This was a 'Lost Episode'. The scene has Ralph, Norton and Alice in the Kramden apartment talking around the table. Ralph goes into the bedroom for something, Alice and Ed keep talking then realize Ralph should of been back by now and Alice goes into the bedroom to get Ralph. She doesn't come back either. Norton is sitting there alone looks into the bedroom a few times wondering what's going on. Then he gets up walks over to the icebox and takes out an orange, brings it back to the table and starts to peel it. Audience started to laugh watching Ed peel an orange. This wasn't part of the script.
I do not recall any other part of the episode since the missed cue was so memorable.
This missed cue was also mentioned in the book 'The Honeymooners Companion' with no episode title.
Does any one recall or heard about this scene ? If so, name of the episode ?
I did see this episode on Showtime in 1985.

Are you sure you saw that exact scene on Showtime? I know the Lost Episodes very well, and I don't remember seeing that. I've gone through many shows looking for that scene and the scene where Carney had to come in through the window, but haven't found them. The Lost Episodes box set that came out in October contains all the sketches that aired on Showtime and much more. If you picked that up, hopefully you'll eventually come across the episode that you THINK that scene occurred in. Remember, just because Carney had an orange in his hand doesn't mean it's the scene mentioned in that book.

Thanks for your reply. If I didn't see that scene on Showtime I can't recall where I did see it. You say that you know the 'Lost Episodes' and don't remember seeing that scene. Did you see the 'Lost Episodes' on Showtime ? Or are you refering the ones that came out on VHS and DVD at the time ? Not all Showtime episodes were on VHS.
I did purchase the complete 'Lost Episodes' and did not find the episode I am mentioning. That is why I am asking if any one knows about it. It could be possible that the scene with the orange was deleted from an episode for time. Maybe MPI is holding out for a later release.
The scene with Norton holding an orange is what the book is mentioning as I am also as per my above message. It's not what I THINK, it's what I know.

Thanks for your reply. If I didn't see that scene on Showtime I can't recall where I did see it. You say that you know the 'Lost Episodes' and don't remember seeing that scene. Did you see the 'Lost Episodes' on Showtime ? Or are you refering the ones that came out on VHS and DVD at the time ? Not all Showtime episodes were on VHS.
I didn't see the Lost Episodes during the original Showtime run, but I know that they aired 70 sketches starting in 1985, all of which were eventually released on VHS.

I did purchase the complete 'Lost Episodes' and did not find the episode I am mentioning. That is why I am asking if any one knows about it. It could be possible that the scene with the orange was deleted from an episode for time. Maybe MPI is holding out for a later release.
The set was advertised as "the most complete collection possible," so I seriously doubt that they would knowingly hold a single scene back for a future release. Based on what I know, if the scene mentioned in the book can't be found in the set, then it hasn't been found yet, and if the scene you remember seeing isn't in the set, then it wasn't from one of the Lost Episodes.

The scene with Norton holding an orange is what the book is mentioning as I am also as per my above message. It's not what I THINK, it's what I know.
Can you describe exactly what you remember seeing, without any of the information you got from the book? Did you actually see Gleason and Audrey Meadows go into the bedroom one by one, followed by Carney going to the ice box and peeling an orange, or do you just remember Carney taking something out of the ice box and peeling it? If the scene you remember seeing was shown on TV at some point in the 80s, then it shouldn't be hard to find.

If is not a Lost Episode then there are not many choices it could be. Definately not a Claasic 39. It is a Lost Episode.
What I explained about the episode is all I can remember seeing. I am researching for any info I can find.

BillMac -

I do remember reading about this, but never remember seeing it.
I have watched & taken very detailed notes on all 107 episodes on the new disc set for a "notes" section that I will be updating on the Honeymooners TV.com page & there are no edits that this would seem to come from.

Bill S.

I rewatched the 50th Anniv celebration from Larry King & Mike Douglas was talking about 1 of his favorite moments when Norton couldn't go thru the door & had to go thru a window.

Do you remember that?

Puzzling!!

Only a few know about this scene. If they hadn't read read it then they must of saw it ??? No one has yet mentioned a title for this episode. That would be something to go on.
In the Honeymooners Companion book, Kenneth Whelan[associate producer] and Eddie Brinkman[stage manager] are describing the missed cue of Ralph leaving and not coming back right away and Ed peeling the orange.

I have heard about Ed coming thru the window and also other people mentioning this scene. I can't recall if I ever saw it. Do you know anything about the episode ? An episode title ?

Mike Douglas's comment about his favorite episode being the one in which Carney came in through the window has bugged me for years. He even went as far as to say, "I'm glad they didn't change that," which makes it seem like it's a well-known episode. My guess is he saw an episode where Carney was out on the fire escape and assumed that was the episode everyone was talking about. It's too bad Mr. Douglas is no longer around to clarify his comments.

I, like Chris, have watched every episode closely, looking for both the orange scene and the window scene, but I don't remember seeing either of them. There are a couple shows I'm going to watch over just to be sure, but I'm pretty sure both episodes are still missing. The window incident must have occurred during one of the five missing Audrey Meadows sketches because she mentioned it in her autobiography, but I don't remember if Audrey is mentioned in the orange story, which leaves open the possibility that it might have happened during the Pert Kelton years. All stories seem to have been told by people that were on set while the show was going on live, so it doesn't necessarily mean the episodes in question were ever rebroadcast.

I went back and checked the Dumont shows, the 2 American Scene shows, Women's Lib, the 4 ABC 70's specials & every special that had Gleason / Honeymooners footage & neither of these appear. I've watched the Color shows recently & don't remember them there.

Wonder if the both these instances could have been in other Gleason sketches other than Honeymooners?

Mike Douglas's reply would have several options on how he saw that episode. 1. When it was on tv in the 1950's. 2. Re broadcast on Showtime or TV Land ?? 3. In a remake episode, as per his comment- "I'm glad they didn't change anything".
Is it possible that the two scenes were shown on a 'Honeymooners' Anniversary special ?

The orange peeling scene is Audrey Meadows. The people that mention it has Audrey in it and what I seen was Audrey.

If Ralph, Alice and Ed are in the scenes what could they of called it other than the Honeymooners.

The Christmas Party episode that had Frankie Avalon in it was shown on Showtime but was not on VHS. Is this correct or did I miss that tape ?

I just went back and read the missed cue story in the book, and it did occur during a Honeymooners sketch with Audrey Meadows. In the story, Kenneth Whelan says, "that's the only cue I remember Gleason missing during the two years I worked on the show." That narrows it down to the first two seasons of The Jackie Gleason Show. Since I'm 99% sure that scene cannot be found on the box set, and there's only three known sketches missing from that time period, I think it's safe to say that it occurred during one of those. I believe the window incident occurred during one of those three as well.

Being that those three sketches are still considered lost, I find it strange that Mike Douglas claimed to have seen the window incident and BillMac here believes he's seen the orange incident. I've written Mike Douglas's claim off as a case of mistaken identity, as there were several episodes where Carney could be seen out on the fire escape, but I'd really like to find the scene BillMac is referring to. There are a number of sketches that were rebroadcast in some way, shape or form, but not officially released until this year, so I guess it's possible that footage from a supposedly still lost sketch could have made it's way into some kind of Gleason or Honeymooners special over the years. Showtime aired a series of 26 half-hour episodes in the 80s called "Gleason: He's the Greatest." I haven't seen every episode, but is it possible that you may have seen this footage in one of those episodes, BillMac?

Can't say for sure on what show I saw the orange peeling. Just a sketch or an episode. If Showtime showed just the sketch then the episode is there and not really lost. If the sketch was the only part of the film that was salvageable then it would have been stated through the years that the film was no good and lost forever and this sketch is all that remains.

Thinking about Mike Douglas's comment about Norton couldn't go through the door but had to go through the window.
I recall seeing something that might be what Mike Douglas is referring to.
I am not saying this was a Lost Episode, or even a Miami Honeymooners or a Gleason & Carney skit. Might of been a different comedy team.
Here is the scenario. Will use the Honeymooners as the example.
Ralph and Alice had a fight and Ralph states that Alice will have her half of the apartment and Ralph will have his half. The next scene has these white lines painted all over the apartment one side is Alice's and the other side is Ralph's. Ralph's side has the window. This would explain why as Mike Douglas said Norton couldn't use the door and had to go through the window to visit Ralph.
What episodes do you know of that had Norton on the fire escape ? That was funny.

This was a 'Lost Episode'. The scene has Ralph, Norton and Alice in the Kramden apartment talking around the table. Ralph goes into the bedroom for something, Alice and Ed keep talking then realize Ralph should of been back by now and Alice goes into the bedroom to get Ralph. She doesn't come back either. Norton is sitting there alone looks into the bedroom a few times wondering what's going on. Then he gets up walks over to the icebox and takes out an orange, brings it back to the table and starts to peel it. Audience started to laugh watching Ed peel an orange. This wasn't part of the script.
I do not recall any other part of the episode since the missed cue was so memorable.
This missed cue was also mentioned in the book 'The Honeymooners Companion' with no episode title.
Does any one recall or heard about this scene ? If so, name of the episode ?
I did see this episode on Showtime in 1985.


I remember seeing the scene you're talking about sometime in the late 80s and if I recall correctly it was part of a Honeymooners special that showed video clips that dealt with each characters personality and how their comedic uniqueness added to the show.

Regarding the "Orange Peeling" scene... Yes, one would think that this scene would appear on a special in a batch with other goofs.

I have spent quite a few hours over the past week looking through everything I own & I found no orange peeling or of Norton going through a window. Here is what I went through....

The Honeymooners Reunion: 5/13/85
Honeymooners Anniviversary Celebration: 10/18/85
Season's Greeting From The Honeymooners: 11/30/85
The Great Gleason: 10/21/87
The Best of Gleason: 6/8/88
The Best of Gleason 2: 7/31/88
The Great One: 9/10/88
Gleason: He's The Greatest: 11/30/88
The Best of Gleason 3: 2/28/89 -
The Honeymooners Anniversary Special: 11/12/90
The Really Lost Debut Episodes/Christmas (Disney): 10/30/93 & 12/12/93
Jackie Gleason's Cavalcade of Characters: 3/30/94
My Man Norton: DVD special: 12/15/94
TV Land - Inside Honeymooners: 3/15/00
50th Anniversary (CBS): 5/6/02
A & E TVography: Jackie Gleason: 7/22/02
Jackie Gleason: Genius At Work: 3/1/06

A couple of things I do not have that others may want to go through...
The "Honeybloopers" 11/29/89 VHS or
believe it or not what about The Honeymooners VCR Game?
Could it possibly be on there?
Anyone have either of these?

Now, some interesting things I did find while going through everything...

1) On the "A & E TVography: Jackie Gleason" 7/22/02...
35 seconds of "Alice And Ralph Get Dressed For A Date Last Night" the 11/30/51 "Gleason Cavalcade" sketch airs on this special.
Funny... on the new DVD Honeymooners set featurette they state that this sketch was recently found in the gleason archives. This is obviously false!

And...

2) On "The Great One": 9/10/88 hosted by John Candy @ 8:17 (for 15 secs) after the Nixon & Jackie Golf clip there is a scene from the 50's JGS w/ George Petrie as a doctor giving Gleason a shot (Gleason acts like Ralph). But I have no clue what this is from - and another mystery...

Anyone?

A couple of things I do not have that others may want to go through...The "Honeybloopers" 11/29/89 VHS or believe it or not what about The Honeymooners VCR Game? Could it possibly be on there? Anyone have either of these?
I have both, but don't remember that scene. I'll try and scan through them within the next couple days, I just have to find the VCR game.

1) On the "A & E TVography: Jackie Gleason" 7/22/02...35 seconds of "Alice And Ralph Get Dressed For A Date Last Night" the 11/30/51 "Gleason Cavalcade" sketch airs on this special. Funny... on the new DVD Honeymooners set featurette they state that this sketch was recently found in the gleason archives. This is obviously false!
Are you sure it's the Cavalcade and not the Ed Sullivan version? Obviously it wasn't just discovered recently if a clip was shown during that special, but the people at MPI or UCLA probably didn't come across it until recently. It's interesting that there would be only one Cavalcade sketch in Gleason's archive.

