Fred's version of what happened to the $4,000 changes again. In addition to none of the stories making sense.

http://mauramurray.blogspot.com/2016/03/fred-changes-story-about-4000-again.html

This post chronicles how easily Maura could have stolen somebody's identity. Maura was known to have used another person's Social Security number and also has a history of theft and identity theft.

http://mauramurray.blogspot.com/2016/02/the-strange-tale-of-lori-g.html

This post chronicles how easily Maura could have stolen somebody's identity. Maura was known to have used another person's Social Security number and also has a history of theft and identity theft.

http://mauramurray.blogspot.com/2016/02/the-strange-tale-of-lori-g.html


but Maura wasn't very good at it, getting caught right away because she had the pizza delivered to her room. She also wasn't very good at shoplifting, getting caught at the PX at Fort Knox and then getting kicked out of West Point.
While these events show a certain sociopathy on her part, they do not seem to show an ability to do a master scheme like creating and maintaining a false identity for over 12 years, no matter how seemingly "easy" it may be. I'm sure she never made it out of northern NH. Someone gave Renner and the podcasters the coordinates for a dump site off the side of a mountain. I wonder if anyone ever checked it out? It wasn't that far from where someone found a backpack at a rest stop that resembled Maura's.

but Maura wasn't very good at it, getting caught right away because she had the pizza delivered to her room. She also wasn't very good at shoplifting, getting caught at the PX at Fort Knox and then getting kicked out of West Point.

I've heard this a lot. That doesn't necessarily mean she stopped though. Most criminals don't stop until they're imprisoned. She would also get better at it over time. It's unlikely that she would simply stop cold turkey and never do it again.

I'm sure she never made it out of northern NH.
You're 100% positive, eh? LOL!! I'm 99% positive she did make it out of there, but I'm smart enough to know there is that 1% chance.

I've heard this a lot. That doesn't necessarily mean she stopped though. Most criminals don't stop until they're imprisoned. She would also get better at it over time. It's unlikely that she would simply stop cold turkey and never do it again.


You're 100% positive, eh? LOL!! I'm 99% positive she did make it out of there, but I'm smart enough to know there is that 1% chance.



since we don't know what we don't know, unlike you and Quasar, I'd never give such ridiculous percentages. I just think the simple and most probable reason someone who has proven incompetent at elaborate or even simple schemes when they disappear is that NH was the end of the line. Attached are pictures of the coordinate site that no one has checked out plus a map of it and the rest area where the backpack was found.

unlike you and Quasar, I'd never give such ridiculous percentages.

ORLY? You literally just said you were "sure" she never made it out of NH. So sure = 100%

You recently downplayed Quasar's excellent website because his maps and pictures are hard to follow and aren't annotated. Fine, but how does that make yours different? Like you said, unless you live in or are familiar with the area, the pictures aren't very useful. Honestly, I think you're just jealous because his website is vastly superior to whatever yours came up with.

If you're so sure she never made it out of the area, then certainly you could prove that...

ORLY? You literally just said you were "sure" she never made it out of NH. So sure = 100%

You recently downplayed Quasar's excellent website because his maps and pictures are hard to follow and aren't annotated. Fine, but how does that make yours different? Like you said, unless you live in or are familiar with the area, the pictures aren't very useful. Honestly, I think you're just jealous because his website is vastly superior to whatever yours came up with.

If you're so sure she never made it out of the area, then certainly you could prove that...

I think your dislike of me is coloring your comments. Sorry for that but I like to look at things using critical thinking and Occam's Razor and not because I like or dislike someone. If you download the pictures the map shows where all the features on the other pictures are based. You might have to be able to read a topo map but otherwise it is pretty apparent. I was just trying to draw attention to the coordinates so someone would check them out. The podcast guys got paranoid and didn't do so. BTW the coordinates are 44 degrees, 06 minutes, 10.0 seconds north, 71 degrees, 27 minutes, 29.0 seconds west near the Desolation Trail. Probably a red herring, but what if it isn't?

I think your dislike of me is coloring your comments. Sorry for that but I like to look at things using critical thinking and Occam's Razor and not because I like or dislike someone.

This is pretty funny, coming from someone who recently told me, in regards to one of my theories: "Occam's Razor goes out the window once again!"

You think I don't like to use critical thinking? I have listed tons of facts on here just in this thread alone about all the things that point to Maura having run away and living life somewhere else. The missing money, the criminal activity, the lying, the evading, the running, much of which is not commonly known among casual observers since the Disappeared and 20/20 episodes didn't address these issues. Most of the arguments for "foul play" center around "Maura wouldn't do that" or "Maura wasn't smart enough for that."

Sure, I suppose it's possible the fact that she cleared out her bank account and left her dorm room like she wasn't coming back was just a coincidence, and it's not at all related to Fred withdrawing 4 grand from 8 ATM's when he could have just as easily withdrawn it from one location had he went inside, and there could be a perfectly reasonable explanation as to why his stories on this keeps changing.

It's also possible Maura was abducted by aliens.

This is pretty funny, coming from someone who recently told me, in regards to one of my theories: "Occam's Razor goes out the window once again!"


it must have been a very complicated theory...

Renner's blog has the live show from Monday posted which talks about a lot of issues including the money and my favorite (not 99percent but I do think they should look closer at him) "suspect" who they don't often mention. Renner aslso beats around the bush about his big reveal he never revealed.

There are no known facts that would even suggest foul play. There were no signs of a struggle, no blood, no eyewitnesses, no signs anyone heard anything, no drag marks, no man's footprints, no nothing. Absolutely NOTHING that indicates she was forcibly taken from some unknown perp whom, by the way, would magically be in the "right spot in the right moment" in this tiny, rural, sparsely populated, low-crime area, where a general store owner said he saw all of 3 cars pass by that night.

On the other hand, what suggests Maura ran away/wanted to get away? Well...

1) She cleared out her bank account or very nearly cleared it out immediately before her disappearance.
2) The unaccounted $4,000 of Fred Murray's, supposedly withdrawn from 8 ATM's by his own admission.
3) the state of her dorm room, with all of her belongings packed up, indicating she was taking off and probably not coming back.
4) The note to her professor, which buys her additional time to get away so that people won't be looking for her sooner than she wants to.
5) The strong likelihood that she would have faced criminal penalties for drinking while driving, the possible loss of her license, the fallout that would have occurred when Fred found out, the social stigma associated with being a young alcoholic and criminal (magnified if she tried to abort a baby this way), the possibility that she could have gotten kicked out of the nursing program/UMass as a further fallout from this, etc.
6) She has a history of being a pathological liar
7) she has a history of running away from her problems
8) she has a history of taking spontaneous trips without telling anyone
9) she has a history of criminal behavior (I think, at the very least, authorities would want to speak to her in regards to the enormous amount of money, time, resources and hours spent looking for her).
10) she has a history of evading

And then you throw in the amount of lies, evasiveness and cover-ups her friends and family have engaged in, the changing stories, the convenient amnesia, etc all when they should have no reason to engage in such things.

Most of the theories of foul play are not based on facts but rather perceptions, such as "Maura couldn't have stayed away for so long" or "Maura wouldn't have any reason for doing that" and so on and so forth.

I certainly know what I believe.

the live podcast discussion was very good. the three postulated theories were suicide abduction and successfully ran away. all were presented very well but Renner's reason for not believing abduction because it was improbable could apply to all three theories.
I think the suicide case would be strong if there hasn't been 12 years and no body discovery. There are a bunch of reasons to not believe the runaway theory-- no real sightings, someone had to help- who? etc.
all the odd events that happened before the accident may explain how MM got there but they really do not explain the disappearance. While there is no evidence of foul play, there is also no evidence for any of the other theories which is one of the reasons the case is so baffling. I think she started to walk towards the nearby house of my contender for local dirtbag and voluntary went into the house (I mean Renner believes the odds of a nearby local dirtbag (LD) are improbable but so are a lot of facts or outcomes of unknown facts in this case) and the foul play scenes were all out of sight inside or at a nearby construction site on the property, if there were even any (probably at least some trace evidence or DNA). Naturally the local did not allow the police the search his property and suddenly remembered an alibi a month and a half after the accident. An ex-cop says the police "know" what happened and who did it but cannot prove it, implying it was the LD, who had been given more than enough time to cover his tracks.
Since we don't know what we don't know, this is all just guesswork.

There are a bunch of reasons to not believe the runaway theory-- no real sightings, someone had to help- who? etc.

Say wha? There have been lots of sightings. Much of them in an English-speaking area of Quebec. Why is this important?

1) It's relatively close to where she disappeared from, meaning she wouldn't have had to travel an absurdly long distance to get there.
2) It's in a different country, in a province where many of the people speak French and far enough removed from the USA (where it's received a fair amount of coverage, to say the least). Meaning that Maura could be spotted by different people there who are unlikely to realize the significance.
3) She didn't have to learn a new language to fit in there (although she may know enough French to get by there).

As for who could have helped, the possibilities are numerous

1) Kate Marapolous, who disappeared herself for a short time during the same time frame, who can't recall hardly anything about the dorm party, which includes not being able to recall a single person that attended said party.
2) Sara Alfieri
3) Fred Murray, who has a huge hole in his alibi
4) whoever she was talking to at the pizza place at a late hour just before her disappearance
5) some person we don't know about.

I think she started to walk towards the nearby house of my contender for local dirtbag and voluntary went into the house (I mean Renner believes the odds of a nearby local dirtbag (LD) are improbable but so are a lot of facts or outcomes of unknown facts in this case) and the foul play scenes were all out of sight inside or at a nearby construction site on the property, if there were even any (probably at least some trace evidence or DNA).

Once again, there were no footprints, tire tracks, scent or anything found that suggests this.

Naturally the local did not allow the police the search his property and suddenly remembered an alibi a month and a half after the accident. An ex-cop says the police "know" what happened and who did it but cannot prove it, implying it was the LD, who had been given more than enough time to cover his tracks.
Since we don't know what we don't know, this is all just guesswork.

Other police members believe Maura got a ride taking her away from the accident.

I don't know who this person is you're speaking of, so perhaps you can enlighten me.

This is pretty funny, coming from someone who recently told me, in regards to one of my theories: "Occam's Razor goes out the window once again!"



I enjoy both JJs and your posts, even if I tend to disagree with you more, I read them and consider them. But I do find it mildly annoying how you post on every case even if you know nothing about it.

I enjoy both JJs and your posts, even if I tend to disagree with you more, I read them and consider them. But I do find it mildly annoying how you post on every case even if you know nothing about it.

I find it extremely annoying that most of your posts are insults at me or other people on here. Not only have I seen most every UM case, I have them saved in my collection. I also have an extensive collection of true crime shows (to put it mildly) and have personally viewed all 9,500 or so cases on the Charley Project, and that's not even the full story on my knowledge. I don't post on every thread (or even close to it) so that statement is not based on fact.

I know nothing about Maura Murray? That's hilarious, since I base my opinions on the actual facts of the case and not perceptions as many other people do. Do you realize how many people out there whose "knowledge" of the case is limited to the faulty thinking that Maura was a smart young lady who never did anything wrong?

Knock it off.

Weird how you are so vitriolic toward this girl, but if anyone suggests Darlie Routier wasn't mother of the year, you'll go ballistic.

Please show me one instance where I went "ballistic".

Other police members believe Maura got a ride taking her away from the accident.

I don't know who this person is you're speaking of, so perhaps you can enlighten me.

None of the Quebec sightings are credible. If they were the case would be closed and the blog shut down (Renner says he'd do so). BTW the whole province is at least partially English speaking, especially in the cities.

Fred has no hole in his alibi. It is documented that he was in Connecticut working his x-ray job. And it defies logic anyway that he'd act the way he did afterwards if he was somehow involved. (Conduct well publicized searches, be all over the media, sue the State of NH to release records).

The person is well known and was mentioned by name in the live show although he is often overlooked. I am not going to mention a living person by name on an internet message board as a possible killer if at all possible. He was a contractor who came up with an alibi for himself and a Maura sighting a month and a half after the accident (he suddenly remembered!) even though he should have noticed the incident the very night since he lived right there across from the bus driver and it was the big story in town for the next few days. (there's more but I won't go into it like his ex saying he did it...)

Maura's scent was tracked a little way up the road heading east then stopped like she got into a car. Would she get into a car if the driver could point out his house a little way up the road? (I live right there. You can use my phone...) What are the odds it was a local dirtbag? (very low according to Mr. Renner) But maybe it was. It was never satisfactory investigated because the person refused to let the police search his property.

None of the Quebec sightings are credible. If they were the case would be closed and the blog shut down (Renner says he'd do so). BTW the whole province is at least partially English speaking, especially in the cities.

I think you're missing the point. People aren't looking for Maura in Quebec. To my knowledge, none of her friends or family have ever visited there looking for her. Neither have the authorities or any of the people searching for her. It's not like they would find her there and drag her back to Mass. The case has very limited publicity up there. It's also impossible to say if she is up there, how often she gets out and what parts she is visiting.

Fred has no hole in his alibi. It is documented that he was in Connecticut working his x-ray job. And it defies logic anyway that he'd act the way he did afterwards if he was somehow involved. (Conduct well publicized searches, be all over the media, sue the State of NH to release records).

Most of his media appearances are to give off the false perception that Maura was a perfect little angel that never did anyone harm. As I just stated, people that searched for Maura stated Fred woke up at his leisure, jogged, ate breakfast, searched for a few hours and quit in the mid-afternoon and held parties in the bar afterwards. Does this sound like someone who is frantically searching for his daughter?

Fred won't commit to an interview unless he has complete control over what is published.

Since Maura could be anywhere in the world, why does Fred keep searching the same area? Why not check Vermont, where she was apparently headed? Why not check Quebec, which is home to a lot of sightings? Why not check places in New Hampshire they liked to visit? Why not check Mass where she lived at the time? Nope, Fred keeps searching the same areas that have been checked by him and hundreds of other people.

The person is well known and was mentioned by name in the live show although he is often overlooked. I am not going to mention a living person by name on an internet message board as a possible killer if at all possible. He was a contractor who came up with an alibi for himself and a Maura sighting a month and a half after the accident (he suddenly remembered!) even though he should have noticed the incident the very night since he lived right there across from the bus driver and it was the big story in town for the next few days. (there's more but I won't go into it like his ex saying he did it...)

Was his alibi corroborated?

Maura's scent was tracked a little way up the road heading east then stopped like she got into a car. Would she get into a car if the driver could point out his house a little way up the road? (I live right there. You can use my phone...) What are the odds it was a local dirtbag? (very low according to Mr. Renner) But maybe it was. It was never satisfactory investigated because the person refused to let the police search his property.

To believe that Maura accepted a ride from this person who lived nearby, you would have to believe that she would gamble with the prospect of him not keeping his mouth shut about the crimes and subsequently blabbing it to police, thereby making her whole process of running away futile. You would also have to believe that she had an apparent reason to turn down help from the bus driver but accept help from him when there was no advantage in doing so.

We keep forgetting one thing here: she crashed her car, likely while she was quite drunk.

She may have had plans of a destination in mind, but she surely didn't plan on losing control of her car and spilling booze all over the interior of it. Nor did she plan on several nearby homeowners seeing her. Maura probably didn't count on all this happening late one cold evening, in a desolate location with no cell reception.

Yet, we continue to assume she was magically whisked away after and just went about her business like nothing happened.

Which friend was driving in tandem with her? Where's the phone calls? The emails? There's nothing to back up that she traveled with any acquaintances that could have just picked her up out of nowhere, no phone call necessary. Even so, that in itself defies all common sense because why wouldn't she just travel with them in the first place and not bother driving her ailing car.

Then of course, one has to ask: why just take the $40 of booze and leave behind $100+ of person items and toiletries. Why lock the Saturn and take the keys if she was never coming back? Why take textbooks in the first place? None of this makes sense.

