, exposure, hit and run, and killed by an unknown perp (again).

This case is maddening!

According to wikipedia (yes, I know lol) the area around her crash site was searched rather extensively after her disappearance. Plus, you have the (in my opinion, smoking gun) of no footprints, so I am 99% certain she did not perish in those woods, either freezing or suicide.

In my opinion, she was either abducted from the road or had a second driver who picked her up.

If she was abducted - that is, if she "hitched a ride from a dirtbag in a state of panic" after the crash, why did she not just accept a ride from the bus driver in the first place?

If there was a second driver, where is the phone/email/etc. evidence of communication b/w this person and Maura? Who is this phantom driver? :confused:

I think it's poppycock. Panda poop.

Let's examine the possibilities:

-Kate and/or Sara: Do I think they're lying and covering up? Yeah. Do I find the fact that Kate initially disappeared herself and didn't reappear until some time later suspicious? Yeah. But I don't what motive either one of them would have had, and I can't really envision a scenario in which one or both of them murders her.

-Bill Rausch: Wasn't he in Oklahoma at the time?

-Fred: This is probably the most likely scenario as Fred has often been described as weird with a hot temper. Would he have had the opportunity though? It was an 8 hour drive (4 hours there and 4 hours back), so it seems like if he didn't have an alibi for that huge chunk of time, it would have been found out by now. I think he's got a whole host of skeletons in the closet, but I'm not yet sold on the notion he could have offed her.

The only other potential suspects I can come up with is if she was driving to meet someone in particular (a new boyfriend), but that would seem to suggest she crashed very near where he lived (it would have to be a remarkable coincidence), and then she would have had to do something to provoke him to murder her. I'm not seeing it.

I have no reason to believe that Renner isn't pushing this theory now. In the following weeks, he'll probably suggest voluntary disappearance (again), suicide, exposure, hit and run, and killed by an unknown perp (again).

Would you mind running thru your theory? I know you are a believer in the "Maura staged the accident, ran away with help, and remains in hiding" but I am curious to hear it in more detail as to how you think things went down from when she left Amherst to the accident/dissapearance, and how she was able to pull it off.

Would you mind running thru your theory? I know you are a believer in the "Maura staged the accident, ran away with help, and remains in hiding" but I am curious to hear it in more detail as to how you think things went down from when she left Amherst to the accident/dissapearance, and how she was able to pull it off.

There really isn't that much to pull off. She just simply pre-arranges for some one (or multiple people) to accompany her on the trip, have them pick her up when she needs to be picked up and they drive her to her destination. Really not that difficult.

I don't have all the answers in this case and it would be pretty foolish for me to state that I do. I don't know who accompanied her, nor do I know who's she staying with now. I don't know where she is or what she is doing. I have no idea what identity she is using. Heck, the accident may have been a real accident caused by her drinking, or it could have been forced due to her desire to make it appear the damage on her car was caused by that accident and not by striking Vasi. I really don't know.

What I do know is that I am not fooled by all the smoke and mirrors herself, friends and family have put up over the years. The media pounced all over this case because they wanted us to believe this was a petite, pretty, young, intelligent, determined athlete and all this, while conveniently glossing over the facts that she is a pathological liar, an alcoholic and a compulsive thief who cheated like nuts on her boyfriend, dropped out of two colleges and got into three car accidents in about as many days. She was a criminal and not the goody-two-shoes they painted her to be.

I've already stated in great detail my thoughts on a wide range of aspects on this case and don't care to repeat them as I don't want this thread to start going round in circles and getting ultra-repetitive. I feel that my side has done a remarkable job of bringing forth little-known facts on the case that support she ran away.

Conversely, I feel that those on Renner's blog who support the notion Maura ran into foul play are people that are one-sided and haven't examined all the facts on this case, and who are hardcore supporters of Maura and virtually everything she has done. Seriously, if you check out the comments section of those blog posts with any frequency, you will know what I'm talking about. Heck, there was even one person who semi-condoned her STEALING ANOTHER PERSON'S CREDIT CARD!!

And it can't be stressed enough the lack of any signs she was taken by a perp. The absence of any crime scene, blood, signs of a struggle, dropped items, drag marks, eyewitnesses, earwitnesses or anything of that nature cannot be underestimated. It's just highly unlikely a perp could be in such a desolate area, nab her in such a short time frame, remove all traces of his/her existence in said short time frame, and get away with it scot-free for 12 years.

If there was a second driver, where is the phone/email/etc. evidence of communication b/w this person and Maura? Who is this phantom driver? :confused:

I thought about that too. It could have been face-to-face. Maybe she didn't want to leave a paper trail.

What do you think of his "killed by someone she knew" theory?

I think the implication was that the someone she knew was from Amherst. Fred was hundreds of miles away at the time in Connecticut. And his actions drawing attention to the case would not be those of the killer anyway. The boyfriend was on duty at Fort Sill.
So that leaves her gal pals, maybe the mystery person Renner always implies (who supposedly called her from near Nashua) or even the track coach. Renner has also implied that the police think she was pregnant (the booze may have been an attempt to force a miscarriage) so he may think the baby daddy (maybe he worked at Domino's) was the person.

I myself think she was murdered by the classic "local dirtbag." But I don't think it was completely random. I think she had some sort of interaction with him (like at a gas station) before she fell into his clutches.

I think the staged accident theory is pretty far fetched for someone who couldn't even successfully pull off a simple credit card scam. Anyway why stage an accident? She could have just disappeared without an accident. All the accident would do would be to draw attention to her last known location which was a place she normally would not have been. She could have just driven away and never been seen again and no one would have known even the direction she went in. There would have been false sitings in Texas soon thereafter!

I love when people who don't believe far fetched or overly complicated conspiracy theories are considered "uninformed," "one-sided" or "close-minded" when they are simply thinking logically. If this case is ever solved I am sure the solution will be relatively simple and straight forward. And everyone will say of course that's how it had to have happened.

I think the staged accident theory is pretty far fetched for someone who couldn't even successfully pull off a simple credit card scam.

Well, she did get away with it for awhile. It wasn't until she purchased food from a place the cardholder never visited that was her slip-up. But her purchases went undetected for about a half dozen or so transactions.

The takeaway from the credit card stealing is not that she got caught, it's that she did it in the first place. It shows highly unethical behavior and it becomes easier to believe that she voluntarily disappeared (at the enormous expense of the city of Haverhill and dozens upon dozens of volunteers)

Anyway why stage an accident? She could have just disappeared without an accident.

