The more I read about this guy the more I really don't like him. I mean don't get me wrong he was a very good actor and made Archie Bunker into a classic tv character, but he was nothing but a troublemaker alot of the time. He said in an interview dated in 1980 that Edith needed to die so his show 'Archie Bunker's Place' could live. Norman Lear was practically in tears that he had to write off the beloved Edith Bunker character. Jean Stapleton, who was leaving the role, even refused to do a death scene.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=KIQwAAAAIBAJ&sjid=4PoDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6649,510166&dq=jean+stapleton&hl=en

http://gallery.allinthefamilysit.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_archie_edith.jpg

That's very interesting. I was always under the impression that it was Norman Lear's idea. All I remember is that it was reported that she was going to die. I don't remember where I heard it from but I did know by the time the season started. If this would have happened today with the internet and the 24 hour news it would be huge. In the long run, I think it did help ABP but looking back maybe it wasn't worth it.

The mistake, imho, was going ahead to begin with. Yeah, I can see that if you had Archie go on without Edith and Edith was still alive somewhere it wouldn't make sense because the audience would always be wondering where she was and why Archie didn't ever see her. So in that respect it made sense. I mean I don't think it's fair to blame it all on O'Connor because it was Stapleton's wish to leave, he was just left with the explanation (well he and Lear).

It just adds more strength to the argument that when key characters, whose presence defines a show, leave, they should just end things. Not only the main show but any and all spinoffs. Anything further is just milking things for cash.

The mistake, imho, was going ahead to begin with. Yeah, I can see that if you had Archie go on without Edith and Edith was still alive somewhere it wouldn't make sense because the audience would always be wondering where she was and why Archie didn't ever see her. So in that respect it made sense. I mean I don't think it's fair to blame it all on O'Connor because it was Stapleton's wish to leave, he was just left with the explanation (well he and Lear).

It just adds more strength to the argument that when key characters, whose presence defines a show, leave, they should just end things. Not only the main show but any and all spinoffs. Anything further is just milking things for cash.
The first season of ABP did seem strange. The show rarely ever had an episode at the Bunker House other then the episodes that Edith was in. After her death, they had more shows there.

I liked ABP so at the time I was okay with it. The hour long episode that she died was one of the saddest in sitcom history though.

The first season of ABP did seem strange. The show rarely ever had an episode at the Bunker House other then the episodes that Edith was in. After her death, they had more shows there.

I liked ABP so at the time I was okay with it. The hour long episode that she died was one of the saddest in sitcom history though.

I agree, I remember my whole family weeping at that.

I don't want to come off like I hated ABP. I watched it weekly, like a lot of people and I think I really WANTED to like it but when I look back it just really didn't make a lot of sense to make it. And when I think about all the devastation they had to do to make it possible; killing off Edith and breaking up Mike and Gloria and leaving Archie pretty much all alone (Stephanie and Billie weren't going to be around forever) I really don't think it was worth the cost. I'd like to think that these characters deserved a happier ending, if that makes any sense.

I agree, I remember my whole family weeping at that.

I don't want to come off like I hated ABP. I watched it weekly, like a lot of people and I think I really WANTED to like it but when I look back it just really didn't make a lot of sense to make it. And when I think about all the devastation they had to do to make it possible; killing off Edith and breaking up Mike and Gloria and leaving Archie pretty much all alone (Stephanie and Billie weren't going to be around forever) I really don't think it was worth the cost. I'd like to think that these characters deserved a happier ending, if that makes any sense.
Yea it makes sense and I can understand it. I remember watching the 3 part season final when Mike and Gloria moved to California in 1978. My whole family watched it together. It felt like the end of the series. I remember they showed Archie and Edith alone in the house and I thought that would have been a good way to end it. Considering how CBS just canceled ABP, that would have been a perfect ending. I think the problem with ABP is that it will always be compared to AITF. On it's own, it was a pretty good show. It just wasn't a groundbreaking show like the parent series was.

Obviously, the network and O'Connor didn't want to let Archie go, hence the continuation series ABP.

But obviously, a few years later, the network decided Archie was too old hat and gave him the ax after the fact. No finale, no goodbye.

And lower rated shows than ABP were renewed for the following season (1983-84), so I think some politics came into play.

As much as we all hate to see our beloved characters leave the stage, I think it's very important for the creators to realize when that time comes. Mary Tyler Moore understood it, and never really missed a beat quality wise. Very few other shows had that kind of foresight (and integrity).

I remember watching Willie Mays fall down in the outfield during the 1973 World Series and hearing my dad say he should have retired before it got to that point. The same holds true for TV shows. It's hard to know when to step down, but if you don't do it at the right time, the memory people have of you is always kind of tainted by that messy and uncomfortable ending.

Obviously, the network and O'Connor didn't want to let Archie go, hence the continuation series ABP.