To think Fred, friends and family have carried on some sort of facade all these years, repeatedly lying to media and TV, complete with fake tears a la the Dissapeared episode is insane. Maybe one of them could have pulled that off, but everyone involved? Quite an amazing coincidence that her whole family and friends are natural born convincing liars.

Had the crash not happened I could almost subscribe to some of that, but that was clearly not part of any plan and set forth a whole new series of events.

We keep forgetting one thing here: she crashed her car, likely while she was quite drunk.

I haven't forgot about it, no. What most people really forget was that Maura drove drunk literally days after causing an accident, put the lives of everyone on the road that night in danger and risked making more victims, on top of the ones she already made through her stealing.

Nobody ever talks about that. Instead, they downplay the theft and go on believing she was the sweet, soft-spoken, intelligent and pretty college student who got nabbed by the "dirtbag".

She may have had plans of a destination in mind, but she surely didn't plan on losing control of her car and spilling booze all over the interior of it. Nor did she plan on several nearby homeowners seeing her. Maura probably didn't count on all this happening late one cold evening, in a desolate location with no cell reception.

Here's a question: Considering she had just gotten into an accident, and considering she was driving what was considered to be an "unreliable vehicle", don't you find it odd that she would drive it a considerable distance to another state, on a night when the weather conditions (snow) made the roads bad and apparently not tell anyone, leaving Fred to speculate she drove out to the mountains to get drunk and "die like an old squaw"? Because I'm pretty sure that's not normal.

Yet, we continue to assume she was magically whisked away after and just went about her business like nothing happened.

Not hard to believe.

Which friend was driving in tandem with her?

Could have been Kate Markapolous (who disappeared for a time during the initial stages of Maura's disappearance), Sara Alfieri or any one of a number of other people.

Where's the phone calls? The emails?

There wouldn't necessarily have to be any. If she talked to them about it in person, there wouldn't be any. And I doubt she'd leave a paper trail.

There's nothing to back up that she traveled with any acquaintances that could have just picked her up out of nowhere, no phone call necessary.

Well, there is an eyewitness sighting from a New Hampshire convenience store clerk that said she sold liquor to 3 out-of-state young ladies that night (2 of whom were from Mass, and the other possibly from NY, where Kate was from). There's nothing to back up that she was abducted.

Even so, that in itself defies all common sense because why wouldn't she just travel with them in the first place and not bother driving her ailing car.

Yes, but why even drive the car in the first place? If she was alone, why even drive that car, which she wouldn't even use for trips around campus or around town, to another state hundreds of miles away during a snowfall AND not tell anyone? That doesn't make sense. If she suffers another accident (which she did) she risks being stranded for a long period of time, in a rural place where she doesn't know anyone and help may be a long way away, with no cell phone reception. Doesn't that defy all common sense?

Then of course, one has to ask: why just take the $40 of booze and leave behind $100+ of person items and toiletries. Why lock the Saturn and take the keys if she was never coming back? Why take textbooks in the first place? None of this makes sense.

Well, she liked to booze it up so that explains why she took the alcohol. She was an alcoholic after all. The locking of the Saturn actually makes it seem more like she ran away. I mean, she just had an accident, the first thing that should be on her mind is getting help, not locking her car.

To think Fred, friends and family have carried on some sort of facade all these years, repeatedly lying to media and TV, complete with fake tears a la the Dissapeared episode is insane. Maybe one of them could have pulled that off, but everyone involved? Quite an amazing coincidence that her whole family and friends are natural born convincing liars.

I don't know that every single one of her friends and family members have engaged in repeated lying throughout 12 years, that is a stretch I would agree. But consider these points:

1) Kate Markapalous can't recall a single significant point about the dorm party just before Maura's disappearance, a party which may give us some significant clues as to what happened to Maura. She can't recall a single person that attended the party, where it was even held or anything else about it.

2) Fred is a known liar. I've talked about numerous times, including recently, the false persona he put on during the searches. There's also the suggestion that he made that Maura's only one big mistake in her life was the car accident that caused thousands upon thousands of damage to his car (not mentioning her stealing the make-up, getting kicked out of West Point, the credit card theft, etc).

Considering they are two of the key people thought to be "in the know", it's not a big stretch to think they have repeatedly lied about things throughout the years.

Had the crash not happened I could almost subscribe to some of that, but that was clearly not part of any plan and set forth a whole new series of events.

Oh, I think they absolutely planned on Maura's car being disabled at some point. Remember, it was an "unreliable car." Perhaps they didn't plan on it being crashed, but I do think they planned on it becoming inoperable at some point.

The sighting of Maura at the grocery store is questionable at best. The clerk came forward YEARS later with this information. Just because one person thinks she saw something doesn't automatically make it true. Eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable and without video we have nothing to substantiate this with, much like every other supposed sighting that never panned out.

While a lot of Maura's actions make no sense, they still are facts. She choose to drove an unreliable car north, crashed it, leaving her stranded alone that night. The rest is speculation, including the notion that she drove in tandem.

Again, there were no calls made to indicate she was in distress and needed to be picked up - there was no cell service. The only way for a tandem driver to theoretically meet back up with Maura would be to 1) realize her car is out of sight 2) turn around and go back 3) find Maura's car and pick her up.

Of course, this all needs to be done after The Westmans become aware of the crash, after she interacts with Atwood but before police arrive.

So it's completely probable that her driving buddy arrives at this specific moment yet it's impossible that anyone else could have came along and interacted with Maura at that same moment....?

the fact is that Maura disappeared so even if that seems improbable, it did happen, so something improbable did happen.
I think the time MM had might be more than is often estimated as police response times in the rural area are longer than in places with a large population and police force. So she may not have disappeared in the flash of an eye, although no one saw what happened. Times involving the accident are all so relative.

The sighting of Maura at the grocery store is questionable at best. The clerk came forward YEARS later with this information. Just because one person thinks she saw something doesn't automatically make it true. Eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable and without video we have nothing to substantiate this with, much like every other supposed sighting that never panned out.

The Murrays tried to discredit the cashier by saying the sighting occurred the day after disappeared, which wasn't actually true. Fred tried to get the camera footage, but wouldn't discuss the sighting publicly, nor did his ex-wife, who later admitted she was wrong. They never pressed for more info or for someone to come forward. Sound like concerned parents?

While a lot of Maura's actions make no sense, they still are facts. She choose to drove an unreliable car north, crashed it, leaving her stranded alone that night. The rest is speculation, including the notion that she drove in tandem.

Agreed. Everything is speculation, including the notion she was abducted by a dirtbag.

Again, there were no calls made to indicate she was in distress and needed to be picked up - there was no cell service. The only way for a tandem driver to theoretically meet back up with Maura would be to 1) realize her car is out of sight 2) turn around and go back 3) find Maura's car and pick her up.

There's also the possibility that Maura was further ahead, with the other driver behind her. In this instance, they would have a much better view of Maura and could have saw what happened in terms of the accident. Either they stayed behind for awhile to stay out of sight, or passed her and traveled a real short distance and waited for her or picked her up.

So it's completely probable that her driving buddy arrives at this specific moment yet it's impossible that anyone else could have came along and interacted with Maura at that same moment....?

Maura likely came into contact with someone after speaking with the bus driver and before the police arrived, which was a short timeframe. What is more likely?

1) The person is a stranger who abducted her, but had no idea she was going to crash there or even be in that area at the time. He scrambles out of the house, offers her help, she accepts (after declining help from several other people) and gets her out of the immediate area without leaving any trace of himself or any possible crime or any eyewitnesses or earwitnesses.

2) A friend or family member that was following her picked her up after seeing what happened.

Again, I certainly know what I believe.

People aren't looking for Maura in Quebec. To my knowledge, none of her friends or family have ever visited there looking for her. Neither have the authorities or any of the people searching for her. It's not like they would find her there and drag her back to Mass. The case has very limited publicity up there. It's also impossible to say if she is up there, how often she gets out and what parts she is visiting.


To believe that Maura accepted a ride from this person who lived nearby, you would have to believe that she would gamble with the prospect of him not keeping his mouth shut about the crimes and subsequently blabbing it to police, thereby making her whole process of running away futile. You would also have to believe that she had an apparent reason to turn down help from the bus driver but accept help from him when there was no advantage in doing so.


The Renner crowd have been looking for MM in Quebec. He even put up billboards. I think he believes she is in Sherbrooke.

To believe that a girl would accept a ride under any circumstances in that situation is somewhat improbable. I think MM did not accept the ride from the bus guy because she hadn't thought through her situation and didn't realize she couldn't call out from there yet. The live show guys think the encounter was confrontational. But I don't think a fat old guy driving a school bus would appear to be creepy. I think Maura thought things over, packed up, locked the car and decided to take up the bus driver's offer. Perhaps before she got too many steps someone stopped and picked her up. Someone who could point out his house. She accepted the offer because her judgement was slightly clouded by booze, the accident and her overall temperament at the time. She must have thought it would be highly unlikely that a local dirtbag was living within sight. But while improbable, it was not impossible. I mean who would have thought Jarrod was doing kiddie porn?

the fact is that Maura disappeared so even if that seems improbable, it did happen, so something improbable did happen.
I think the time MM had might be more than is often estimated as police response times in the rural area are longer than in places with a large population and police force. So she may not have disappeared in the flash of an eye, although no one saw what happened. Times involving the accident are all so relative.

I would suggest the opposite is true. The police were able to get there quicker since it's a small town and they aren't tied up with as much as the police in bigger cities are.

I would suggest the opposite is true. The police were able to get there quicker since it's a small town and they aren't tied up with as much as the police in bigger cities are.

There are less police and the town is large geographically. It looks like it took between 15 and 30 minutes for them to get there. In my small city the police were on the scene within 5 minutes after I called 911 when a woman hit a parked car in front of my house. And they managed to catch her fleeing the scene.

There are less police and the town is large geographically. It looks like it took between 15 and 30 minutes for them to get there. In my small city the police were on the scene within 5 minutes after I called 911 when a woman hit a parked car in front of my house. And they managed to catch her fleeing the scene.

What are you basing this on? The Charley Project page says it took about 10 minutes for them to get there (it was probably even less than that), and I haven't read any accounts stating it took them "a half an hour" to get there. That's outrageous! I know you're trying to blur the lines here and make things seem more questionable then they are to better fit your scenarios, but it's not working.

The Renner crowd have been looking for MM in Quebec. He even put up billboards. I think he believes she is in Sherbrooke.

A few people who devoted a little time looking for a needle in a haystack. I suppose that qualifies. Barely.

A few people who devoted a little time looking for a needle in a haystack. I suppose that qualifies. Barely.

well it contradicts the comment about NOBODY looking for MM in Quebec. And that will probably be a big part of Renner's book coming out in a couple of months, a conclusion I don't personally agree with but will soon become big news.

well it contradicts the comment about NOBODY looking for MM in Quebec.

That may be technically true, but there's a huge difference between fanboi's of the case looking for her and friends, family and authorities looking for her.

Renner is so damn obsessed with the case, he will track down every single lead using his own time, money and resources and flat-out stalk and harass people in order to do so.

Fred's "searches", on the other hand, can best be described as half-assed at best.

That may be technically true, but there's a huge difference between fanboi's of the case looking for her and friends, family and authorities looking for her.

Renner is so damn obsessed with the case, he will track down every single lead using his own time, money and resources and flat-out stalk and harass people in order to do so.

Fred's "searches", on the other hand, can best be described as half-assed at best.

It is interesting that you blow off Renner's searches in Quebec as "fanboy" stuff while writing on an internet message board thread about the case where most people use nicknames rather than real names. I guess we are all fanboys then. At least Renner is a professional fanboy.


What would be gained after 12 years of farther searches in the same area by the police, family and friends? All they can really do is wait for evidence or new information. Fred's interest nowadays is mostly in accusing the police of incompetence.

What are you basing this on? The Charley Project page says it took about 10 minutes for them to get there (it was probably even less than that), and I haven't read any accounts stating it took them "a half an hour" to get there. That's outrageous! I know you're trying to blur the lines here and make things seem more questionable

I am not trying to "blur" anything. In fact I am trying to clarify that it is simply not true that Maura disappeared in a flash and that there was little time available for her to do so. There was plenty of time for her to leave the scene, get picked up or whatever happened, ie. all scenarios....

Based on police records, the original call went in at 19:29 (7:29 pm) from the Westmans who lived right there. The bus driver called in at 19:43. The first police responded at 19:46. EMTs arrived at 19:56 and a fire truck at 19:57.

I said up to a half hour because different times have been given for the accident starting at 1900 (7 pm). But if the Westmans called right away then it took 16 minutes for the first cop to get there. The bus driver had only called three minutes before that. He probably did not rush to call since MM was not hurt and he had to do bus paperwork, so he called maybe between five and ten minutes after he saw MM. We'll split the time and say 7 minutes earlier (19:36) was when he talked to Maura, roughly 6 minutes after the Westman call. That's still ten minutes before the police came. Not a blink of an eye. Just no one was looking when whatever happened happened.

It is interesting that you blow off Renner's searches in Quebec as "fanboy" stuff while writing on an internet message board thread about the case where most people use nicknames rather than real names. I guess we are all fanboys then. At least Renner is a professional fanboy.

My point being that the only people searching for her in Quebec are not directly associated with her. It's interesting that the person chasing down every lead is not a loved one, but someone that's never met her before.

What would be gained after 12 years of farther searches in the same area by the police, family and friends? All they can really do is wait for evidence or new information. Fred's interest nowadays is mostly in accusing the police of incompetence.

Exactly.

I am not trying to "blur" anything. In fact I am trying to clarify that it is simply not true that Maura disappeared in a flash and that there was little time available for her to do so. There was plenty of time for her to leave the scene, get picked up or whatever happened, ie. all scenarios....

Based on police records, the original call went in at 19:29 (7:29 pm) from the Westmans who lived right there. The bus driver called in at 19:43. The first police responded at 19:46. EMTs arrived at 19:56 and a fire truck at 19:57.

I said up to a half hour because different times have been given for the accident starting at 1900 (7 pm). But if the Westmans called right away then it took 16 minutes for the first cop to get there. The bus driver had only called three minutes before that. He probably did not rush to call since MM was not hurt and he had to do bus paperwork, so he called maybe between five and ten minutes after he saw MM. We'll split the time and say 7 minutes earlier (19:36) was when he talked to Maura, roughly 6 minutes after the Westman call. That's still ten minutes before the police came. Not a blink of an eye. Just no one was looking when whatever happened happened.

So if what you're saying is true, there was 16 minutes between the time the Westmans called and when the police arrived, which is about half of the 30 minutes you say "up to."

And in your scenario with the bus driver, there's a 10 minute difference, which is what the CP page estimated the difference in time was there.

So a better estimate, using both the Westmans and the bus driver, would be 10-16 minutes, not 15-30 minutes.

Again, blurring the lines.

My point being that the only people searching for her in Quebec are not directly associated with her. It's interesting that the person chasing down every lead is not a loved one, but someone that's never met her before.



Exactly.



So if what you're saying is true, there was 16 minutes between the time the Westmans called and when the police arrived, which is about half of the 30 minutes you say "up to."

And in your scenario with the bus driver, there's a 10 minute difference, which is what the CP page estimated the difference in time was there.

So a better estimate, using both the Westmans and the bus driver, would be 10-16 minutes, not 15-30 minutes.

Again, blurring the lines.

no once again you are splitting hairs just to be contrary and apparently take personal offense at commentary not directed at you but at trying to come to a general understanding of this case and that the timeline was not nearly as tight for her disappearing as has been often presented.