As i said in my last post on this thread, I think the accident was staged to cover up the damage to her vehicle by strking Vasi, or it was a legit accident caused by her alcohol intake.

I love when people who don't believe far fetched or overly complicated conspiracy theories are considered "uninformed," "one-sided" or "close-minded" when they are simply thinking logically. If this case is ever solved I am sure the solution will be relatively simple and straight forward. And everyone will say of course that's how it had to have happened.

How then do you explain the lack of ANY evidence to point toward foul play? This is something you and everyone else on your side has never been able to answer. How do you explain all of the lying, cheating, stealing, evading, criminal behavior, etc. from Maura and her family?

If the answer is simple, then please tell us how you think it happened, tying all of the loose ends of this complex and many-layered case together.

How then do you explain the lack of ANY evidence to point toward foul play? This is something you and everyone else on your side has never been able to answer. How do you explain all of the lying, cheating, stealing, evading, criminal behavior, etc. from Maura and her family?


Weird how you are so vitriolic toward this girl, but if anyone suggests Darlie Routier wasn't mother of the year, you'll go ballistic.

Well, she did get away with it for awhile. It wasn't until she purchased food from a place the cardholder never visited that was her slip-up. But her purchases went undetected for about a half dozen or so transactions.

The takeaway from the credit card stealing is not that she got caught, it's that she did it in the first place. It shows highly unethical behavior and it becomes easier to believe that she voluntarily disappeared (at the enormous expense of the city of Haverhill and dozens upon dozens of volunteers)



As i said in my last post on this thread, I think the accident was staged to cover up the damage to her vehicle by strking Vasi, or it was a legit accident caused by her alcohol intake.



How then do you explain the lack of ANY evidence to point toward foul play? This is something you and everyone else on your side has never been able to answer. How do you explain all of the lying, cheating, stealing, evading, criminal behavior, etc. from Maura and her family?

If the answer is simple, then please tell us how you think it happened, tying all of the loose ends of this complex and many-layered case together.


The credit card scam was discovered as soon as one of the victims checked their bill. That she did it may be important but her lack of competency at doing it was also important if you have a complicated conspiracy theory requiring competency on her part as a factor.

Why stage an accident to cover up for a previous crime if you are going to disappear? Also the timeline for the hit and run is pretty tight so it is unlikely she did it.

There is a LACK of apparent evidence for both foul play and all the complicated conspiracy theory scenarios. All that is known is that she disappeared. WHY she did so and HOW is a mystery.

I have expressed what I think happened on multiple occasions on this board and on Renner. I suggest you look it up. Whatever the solution turns out to be, if it is ever solved, the answer will undoubtedly be relatively simple. I.e. the mafia and the Cubans did not do it! Things in life are almost always very simple and straightforward. It's called Occam's Razor.

James Renner mentioned today that he made contact with Petrit Vasi at long last, although their conversation was brief. Vasi says he never met Maura and he's heard the theory that she may have been involved in his accident but he considers the possibility very far-fetched.

I remain in the camp of people who doesn't believe Maura was the person who struck Vasi. On top of the near impossibility of her not getting caught leaving her post at the dorm, Vasi brings up the often forgotten point that there was a snowstorm that night. A snowstorm that was so bad that it ended up cancelling classes the following day. Have you ever tried to drive in a hurry during a snowstorm? If you're going to try to sneak away from work, go some place and hope to get back without getting caught, those weather conditions are going to severely damage any attempt. There would be no point. This is further confirmation for me, on top of everything else, that she couldn't have done it.

Curiously, and unfortunately for Vasi, the police have told Renner that they can't release any information about the accident because it's considered an ongoing investigation. However, Vasi told Renner that he has never spoken to police in the past 12 years. Not once. According to him, he doesn't know if it's an ongoing investigation.

Hit and run accidents were a major problem on the UMass campus during that 2003/2004 school year. A 2004 article that is still available online about Vasi's recovery mentioned this...

"As several students have been the victims of car accidents this year alone, including Lisa Shiozaki and Ciara Tran, both of whom were left in critical condition, Vasi’s accident proves not to be an isolated event, and his recovery proves to be very fortunate."

Also interestingly on the latest podcast, two of Maura's final emails to her seven best friends from high school were read on the air. In both of them, she mentions the weather conditions and the number of hit and runs on campus...

Monday, December 15, 2003 (Eight weeks before her disappearance)

Hey ladies! One more final and a paper. Did everyone get tons of snow? UMass sucks at plowing and my little Saturn got stuck. Now I’m screwed for tomorrow. Parking services can shove it. Anyway, I feel like I haven’t seen anyone in years but the stories are great. Carly, I hope you feel better and the same to Erin Jones. I had that in Florida on spring break. Anyway, Bill is coming up the 20th and we’re seeing a Duke game in NY, then heading to Hanson. Actually, Hanover to stay with Kathleen. Julie is coming home on the 23rd. Wahoo!!! And we plan on going to see Dane Cook. I hope everyone can come. Then off to Ohio. But when do you girls go back to school? My 8:00 a.m. final got moved to 6:30 p.m. which didn’t work out as well as I’d hoped because I slept all day. Ha! Screw it! I’m in a great mood. I hope you all have more motivation than I do.

See you soon,
Maura

And her final ever group email to her friends:

Thursday, January 29, 2004 (11 days before her disappearance)

Maybe I can lighten the email mood. UMass had crosswalks with pretty much railroad barriers because so many people have gotten hit/had accidents. I think there were seven last year. Not much to say about the rashes, though. Katie, what do crabs eat? Do they need a little aquarium? Ha! I’m jealous. Are you ready for this? Dane Cook is playing at UMass and we went to get tickets but it was sold out. I missed out AGAIN! But I did some research and he plays in Storrs, Connecticut February 12th not too far from UMass Worcester Providence. Tickets are ten bucks and go on sale Monday. So let me know if anyone’s interested. I imagine they will be hard to get as usual.

Take care, girls
Maura

Even though I don't believe she was responsible for the Vasi hit-and-run, it's become a popular theory over the years that she did it. And it's VERY ironic that she starts out her last ever email to her closest friends by mentioning all the hit and runs that have been happening on her campus. :crazy:

James Renner mentioned today that he made contact with Petrit Vasi at long last, although their conversation was brief. Vasi says he never met Maura and he's heard the theory that she may have been involved in his accident but he considers the possibility very far-fetched.