2) On "The Great One": 9/10/88 hosted by John Candy @ 8:17 (for 15 secs) after the Nixon & Jackie Golf clip there is a scene from the 50's JGS w/ George Petrie as a doctor giving Gleason a shot (Gleason acts like Ralph). But I have no clue what this is from - and another mystery...
I will take a look at this and let you know.

One more thing regarding the orange scene...when this subject came up some years back, a poster mentioned that in a clip from "The Wit & Wisdom of Ed Norton," Carney appeared to be taking an orange out of the ice box. I don't have that special, so I'm unable to confirm this.

Maybe I saw the orange peeling skit on that Honeymooners Special. I thought I saw the episode. Maybe I didn't, can't say for sure. It doesn't make sense that there are bit sketches from several shows that are not shown or claimed to be lost. The full episodes should be ok as all the lost episodes were in Gleason's climate controlled vault.
Some one has them and are waiting for another anniversary theme release.
Probably will be added to the complete Lost Episodes. This way if you want the new release episodes you will have to buy the whole set over again. Just a money making scheme that business's do to keep you buying.

The Great One- Do you recall anything about the scene you saw ? How big was Gleason ? Did you recall seeing if Norton went through the window ?

Bill S - the scene is the Cavalcade "Get Dressed" sketch, not the Ed Sullivan version. This particular footage also has the same exact distorted lines & slight missing frames. It's the same exact footage. The A & E special was 2002.

I can't imagine that if the Gleason Estate had this footage & the UCLA group didn't have it, wouldn't they have asked for it for this set?

Regarding "The Great One": "Gleason gets a shot". Petrie has only swabbed the area & Gleason does his "Pain Schtick". This is the first clip in a series of 6 Ralph Kramden scream rants. II have watched it 5 times & can't place the footage.

I have made 2 quicktime movies of these clips if you are interested in seeing. Email me christophermrose@mac.com

BTW: I don not have the The Wit & Wisdom of Ed Norton either, so I cannot confirm.

I don't think that clip shown in "The Great One" is from a Honeymooners sketch. Gleason's hair was slicked back, which would have been unusual for Ralph Kramden. Also, that scenario doesn't match up with any known episodes, lost or found. I checked the "Honeybloopers" tape as well, and there's no orange scene. If anyone can check out "The Wit & Wisdom of Ed Norton" for us, that would be great. You can find it used on Amazon for under $6. Still looking for the VCR game...

The Honeymooners VCR game can be found on EBAY and Amazon brand new or used. Some are reasonable prices.

After scanning 50 pages of threads on this forum I noticed a few times the orange peeling scene was mentioned. It was discussed like now but no conclusive answer.
Was there any contact to Joyce Randolh as she might be able to recall the orange scene. Also the Kramden's apartment painted white lines Alice's and Ralph's half of the apartment. Most likely she wouldn't remeber what the actual episodes were about but possibly those two scenes as they stood out.
Does any one know of any producers, directors, writers or actors that worked on the show in the 1950's that are still alive. If so they could shed some light on the subject.
I also saw an old write up about TV Land announcing of The Honeymooners Lost Episodes being shown. They did mention about live television and miscues with the orange peeling by Art Carney. It wasn't mentioned that TV Land was going to show it. One has to wonder why the orange peeling scene was even mentioned. Unless it was just for explaining why live television went with what ever happened-- happened.

Maybe I saw the orange peeling skit on that Honeymooners Special. I thought I saw the episode. Maybe I didn't, can't say for sure. It doesn't make sense that there are bit sketches from several shows that are not shown or claimed to be lost. The full episodes should be ok as all the lost episodes were in Gleason's climate controlled vault.
Some one has them and are waiting for another anniversary theme release.
Probably will be added to the complete Lost Episodes. This way if you want the new release episodes you will have to buy the whole set over again. Just a money making scheme that business's do to keep you buying.

The Great One- Do you recall anything about the scene you saw ? How big was Gleason ? Did you recall seeing if Norton went through the window ?

I remember Ed Norton sitting at the table and waiting for Ralph and Alice to come back and then getting up and going to the icebox and taking an orange. He walked back to the table and sat down and started peeling the orange. The host of the special mentioned how that part was never in the script and that Art Carney saved the scene with his comedic timing. What I saw was definitely a clip from an episode with commentary from the host and not the entire episode. Also, I recall another clip of Alice taking what was suppose to be a frozen steak but it really was a prop made from wood that she took and hit the edge of the table with. It broke if half and it was clear to the audience that it was not a frozen steak. The host mentioned this as being a blooper.

The Honeymooners VCR game can be found on EBAY and Amazon brand new or used. Some are reasonable prices.
I have it, I just don't know where it is. As soon as I dig it up, I'll take a look at the tape.

Was there any contact to Joyce Randolh as she might be able to recall the orange scene. Also the Kramden's apartment painted white lines Alice's and Ralph's half of the apartment. Most likely she wouldn't remeber what the actual episodes were about but possibly those two scenes as they stood out.
The episode you described about the apartment being divided in half with white lines sounds like an I Love Lucy episode. I don't recall that ever being done on The Honeymooners. There were episodes where Norton moved in with Ralph and Alice moved in with Trixie, or Trixie would come down after a fight with Norton, but never one where they divided the apartment like that.

I remember Ed Norton sitting at the table and waiting for Ralph and Alice to come back and then getting up and going to the icebox and taking an orange. He walked back to the table and sat down and started peeling the orange. The host of the special mentioned how that part was never in the script and that Art Carney saved the scene with his comedic timing. What I saw was definitely a clip from an episode with commentary from the host and not the entire episode. Also, I recall another clip of Alice taking what was suppose to be a frozen steak but it really was a prop made from wood that she took and hit the edge of the table with. It broke if half and it was clear to the audience that it was not a frozen steak. The host mentioned this as being a blooper.
Very interesting. I have to find this special. The clip you mentioned about the frozen steak is from "The New Bowling Ball," which was Audrey's first sketch. The "Bowling" sketch appeared several times in TV specials over the past 20 years or so before being officially released for the first time in October. "Six Months to Live" and "Sprained Thumb" did as well, so that definitely makes it seem possible that the sketch with the orange scene might be in the same boat. Any additional information that you could provide to help us find this special would be very much appreciated.

Thanks to the Great One for elaborating on the orange peeling scene.
I now remember this, but cannot recall where.

Found this on another site...

[A great Carney moment was during an episode of The Honeymooners.

Jackie Gleason had made his exit and went loking for a kleenex to wipe the sweat off his brow, Jackie took longer than expected and Auudrey Meadows was forced to leave the stage and go find him. This was all taking place during the show airing live.

Carney on stage by himself decided to raid the Kramdens fridge, and with luck found an orange which he took to the kitchen table and spent the next 2 minutes peeling until Gleason and Meadows returned.

Gleason after seeing the tape remarked it was the funniest moment he'd ever seen and only Art could make peeling an orange a riot]

Thoughts...
It does sound like people remember this being part of a segment of blooper clips. Because how the great one described the scene & what I found on another site, it sounds like would be a narrated special, possibly "The Wit & Wisdom of Ed Norton"?

Bill, I checked the 3 "Best of Gleason" specials twice. "The New Bowling Ball", "Six Months to Live" and "Sprained Thumb" were on those specials.

Just throwing out ideas...

I do not have "The Wit & Wisdom of Ed Norton" DVD, which has the bonus "The Very Best of the Honeymooners". Could it be on there?

If not from either of these, what about from Gleason's 1985 New York "21" Club Press Release footage?

For example, here's the 1985 local NYC story from CBS news...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76d3BXWDiMo

NOTE: Bill is right, the splitting the room bit is from "Men Are Messy" from I Love Lucy.

I will continue to think & search...

What is amazing is that the orange peeling scene on a special of the Honeymooners is that the host doesn't inform the viewers of what episode it was from. They have the scene but not the episode. It doesn't add up. Why aren't they showing the episode after all these years.

As far as the lines painted in the apartment I didn't see this on I Love Lucy. I am not a fan of theirs. Maybe Abbott & Costello on their half hour show with Sidney Fields.

Bill, I checked the 3 "Best of Gleason" specials twice. "The New Bowling Ball", "Six Months to Live" and "Sprained Thumb" were on those specials.
Clips from those three sketches also appeared in specials like "The Great One" and the 50th Anniversary special with Kevin James.

I do not have "The Wit & Wisdom of Ed Norton" which is the bonus on "The Very Best of the Honeymooners" DVD. It could be on there? If not from either of these, what about from Gleason's 1985 New York "21" Club Press Release footage?
Several years ago, somebody mentioned that Carney could be seen taking what appeared to be an orange out of the ice box in a clip shown in "The Wit & Wisdom of Ed Norton." The only other detail they mentioned was that he was wearing a coat in the scene. I remember a scene from one of the Lost Episodes where Norton takes an apple out of the ice box before Alice (from the bedroom) offers him one. I have a feeling that might be the footage in question. BillMac and The Great One recall seeing the orange footage in the 80s, and I think "The Wit & Wisdom of Ed Norton" was done later on, though it is worth taking a look at, just in case.

If it was shown in the 80s and it was on Showtime, as BillMac remembers, then it could very well have been in an episode of "Gleason: He's the Greatest." I have most, if not all of the episodes, but it would take a while for me to go through every single one. I don't remember seeing many Honeymooners clips in the episodes I've watched, but I can't think of much else from the 80s, except that press release footage, and I wouldn't know where to find that.

I have it, I just don't know where it is. As soon as I dig it up, I'll take a look at the tape.


The episode you described about the apartment being divided in half with white lines sounds like an I Love Lucy episode. I don't recall that ever being done on The Honeymooners. There were episodes where Norton moved in with Ralph and Alice moved in with Trixie, or Trixie would come down after a fight with Norton, but never one where they divided the apartment like that.


Very interesting. I have to find this special. The clip you mentioned about the frozen steak is from "The New Bowling Ball," which was Audrey's first sketch. The "Bowling" sketch appeared several times in TV specials over the past 20 years or so before being officially released for the first time in October. "Six Months to Live" and "Sprained Thumb" did as well, so that definitely makes it seem possible that the sketch with the orange scene might be in the same boat. Any additional information that you could provide to help us find this special would be very much appreciated.

The only other detail I think I remember correctly is that the video quality of the orange peeling clip was equal to that of the Classic 39 episodes. I agree with others that it doesn't make sense that they would only show a portion of a Honeymooners show and not the entire episode unless that clip is the only part that survived.

@BillMac - Regarding the "host doesn't inform the viewers of what episode it was from" - MPI did this on all specials. They never say or note on screen, which the episode clip is from. Making me think this is on the "Wit & Wisdom of Ed Norton". Sounds like a segment they would put on this special (that being the wisdom of Art Carney).

@Bill S. - Yes - he was wearing his coat & I remember him sitting in the chair for what felt like 30+ seconds or so (not sure it was actually 2 minutes).

I went back & double checked the "The Great One", "50th Anniversary Special" & all 26 "Gleason He's The Greatest" - nothing there.

The 26 "Gleason He's The Greatest" shows only have 3 clips that are Honeymooners related - all segments involving Ed Norton Interviews - no actual episode clips.

I also double checked "Jackie Gleason's Cavalcade Of Characters" - Only a couple of Cavalcade bits appear on this.

Regarding "Norton takes an apple out of the ice box" bit - this is a Lost Episode on the new set - I just watched it - but for the life of me - can't remember which show.

@The Great One - I don't remember this being the quality of a classic 39. Perhaps the quality was "good", making me think that it was from 1956-57 season, where the kinescope quality was much better. If this is the case, this would make it from the (still lost) "Six Months to Live" 5/11/1957.

Still searching.....