Since we don't know exactly what time Maura had the accident, and it has been quoted as various times between 7 and 730 pm, the response time is only based on when the first call went in, which is 16 minutes. This response is a bit more than 10 minutes, as the police were already responding when the bus driver's wife called after this about 13 minutes later (probably at least 5-10 minutes after the bus driver talked to MM). This gives Maura about ten minutes (but it could be up to 13-14 minutes depending on how long the bus driver dilly-dallied before going into his house) after she was last seen by the bus driver to disappear, not quite the short period of time ("she was gone in a flash!") often given. She had at least 16 minutes to pack up, throw loose booze into a snow bank, maybe put a rag in the tailpipe and then she had about ten + minutes to disappear from the face of the known earth. Someone should do a test and see how many cars go by in ten minutes or more at that time of night. I'd bet at least one every two minutes, five cars maybe but no one has come forward from the period before the police came but after the accident except the bus driver who had called police.
In ten minutes a lot could happen. She could have got picked up by a tandem car. She could have wandered off down Old Peter Road, a glorified trail. Or a local dirtbag (who maybe lived real close by) could have grabbed or tricked her into going, unable to resist her vulnerability.
nuf ced on this issue.

no once again you are splitting hairs just to be contrary and apparently take personal offense at commentary not directed at you but at trying to come to a general understanding of this case and that the timeline was not nearly as tight for her disappearing as has been often presented.

no.

Since we don't know exactly what time Maura had the accident, and it has been quoted as various times between 7 and 730 pm, the response time is only based on when the first call went in, which is 16 minutes. This response is a bit more than 10 minutes, as the police were already responding when the bus driver's wife called after this about 13 minutes later (probably at least 5-10 minutes after the bus driver talked to MM). This gives Maura about ten minutes (but it could be up to 13-14 minutes depending on how long the bus driver dilly-dallied before going into his house) after she was last seen by the bus driver to disappear, not quite the short period of time ("she was gone in a flash!") often given. She had at least 16 minutes to pack up, throw loose booze into a snow bank, maybe put a rag in the tailpipe and then she had about ten + minutes to disappear from the face of the known earth.

The key sentence there is the last one. She had about 10 minutes to disappear. That is, 10 minutes between the last verified sighting of her and the time the police arrived. Not 30 minutes. Everything else is not wholly relevant.

Someone should do a test and see how many cars go by in ten minutes or more at that time of night. I'd bet at least one every two minutes, five cars maybe but no one has come forward from the period before the police came but after the accident except the bus driver who had called police.

The owner of a store nearby (which would almost certainly be a *busier* location than from where Maura disappeared) said he saw all of 3 cars go by the entire night. Here, in your scenario, you have one car going by where Maura disappeared every 2 minutes. Again, I'd like to know what you are basing some of your conclusions on. Or if you're just pulling stuff out of the air.

In ten minutes a lot could happen. She could have got picked up by a tandem car. She could have wandered off down Old Peter Road, a glorified trail. Or a local dirtbag (who maybe lived real close by) could have grabbed or tricked her into going, unable to resist her vulnerability.

So in ten minutes we have someone, who arguably, didn't plan on abducting a girl that night, learns of the accident, scrambles out of his house with nobody else finding out about it (if the neighbor theory is to be believed) encounters Maura, abducts her, all without making a sound or leaving behind any physical evidence or anything of that nature, takes her out of the immediate area in 10 minutes? And again, if your earlier scenario is to be believed, there's a car going by there every 2 minutes on top of the neighbors and bus driver that are already in the area and know about the accident.

We would also have to assume this is the only abduction/kiling he committed since there aren't any known similar cases that fit the area and timeframe. You had Fred Murray desperately trying to link this to the Brianna Maitland disappearance (a case which, there probably was foul play involved), but nobody really bought it. This was, of course, after he suggested literally hours after Maura disappeared that she went off to commit suicide and "drink herself to death like an old squaw". What a thing to say when a loved one is missing and he presumably doesn't know what happened to her.

There are also some people trying to suggest this was the work of the Connecticut River Valley killer, which is also far-fetched since it doesn't fit his timeframe or m.o. in the least bit.

nuf ced on this issue.

You don't control that quite frankly.

One of the people living in the area immediately surrounding Maura's second crash (I believe it might have been one of the Westman's) stated they heard the sound of a car accelerating just before the crash. This is quite interesting and would tend to bolster the possibility that Maura had intentionally crashed the car that night. I say that because nobody in their right frame of mind would accelerate into a sharp curve. Unless they're really drunk.

The only other possibility I can come up with here is that Maura fell asleep at the wheel (again, alcohol may have played a part in this scenario as well), she woke up and intended to hit the brake pedal but hit the gas pedal instead.

These are the only two scenarios that would really explain the car accelerating immediately beforehand.

There's also some dispute that she took her actual college textbooks. It has been stated the books found were actually reference guides and not textbooks. It's impossible at this point to say for certain if they were related to her coursework and/or were required by her professors or not. I have a college degree and know that professors can require everything from actual textbooks to books a person would read for leisure/general knowledge to "...For Dummies" books. But it does create doubt that she took textbooks for the purpose of studying her coursework.

Fred has finally addressed Renner through an internet posting. Basically, the bulk of his rambling was fuming at Renner because he supposedly stated that Maura returned to Fred's single-bed motel the night of her first crash, and whining that Renner had obviously concluded that father and daughter had shacked up that evening.

Which of course, is nonsense. I have worked in hotels most of my adult life. It is quite common for two people not in a sexual relationship to sleep in a king bed, including in cases where there are no rooms with 2 beds open. This can apply to parent/child, friend/friend and what have you and happens all the time. It does not mean every 2 people that sleep in a single bed are getting it on. The possibility also exists that there was a pull-out couch or rollaway (cot) in the room that one of them slept on.

Of course, Fred never made pleas to find his daughter. But if it's accusing Renner, the police, the government or anyone else of "wrongdoing", Fred's right on top of that. Thank you very much!

So in ten minutes we have someone, who arguably, didn't plan on abducting a girl that night, learns of the accident, scrambles out of his house with nobody else finding out about it (if the neighbor theory is to be believed) encounters Maura, abducts her, all without making a sound or leaving behind any physical evidence or anything of that nature, takes her out of the immediate area in 10 minutes? And again, if your earlier scenario is to be believed, there's a car going by there every 2 minutes on top of the neighbors and bus driver that are already in the area and know about the accident.

you should know from all your Charley cases that people, mostly women, get abducted quickly off a road or a street all the time. Incidentally the guy probably did not come out of his house, he was probably driving by on his way home from work. A few years ago in Overland Park, Kansas, a guy abducted a girl from a busy Target parking lot in daylight and later killed her and no one saw it happen (except an out of frame security camera). Since he did not know her he apparently decided to do it on the spot simply because he liked her appearance (it was hot out). The bad guy was married with kids and had no prior record but was caught anyway.

you should know from all your Charley cases that people, mostly women, get abducted quickly off a road or a street all the time. Incidentally the guy probably did not come out of his house, he was probably driving by on his way home from work. A few years ago in Overland Park, Kansas, a guy abducted a girl from a busy Target parking lot in daylight and later killed her and no one saw it happen (except an out of frame security camera). Since he did not know her he apparently decided to do it on the spot simply because he liked her appearance (it was hot out). The bad guy was married with kids and had no prior record but was caught anyway.

I'm aware of that fact, thank you. This case, however, is unlike most of the ones you described in pretty much every way. I also thought the local dirtbag lived right by there. I still haven't been able to ascertain what this guy's name is because everyone is so hush about it, but I think his initials are TC? I'm familiar with the case you describe although, again, I'm not sure how it applies here.

It should also be noted that Maura was a runner and was trained in military tactics and survival techniques. She would have been able to flee the scene faster than a normal lady and would have been more likely to survive the elements than most women. This is another aspect many don't like to talk about. Pretty much everything gets swept under the rug and they go with the "damsel in distress" route.

I also think the tandem car/truck what have you wouldn't necessarily have to been following directly behind her (or directly in front of her). It could have been a half mile or mile back or something of this nature. As long as the occupants of both cars had directions, there wouldn't have been a huge need to be bumper-to-bumper.

Maura could have easily jogged to the vehicle in this scenario. She could have also ran to a pay phone and laid low until she was picked up. Or if the whole accident was arranged, she could have crashed the car and met up with someone at a predetermined place. Lots of scenarios.

If the crash was intentional, perhaps it didn't go according to Maura's plans. Perhaps she came closer to sustaining an injury than she wanted. This would explain why one observer said she was "a little shook up."

Back to the dirtbag. Since alcohol was involved in Maura's crash, she probably wanted to get as far away as possible, so I don't understand why she would go with "TC" if he lived right by the area. I'm assuming this is why she turned down help from Butch Atwood. Since he lived right there, Maura probably assumed the police would come knocking on his door and a school bus driver wouldn't be too keen on lying and assisting a criminal. But why go with TC? He too lives in the immediate area, so there's no obvious benefit in choosing one over the other. If anything, go with Butch since there aren't too many murderous school bus drivers out there.

I'm aware of that fact, thank you. This case, however, is unlike most of the ones you described in pretty much every way. I also thought the local dirtbag lived right by there. I still haven't been able to ascertain what this guy's name is because everyone is so hush about it, but I think his initials are TC? I'm familiar with the case you describe although, again, I'm not sure how it applies here.

It should also be noted that Maura was a runner and was trained in military tactics and survival techniques. She would have been able to flee the scene faster than a normal lady and would have been more likely to survive the elements than most women. This is another aspect many don't like to talk about. Pretty much everything gets swept under the rug and they go with the "damsel in distress" route.

I also think the tandem car/truck what have you wouldn't necessarily have to been following directly behind her (or directly in front of her). It could have been a half mile or mile back or something of this nature. As long as the occupants of both cars had directions, there wouldn't have been a huge need to be bumper-to-bumper.

Maura could have easily jogged to the vehicle in this scenario. She could have also ran to a pay phone and laid low until she was picked up. Or if the whole accident was arranged, she could have crashed the car and met up with someone at a predetermined place. Lots of scenarios.

If the crash was intentional, perhaps it didn't go according to Maura's plans. Perhaps she came closer to sustaining an injury than she wanted. This would explain why one observer said she was "a little shook up."

Back to the dirtbag. Since alcohol was involved in Maura's crash, she probably wanted to get as far away as possible, so I don't understand why she would go with "TC" if he lived right by the area. I'm assuming this is why she turned down help from Butch Atwood. Since he lived right there, Maura probably assumed the police would come knocking on his door and a school bus driver wouldn't be too keen on lying and assisting a criminal. But why go with TC? He too lives in the immediate area, so there's no obvious benefit in choosing one over the other. If anything, go with Butch since there aren't too many murderous school bus drivers out there.


The initials are RF and are easily discerned because he came up with an alibi/sighting a month plus after the disappearance and his ex-wife accused him of murdering MM. MM was not trained to the extent she could evade discovery in the winter in northern NH. It may have been irresistible that a person in her position would resist an offer to go to a nearby home to use a phone under the circumstances.

The initials are RF and are easily discerned because he came up with an alibi/sighting a month plus after the disappearance and his ex-wife accused him of murdering MM. MM was not trained to the extent she could evade discovery in the winter in northern NH. It may have been irresistible that a person in her position would resist an offer to go to a nearby home to use a phone under the circumstances.

That doesn't make sense. How would you know the extent of her training? If this person's identity is so easily discovered, then why is everyone so hush about it? It may have been "irresistible that she resisted"? Huh?

Maura was a runner. Specifically, she was a distance runner. Meaning that her specialty was running long distances in a short period of time, which, of course, would help her tremendously in this instance since she voluntarily left the scene with the intent (presumably) to get as far away as possible.

Sure, the alcohol and darkness might have effected her times a bit, but she could have just laid low and rested for a few hours, then resumed.

Most people that believe the dirtbag theory believe that because it's just much easier for them to assume she didn't leave the area than one that involves something more complicated. But it's important to remember two things: 1) she was a distance runner, 2) she was trained in survival techniques.

Had Maura been my loved one, I think I would be moving Heaven and Earth to track down and investigate every lead. Has Kate done that? Or Sara? Or Fred? Or Maura's brothers and sisters? Heck, some of Maura's friends even said in the initial stages they thought she ran away, and one of her brothers said the same thing. That was, of course, before said friends closed their mouths and kept them closed.

It's very troubling that the person searching hardest for Maura is not a loved one, but rather a "journalist". I understand Renner is pushy, annoying and speculative and I can understand why he's not Fred's favorite person in the world. That's fine. But the most important thing for Fred should be finding Maura. So why hasn't he put his differences with Renner aside and worked with him to find her? After all, it's Renner who is arguably the most knowledgeable about all the sightings of Maura. Does Fred even know about the Quebec sightings? I just find it very suspicious that Fred is more concerned about trashing everyone (from Renner to the government to the various law enforcement agencies) and filing lawsuits than, you know, *searching for his missing daughter*.

I always laugh at the "Maura wouldn't have stayed away for so long because there was no long-term charges being brought against her." type comments. It's not that easy. I would suggest to these people to stop and think for a moment all the time, money and resources various law enforcement agencies have devoted to finding her. All of the grief she has caused her loved ones and all of the inconvenience she has caused other people to go through. Heck, there is more than one person out there that have been devoting their entire lives to this case, and in one person's case, quit his job because of it. It's not like Maura could just waltz right back into everyone's lives and say "Hey, I'm back, who wants to hit up the bars?". It's more complicated than that. Not everyone would be so forgiving of her.

Actually it would be troubling that the people searching hardest for MM was not "loved ones" but rather law enforcement, the professionals. In this case I think they are the ones who have searched the hardest. Without new evidence some cases are hard to solve. On the recent live podcast one of the commentators who believes it was suicide said if it wasn't RF would be his prime suspect. I discount suicide because it would be hard to hide the body for 12 years. Not too long ago a former NH state trooper implied the police believe it was RF but cannot prove it. (find it on Renner's blog) He refused to let them search his property and has since moved away. He had plenty of time and opportunity to make her disappear.
In this case I think the family did as much as anyone in a similar case to help get it solved. Renner is like anyone on here viewing the case just he is doing so on steroids and will write a book at the end which will probably not make him rich because I think ultimately he won't solve it either.

Not too long ago a former NH state trooper implied the police believe it was RF but cannot prove it. (find it on Renner's blog)

not interested.

He refused to let them search his property and has since moved away.

So either the house is now vacant or there are new owners. Why can't the police search it now? The new owners, if there are any, definitely don't have anything to hide.

He had plenty of time and opportunity to make her disappear.

Once again, I'll ask: Was his alibi corroborated?

In this case I think the family did as much as anyone in a similar case to help get it solved.

Fred did not talk to the police for the first two years, when he finally did, he brought lawyers. The information he gives out to the media is selective.

Fred has not looked in Vermont (where Maura was supposedly headed), has not searched in Mass where she lived, his only searches in New Hampshire were half-assed ones that encompassed the same, tiny section of Earth.

I have also not encountered any evidence that Fred talked to coworkers, fellow students, friends or acquaintances of Maura, people that might have some information on her disappearance.

Her brothers and sisters don't seem that gung-ho on finding her either.

I certainly don't put them in the same league as John Walsh.

Renner is like anyone on here viewing the case just he is doing so on steroids and will write a book at the end which will probably not make him rich because I think ultimately he won't solve it either.

Renner may not solve the case, but he certainly gets more publicity for Maura then Fred does. Fred only cares about trashing everyone attempting to find her. This case has exploded, especially in the last little while, so I wouldn't be surprised if sales are good.

RF's trailer was searched as it was driven down the road by the new owner.

As for the alibi, he gave it a month and a half after the fact disguised as a possible Maura sighting. Since he worked for himself as a contractor and it was so far after the fact, it could neither be collaborated or not. However, since he lived within sight of the accident and the police were there for at least 2 hours afterwards and then there were searches all around, it seems improbable that it would have taken a month and a half to remember he saw a girl running down the road a few miles to the east right before he would have seen police activity near his house/ trailer who were looking for such a girl.

RF's trailer was searched as it was driven down the road by the new owner.

Okay. I guess my next question is: "Did they find anything?"

