I was reading around on some different sites and on You Tube and people are saying that Daphne controlled Niles after they got married. They said she turned into another Maris or Mel. I disagree with that. Yes, Daphne changed after she and Niles got together, but I never felt she was controlling. That's what I loved about their relationship, that they were equals and made decisions together. I never felt Daphne made Niles do things he didn't want to do. She never made him wait on her hand and foot or treat him like a slave like Maris did.
Daphne became stronger and wasn't a pushover anymore. Niles wasn't a doormat anymore either. He stood up to Mel for Daphne and grew a backbone, something he never had with Maris. I don't understand why people think that Daphne controlled Niles. I saw two people in love and happy and who accepted each other for who they were. I felt they showed what a real marriage should be like, that is why I liked them so much as a couple.
Daphne did things that Niles wanted to do like go to the opera or the symphony and Niles did things that Daphne wanted to do like go to concerts and things. Niles fought for Daphne and Daphne fought for Niles. It was a two way street. Even when they had a fight, they found a way to work it out and they became stronger because of it.
Maybe I am seeing things because I love them so much but then again, maybe not.
Daphne was someone that Niles needed in his life. Even Frasier and Martin knew that Daphne was good for Niles. They knew each other so well because they had been friends before they ever became a couple.
Anyway, I am ranting on and on. Let me know how you feel. I could go on all day! :lol: :eek:

I guess no one has an opinion. :(

I guess no one has an opinion. :(

Well, if you ask me...

I think she was somewhat controlling.
What about the episode where Daphne investigated one of Niles' patients when she found out that this patient had a crush on him. Niles sure took charge in that episode.

I'm still on season six. Working my way through all of them again.
The beginning of season six was like a hump to get over. I don't like the episodes of depression (from Frasier loosing his job).

Well, if you ask me...

I think she was somewhat controlling.
What about the episode where Daphne investigated one of Niles' patients when she found out that this patient had a crush on him. Niles sure took charge in that episode.

Niles and Daphne weren't even married at that time, and I believe Daphne had a good reason for being a bit nervous over the patient who had a crush on Niles. It was wrong for her to go through patient files but I can still understand why she did it. I think that episode was a good example of how no matter what obstacles or struggles they faced, they could get through them together because they loved each other. They struggled so hard to be together, they went through a lot to get where they were. Daphne felt she was always competing with Maris and Mel, because they were both so dominating. I never felt Daphne was at all like Maris or Mel.

I really want to know how more people feel about this. Pat already told me how he felt. Please let me know your opinion. I just don't see how people could feel that Daphne was like Maris or Mel. I am offended. :(

Here I am in Season 10 now. It is ep Bristle While You Work (Part 1) where Niles is about to go have his heart checked out. He hasn't told Daphne that he thinks he may be having heart failure...

Niles: [voice over of thoughts] I can't believe this is happening.
After all those misspent years of frustration and yearning,
I finally find the fulfillment of my dreams only to have it
snatched away. Look at her. She's so beautiful, so perfect.
She deserves nothing but happiness. I hope, when I'm gone,
she's able to make a life with someone else. After a suitable
period of mourning, of course.

He collects his things and reaches for the door.

Daphne: Niles?
Niles: [emotionally] Yes, my love?
Daphne: [firmly] WHEN are you going to change the paper in the bottom
of the bird cage, hmm? I've asked you three times already.
Niles: Soon as I get back.

She heads off.

Niles: [v.o.] Maybe when I'm gone, Her Majesty can muck out her own
birdcage.

Here I am in Season 10 now. It is ep Bristle While You Work (Part 1) where Niles is about to go have his heart checked out. He hasn't told Daphne that he thinks he may be having heart failure...

Niles: [voice over of thoughts] I can't believe this is happening.
After all those misspent years of frustration and yearning,
I finally find the fulfillment of my dreams only to have it
snatched away. Look at her. She's so beautiful, so perfect.
She deserves nothing but happiness. I hope, when I'm gone,
she's able to make a life with someone else. After a suitable
period of mourning, of course.

He collects his things and reaches for the door.

Daphne: Niles?
Niles: [emotionally] Yes, my love?
Daphne: [firmly] WHEN are you going to change the paper in the bottom
of the bird cage, hmm? I've asked you three times already.
Niles: Soon as I get back.

She heads off.

Niles: [v.o.] Maybe when I'm gone, Her Majesty can muck out her own
birdcage.

What is wrong with her asking him to clean out the birdcage?

Nothing is wrong with it, it's just the first time in the series that I've seen her talk to him that way... as if he's being scolded.

Well, I'm gonna have to pay more attention to them after they were married. I know Hallmark is showing them now. I do know Daphne was "firm" with Martin about his theraphy. She was never shy about stating her opinions, but I don't think I would call her controlling. Maris was controlling, and I would say Mel (ugh) was manipulative.

I don't think anyone is as horrible as Mel and to even think that Daphne turned into Mel or Maris makes me shudder. She did change after they got married but so did he. I have to admit that the episode (yes before they were married) where she went to see what Heather Murphy looked like and read her files was a little disturbing becuase it seemed to be so out of character for her, but I love how he reasurred her that she was the only woman he was in love with. I just watched those episodes revolving around Niles' heart attack and I don't remember that exchange in "Bristle While You Work." But then again the most promient of those episodes is the one right before "Rooms With a View" and "Rooms" itself.