Was the "Wit & Wisdom of Ed Norton" shown on tv as a special show ? Or was it VHS only? Is the VHS produced by MPI ? Which could be a problem as they don't give you much info and possibly holding back the episode other than the orange peeling scene.

I too remember the quality of the picture of the orange peeling being very good, much better than most Lost Episodes.

I remember that scene with Norton having his coat on walking over to the ice box taking an apple out then closing the door; then he takes out his hankerchief wipes the handle of the ice box off so no will see his finger prints.
This scene is not to be mixed up with the orange scene. The orange scene has Norton sitting down and peeling the orange.

Looking through the Complete Lost Episodes booklet with episode titles and air dates. You will notice that there are some weeks not listed. There are a few listings of almost a whole month before the next episode. Most likely they didn't do a Honeymooners every week. But is it possible that there are some episodes still missing or they claim to be still missing that could of been in these open air dates.

"Wit & Wisdom of Ed Norton" is a special created by MPI & released on VHS/DVD. It never aired on TV as a special. Again, MPI specials didn't say or note on screen, which the episode clip is from.

Personally, if this footage is from a Classic 39, it would most likely be more popular & we'd most likely know which episode it's from, as there were on 39 to chose from, especially given the info of Norton wearing a coat.

The apple episode is on the new box set (I just saw it the other day) & is different from this orange peeling scene.

As Bill S. as said, this is most likely from one of the 5 Audrey Meadows still lost programs. Leaving it from The Missing Pair of Pants, Easter Hats, Alice's Birthday, Halloween Party ('54), or Six Months To Live ('57).

If we see it again, we may be able to determine which show it's from by other details seen in the clip. Other than this, I don't think they say in the narration or on screen which episode it's from.

I have checked for this special @ my library last night & they don't have it in, but should be back within a week or so... unless someone else finds it sooner.

Regarding the "host doesn't inform the viewers of what episode it was from" - MPI did this on all specials. They never say or note on screen, which the episode clip is from. Making me think this is on the "Wit & Wisdom of Ed Norton". Sounds like a segment they would put on this special (that being the wisdom of Art Carney).
The host of the "Honeybloopers" special identified the episodes that were being shown, but that doesn't really help us.

@Bill S. - Yes - he was wearing his coat & I remember him sitting in the chair for what felt like 30+ seconds or so (not sure it was actually 2 minutes).
You've seen it too? Maybe the footage you guys remember is from a Classic 39 episode. If that's the case, it can't be the scene described in the book. I read somewhere that Kenneth Whelan worked on The Jackie Gleason Show for the first two seasons, so it must have happened then. The only sketches considered lost from that time period are "Missing Pants," "Easter Hats," and "Alice's Birthday."

Looking through the Complete Lost Episodes booklet with episode titles and air dates. You will notice that there are some weeks not listed. There are a few listings of almost a whole month before the next episode. Most likely they didn't do a Honeymooners every week. But is it possible that there are some episodes still missing or they claim to be still missing that could of been in these open air dates.
The only other possible sketch in question is an earlier version of "Sprained Thumb." There was no Honeymooners sketch performed on the date listed in the booklet, so if they did actually do an earlier version, it must have been on another date. Most gaps between shows can be explained, especially during the fourth season, as Gleason had many guest hosts. You may have noticed a big gap between "Cottage for Sale" and "Lawsuit," which was because Gleason broke his leg and was unable to perform.

Was the "Wit & Wisdom of Ed Norton" shown on tv as a special show ? Or was it VHS only? Is the VHS produced by MPI ? Which could be a problem as they don't give you much info and possibly holding back the episode other than the orange peeling scene.

I too remember the quality of the picture of the orange peeling being very good, much better than most Lost Episodes.

I remember that scene with Norton having his coat on walking over to the ice box taking an apple out then closing the door; then he takes out his hankerchief wipes the handle of the ice box off so no will see his finger prints.
This scene is not to be mixed up with the orange scene. The orange scene has Norton sitting down and peeling the orange.

Looking through the Complete Lost Episodes booklet with episode titles and air dates. You will notice that there are some weeks not listed. There are a few listings of almost a whole month before the next episode. Most likely they didn't do a Honeymooners every week. But is it possible that there are some episodes still missing or they claim to be still missing that could of been in these open air dates.

The way you describe the apple scene and the orange scene is the way I remember it and definitely those two clips are not to be confused for being the same segment.

@Bill S - I only remembered it after The Great One elaborated on the orange peeling in more detail. It's one of those thing I know I've seen, but it's been at least 15 years.

To recap...
It's Norton in the Kramden kitchen after Ralph & Alice have walked into the bedroom. Norton takes his time to stall, he peels an orange, keeps looking into the bedroom for Alice & Ralph. I would say it's a good minute before they return. Norton is dressed in a longer type winter coat. If I'm not mistaken, after he & Audrey return, Gleason makes a comment that explains his longer absence.

This is the most detail I can remember.

There seems to be some confusion if this is a Classic 39 or a Lost Episode.

I just finished going thru all the Classic 39's. There orange scene is not there...

Norton wears his longer style winter coat in 8 Classic 39's. They are...

1) Pardon My Glove.
In scene 2, Norton is in the apt @ the Kramden table eating an Apple & there is a bowl of fruit on the table. In scene 3, Norton enters wearing the coat.

2) Ralph Kramden, Inc: This episode Norton says: I don't like peanut butter. I like apples... or bananas... or oranges.

These 1st 2 are the only 2 which contain the coat & fruit is mentioned.

The next 6, no fruit is mentioned:

3) Head of the House
4) On Stage
5) Opportunity Knocks, But
6) A Dog's Life
7) Please Leave The Premises
8) Alice & the Blonde

My honest opinion is that this is a Lost Episode.

1) Because there is no evidence from going thru the Classic 39.

2) Because we think we saw it on an MPI special - MPI never produced specials w/ Classic 39 scenes in them. MPI only showed clips of Lost Episodes.

3) This is a live scene. Only a lost episode would continue filming. W/ the classic 39, if Gleason needed a break, I don't think they would keep filming.

@ The Great One - the apple & the orange scenes are, with out a doubt, 2 different scenes/episodes. 2 days ago I saw the apple scene on the new disc set, I just can't remember which one.

@ Bill S. - Hopefully with the new disc 15, we'll be able to read all 3 scripts & perhaps we'll be able to use this for more info.

I just got a copy of the following:

The Wit And Wisdom of Ed Norton

The History of The Lost Episodes The First Season


Today after church I will watch "The Wit And Wisdom of Ed Norton" and then I will post my comments about the contents on this message board between 4:00 PM - 5:00 PM Central Time.

I just finished watching "The Wit And Wisdom of Ed Norton" and the orange peeling clip does not appear this special. I'm not sure what other video there is for us to look at to solve this mystery so I'm hoping someone else on this forum comes up with a good idea for following another lead.

Did you check the other program on the special, "The very best of the Honeymooners"?

There is also another VHS, not sure if it's on DVD, "The History of the Honeymooners: The Lost Episodes: The First Season".

@Bill S - Do you still think you have this scene?

The History of The Honeymooners Lost Episode - The First Season does not have the orange peeling scene on it. I checked the DVD. Maybe the VHS is a little different since it was produced several years before DVD and MPI made some changes.

To answer some other posts about the orange peeling. This scene is no way a Classic 39 episode.

Also I can't remember if Norton had on a long coat when peeling the orange. If I had to pick I would say he didn't have a coat on.

The History of The Honeymooners Lost Episode - The First Season does not have the orange peeling scene on it. I checked the DVD. Maybe the VHS is a little different since it was produced several years before DVD and MPI made some changes.

To answer some other posts about the orange peeling. This scene is no way a Classic 39 episode.

Also I can't remember if Norton had on a long coat when peeling the orange. If I had to pick I would say he didn't have a coat on.

I don't remember Norton wearing a long coat while peeling an orange and waiting for Ralph and Alice to come back. The scene with Norton taking an apple from the icebox and then Alice soon after giving him another apple is the clip with the long coat. Also, I agree that the orange peeling scene is not part of the Classic 39.

Did anyone check "The Best of The Lost Episodes" for the orange peeling clip?

The scene with Norton getting the apple out of the ice box then wiping the handle with his hankercheif was from " This Is Your Life". Ralph was suppose to appear on the TV show--- This Is Your Life. Ralph blew it thinking that Alice was fooling around on him. Then Ralph eventually decks the representative of the TV show.

@BillMac - I just went to that scene in This Is Your Life & in regards to Norton wearing a long coat, I may have been confusing this with the Orange Peeling scene.

@The Great One - yes, I am more convinced now that the Orange Peeling scene is from the Lost Episodes. I do not have "The Best of The Lost Episodes". Checking w/ my library this week.

Another program that I think we might have seen it from & this goes back to what BillMac said about it airing on Showtime...

The syndicated 2-Hour special "The Honeymooners Anniversary Celebration" from 10/18/85 first aired on Showtime as "Jackie Gleason's Second Honeymoon" 8/19/85 as a shorter 1 hour special.

This was prior to Showtime's airing the Marathon on 9/2/85 and the premier of it as a weekly program beginning 9/4/85.

@Bill S - Do you recall having a copy of this 1 hour special from Showtime?

Perhaps "Jackie Gleason's Second Honeymoon" would have this clip. Not as many VCR were going strong then. I was lucky enough to have had Showtime, but can't recall if this is where I saw it.

Another idea is "The Honeymooners" 40th Anniversary celebration on The Joan Rivers Show (6/24/1987)?

I just found the VCR game earlier. I think I have the "Second Honeymoon" special as well. I'll check them both as soon as possible.

@BillMac - I just went to that scene in This Is Your Life & in regards to Norton wearing a long coat, I may have been confusing this with the Orange Peeling scene.

@The Great One - yes, I am more convinced now that the Orange Peeling scene is from the Lost Episodes. I do not have "The Best of The Lost Episodes". Checking w/ my library this week.

Another program that I think we might have seen it from & this goes back to what BillMac said about it airing on Showtime...

The syndicated 2-Hour special "The Honeymooners Anniversary Celebration" from 10/18/85 first aired on Showtime as "Jackie Gleason's Second Honeymoon" 8/19/85 as a shorter 1 hour special.

This was prior to Showtime's airing the Marathon on 9/2/85 and the premier of it as a weekly program beginning 9/4/85.

@Bill S - Do you recall having a copy of this 1 hour special from Showtime?

Perhaps "Jackie Gleason's Second Honeymoon" would have this clip. Not as many VCR were going strong then. I was lucky enough to have had Showtime, but can't recall if this is where I saw it.

Another idea is "The Honeymooners" 40th Anniversary celebration on The Joan Rivers Show (6/24/1987)?


I agree about the orange peeling scene being from the Lost Episodes! My memory is vague but with your description I do feel the clip we're looking for aired on Showtime in a special about the Honeymooners before they started to show most of the Lost Episodes. In the middle 80s I mainly watched MTV and Showtime so I think we are close to solving this mystery.

Thanks to ChrisTV's most recent post I can now recall more details after thinking a few hours about the information provide. Before the Lost Episodes aired there was a big build up promoting the additional episodes found with specials featuring clips no one has seen since the 50s. I remember being excited about seeing film footage of the Honeymooners I had never seen before. Up until that time all I ever saw and knew was the Classic 39. I believe we are on the right track with concentrating on the specials that Showtime produced in the middle 80s before airing the Lost Episodes.

I checked "Second Honeymoon" and the tape from the VCR game and there's no orange scene in either of them.

@Bill S - Was the "Second Honeymoon" special the hour long version from Showtime?

Can you recall any other Showtime specials that included Gleason/Honeymooners footage?

@The Great One - Do you remember Showtime airing commercial promos during the week airing odds & ends clips?

This is really bugging me, I remember a narrator introducing the clip.
This would make me think MPI Specials.

Yes, "Second Honeymoon" was the hour long version. I don't recall any other Showtime specials that you haven't already mentioned. I think I remember seeing that Joan Rivers special on somebody's trade list. I'll ask around and see what I can come up with.