It should be noted that Vasi remembers next to nothing about that night and the incident himself. With that in mind, I don't know how he could come to the conclusion that it was highly unlikely Maura did it. Maybe she really didn't hit him, but how would he know that? Considering the tons of students on campus and such, it's not surprising he never met her.

I remain in the camp of people who doesn't believe Maura was the person who struck Vasi. On top of the near impossibility of her not getting caught leaving her post at the dorm, Vasi brings up the often forgotten point that there was a snowstorm that night. A snowstorm that was so bad that it ended up cancelling classes the following day. Have you ever tried to drive in a hurry during a snowstorm? If you're going to try to sneak away from work, go some place and hope to get back without getting caught, those weather conditions are going to severely damage any attempt. There would be no point. This is further confirmation for me, on top of everything else, that she couldn't have done it.

If her troubling phone call wasn't related to Vasi, then what was it about?

Curiously, and unfortunately for Vasi, the police have told Renner that they can't release any information about the accident because it's considered an ongoing investigation. However, Vasi told Renner that he has never spoken to police in the past 12 years. Not once. According to him, he doesn't know if it's an ongoing investigation.

Renner stated that the police's statements about it being an "ongoing investigation" is baloney because the statute of limitations has passed, so there would be no way to prosecute the person responsible, if they were able to find this person at all.

I find it incredibly hard to believe Vasi hasn't spoken to police in the 12 years since this happened. Very hard to believe. The only way is if he felt the accident was his fault.

Hit and run accidents were a major problem on the UMass campus during that 2003/2004 school year. A 2004 article that is still available online about Vasi's recovery mentioned this...

"As several students have been the victims of car accidents this year alone, including Lisa Shiozaki and Ciara Tran, both of whom were left in critical condition, Vasi’s accident proves not to be an isolated event, and his recovery proves to be very fortunate."

The main reasons I believe Maura could have hit Vasi are that: 1) she got into several other car accidents in the encompassing week. 2) she has a history of fleeing to avoid problems. 3) she has a history of dishonesty.

Hey ladies! One more final and a paper. Did everyone get tons of snow? UMass sucks at plowing and my little Saturn got stuck. Now I’m screwed for tomorrow. Parking services can shove it. Anyway, I feel like I haven’t seen anyone in years but the stories are great. Carly, I hope you feel better and the same to Erin Jones. I had that in Florida on spring break. Anyway, Bill is coming up the 20th and we’re seeing a Duke game in NY, then heading to Hanson. Actually, Hanover to stay with Kathleen. Julie is coming home on the 23rd. Wahoo!!! And we plan on going to see Dane Cook. I hope everyone can come. Then off to Ohio. But when do you girls go back to school? My 8:00 a.m. final got moved to 6:30 p.m. which didn’t work out as well as I’d hoped because I slept all day. Ha! Screw it! I’m in a great mood. I hope you all have more motivation than I do.

See you soon,
Maura

The main thing I take away from that is that she obviously had connections to people in several states. New York, Ohio... That leads me to believe she could have connections to people in New Hampshire and Canada.

who struck Vasi. On top of the near impossibility of her not getting caught leaving her post at the dorm, Vasi brings up the often forgotten point that there was a snowstorm that night. A snowstorm that was so bad that it ended up cancelling classes the following day. Have you ever tried to drive in a hurry during a snowstorm? If you're going to try to sneak away from work, go some place and hope to get back without getting caught, those weather conditions are going to severely damage any attempt. There would be no point. This is further confirmation for me, on top of everything else, that she couldn't have done it.

I've gone back and forth about the whole Vasi thing for awhile now, but you bring up an excellent point about driving in the snow. While we rarely experience blizzards where I live, I've had to drive the interstate in a snowstorm more than once and it's not exactly a picnic. There are always the crazies who drive too fast for conditions, but most people drive very slowly. I'm leaning more now towards Vasi Petrit's hit and run being a coincidence.

wiseguy182 commented previously that she may have used the breakdown to get out of work. She broke several rules on the job such as using her cell phone and doing her homework. I graduated college May 2015 and almost none of my coworkers on campus were interested in actually doing the job they were being paid to do. They broke rules daily while the boss was there and broke even more when she wasn't. I can't help but wonder if Maura used the crying episode to get out of work. I've known past coworkers to do the same thing and they've freely admitted it afterwards.

I don't know if we'll ever have all of the answers, but I hope we at least find some of them one day. If nothing else, I want to know if she's dead or alive.

James Renner mentioned today that he made contact with Petrit Vasi at long last, although their conversation was brief. Vasi says he never met Maura and he's heard the theory that she may have been involved in his accident but he considers the possibility very far-fetched.

I remain in the camp of people who doesn't believe Maura was the person who struck Vasi. On top of the near impossibility of her not getting caught leaving her post at the dorm, Vasi brings up the often forgotten point that there was a snowstorm that night. A snowstorm that was so bad that it ended up cancelling classes the following day. Have you ever tried to drive in a hurry during a snowstorm? If you're going to try to sneak away from work, go some place and hope to get back without getting caught, those weather conditions are going to severely damage any attempt. There would be no point. This is further confirmation for me, on top of everything else, that she couldn't have done it.

Curiously, and unfortunately for Vasi, the police have told Renner that they can't release any information about the accident because it's considered an ongoing investigation. However, Vasi told Renner that he has never spoken to police in the past 12 years. Not once. According to him, he doesn't know if it's an ongoing investigation.

Hit and run accidents were a major problem on the UMass campus during that 2003/2004 school year. A 2004 article that is still available online about Vasi's recovery mentioned this...

"As several students have been the victims of car accidents this year alone, including Lisa Shiozaki and Ciara Tran, both of whom were left in critical condition, Vasi’s accident proves not to be an isolated event, and his recovery proves to be very fortunate."

Also interestingly on the latest podcast, two of Maura's final emails to her seven best friends from high school were read on the air. In both of them, she mentions the weather conditions and the number of hit and runs on campus...

Monday, December 15, 2003 (Eight weeks before her disappearance)

Hey ladies! One more final and a paper. Did everyone get tons of snow? UMass sucks at plowing and my little Saturn got stuck. Now I’m screwed for tomorrow. Parking services can shove it. Anyway, I feel like I haven’t seen anyone in years but the stories are great. Carly, I hope you feel better and the same to Erin Jones. I had that in Florida on spring break. Anyway, Bill is coming up the 20th and we’re seeing a Duke game in NY, then heading to Hanson. Actually, Hanover to stay with Kathleen. Julie is coming home on the 23rd. Wahoo!!! And we plan on going to see Dane Cook. I hope everyone can come. Then off to Ohio. But when do you girls go back to school? My 8:00 a.m. final got moved to 6:30 p.m. which didn’t work out as well as I’d hoped because I slept all day. Ha! Screw it! I’m in a great mood. I hope you all have more motivation than I do.