But obviously, a few years later, the network decided Archie was too old hat and gave him the ax after the fact. No finale, no goodbye.

And lower rated shows than ABP were renewed for the following season (1983-84), so I think some politics came into play.
I couldn't believe they renewed Goodnight Beantown. I love Bill Bixby but that was a mediocre sitcom that CBS kept on the Sunday night lineup instead of ABP. I think that was the beginning of the end of CBS' great Sunday night sitcom Dynasty. All that was left was an aging Alice and The Jeffersons.

Obviously, the network and O'Connor didn't want to let Archie go, hence the continuation series ABP.

But obviously, a few years later, the network decided Archie was too old hat and gave him the ax after the fact. No finale, no goodbye.

And lower rated shows than ABP were renewed for the following season (1983-84), so I think some politics came into play.


After 12 years it showed that being rated #22 for the 82-83 season was time for the show to end. I mean it was lower than Gloria that season so the show still had a long successful run.


Also it was nothing else to do but kill edith off since Carroll O Connor wanted to continue and Jean stapleton didn't. How else would you have explained where the Edith character was?

I don't want to come off like I hated ABP. I watched it weekly, like a lot of people and I think I really WANTED to like it but when I look back it just really didn't make a lot of sense to make it.

I agree. Personally, while I loved All in the Family (that is, until Mike and Gloria left), I hated Archie Bunker's Place and found it painfully boring. In the end, it was only getting along on the strength of its lead-in, 60 Minutes, which was the number 1 show at that time. But Archie Bunker's Place still lost nearly a third of the 60 Minutes audience. Networks don't like that and want audiences to build throughout the evening, not decrease. I think at some point in the '82-'83 season, CBS experimented with moving it to a different night to see how it would do without the 60 Minutes lead-in, and it went straight to the bottom of the ratings.

I agree with the comment that they should have quit while they were ahead, like they did with The Mary Tyler Moore Show, and it was still a quality show. That would have been back in 1978 when Mike and Gloria moved away. So I agree also with that comment that that would have been the perfect way to end the series. As for shows like Goodnight Beantown and Alice, yeah, they should have gone, too.

I agree. Personally, while I loved All in the Family (that is, until Mike and Gloria left), I hated Archie Bunker's Place and found it painfully boring. In the end, it was only getting along on the strength of its lead-in, 60 Minutes, which was the number 1 show at that time. But Archie Bunker's Place still lost nearly a third of the 60 Minutes audience. Networks don't like that and want audiences to build throughout the evening, not decrease. I think at some point in the '82-'83 season, CBS experimented with moving it to a different night to see how it would do without the 60 Minutes lead-in, and it went straight to the bottom of the ratings.

I agree with the comment that they should have quit while they were ahead, like they did with The Mary Tyler Moore Show, and it was still a quality show. That would have been back in 1978 when Mike and Gloria moved away. So I agree also with that comment that that would have been the perfect way to end the series. As for shows like Goodnight Beantown and Alice, yeah, they should have gone, too.


The show kept going because the guy who was responsible for the success of the show was STILL ON THE SHOW.

The show kept going because the guy who was responsible for the success of the show was STILL ON THE SHOW.

It wasn't just O'Connor that was "responsible for the success of the show". That's the point we're making; it was an ensemble effort. Try making that show from the beginning without Edith, Mike or Gloria. It wouldn't have lasted a single season.

It wasn't just O'Connor that was "responsible for the success of the show". That's the point we're making; it was an ensemble effort. Try making that show from the beginning without Edith, Mike or Gloria. It wouldn't have lasted a single season.

He was 70% of the reason. You try having a show with Just Edith, Mike, and Gloria

He was 70% of the reason. You try having a show with Just Edith, Mike, and Gloria

So Edith, Mike and Gloria were each 10 percent huh? Generous. :rolleyes:

I never said the show could last without Archie. You implied it could last without Mike, Gloria and Edith, though, and I disagreed.

So Edith, Mike and Gloria were each 10 percent huh? Generous. :rolleyes:

I never said the show could last without Archie. You implied it could last without Mike, Gloria and Edith, though, and I disagreed.


I haven't had the opportunity to see ABP so I can't comment on the show

It wasn't just O'Connor that was "responsible for the success of the show". That's the point we're making; it was an ensemble effort. Try making that show from the beginning without Edith, Mike or Gloria. It wouldn't have lasted a single season.

Exactly. Many (probably most) people were watching Archie Bunker's Place out of habit, and because the TV was already turned to that channel because of 60 Minutes. For any show to work, it takes more than just the main character; it also requires the right supporting cast and format. Other than O'Connor, all those elements that made All in the Family an exceptional show and mega hit were gone. And as you put it, if All in the Family went on the air back in '71 with Archie, but no Edith, Mike and Gloria, it would have been off the air in weeks.