I did not see the orange peeling scene on the Joan Rivers show. I have never saw her show. If she hosted a Honeymooners Special, then possibly on that show.

Weren't the Showtime Honeymooners shown before MPI took over ?

@Bill S. - Let me know if you do find the info for the Joan Rivers show. I would do a trade, just to get the special.

@BillMac - I believe the deal for Showtime & MPI were done at the same time.
Showtime had the exclusive airing rights for 1 year & then they went to syndication and at some point within that year MPI had home video rights.

Back to the MPI releases...

I did more research & it looks like "The Great Gleason" had 2 different releases.

Amazon's current release lists VHS release date 12/15/94 w/ a run time of 96 Mins.

Some eBay auctions & other google searches are listing VHS release date 10/21/87 w/ a run time of 90 Mins.

Now here's what I find interesting.

The 1994 release lists 90 minutes & the 1987 release lists 96 mins.
& when I search for the 1987 release, the shorter run time, the tag line for the VHS says... "Classic clips, bloopers, flub-ups and amazing adlibs with Art Carney."

The 1994 release does not have this tag line.

Any thoughts?

Lastly, Does anyone recall Time-Life releasing any Lost Episodes on DVD?

Possibly when MPI took over for the video rights this is where the editing and/or adding of scenes occured when they put them on VHS. This could also be why on the Great Gleason releases there are two different running times. If the running times are accurate. Would have to watch both videos.

If Showtime showed the orange peeling scene or the actual episode, did MPI purchase that scene/episode. If they did then they are holding out, if not did the film go back to the Gleason estate.

Why isn't just the scene being shown as it was the first time around. Where is it and who has it ?

As far as the tag line for the VHS-- Claasic clips, bloopers, flub ups and ad libs with Art Carney. Possibly MPI turned these into other VHS's like The Honeybloopers, Best of the Honeymooners, Greatest Battles and Wit and Wisdom of Ed Norton etc..

@Bill S - Was the "Second Honeymoon" special the hour long version from Showtime?

Can you recall any other Showtime specials that included Gleason/Honeymooners footage?

@The Great One - Do you remember Showtime airing commercial promos during the week airing odds & ends clips?

This is really bugging me, I remember a narrator introducing the clip.
This would make me think MPI Specials.

What I remember is watching a special that showed clips from the Lost Episodes with the host commenting on each segment. This was part of a build up and promotion before the episodes were aired on a weekly basis. The two parts that I remember were bloopers but I'm not sure if the entire special was about mistakes that were made on the set of the Honeymooners. I agree with what you said as this issue is bothering me as well. Thanks to you I've been thinking about something that I have long forgotten but thought was already on a video release.

I wish I could remember more about the scene. At first and to some extent I stll think it was an episode. You said you seen the scene on a special which is probably where I did see it.
I did read the book about the orange scene, then watching the Honeymooners the scene came on and I said " that's it, that's the scene.
I don't recall how much they showed leading up to the orange scene or how much after when Ralph and Alice returned. I don't remember when I saw the scene; either in the beginning of the weekly run or during.

So far you and I are the only ones that stated we have seen this orange peeling scene.

There must be others that are on these forums that saw it also.

If Showtime showed the orange peeling scene or the actual episode, did MPI purchase that scene/episode. If they did then they are holding out, if not did the film go back to the Gleason estate.

Why isn't just the scene being shown as it was the first time around. Where is it and who has it ?
MPI has the distribution rights to The Jackie Gleason Show, which covers every Honeymooners sketch that aired from 1952-1957. The source of most of the material that they've released has been Gleason's vault, but even he didn't have everything and some kinescopes had reportedly deteriorated over time. Other copies of missing or damaged shows have turned up in the past, as was the case with "The Turkey" and the original "Love Letter," but if the people at MPI aren't aware of a show being found, then they won't be able to release it.

Holding back one scene for a future release wouldn't make any sense, considering that there probably won't be another release like this for a long, long time. If the footage you're referring to is from a missing show and it's out there somewhere, chances are the people that were working on this new box set didn't have access to it, which is unfortunate. All we can do at this point is try and find the footage in question and figure out whether or not it's from an unreleased episode.

Just trying to help dig into the minds a bit more....

@BillMac - Because you think it was in an episode & less likely part of a special, then yes, most likely it would have been on Showtime then. Because people are remembering it as clear footage, that makes it sound like it would be from a later episode, leaving it to be from "Six Months to Live" 5/11/57.

When watching the 12/13/52 version, there is only 1 scene at the beginning when Gleason, Carney & Meadows are together. Because the 1957 version is a remake, it may be the reason we remember the story, but don't remember more specifics.

Now, in the 1952 version, Alice has an eye patch on.

Does anyone know if Meadows was actually hurt, or was this part of the sketch?

Trying to think of another reason why Gleason would have walked off stage other that what's been posted about he needing to wipe his brow, which sounds like he could have done this on stage.

Anyone have the older "The Great Gleason" VHS from 1987?

I am thinking that the orange peel was an episode because that's all I remember seeing on Showtime each week were episodes. If it was on a special than I do not recall. You said that it was on a special so I will go along with that since I can't remember everything from 20+ years ago.

Will check out the Classic 39 version of " Six Months to Live" to see how much these episodes {1952 version} are similar. See if there is a scene where Ralph, Ed and Alice are together then Ralph and Alice go into the bedroom then return.

As I do recall in the orange peel scene, after Ralph and Alice go into the bedroom, Ed can be seen looking into the bedroom from the table a few times wondering where are they. Knowing they should of been back by now.

What is written in the book about the orange peel scene: Gleason went through the bedroom door, followed by Meadows. According to the script, Audrey was supposed to return with Gleason immediately. According to Eddie Brinkman, the stage manager, Audrey couldn't find Gleason when she went through the bedroom door. Being a little confused and thinking he had a little more time, he went looking for a kleenex to mop his sweating brow.

I am thinking that the orange peel was an episode because that's all I remember seeing on Showtime each week were episodes. If it was on a special than I do not recall. You said that it was on a special so I will go along with that since I can't remember everything from 20+ years ago.

Will check out the Classic 39 version of " Six Months to Live" to see how much these episodes {1952 version} are similar. See if there is a scene where Ralph, Ed and Alice are together then Ralph and Alice go into the bedroom then return.

As I do recall in the orange peel scene, after Ralph and Alice go into the bedroom, Ed can be seen looking into the bedroom from the table a few times wondering where are they. Knowing they should of been back by now.

What is written in the book about the orange peel scene: Gleason went through the bedroom door, followed by Meadows. According to the script, Audrey was supposed to return with Gleason immediately. According to Eddie Brinkman, the stage manager, Audrey couldn't find Gleason when she went through the bedroom door. Being a little confused and thinking he had a little more time, he went looking for a kleenex to mop his sweating brow.

You're definitely right about Ed looking into the bedroom from the table a few times wondering where Ralph and Alice are because this is how I remember it.

@BillMac - Because you think it was in an episode & less likely part of a special, then yes, most likely it would have been on Showtime then.I am thinking that the orange peel was an episode because that's all I remember seeing on Showtime each week were episodes.
Here's a list of the 70 episodes that aired on Showtime in the 80s: http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showpost.php?p=3374155&postcount=16 If the scene you remember isn't from one of those, then it had to have aired as part of a special.

As I do recall in the orange peel scene, after Ralph and Alice go into the bedroom, Ed can be seen looking into the bedroom from the table a few times wondering where are they. Knowing they should of been back by now.You're definitely right about Ed looking into the bedroom from the table a few times wondering where Ralph and Alice are because this is how I remember it.
There's a similar scene at the beginning of "A Little Man Who Wasn't There," where Norton takes some milk from the Kramdens' ice box and checks a couple times to make sure nobody's home. Have either of you checked that episode? Maybe they showed a clip from that and then cut to a scene of Carney peeling an orange. Just a suggestion...

Now, in the 1952 version, Alice has an eye patch on. Does anyone know if Meadows was actually hurt, or was this part of the sketch? If I remember correctly, Audrey had some kind of allergic reaction, so they wrote the eye patch bit into the sketch. She mentions it in her book at some point.

Here's a list of the 70 episodes that aired on Showtime in the 80s: http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showpost.php?p=3374155&postcount=16 If the scene you remember isn't from one of those, then it had to have aired as part of a special.




There's a similar scene at the beginning of "A Little Man Who Wasn't There," where Norton takes some milk from the Kramdens' ice box and checks a couple times to make sure nobody's home. Have either of you checked that episode? Maybe they showed a clip from that and then cut to a scene of Carney peeling an orange. Just a suggestion...

If I remember correctly, Audrey had some kind of allergic reaction, so they wrote the eye patch bit into the sketch. She mentions it in her book at some point.

Not a bad suggestion but I don't think they showed two clips side by side. I believe the host of the special mentioned before showing the orange peeling scene how Jackie Gleason rarely missed his cue while on the Honeymooners.

@BillMac - I'm leaning more towards a special. Only because I believe I've seen it within the last 20 years.

@The Great one - Thats exactly how I remember it too. I seem to also remember Carney leaning or sitting on the table & not sitting.... Do you remember any of the specifics of this?

@Bill S - Regarding the Showtime episode list, Here are the 7 episodes that aired in the 9/2/85 marathon... "The Cold", "Pickles", "Suspence", "Brother-In-Law", "Alice's Aunt Ethel", "Norton Moves In" and "Glow Worm Cleaning". I had this marathon on VHS years back, don't have now - could kick myself!!
The list is not in order for when they regularly aired. "Ralph's Sweet Tooth" was the 1st weekly episode airing 9/5/85.

I checked out "A Little Man Who Wasn't There" & there is no edit in the episode for this scene. The milk sequence is in it & is hysterical.

Regarding the eye patch, I guess then the remakes of "Six Months To Live" would not have the eye patch bit included.

Will keep pondering.....

Chris TV= Do you remember anything else about the special, what they might of shown.

Some years ago there was an fan club called R.A.L.P.H. which I found out is no longer functioning. Does any one know of any contacts from that club. Maybe they could shed some light on the orange peeling scene.

@BillMac - I only remember the 7 episodes & in between each was a "commercial" break w/ a promo for "Ralph's Sweet Tooth" airing in it's regular time slot the following Thursday night. Regarding R.A.L.P.H....

I sent an email to Peter Crescenti (R.A.L.P.H. founder & writer of The Official Honeymooners Treasury). Did a google search & tracked him on Facebook.

BillMac also mentioned Eddie Brinkman, the stage manager for TGS. So I did some google searching & found Steven Wexler, Eddie's grandson & Nancy Brinkmann, his niece on a CBS archives site - who just so happen to be putting together a scrapbook page for Eddie. There were email addresses listed, so I'm asking them if they know anything. This one's a stretch...

Also....

I sent a post card to Joyce Randolph today. I'm hoping it sticks out. I wrote "Help w/ Missing Scene" on it. & told her she was great on the show, wished her well, etc.

Also.... I emailed Stu @ SHOKUS INTERNET RADIO - he knows quite a lot, but he replied & this rings no bells to him.

I'll keep everyone posted....

Chris TV= You sure are doing your homework. Great job. I wouldn't even know where to begin with what you are doing.

With several contacts hopefully all or any can give some info about the orange scene. Possibly they may know other contacts to ask. This sort of puts the Showtime viewing on the back burner.
What is in question now is. What episode was it from ? Is there a surviving episode ? What is the episode about ? Who has it ? Why isn't it being shown ? What did Showtime do with it ?

The most logical tape it should of been on was " The Wit and Wisdom of Ed Norton".

@BillMac - I'm leaning more towards a special. Only because I believe I've seen it within the last 20 years.

@The Great one - Thats exactly how I remember it too. I seem to also remember Carney leaning or sitting on the table & not sitting.... Do you remember any of the specifics of this?