I agree that Maris was controlling and Mel was munipulative and I don't think that Niles would have been able to handle it had Daphne become like them. And actually that would have been a big turn off for me as well as a big letdown; waiting for 7 seasons for them to get together and then have her end up like the two women he was married to before.

Daphne has always been assertive; that was pretty apparant when she would talk to Frasier and Martin, so I think it's only natural for her to be that way a little bit with Niles. But he was pretty assertive with her when he found out that she had gone to visit Heather Murphy.

I'll have to watch some of the later episodes myself to see how they were as a married couple because now I'm a bit curious.

I don't think anyone is as horrible as Mel and to even think that Daphne turned into Mel or Maris makes me shudder. She did change after they got married but so did he. I have to admit that the episode (yes before they were married) where she went to see what Heather Murphy looked like and read her files was a little disturbing becuase it seemed to be so out of character for her, but I love how he reasurred her that she was the only woman he was in love with. I just watched those episodes revolving around Niles' heart attack and I don't remember that exchange in "Bristle While You Work." But then again the most promient of those episodes is the one right before "Rooms With a View" and "Rooms" itself.

I agree that Maris was controlling and Mel was munipulative and I don't think that Niles would have been able to handle it had Daphne become like them. And actually that would have been a big turn off for me as well as a big letdown; waiting for 7 seasons for them to get together and then have her end up like the two women he was married to before.

Daphne has always been assertive; that was pretty apparant when she would talk to Frasier and Martin, so I think it's only natural for her to be that way a little bit with Niles. But he was pretty assertive with her when he found out that she had gone to visit Heather Murphy.


I'll have to watch some of the later episodes myself to see how they were as a married couple because now I'm a bit curious.

Here is the opinion of one person-"used to adore daphne's character up to season 8 when she became so annoying and unlike her... Before she was funny, happy, free spirit and then the writers made her evil, fussy, demanding and just not herself..."

Here is another persons response to that-"Totally agreed with you there. What once was a ditzy and funny English character, became an annoying woman who seemed to be exactly like every other female sitcom character. Rewatching seasons 1-8 and then 8 onwards, is like watching two totally different characters. Accent, fashion sense, mannerisms... they didn't even subtly change her. Would have been the equivalent of the producers switching actresses."

Here is what I said-"I disagree with this. Jane Leeves said in an interview that once Niles and Daphne got together they both changed. Their love for one another changed them. Niles wasn't as stuck up and neurotic. He was less wimpy as well. Daphne was tougher and stood up for herself more. A lot of people didn't like her new personality but I embraced it. It was nice to see her as a stronger person and not afraid to stand up for herself. She was still sweet and funny but not a pushover anymore."

This is what they said to me-"I could easily see the attitude change, it's just they gradually changed both those characters already, over the middle seasons. Once it came to the season where she finally started seeing how he felt, it was like they went from gradual to full speed. If they'd not drastically changed her fashion sense and accent I guess it would have felt like a smoother transition To me, in the end, she was just a friendlier version of Mel and Maris. And that's saying something!"

That last line really upset me, how could they even compare Daphne to the two wenches Maris and Mel? Daphne was nothing like them not even a friendlier version of them! Niles wouldn't have fallen in love and married her if she as anything like them. That is why I liked Daphne so much, she was the complete opposite of Maris and Mel. Daphne always had a bit of an edge, it just came out more when she became Niles' wife. Daphne's accent didn't really change either, her clothes did but I loved that! I hate to go on and on about this, it just really upsets me. :mad:

I've been pondering this over and over - great post by-the-way

I have just finished rewatching season 10 and if I were to give Daphne a report card on her compasion in her relationship for the first year of marriage...

Considering this is her and Niles' first year of marriage and they are still newly weds...

I would have to consider the following:
Daphne went far out of her way to help her husband and brother learn how to ride bikes - when she could have easily have made fun of them (Faternal Schwinns), she has joined Niles in yoga sessions (Kenny On The Couch), she showed great passion when Niles had open-heart surgery (Bristle While You Work-Rooms With A View-Don't Go Breaking My Heart), and she supported Niles, letting him have his theropy sessions at home when his office was being remodeled (The Harrassed).
And not to mention the "Nurse Naughty" outfit she wore for him when he had recovered his heart surgery.

She was not bossy, crude, or any other words that may be used to describe the way Mel or Meris treated Niles.

For season 10, Daphne gets an A+ in my book.

I still cringe when I think of Daphne being like Maris or Mel. I don't like Maris at all but I believe that she does love Niles (or did) even somewhat. But Mel is a completely different story. I absolutlely LOATHE her and to think that Daphne is anything like her is just insane. I don't think she changed THAT much during the series. And Pat is right about the wonderful things taht Daphne and Niles did for each other after they got married. Even before. I mean how many men would send their fiance's on a trip to Hawaii with her mother-in-law (a trip meant for Niles and Daphne) and then sneak over to England to find her father; even though it did cause a lot of friction. I felt a little sorry for him having to endure such misery but that's definitely love.