When CBS changed All in the Family's time slot in the fall of 1971, the viewers followed right along. But when CBS temporarily moved Archie Bunker's Place to another time slot in the spring of 1983, away from its comfortable position after 60 Minutes, viewers weren't following anymore. (Archie Bunker's Place was moved to Monday nights at the end of March 1983 and Goodnight Beantown took over the time slot after 60 Minutes. Goodnight Beantown even managed to pull in ratings that were about 20-25 higher than what Archie Bunker's Place had been getting in that slot, while Archie Bunker's Place dropped down further in the ratings in its new Monday night time slot. Realizing Archie Bunker's Place had been riding on the coattails of 60 Minutes and still losing audience share led CBS to cancel it.)

Well, really, there was nothing to do but kill the character of Edith off? Was she to divorce Archie? Run off with another man? How do you reasonably explain it?

I know O'Connor claims he was the brainchild behind AITF, all I can say was that he WAS the brainchild behind Archie Bunker's Place and it was a terrible show. I don't even know how it lasted four years. But, people did watch. Mainly because the years 1980 - 1984 were pretty weak for sitcoms I think.

Exactly. Many (probably most) people were watching Archie Bunker's Place out of habit, and because the TV was already turned to that channel because of 60 Minutes. For any show to work, it takes more than just the main character; it also requires the right supporting cast and format. Other than O'Connor, all those elements that made All in the Family an exceptional show and mega hit were gone. And as you put it, if All in the Family went on the air back in '71 with Archie, but no Edith, Mike and Gloria, it would have been off the air in weeks.

When CBS changed All in the Family's time slot in the fall of 1971, the viewers followed right along. But when CBS temporarily moved Archie Bunker's Place to another time slot in the spring of 1983, away from its comfortable position after 60 Minutes, viewers weren't following anymore. (Archie Bunker's Place was moved to Monday nights at the end of March 1983 and Goodnight Beantown took over the time slot after 60 Minutes. Goodnight Beantown even managed to pull in ratings that were about 20-25 higher than what Archie Bunker's Place had been getting in that slot, while Archie Bunker's Place dropped down further in the ratings in its new Monday night time slot. Realizing Archie Bunker's Place had been riding on the coattails of 60 Minutes and still losing audience share led CBS to cancel it.)
I doubt it was just that. Back then people would just watch the whole CBS lineup. That's what we did. We didn't even turn it on until 8 and we kept watching until Trapper John M.D. went off at 11. Ratings did fall during that last season and you're right the show was moved to Monday in March 1983. I must admit that I didn't even remember that. All I remember is how Goodnight Beantown replaced it on Sunday night. When ABP premiered though, it was only doing slightly less then what AITF had been doing in it's last season. It also stabalized CBS' Sunday lineup. Before that, CBS had a history of having poorly rated shows in that timeslot. The previous season MTM's variety series had aired there. In the fall of 1979 ABC moved it's #3 ranked show Mork & Mindy to Sundays at 8 to compete against it and ABP destroyed it. So although ratings did fall during the 1982-83 season, for the first 3 seasons it was ranked just outside the top 10.

I doubt it was just that. Back then people would just watch the whole CBS lineup. That's what we did. We didn't even turn it on until 8 and we kept watching until Trapper John M.D. went off at 11. Ratings did fall during that last season and you're right the show was moved to Monday in March 1983. I must admit that I didn't even remember that. All I remember is how Goodnight Beantown replaced it on Sunday night. When ABP premiered though, it was only doing slightly less then what AITF had been doing in it's last season. It also stabalized CBS' Sunday lineup. Before that, CBS had a history of having poorly rated shows in that timeslot. The previous season MTM's variety series had aired there. In the fall of 1979 ABC moved it's #3 ranked show Mork & Mindy to Sundays at 8 to compete against it and ABP destroyed it. So although ratings did fall during the 1982-83 season, for the first 3 seasons it was ranked just outside the top 10.


I have a original sunday lineup laying around somewhere with the Jeffersons and ABP that I will watch this weekend so I can critique the show

I doubt it was just that. Back then people would just watch the whole CBS lineup. That's what we did. We didn't even turn it on until 8 and we kept watching until Trapper John M.D. went off at 11. Ratings did fall during that last season and you're right the show was moved to Monday in March 1983. I must admit that I didn't even remember that. All I remember is how Goodnight Beantown replaced it on Sunday night. When ABP premiered though, it was only doing slightly less then what AITF had been doing in it's last season. It also stabalized CBS' Sunday lineup. Before that, CBS had a history of having poorly rated shows in that timeslot. The previous season MTM's variety series had aired there. In the fall of 1979 ABC moved it's #3 ranked show Mork & Mindy to Sundays at 8 to compete against it and ABP destroyed it. So although ratings did fall during the 1982-83 season, for the first 3 seasons it was ranked just outside the top 10.