@Bill S - Regarding the Showtime episode list, Here are the 7 episodes that aired in the 9/2/85 marathon... "The Cold", "Pickles", "Suspence", "Brother-In-Law", "Alice's Aunt Ethel", "Norton Moves In" and "Glow Worm Cleaning". I had this marathon on VHS years back, don't have now - could kick myself!!
The list is not in order for when they regularly aired. "Ralph's Sweet Tooth" was the 1st weekly episode airing 9/5/85.

I checked out "A Little Man Who Wasn't There" & there is no edit in the episode for this scene. The milk sequence is in it & is hysterical.

Regarding the eye patch, I guess then the remakes of "Six Months To Live" would not have the eye patch bit included.

Will keep pondering.....

I remember Norton sitting and peeling the orange and he was wearing a shirt and not a coat.

@BillMac - I only remember the 7 episodes & in between each was a "commercial" break w/ a promo for "Ralph's Sweet Tooth" airing in it's regular time slot the following Thursday night. Regarding R.A.L.P.H....

I sent an email to Peter Crescenti (R.A.L.P.H. founder & writer of The Official Honeymooners Treasury). Did a google search & tracked him on Facebook.

BillMac also mentioned Eddie Brinkman, the stage manager for TGS. So I did some google searching & found Steven Wexler, Eddie's grandson & Nancy Brinkmann, his niece on a CBS archives site - who just so happen to be putting together a scrapbook page for Eddie. There were email addresses listed, so I'm asking them if they know anything. This one's a stretch...

Also....

I sent a post card to Joyce Randolph today. I'm hoping it sticks out. I wrote "Help w/ Missing Scene" on it. & told her she was great on the show, wished her well, etc.

Also.... I emailed Stu @ SHOKUS INTERNET RADIO - he knows quite a lot, but he replied & this rings no bells to him.

I'll keep everyone posted....

Wow!!! Awesome way to go about trying to solve this mystery! This should be the method that finally gives all of us the answer we're looking for.

Chris TV= You sure are doing your homework. Great job. I wouldn't even know where to begin with what you are doing.

With several contacts hopefully all or any can give some info about the orange scene. Possibly they may know other contacts to ask. This sort of puts the Showtime viewing on the back burner.
What is in question now is. What episode was it from ? Is there a surviving episode ? What is the episode about ? Who has it ? Why isn't it being shown ? What did Showtime do with it ?

The most logical tape it should of been on was " The Wit and Wisdom of Ed Norton".

I agree! I though we were going to find the orange peeling clip on "The Wit and Wisdom of Ed Norton".

Was there any other cable tv movie channels that were involved that might of shown "The Honeymooners" Lost Episodes when they first came out. Like CineMax, The Movie Channel and HBO etc..

I would say no to HBO.

I don't remember any other cable channel showing The Honeymooners Lost Episodes.

So far no luck...

No reply from Joyce Randolph or Peter Crescenti.

Stu @ SHOKUS INTERNET RADIO did reply, but had no info.

Steven Wexler, Eddie Brinkman's grandson & Nancy Brinkmann, his niece also both replied, however, neither had no info either. Both were very glad to here from me. Both said they would investigate further & would reply if any info was found. Steve passed along the following link, with some great photos. (That's Eddie receiving the pen set from Gleason)...

http://imgur.com/a/M7QeH#1

@BillMac & The Great One - Specials aired on NBC, Fox, CBS, The Disney Channel & in syndication. Lost Episodes never appeared as a series on any other cable channel.

It's interesting to hear that Peter Crescenti hasn't replied to your email. He would be one of the best sources to contact for help in solving the orange peeling scene mystery as he is a Honeymooners expert.

It's been almost a year since anybody's posted in this thread, but I just came across a VHS compilation on eBay that I don't think I've seen, so I figured I'd mention it here. It's called "Jackie Gleason - And Away We Go," commemorating 60 years in show business and is said to include "rare footage." I don't know when it was released or what company released it, but it may be worth a look. I recently got rid of my VCR, so I have no way of viewing the tape. If anyone with a VCR would be willing to buy this and let us know what's on it and if it contains any unreleased footage, that would be great. It costs $8.00 with shipping and ends in a little over 5 days as of this posting. Here's the link:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JACKIE-GLEASON-AND-AWAY-WE-GOES-VHS-60-YEARS-IN-SHOW-BUSINESS-B-/290794755703?pt=VHS&hash=item43b4b7d677

Just ordered the tape.

It's been almost a year since anybody's posted in this thread, but I just came across a VHS compilation on eBay that I don't think I've seen, so I figured I'd mention it here. It's called "Jackie Gleason - And Away We Go," commemorating 60 years in show business and is said to include "rare footage." I don't know when it was released or what company released it, but it may be worth a look. I recently got rid of my VCR, so I have no way of viewing the tape. If anyone with a VCR would be willing to buy this and let us know what's on it and if it contains any unreleased footage, that would be great. It costs $8.00 with shipping and ends in a little over 5 days as of this posting. Here's the link:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JACKIE-GLEASON-AND-AWAY-WE-GOES-VHS-60-YEARS-IN-SHOW-BUSINESS-B-/290794755703?pt=VHS&hash=item43b4b7d677

I had this tape (keyword: had) and donated it with a bunch of other VHS tapes to the Veterans Home in Sandusky. It contains nothing but public domain material, i.e. some Cavalcade clips, one of the Ed Sullivan Honeymooners, and I think some clips from the first American Scene.

I had this tape (keyword: had) and donated it with a bunch of other VHS tapes to the Veterans Home in Sandusky. It contains nothing but public domain material, i.e. some Cavalcade clips, one of the Ed Sullivan Honeymooners, and I think some clips from the first American Scene.
Wouldn't that make the first American Scene show public domain?

I had this tape (keyword: had) and donated it with a bunch of other VHS tapes to the Veterans Home in Sandusky. It contains nothing but public domain material, i.e. some Cavalcade clips, one of the Ed Sullivan Honeymooners, and I think some clips from the first American Scene.

Looks like things I wouldn't be interested in. I only hastily bought it out of fear that someone else would snatch it away from me.

After examining this thread, I came to the conclusion that the orange peeling scene MAY be on these pieces of footage that I don't have:

- Joan Rivers – 40th Anniversary of the Honeymooners

- Second Honeymoon (Two hour) (This I am not sure of. Is this the one where Bob Hope appears? If it is, I can safely say that that scene is not on this special since I have it and I would have seen it.)

- "21" Press Release.

- Original release of "The Great Gleason" (This one I am not sure of since when I saw this footage on Ebay, I asked the seller if this scene is on the tape. His reply: "This is a look at Gleason's career." I think he didn't examine the tape because I think I have the '94 release and that release has a few Gleason bloopers on it when the narrator talked about bloopers.)

@ Benno - I had the same video & sold it 15 years when others came along. Maybe the orange peeling scene is on it.

@ Bill. I remember the VHS of Jackie Gleason American Scene Magazine w/ the "Two Below" episode was public domain. Maybe since Paul Brownstein purchased it, it's now Copyrighted.

Wouldn't that make the first American Scene show public domain?

It's been my belief that the first episode was public domain because of it's release by Goodtimes Home Video. Now since that time the show could have been renewed (i.e. what happened with It's A Wonderful Life) or the show never was in the public domain and Goodtimes released it anyway. That has happened before. (The Three Stooges short "Heavenly Daze" falls into that category.)

Well, like Benno more or less said, "Jackie Gleason: Away We Go", does not have the orange peeling scene in it.

Now, I am wondering if the original release of the Great Gleason has it. Hmmmm.

I'm thinking the way you're thinking Frank. I remember watching the Great Gleason dozens of times & I swear "Sprained Thumb" was the last sketch on the vhs on early versions as well.

Back to the MPI releases...

I did more research & it looks like "The Great Gleason" had 2 different releases.

Amazon's current release lists VHS release date 12/15/94 w/ a run time of 96 Mins.

Some eBay auctions & other google searches are listing VHS release date 10/21/87 w/ a run time of 90 Mins.

Now here's what I find interesting.

The 1994 release lists 90 minutes & the 1987 release lists 96 mins.
& when I search for the 1987 release, the shorter run time, the tag line for the VHS says... "Classic clips, bloopers, flub-ups and amazing adlibs with Art Carney."

The 1994 release does not have this tag line.

Any thoughts?

Lastly, Does anyone recall Time-Life releasing any Lost Episodes on DVD?

I did some research. i screened my copy which i bought from Amazon.com in 2005. Amazon.com claims that it is from '94 but that may be incorrect. it clocks in at almost 96 min. Hmmmmm.....

There have been many posts on this exact subject Frank. I've seen dozens of sites with 3 different run times for this release. All 3 were a combo of VHS & DVD.

I finally came across a trade list I've been looking for. The contact info for the person has changed, but the list appears to be the same. They seem to have everything we're looking for except the Joan Rivers show. Here are the shows of interest:

Time & Again MSNBC - The Honeymooners 1hr
Jackie Gleason's Second Honeymoon - Jackie Hosts with guests Art, Audrey & Joyce 1hr
The Honeymooners 35th Anniversary Special- 11/12/1990 Host Audrey meadows (60min)
The Honeymooners: The Lost Episodes Marathon 9/1/1985 (Showtime) 3hrs
Gleason He's The Greatest Special w/interviews 11/30/1988 3hrs
And Away We Go - TV Special Bio (1950's)
The Great Gleason MPI VIDEO 10/21/1987 (Rare Clips) (95min)
60 Minutes 1984- UNCUT VERSION! TV Land (28 min)
Tony Orlando & Dawn Show- 1974 (1 hr.) (Gleason)
Tony Orlando & Dawn Show- 1975 1hr (Carney)
CBS NEWS NY at 21 Club - 1985 Press Party w/ Jackie & Audrey Interviews
NBC News NY- About the new "Lost Episodes" 1985 release.
Honeymooners Showtime Marathon w/Jackie int. seg.

Assuming this is the same person I'm thinking of, these shows were on their want list several years back (more to keep an eye out for):

Gleason: In His Own Words (TV) Jackie,Audrey,Art 2-14-86
ABC News Nightline: Jackie Gleason 6/24/1987
20/20 Celebrates Jackie Gleason's 60th Birthday ABC 2/26/1981
The Wonderful World of Jackie Gleason- 1964 Special with Art Carney

Here's one of their listings on iOffer with contact info: http://www.ioffer.com/i/the-honeymooners-unreleased-the-adoption-1-8-1966-492536570

Anyone have an iOffer account or want to try contacting them via email?

i just sent him and e-mail and a question through ioffer this morning. i have yet to get a reply back. i know it has been less than a day but considerating that i contacted him in the past and he sometimes doesn't respond, i have my doubts. Thank you anyway Bill.

After seeing this list there is no doubt in my mind that this is the same person who screwed me on a trade a couple of years back. I would proceed with caution, though of course I should try to buy something cheap and see if he even sends it to me!

In regards to that Ioffer guy, me and him have been e-mailing back and forth for the past two weeks in regards to NEW items that he claims that he has. I have been e-mailing him for a week and I have yet to get a response. Maybe he is busy with the holidays and all but I hope he doesn't ignore me forever.

By the way, I found out that the original release of the Great Gleason is copy protected. The one that I got in 2005 isn't. So, if Art Carney peeling an orange is on that tape (doubtful) than nobody can post screen caps unless they can post pictures from an IPhone.

Been doing some more research. Found some sites that talk about this.

From story on Art Carney's death...

http://rense.com/general44/honey.htm

"When Gleason once missed a cue to enter during a live broadcast, Carney looked inside the set refrigerator, pulled out an orange and for almost a full minute peeled it with humorous aplomb. The moment was remembered as a classic comedy ad-lib."

--------------------------------

From Art Carney's book...

http://books.google.com/books?id=dz0-xKo15WEC&pg=PA186&lpg=PA186&dq=carney+norton+orange+peeling&source=bl&ots=mPyy_H_COE&sig=ur2mOqRjU6GpdFDa_hawGT0pHBg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Y_0AUfzrOoqn0AGh4IHoAg&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=carney%20norton%20orange%20peeling&f=false

"He left Art Carney onstage alone.... Carney improvised action for Ed Norton. He looked around, scratched himself, then went to the Kramden refrigerator and peered in. He pulled out an orange, shuffled to the table, and sat down and peeled it."