I still cringe when I think of Daphne being like Maris or Mel. I don't like Maris at all but I believe that she does love Niles (or did) even somewhat. But Mel is a completely different story. I absolutlely LOATHE her and to think that Daphne is anything like her is just insane. I don't think she changed THAT much during the series. And Pat is right about the wonderful things taht Daphne and Niles did for each other after they got married. Even before. I mean how many men would send their fiance's on a trip to Hawaii with her mother-in-law (a trip meant for Niles and Daphne) and then sneak over to England to find her father; even though it did cause a lot of friction. I felt a little sorry for him having to endure such misery but that's definitely love.

Daphne said it best in Moons Over Seattle-"You would do anything, even put up with my insane family to make me happy. Because you traveled halfway around the world to make my dreams come true, even the impossible ones. Because I can't spend one more second not being your wife Niles Crane because I adore you." :)

Jane was amazing in that scene. I cry every time I watch it. To see the tears in both their eyes was just too much. A phenomenal scene. They are what true love is about. :love:

Daphne said it best in Moons Over Seattle-"You would do anything, even put up with my insane family to make me happy. Because you traveled halfway around the world to make my dreams come true, even the impossible ones. Because I can't spend one more second not being your wife Niles Crane because I adore you." :)

Jane was amazing in that scene. I cry every time I watch it. To see the tears in both their eyes was just too much. A phenomenal scene. They are what true love is about. :love:

That is a beautiful scene and I just love when Niles is so emotional hearing her heartfelt words. DHP and Jane were wonderful in that episode.

I agree with much of what's been said here. However, and I may be in the minority with this opinion-- it seems like every time I post on this site I'm in the minority with my opinion :lol: -- But I do think the difference we perceive in Daphne after they're married is more due to Niles than it is Daphne herself. Let me explain.

Niles is the kind of guy who loves to love his woman. He does not do well when he's alone (remember the bird and the dog?), and when he's in a relationship his woman is the center of it. All he wants to do is love her, make her happy, and do everything he can to take good care of her. And that was still true even as those other two women took advantage of this characteristic of his. Geez, he even continued to help Maris (sort of) even well after their divorce and after all she'd put him through. I personally don't think that makes him spineless or wimpy or a doormat or any of those things. I think that makes him an endearing sweetheart :biglove: and I think that very trait of his is why so many fans (myself included) are completely in love with the character and want nothing but happiness for him.

But I do think that trait of his could be why some people might feel that Daphne seemed controlling. (I completely disagree with that, by the way). I think that his love for Daphne was deep, passionate and very different from the other two, and that intensified that personality trait of his even more, beginning really even before they were married. And after they were married, they became a very normal, in love, married couple who give and take in an equal relationship. That whole birdcage scene actually makes me happy because both her words to him and his thoughts about mucking out her own birdcage are a sign that he's finally in a normal, and yes, loving relationship. The entire next episode (Rooms with a View) very clearly shows her commitment and intense love for him as well. I feel really sorry for anyone who watched both of those episodes and only got out of it that Daphne was controlling. :confused: I think that if Daphne had been anything like the other two women and decided to manipulate and take advantage of him as they did, it would be easy to see because clearly Niles would have been destroyed by his own depth of passion for her in the end.

One more thing-- sorry to go on-- I tend to think the people who wrote those comments and gave those examples on that other site maybe have never been married-- because Niles and Daphne have just about as normal and even idyllic kind of marriage as they'll ever see.

I agree with much of what's been said here. However, and I may be in the minority with this opinion-- it seems like every time I post on this site I'm in the minority with my opinion :lol: -- But I do think the difference we perceive in Daphne after they're married is more due to Niles than it is Daphne herself. Let me explain.

Niles is the kind of guy who loves to love his woman. He does not do well when he's alone (remember the bird and the dog?), and when he's in a relationship his woman is the center of it. All he wants to do is love her, make her happy, and do everything he can to take good care of her. And that was still true even as those other two women took advantage of this characteristic of his. Geez, he even continued to help Maris (sort of) even well after their divorce and after all she'd put him through. I personally don't think that makes him spineless or wimpy or a doormat or any of those things. I think that makes him an endearing sweetheart :biglove: and I think that very trait of his is why so many fans (myself included) are completely in love with the character and want nothing but happiness for him.

But I do think that trait of his could be why some people might feel that Daphne seemed controlling. (I completely disagree with that, by the way). I think that his love for Daphne was deep, passionate and very different from the other two, and that intensified that personality trait of his even more, beginning really even before they were married. And after they were married, they became a very normal, in love, married couple who give and take in an equal relationship. That whole birdcage scene actually makes me happy because both her words to him and his thoughts about mucking out her own birdcage are a sign that he's finally in a normal, and yes, loving relationship. The entire next episode (Rooms with a View) very clearly shows her commitment and intense love for him as well. I feel really sorry for anyone who watched both of those episodes and only got out of it that Daphne was controlling. :confused: I think that if Daphne had been anything like the other two women and decided to manipulate and take advantage of him as they did, it would be easy to see because clearly Niles would have been destroyed by his own depth of passion for her in the end.

One more thing-- sorry to go on-- I tend to think the people who wrote those comments and gave those examples on that other site maybe have never been married-- because Niles and Daphne have just about as normal and even idyllic kind of marriage as they'll ever see.