Your second sentence is exactly what I was talking about: habit. But also having a very strong lead-in, 60 Minutes. And the proof was in the pudding when they moved ABP to Monday night, breaking the habit and making it stand on its own, and it plummeted in the ratings. They put Goodnight Beantown in ABP's Sunday time slot and it performed much better, holding on to more of the 60 Minutes viewers.

Though ABP had been doing well in the Sunday time slot, it was still losing too many of the 60 Minutes viewers. CBS wanted a show in that time slot that would hold onto the 60 Minutes audience. Goodnight Beantown served that purpose better.

Ironically, back during the 1972-73 season, it was All in the Family that was in the megahit position that 60 Minutes was in by '82-'83. Bridget Loves Bernie immediately followed AITF and wound up being the #5 show on TV that season, a position that normally would qualify it as a hit. But the fact is, it lost 25% of the AITF audience (AITF had such a huge audience that a show with 25% fewer viewers could still land in 5th place). So in spite of being in 5th place, the fact that BLB lost so many AITF viewers was reason enough for CBS to cancel it. Fast forward to 1983 and it was ABP that was in the same position BLB had been in and it got canceled for the same reason.

Your second sentence is exactly what I was talking about: habit. But also having a very strong lead-in, 60 Minutes. And the proof was in the pudding when they moved ABP to Monday night, breaking the habit and making it stand on its own, and it plummeted in the ratings. They put Goodnight Beantown in ABP's Sunday time slot and it performed much better, holding on to more of the 60 Minutes viewers.

Though ABP had been doing well in the Sunday time slot, it was still losing too many of the 60 Minutes viewers. CBS wanted a show in that time slot that would hold onto the 60 Minutes audience. Goodnight Beantown served that purpose better.

Ironically, back during the 1972-73 season, it was All in the Family that was in the megahit position that 60 Minutes was in by '82-'83. Bridget Loves Bernie immediately followed AITF and wound up being the #5 show on TV that season, a position that normally would qualify it as a hit. But the fact is, it lost 25% of the AITF audience (AITF had such a huge audience that a show with 25% fewer viewers could still land in 5th place). So in spite of being in 5th place, the fact that BLB lost so many AITF viewers was reason enough for CBS to cancel it. Fast forward to 1983 and it was ABP that was in the same position BLB had been in and it got canceled for the same reason.
I think CBS used that as an excuse to cancel BLB. I think the protests from The Religious groups was the real reason it got canceled. It actually performed better than The Mary Tyler Moore Show which followed it.

Getting back to ABP, I do see your point but that also could apply to any of the CBS sitcoms that night. CBS moved Alice in the fall of 1982 to Wednesdays and the ratings fell. They moved back up somewhat when CBS moved it back to Sunday nights the following year. The Jeffersons were in danger of getting canceled before CBS moved it to Sundays in the fall of 1979. Both The Jeffersons and Alice were finally moved to Tuesay in the winter of 1985 where they both died. ODAT had gotten moved as well during it's final season and ratings fell sharply. I managed to watch the final episode but that was the only one I saw once they moved it. I had no VCR back then so I really could only watch one show at a time. I think in the end, CBS had a great Sunday comedy lineup but they all fed off one another. When one moved, it didn't do as well. Goodnight Beantown in the end couldn't replace ABP. It didn't even survive more than 18 episodes. CBS didn't regain control of Sundays again until Murder She Wrote premiered in the fall of 1984.

How did Gloria have more viewers than ABP in the 82-83 season? Very strange

How did Gloria have more viewers than ABP in the 82-83 season? Very strange
I don't really know although I did enjoy Gloria and was shocked that it was canceled.

How did Gloria have more viewers than ABP in the 82-83 season? Very strange

It must have been that catchy theme song. :)

I think CBS used that as an excuse to cancel BLB. I think the protests from The Religious groups was the real reason it got canceled. It actually performed better than The Mary Tyler Moore Show which followed it.

Yes, I've heard that, too, but I've also heard that wasn't the real reason, that it was more about the fact that BLB lost so many AITF viewers. So I don't know.


Getting back to ABP, I do see your point but that also could apply to any of the CBS sitcoms that night. CBS moved Alice in the fall of 1982 to Wednesdays and the ratings fell. They moved back up somewhat when CBS moved it back to Sunday nights the following year.

Yes, this is true. I remember when they moved Alice and it plummeted in the ratings. And I recall Linda Lavin making assurances that Alice wasn't being canceled. I was hoping she was wrong (oh, how I loathed that show at that point), but alas, she was correct. They moved it back to its old time slot and it bounced back and remained on the air another couple years to annoy me.