--------------------------------

From story on TVLand's airing "The Adoption"...

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2000-03-15/features/0003150218_1_honeymooners-jackie-gleason-classic-39

"in one famous instance, Gleason missed his cue to come onstage, and Carney was forced to improvise an entire skit about peeling an orange"

--------------------------------

a person's recollection on another blog...

http://www.findadeath.com/forum/showthread.php?2734-Art-Carney

"Carney on stage by himself decided to raid the Kramdens fridge, and with luck found an orange which he took to the kitchen table and spent the next 2 minutes peeling until Gleason and Meadows returned."

--------------------------------

& from People Magazine archive (NOTE THE DATE 9/23/85)...

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20091779,00.html

"Once, when someone missed an entrance, Carney, alone onstage, went to the fridge, found an orange and peeled it for almost two minutes."

--------------------------------

Regarding this last posting 9/23/85, this is weeks after Showtime airing "Jackie Gleason's Second Honeymoon" & "The Honeymooners: The Lost Episodes Marathon".

I have gone through every Lost Episode again, & triple checked the 10 episodes that aired on that marathon. There is no evidence of anyplace that an edit would have occurred where this clip would have been cut from.

--------------------------------

I went back and read thru all of the posts from this entry & the the part that sticks out the most is...

"What is written in the book about the orange peel scene: Gleason went through the bedroom door, followed by Meadows. According to the script, Audrey was supposed to return with Gleason immediately. According to Eddie Brinkman, the stage manager, Audrey couldn't find Gleason when she went through the bedroom door. Being a little confused and thinking he had a little more time, he went looking for a kleenex to mop his sweating brow."

So, Ralph leaving to the bedroom & Alice following & bringing him back were apparently scripted.

--------------------------------

In 1986 Gleason was inducted into the TV Hall of Fame. Parts of this special are on youtube, but not the Gleason segment. Perhaps it was on this.

Has anyone gone through any additional VHSs/DVDs?

So, Ralph leaving to the bedroom & Alice following & bringing him back were apparently scripted.
Do Ralph & Alice go into the bedroom in any of the three scripts from the 60th set?

@ Bill S. - I just transcribed The Missing Pair of Pants, Easter Hats & Alice's Birthday. That was not fun, I don't care what reviews said regarding "the larger your TV screen, the easier the scripts are to read." - What a bunch of malarkey! In any case....

In The Missing Pair of Pants has at 1 point [Ralph storms off to bedroom.....]
At no point in the script having Alice going in after him. Alice goes into bedroom later, but Ralph is already pacing kitchen as Norton enters. Norton has 6 lines in this.

In Easter Hats Trixie is in kitchen with Alice they enter bedroom, Norton & Ralph are in kitchen entire time. Trixie & Alice return to kitchen & Trixie & Ed leave.

In Alice's Birthday Alice & Trixie are in kitchen entire time until they go up to Trixies. Ralph & Norton are in the kitchen the entire time, Alice returns & Norton leaves. Ralph goes into bedroom for a jacket while all the party guests arrive.

Regarding it appearing in Sprained Thumb supposedly airing 10/4/52 - as I stated in the (3rd Es Sullivan sketch post) on the Anniversary Special hosted by Audrey Meadows she clearly states that Quiz Show was only the 4th time that Gleason, Carney, she & Randolph worked together. And later that special she says for Lost Baby, that it's only the 3rd time. This would be correct due to The New Bowling Ball & The Turkey being the 1st & 2nd. So this to is doubtful!!

This leaves Halloween Party 10/30/54 & Six Months To Live 5/11/57. It can't be Halloween Party due to everyone being in costume. Leaving Six Months To Live 5/11/57.

I cannot find the other post regarding "Norton coming through the window because the door wouldn't open" - the story Mike Douglas spoke of... Did anyone remember seeing it? I remember something about a delivery man, etc. Now that the 3 lost scripts are posted, If the story is true & there is another episode containing this event, it could be from either still lost "Alice's Birthday" or "Six Months To Live".

First off, thanks Chris for posting those scripts. Now, having read through them, it seems unlikely that either scene would have occurred during "Missing Pants" or "Easter Hats." "Alice's Birthday," on the other hand, does contain this interesting line, followed by Gleason going into the bedroom shortly thereafter:
Norton
Okay but first I want to get a piece of fruit. I'm starved.
I know that, according to the script, Gleason's not supposed to go into the bedroom until after Carney leaves, but it wouldn't be the first time things didn't go exactly as planned. Being that Carney would've known there was going to be fruit in the ice box, that may have prompted him to go over there after being left on stage alone. Just a guess.

One account of the orange story was told by Kenneth Whelan, who I was under the impression worked on the show for the first two seasons...I don't know where I got that information from, as I can't find a source now. He did work on the show for two years though, and depending on which two years, that could have included when "Halloween Party for the Boss" aired. Since there is a chance "for the Boss" could be an expanded, full-length show, there's no telling what might have been added to that script. Mr. Whelan wrote a book entitled "How The Golden Age of Television Turned My Hair To Silver." (http://www.amazon.com/Golden-Television-Turned-Hair-Silver/dp/0802704204/ref=tmm_pap_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1359499307&sr=1-3) Has anybody read this? Perhaps it would have some clues in it.

As for the window scene, it's been said that a Western Union boy was supposed to come to the door in the script, as is the case with "Six Months to Live"...

You're welcome Bill! Glad we finally have them for research. & great thought on the fruit. It sounds odd Gleason would have went into bedroom to wipe his brow. He could have used his sleeve or something else. To me it sounds like he may not have felt well, doesn't it? It is possible that while Gleason was talking to Carney while Meadows & Randolph were upstairs, Gleason said to Carney, I'll be right back, & walked into bedroom or did it after Meadows returned from upstairs & Gleason told them both he'd be right back, even though Carney is there for only 1 line after she returns. Very interesting indeed...

I couldn't help but return to The Dorsey Bothers Show and review that footage. I know I had posted on this before, but I think I found something new...

This episodes is filled with flubbed lines and really odd edits.
Gleason seems a bit on edge in this episode, maybe it's because this is a big reunion for the Dorsey's. Note, that this is the first time both Tommy & Jimmy Dorsey's band performs as 1 on television (according to IMDB.). Perhaps Gleason's nerves were on edge & it made him nauseous.

Which leads to the orange peeling scene possibility...

At 9:00 minutes in is the 1st odd edit. There's no music ending the scene & no music on intro to the next scene. At end of that 1st scene, Gleason sure looks like he's about to turn & enter the bedroom - for what, I can't figure that out (especially if he's to do so per the script), but this would leave Meadows & Carney on stage alone eventually leading to Meadows looking for Gleason & leaving Carney on stage alone.

Now the new info... go to 11:45.

Tommy Dorsey enters, they introduce each other....

Meadows says...
"Shall I put some fruit on the table, Ralph"

Gleason says...
"Why?, nobody's sick"

and the audience laughs like it's an inside joke. Perhaps someone got sick, like I said, perhaps it was Gleason.

I can't imagine why Alice would ask this like that?

Something tells me this is not in the script. Sure seems like an ad lib!!

Wouldn't Alice just ask Dorsey if he'd like some fruit?

Seems so off that it was asked that way & Gleason would reply with what he said.

At 12:40 Alice brings the fruit bowl to Tommy Dorsey & says
"Care for a piece of fruit Mr Dorsey?"
& Ralph gives him a banana from the bowl.

At 16:50 Ralph gives Jimmy a banana & takes it back.

I do believe these last 2 bits were scripted, but the fruit seems so prominent in this scene & even more so perhaps because of what possibly happened with Carney & the orange.

Thoughts?

I don't think anything was cut from "Dorsey Brothers Show," unless the footage was damaged. Being that this was one of the first "full-length" shows, I'm sure the entire cast was a bit on edge. If you take a look at the '52 Christmas show from earlier that season, there were also some flubbed lines. With the cast and crew under that kind of pressure, especially with having to squeeze in the performances, it's possible that the abrupt cut and lack of closing or opening music for those scenes was in order to speed things up. We all remember what happened with "Stand In for Murder." As for the fruit, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe in at least one account of the orange story, it was said that all that was in the ice box was an orange. Kenneth Whelan's book is probably our best bet at getting any more answers at this point.

I agree with you Bill. I'm not sure regarding the story of there only being the 1 orange in the icebox. What getting at me is the dialog here:

Meadows says...
"Shall I put some fruit on the table, Ralph"

Gleason says...
"Why?, nobody's sick"

... feels like it has no need to be in here at all. & feels like an inside joke.

Went to the library today. Kenneth Whelan's book wasn't in my library, but is in another town in the county. I have reserved it & should have it early next week. I will read asap & post any findings.

Here is the "orange peeling" section from the Kenneth Whelan book "How The Golden Age of Television Turned My Hair To Silver." This is verbatim from chapter 6, pages 71-72, "The Jackie Gleason Show":

"No matter how much rehearsing was done in Gleason's penthouse, and no matter how much rehearsing was done on camera, there were certain things that were bound to happen on air. They were human mistakes, but they could have been made only during the days of live television. In later years, when Gleason's shows were done on videotape, these errors were erased and the scene was done over again.

For instance, I remember one Saturday night when Gleason made an exit through the Honeymooners' bedroom door, and forgot to come back.

Gleason went through the bedroom door, followed later by Audrey Meadows. According to the script, Audrey was supposed to return with Gleason, immediately. according to Eddie Brinkman, the stage manager, Audrey couldn't find Gleason when she went through the bedroom door. Being a little confused, and thinking he had a little more time, he had gone looking for a Kleenex to mop his sweating brow.

As a result, no one came back through that bedroom door, and Art Carney was left all alone on the stage. Now remember, this was live television. Millions of people were watching, and that ramp camera had nothing else to shoot but Art Carney. He was alone, and those millions of people expected him to do something funny.

Carney could have done many things. He could have looked at the camera, imagined all the people watching him, gulped and headed for the nearest bar. He could have become frozen with fright. He could have apologized to the viewers, explaining the situation, and asking them to understand. He didn't do any of these things. Instead, he wandered over to the icebox that was a permanent fixture in the Honeymooners set. He made a funny bit out of looking through the icebox for something to eat.

We were holding our breath in the control room. The stage manager was running around backstage trying to find Gleason while Carney continued to bluff it out on stage. By some miracle of good luck, Art found an orange in the icebox, and for the next two minutes he sat at the kitchen table and peeled that orange. That's all he did, so help me god. He didn't say a word. He just sat there in front of millions of people, and peeled an orange. Of course, it was the funniest two minutes I've ever seen, but that's not important. What stunned me was the complete trust this man had in his own talent. He never faltered for a split second, and I doubt if anyone watching the show at home was aware that anything was wrong.

Jackie and Audrey made their entrance through the bedroom door before Art finished peeling the orange, but I was convinced that if they hadn't shown up when they did, Carney could have gone on for hours thinking of funny things to do.

Incidentally, that's the only cue I remember Gleason missing during the two years I worked on the show. It wasn't because he was such a hard worker, or that he rehearsed himself to death. (I always believed that he was basically lady.) Gleason has a photographic memory. He could memorize an entire Honeymooners sketch in one hour, and be letter perfect three days later when he went on the air."

Some notes, this orange peeling section pretty much completes this chapter of his book. He finishes out "TJGS" chapter describing some flubs regarding Reggie Van Gleason. Interestingly, prior to the orange peeling, he talks about his hatred on working at "The Jackie Gleason Show" and more so about director, Frank Satenstein, who as it turns out was better known as "Frankenstein".

To recap, Gleason, Meadows & Carney were on stage at 1 time. The script called for Gleason to walk off & Meadows to follow & immediately return.

Because the way it's said: "By some miracle of good luck, Art found an orange in the icebox, and for the next two minutes he sat at the kitchen table and peeled that orange."