See you soon,
Maura

And her final ever group email to her friends:

Thursday, January 29, 2004 (11 days before her disappearance)

Maybe I can lighten the email mood. UMass had crosswalks with pretty much railroad barriers because so many people have gotten hit/had accidents. I think there were seven last year. Not much to say about the rashes, though. Katie, what do crabs eat? Do they need a little aquarium? Ha! I’m jealous. Are you ready for this? Dane Cook is playing at UMass and we went to get tickets but it was sold out. I missed out AGAIN! But I did some research and he plays in Storrs, Connecticut February 12th not too far from UMass Worcester Providence. Tickets are ten bucks and go on sale Monday. So let me know if anyone’s interested. I imagine they will be hard to get as usual.

Take care, girls
Maura

Even though I don't believe she was responsible for the Vasi hit-and-run, it's become a popular theory over the years that she did it. And it's VERY ironic that she starts out her last ever email to her closest friends by mentioning all the hit and runs that have been happening on her campus. :crazy:


you can look at the last comments by MM and the overall situation two ways...
first, hit and runs were not uncommon in Amherst. Given the place's longtime reputation as Zoo Mass this should not be unexpected with drunk drivers hitting drunks staggering down the street.

secondly whenever something odd happens (like a student disappearing under odd circumstances) it is only natural to want to link anything else odd that happened around the same time (like the hit and run), particularly when the person involved in the former seems to have a nervous breakdown around the time of the latter.

while I do not think it was impossible for MM to have been involved in the hit and run (the timeline is a little flaky), it is unlikely because no one noticed her missing and she seemed to be unable to have been able to get away with it without someone being on to her.

although driving is hard in snow, that could also be a mitigating factor in why the accident happened in the first place.

some contend that MM "staged" her NH accident to hide the damage from the hit and run. However, this brings up several other points. If she was running away she would have had no reason to stage the accident. (And, undoubtedly there would still be some trace of the original damage on the car still). Were she leaving for good, then she could have just left, ditched the car somewhere and be gone. So, even if you believe the accident was staged, her disappearance seemingly was not. So something odd happened after the accident, whether it was staged or not.
Secondly, if the car was damaged initially, how could she expect it to successfully make it to the staged location? a car that had a person bouncing off it that was already claimed to be in bad shape could not be expected to last long distances. a staged event would, therefore, probably have been set up a lot closer to Amherst.

simple solutions seem to be the way real life works so the staged scenario seems unlikely to me.

I have another theory:

What if Maura DID accept a ride from a non-serial-killer, and then later on she somehow became the victim of foul play? She could have accepted a ride from any sort of non-homicidal maniac, then been dropped-off somewhere else, and that's where things go horribly wrong. Or she could have gone back to someone's home, drinking ensues, someone puts the moves on Maura, Maura tries to fight back and THEN a "dirtbag" emerges.

I'm just thinking Maura was very likely picked-up, but the statistical improbability of a serial killer doesn't mean she wasn't the victim of foul play later on.

Many folks have used the notion of Maura rejecting help from Butch to refute the idea she later went on to accept a ride elsewhere. But, given her situation and her mindset, there was no benefit from taking help from Butch.

He lived adjacent to the accident scene and police were on their way. No one who had just been drinking behind the wheel would have considered that as an option as you would be essentially turning yourself in to the police. It would have been incredibly suspicious to retreat back to the Atwood home and then minutes later avoid the police who just got to the scene. Clearly she didn't want any interaction with cops and staying with them would have made that impossible.

Conversely, if she was tying to flee the scene and conceal her level of intoxication, a person driving by the scene who offered her a ride would 1) get her away from scene immediately 2) No interaction with police and no DUI.

So, quite honestly, her not taking help from Atwood is understandable. A ride further away from the scene would be more beneficial for her in terms of escaping culpability for the accident.

Based on the searches, lack of foot prints etc I've never fully embraced the idea she went off in the woods, got lost and died. Is it possible? Of course, but we're past a decade here and the more time goes on the less likely it seems to me.

As mentioned above, people have this idea that if Maura met with foul play, it had to be a result of a serial killer who just randomly found her while out trolling for victims and abducted her, forcing her into the car as she kicked and screamed. That is unlikely, and I agree for sure.

But, given Maura was greeted by a 300 lb guy with a mustache who offered to call the cops and wait while they arrived...virtually anyone would have looked less intimidating. Not only did he not help in terms of fleeing police, to a female, he was a scary looking fellow. So any random motorist who could have driven by and lent assistance would be likely to look a bit less menacing to Maura.

This person lending help may not be a serial killer, or homicidal maniac but a young lady hopping in a strangers car could be a pretty tempting situation to many and perhaps murder was not even a consideration, maybe just sexual advances initially. Still, a wide open door for things to spiral out of control and end badly.

A lot of things could have happened to Maura, but at ths is point I don't believe she is still alive and it could have easily resulted in simply taking a ride from the wrong person or even a more complex series of events that led to her demise.

Sure, it can be argued that this might not be "likely" or "probable" but as countless other cases have shown us, her being deceased is within the realm of reality now, much more so than her sneaking into Canada and pulling off an almost Hollywood-esque disappearance to start a new life in hiding.

^ I think a woman would be hesitant to hitch a ride with any stranger, particularly a male one. I don't understand why she would turn down help from a male stranger only to hitch a ride with another one. Either one of them could be a perp theoretically, so what was the difference? Yeah, she probably didn't want to deal with the cops and the fallout from all that, but it would have been a better fate than getting raped and murdered, as a lot of people believe that's what happened to her. My point is, what part of her brain told her this Butch was 'scary and a creep', but told her it was a good idea to hitch a ride with somebody that did her in? Unless she was so heavily intoxicated that she was completely incapable of making sound decisions, but she probably would have crashed earlier if that were the case.

I think, more or less, any conscious choice to leave the accident and perhaps take a ride from a stranger, would boil down to one reason only: Don't get caught. Avoid cops, avoid arrest, avoid DUI and avoid trouble with her parents.