Thank you for this! This is what I have been trying to say all this time. The reason I love Niles and Daphne is because of the kind of love they shared and the type of marriage they had. I mean they had a normal, real, loving, passionate marriage. They were just amazing together. :loveya:
I don't see why some people say Daphne changed so much, she really didn't. I mean a little, yes but not drastically like people are saying. Niles wouldn't have loved her the way he did if she had and of course Frasier and Martin would have certainly said something.
Daphne was in NO WAY like Maris or Mel by any means. That is an insult to Niles and Daphne's whole relationship. :rolleyes:
How many men are like Niles? Not many. He loved Daphne from the moment he laid eyes on her and it took him 6 years to tell her and once he did he treated her like a queen. That is how she fell in love with him because of the type of man he was. She knew he had a good heart. ;) There should be more men like him in the world. Daphne was one lucky girl and Niles was one lucky guy to land the woman of his dreams! :D

Maris Returns: Season 11 -
Daphne was moody - but that was due to her pregnancy mood swings. And she had good reason for being mad at Niles for lying about having lunch with Maris.

Maris Returns: Season 11 -
Daphne was moody - but that was due to her pregnancy mood swings. And she had good reason for being mad at Niles for lying about having lunch with Maris.

I agree and that was the only episode really she was that bad, from then on she was as close to normal as she could be being pregnant.
After that though, she stood by Niles and then in the end Niles told Maris off. I was so proud of him then! :D

I agree with much of what's been said here. However, and I may be in the minority with this opinion-- it seems like every time I post on this site I'm in the minority with my opinion :lol: -- But I do think the difference we perceive in Daphne after they're married is more due to Niles than it is Daphne herself. Let me explain.

Niles is the kind of guy who loves to love his woman. He does not do well when he's alone (remember the bird and the dog?), and when he's in a relationship his woman is the center of it. All he wants to do is love her, make her happy, and do everything he can to take good care of her. And that was still true even as those other two women took advantage of this characteristic of his. Geez, he even continued to help Maris (sort of) even well after their divorce and after all she'd put him through. I personally don't think that makes him spineless or wimpy or a doormat or any of those things. I think that makes him an endearing sweetheart :biglove: and I think that very trait of his is why so many fans (myself included) are completely in love with the character and want nothing but happiness for him.

But I do think that trait of his could be why some people might feel that Daphne seemed controlling. (I completely disagree with that, by the way). I think that his love for Daphne was deep, passionate and very different from the other two, and that intensified that personality trait of his even more, beginning really even before they were married. And after they were married, they became a very normal, in love, married couple who give and take in an equal relationship. That whole birdcage scene actually makes me happy because both her words to him and his thoughts about mucking out her own birdcage are a sign that he's finally in a normal, and yes, loving relationship. The entire next episode (Rooms with a View) very clearly shows her commitment and intense love for him as well. I feel really sorry for anyone who watched both of those episodes and only got out of it that Daphne was controlling. :confused: I think that if Daphne had been anything like the other two women and decided to manipulate and take advantage of him as they did, it would be easy to see because clearly Niles would have been destroyed by his own depth of passion for her in the end.

One more thing-- sorry to go on-- I tend to think the people who wrote those comments and gave those examples on that other site maybe have never been married-- because Niles and Daphne have just about as normal and even idyllic kind of marriage as they'll ever see.

I love this! Beautifully stated and I enjoyed reading your thoughts! I love that you mentioned Rooms because it really does show their deep love for one another; Daphne being so worried about him and trying to be strong. I know I could never be that strong if, God forbid, something like that happened to my husband. I don't think Daphne was controlling at all, as I've mentioned in earlier posts. That would have been horrible to have that entire series build up to them getting together and have the marriage turn out to be like his previous marriages. I also agree with your statement that people who thought she was controlling may have been single. I'm sure that never-married people would view Niles/Daphne's relationship differently than people who have been married.

Thank you for this! This is what I have been trying to say all this time. The reason I love Niles and Daphne is because of the kind of love they shared and the type of marriage they had. I mean they had a normal, real, loving, passionate marriage. They were just amazing together. :loveya:
I don't see why some people say Daphne changed so much, she really didn't. I mean a little, yes but not drastically like people are saying. Niles wouldn't have loved her the way he did if she had and of course Frasier and Martin would have certainly said something.
Daphne was in NO WAY like Maris or Mel by any means. That is an insult to Niles and Daphne's whole relationship. :rolleyes:
How many men are like Niles? Not many. He loved Daphne from the moment he laid eyes on her and it took him 6 years to tell her and once he did he treated her like a queen. That is how she fell in love with him because of the type of man he was. She knew he had a good heart. ;) There should be more men like him in the world. Daphne was one lucky girl and Niles was one lucky guy to land the woman of his dreams! :D

I couldn't figure out how to post a reply to both your comment and bigbangbaby's (love that screen name by the way!:) ), so I hope this is okay. I agree a thousand percent that to compare Daphne to Mel or Maris is a complete insult;not to mention a horrible thought!

I like to think that my husband is like Niles in a way. We were in a restaurant once and he started wiping the chair off before he sat down. Loved it!