Ironically, back during the 1972-73 season, it was All in the Family that was in the megahit position that 60 Minutes was in by '82-'83. Bridget Loves Bernie immediately followed AITF and wound up being the #5 show on TV that season, a position that normally would qualify it as a hit. But the fact is, it lost 25% of the AITF audience (AITF had such a huge audience that a show with 25% fewer viewers could still land in 5th place). So in spite of being in 5th place, the fact that BLB lost so many AITF viewers was reason enough for CBS to cancel it. Fast forward to 1983 and it was ABP that was in the same position BLB had been in and it got canceled for the same reason.

I remember reading that a 1974 tv series, "Paul Sand in Friends and Lovers", was slotted in the post-AITF timeslot and suffered the same fate as BLB. It got good ratings, but not good enough ratings for the timeslot.

I remember reading that a 1974 tv series, "Paul Sand in Friends and Lovers", was slotted in the post-AITF timeslot and suffered the same fate as BLB. It got good ratings, but not good enough ratings for the timeslot.


And PAul Sand in Friends and Lovers was replaced by the Jeffersons which was able to hold a large portion of the AITF audience which led to the show being a Lead In the following season

Resuming this conversation four years later...

About Bridget Loves Bernie and Paul Sand in Friends and Lovers losing so much of their All in the Family lead-in, I think I can make a comparison:

* Bridget Loves Bernie ranked 5th for the 1972-73 season with a 24.7 rating
* M*A*S*H ranked 4th for the 1973-74 season and fared better with a 25.7.
* Paul Sand in Friends and Lovers averaged just a 20.6 and ranked 25th for the 1974-75 season, and hurt the ratings for The Mary Tyler Moore Show. It was cancelled and replaced midseason by The Jeffersons (a spinoff of AitF), which averaged a 27.6 rating and ranked 4th for the season.

The show revolved around Archie.

But they all kept the show going for the money. Ironic isn't it?

Your second sentence is exactly what I was talking about: habit. But also having a very strong lead-in, 60 Minutes. And the proof was in the pudding when they moved ABP to Monday night, breaking the habit and making it stand on its own, and it plummeted in the ratings. They put Goodnight Beantown in ABP's Sunday time slot and it performed much better, holding on to more of the 60 Minutes viewers.

Though ABP had been doing well in the Sunday time slot, it was still losing too many of the 60 Minutes viewers. CBS wanted a show in that time slot that would hold onto the 60 Minutes audience. Goodnight Beantown served that purpose better.

Ironically, back during the 1972-73 season, it was All in the Family that was in the megahit position that 60 Minutes was in by '82-'83. Bridget Loves Bernie immediately followed AITF and wound up being the #5 show on TV that season, a position that normally would qualify it as a hit. But the fact is, it lost 25% of the AITF audience (AITF had such a huge audience that a show with 25% fewer viewers could still land in 5th place). So in spite of being in 5th place, the fact that BLB lost so many AITF viewers was reason enough for CBS to cancel it. Fast forward to 1983 and it was ABP that was in the same position BLB had been in and it got canceled for the same reason.

Archie Bunker's Place had a lower cancellation threshold because Carol O'Connor was making so much money.

I never heard a story about Jean Stapleton refusing to do a death scene. She wanted out of the show, and I think she didn't really care how they explained Edith's absence or what they did to the character.

If you watch her interview from the Academy of Television Arts & Sciences website, she didn't seem to think it was that big of deal. She said something to Normal Lear along the lines of "It is just a character, she isn't real" to which Lear said, "To me, she was."

Sure, they could have explained her absence in a number of ways. She was off visiting an aunt in Buffalo, or she was home cleaning, or whatever. But if you did it that way, then the audience would be "Where's Edith? She's around, put her on." They really didn't have a choice but to kill off the character if Stapleton left the show for good.

Looking back I wonder why a divorce wasn't possible. But I guess the viewers felt there was a strong bond between Archie and Edith and neither one could have strayed. The death was the best although it seems so cold. Then again people do die.

Divorce wouldn't have worked. The audience would have blamed Archie for it.

Ultimately, if the "price" for continuing AITF as ABP was killing off Edith, was it really worth it? A beloved character dead, a show with no closure and an open ended and probably depressing fate for the other main character, just to facilitate a lackluster show that lasted four years and paled in comparison to its parent show?

I don't think so.

"The Stivics Go West" should have been the series' end. Period.

I totally agree with you. I think many sitcoms run too long, especially the ones that run for 8 or more years. By that point, they have exhausted all plausible storylines. The only reason a series runs more than 7 seasons is because of money: more money for the actors, more syndication revenues, etc. But after seven years and 150 episodes, a sitcom is usually finished.

I would agree that when Mike and Gloria left to go west that should've been the end of the series. Since they did go on with the series, I don't see any other solution other than having Edith die, unfortunately. I'm sure they had good intentions of making Archie Bunkers Place an interesting show, but I never thought it was. The best I can say about it is that it was watchable. Archie had mellowed too much by then and he didn't have Edith and Meathead to play off, so the whole thing was kind of lackluster.