I don't know what her level of intoxication was, but I am thinking there was genuine fear of an arrest here. Maybe one could talk their way out of some spilled booze in the car, but to do so when drunk is not a risk many want to take. I'm sure the incident with the Toyota was just luck. She was calm and collected, the car didn't stink of alcohol and the officer was in a hurry. Regardless, all the stars aligned and she was very lucky in that incident and figured her luck would have run out in this situation.

So whether it just due to intoxication, or fright, or both...I could definitely imagine her ignoring her best judgement and making risky choices to simply flee the scene. She may not have even found Atwood to be intimidating, but he surely wasn't going to cover for her when the police came. Getting away from that Saturn, despite any risk involved, was her #1 priority at the time, whether it meant going a mile away or 10 miles, as long as she wasn't there when the fuzz arrived.

I've seen it happen numerous times. There was an oddly placed telephone pole right outside of a house I used to live at. Right on a slight curve of a busy street and it would get hit by a car at least once every year, sometimes more. Made the most awful and startling noise. It was easy to tell who was drunk when they hit it. A few minutes later, if police were taking to the driver outside the car, they were likely sober. If minutes later police were pointing their flashlights into an empty, damaged car - definitely a drunk driver.

I think Maura was ready to do whatever it took to escape her mistake, even it meant ignoring common sense.

I think, more or less, any conscious choice to leave the accident and perhaps take a ride from a stranger, would boil down to one reason only: Don't get caught. Avoid cops, avoid arrest, avoid DUI and avoid trouble with her parents.

I don't know what her level of intoxication was, but I am thinking there was genuine fear of an arrest here. Maybe one could talk their way out of some spilled booze in the car, but to do so when drunk is not a risk many want to take. I'm sure the incident with the Toyota was just luck. She was calm and collected, the car didn't stink of alcohol and the officer was in a hurry. Regardless, all the stars aligned and she was very lucky in that incident and figured her luck would have run out in this situation.

So whether it just due to intoxication, or fright, or both...I could definitely imagine her ignoring her best judgement and making risky choices to simply flee the scene. She may not have even found Atwood to be intimidating, but he surely wasn't going to cover for her when the police came. Getting away from that Saturn, despite any risk involved, was her #1 priority at the time, whether it meant going a mile away or 10 miles, as long as she wasn't there when the fuzz arrived.

I've seen it happen numerous times. There was an oddly placed telephone pole right outside of a house I used to live at. Right on a slight curve of a busy street and it would get hit by a car at least once every year, sometimes more. Made the most awful and startling noise. It was easy to tell who was drunk when they hit it. A few minutes later, if police were taking to the driver outside the car, they were likely sober. If minutes later police were pointing their flashlights into an empty, damaged car - definitely a drunk driver.

I think Maura was ready to do whatever it took to escape her mistake, even it meant ignoring common sense.

That doesn't explain the box of wine that was dumped out in to the snow. If Maura was trying to evade a DUI, why didn't she just take the box of wine with her, as opposed to dumping it right by the car, essentially letting the police know this was an alcohol-related crash? Maybe they couldn't pin things on her, but alcohol + crash + young female driver + driver with a history of accidents + not present at the scene, at the very least, the police would have asked her some very tough questions. And as we all know, Maura sucks at lying.

Many of the commenters on Renner's blog are hilarious. These were the people that were positive Maura was a perfect angel that could do no wrong and were certain foul play was involved. It's fun watching them paint themselves in a corner as more and more of the real Maura has come to light. A classic example is from the olden days when people didn't think the crash of the Saturn was alcohol-related, until Renner produced the actual police report that proved otherwise. One of these days, they will be so backed up against the wall that they will be completely unable to produce a theory that ties everything together and points to foul play, if we're not there already.

That doesn't explain the box of wine that was dumped out in to the snow. If Maura was trying to evade a DUI, why didn't she just take the box of wine with her, as opposed to dumping it right by the car, essentially letting the police know this was an alcohol-related crash? Maybe they couldn't pin things on her, but alcohol + crash + young female driver + driver with a history of accidents + not present at the scene, at the very least, the police would have asked her some very tough questions. And as we all know, Maura sucks at lying.

Many of the commenters on Renner's blog are hilarious. These were the people that were positive Maura was a perfect angel that could do no wrong and were certain foul play was involved. It's fun watching them paint themselves in a corner as more and more of the real Maura has come to light. A classic example is from the olden days when people didn't think the crash of the Saturn was alcohol-related, until Renner produced the actual police report that proved otherwise. One of these days, they will be so backed up against the wall that they will be completely unable to produce a theory that ties everything together and points to foul play, if we're not there already.

The wine box admittedly is a bit of an enigma. We know it got all over the car, some on the snow yet oddly enough it was left behind in the car. Surely there was some panic at that very moment and perhaps the damage was done - there's no quick way to cover that up. I think it all ties into the idea of fleeing the scene - booze all over the car, witnesses, drinking and driving. There was no talking her way out of this one, so running away from the scene was the only means of escape without punishment.

She left with a backpack, so to occupy that with the damaged wine box would have been fruitless, she had other ideas of what to take anyway.

As far as foul play - to me it will always be a viable scenario until completely ruled out. And it certainly hasn't been ruled out. With any theory, even the almighty Renner's, none of them have been fully substantiated. We can all make great arguments, but in the end, we're back at square one because every scenario argued is missing a piece or two of the puzzle.

But I will say this - John Healy, the private investigator hired by the Murrays, essentially laid the foundation for Renner's blog and handed it to him on a silver platter. Renner expanded on his major findings and came to completely different conclusion.

Healy seemed to allude to a falling out with Fred, and I doubt works on the case any more but did admit he went foul play was involved and even felt he had a suspect. Renner himself brought that all to light at the very start on his blog.

So along with Healy, we have Fred and at least two other NH police have all felt strongly about the idea of foul play.

She left with a backpack, so to occupy that with the damaged wine box would have been fruitless, she had other ideas of what to take anyway.

Then why would she have taken the 3 bottles of alcohol with her and leave that behind? If she was picked up in another car as I believe, she could have had room enough for the box of wine. Since Maura got lucky the first time around, she may have hoped she would get lucky the second time and hoped the police officer was inept or whatever and wouldn't notice or wouldn't bother with it.