Because the way this is written, it makes it sound like there was to be no fruit in the fridge. Which disproves my theory this would be from "The Dorsey Brothers Show". However, I still think there is something odd about the lines by Meadows & Gleason...

Meadows says...
"Shall I put some fruit on the table, Ralph"

Gleason says...
"Why?, nobody's sick"

I'm still thinking that the reason Gleason could have been off stage so long was he got sick.

I believe that's the same exact story published in either the Lost Episodes book or "The Honeymooners Companion." It's very frustrating that none of these accounts give us any real plot information. According to IMDb (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1071916/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1), Kenneth Whelan was born in Marshfield, Massachusetts, but it doesn't list any date of birth or death...I wonder if he's still alive. Regarding the "Nobody's sick" line, the only way to tell for sure if that was an ad-lib would be to look at the script at UCLA. I have a feeling those scripts would help clear up some other stuff too, the only problem would be getting copies of them.

I checked & is not in the Lost Episodes book, must be in companion. The IMDB doesn't give much info & other searches I did come up empty as well. I would love to see the UCLA scripts. Let's keep searching!!

Did anybody try to, contact Miss Joyce Randolph, to see what she remembers?

I did try last Christmas & never received a reply.

I just sent another letter & autograph request to Joyce Randolph. We'll wait & see.

FYI, both stories, orange peeling & Carney thru the window, are discussed in Annie McGarry's 1992 book "The Honeymooners", page 38. But of course, no mention of dates & titles. BTW, not a bad book, lots of photos & behind the scenes stories (most we already know).

I just found ths tapes on ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Jackie-Gleason-3-Complete-Video-Tapes-/160966058820?pt=VHS&hash=item257a532344.

One of the tapes is Jackiie Gleason with Art Carney. I am thinking maybe the Ed Norton scenes are on this tape but consiiderating one of the other tapes is Jackie Gleason: Away We Go (a tape that has PD material), I seriously doubt it. BTW, as I write this the auction ends in two days.

I owned these tapes at 1 point. If memory serves me correct, this was all stock footage thats been out there on others tapes for the past 25 years.

I owned these tapes at 1 point. If memory serves me correct, this was all stock footage thats been out there on others tapes for the past 25 years.

I have been looking for this episode for years and must assume it is lost. I would love to see it again as I always thought it was one of the funniest scenes I have ever seen on TV. I definitely saw it live when I was 12 on a Saturday evening while in Study Hall. Gleason walked off through the Bedroom door. Alice followed soon after when he didn't return leaving Ed on stage. Ed walked to the icebox, got an orange and started peeling it. It was hilarious and I assumed it was just part of the program. Because other programs sometimes had the feel of "purposely" looking unrehearsed I assumed it was scripted. Around the same period Perry Como was notorious for playing gags on his guests during his live show and they looked rehearsed - although they were not. Likewise Red Skelton - although that always looked like it was part of the show.

Hi Fixxed!
You can help solve the mystery.
You say you saw it live when you were 12 on a Saturday evening while in Study Hall.
Do you remember the, season, month, perhaps day. This could help solve which episode it is from.
We know it was from Sept 1952 - June 1954.
Any info you give could help.
Thanks,
Chris

I definitely saw it live when I was 12 on a Saturday evening while in Study Hall.

You were in study hall on a Saturday evening? Hmmm ...

I still say it's just a bunch of bunk, 30 years ago these people were "remembering" things that happened 30 years previously. Now these people are 30 years older, or dead, and "memories" aren't always accurate. Merv Griffin said he saw it but I don't believe him. Many people said that they saw Johnny Carson tell Zsa Zsa Gabor "I would if you would remove that damn cat" after she apparently asked if he wanted to pet her @*&$%. Or people claimed that they heard Groucho tell a woman with upteen million kids that he loved his cigar but he takes it out of mouth when in fact it has been proven that this exchange never aired, if it even happened at all.

It's interesting and fun to read people's thoughts and ideas, but I just do not believe that the orange thing ever happened. And the episode where Art Carney goes through the window? I think people are remembering the "Stand-In For Murder" first performance where he can't get out and goes through the window or walks around the flat.

You were in study hall on a Saturday evening? Hmmm ...

I still say it's just a bunch of bunk, 30 years ago these people were "remembering" things that happened 30 years previously. Now these people are 30 years older, or dead, and "memories" aren't always accurate. Merv Griffin said he saw it but I don't believe him. Many people said that they saw Johnny Carson tell Zsa Zsa Gabor "I would if you would remove that damn cat" after she apparently asked if he wanted to pet her @*&$%. Or people claimed that they heard Groucho tell a woman with upteen million kids that he loved his cigar but he takes it out of mouth when in fact it has been proven that this exchange never aired, if it even happened at all.

It's interesting and fun to read people's thoughts and ideas, but I just do not believe that the orange thing ever happened. And the episode where Art Carney goes through the window? I think people are remembering the "Stand-In For Murder" first performance where he can't get out and goes through the window or walks around the flat.
I understand your skepticism, especially with all the errors we've made note of recently. Kenneth Whelan's account of the orange incident seems to be what everyone else has based their story on, but in the same book that he told this story, he incorrectly referred to a Fenwick Babbitt sketch as a Poor Soul sketch and may have sensationalized the story about Reggie and the paper airplane. As Chris pointed out, that Reggie footage was used in an episode of "Gleason: He's the Greatest," and there was no visible stagehand, nor did Gleason make any remark to said stagehand. While it's possible that the Reggie sketch could have been repeated, it looks like we have two strikes against Mr. Whelan at this point.

Another example of sensationalizing things is in Annie McGarry's book, when she writes about Gleason breaking the steak in "The New Bowling Ball." That entire paragraph is full of nonsense. "There was no rehearsal," it says, yet there are pictures from the rehearsal in the same book. Anyway, it goes on to say Gleason broke the prop, a piece flew off the set, and he glared at Audrey, who said "Tonight I'm serving you half a steak." In reality, Gleason broke the prop in two, but no piece flew anywhere, he never glared at Audrey to save the scene and she never said that. All that considered, I do think there is some truth to both the orange and window stories, but they may not have been as amazing as they were made out to be.

There are only five missing Audrey Meadows sketches left. If those turn up and the orange and window scenes are nowhere to be found, then I'm with you...it's just a bunch of bunk. Though I can't say I'd be surprised if it was bunk, seeing as how more than one person claims they saw a clip of the orange scene in the 80s, yet nobody has been able to locate the footage in over a year. Plus, as you mentioned, the Saturday night study hall. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

BTW, found an old thread from here in 2006 regarding the same subject, here is the text...

"It was a "Honeymooners" sketch on the Gleason show, and Gleason exited a scene and ran off to his dressing room to change clothes — which he should not have done. He forgot that the scene had been rewritten and extended. He was supposed to go back in and engage Art/Ed in more dialogue but he forgot, leaving his sidekick sitting at the Kramden dining table, waiting for Ralph to return and play the rest of the dialogue. When Ralph didn't come, Art realized he had to fill — this is live TV, remember — so he walked over, opened the ice box and found there was nothing in it but an orange. He took it, sat down and did two minutes of orange-peeling. A stage manager finally got Gleason back so the scene could resume but as Jackie himself told the story, those two minutes were the funniest two minutes in the entire hour, maybe the entire season. The kinescope is apparently lost but I'm sure it was wonderful. Because Art Carney didn't know how to be anything less."

Did Gleason go to wipe his brow?, did he go to change clothes?, did he forget that the scene was rewritten & extended?

Been doing some more research. Found some sites that talk about this.

From story on Art Carney's death...

http://rense.com/general44/honey.htm

"When Gleason once missed a cue to enter during a live broadcast, Carney looked inside the set refrigerator, pulled out an orange and for almost a full minute peeled it with humorous aplomb. The moment was remembered as a classic comedy ad-lib."

--------------------------------

From Art Carney's book...

http://books.google.com/books?id=dz0-xKo15WEC&pg=PA186&lpg=PA186&dq=carney+norton+orange+peeling&source=bl&ots=mPyy_H_COE&sig=ur2mOqRjU6GpdFDa_hawGT0pHBg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Y_0AUfzrOoqn0AGh4IHoAg&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=carney%20norton%20orange%20peeling&f=false

"He left Art Carney onstage alone.... Carney improvised action for Ed Norton. He looked around, scratched himself, then went to the Kramden refrigerator and peered in. He pulled out an orange, shuffled to the table, and sat down and peeled it."

--------------------------------

From story on TVLand's airing "The Adoption"...

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2000-03-15/features/0003150218_1_honeymooners-jackie-gleason-classic-39

"in one famous instance, Gleason missed his cue to come onstage, and Carney was forced to improvise an entire skit about peeling an orange"

--------------------------------

a person's recollection on another blog...

http://www.findadeath.com/forum/showthread.php?2734-Art-Carney

"Carney on stage by himself decided to raid the Kramdens fridge, and with luck found an orange which he took to the kitchen table and spent the next 2 minutes peeling until Gleason and Meadows returned."

--------------------------------

& from People Magazine archive (NOTE THE DATE 9/23/85)...

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20091779,00.html

"Once, when someone missed an entrance, Carney, alone onstage, went to the fridge, found an orange and peeled it for almost two minutes."

--------------------------------

Regarding this last posting 9/23/85, this is weeks after Showtime airing "Jackie Gleason's Second Honeymoon" & "The Honeymooners: The Lost Episodes Marathon".

I have gone through every Lost Episode again, & triple checked the 10 episodes that aired on that marathon. There is no evidence of anyplace that an edit would have occurred where this clip would have been cut from.

--------------------------------

I went back and read thru all of the posts from this entry & the the part that sticks out the most is...

"What is written in the book about the orange peel scene: Gleason went through the bedroom door, followed by Meadows. According to the script, Audrey was supposed to return with Gleason immediately. According to Eddie Brinkman, the stage manager, Audrey couldn't find Gleason when she went through the bedroom door. Being a little confused and thinking he had a little more time, he went looking for a kleenex to mop his sweating brow."

So, Ralph leaving to the bedroom & Alice following & bringing him back were apparently scripted.

--------------------------------

In 1986 Gleason was inducted into the TV Hall of Fame. Parts of this special are on youtube, but not the Gleason segment. Perhaps it was on this.

Has anyone gone through any additional VHSs/DVDs?
Somebody has the TV Hall of Fame special with Gleason being inducted. That person is selling it on ioffer. According to them, there are no Honeymooners clips on that special.

The wonderful Joyce Randolph replied to my request for late last year.
I asked her to sign 2 photos I sent her & she included a signed headshot photo as well (inc here) & replied to my questions regarding the "orange" & "window" lost scenes. She replied...

"I can't remember these 2 shows. Maybe I wasn't in them. I wasn't in every single show. My memory is getting bad now that I'm 88."

Very sweet of her to reply. Although this doesn't help us narrow down the search for these 2 episodes, it does suggests there is probably another unknown episode from 1954-1955 season for Art climbing through the window, since we believe Trixie was in "Halloween Party For The Boss" 10/30/54 & there are no other known "Lost" episodes from this season & figuring she would have remembered this occurring since she was in the episode.

Keep searching...

I finally came across a trade list I've been looking for. The contact info for the person has changed, but the list appears to be the same. They seem to have everything we're looking for except the Joan Rivers show. Here are the shows of interest:

Time & Again MSNBC - The Honeymooners 1hr
Jackie Gleason's Second Honeymoon - Jackie Hosts with guests Art, Audrey & Joyce 1hr
The Honeymooners 35th Anniversary Special- 11/12/1990 Host Audrey meadows (60min)
The Honeymooners: The Lost Episodes Marathon 9/1/1985 (Showtime) 3hrs
Gleason He's The Greatest Special w/interviews 11/30/1988 3hrs
And Away We Go - TV Special Bio (1950's)
The Great Gleason MPI VIDEO 10/21/1987 (Rare Clips) (95min)
60 Minutes 1984- UNCUT VERSION! TV Land (28 min)
Tony Orlando & Dawn Show- 1974 (1 hr.) (Gleason)
Tony Orlando & Dawn Show- 1975 1hr (Carney)
CBS NEWS NY at 21 Club - 1985 Press Party w/ Jackie & Audrey Interviews
NBC News NY- About the new "Lost Episodes" 1985 release.
Honeymooners Showtime Marathon w/Jackie int. seg.