I don't see why some people say Daphne changed so much, she really didn't. I mean a little, yes but not drastically like people are saying.
Actually he's the one who changed drastically, don't you think? Niles from seasons 1 and 2 is virtually nothing like Niles after he got together with Daphne. And it was a good change, too. He became so much more relaxed, happier. Being with Daphne brought out the best in him and he fully embraced it and allowed himself to be really happy in his relationship and in the rest of his life. I mean, remember Island Niles? :lol: That is something he would have never ever done before. And I love the scene in The First Temptation of Daphne when he says "Because this time it's different. Our love is different. It's not based on someone's expectations...or anything I'm supposed to be..." That right there says it all. Obviously Daphne has given him the love, encouragement, acceptance and validation to just be himself, and that seems to have made a new man out of him. :) Another scene I love is from Proxy Prexy when he and Daphne are teasing Roz after they had just gotten their massages. Everything about that scene shows he's a whole different person than he used to be. You can tell that he's truly happy. Remember he has said in previous episodes that Maris never let him cook for her? Well in that scene we can see that he apparently has become the one who does the cooking in this relationship, and while it seems to be such a small thing, he does seem to revel in it. Plus, have we ever seen him crack up laughing like he does in that scene from Proxy Prexy? Or let loose really at all?

And the beauty of it is that the writers and DHP manage to make it happen so gradually over the seasons. I absolutely love watching that change happen in him. It came slowly over time, so that by the time he was ready to be with Daphne and receive her love, he was also ready to give her the best of himself.

Sorry to be so sappy. I'm in love with Niles. :lol:

Actually he's the one who changed drastically, don't you think? Niles from seasons 1 and 2 is virtually nothing like Niles after he got together with Daphne. And it was a good change, too. He became so much more relaxed, happier. Being with Daphne brought out the best in him and he fully embraced it and allowed himself to be really happy in his relationship and in the rest of his life. I mean, remember Island Niles? :lol: That is something he would have never ever done before. And I love the scene in The First Temptation of Daphne when he says "Because this time it's different. Our love is different. It's not based on someone's expectations...or anything I'm supposed to be..." That right there says it all. Obviously Daphne has given him the love, encouragement, acceptance and validation to just be himself, and that seems to have made a new man out of him. :) Another scene I love is from Proxy Prexy when he and Daphne are teasing Roz after they had just gotten their massages. Everything about that scene shows he's a whole different person than he used to be. You can tell that he's truly happy. Remember he has said in previous episodes that Maris never let him cook for her? Well in that scene we can see that he apparently has become the one who does the cooking in this relationship, and while it seems to be such a small thing, he does seem to revel in it. Plus, have we ever seen him crack up laughing like he does in that scene from Proxy Prexy? Or let loose really at all?

And the beauty of it is that the writers and DHP manage to make it happen so gradually over the seasons. I absolutely love watching that change happen in him. It came slowly over time, so that by the time he was ready to be with Daphne and receive her love, he was also ready to give her the best of himself.

Sorry to be so sappy. I'm in love with Niles. :lol:

Great post by the way! I agree with and love everything you said here. Niles was a wonderful and amazing character and DHP played him to perfection. ;)
You know what they say that the love of a great woman changes a man and that is definitely what happened with Niles. I don't really know what else to say, you really hit the nail on the head with this post. The show wouldn't have been the same without the Niles/Daphne romance. Of course it wouldn't have been the same without Jane and DHP, they were Daphne and Niles. Nobody else could have played those parts and made them work the way they did. Their chemistry was spectacular. Thank God for small miracles. :D

I don't like what this person said at all. They were responding to a comment of mine on You Tube about the episode Don't Go Breaking My Heart. Maybe people are seeing something we aren't?:confused:

Here is their post:
"I just didn't like how they made Daph such a bitch after they got together. Perhaps the writers were trying to make the point she was an equal to them now, but shyte, they didn't have to make her so often the harpy bitch. I think that it was turned people off. Something changed in the writing of the character, but people thinking how they do, blame the actual fictitious character & the actress instead of the writers & show format. When she wasn't made the bitch, they were sweet2gether."

I don't like what this person said at all. They were responding to a comment of mine on You Tube about the episode Don't Go Breaking My Heart. Maybe people are seeing something we aren't?:confused:

Here is their post:
"I just didn't like how they made Daph such a bitch after they got together. Perhaps the writers were trying to make the point she was an equal to them now, but shyte, they didn't have to make her so often the harpy bitch. I think that it was turned people off. Something changed in the writing of the character, but people thinking how they do, blame the actual fictitious character & the actress instead of the writers & show format. When she wasn't made the bitch, they were sweet2gether."
I have no idea what this person is talking about. I can honestly say I can't think of a single time anytime in the entire series when I thought Daphne was acting as bad as all that. Maybe they haven't seen very many episodes? Or maybe they are one of those posters who likes to post things just to rile people up. :lol: If it really bugs you maybe you could ask why she says that. She did say she saw times when they were "sweet2gether" :rolleyes: so maybe you could ask her to give some examples of when she thought she was acting "harpy" and when they were "sweet2gether" so you can see if this person has a point to be taken or has no point and should be ignored (honestly, that's my gut feeling). :crazy: You probably won't change their mind but it might make for an interesting conversation and make it so you can more easily ignore them now that you know they don't know. ;)

I don't like what this person said at all. They were responding to a comment of mine on You Tube about the episode Don't Go Breaking My Heart. Maybe people are seeing something we aren't?:confused:

Here is their post:
"I just didn't like how they made Daph such a bitch after they got together. Perhaps the writers were trying to make the point she was an equal to them now, but shyte, they didn't have to make her so often the harpy bitch. I think that it was turned people off. Something changed in the writing of the character, but people thinking how they do, blame the actual fictitious character & the actress instead of the writers & show format. When she wasn't made the bitch, they were sweet2gether."