Then why would she have taken the 3 bottles of alcohol with her and leave that behind? If she was picked up in another car as I believe, she could have had room enough for the box of wine. Since Maura got lucky the first time around, she may have hoped she would get lucky the second time and hoped the police officer was inept or whatever and wouldn't notice or wouldn't bother with it.


sometimes minor points get exaggerated all out of proportion.
she took the closed bottles of alcohol with her both because they were easier to carry and because, seemingly, she intended to drink them later (one theory is to cause a miscarriage). If she had left them behind, since they were unopened, they would not have any impact on a DUI case one way or the other.

On the other hand the wine had spilled all over the car. Apparently it was already open and she was sipping from wine in a coke can while driving. The impact of the accident spilled the wine. She wasn't thinking too sharply but maybe by pouring out the wine she thought it would mitigate a charge of an open container or she simply got rid of it because she couldn't carry it with her because it was bulky and already open. Or maybe she just did it subconsciously while she thought about what she was going to do next.

Another thing that's weird about the 4 shampoo bottles: one of them was Head and Shoulders. Isn't this primarily a *male* shampoo? Because I can't imagine a lot of women using it.

I've pondered whether or not she ran away and went into hiding of her own accord, but there are two things that don't make sense to me if that were the case.

First, if she was orchestrating this and had planned the crash, had a getaway driver, etc., why the hell would she be drinking and driving on the way there? The fact that she was drinking behind the wheel in and of itself makes me feel as though the accident wasn't premeditated or staged, and was rather a legitimate crash due to her being intoxicated (given her recent driving history, this makes even more sense to me).

Second, if she had planned this out and went into hiding, I find it very strange that she would not have surfaced after all this time. She would be, what, thirty-one or thirty-two now? To go into hiding like that for over a decade seems an extreme reaction from a 21 year old in the circumstances she was in. I know she was in trouble, but it's not like she was facing murder charges. It's been thirteen years now; the sheer length of time she's been gone is what disturbs me.

Another thing that's weird about the 4 shampoo bottles: one of them was Head and Shoulders. Isn't this primarily a *male* shampoo? Because I can't imagine a lot of women using it.


it is a dandruff shampoo used by many people of both sexes for that reason. I don't read anything odd about the stuff in the car except for the alcohol.

sometimes minor points get exaggerated all out of proportion.
she took the closed bottles of alcohol with her both because they were easier to carry and because, seemingly, she intended to drink them later (one theory is to cause a miscarriage). If she had left them behind, since they were unopened, they would not have any impact on a DUI case one way or the other.

On the other hand the wine had spilled all over the car. Apparently it was already open and she was sipping from wine in a coke can while driving. The impact of the accident spilled the wine. She wasn't thinking too sharply but maybe by pouring out the wine she thought it would mitigate a charge of an open container or she simply got rid of it because she couldn't carry it with her because it was bulky and already open. Or maybe she just did it subconsciously while she thought about what she was going to do next.

The damage was done and there wasn't much to do to remedy the spilled wine. Even the most lax of police would have a tough time overlooking a car that had booze spilled all inside of it. Sure, she could have ditched the wine box, put it in the trunk....but there's no hiding the spill/smell inside. She would have got a DUI for sure and she knew that. She might be able to fool a cop, but not a breathalyzer test.

Worrying about small details like the box was trivial, she just wanted to leave quickly, IMO.

it is a dandruff shampoo used by many people of both sexes for that reason. I don't read anything odd about the stuff in the car except for the alcohol.

While I wouldn't say it's a male exclusive shampoo, I know many women (myself included) who don't use it because it dries out our hair. Lots of people have that one "thing" that's sort of their weakness in terms of personal care stuff. Mine is hair care items. Personally, I wouldn't carry four full sized bottles of shampoo anywhere.

More to the point, I was a social worker at one point. It looked like my car was homeless camp because I practically lived in it and you'd never have found that much shampoo in my car. Soda, probably. Spare sets of clothes, yes. Maybe even two deodorant containers but four bottles of shampoo does seem odd to me because it's not something you can quickly use in the car.

The damage was done and there wasn't much to do to remedy the spilled wine. Even the most lax of police would have a tough time overlooking a car that had booze spilled all inside of it. Sure, she could have ditched the wine box, put it in the trunk....but there's no hiding the spill/smell inside. She would have got a DUI for sure and she knew that. She might be able to fool a cop, but not a breathalyzer test.

Worrying about small details like the box was trivial, she just wanted to leave quickly, IMO.

she could fool a breathalyzer test if she waited it out until she got sober but then she'd have a new charge of leaving the scene of an accident.

she could fool a breathalyzer test if she waited it out until she got sober but then she'd have a new charge of leaving the scene of an accident.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm getting at.

Had she fled the accident and say, her car was impounded and she later went to retrieve it, there is no way police could prove a DUI, let alone she was driving. The car was in her Dad's name and even if police managed to charge her with something it is not going to be anywhere as severe as a DUI. Even so, there's no proof of who was driving so I don't think much would have resulted. I don't know the legalities of leaving the scene of a single car crash, but I can't imagine it being too terribly severe and certainly not as bad as a driving while intoxicated charge.

However, with open containers (likely the Coke bottle, wine box and maybe more) that would likely be another charge unless a lawyer worked some magic, but still minor charges in comparison to an actual DUI.

In short, she knew she screwed up badly again and she knew the only way to avoid trouble (at least major trouble) was to get the heck away from the scene as soon as possible.

The basis of finding out what happened to Maura lies in what means she used to leave the scene of her crash.

there's no proof of who was driving

I've read some theories that suggest Maura wasn't even in the Saturn that night and that one of her friends crashed it. I don't know how likely that theory is, but it certainly puts yet another spin on the case that could take the case in an entirely different direction.

I've read some theories that suggest Maura wasn't even in the Saturn that night and that one of her friends crashed it. I don't know how likely that theory is, but it certainly puts yet another spin on the case that could take the case in an entirely different direction.

of course the witness who saw Maura at the car before she disappeared was probably part of some fantastical convoluted conspiracy.

I've read some theories that suggest Maura wasn't even in the Saturn that night and that one of her friends crashed it. I don't know how likely that theory is, but it certainly puts yet another spin on the case that could take the case in an entirely different direction.

I find that unlikely given the eyewitness bus driver who spoke with her; I mean, he could've been mistaken, but I doubt it.

I find that unlikely given the eyewitness bus driver who spoke with her; I mean, he could've been mistaken, but I doubt it.

I don't know if I believe it or not, I was just merely stating there are some theories out there.

But considering just one person was known to have claimed to see Maura at the time, and given that many eyewitness accounts are wrong, and that it was at night, I don't think the theory that it was one of her friends could be totally dismissed.