As for the alibi, he gave it a month and a half after the fact disguised as a possible Maura sighting. Since he worked for himself as a contractor and it was so far after the fact, it could neither be collaborated or not.

He may have worked for himself, but that still means he was dealing with people all the time. Was anyone else able to corroborate this?

However, since he lived within sight of the accident and the police were there for at least 2 hours afterwards and then there were searches all around, it seems improbable that it would have taken a month and a half to remember he saw a girl running down the road a few miles to the east right before he would have seen police activity near his house/ trailer who were looking for such a girl.

I'd like to find out more information on this person.

Rick F did live close by and certainly his explanation of his supposed sighting is unusual. I truly don't know what to make of this guy, but police certainly wanted a closer look. Especially since he refused a search initially by police and flat out refused to speak with John Healy when he arrived at his door.

This definitely seems to fit with some of the statements the former NH LE made on Facebook. Conrad's comments seemingly fit with Rick F, or perhaps another single male who was questioned by police.

I'm going to require something a lot more concrete before I believe this person (whoever he is) may have played a part in Maura's disappearance. I've given several opportunities for those who believe he is involved, and all we have are some vague comments about this anonymous person, who may or may not have been involved. Keeping in mind he would have had to pull off everything in a super-tight time frame and not leave any eye or ear witnesses. There is also no physical evidence linking him to this disappearance, and no apparent proof his alibi has been discredited.

For that matter, there are people out there that believe Butch Atwood himself was involved because, my God, he moved to Florida not long afterwards and wasn't that suspicious? I would tell these people: Do you know how many old people move to Florida? Good Lord. Butch drove a school bus for children, tried to help Maura during her time of need, phoned in help anyway when she declined, and assisted in the search for Maura. This is why foul play is so hard to believe here. The believers of foul play have just not come up with any thing convincing, instead just overplaying perceptions and downplaying all the known facts in the case.

I can't stress this enough: Maura has a history of running away from problems (as opposed to tackling them head on) and all signs (the packed dorm room, the money withdrawals, etc) point to someone who was running away from her life. Once again, I'll ask: Was is it not suspicious that she took an out-of-state trip just days after a serious accident, in an unreliable vehicle and apparently not tell anyone, even her own father, where she was going? Stop and look at all of the pieces of this puzzle. Yes, there are some missing parts, but I think you can get a clear picture anyways. She had a second (or third?) car accident in Haverhill and she ran away from that too.

Maura was a disturbed person. What really kills me about the various forms of stealing she engaged in was that she really didn't need to stoop to that kind of thing. She wasn't a homeless bum, or some dirt-poor kid from a bad part of town. She was a pretty, intelligent youth who had attended some fine institutions, was in a nursing program and on track to land a good paying job (despite her various mistakes) and held several paying jobs at the time of her disappearance. She simply didn't need to steal, and that she did anyways and made victims out of people is indicative of a person with mental issues.

I know some of you formed your conclusions after the Disappeared and 20/20 episodes that glossed over tons of key info and gave us this portrayal of Maura as an All-American girl. You now know that to be a crock. Re-examine your theories and you will realize Maura has fooled you all along.

I think I figured out his name. In any event, it seems highly unlikely he was involved. From BillNH on Websleuths, who as you will see is close to this:


"In addition to this, in 2007, a group also searched the Construction Worker's (the guy who saw a person several miles further east on 112 that night but didn't report it for a few months) property on the corner of Bradley Hill Road and 112. It was searched on 3 different occasions over a the course of a couple months, with cadaver dogs on one occasion. They searched inside the home that was at the time of Maura's disappearance was under construction. They searched the attic and crawl spaces in the home and all the outbuildings and around the entire property. The new owners allowed this search when they were approached after they had bought the property. I know them personally so there is no public verification of this. They had posted that there was a search briefly on the MM Facebook page, then removed it when I explained to them about the high level of interest in this case as they do not wish to be bothered by anyone. I did get the details from them later on. They were told that the searchers found nothing of interest and they would not be back again."

So there you have it. Searched 3 times including with cadaver dogs. Found nothing. Not one tiny speck of blood, nothing.

Again, I know what I believe.

I think I figured out his name. In any event, it seems highly unlikely he was involved. From BillNH on Websleuths, who as you will see is close to this:


"In addition to this, in 2007, a group also searched the Construction Worker's (the guy who saw a person several miles further east on 112 that night but didn't report it for a few months) property on the corner of Bradley Hill Road and 112. It was searched on 3 different occasions over a the course of a couple months, with cadaver dogs on one occasion. They searched inside the home that was at the time of Maura's disappearance was under construction. They searched the attic and crawl spaces in the home and all the outbuildings and around the entire property. The new owners allowed this search when they were approached after they had bought the property. I know them personally so there is no public verification of this. They had posted that there was a search briefly on the MM Facebook page, then removed it when I explained to them about the high level of interest in this case as they do not wish to be bothered by anyone. I did get the details from them later on. They were told that the searchers found nothing of interest and they would not be back again."

So there you have it. Searched 3 times including with cadaver dogs. Found nothing. Not one tiny speck of blood, nothing.

Again, I know what I believe.


When people have pet, often complicated, theories they often ignore inconvenient facts. The individual had plenty of time to cover his tracks and we don't know exactly what happened and what trace evidence would be left, particularly when any searches were conducted much later. BTW RF also moved away, I think to Manchester. The former state trooper who said the police believed they knew who did it also implied that the body was under a concrete foundation. That foundation has never been torn up and searched despite what some unknown person says on websleuths. An actual insider who uses his real name, recently said RF would be his prime suspect if he didn't believe in suicide on a live podcast. I presume this guy knows more about the case than an unknown websleuths guy. While the suspicious nature of the person's late alibi is obvious, his ex wife also accused him of murder. If something mysterious happened a block away from your residence, would your ex accuse you of murder? Also RF refused searches of his property when the trail was still hot. Since we don't know what we don't know, RF may not have done it but any objective analysis of the circumstances, he is the most OBVIOUS suspect. Meanwhile there are theories about tandem cars (with no evidence and no one close to MM disappearing for an extended time), a theory that someone who was incompetent at simple crimes (shoplifting, stealing pizza) could manage to hide in plain sight for 12 years, that the accident was staged, that the police were involved or even Fred the father (who seemingly was only trying to portray his daughter in the best possible light and later pushed hard with the media and police on solving the disappearance) knew what happened or was involved. Given Maura's apparent state of mind, suicide does seem viable (and was Fred's initial theory) but it is pretty hard to hide your own body for 12 years. The local dirtbag theory seems most likely, particularly when there is a viable such person nearby and a likely burial site under a foundation laid after the disappearance, that has never been searched. If I were Fred, instead of pushing for FBI involvement, which accuses the local police, I'd start a go fund me to raise money to buy the edifice with the foundation and have it dug up.

The bus driver is a weak suspect for many reasons. He was not in good physical shape and died a few years later because of it. He did not act suspicious, promptly reporting the incident. His work activities can be tracked. He had a wife and mother at home who could observe his movements closely. He did not have an ongoing construction site at his property. He moved to Florida for his health. It didn't work. He was a bus driver because that was the best job he could get given his health issues.

Like the rest of us I am just an amateur who likes real life mysteries, but in my other life I am charged with looking at past events and drawing logical conclusions supported by evidence and that is what I try to do here as well. But even the most novice police detective knows more than we do on particular cases and the solution to this case may be something no one has even thought of. Whatever it is, I am sure it will seem simple and obvious once it is disclosed because that is how real life works.

When people have pet, often complicated, theories they often ignore inconvenient facts.

I agree. I assume you are talking about yourself by the way. I look at the facts of the case and draw conclusions from that. I don't invent theories and work backwards and make up stuff to fit with said theories such as yourself.

BTW RF also moved away, I think to Manchester.

But apparently, the police still know where he is and he's not far away.

The former state trooper who said the police believed they knew who did it also implied that the body was under a concrete foundation.

Other members of the police believe she got a ride from somebody away from the area. I think this comes out to a wash.

That foundation has never been torn up and searched despite what some unknown person says on websleuths.

We're all pretty much unknown people on the internet. His username is "BillNH", which I assume means he's Bill from NH.

An actual insider who uses his real name, recently said RF would be his prime suspect if he didn't believe in suicide on a live podcast.

That's just it though. He believes she committed suicide. And how would you know BillNH is not an insider?

I presume this guy knows more about the case than an unknown websleuths guy.

Once again, I'd like to know what you base things on. How do you conclude things with such certainty based on things you know absolutely nothing about?

For example, your estimate that a car drives by the area where Maura disappeared from "every 2 minutes". A check of the internet reveals about 7 cars pass by there in a given hour. Or one every 8 and a half minutes. So you were way off there.

While the suspicious nature of the person's late alibi is obvious, his ex wife also accused him of murder.

An ex with an axe to grind?

Since we don't know what we don't know

this seems to be a favorite quote of yours.

Meanwhile there are theories about tandem cars (with no evidence and no one close to MM disappearing for an extended time),

Except Kate. Which is a huge exception.

a theory that someone who was incompetent at simple crimes (shoplifting, stealing pizza) could manage to hide in plain sight for 12 years

Various people have described Maura as "soft-spoken" and "low profile". A person whose girlfriend was in the same nursing program as Maura's posted on Websleuths, stating most people in the nursing program didn't even know Maura existed (until after her disappearance) because she was that low profile. I doubt she's hanging around at large parties wherever she's at today. Probably just tucked away in some small city in another country, away from most people familiar with the case.

You also have to keep in mind this case has exploded in recent times. Maura's aged 12, nearly 13 years now and could have altered her appearance to boot.

that the accident was staged, that the police were involved or even Fred the father (who seemingly was only trying to portray his daughter in the best possible light and later pushed hard with the media and police on solving the disappearance) knew what happened or was involved.

Which doesn't amount to a hill of beans, quite frankly. No evidence of foul play either. Something happened to her, we know that.

Given Maura's apparent state of mind, suicide does seem viable (and was Fred's initial theory)

Yes. Fred told people she would be found "naked and dead" at the top of the mountain, which is another really damn odd thing to say. This was before he changed tune at went with the dirtbag. Odd. If there was any chance whatsoever from the outsight of foul play, wouldn't he have jumped all over that? Or maybe he knew what happened?

but it is pretty hard to hide your own body for 12 years.

Again, she was a distance runner that could have ran a considerable distance from the scene. She was also an avid hiker who could have climbed the mountains. Animals or the elements could have taken their toll.

The local dirtbag theory seems most likely, particularly when there is a viable such person nearby and a likely burial site under a foundation laid after the disappearance, that has never been searched. If I were Fred, instead of pushing for FBI involvement, which accuses the local police, I'd start a go fund me to raise money to buy the edifice with the foundation and have it dug up.

Why doesn't he? Worked for George Zimmerman. No shortage of loons out there willing to waste money.

in my other life I am charged with looking at past events and drawing logical conclusions supported by evidence and that is what I try to do here as well.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this. If you're trying to suggest you have more knowledge and skill at this than we do, well... :lol:

Why doesn't he? Worked for George Zimmerman. No shortage of loons out there willing to waste money.


Yeah, kind of like Renner and his billboards. Remind me how that went again? :lol:

Look, no one knows 100% what happened to this girl, if anyone sleuthing this case produced a solid lead that pointed definitely in one direction, I'd be on board with it in a minute. As of 2016, that hasn't happened yet.

Every theory out there has major hurdles to overcome before it could be accepted as the likely scenario which caused Maura to disappear. Suicide? By what means did she do it? How did she manage to conceal her body over 10+ years? Ran away? By what means did her, by all accounts, financially strapped family manage to afford it? Murder? Well absent a confession there's no suspect or probable cause we know of.

In the end, we're free to believe what we want. Even Renner, who was essentially handed private investigator John Healy's own personal ground work, by Healy himself, went completely against the grain with his own theory despite having all the same info Healy had, which formed the bulk of his blog early on.

Again, we're free to believe what we want. But in the case of the journalist vs. the private investigator, I side with the pi.

Yeah, kind of like Renner and his billboards. Remind me how that went again? :lol:

billboards? Don't think I heard about that.

Every theory out there has major hurdles to overcome before it could be accepted as the likely scenario which caused Maura to disappear. Suicide? By what means did she do it? How did she manage to conceal her body over 10+ years?

I just talked about this above. Copied and pasted: "Again, she was a distance runner that could have ran a considerable distance from the scene. She was also an avid hiker who could have climbed the mountains. Animals or the elements could have taken their toll."

Ran away? By what means did her, by all accounts, financially strapped family manage to afford it?

Maura had secret relationships. The track coach (an older guy) had no idea about Bill Rausch, and vice versa. She had numerous affairs. Certainly not out of the realm of possibility to think she hooked up with someone she met. This person may have financially supported her. She may not even need to hold a job which would help explain why she hasn't been located.

Again, we're free to believe what we want. But in the case of the journalist vs. the private investigator, I side with the pi.

For all his faults, Renner at least done a good job of investigating things and telling us things we didn't previously know. Most of which point away from foul play.

Responding to every line of people's posts. Are you that butthurt by people having differing opinions than you?

jjmgr: You didn't mention that the police officer you spoke of has done some less-than-exemplary things, such as threatening to shoot a police officer. I wouldn't put too much stock into what he says.

Maura's note to college administration was to inform that she would not be there all week. Factor in both weekends, and this comes out to 9 days. Once again, like other things, this points to Maura trying to buy time. I also believe that her locking the doors in her car was to buy time. She's was hoping the smell of alcohol would dissipate in time, which it probably would have. But why would someone committing suicide buy that much time? IMO, this points to voluntary disappearance. She wanted as much time to get settled in her new surroundings as possible. The way she would have it, people would not start looking for her after a week had passed. She also missed clinicals, which was pretty damn huge. She had been lucky enough to get clinicals in the first place, despite the stealing at West Point and fallout from that, and had gotten them ahead of numerous people that had been at UMass for some time and were more deserving of it.

Although there is no evidence that Maura had booked lodging herself, that does not necessarily mean she didn't stay in Vermont, or what have you. She could easily be a guest in a room to whoever booked it. We also know she was looking for somewhere to stay, which is indicative of someone that was planning on getting away.

It should be noted that Maura was familiar with the area she disappeared from, so it's not like she would have ran blindly into the woods, if that is what happened. She knew how to navigate that area. She may have even known about a secret hiding spot or somewhere she could have relaxed for a few hours. Maura also very much enjoyed the White Mountains, referring to it as her favorite place on Earth. If Maura committed suicide, this would be a likely spot she would do it. Knowing that her body might not be found for some time (and in fact, it has not been found 12 years later), she may still "feel at home and at peace" with having it there.

Maura also apparently informed people she would not be going to work, and also gave away her lab coat (mid-semester mind you).

Maura stole twice that we know of. The make-up at West Point, and the credit card, although that spawned off 6 separate charges. I'm willing to bet there are more incidents. As I've stated before, stealing is a compulsion for thieves. They can't control it. It has also been stated that there were other numbers on the sheet of paper Maura produced to the police officers when they asked how she got the credit card number. Maura claimed these were phone numbers, but it has been stated there was no way they could have been. (presumably because phone numbers are 7 digits, 10 with the area code included, where as credit card numbers are 15-16 digits). I feel Maura could have stolen other credit card numbers and ran up more purchases, but if the cardholders were from wealthy backgrounds attending college on their parents dime (as many are) they probably didn't notice or care about the charges.