Assuming this is the same person I'm thinking of, these shows were on their want list several years back (more to keep an eye out for):

Gleason: In His Own Words (TV) Jackie,Audrey,Art 2-14-86
ABC News Nightline: Jackie Gleason 6/24/1987
20/20 Celebrates Jackie Gleason's 60th Birthday ABC 2/26/1981
The Wonderful World of Jackie Gleason- 1964 Special with Art Carney

Here's one of their listings on iOffer with contact info: http://www.ioffer.com/i/the-honeymooners-unreleased-the-adoption-1-8-1966-492536570

Anyone have an iOffer account or want to try contacting them via email?

I know that this thread is old but I did buy the Tony Orlando and Dawn set that has JACKIE Gleason starring and he doesn’t mention anything about the Honeymooners so that episode where he starred in can be crossed out. What also can be crossed out (and I just realized this now so sorry) is the 20/20 celebrating Jackie’s birthday, possibly ABC Nightline episode on the death of Jackie Gleason, Gleason: He’s the Greatest, 60 minutes interview with Jackie Gleason and the Great Gleason. I’m not too sure about Away We Go though. I know that Art Carney hosted a Gleason special in 1960 or so which I have. If that is Away We Go, than I guess you can cross it out.

Crossing things off the list is progress! Hopefully one day we'll get to the bottom of this.

I know that this thread is old but I did buy the Tony Orlando and Dawn set that has JACKIE Gleason starring and he doesn’t mention anything about the Honeymooners so that episode where he starred in can be crossed out. What also can be crossed out (and I just realized this now so sorry) is the 20/20 celebrating Jackie’s birthday, possibly ABC Nightline episode on the death of Jackie Gleason, Gleason: He’s the Greatest, 60 minutes interview with Jackie Gleason and the Great Gleason. I’m not too sure about Away We Go though. I know that Art Carney hosted a Gleason special in 1960 or so which I have. If that is Away We Go, than I guess you can cross it out.

I just got a copy of the Tony Orlando and Dawn Show with Art Carney that was taped off of what is now YTA TV Network. Art Carney doesnt talk about the Honeymooners at all.

As I posted yesterday, I saw what I THINK was the footage from the press conference from CBS2 in NY I think I saw footage from NBC 4 in NY. Nothing was mentioned about the bloopers.

This wasn't part of the script. Wow im surprised they let it go!!

They talk about this lost orange peeling scene in this article (https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-2000-03-15-0003150218-story.html) from 2000 (fourth paragraph down).

I came across this. Could the orange scene and/or the door scene be on here. Honestly, I am 99% percent sure the answer is no. I am not buying this

https://www.ebay.com/itm/115450856241?itmmeta=01HV3A0BCSJ765C8HJGX683CQJ&hash=item1ae1684331:g:J9EAAOSwD55iv2E9&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA4FFAbnfNspYw9SdLq%2FFuoN9FnfmAhyyYZ9To6qBMBbTejvRHIhDAs50iH%2BpMjaOY7Y7xKXDkImNfjGuZRbiss3iztVWu%2FkE80fkWNIwsQMcOr1cdrnnqK%2FV3dCdOaDa9C7rPCNE1U%2BEuU5iJmzBO7bX1vc0DiBeto8S32952w%2FHrfKNzIy3zdm33RVUYX44HayTLFsUljO4RMfwF%2FaTGaREgAT1M%2F7iZ6uYsec1gvRmtrpi5gdGwBuveBgUteULM1dbc0GRs0rNHK5RpIEbTS6W6Ijl%2FtMOHKkWdSdaRAAVa%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR7y2gerYYw

Have no idea. I doubt it. Would need the item to be viewed.

Nope. Not on it.
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6eetdd

Nope. Not on it.
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6eetdd

Thank you. My assumption was correct.

I found two VHS tapes that say Best of The Lost Episodes Volume 1. Interesting that they never had future volumes. Could the orange peeling scene and the window scene be on those two tapes?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/146333326036?_skw=honeymooners+best+of+lost+episodes+vhs&itmmeta=01JNEFBZ8FQC2EKN

https://www.ebay.com/itm/235261251645?_skw=honeymooners+best+of+lost+episodes+vhs&itmmeta=01JNEFBZ8FH4BN4R305F8EERSB&hash=item36c6a9d03d:g:wnUAAOSwohplMc7n&itmprp=enc%3AAQAKAAABAFkggFvd1GGDu0w3yXCmi1feE2KbAbnrrOqTv8WHp4eRsiLF%2FsAULDsbL6NFHAAuAJ%2B1W9KNiw%2B2SUO7TyZUM4Owr2CPvGVtvpJApOG9JMyAAAIOjh7W3q0z%2FpEvR7f%2BthcQu2At73C%2Bxi8AHcvxDlmrSJ%2FzDcuTcslOsEzW6rPDqiMVRiXSmRsqBvqPRhiwN8fgJ7qfknyPnT%2BhCj1RP4kWoixVU%2FmP7kKSyd37ygEb0jwlKMe4OJDK%2Fx5xkMOdr1mKlpB6pnCghEc7fXItxppZlScva1nOKCAgjb8ugAMZgZTGm%2BUf2rUGYV7YDq0qSGqRxjLL8TUOnInsisMQiEs%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR7L0r8-rZQ

I found two VHS tapes that say Best of The Lost Episodes Volume 1. Interesting that they never had future volumes. Could the orange peeling scene and the window scene be on those two tapes?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/146333326036?_skw=honeymooners+best+of+lost+episodes+vhs&itmmeta=01JNEFBZ8FQC2EKN

https://www.ebay.com/itm/235261251645?_skw=honeymooners+best+of+lost+episodes+vhs&itmmeta=01JNEFBZ8FH4BN4R305F8EERSB&hash=item36c6a9d03d:g:wnUAAOSwohplMc7n&itmprp=enc%3AAQAKAAABAFkggFvd1GGDu0w3yXCmi1feE2KbAbnrrOqTv8WHp4eRsiLF%2FsAULDsbL6NFHAAuAJ%2B1W9KNiw%2B2SUO7TyZUM4Owr2CPvGVtvpJApOG9JMyAAAIOjh7W3q0z%2FpEvR7f%2BthcQu2At73C%2Bxi8AHcvxDlmrSJ%2FzDcuTcslOsEzW6rPDqiMVRiXSmRsqBvqPRhiwN8fgJ7qfknyPnT%2BhCj1RP4kWoixVU%2FmP7kKSyd37ygEb0jwlKMe4OJDK%2Fx5xkMOdr1mKlpB6pnCghEc7fXItxppZlScva1nOKCAgjb8ugAMZgZTGm%2BUf2rUGYV7YDq0qSGqRxjLL8TUOnInsisMQiEs%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR7L0r8-rZQ

Got told that they aren’t on the tapes. I just bought off of eBay a combo tape that includes the above & Wit & Wisodm of Ed Norton. Will it be on there?

Got told that they aren’t on the tapes. I just bought off of eBay a combo tape that includes the above & Wit & Wisodm of Ed Norton. Will it be on there?

Got the rare combo tape and it’s not on there. However at the end, MPI asks if you would like more information on upcoming HONEYMOON releases, bring that this was compiled in the mid 80s, you have to write to them. Not to sure if they are still at that address on the tape. Yes the graphic did say Honeymoon. Even in the mid 80s, MPI did not care.

I think "Norton peeling the orange" and "Norton entering through the window" probably did happen. Maybe the tapes for those shows were put aside, so that they would not be lost, and in putting them aside, away from the normal stacks, the result was that they ended up being lost? Again, being special shows, maybe they ended up misplaced, or maybe borrowed and never returned. Here's hoping they turn up one day. If they do, it'll probably be by accident. If they still exist, they're probably in some old producer's attic gathering dust, or maybe in a kinescope archive mislabeled or something.

I still think it was either:

1) A fish story that got better every time Gleason told it, much like Mel Blanc's retconning of the origins of Porky Pig's voice-- he didn't visit pig farms and incorporate a stutter by learning to imitate them, he simply took over for the guy who provided the original voice, adding his own spin to it.

2) Something that occurred during one of their non-televised, live performances. Pretty much everything "Honeymooners" has surfaced save for maybe 2 short, live repeated sketches and The Incredible World.. which we know IS in the vault via direct contact, vis-à-vis the phone calls, the family just won't release it.

As it stands, only a couple of the color variety shows which don't feature Honeymooners material haven't been released or "salvaged" as the tapes are reportedly in such bad shape they can't be properly transferred.

I still think of that image in the dvd booklet that shows 2 shelves of mildewed-looking tape cases. So much for the careful, climate-controlled storage, eh?

But, lore or not, just maybe one of these days.. One of these days the orange peeling mystery (and the Incredible World..) will be resolved.

Norton peeling the orange could have been "The Dorsey Brothers Show" from May 23, 1953. Act 1 ends abruptly, with Gleason headed to the bedroom door, and, as seen in Act 2, the refrigerator was filled with fruit. Also, what's on the DVD comes out to 35 minutes, so there would have been time for it.

I don't know why MPI would edit the ending to Act 1. Maybe it decomposed? The rest of the acts have weird dissolves too. It would be nice to see this Jackie Gleason Show complete, to see what was cut out, with the intros and exits.

Whoever transferred the episode might have thought it was a commercial or something and cut it off. Regardless, maybe MPI should be contacted about this episode. They promised the lost episode DVD set would be complete, and here there is a noticeable edit in one of the episodes!

Norton peeling the orange could have been "The Dorsey Brothers Show" from May 23, 1953. Act 1 ends abruptly, with Gleason headed to the bedroom door, and, as seen in Act 2, the refrigerator was filled with fruit. Also, what's on the DVD comes out to 35 minutes, so there would have been time for it.

I don't know why MPI would edit the ending to Act 1. Maybe it decomposed? The rest of the acts have weird dissolves too. It would be nice to see this Jackie Gleason Show complete, to see what was cut out, with the intros and exits.

Whoever transferred the episode might have thought it was a commercial or something and cut it off. Regardless, maybe MPI should be contacted about this episode. They promised the lost episode DVD set would be complete, and here there is a noticeable edit in one of the episodes!

Or maybe the footage (if the orange peeling happened during that episode and it may have), was damaged. Good luck with contacting MPI. I wouldn’t hold my breath for waiting a response.

Norton peeling the orange could have been "The Dorsey Brothers Show" from May 23, 1953. Act 1 ends abruptly, with Gleason headed to the bedroom door, and, as seen in Act 2, the refrigerator was filled with fruit. Also, what's on the DVD comes out to 35 minutes, so there would have been time for it.

I don't know why MPI would edit the ending to Act 1. Maybe it decomposed? The rest of the acts have weird dissolves too. It would be nice to see this Jackie Gleason Show complete, to see what was cut out, with the intros and exits.

Whoever transferred the episode might have thought it was a commercial or something and cut it off. Regardless, maybe MPI should be contacted about this episode. They promised the lost episode DVD set would be complete, and here there is a noticeable edit in one of the episodes!

Interesting theory and, yes, the edits are noticeable and a bit annoying for a supposed "complete" collection.

But at least they're not as bad as what got broadcast during the 80's. You know, the sketches cut to fit about 3 into half-hour slots? And one that was zoomed to one corner and off-center so much to cover a running scratch on one side of the screen that one rarely ever saw faces in the frame! At least that one was left pretty much alone on the MPI set, scratch and all.

I remember the news blips about Gleason handing over those films to be transferred and released, and seeing techs watching monologues and other bits-- then in the next few shots of the news piece they were, of course, making edits!

We only get to see bits and pieces of full shows or the odd, complete episode via compilation specials or bootleg copies. Frus-tra-ting!