I would agree that when Mike and Gloria left to go west that should've been the end of the series. Since they did go on with the series, I don't see any other solution other than having Edith die, unfortunately. I'm sure they had good intentions of making Archie Bunkers Place an interesting show, but I never thought it was. The best I can say about it is that it was watchable. Archie had mellowed too much by then and he didn't have either and meathead to play off, so the whole thing was kind of lackluster.


And the show would have ended at #1

Archie Bunker's Place wasn't a bad show, but it wasn't a great show like All In The Family, either.

The character had mellowed and was a bit tired. The supporting characters on ABP didn't spark Archie the way Rob Reiner did as Meathead on AITF and the show did coast a bit at times.

But it still was a decent show. Problem is, you can't help but compare Archie in that setting to his glory days sparring with the Meathead and Jefferson and ABP will come up short as a result.

Archie Bunker's Place wasn't a bad show, but it wasn't a great show like All In The Family, either.

The character had mellowed and was a bit tired. The supporting characters on ABP didn't spark Archie the way Rob Reiner did as Meathead on AITF and the show did coast a bit at times.

But it still was a decent show. Problem is, you can't help but compare Archie in that setting to his glory days sparring with the Meathead and Jefferson and ABP will come up short as a result.

Do you feel it was worth killing off Edith to make ABP possible?

Do you feel it was worth killing off Edith to make ABP possible?

I don't think they had a choice. The only other alternative would be to have Edith be never seen or have her off visiting a sick relative.

As long as Edith was alive, the audience would wonder where she was.

I think it was the right decision and it did make for a very moving episode when Archie breaks down and finally mourns Edith, after being in denial and not talking about it.

I don't think they had a choice. The only other alternative would be to have Edith be never seen or have her off visiting a sick relative.

As long as Edith was alive, the audience would wonder where she was.

I think it was the right decision and it did make for a very moving episode when Archie breaks down and finally mourns Edith, after being in denial and not talking about it.

Thanks, I understand your point. Mine is just that I would rather have never had an ABP at all than have beloved Edith end up dead, and Archie end up alone.

Feel similarly about "Gloria". I'd rather they never did that show at all if it meant breaking up Mike and Gloria.

All the seasons of ABP were more watchable than season 9 of all in the family

I imagine the decision to have Edith die was every bit as unpopular with fans as Henry Blake's death on "M*A*S*H" 5 years before.

Indeed the show held on for too long. AITF began losing its edge during season 6 once the Stivics moved out. The show still worked, but the magic the show had from the first 5 seasons was beginning to dull.

After the end of season 8, I too concur the show should have ended. When a show is based on four principal characters, it loses a lot when 50% of them leave.

I believe the main reason ABP didn't work is because most of the main cast were just part time characters from the old series (Barney, Harry, Hank, Mr. Van R.).

Cheers was set in a bar/tavern and it had an eleven year run, in spite of many major cast changes and the death of Coach. MASH also had the same kind of success, including the death of a main character. Both shows had 6, 7 or even 8 main members though, vs. only 4 on All in the Family.

No, the show would not have worked without Archie to be sure. There were episodes without him, including the "Where's Archie?" 3 episode story arc. That worked/works because we knew he was coming back.

But if the main character is gone, the show can't last as long. Case in point, The Golden Girls. They tried to do this show as The Golden Palace, without Beatrice Arthur, and it only lasted a season. Dorothy was the anchor of the show, just as Archie was on AITF, just as Sam Malone was on Cheers & Hawkeye on MASH.

I was able to watch most of the first season of ABP on youtube. It was "okay", but it just felt so empty to me. Even season 9 of AITF leaves me with an empty feeling. The lack of a live studio audience was one reason. The Archie "schtick" after 8 years was getting somewhat long in the tooth too. That's one reason why I've not watched "The Big Bang Theory" the past couple of years now. The whole "Beauty & the Nerd" thing was unique back in 2007, but some 8 years later, the novelty wore off.

I never liked "Seinfeld", but I must tip my cap to him and his cast as they went off the airways as the number 1 show on TV. Go out while you're still on top, and leave them wanting more. Mary Tyler Moore did this. Johnny Carson did this too when he retired in May 1992.

I'd rather have had AITF end in May 1978, and then maybe on occasion have a special where the family would reunite over the holidays instead of season 9 with Steffie, then 4 seasons of humdrum ABP.

The show had no choice but to kill off Edith. None. There was no other option.

Archie Bunker's Place wasn't bad, Barney Heffner, Mr. Rensselaer (the blind dude, wrongly spelled), Archie's partner, Murray played by the excellent Martin Balsam, Anne Meara.

I guess one day ABP will be on Antenna TV

The show had no choice but to kill off Edith. None. There was no other option.