This may have already been mentioned on this thread and I apologize if so but does anyone see the similarities between Maura and several cases that were featured on um? I believe it was Patricia heeton who got in a car wreck and then vanished. Then there was the other case of the girl who got her car stuck in the woods and then vanished. All these people were dealing with mental issues. It seems car wrecks can be the trigger that sends them over the edge. All of them may have met with foul play or they may have just started over elsewhere. It's hard to say but the similarities are striking

This may have already been mentioned on this thread and I apologize if so but does anyone see the similarities between Maura and several cases that were featured on um? I believe it was Patricia heeton who got in a car wreck and then vanished. Then there was the other case of the girl who got her car stuck in the woods and then vanished. All these people were dealing with mental issues. It seems car wrecks can be the trigger that sends them over the edge. All of them may have met with foul play or they may have just started over elsewhere. It's hard to say but the similarities are striking


the ex state trooper who mentioned the concrete foundation is just one among a chorus of people implying the same thing... he may be a questionable witness but so are many (I won't make a list here). RF made his alibi/sighting on 29 April, almost 3 months after the accident which was a block away from his house! Yet it is mentioned (not the part about where he lived, of course) in almost every short account of the case.

I think the Blair Adams case resembles Maura Murray. Both acted odd ahead of time, Both went on a sudden trip to a place they really had no business being. Blair, however, was found dead. MM is still missing.


Updated news on MM: recent news from one of the many blogs/FBs on the case: In 2006 someone reported odd activity at a lake in Warren, NH involving a red pick up truck (supposedly with Mass plates of green letters- since 1993 MA plates have had red letters, but NH plates have had green letters since 1979) and some clothes that were found that may have been Maura's. This would explain the attention given to the witness at the gas station who saw a red pick up truck at the time of the accident. The police did a dog search there in 2006. warren is a town about 10 miles south of the accident scene.

More on the Alibi Sighting

I found one of the earliest articles recounting RF's alibi sighting, dated 6 May 2004, titled "Police Have New Lead in Maura Murray Case"
The story does not indicate the person's name and does not mention that he lived within sight of the accident:
"... the witness thought shortly after her disappearance he may have seen Murray, he discounted that thought after talking with a friend. His friend had said Murray's accident happened Feb 11 instead of Feb 9. And he had seen the young woman the night of Feb 9. It was after seeing subsequent news reports, and realizing the accident had occurred Feb 9, he decided to contact state police. The man who [was] said [to be] a contractor, checked his work records and verified he was returning home from a job in the Franconia area when he sighted who he and state police believe was Murray."

Although this source was applauded at the time by Fred and LE, it is very fishy even at the time it was presented given the time ("about an hour after the accident") and place where the informant lived (within sight of the accident). If the story were true, how could he coming west on Rte 112 at about 8:35 pm not have noticed the police activity around the car facing the wrong way on the left side of the road? According to police records the car was not towed until 8:49 and the police did not leave the scene until 9:27. The first search took place starting at 8 am on 11 Feb. The contractor didn't notice either of these activities and talked to no one about them in those days? Come on!
Add later fishy actions such as not allowing searches (was this BEFORE 29 April?), checking work records when he was self-employed, ex-wife claims about murder, and jokes about MM being a good cook makes me wonder why Renner blew off this person as a suspect because he seemed to be a good guy who makes music videos on YouTube ? Seems once you get a theory in mind, it is easy to discount the obvious...

I believe it was Patricia heeton who got in a car wreck and then vanished. Then there was the other case of the girl who got her car stuck in the woods and then vanished.

Patricia Meehan and Kristi Krebs.

"... the witness thought shortly after her disappearance he may have seen Murray, he discounted that thought after talking with a friend. His friend had said Murray's accident happened Feb 11 instead of Feb 9. And he had seen the young woman the night of Feb 9. It was after seeing subsequent news reports, and realizing the accident had occurred Feb 9, he decided to contact state police.

I think this answers your questions about why the man "took so long" to come forward. His friend was incorrect about the dates.

Although this source was applauded at the time by Fred and LE, it is very fishy even at the time it was presented given the time ("about an hour after the accident")

Yeah, I'm sure the guy was looking at his clock for the precise time.

and place where the informant lived (within sight of the accident). If the story were true, how could he coming west on Rte 112 at about 8:35 pm not have noticed the police activity around the car facing the wrong way on the left side of the road? According to police records the car was not towed until 8:49 and the police did not leave the scene until 9:27. The first search took place starting at 8 am on 11 Feb. The contractor didn't notice either of these activities and talked to no one about them in those days? Come on!

He probably wasn't aware there was a missing person during the initial stages. Probably just figured it was someone who went off the road, which happens all the time and would be of little to no concern to him.

Add later fishy actions such as...checking work records when he was self-employed

I don't see how this is fishy. Again, if he was at a job, other people should be able to back this up. I have not encountered anything that says his alibi was discredited. Just because you don't like his alibi doesn't mean there's a problem with it.

Patricia Meehan and Kristi Krebs.
Yes Kristi krebs! Her story was so simlar to that of Maura. I think Maura was suffering with the same type of mental issues

Patricia Heaton is the lady on Everybody Loves Raymond

The thing about Petrit Vasi is that the case wasn't (and still hasn't) been investigated. I've heard a lot of people try to debunk the theory that Maura hit Vasi while she was drunk and fled the scene (which of course, would make her guilty of yet more crimes), but the issue is that the case has so many unknown factors that it becomes impossible to say with any degree of certainty that Maura didn't hit Vasi. Heck, Vasi himself doesn't seem that interested in who caused this tremendous amount of damage on him (shockingly and distressingly) so I'm worried we may never know answers there.

First and foremost, I've heard accounts that it would have taken a considerable amount of time for Maura to walk from the campus where she was working security to her car in the parking lot and exit, and that it would have gobbled up most of the break time she was afforded. I can't, don't and won't believe this. I used to work on campus of a major college (specifically Michigan State University) in both the hotel/conference center and the bookstore, which were located at different parts of the campus. In both cases, there was designated parking for employees near to said workplaces.

Now, it might possibly have been a different story if Maura was walking back to her car after classes, but considering she was also an employee, I think she should have and likely was able to park very near where she was working, which means it wouldn't have taken her long at all to exit campus. And considering Vasi was hit only a block away from where she was working, I still think it's a very likely scenario that Maura struck and hit Vasi. And it's not a huge stretch to believe this, considering she got into two other accidents in the days following this.

If Maura did in fact hit Vasi, it also helps explain some of the events that followed. Maura knew there was a chance the vehicle could be traced back to her. She knew she could be charged with various crimes, including fleeing the scene of an accident, drinking while driving, and vehicular manslaughter. She arranges to have the vehicle taken out of state and taken care of. The accident with her Saturn may have been intentional or unintentional, but I believe she intended on not having it in her possession any more (dumping it in a lake, or what have you.)

I'm also not sold on the notion that whatever troubled Maura at work the night of her "breakdown" was related to her sister. The sister even stated their conversation was normal and had ended some time before Maura becoming upset, so it seems something else was bothering Maura. Could it have been the news of Vasi's injuries? Maura's a liar, we know that.

Even Renner has abandoned the notion she hit Vasi. None of the trace evidence from the scene suggests she played a role in it, in fact paint recovered from the accident was of a different colored car anyway.

Would have made a nice smoking gun for the runaway theory but linking her to that accident is about as concrete as arguing she ran away to Jamaica with Brianna Maitland.

Even Renner has abandoned the notion she hit Vasi. None of the trace evidence from the scene suggests she played a role in it, in fact paint recovered from the accident was of a different colored car anyway.

Would have made a nice smoking gun for the runaway theory but linking her to that accident is about as concrete as arguing she ran away to Jamaica with Brianna Maitland.

I know she was borrowing Fred's car around that time, so she could have hit him with that. She also could have borrowed someone else's vehicle. She apparently didn't like to drive the Saturn.

I just came upon a little-known item that seems to be a pretty huge indicator that Maura did not plan on returning to her wrecked Saturn.

Witnesses said that Maura's headlights were off. Additionally, I can't uncover any evidence that Maura had her emergency flashers on, which should have been used since she was involved in an accident. Together, these things seem to indicate Maura did not plan on returning to her vehicle, which increases the odds she got into another car or walked off into the wilderness.

Stuff like that (which isn't in the police report, so who knows) is open to interpretation. One could argue she didn't want to kill the battery and perhaps did want to retrieve the car eventually, without the hassle of needing a jump start. Or maybe the impact jostled the battery, the car stalled and it was disabled. Or maybe the car stalled first.

Regardless, she still felt the need to lock the doors. So that says to me she wanted privacy in terms of her stuff in her car and she wanted the items of her car to stay there.

Certainly we've all forgot to lock our cars at one time or another. Obviously Maura had a lot to think about after the accident and yet she still consciously locked her car, which to me is pretty telling.

Stuff like that (which isn't in the police report, so who knows) is open to interpretation. One could argue she didn't want to kill the battery and perhaps did want to retrieve the car eventually, without the hassle of needing a jump start. Or maybe the impact jostled the battery, the car stalled and it was disabled. Or maybe the car stalled first.

One of the people living nearby said she heard the car accelerate before crashing, so if that's true, that would seem to rule out the car stalling first.

Regardless, she still felt the need to lock the doors. So that says to me she wanted privacy in terms of her stuff in her car and she wanted the items of her car to stay there.

Or she wanted to delay the time the investigators and police could get in there, giving the alcohol smell time to evaporate.

Certainly we've all forgot to lock our cars at one time or another. Obviously Maura had a lot to think about after the accident and yet she still consciously locked her car, which to me is pretty telling.

Are you the same Caffeine as on Websleuths? I thought for sure yeah, but the posting style seems a lot different, so I wasn't sure.

I know we spent some time going over the list of items that were located in Maura's car afterwards. I think it would be important now to discuss what was *not* in her car, and I think this may be even more vital in determining what happened to her.

-the lack of alcohol~ we know that she took more than a few containers of alcohol, but only the dumped out box of Franzia wine was found, plus whatever was in her soda bottle. Considering she must have took several forms of alcohol with her, this would suggest she either got in a car afterwards and planned on continuing to booze it up elsewhere, or it was a contributing factor in her demise when she went out into the woods to escape the police for her actions.

I think it's very telling that she would leave many important items behind, items that she would either need in an emergency or cherish or whatever, but take the alcohol with her.

-the lack of socks/underwear ~ I know another poster pointed this out, I believe it was Ricci. It has frequently been theorized that Maura was getting away for a few days, however we cannot be certain how long Maura intended to be away. The following scenarios are possible:

1) she intended to commit suicide shortly after arriving in New Hampshire
2) she intended to be gone a night.
3) she intended to be gone several days.
4) she intended to be gone around a week.
5) she intended on never coming back.

Scenario number 1 is the only way the lack of a change of socks/underwear can be explained. And in the cases of 3-4, she would have probably brought
several changes of socks and underwear. The reason I didn't lump in 5 with 3 and 4 is because if she started a new life somewhere, it isn't a huge stretch to assume she bought new clothes.

It should be noted that when Maura e-mailed the college higher-ups, she stated she was going to be gone a week or so. If she had really intended that, then why were the extra underclothes not brought?

I just can't imagine why an attractive, sexually active lady like Maura would not pack those items if she had intended to be gone for any length of time.

the lack of winter emergency items ~ A good handful of the items located in Maura's car were emergency kit type items that would have assisted Maura in a variety of problems on the road. However, considering that I hail from Michigan, where the winters are long and brutal, I am struck by the lack of any winter emergency items in Maura's car. Considering this was early February in the Northeast, it would have been absolutely essential for Maura to carry at least an ice scraper and/or snowbrush. I can't imagine anyone in the North not having one in the winter.

And considering Maura was driving an "unreliable" vehicle, on an out-of-state trip, after having at least one prior accident in the preceding days and nobody reportedly knew about her plans, it also would have behooved Maura to pack additional winter emergency items, such as a blanket, hat, kitty litter, shovel and what have you. That she had none of these items is baffling.

What this means to me is that Maura either intended on committing suicide and didn't care if she got stranded since she figured she was going to die anyways, or she knew the friends in the tandem car could have assisted her in the event of a car problem, or she knew she was leaving the car behind and didn't bother to pack the winter items for one last trip out.

The lack of sleeping pills in the one box ~ I find this to be very troubling, actually. There would be no reason for a person to take an empty box of anything on a road trip, unless it was being used to store something else (which we can assume didn't happen here since the box of sleeping pills would have been very small.) I think it's a possible scenario that Maura had intended to commit suicide in some fashion with the combination of sleeping pills and alcohol. Perhaps she popped the sleeping pills beforehand and when she got sleepy enough, planned on finishing herself off with the alcohol. That would also explain the car accident as she crashed due to tiredness and thus had to alter plans somewhat. The additional sleeping pills found in the car seems to bolster this theory.

Final Thoughts ~ - I'm not entirely sure where I'm going with all this, but I just find the lack of certain items to be very strange and is yet another part of the mystery. Are there any other items missing you find to be troubling or puzzling?

Are you the same Caffeine as on Websleuths? I thought for sure yeah, but the posting style seems a lot different, so I wasn't sure.

Yeah, that's me. There's a few forums I bounce around ideas about the case, all of which are quite slow right now. I'm still hopeful as to getting some answers here but at the same time I simply wonder if this is one of those no closure type deals.

Regardless of what happened, there sure are an awful lot of people interested. :D

Yeah, that's me. There's a few forums I bounce around ideas about the case, all of which are quite slow right now. I'm still hopeful as to getting some answers here but at the same time I simply wonder if this is one of those no closure type deals.

Regardless of what happened, there sure are an awful lot of people interested. :D

Websleuths seems really active, although granted I only lurk there occasionally. Heck, I noticed there are 13 threads about Maura Murray alone. But yeah, I know what you mean about the case being popular. It also seems there were literally thousands of posts about the case on Topix. For whatever reason, I think the case exploded this decade, probably in part due to the Disappeared episode and Renner's blog, the former coming out in 2010 and the latter not much later after that. I've seen numerous people reference the Disappeared episode when stating what prompted them to research the case online. They probably got more than they bargained for as there are so many aspects to this case, all of them are so mysterious.

I've read various posts elsewhere that stated it was a huge deal that Maura skipped out on clinicals. Clinicals are essentially observation of an actual patient (as opposed to book work). Apparently, the clinicals are very hard to come by as spots are extremely limited and Maura was lucky to get into a spot in the first place (also factoring in the stealing and the disciplinary action from West Point). It was bad enough that she lied and skipped out on her regular coursework and 2 jobs to go drinking and driving, but missing clinicals would have most definitely landed her in hot water with UMass. My understanding with clinicals it's a "one and done" deal, where if you miss one, you're out of the program. I think between Maura's blowing it off, combined with the stealing and everything else, she wouldn't be allowed back into the nursing program and possibly UMass altogether, and she knew this.

I've read various posts elsewhere that stated it was a huge deal that Maura skipped out on clinicals. Clinicals are essentially observation of an actual patient (as opposed to book work). Apparently, the clinicals are very hard to come by as spots are extremely limited and Maura was lucky to get into a spot in the first place (also factoring in the stealing and the disciplinary action from West Point). It was bad enough that she lied and skipped out on her regular coursework and 2 jobs to go drinking and driving, but missing clinicals would have most definitely landed her in hot water with UMass. My understanding with clinicals it's a "one and done" deal, where if you miss one, you're out of the program. I think between Maura's blowing it off, combined with the stealing and everything else, she wouldn't be allowed back into the nursing program and possibly UMass altogether, and she knew this.

Nurse here. Clinical is not something students typically compete for in most nursing programs (they're already scheduled for you in most cases. Each program is different, though), BUT I can confirm that it's not something you even think about blowing off. You can be dismissed from most programs for skipping even one clinical day without an emergency. That's how it worked in mine. I can't imagine a big university program like UMass's would be much different.

I came across an interview someone conducted with Maura's shift supervisor a few years ago. Here are some of the most interesting nuggets, which will be followed by my takeaways. Quotes from the supervisor are in parentheses.

"I walked right up to her desk, and noticed right away that her cell phone was on the desk. The reason I noticed this was, we had a big policy against cell phones, as they were distracting to receptionists, and that was one of our big things to check for when on rounds to make sure they weren't out. But anyways, that was the least of my worries, as I was more worried about her emotional state at that point.”

and then...