Just because Daphne was the type of person who spoke her mind a lot doesn't' make her a bitch! I mean like I said several times before if she had really been horrible, Niles wouldn't have still been so in love with her. I think after Maris and Mel he could certainly read the signs of someone who would potentially treat him badly!

Coming to the final episode of Frasier and thinking of this post season after season after season as I rewatch the show, I have notice Daphne upset and snooty on a few occasions...

"Maris Returns" - Daphne was moody - but that was due to her pregnancy mood swings. And she had good reason for being mad at Niles for lying about having lunch with Maris.

"Murdur Most Maris" Daphne was ticked at Frasier when he made a Fraudian slip stating to the press that Daphne and Niles should be "executed". This brought more press attention with the possibility of Niles going to jail.

Moody in "Fraudian Sleep" - Daphne showed conserns of her pregnancy figure and thought Niles might leave her for someone thinner - prettier.

If Daphne would have been forgiving, loving and understanding during these episodes, she would have come across uncaring, numb, and somewhat unintelligent.

Of course she didn't carry the innocence she had in the first season. I think it is impossible for a character not to grow and change within 11 years of episodes. Now being part of the Crane family, her changes were 100% right on. In the episodes after marrying Niles, she stepped up to the plate and showed some emotion especially when it came to her husband. I can see how people would say those things, but I think they couldn't be more wrong. They are remembering her moods, but not why she was upset.

Imagine Daphne from the first several episodes with her cheery mood having that same cheery mood when her husband was facing jail time.
WIERD!!!! VERY VERY WIERD!!!!

I am no longer on the fence with this. I think that some people remember her moods more than the situations is because she is a great actress and played them very well.

A++ in being a great wife. :wave:

^^^ print ads! That's cool. You have a lot of good pictures. Thanks for sharing them! :)

^^^ print ads! That's cool. You have a lot of good pictures. Thanks for sharing them! :)

Yes, I just love those print ad pictures. They are just beautiful. Whoever thought of those was really creative. :)

This might be a bit off topic but I am SO glad they didn't go the route of having Niles be attracted to another woman-even for an episode (although I have to admit that I did write a fan fic about that subject, but mine took place during the unrequited years), because he pined for her for so long that it would have been completely out of character for him to go that route. Daphne was a great wife because she was willing to do anything and everything for her husband and family.

This might be a bit off topic but I am SO glad they didn't go the route of having Niles be attracted to another woman-even for an episode
Oh my gosh, me too. It makes me upset just to think about it. That would have been so wrong. It was already upsetting enough that he was beginning to try to put Daphne behind him after she got engaged... and upsetting to think that they came within hours of missing each other altogether. I wouldn't have handled that very well, even for one episode. :lol:

Oh my gosh, me too. It makes me upset just to think about it. That would have been so wrong. It was already upsetting enough that he was beginning to try to put Daphne behind him after she got engaged... and upsetting to think that they came within hours of missing each other altogether. I wouldn't have handled that very well, even for one episode. :lol:

They do that a lot on the soaps.. spend forever getting a couple together and then break them up or have them not get along once they finally get married. It's so irritating. But since the writers were already planning on getting Niles and Daphne together I guess they didn't' want their hard work to go to waste! And like I said, I did write a fan fic where Niles dates another woman but it takes place when he's still infatuated with Daphne and she has no idea that he loves her-and I probably don't need to say how it ends!

I put this in the other topic but maybe I should have put it here. I'll put it in both. :lol:
Niles is the kind of guy who loves to love his woman. He does not do well when he's alone (remember the bird and the dog?), and when he's in a relationship his woman is the center of it. All he wants to do is love her, make her happy, and do everything he can to take good care of her. And that was still true even as those other two women took advantage of this characteristic of his. Geez, he even continued to help Maris (sort of) even well after their divorce and after all she'd put him through. I personally don't think that makes him spineless or wimpy or a doormat or any of those things. I think that makes him an endearing sweetheart :biglove: and I think that very trait of his is why so many fans (myself included) are completely in love with the character and want nothing but happiness for him.

But I do think that trait of his could be why some people might feel that Daphne seemed controlling. (I completely disagree with that, by the way). I think that his love for Daphne was deep, passionate and very different from the other two, and that intensified that personality trait of his even more, beginning really even before they were married. And after they were married, they became a very normal, in love, married couple who give and take in an equal relationship. That whole birdcage scene actually makes me happy because both her words to him and his thoughts about mucking out her own birdcage are a sign that he's finally in a normal, and yes, loving relationship. The entire next episode (Rooms with a View) very clearly shows her commitment and intense love for him as well. I feel really sorry for anyone who watched both of those episodes and only got out of it that Daphne was controlling. I think that if Daphne had been anything like the other two women and decided to manipulate and take advantage of him as they did, it would be easy to see because clearly Niles would have been destroyed by his own depth of passion for her in the end.
I just love the quote below and I think it describes Niles perfectly and illustrates what I was trying to say above. No matter what physical shortcomings some may think he has, or characteristics he may have that don't seem masculine enough for some, he has these most important characteristics of a man, and this is why Daphne and so many female fans love that character so much. AND, Daphne knew who she was married to and knew she could count on him, and she related to him that way. A real man who wants those things below would want a woman to relate to him that way. And I think that's the part some people don't understand when they say that they think Daphne became controlling.

Sorry to disagree with most of the posters, but I HATED the way they changed Daphne post-marriage. The sweet, kooky free-spirit of the early seasons was gone, and a moody shrewish harpy took her place. And not just towards poor totally-emasculated Niles, but towards Frasier and Martin as well. I loved Daphne right up to her almost-wedding to Donny, hated her after that.

With that in mind, I watched the entire show and found that her actions were right on for each situation. The innocent happy go lucky would not have come across all the sain while her husband was faced with being charged as an accomplice to murder, etc. etc.

With that in mind, I watched the entire show and found that her actions were right on for each situation. The innocent happy go lucky would not have come across all the sain while her husband was faced with being charged as an accomplice to murder, etc. etc.

I agree with you, Pat. I guess everyone was expecting Daphne to stay the same person throughout the whole show. Like they didn't want her to change or evolve. It's ridiculous. Daphne wasn't the same person after she got with Niles, she was a woman in love. Plus, I never found Niles emasculated by Daphne like the person implied.
I'm just sick of people badmouthing her because she became a stronger woman, I guess her becoming a stronger woman makes her a you know what. Whatever. :rolleyes:

Sorry to disagree with most of the posters, but I HATED the way they changed Daphne post-marriage. The sweet, kooky free-spirit of the early seasons was gone, and a moody shrewish harpy took her place. And not just towards poor totally-emasculated Niles, but towards Frasier and Martin as well. I loved Daphne right up to her almost-wedding to Donny, hated her after that.
I wonder if you (or anyone else) could give us some examples, not only of at which times you perceived Daphne as moody, shrewish, and a harpy, but also when you perceived Niles as totally emasculated after he married Daphne? I know there are a few people who feel that same way that you do, and every time it comes up I can't ever get anyone to elaborate on their opinion. I'll probably reply, but I won't rip you up, I promise! :lol: I just want to know what you're seeing that equals moody, shrewish, harpy, and emasculated. And I assume you are aware that the character was pregnant in the later season? That equals moody and irritable for a lot of women, so I hope you'll choose some other examples than anything during that time.

I can agree with you that Daphne became less of a "kooky free-spirit" as the series went on, but I don't think that had much of anything to do with Niles. She gradually became less and less of a kooky free-spirit right from the very start, and to me, it was attributed to her "growing up," so to speak. A lot of those qualities had really toned down long before season 8 when she finally got together with Niles, and even then, I still don't think they had totally disappeared. There's all kinds of times between seasons 8 and 11 that she's being as kooky as ever (talking about showing purebred rats, or about her brothers singing 'I Like a Moose' and 'Four Old Whores,' or trying to set up Frasier with her friend who had facial surgery and "you can't even tell where it used to be," or the one who "you can only tell it's fake under a blacklight," or bugging Martin to return the extra money the ATM machine gave him by telling him that whole story about her brother Nigel and his baby teeth...)

I really felt like Daphne and Niles became a strong couple after they got together and after they got married. Both of the characters were stronger and more confident together than they ever were alone, and not only were they good to each other, but they held each other accountable too, which translated into a happy and healthy relationship/marriage for them. The dictionary defines "emasculated" as to deprive of strength or vigor; weaken. I can see that fitting Niles when he was married to Maris, but I can't make that fit at all with his relationship to Daphne. You seem like someone who has a valid opinion and isn't here just to ruffle feathers... can you shed some light on your opinion?

I wonder if you (or anyone else) could give us some examples, not only of at which times you perceived Daphne as moody, shrewish, and a harpy, but also when you perceived Niles as totally emasculated after he married Daphne? I know there are a few people who feel that same way that you do, and every time it comes up I can't ever get anyone to elaborate on their opinion. I'll probably reply, but I won't rip you up, I promise! :lol: I just want to know what you're seeing that equals moody, shrewish, harpy, and emasculated. And I assume you are aware that the character was pregnant in the later season? That equals moody and irritable for a lot of women, so I hope you'll choose some other examples than anything during that time.

I can agree with you that Daphne became less of a "kooky free-spirit" as the series went on, but I don't think that had much of anything to do with Niles. She gradually became less and less of a kooky free-spirit right from the very start, and to me, it was attributed to her "growing up," so to speak. A lot of those qualities had really toned down long before season 8 when she finally got together with Niles, and even then, I still don't think they had totally disappeared. There's all kinds of times between seasons 8 and 11 that she's being as kooky as ever (talking about showing purebred rats, or about her brothers singing 'I Like a Moose' and 'Four Old Whores,' or trying to set up Frasier with her friend who had facial surgery and "you can't even tell where it used to be," or the one who "you can only tell it's fake under a blacklight," or bugging Martin to return the extra money the ATM machine gave him by telling him that whole story about her brother Nigel and his baby teeth...)