Archie Bunker's Place wasn't bad, Barney Heffner, Mr. Rensselaer (the blind dude, wrongly spelled), Archie's partner, Murray played by the excellent Martin Balsam, Anne Meara.

I've said this before:

All In The Family was a great show.

Archie Bunker's Place was a good show.

O'Connor thinks Jean Stapleton might still be with the show if Mort Lochman and the writers had listened to him and started building episodes around Edith. "I wanted them to expand the character. To show Edith awakening to her own potential and, instead of her reacting to Archie, have Archie react to her, to try and stop her growth. But it's always easier to write for a' character who you're sure is going to get the easy laugh. "The same thing happened with Marty Balsam. I had hoped they'd split the shows and give him half of them, but again they argued that it was Archie's show." O'CONNOR HAS NEVER tired of Archie." https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/490107132/

But viewers tuned in to see Archie or the family as a whole. Not episodes revolving around Edith

As I understand it, Jean Stapleton was just tired of playing the character, that's all.

I don't think she was dissatisfied with the show or the lack of emphasis on her charcter, she'd been playing the character for over a decade and wanted to move on.

I think killing off the character was the best route to go; what were they going to do, have Archie and Edith divorce? Have her leave town to go help a sick relative? Always be at work and never home?

But viewers tuned in to see Archie or the family as a whole. Not episodes revolving around EdithYes and I am one of them!!

There was no choice really. Edith and Archie and not going to get divorced nor will Edith run away with another man (even the German/Jewish(?) butcher). There was no other choice.

I have heard that O’Connor wanted to continue playing Archie forever, literally. O’Connor even pitched a show in the 1990’s of him driving a cab and interacting with his fares. That might have been interesting. He really hates giving up that role and it might have been because it gave him fame and fortune when before his was a bit actor. He should have been happy with “In the Heat of the Night” and probably was (and the Sheriff character was very different than Archie and O’Connor pulled off being Southern and I am from the South). But O’Connor loved Archie because it gave him his career.

The last time Jean Stapleton and Carroll O’Connor appeared together was on a talk show hosted by Donny and Marie. The hosts asked Jean to do the Edith voice and she refused politely saying it was in her past and she gets paid (I guess she got paid to do the show but whatever), and Donny said he would pay her and she said something like “You don’t have enough money…” I don’t think Stapleton was a jerk, she just didn’t want to do it. She was a very educated and urbane woman who was much much different than Edith Bunker.

There was no choice really. Edith and Archie and not going to get divorced nor will Edith run away with another man (even the German/Jewish(?) butcher). There was no other choice.

I have heard that O’Connor wanted to continue playing Archie forever, literally. O’Connor even pitched a show in the 1990’s of him driving a cab and interacting with his fares. That might have been interesting. He really hates giving up that role and it might have been because it gave him fame and fortune when before his was a bit actor. He should have been happy with “In the Heat of the Night” and probably was (and the Sheriff character was very different than Archie and O’Connor pulled off being Southern and I am from the South). But O’Connor loved Archie because it gave him his career.

This is true. CoC had spin off ideas in the hopper to keep Archie going until 2000.

Don't see why anyone would have a problem with it.

What would you rather happen?


They get divorced?

Ah man!!

Since Carroll and Lear wanted to continue the show it was the only option

Don't see why anyone would have a problem with it.

What would you rather happen?


They get divorced?

Exactly. Jean Stapleton wanted to move on and I think even she was okay with decision. She said something at the time like "You can't kill an idea." And I think she said that if viewers wanted Edith, they could watch reruns.

I guess one day ABP will be on Antenna TV

Nailed it :thumbsup:

Nailed it :thumbsup:

Maybe it will be on Pluto in 2029?:lol:

There are some on-demand episodes on the Crackle streaming app.

They only have episodes from the first three episodes and not all of them.

I did watch the full "Archie Alone" episode today, albeit with a lot of commercials.

This thread has been going on for over 11 years and it just dawned on me that this thread should be in the Archie Bunker's Place forum under 1980s shows!

I had to laugh at the first post on this thread. No disrespect to the OP. We were all moved by Edith's passing but she was a fictional character. Caroll was 100% right. Jean only agreed to appear in a few episodes of Archie Bunker's Place so the transition would be seamless. How could you explain Edith's absence? It would be dumb and out of character for her to divorce Archie and move out. It was the right move to do. It also had huge ratings for Archie Bunker's Place. It allowed Archie to be free and let other characters move in.

This thread has been going on for over 11 years and it just dawned on me that this thread should be in the Archie Bunker's Place forum under 1980s shows!Ah man!!

Ah man!!


:lol:

I had to laugh at the first post on this thread. No disrespect to the OP. We were all moved by Edith's passing but she was a fictional character. Caroll was 100% right. Jean only agreed to appear in a few episodes of Archie Bunker's Place so the transition would be seamless. How could you explain Edith's absence? It would be dumb and out of character for her to divorce Archie and move out. It was the right move to do. It also had huge ratings for Archie Bunker's Place. It allowed Archie to be free and let other characters move in.