"When Maura didn't ask for their ID, I knew at that point that she was not in a good emotional state to stay on duty."

This proves my earlier theory that Maura was breaking the rules by having her cell phone out and using it. In fact, the supervisor one-ups me on that, stating it was a "big policy" and one of the first things they checked for. Considering the fact that it has become apparent that Maura made numerous personal calls on duty that night, while simultaneously neglecting her duties, it might have resulted in disciplinary action against Maura, but the supervisor was too concerned about her emotional state at the time, so Maura would have lucked out in this instance as well.

"I swiped her into her dorm, used my key to get her into the elevator lobby, told her I was worried to leave her alone like this, she told me she had a roommate so it was OK (Found out later she lived in a single),"

Yet another lie from Maura.

On the original series with Robert Stack no but they did a short presentation with her dad on their You Tube channel.

I'm starting to get more "comfortable" with the idea that Maura either perished due to the elements or committed suicide. I've never been to New Hampshire, so I won't pretend to know about the area near White Mountains where she disappeared from. But I've read numerous posts that describe it as "extremely remote wilderness", and some areas are virtually inaccessible to humans and dogs and the helicopters wouldn't have spotted her either. Again, I can't personally vouch for that as I've never been there, but I think that helps shoot down the whole "she would have been found by now" bunk that some people put forth. Heck, Charley Project is filled with cases of people that "should have been found."

What are the odds of Maura running into foul play the same day she left UMass for good (which all signs point to) and ran away from her problems again and disappeared from such a remote, sparsely populated, low-crime area in an ultra-narrow time frame? About as likely as Theresa Knorr winning the Mother-of-the-Year award.

With suicide and getting lost in the woods, they both entail blindly heading out in the elements as a conscious decision. I lived in NH for nearly 20 years and under either circumstance, that is quite insane to me. Granted, the weather was reportedly not as bad as it could have been but no matter now you slice it, 30 degrees is cold. The sun was down and the temps would have continued to drop.

As far as suicide goes, that would have to be the most long, drawn out and unpleasant way to die. IMO, most people opt for quick and painless. It is supposed to be a permanent escape not further punishment. Sure, one could argue the crash may have altered a potential plan of suicide at a warm hotel but faced with freezing to death while drunk I would have sought another method for sure.

Getting lost in the woods is even more perplexing because it would go against all common sense. Hiding out on the outskirts of the woods to avoid police, I get that, but to venture further and further into the woods presumably with no flashlight, no waterproof boots, less than ideal attire etc. At some point you would just have to wonder why she wouldn't turn back and try to bring herself back to Rt 112.

We don't even know if she had a flashlight with her, so I can't fully grasp how she could have even made much distance from the car at all that night, let alone distanced herself enough to never be found. Orientating yourself in the dark isn't an easy task. If I recall correctly there is a small river that runs parallel to 112 on the east, likely frozen that time of year but faced with that I probably would have went west, but again, this is all in the dark and she likely didn't have the ability to judge terrain before crossing it in her case.

In NH I've faced horrible conditions unprepared many times. From falling into the Atlantic ocean in December trying to retrieve my friend's paddle boat, chasing loose dogs in a t shirt in February, running through the woods late at night without water proof shoes (Yes, that is a long story)...to be that cold and numb is uncomfortable and not something I could purposely endure for a long time at all.

With suicide and getting lost in the woods, they both entail blindly heading out in the elements as a conscious decision. I lived in NH for nearly 20 years and under either circumstance, that is quite insane to me. Granted, the weather was reportedly not as bad as it could have been but no matter now you slice it, 30 degrees is cold. The sun was down and the temps would have continued to drop.

As far as suicide goes, that would have to be the most long, drawn out and unpleasant way to die. IMO, most people opt for quick and painless. It is supposed to be a permanent escape not further punishment. Sure, one could argue the crash may have altered a potential plan of suicide at a warm hotel but faced with freezing to death while drunk I would have sought another method for sure.

Getting lost in the woods is even more perplexing because it would go against all common sense. Hiding out on the outskirts of the woods to avoid police, I get that, but to venture further and further into the woods presumably with no flashlight, no waterproof boots, less than ideal attire etc. At some point you would just have to wonder why she wouldn't turn back and try to bring herself back to Rt 112.

I understand your point. However, I cannot fathom how some people can slit their wrists. Or commit hara-kiri. Does happen though.

The possibility also exists that she got injured out in the wilderness. Perhaps her plan was to hide out for a few hours and return when things died down, but she sustained some sort of injury that prevented her from getting back and she succumbed.

From what I know of Maura, she was a very impulsive person. Her stealing was not planned out, it was impulsive. And in this instance, she may have been impulsive as well. She crashes the car while drinking, doesn't want to deal with the fall-out and leaves on a whim.

We don't even know if she had a flashlight with her, so I can't fully grasp how she could have even made much distance from the car at all that night, let alone distanced herself enough to never be found. Orientating yourself in the dark isn't an easy task. If I recall correctly there is a small river that runs parallel to 112 on the east, likely frozen that time of year but faced with that I probably would have went west, but again, this is all in the dark and she likely didn't have the ability to judge terrain before crossing it in her case.

In NH I've faced horrible conditions unprepared many times. From falling into the Atlantic ocean in December trying to retrieve my friend's paddle boat, chasing loose dogs in a t shirt in February, running through the woods late at night without water proof shoes (Yes, that is a long story)...to be that cold and numb is uncomfortable and not something I could purposely endure for a long time at all.

I've been meaning to address this issue. You are correct in that we don't know for sure all what she took with her, outside from a few bottles of alcohol apparently. However, I've read some recent discussion that stated she did take a backpack with her on her journey to New Hampshire. Some have speculated that this could be confirmed by the video footage of her at the ATM wearing the backpack, but it's not being released for whatever reason.

It seems very likely to me that she did take a backpack. I mean, what college student would take books, paperwork, a pen and pencil but no backpack? And who knows what she could have had in there.

I really can't fathom a woman not having a flashlight in her car. Since no flashlight was found in her car, does that mean she took it with her?

As I recently stated, there was a strange lack of winter emergency items in her car. No blanket, extra socks or even an ice scraper or snowbrush. At this point, a person can better understand how she might venture off into the cold wilderness on a whim. She simply hadn't thought about the possible consequences.

The flashlight thing has always bugged me because I think that could really make or break the idea of her venturing into the woods. I just can't see someone blindly moving around out there in the dark without the aid of some sort of light. So that definitely remains a mystery.

I've had a fee cars break down at night before and without a light you are kind of stuck. On a clear night the moon helps, as do any street lights but to move away from that into a dark, shady area would really put you in a bad situation. Having a cheap plastic camping type light isn't much better, those tend to fail when you most need them or only work if the battery makes contact just the right way.

Just for that alone I've ditched all my old lights for more reliable and modern ones for the car and at home. Heck, I even gift good flashlights just as a practical tool to have around.

Without a doubt had Maura had one I'd be quite inclined to think she went into woods or surrounding areas.

The flashlight thing has always bugged me because I think that could really make or break the idea of her venturing into the woods. I just can't see someone blindly moving around out there in the dark without the aid of some sort of light. So that definitely remains a mystery.

I've had a fee cars break down at night before and without a light you are kind of stuck. On a clear night the moon helps, as do any street lights but to move away from that into a dark, shady area would really put you in a bad situation. Having a cheap plastic camping type light isn't much better, those tend to fail when you most need them or only work if the battery makes contact just the right way.

Just for that alone I've ditched all my old lights for more reliable and modern ones for the car and at home. Heck, I even gift good flashlights just as a practical tool to have around.

Without a doubt had Maura had one I'd be quite inclined to think she went into woods or surrounding areas.

I researched and as it turns out, the moon was mostly full on February 9, 2004: the date of her disappearance

http://en.tutiempo.net/moon/phases-february-2004.htm

So that would have worked to her benefit had she ventured out into the wilderness.

There's also the situation of the Not Without Peril book. Like everything else about the case, the meaning is disputed. Some people believe it's a book about death and suggests Maura committed suicide. Others believe Fred's claim he wanted every one of his kids to read it and it was Maura's turn, so that's why she had the book (which is bunk because it was her favorite book and she read it multiple times).

A common belief is that the book is about various adventures people have had on the White Mountains, in which several people took risks and died. Some have stated that Maura wanted to take an adventure on the Mountains, knowing she could possibly die from it. The crash with the Saturn prompted her to accelerate her plans.

At that point, Maura may not have cared whether she lived or died. Things were accumulating for Maura. She wrecked multiple cars, she was getting kicked out of a second college, she was facing revocation of her license, problems with Billy, the possibility she committed more credit card fraud and it was going to be found out and the fall-out from that, etc. She went to the White Mountains. If she lived, she'd get to tell everyone about her adventure. If she died, she could have her own chapter in an updated version of her favorite book and pass away in her favorite place in the world. She may have been comfortable no matter which of those two scenarios happened.

I haven't read Not Without Peril, so I won't pretend to know what it's about. And truth be told, it may not mean much of anything. But I think it does answer the question of why Maura could have wanted to spend her last moments in the White Mountains, if that is indeed what happened.

This case reminds me of Michael Rosenblum's death. Rosenblum "vanished" for 8 years before any trace of him was found (nearby where his abandoned car was found), and then an additional 4 years before the results of the remains were verified as being Rosenblum. I think Maura Murray is dead, and still remains to be found.

Whatever lies in what happened to this young woman is remarkable by any means. From venturing through the woods so far she is not found for over a decade, or running away undetected, or was part of the perfect crime.

I hope with all the recent interest, a lead surfaces and we get closer to the answers. Hopefully sooner than later.

Whatever may have happened, someone knows something and human beings are historically bad at keeping secrets forever.

I think it's important to remember that Maura was not a rational person in terms of dealing with problems. For example, when confronted with the credit card theft, she lied and evaded.

To some, it might seem irrational that she would go off into the mountains on a cold, dark winter night, or flee to Canada. But when you combine her irrational approach to problems, combined with her drinking, possibly tiredness and culmination of all the issues with her life, running off probably seemed like a good idea to her. It may not make sense to us, but it did to her.

-November 2003, she was arrested for using a stolen credit card.
-February 4th, 2004 was the date she had a breakdown at her work.
-February 7th, 2004 was the date she crashed her father's car into a guard rail.
-February 9th, 2004 was the date she crashed her car and disappeared.

I find it hard to believe, that if she was still alive, she hasn't done something that would have put her on the radar. She was obviously in a downward spiral in her life around the time she disappeared.

Personally, I find Fred Murray to be very suspicious. A lot of things he says and does just don't gel with me:

First, his statement that "We'll find Maura naked atop the mountain" not longer after she disappeared is a very odd thing for a father to say. Shortly after this, he switched theories and said "a dirtbag grabbed her."

The thing about this is that in these type of situations, most of the time parents will believe (and want to believe) their child is still alive. Even when things look bleak, they will not give up hope their child is alive.

So not only does Fred apparently give up hope immediately, but also says where and how they will find her. Like he has advance knowledge of it.

Furthermore, his statement that "she came up here to get drunk and die like an old squaw" is a very odd thing for someone who normally paints his daughter in the very best light (even at a time when she was making a ton of mistakes that caused other people to suffer.)

It's like Fred was putting out various scenarios, perhaps to detract people from what really happened to Maura?

Additionally, his statement that he told Maura to stuff the rag into the tailpipe because the car was having mechanical problems is extremely odd. Since he did not know the rag came from Maura or a perp, you would think he would pounce on the possibility the "dirtbag" placed it in there. And pretty much everyone knows you don't stuff a rag into a tailpipe to begin with.

I also do not believe his claim that he did not get mad at Maura for wrecking his brand new car and sustaining nearly 10k in damages. Considering that she may have been drinking, and that she had no apparent reason to drive the car back in the middle of the night, and it left him with no transportation to get to his job, I really can't see him blowing it off like it was no big deal.

The 4k withdrawn from many ATM"s for a car they never bought is also incredibly odd.

When you take all this into account, and combine it with his known lying, evasiveness, creepiness, abrasiveness, tendency to exaggerate, alcoholism and the phony scenes he puts on during the searches, I find that he most likely knows what happened to her and possibly had a hand in whatever happened to her himself.

One thing I might add, I think if Fred genuinely knew where Maura was...as in aiding and abetting in her orchestrated disappearance, he would have called it a day and stopped doing any sort of interviews with the media. I mean, what's the point? Outside of the 10th anniversary this really hasn't cracked major news outlets lately. It seems silly to keep up a facade when few even still have this on their radar, at least locally.

I doubt he knows where she is, regardless of what happened. If he did I think he'd want this to quickly fade into obscurity. But just recently he did a radio interview, so he still seems to want attention to this case.

I think his gut reaction to the events were normal. He experienced a few stages of grieving. First was anger. He knew Maura was having a hard time so he initially thought suicide. That she just ran away to kill herself. But her body wasn't found, and I genuinely think he expected that in the first year.

Finally the acceptance kicked in. Her body wasn't found, so maybe it wasn't suicide after all. He settled with foul play, because, well she's gone and there's no body. Let's just pretend for a second that there is zero chance Fred has any hand in this...to me, it seems like a reasonable set of conclusions on his part and not suspicious to me at least. Plus, we can't forget he attempted to sue the state of NH for their case files.

Regardless I think he wants answers like anyone else.

Ugh! This isn't even an UM case and this thread is endless!

Ugh! This isn't even an UM case and this thread is endless!

LOL! It was moved to one of the sub-forums at one point, then quickly moved back, something of an unsolved mystery itself.

The OP did mention UM in the thread title, asking if it was ever profiled on the show, so maybe that's what's keeping it around here.

I'll admit it is a fascinating case. There are so many moving pieces/parts. It's quite strange. Living in Canada, I've often thought of making a trip to Sherbrooke and snooping around to see if there is any truth to the rumours of Maura living there.

One thing I might add, I think if Fred genuinely knew where Maura was...as in aiding and abetting in her orchestrated disappearance, he would have called it a day and stopped doing any sort of interviews with the media. I mean, what's the point? Outside of the 10th anniversary this really hasn't cracked major news outlets lately. It seems silly to keep up a facade when few even still have this on their radar, at least locally.

I doubt he knows where she is, regardless of what happened. If he did I think he'd want this to quickly fade into obscurity. But just recently he did a radio interview, so he still seems to want attention to this case.

I think his gut reaction to the events were normal. He experienced a few stages of grieving. First was anger. He knew Maura was having a hard time so he initially thought suicide. That she just ran away to kill herself. But her body wasn't found, and I genuinely think he expected that in the first year.

Finally the acceptance kicked in. Her body wasn't found, so maybe it wasn't suicide after all. He settled with foul play, because, well she's gone and there's no body. Let's just pretend for a second that there is zero chance Fred has any hand in this...to me, it seems like a reasonable set of conclusions on his part and not suspicious to me at least. Plus, we can't forget he attempted to sue the state of NH for their case files.

Regardless I think he wants answers like anyone else.

Meh. Fred is all show, much like what he does in his "searches" for Maura.

I think he probably feels guilty in some capacity, whether he was directly or indirectly involved. If he berated her for crashing his car and that led to her disappearance, he could be doing all this as an attempt to apologize to her. It could help explain why he kept hush about all her wrongdoings. He got her exposure and tried to create this legacy for her, which involved keeping silent about the theft, etc. What he didn't plan on was a persistent man by the name of James Renner. He wanted America to fall in love with the All-American Girl, but he didn't plan on the case winding up to be so mysterious.

I don't believe his reactions are normal at all. I would think fear would be the first thing running through his mind, but he already concluded she was dead. No parent in their right mind is going to give up on their child that easily, especially since there was a high possibility she was still alive at that point. It's not normal in the least.

He quickly changed gears to foul play (not a year later, but days later).