In short, she knew she screwed up badly again and she knew the only way to avoid trouble (at least major trouble) was to get the heck away from the scene as soon as possible.

The basis of finding out what happened to Maura lies in what means she used to leave the scene of her crash.

I completely agree. On other (non-UM) forums, a LOT of people believe she succumbed to the elements in the woods near the crash. While the initial policeman on the scene may not have been Sherlock Holmes, you'd have to be Barney Fife to miss footprints in snow...there is no way Maura went into the woods without leaving footprints, either on the slushy road or in the show by the side of the road. I'm not ruling out total incompetence here, but I just don't think it's likely (especially considering how thoroughly that area has been searched over the years)

I completely agree. On other (non-UM) forums, a LOT of people believe she succumbed to the elements in the woods near the crash. While the initial policeman on the scene may not have been Sherlock Holmes, you'd have to be Barney Fife to miss footprints in snow...there is no way Maura went into the woods without leaving footprints, either on the slushy road or in the show by the side of the road. I'm not ruling out total incompetence here, but I just don't think it's likely (especially considering how thoroughly that area has been searched over the years)


Based on the search for her it seems unlikely that she traveled on foot. John Scarinza, the NH state police Lt. who worked on the case, told James Renner that he assisted in the search via helicopter. The terrain was pristine and it had not snowed since the crash. No foot prints found. No sign at all.

He also went on to say the scent dogs lost Maura's scent 100 yards from the accident and lamented that she either got in a car or their scent sample was too poor to work with.

I think that essentially puts any speculation of her leaving on foot, for any extended distance, to rest. Forcier's "sighting" of Maura I think was simply another female who fit the general description and for the most part I think he just made a mistake.

Sure, there are always variables here. Maybe she walked down 112 and produced no prints because she walking on the edge of the road and not snow. Maybe she walked, got picked up much further down the road. Maybe she entered the woods 5 miles away from the accident? There certainly are things to consider, but ultimately I would like to think NH state police and Fish & Game also considered this when conducting the search.

While I do think it would be quite insane (trust me I lived there for almost 20 years) and perplexing that she would enter the woods, mostly unprepared on a February evening - even despite being in a possible bad state of mind. I can't get in Maura's head, but I would admit it would be pretty astonishing if she managed to conceal her own body for 12 years. Maybe for a few years, sure that could happen. Maybe even 6 or 7 years. But the more time goes on and she is not found, the less I think she went out in the woods and got lost/committed suicide.

NH loves winter, and the outdoors. Lots of hikers, outdoor enthusiasts and generally active people - regardless of what season it is.

I'm fairly certain bodies of water in the area are frozen solid at that point in the season. I'm sure that that angle has likely been looked at and again, I think it would just be a remarkable feat for her to conceal herself that well for 12 years, keeping in mind that basically all local bodies of water are frozen solid.

I'll stop short of saying an impossible feat, but one way or another I think she left the scene by car.

I too think she got into a car and then foul play ensued, maybe even at a house (not the bus driver's) within sight of the accident where the resident came up with a phony alibi a month later and would not let the police into his house.

of course the witness who saw Maura at the car before she disappeared was probably part of some fantastical convoluted conspiracy.

of course I never said I believed it, just that some people were mentioning it.

But while I'm on the subject, considering a lot of eyewitnesses are wrong, and it was dark, and the person didn't know Maura, the possibility still exists it wasn't her.

of course the witness who saw Maura at the car before she disappeared was probably part of some fantastical convoluted conspiracy.
Yeah, did you ever consider that the CIA, the FBI, The KGB, the Mafia and the Bloods and the Crips might be involved. I think so!! The evidence clearly shows it.

of course I never said I believed it, just that some people were mentioning it.

But while I'm on the subject, considering a lot of eyewitnesses are wrong, and it was dark, and the person didn't know Maura, the possibility still exists it wasn't her.

yes many witnesses are wrong but often they are far away or didn't get a good look-see. The bus driver was up close and had a conversation. The general description he gave fit Maura. To me it is highly unlikely that he was not talking to the owner (I know it was in Fred's name) and usual driver of the car.

Several questions/ comments come to mind:

What reason would someone else have to drive the car?

Maura seemed to be a bad driver, so an accident at a sharp curve does not seem a stretch...

Whomever the bus driver talked to soon disappeared. Who is the only person to disappear in this scenario?

In this case people often do come up with zany theories. The latest is that it was a local police cover-up. Ironically I just read a book about the Lil Miss murder in Montana (a place more sparsely settled than northern NH) and in the 12 or so years the case was unsolved there were a lot of odd theories. At one point in that case the police chief was even accused and forced to give a blood sample. In the end the killer turned out to be a "local dirtbag" who didn't even come up as a suspect even though the victim's property was right on the route the victim was taking. He was arrested while in prison for another crime. The big difference in the two cases was that in Montana they had a body and no car but in NH they had a car and no body. but I think ultimately the result will probably be the same.

I too think she got into a car and then foul play ensued, maybe even at a house (not the bus driver's) within sight of the accident where the resident came up with a phony alibi a month later and would not let the police into his house.

Forcier is an interesting character for sure. From what I understand he denied police a search of his property (maybe even more than once) and allegedly made some odd comments about MM. He seemingly turned down a similar request from the Murray family private investigator. Once he sold his property, police quickly swooped in, got the OK from the new owners and searched it, finding nothing.

One has to think, there has to be some basis to attempt the original search and surely cops didn't hesitate to go back once it was sold. There definitely is a slight nagging suspicion with Forcier because of this, but at the same time he injected himself into this whole case on his own accord, telling police he may have saw Maura.

Most guilty people wouldn't do such a thing. Most, but not all...

Also, if you look back on Renner's blog during the whole fiasco with the former NH cop speaking on Facebook about the case, you have to admit...seems very much like he's talking about Forcier.

Forcier is an interesting character for sure. From what I understand he denied police a search of his property (maybe even more than once) and allegedly made some odd comments about MM. He seemingly turned down a similar request from the Murray family private investigator. Once he sold his property, police quickly swooped in, got the OK from the new owners and searched it, finding nothing.

One has to think, there has to be some basis to attempt the original search and surely cops didn't hesitate to go back once it was sold. There definitely is a slight nagging suspicion with Forcier because of this, but at the same time he injected himself into this whole case on his own accord, telling police he may have saw Maura.

Most guilty people wouldn't do such a thing. Most, but not all...

Also, if you look back on Renner's blog during the whole fiasco with the former NH cop speaking on Facebook about the case, you have to admit...seems very much like he's talking about Forcier.

you forgot several things about this guy. First, the police did not search his property. They searched his trailer by pulling it over while it was going down the road to its new owner. Secondly, he was building a house next to his trailer at the time of the accident so there was a construction site right there. Third, a month after the accident he claimed to see a woman running along the road 6-7 miles to the east about an hour after the crash. This provided him with an alibi but since he could see the accident scene from his house, he should have noticed it immediately and said something at the time, not when suspicions were being sent his way. And lastly, his ex-wife is on the record for saying he killed Maura. While exes hate each other, I cannot think of any that would say something like that in public.

my working theory is that Maura may have met him at the stage gas station where he was pals with the owner (who tried to beat up Renner). If so, he may have planted the rag. He came upon the accident scene after the bus driver. By this point Maura had decided to walk to get help (maybe to the bus driver's house which was across the street from F's trailer) and took the offer of the guy either because she had just met him or because he could point to his house and say something like "you can use my phone." What are the odds that a killer would live within sight of the crash? Maura must have thought, so she let her guard down. But what are the odds that someone in a minor car accident far from home would disappear? I'd say about the same.

Renner is something else. He recently talked about an establishment in Quebec that had one of the most reliable Maura sightings, then gave a lecture to his readers that they should not go about contacting the owners because he doesn't want them to be harassed. This, of course, is coming from the same guy who has repeatedly and flat-out invaded people's privacy by showing up, unannounced and uninvited, on their doorstep to ask questions about this case, then publicly bashing them on his forum when they refuse to discuss the case.

While I still find it to be very suspicious that Maura's friends and family repeatedly lie and evade, I can at least understand why they avoid Renner.

Renner is something else. He recently talked about an establishment in Quebec that had one of the most reliable Maura sightings, then gave a lecture to his readers that they should not go about contacting the owners because he doesn't want them to be harassed. This, of course, is coming from the same guy who has repeatedly and flat-out invaded people's privacy by showing up, unannounced and uninvited, on their doorstep to ask questions about this case, then publicly bashing them on his forum when they refuse to discuss the case.

While I still find it to be very suspicious that Maura's friends and family repeatedly lie and evade, I can at least understand why they avoid Renner.

I wrote Renner about a Maura sighting (a waitress) I had far from NH and Canada. I didn't really think it was her because even though she looked just like Maura, it was 12 years ago Maura and it was unlikely she still looked exactly the same. But I didn't want to be the guy who saw her and said nothing. I told him I'd snoop more the next time I went there. When I did, which was the next day, they all were laughing in the place about the strange call they had gotten about the new bartender (who had already quit FYI-- many only last one or two times, they have high turnover of new people) who might have been a missing person. The lookalike did claim to be 24 and her family lived in town. But she did look just like her.

I think Maura very much has that girl next door look - I've seen many females who resemble her (including a coworker, who was pretty damn uncanny, IMO).

But for the most part, her still living in NH and interacting among society in plain sight is perhaps the most unlikely scenario in my mind. Granted, it's not front page news in NH anymore but many still remember the event and I doubt she would have lasted more than 5 years doing that without being spotted.

Now, living a solitary life in one way or another, is certainly a possibility but then you have to ask yourself - Who would voluntarily choose a life for themselves like that? She wasn't a mobster, she wasn't facing life in prison, and she hasn't killed anyone we know of. Seems like crazy choice given her circumstances.

I think it's unlikely, but if she is alive and well, interacting with society and such, she's probably very far from NH.

I think it's important to keep in mind that she probably didn't have great incentive to return to her former life once she moved on. I feel that she's probably moved on to a new location, a new identity and associates with new people. Once a person gets settled into their new life, I doubt they have great motive to return to the former one, especially if that one's filled with embarrassment and failed endeavors (for Maura: the crime, the dropping out, the car wrecks, the boozing, etc). If her relationship with Fred is as strained as is made out to be by some, I wouldn't be surprised if she cut him out of her life completely. And various other members of her family are losers in their own right. I think she does miss the one brother, but whose to say they aren't meeting up somewhere unbeknownst to 99.9% of the population.

Even if you can argue that she wouldn't face severe criminal penalties for her actions, that may not be the biggest point. She simply does not *want* to return to her former life. And really, if you were in her shoes, would you?

I think it's very important for people to keep in mind the amount of money that she took, wasn't it like $4,300 or something? Some people were arguing that it wasn't enough to start a new life. I take it like this: for what purpose would a person (who doesn't plan on running away and starting a new life) have for withdrawing that kind of cash in one weekend, not use it and claim it was for a car that was never bought? Did she just pocket the whole amount and was about town with a huge wad of cash? That just don't seem likely.

Renner has implied Fred put the money back in the bank so presumably MM only had the money she took from the ATM with her, like $400.

Renner has implied Fred put the money back in the bank so presumably MM only had the money she took from the ATM with her, like $400.

Renner likes to imply a lot of things, I'd like to see the hard proof. The reasoning for Fred withdrawing that kind of cash presumably for a car that was never bought has never been satisfactorily explained to me.

Renner likes to imply a lot of things, I'd like to see the hard proof. The reasoning for Fred withdrawing that kind of cash presumably for a car that was never bought has never been satisfactorily explained to me.

Renner is keeping back info for his book. He had a big reveal a couple of months ago supposedly refuting his Quebec theory but he never revealed it. The mention of the money was an aside to a discussion about something else. He doesn't even believe they actually looked for a car. But at best Fred giving the money to Maura is also an unproven assumption. If he did so, why did she go to the ATM and take out a smaller amount of money? And why would he give it to her when he wanted to help pick out the car which, if he was putting it in his name like the old car, would require his presence?

But at best Fred giving the money to Maura is also an unproven assumption. If he did so, why did she go to the ATM and take out a smaller amount of money?

So that she would have as much dough as possible when she moved on to her new life. There are people that believe even with the extra cash it still wasn't enough.

And why would he give it to her when he wanted to help pick out the car which, if he was putting it in his name like the old car, would require his presence?

The plans changed when Maura decided to run away.

Withdrawing 4k still doesn't make sense. If they're walking about town and get mugged or robbed, that money is gone forever. It would be stupid to walk around with that kind of cash and not write a check or use a credit card like most people do when they buy a car.

Doesn't make sense.