Edith would have never moved out. She would have never have left Stephanie. So the only choice was the one that was made. It wasn't perfect but at least we got new characters; some worked like Billie and Estelle Harris, some didn't like Mrs. Canby and Katherine

Edith would have never moved out. She would have never have left Stephanie. So the only choice was the one that was made. It wasn't perfect but at least we got new characters; some worked like Billie and Estelle Harris, some didn't like Mrs. Canby and Katherine

I'm sure Carroll O' Connor would have loved to do ABP with Jean Stapleton, but Stapleton was done with Edith after nearly 10 years, so yes, they did the right thing.

And think about it: If this were today, the network would probably have made O' Connor keep the All In The Family name for the show. At least by naming it ABP, it was its own thing.

I dunno what Edith was doing so wrong that he wanted her off the show.....

I dunno what Edith was doing so wrong that he wanted her off the show.....

What she did wrong was not appearing enough. Her continuing absence was awkward to explain. Plus Jean wanted all of her appearances taped at once to free up the rest of the year to do other projects. This made it hard because the entire season was not mapped out that far in advance, and it made it impossible to incorporate unexpected changes later in the season.

Hmmmm perhaps.........

By the time we arrive at season 2, Carroll is wearing multiple hats including writing episodes, directing episodes, acting and producing a man for all seasons. As a producer he is responsible for the budget and that's the rub. Jean I'm sure was paid a premium to appear in a handful of episodes in season 1, plus there were additional production costs since all her episodes needed to be filmed during one time period. O'Connor as the producer has to ask himself one question, are the handful of appearances Jean will make worth the cost, are her appearances in episodes resulting in significantly higher rating than those episodes without Jean. These decisions usually come down to money, and business is business.

Bottom line is that Stapleton was burned out on Edith after 10 years and wanted to leave.

They had to kill her off.

While Norman Lear was no longer involved with the production, he did agree with the decision and endorsed it.

Some actors move on from a role because they've given all they can to it and need new creative challenges.

O' Connor kept the show going for three years afterwards until the cancellation.

End of story.

Bottom line is that Stapleton was burned out on Edith after 10 years and wanted to leave.

They had to kill her off.

While Norman Lear was no longer involved with the production, he did agree with the decision and endorsed it.

Some actors move on from a role because they've given all they can to it and need new creative challenges.

O' Connor kept the show going for three years afterwards until the cancellation.

End of story.
Thank you. Exactly.
Jean was a trooper. All In The Family came to an end. Archie Bunker's Place was starting. How could you have Archie in that house without Edith. She agreed to try and make it a seamless transition which sort of worked. She never had to do that but was loyal to everyone.
Also her death gave the new show one of the highest rated shows for an episode.

Thank you. Exactly.
Jean was a trooper. All In The Family came to an end. Archie Bunker's Place was starting. How could you have Archie in that house without Edith. She agreed to try and make it a seamless transition which sort of worked. She never had to do that but was loyal to everyone.
Also her death gave the new show one of the highest rated shows for an episode.

You're welcome.

And while this has been posted before, I noticed that after Edith's passing, the lighting in the Bunker house changed. It's darker in the episodes from season 2-4. I guess that was their way of indicating that a change had happened.

You're welcome.

And while this has been posted before, I noticed that after Edith's passing, the lighting in the Bunker house changed. It's darker in the episodes from season 2-4. I guess that was their way of indicating that a change had happened.
You know what's funny. There is a thread in the Archie Bunker's Place about how dark the house was. I woke up really early one morning last week and Archie Bunkers place was on Antenna TV at 430 am. It was season 4 episode 22 and the lighting was back full house. If you notice the ending of season 4 the lighting goes back to normal. I think there was some sort of stage lighting issue they thought would not impact the show since many scenes were at the bar. Check out those late episodes and tell me if I am wrong.

You know what's funny. There is a thread in the Archie Bunker's Place about how dark the house was. I woke up really early one morning last week and Archie Bunkers place was on Antenna TV at 430 am. It was season 4 episode 22 and the lighting was back full house. If you notice the ending of season 4 the lighting goes back to normal. I think there was some sort of stage lighting issue they thought would not impact the show since many scenes were at the bar. Check out those late episodes and tell me if I am wrong.

The live studio audience was dropped at the suggestion of CoC starting w/ season 9 of AITF. It reduced production time from 5 to 4 days. It also resulted in a cleaner final product. It allowed them to rewrite or reshoot scenes more easily. I suspect that impacted the lighting, not the death of Edith.

https://l.smartnews.com/p-7omg5xfy/zhh0cD

This was online today.

It was stupid to drop the audience...... They made it even better!!