The case ended up getting a lot of media exposure, so Fred took that and ran with it. Perhaps he didn't plan on being in front of the camera a lot, but he thought people would find it suspicious if he *wasn't* on camera, so he had to put up a façade.

The lawsuit was likely all show as well. I say that because he didn't get the files he asked for. It's an ongoing investigation and they aren't going to release them. He probably knew that.

I'll admit it is a fascinating case. There are so many moving pieces/parts. It's quite strange. Living in Canada, I've often thought of making a trip to Sherbrooke and snooping around to see if there is any truth to the rumours of Maura living there.

Why there has never been an organized search there is beyond me. Renner has pretty much spearheaded the idea that she is in hiding in the area, yet never thought to form a group to thoroughly search the area. Sure, he went up there with the two documentary guys but imagine the area you could cover with like 50 locals, and scores of other people who would likely volunteer in their free time.

This could easily rule out or support the theory and for whatever reason hasn't been done.

Why there has never been an organized search there is beyond me. Renner has pretty much spearheaded the idea that she is in hiding in the area, yet never thought to form a group to thoroughly search the area. Sure, he went up there with the two documentary guys but imagine the area you could cover with like 50 locals, and scores of other people who would likely volunteer in their free time.

This could easily rule out or support the theory and for whatever reason hasn't been done.

It would be a huge invasion of privacy if he did find her. There's no law that says she can't run away. Granted, invading people's privacy never stopped Renner before, but what would he do if he did find her? He can't bring her back down here, and he might come off as looking weird(er?) in the process.
I don't agree with a lot of things Maura has done, but if I were her, I'd be mortified if someone traveled to another country after all this time to out me just because they wanted an addendum to their novel. Just like I'd be mortified if I were Bob Bean and some random person called me decades after the fact and said "Hey, remember that time you were accused of murder? Would you care to talk about it?"

It could also be a case of her being up there and still not being discovered. She's been known to keep a low profile. While I don't think her case is very publicized in Canada, I still think she's avoiding large crowds.

I haven't read through the entire thread I'm kind of just jumping in here. I have followed this case for a while now. I got told that the cop that went to take the report went radio silence for 2 hours after he arrived at the scene. When you put all the facts on the table it can only really be the cop or the bus driver who did something to her but the bus driver is dead now.

I haven't read through the entire thread I'm kind of just jumping in here. I have followed this case for a while now. I got told that the cop that went to take the report went radio silence for 2 hours after he arrived at the scene. When you put all the facts on the table it can only really be the cop or the bus driver who did something to her but the bus driver is dead now.

The bus driver gets brought up a lot because he was the last person known to see Maura, so in a sense I understand the suspicion. However, at the time he was older, overweight, had a myriad of health issues. Not to mention he lived at the house with his wife and elderly mother AND volunteered later that night to take a quick drive around and see if he could assist police in locating her. I just don't think he would have been capable of so quickly capturing a much healthier, younger female in that time frame out of sight from neighbors and his own family.

Though, according to James Renner, the private investigator John Healy who worked the case for years was especially skeptical of the bus driver, Butch Atwood. You can read the account here (http://mauramurray.blogspot.com/2011/09/credit-fraud-and-lying-witnesses-what.html).

It seems as if his accounts differed a bit about what he saw. Healy even went to Florida to again talk to Atwood after he moved. It's hard to say what Healy may have truly thought, but to travel from NH to FL, pro bono I believe, surely means that he felt Atwood was not telling them something. Again, I don't think he was involved in any way but based on what Renner is relaying to his blog, the investigator felt there was more to it than what Atwood was stating. Healy goes to speculate Butch may have seen Maura be picked up, but he was scared to come forward and say who it was. Which I suppose could go hand in hand with police involvement.

I'd love to hear more from Healy about this case. He's probably interviewed the same, if not more folks than Renner. Different perspectives are refreshing sometimes.

The bus driver gets brought up a lot because he was the last person known to see Maura, so in a sense I understand the suspicion. However, at the time he was older, overweight, had a myriad of health issues. Not to mention he lived at the house with his wife and elderly mother AND volunteered later that night to take a quick drive around and see if he could assist police in locating her. I just don't think he would have been capable of so quickly capturing a much healthier, younger female in that time frame out of sight from neighbors and his own family.

Though, according to James Renner, the private investigator John Healy who worked the case for years was especially skeptical of the bus driver, Butch Atwood. You can read the account here (http://mauramurray.blogspot.com/2011/09/credit-fraud-and-lying-witnesses-what.html).

It seems as if his accounts differed a bit about what he saw. Healy even went to Florida to again talk to Atwood after he moved. It's hard to say what Healy may have truly thought, but to travel from NH to FL, pro bono I believe, surely means that he felt Atwood was not telling them something. Again, I don't think he was involved in any way but based on what Renner is relaying to his blog, the investigator felt there was more to it than what Atwood was stating. Healy goes to speculate Butch may have seen Maura be picked up, but he was scared to come forward and say who it was. Which I suppose could go hand in hand with police involvement.

I'd love to hear more from Healy about this case. He's probably interviewed the same, if not more folks than Renner. Different perspectives are refreshing sometimes.
Wow i didnt know that about Butch Atwood, that Healy felt he was holding back. I really have a feeling Police are involved because thats why the FBI havent got involved

Wow i didnt know that about Butch Atwood, that Healy felt he was holding back. I really have a feeling Police are involved because thats why the FBI havent got involved

In the latest podcast Butch was brought up (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0O1jPqDWms) in regard to him failing some of of his polygraph tests, however the NH attorney general had no real comment on it. Again, I don't think he's involved but it certainly raises the question that maybe he's withholding something.

I don't know what to think anymore. But it's been 12 years. We haven't found her body in the woods. There hasn't been a credible sighting of her ever. Whatever happened to her after the accident, I believe she's dead and it's a result of the actions of another person.

In the latest podcast Butch was brought up (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0O1jPqDWms) in regard to him failing some of of his polygraph tests, however the NH attorney general had no real comment on it. Again, I don't think he's involved but it certainly raises the question that maybe he's withholding something.

I don't know what to think anymore. But it's been 12 years. We haven't found her body in the woods. There hasn't been a credible sighting of her ever. Whatever happened to her after the accident, I believe she's dead and it's a result of the actions of another person.
I have only listened to certain episodes of the podcast, it is very long and complex and sometimes I'm too tired to take it all in lol. Have you listened to the one with the psychic? I will listen to this one you just posted now.

In the latest podcast Butch was brought up (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0O1jPqDWms) in regard to him failing some of of his polygraph tests, however the NH attorney general had no real comment on it. Again, I don't think he's involved but it certainly raises the question that maybe he's withholding something.

I don't know what to think anymore. But it's been 12 years. We haven't found her body in the woods. There hasn't been a credible sighting of her ever. Whatever happened to her after the accident, I believe she's dead and it's a result of the actions of another person.

I don't think there are too many evil bus drivers out there. Hard to believe Butch Atwood would drive kids home safely every day and then abduct Maura.

I believe she disappeared on her own accord.

I don't think there are too many evil bus drivers out there. Hard to believe Butch Atwood would drive kids home safely every day and then abduct Maura.

I believe she disappeared on her own accord.
Yes i think so too, i mean lets look at the facts. He weighed 300 pounds, he lived up the road so he is very local, and like you said he drives kids safety in the school bus. While he might not have been directly involved maybe he saw something because on the podcast apparently his widow told investigators that he was withholding information or that he didnt pass a polygraph or something along those lines.

I think the wife alleged his poor health resulted in issues with the polygraph, but it's extremely doubtful he could have physically been involved with this. But did he see more than he was willing to share with police? It's possible. Could he have been afraid of retaliation? Sure.

Someone picked Maura up. Whether Atwood saw anything, we'll never know now that he's gone.

-November 2003, she was arrested for using a stolen credit card.
-February 4th, 2004 was the date she had a breakdown at her work.
-February 7th, 2004 was the date she crashed her father's car into a guard rail.
-February 9th, 2004 was the date she crashed her car and disappeared.

I find it hard to believe, that if she was still alive, she hasn't done something that would have put her on the radar. She was obviously in a downward spiral in her life around the time she disappeared.

This is a great point I think. I don't think Maura is alive, and part of the reason why is because I don't think (especially in this technology-driven day and age) she has the calmness and follow-through to stay "off the radar" so long

To me that's always spelled out that she was caught up in a series of bad decisions. Perhaps she was depressed at that point in her life but regardless she made several poor choices and ultimately there's a good chance that her reckless behavior led to her being missing for 12 years...and I don't think it's volutary on her part.

I think it's important to realize the passage of time here. Maura would be about 33 if she is alive today. Significantly older and possibly wiser and more mature than the 21 year old college student she was when she disappeared. I would hope that if she were alive today, she would be behaving more like an adult and less like the impulsive, irresponsible young adult she was when she vanished. I can only hope she checked herself into Alcoholics Anonymous and voluntarily retook drivers ed and things of that nature. Maybe she got her life together, or at least enough to stay off the radar.

And I can't stress this enough: Yes, this case is a big deal in the U.S. and lots of people know about it. That's not the case with the rest of the world. People in France or Germany or Russia don't know about this case the way we do and probably wouldn't give Maura a second glance if they passed her on the street. Considering that, plus that lots of people described Maura as quiet, and that her appearance is probably markedly different now, I can easily see her living a quiet life in another country, going unnoticed.

James Renner's book about Maura came out last week. I bought it at Barnes & Noble on Saturday and finished it overnight.

There are no new bombshells released in the book that hasn't already been revealed on his blog the last few years. Every discovery he made, whether through research or personal interviews, is told in chronological order. Interviews and attempted interviews with the majority of ANYBODY who was in Maura's life were made by Renner, even casual acquaintances who rarely crossed paths with her. He left no stone untouched.

There are a few Unsolved Mysteries connections mentioned. For instance, when Renner tried to track down Maura's oldest sister Kathleen, he found out she was living in a trailer on the shore of Lake Champlain and he made mention of the sea monster 'Champ' who is believed to still live in the water. He also mentioned the murder of Molly Bish and the Connecticut River Valley Killer.

Many will remember John Philipin from the UM segment, the criminal psychologist who tried to build a profile on the CRV killer. Renner ended up contacting him to get his thoughts and he was not surprised to learn that Philipin had already been consulted on the Maura Murray investigation. Philipin does not believe the CRV killer has resurfaced. He thinks the key to finding out what happened to Maura is to learn more about her past. But it's really hard to get an understanding of Maura's past when you have to deal with Fred Murray.

His exact quote was.... "The dad has info that he isn't sharing. I never believed Fred. Not one word. There was something wrong about that man. He created so many smoke screens that nobody could get a handle on him. He wanted total control of Maura's life. And there was an unnatural and unusual closeness between father and daughter."

Of all of Maura's siblings, her younger brother Kurt was the only one who didn't shun Renner. He mentioned the happy memories he had with Maura before she left for West Point. He even ended up friending Renner on Facebook.

Fred Jr. threatened to punch Renner in the face but he told him, "You'd probably like that because it would give you a juicy story to add to your blog," so he restrained and slammed the door in Renner's face.

When Renner tracked Julie Murray down, she was with a friend who kept telling her not to say anything. All she said was, "I don't like the things you've written about my father on your blog. He may have been hard on us at times but he's a great father."

The sections about Billy Rausch were very interesting. Other than her family, it seemed most people in Maura's circle hated Billy. When Maura introduced him to her friends on the track team at UMass, all of them hated him instantly and they always tried to think of ways to break them up. Recent information has come to light of Billy assaulting some of his female coworkers in 2011 and him losing his job because of it. Renner contacted some of Billy's high school girlfriends - the same girls Billy tried to call the day after Maura vanished after many, many, MANY failed attempts to reach Kate Markopoulos. Those girlfriends said even back then, Billy could have a violent temper with girls. It would seem that if Billy was a hothead with women before Maura and after Maura, chances are he was like that WITH Maura.

Kate Markopoulos and Sarah Alfieri remain the most suspicious people in this case. Their questionable memories and statements have never made much sense and that was already well known. It was mentioned the day after Maura vanished, Billy's cell phone records show he tried to call Kate around 50-something times but she refused to answer. Finally, he called Sarah. She DID answer, they spoke for about two minutes and after that, Billy never attempted to call Kate or Sarah again. EVER. There's something very fishy about that.

Renner mentioned a possible theory that Maura might have used some type of underground railroad system to successfully run away undetected, after a tandem driver picked her up from the accident scene in Haverville, of course. He mentioned several examples of people who successfully ran away from their lives using different social security numbers. (This is kind of comparable to Kristi and Bobby Baskin earning college degrees and getting jobs with fake names and different social security numbers. It's also been mentioned that the Maples were able to kidnap the children with help of an underground railroad system. You can make up any type of sob story about yourself and these kind of programs help you escape to a new life.) Maura could have done this for any reason, whether it was to escape legal troubles, raise Billy's baby without him (if she was pregnant) or if she just wanted to run away for no other reason.

I know I'm forgetting some stuff but that's all I got off the top of my head right now. It's a good book. I'd recommend it to anyone interested in this case.

Wow, thanks for the info. about the book! I can't wait to read it. I'm just glad there's someone out there who is REALLY digging into this case and isn't afraid to confront all the shady players involved.

My personal "gut instinct" on Fred: he's weird, for sure, but I don't think he killed his daughter or anything like that. I think he knows maybe part of what caused Maura to run away, behave erratically, etc., w/ the culmination of that panicky behavior being (in my opinion) her getting into a stranger's car on the highway after her 2nd accident and things becoming a big question mark from that point forward.

Many will remember John Philipin from the UM segment, the criminal psychologist who tried to build a profile on the CRV killer. Renner ended up contacting him to get his thoughts and he was not surprised to learn that Philipin had already been consulted on the Maura Murray investigation. Philipin does not believe the CRV killer has resurfaced. He thinks the key to finding out what happened to Maura is to learn more about her past. But it's really hard to get an understanding of Maura's past when you have to deal with Fred Murray.

His exact quote was.... "The dad has info that he isn't sharing. I never believed Fred. Not one word. There was something wrong about that man. He created so many smoke screens that nobody could get a handle on him. He wanted total control of Maura's life. And there was an unnatural and unusual closeness between father and daughter."

I may have been too quick to dismiss the possibility of a physical relationship between Fred and Maura (which I find rather disturbing). In any event, I'm baffled Fred has as many supporters as he does. Some people believe his act, but I always saw straight through it.

The sections about Billy Rausch were very interesting. Other than her family, it seemed most people in Maura's circle hated Billy. When Maura introduced him to her friends on the track team at UMass, all of them hated him instantly and they always tried to think of ways to break them up. Recent information has come to light of Billy assaulting some of his female coworkers in 2011 and him losing his job because of it. Renner contacted some of Billy's high school girlfriends - the same girls Billy tried to call the day after Maura vanished after many, many, MANY failed attempts to reach Kate Markopoulos. Those girlfriends said even back then, Billy could have a violent temper with girls. It would seem that if Billy was a hothead with women before Maura and after Maura, chances are he was like that WITH Maura.

I believe this was supposed to be the bombshell as it was the hidden epilogue in the book (this part wasn't available online) and it certainly surprised me. According to recent blog posts, Bill Rausch shoved a female coworker down the stairs and possibly tried to rape her afterwards. Another female coworker stated she believe he was responsible for the removal of her ultrasound pictures from the office. There were at least 2 other female coworkers who had issues with him. It definitely seems he has a problem with women. It seems like he's a "big deal" these days, being interviewed on CNN and CNBC and such. He's the political director of Iraq and Afghanistan veterans, and I find it disturbing this troubled young man holds such an important position. I don't think this news was intended to reveal what happened to Maura, but rather to explain (in part, at least) why she left.