I really felt like Daphne and Niles became a strong couple after they got together and after they got married. Both of the characters were stronger and more confident together than they ever were alone, and not only were they good to each other, but they held each other accountable too, which translated into a happy and healthy relationship/marriage for them. The dictionary defines "emasculated" as to deprive of strength or vigor; weaken. I can see that fitting Niles when he was married to Maris, but I can't make that fit at all with his relationship to Daphne. You seem like someone who has a valid opinion and isn't here just to ruffle feathers... can you shed some light on your opinion?

Well bingbangbaby, it looks like this person can't defend their opinion, just like all the others out there who badmouth Daphne. I mean really, is it that hard for them to tell us why they feel the way they do? I guess so since they don't seem to respond when asked continuously why they hate Daphne so much. Oh well, their loss. :rolleyes:

Well bingbangbaby, it looks like this person can't defend their opinion, just like all the others out there who badmouth Daphne. I mean really, is it that hard for them to tell us why they feel the way they do? I guess so since they don't seem to respond when asked continuously why they hate Daphne so much. Oh well, their loss. :rolleyes:
I wish they would respond though, because I'd really like to know what their opinions are.
I underlined "held each other accountable" in my post above because that's my guess as to what people are seeing that they might be translating into those things they said about the characters. And it's always harder for people to take that quality in a woman than in a man (because June Cleaver and Donna Reed and Carol Brady and most of our grandmas didn't have that), so I think that's why they are so hard on Daphne. Plus, we never saw her-- or him, for that matter-- in a relationship that was a two-way street, where they both were in love with the other. Remember in Frasier's Edge she said to Roz that it was the happiest time of her life because she's in love with a man who loves her? To me, that statement means she's never been in a relationship like that before, that with all the others, either he loved her but she wasn't really in love with him, or vice versa. And we know for sure that the same is true for Niles. So it did present new shades of the Daphne character, and maybe some perceived that as out of character. I don't see it that way though... she was always rather outgoing and a little spunky, so it fits perfectly in character to me.

Some examples of holding each other accountable are when Daphne pressed him about when he was going to clean out the birdcage and in Murder Most Maris when he was talking to Maris and said he was going to visit her at the jail and she yelled at him "are you out of your bloody mind? I have tried to be understanding about this..." etc. Niles held her accountable when she looked at that patient's file and went to her office in The First Temptation of Daphne, and in Maris Returns/Murder Most Maris after she had been so hormonally irritable with him and made him sleep on the couch. Another example is the cute little sparring they had going on when they both showed up with tickets for concerts on the same night and they were trying to decide which concert to go to. Neither one of them gave in but instead pointed out back and forth which things they had recently done that were a "him thing" or a "her thing." I can't remember exactly which episode that was, but the concert tickets were for Mongolian Throat Singing and Billy Joel. But the point, and the reason why it equals a healthy relationship, is because each time one set the other straight it was because they needed to be set straight. It wasn't a matter of domination or emasculation or bitchiness or whatever else. It was simply a loving, healthy relationship. I guess there aren't many of those around nowadays, so I suppose it could be unrecognizable to a lot of people. But really, if you can't trust your partner in life to tell you when you're acting stupid and set you straight, then who can you trust?

I wish they would respond though, because I'd really like to know what their opinions are.
I underlined "held each other accountable" in my post above because that's my guess as to what people are seeing that they might be translating into those things they said about the characters. And it's always harder for people to take that quality in a woman than in a man (because June Cleaver and Donna Reed and Carol Brady and most of our grandmas didn't have that), so I think that's why they are so hard on Daphne. Plus, we never saw her-- or him, for that matter-- in a relationship that was a two-way street, where they both were in love with the other. Remember in Frasier's Edge she said to Roz that it was the happiest time of her life because she's in love with a man who loves her? To me, that statement means she's never been in a relationship like that before, that with all the others, either he loved her but she wasn't really in love with him, or vice versa. And we know for sure that the same is true for Niles. So it did present new shades of the Daphne character, and maybe some perceived that as out of character. I don't see it that way though... she was always rather outgoing and a little spunky, so it fits perfectly in character to me.

Some examples of holding each other accountable are when Daphne pressed him about when he was going to clean out the birdcage and in Murder Most Maris when he was talking to Maris and said he was going to visit her at the jail and she yelled at him "are you out of your bloody mind? I have tried to be understanding about this..." etc. Niles held her accountable when she looked at that patient's file and went to her office in The First Temptation of Daphne, and in Maris Returns/Murder Most Maris after she had been so hormonally irritable with him and made him sleep on the couch. Another example is the cute little sparring they had going on when they both showed up with tickets for concerts on the same night and they were trying to decide which concert to go to. Neither one of them gave in but instead pointed out back and forth which things they had recently done that were a "him thing" or a "her thing." I can't remember exactly which episode that was, but the concert tickets were for Mongolian Throat Singing and Billy Joel. But the point, and the reason why it equals a healthy relationship, is because each time one set the other straight it was because they needed to be set straight. It wasn't a matter of domination or emasculation or bitchiness or whatever else. It was simply a loving, healthy relationship. I guess there aren't many of those around nowadays, so I suppose it could be unrecognizable to a lot of people. But really, if you can't trust your partner in life to tell you when you're acting stupid and set you straight, then who can you trust?

Brilliantly said, bingbangbaby! :D

either way she always looked good darn Good !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bxoAsvhcOI