Renner mentioned a possible theory that Maura might have used some type of underground railroad system to successfully run away undetected, after a tandem driver picked her up from the accident scene in Haverville, of course. He mentioned several examples of people who successfully ran away from their lives using different social security numbers. (This is kind of comparable to Kristi and Bobby Baskin earning college degrees and getting jobs with fake names and different social security numbers. It's also been mentioned that the Maples were able to kidnap the children with help of an underground railroad system. You can make up any type of sob story about yourself and these kind of programs help you escape to a new life.) Maura could have done this for any reason, whether it was to escape legal troubles, raise Billy's baby without him (if she was pregnant) or if she just wanted to run away for no other reason.

Exactly. The most recent blog posts are talking about an area right next to the White Mountains where UMass students could rent cabins. This place is known as a hangout for youths to get drunk and Maura disappeared right near there (taking the right exit one would need to take to get there.) Her track coach (one of the people she was having an affair with) was also known to have frequented the cabins.

I know I'm forgetting some stuff but that's all I got off the top of my head right now. It's a good book. I'd recommend it to anyone interested in this case.

thanks for all that info. I was leaning toward not getting the book, but now I think I will pick up a copy. The only problem now is finding time to read it.

I think with the book, the bulk of it has already been discussed so I doubt I'll read it. There just isn't anything new or exciting. Sure, Bill Rausch has been outed as allegedly having issues with women but thats just another thing that indirectly relates to Maura. We have him described as "controlling" with Maura, but really nothing more than that. If Renner managed to dig up some really damning stuff during their time as a couple, I'd be interested.

Honestly, if he wants to sell some books go find her. Heck, I'd buy a hardcover if she was found. That would make an amazing story.

But as is, the basis of Maura running away remains flimsy in my mind. Maybe she was unhappy with her parents, maybe her boyfriend, maybe herself. But that and her actions prior to her disappearance could as easily point to suicide as it could running away. The more it's justified the more elaborate it all becomes. Like I've said numerous times, I'm not ruling anything out at this point but I just don't see the likelihood.

If all of that sounded weird, it's because it is.

Welp, I guess I'll be bypassing that one in the bookstores.

Here are some things I picked up from the book thus far:

-You can add some expensive jewelry to the list of items that was left behind in the car. 2 pieces.
-Maura's supervisor suggested she get mental help.
-Some things about the author, James Renner. His method of writing is quite funny and can best be described as "hilariously cynic". I don't normally care for excessive swearing, but he makes the best use of it. He did a lot of reporting on the missing Cleveland girls (Amanda Berry, etc) and once traveled to Seattle to have a sit-down with the lead FBI agent investigating the DB Cooper case. He does numerous things that I can't condone, like drinking and driving and visiting nudie bars while married, among other things.

One thing that's really weird: There's this whole section where he talks about his notion that life is some big "video game" and when he learns that a runner in Ohio once used a different route one day and came across a strange acting boy who was dressed like a 1920's newsie and disappeared into thin air, it gave him the inspiration to try and do the same to learn what happened to Maura. So he drives from Ohio to New Hampshire (much to the annoyance of his wife), creeps around campus, then tries to recreate Maura's journey in as precise detail as possible, including...you guessed it...getting tipsy and getting behind the wheel of his car so that he can discover what "glitch" in the computer game caused Maura to vanish.

If all of that sounded weird, it's because it is.

It did.

Just curious, did he also drink White Russians, boxed wine and rum & coke? :lol:

something called Jameson mixed with Coke.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

something called Jameson mixed with Coke.

It's whiskey, dude. :)

Healy's comment, I presume, is two fold. He states few cars pass by that area, but the ones that did are local. So even if it was just "a few", cars still passed by and were likely by those familiar with the area.

Maura's car facing the wrong way on the side of the road, it surely got Butch Atwood's attention and I wouldn't be surprised if it drew the attention of the next car that passed by. It's a small window, yes, but it's still a chance nonetheless. If Atwood was the first vehicle that passed her, who's so the say the the second or third wouldn't have made contact? If I was in that situation, I would have likely stopped too.

Healy also went on to state that he thinks Maura went to the wrong house or got into the wrong car.

However from what I understand NH State PD as well as Healy himself were fixated on Rick Forcier, and never really explored anything else. Part of me thinks there's no solving this unless they move on, as I don't think he's involved.

Caffeine, I noticed you post in the Steven Koecher thread on Websleuths. Did you know there's a recent thread on him in the "All Other Cases" forum here? Did you become familiar with these cases from the Disappeared show.

Some families will go to crazy lengths to hide a relative's dirty laundry, especially if it uncovers their own ongoing problems, so the public evasiveness isn't that unusual. I do think it's odd that after 12 years, they've never attempted to declare her legally deceased.

some more interesting things from the book:

Another quote from John Healy: "Fred's a volatile man. I remember he was at the Wells River Motel one day and I came into the room to speak to another investigator. I tried to talk to Fred, but he acted like I wasn't even there." Healy also stated that because he was so close to the case, he knew when Fred lied to the press. Fred became hostile towards the police mere days into the search.

Maura was busted for stealing makeup from the commissary at Fort Knox, which of course, is the most secure military facility in the United States.

It's confirmed that Maura was bulimic.

The book gives you a feel for the whole Murray family. On the whole, they are not nice people. In addition, they are heavily evasive. Family spokeswoman Helena Dwyer-Murray is quoted as saying to a friend of Maura's: "Don't say these negative things. Watch what you tell people."

I've lost track of how many people that knew Maura (friends and family) openly stated that they believed she ran away to start a new life, but the count is quite high.

Yesterday I was reading your posts with the book exerpts and I wanted to comment on her family, but felt bad about doing so. To be honest, I always got the impression that Maura and her family are weirdos. I also think she is not alive, only because I don't think she was smart enough to fake her own death and start a new life elsewhere.

I do think it's odd that after 12 years, they've never attempted to declare her legally deceased.

Good point. Two years ago, Fred told a reporter that he believes she's dead. The video of it is on the forbidden site that marked the ten year anniversary of her disappearance.

Maura was busted for stealing makeup from the commissary at Fort Knox, which of course, is the most secure military facility in the United States.

I have no way to prove this but I always got the sense that she never wanted to go to West Point in the first place. I suspect she was pressured and pressured by Fred to go there. And she knew asking to transfer somewhere else would never fly with Fred so this was her way of getting out of there.

James Renner, though, seems to think this was a much deeper problem. He said stealing $5.00 worth of lipstick from the most secure military facility in the country was an obvious cry for help. And it doesn't sound like this issue was ever properly addressed by her family. (Though we can never know for sure since the family refuses to talk.)

Caffeine, I noticed you post in the Steven Koecher thread on Websleuths. Did you know there's a recent thread on him in the "All Other Cases" forum here? Did you become familiar with these cases from the Disappeared show.

I'll have to check that out!

Admittedly, I've picked up on several cases from Disappeared and keep tabs on them. However Maura Murray, Brianna Maitland and Molly Bish were all local cases with tons of exposure, so I knew of them before the ID episodes. Maura's obviously the most perplexing so I think that's the allure.

Steven Koecher, though...that's another baffling one. It's always interesting to hear of cases that involve males. Totally different perspective and much less common. The fact that he just randomly went on a road trip and ended up in an unfamiliar housing development, parked his car, and walked by a camera never to be seen again. Puzzling.

It was her mother who made that crack about throwing up all that food later on, in front of the entire family. Some families have wicked senses of humor. But I can't think of any excuse to joke about something like that.

It was also mentioned that there were a few years where Maura's family never even bothered to throw her a birthday party. Her childhood friend Liz Drewniak (interviewed in the Disappeared episode) was born 5 days after Maura and the Drewniak family would throw the girls a combination party just so Maura could have some type of celebration for her birthday.

The more I find out about the Murray family, the more I don't like.

A few more interesting things from the book:

-In the search for Maura, a skeleton was found in the mountains, however it turned out to be a guy who went missing 20 years earlier.

-There were reports that Maura's alcoholism was so bad that she was spotted passed out drunk in the hallways at West Point.

Wow, that makes me feel a great amount of sympathy toward Maura. She was obviously a very sick young lady. But also, probably extremely gifted, and a proud patriot. It is no small feat to get accepted into WP.

I do agree though that her family did not address problems Maura had properly. The book stated that a relative of Maura's said this at the Thanksgiving dinner table in regards to Maura's bulimia: "Maura, why are you eating so much when you're just going to throw it all up later?"

Who could blame her for running away, if that's what she ultimately did? I think the word that should be used to describe her family is toxic.

more things from the book:

Renner has a conversation with Maura's Aunt Janis, who was Maura's mother's sister. Janis describes Fred as a "very odd duck" and said he pursed Laurie (Maura's mother) when he was in college and she was 15.

Janis also says Fred really reamed Maura over the accident that did significant damage to his car. This tells us that Fred was lying in the Disappeared episode when he said he didn't think it was that big of deal because that was 'the only time Maura disappointed him." or something to that effect, which he said in a calm demeanor.

A neighbor of the Murray's used to hire Maura's sister Kathleen as a babysitter, until she made a call on a phone sex line in their house (while she was supposed to be watching the children). They stopped using her services after that.

Maura was recommend to West Point by Senator Ted Kennedy.

Interesting. I wonder how Maura's grades were in HS and/or if the Murray's are politically connected. The latter would be interesting to find out - isn't Fred a blue collar technician of some sort? Does he have ties to a union? Ted Kennedy is about as solid of a recommendation as you can get!

So the only time Maura disappointed Fred was when she had a car wreck? How about getting arrested for using a stolen credit card? :confused:

You know, when I watched the Disappeared segment I had an unsettling feeling about Fred. Even though he was portrayed as this loving dad intent on finding his beloved missing daughter, something about him seemed off kilter. He just struck me as insincere. Then as I started reading more about the case, it became obvious that Fred, Maura and more than a few members of the Murray family are just plain weirdos. :confused:

To me Fred has always come off as your typical old time New Englander. Blunt, not always considerate and a bit of an enigma in terms of what they're thinking/feeling.

I can see how this is an off putting cultural difference to some, but honestly many people who have lived there all their lives are a bit salty and reserved. I don't necessarily think it's an indication of anything really. She may have been unhappy with her family, but at times so are many people.

Interesting. I wonder how Maura's grades were in HS and/or if the Murray's are politically connected. The latter would be interesting to find out - isn't Fred a blue collar technician of some sort? Does he have ties to a union? Ted Kennedy is about as solid of a recommendation as you can get!

According to James Renner's book, she was third in her graduating high school class. Her friend Liz Drewniak, who was part of her clique of friends, was the Valedictorian.

http://i922.photobucket.com/albums/ad64/andy80_bucket/Maura_zpsrdelodnl.jpg

It was stated a recommendation from a higher-up government official was required to get into West Point. I've heard on more than one occasion that Fred is conservative, so I doubt he had any connection to the Kennedys other than that.

Very true. A recommendtion is required by a high level politician from your state, most commonly a Senator. I guess Maura kept her nose clean in H.S., did well academically and was active in sports and civic duties. That would make her a good candidate for a recommendation. And her sister was also at WP?



Fred was obviously lying there. Her getting kicked out West Point no doubt disappointed him too. I've heard it was his personal bragging right that he had two daughters in West Point, so Maura's shenanigans no doubt would have been a huge blow to his ego.

Agreed. Makes sense.

one of Maura's friends stated that when Kate returned (after her own disappearance), she never mentioned Maura again. That seems odd. If Kate didn't know what happened to Maura, you'd think she'd be talking about her.

The same friend stated the winter before Maura disappeared, her demeanor changed. She was told Maura was sick or injured (read: pregnant?)

They need to make a Lifetime movie about this case. :crazy:

this is perhaps the most interesting thing yet:

One of the items found in Maura's car was a Citizens Bank ink pen. Renner says he heard from a woman who was an employee of said bank, which has various branches throughout several states in the Northeast. The woman says that during lulls, she would do searches of missing people in the computer, just to see what would come up. One day she searched for Maura Murray. An account under that name popped up as belonging to someone in New Hampshire, with the birthdate being 5/4/82 (Maura's birthdate). The employee said she could tell it was an active account because it was attached to a car loan (they no longer do car loans, but did back then), and that somebody had made a payment on it within the last few months. This was in late 2006 or early 2007, 2-3 years after Maura's disappearance.

Maura's alive. I'd bet money on it.

:eek:

Renner's blog is effectively kaput. You can still access it, but he's disabled comments and no longer actively posting on it. He's come to the conclusion Maura was pregnant and voluntarily disappeared.

He's also apparently moved on to other interests, such as a baffling case that would be perfect for Unsolved Mysteries: Byron Preiss, a young publisher, who in 1982, hid a dozen keys around the U.S. and Canada. To date, a mere 2 have been found.

Renner's blog is effectively kaput. You can still access it, but he's disabled comments and no longer actively posting on it. He's come to the conclusion Maura was pregnant and voluntarily disappeared.

He's also apparently moved on to other interests, such as a baffling case that would be perfect for Unsolved Mysteries: Byron Preiss, a young publisher, who in 1982, hid a dozen keys around the U.S. and Canada. To date, a mere 2 have been found.

Or Maura herself contacted him and asked him to stop. He's said repeatedly he would quit if she did exactly that.

Or Maura herself contacted him and asked him to stop. He's said repeatedly he would quit if she did exactly that.

That's an interesting point, and one I hadn't thought of. (Please excuse my sentence ending with a preposition, which I wouldn't mention except that Robert Stack himself was very insistent about it in Beavis and Butthead Do America).

It may be about money also. Considering the blog was most likely a publicity vehicle for his book, which came out not too long ago, and considering he has probably already cashed in on the profits from it, he doesn't see a monetary purpose at keeping it alive.

A lot of things in life boil down to money when you think about it. I've even heard it's the reason the imdb boards (home of that other Unsolved Mysteries forum) are getting shut down. Then again, it could be all of the vicious comments on the different boards there. The Full House and Karate Kid III ones are some of the most messed up things I've ever seen in my life.

A lot of things in life boil down to money when you think about it. I've even heard it's the reason the imdb boards (home of that other Unsolved Mysteries forum) are getting shut down. Then again, it could be all of the vicious comments on the different boards there. The Full House and Karate Kid III ones are some of the most messed up things I've ever seen in my life.

I found out recently that IMDB Pro is a tool used by the industry (probably used as a resume or general research tool) and can help determine who gets hired for what. Based on the content of much of the boards, I'm not surprised at all that they want to cut them loose... it's similar to how a lot of news outlets don't even have comments enabled on their pieces anymore, they let all that garbage shift over to the social media sites.

I highly doubt Renner would not release any bombshells if he came across something, yes the blog is done for now but if anything major happened in the next year he will likely post about it.

I think realistically he has run of leads and came to a dead end. I respect his time with this case but he's probably on the same page as police, PIs etc - they simply don't know what happened.

Today marks the anniversary of her dissapearence as well. I think if any progress can be made here, a new set of eyes really needs to look at this. Starting from square one.

It may be about money also. Considering the blog was most likely a publicity vehicle for his book, which came out not too long ago, and considering he has probably already cashed in on the profits from it, he doesn't see a monetary purpose at keeping it alive.

A lot of things in life boil down to money when you think about it. I've even heard it's the reason the imdb boards (home of that other Unsolved Mysteries forum) are getting shut down. Then again, it could be all of the vicious comments on the different boards there. The Full House and Karate Kid III ones are some of the most messed up things I've ever seen in my life.
Weren't you on the Full House board on this site ranting about how you hated Baby Michelle?

Weren't you on the Full House board on this site ranting about how you hated Baby Michelle?

Yep, I sure was. She sucks. Do a search on the internet and you can find a whole ton of people who hated that spoiled brat. The list of reasons to dislike her is a mile long.

Though I'm really not sure what you're getting at.

Yep, I sure was. She sucks. Do a search on the internet and you can find a whole ton of people who hated that spoiled brat. The list of reasons to dislike her is a mile long.

Though I'm really not sure what you're getting at.

Obviously they think it's important to clarify that you're that guy for no reason at all. :lol: