alot of cases, or the ones i remember most are the ones where you dont know what happened to the person, they could have disappeared voluntarily, or they could have met with a bad person.

kristi krebs is a perfect example. did she wander into the clutches of a bad guy as she made

what i want to know is, it certainly taps into all our fears. we all fear the dark, the forest, the unknown, but how likely is this scenario.

not just in the krebs case, but in cases in general. how likely is it that some guy was in the woods that night and kristi ran into him? What is the likelihood of that? I'm sure it would be scary as hell, but what are the chances?

Same with that girl who drove into the forest and was a kerouac fan. Did she disappear and live out the life of a kerouacesque wanderer, or did she meet foul play in the woods? Again, what are the chances of someone bad being in the woods at any point?

Walking through a dark forest at midnight would scare anyone, but realistically, how likely is it that there is someone evil in it?

its obvious its happened before, but say you walk down a dark street at 1am, or in the woods at midnight, or in a deserted neighborhood at 2am. Walk down a deserted country road at 2am/ what are the odds and likelihood you will meet with foul play? Honestly?

its obvious its happened before, but say you walk down a dark street at 1am, or in the woods at midnight, or in a deserted neighborhood at 2am. Walk down a deserted country road at 2am/ what are the odds and likelihood you will meet with foul play? Honestly?

It all comes down to common sense. Unless you live in a high-crime area the chances of you meeting with a criminal is far less likely than you not meeting with one. I mean from watching "Unsolved Mysteries" there are things that certain victims did that put themselves in the position that they were in that I would never do. For example:

- - Trying to withdraw money from an ATM late at night (in a city no less).

- - Working the graveyard shift at a convenience store

- - walking alone to a supermarket (or other destination in the middle of a city) and back in the middle of the night.

The bottom line is just use common sense. Be aware of where you live, your surroundings etc. and your chances of encountering a criminal of some sort is probably only slightly higher than being struck by lightning.

I think the chances of randomly running into a bad guy in the woods at night is pretty remote. Unless you happen across a dangerous person living in a makeshift camp, etc. In my experience, walking around the woods at night is more likely to bring danger from nocturnal, predatory animals.

Seems like there have been a few cases (and maybe even UM cases) involving a dangerous person lurking in the woods. Who was the young girl abducted from the local softball park? Seems like she and another child were walking in or near the the woods by the baseball diamonds and she was taken by a man who was sorta hiding in the woods. And then there was Nyleen Kay Marshall, who was in the woods with her family during the day and was either abducted or wandered off.

Kimberly Pandelios didn't venture into the woods, but was lured there during the day with the promise of a modeling job and was then held captive during the day and at least over one night.

Then you've got joggers and other women abducted on somewhat remote bike paths/jogging paths in the early evening (Joyce McLain?) and even during the day (bikepath rapist).

Yesterday, I watched an episode of "I Survived" where two teenage girls were walking home from school near Ft. Bragg. They stopped in a wooded area to sit and talk and have a cigarette. They were hunted by rapist/murder who was specifically using the woods looking for victims. This happened around 3:00 or 4:00 in the afternoon.

In 1966, in Westland, Michigan, there were two girls, about age 11 maybe (and I could be wrong about this, but I thought they were sisters), who were also taking a shortcut through a wooded lot on their way home from school. They were raped and murdered and the killer was never found.

Personally, the only real bad guys I ever ran into were during the day. One was in a very public place, and luckily there were witnesses. He was a child rapist. He later tried to abduct another child during the day in a public place. The other guy was a trusted brother of my elementary school friend. She was also victimized by her brother.

IMO, danger is definitely out there, but it seems that these guys are brazen enough to conduct their criminal activities without the cover of darkness.

Darkdante, the cases you are referring too doesn't necessarily mean the people weren't using there common sense. Sure, Matthew Chase should not have been out that late and night and espeically at an ATM, but he also didn't know he was going to be robbed (and later murdered). Here's what it comes down too: fate, and being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I've almost been kidnapped twice in my life, and luckily, I knew how to handle the situation. It simply comes down to that: fate.

Darkdante, the cases you are referring too doesn't necessarily mean the people weren't using there common sense. Sure, Matthew Chase should not have been out that late and night and espeically at an ATM, but he also didn't know he was going to be robbed (and later murdered). Here's what it comes down too: fate, and being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I've almost been kidnapped twice in my life, and luckily, I knew how to handle the situation. It simply comes down to that: fate.

I'd wager if you take a poll of 50 people and ask them if going to an ATM in a busy city such as Los Angeles late at night is using common sense most of them would tell you no. I won't even try it where I live in upstate NY. I'm not denying that overall fate plays a factor but there are certain situations where common sense dictates that you are running a risk of endangering your life if you put yourself in them.

I'd wager if you take a poll of 50 people and ask them if going to an ATM in a busy city such as Los Angeles late at night is using common sense most of them would tell you no. I won't even try it where I live in upstate NY. I'm not denying that overall fate plays a factor but there are certain situations where common sense dictates that you are running a risk of endangering your life if you put yourself in them.

Yes, today, in 2010. The world is much more advanced in knowledge then it was in 1988.

My point was, bad people are everywhere, that doesn't mean you're automatically going to die if one of them comes around you.

- Working the graveyard shift at a convenience store.

Ugh. As someone who works the midnight shift, I get tired of people calling it the "graveyard shift". Call it third shift or the midnight shift. It's not very flattering to be told that we work on that shift where people get killed. Stuff happens during the daytime as well.

Ugh. As someone who works the midnight shift, I get tired of people calling it the "graveyard shift". Call it third shift or the midnight shift. It's not very flattering to be told that we work on that shift where people get killed. Stuff happens during the daytime as well.

Yeah but something is more likely to happen to someone working that late shift at a convenience store then any other time of day.

My point was, bad people are everywhere, that doesn't mean you're automatically going to die if one of them comes around you.

Yeah that is true however you still use some common sense & be cautious at what your doing. Even back then going to a ATM at that time of night is a bad idea IMO. We are talking about a situation that involves money & all it takes is the wrong person coming by. Sure this could happen in the day but I still would not do this type of thing at that hour. That's just me though.

While Matthew Chase's decision to go to the ATM at night in LA was dumb, it still didn't mean he knew there could be lurking danger. He should have had someone come with him, I understand that point.

But, what about Angela Hammond? She didn't have to stop at that pay phone, she wanted too. By the simple twist of fate, a kidnapper happened to be driving by her, and Lincoln was such a small town on top of that.

Again, the bottom line comes down to fate. Not everyone will be kidnapped/raped/murdered/robbed unless you were meant to be. I lived in one of the worst neighborhoods in one of the biggest cities in the country once, and while I was very cautious of the area, I was never once harmed or threatened by anyone.

Everything looks better in hindsight. would these people have been better off staying at home or going somewhere with a friend? maybe. we'll never know though. too many "Coulda, woulda, shoulda's." some people are just purely a victim of bad circumstances and poor choices.

There are probably many more cases on UM which involve the victim doing something stupid to get themselves in trouble than just being unlucky and a high number of the unlucky incidents involve children being abducted and many of those are a result of the parent making a mistake somewhere prior to the abduction happening. I just do not trust anyone I do not know extremely well, its those people I've know for a short period I tend to raise the red flags if they suddenly have an unusual request they've never had before or show up at your door at an odd hour.

The fear, loathing, and--dare I say it--victim blaming in this thread is a little on the disturbing side.

My $0.02:

1. Not everyone has the luxury of being able to select whatever shift he/she works.

2. Not everyone has the luxury of a vehicle to use to travel to a supermarket or convenience store.

3. Most people assume a reasonable expectation of safe circumstances when they travel out at night. As the event of being abducted or assaulted is the exception to the rule, I find it a little difficult to so quickly point out "stupid" decisions made by victims. They're only a product of conditioning: they'd been out to these same places at the same time multiple times before, and nothing adverse had occured. Why should they have expected any differently?

4. These people didn't have the luxury of viewing reenactments of their own abductions/murders/assaults on national television. You're in an inherently privileged position by virtue of that alone. They weren't.

I'm sorry but I have seen many incidents in my lifetime that if people would have used more common sense the bad things that did happen to them probably would not have happened.

Perfect example, look at all the child abductions that we hear about all the time. Kids walking to the store by themselves, playing outside by themselves, etc. Other parents see & hear these stories yet they still let there child go walking somewhere by themselves or out to play unsupervised. God forbid there child does get abducted, they sit & cannot understand why it happened to there child. To me that is just plain stupidity.

I'm sorry but I have seen many incidents in my lifetime that if people would have used more common sense the bad things that did happen to them probably would not have happened.

Perfect example, look at all the child abductions that we hear about all the time. Kids walking to the store by themselves, playing outside by themselves, etc. Other parents see & hear these stories yet they still let there child go walking somewhere by themselves or out to play unsupervised. God forbid there child does get abducted, they sit & cannot understand why it happened to there child. To me that is just plain stupidity.

It seems that many are quick to talk about, and often blame, parents when it comes to child abductions--often to the point in which the obviously guilty party, the abductor him/herself, is completely neglected in the discussion. That's interesting. And, again, disturbing.

Ultimately, it isn't the parents' fault, it's the abductor's. That same logic is used to rationalize rape: "if she hadn't been out that late...", "if she hadn't been wearing that...", "if she hadn't been there..." I certainly don't intend to be insulting, but I find that reasoning completely irrational and unfair.

It seems that many are quick to talk about, and often blame, parents when it comes to child abductions--often to the point in which the obviously guilty party, the abductor him/herself, is completely neglected in the discussion. That's interesting. And, again, disturbing.

Ultimately, it isn't the parents' fault, it's the abductor's. That same logic is used to rationalize rape: "if she hadn't been out that late...", "if she hadn't been wearing that...", "if she hadn't been there..." I certainly don't intend to be insulting, but I find that reasoning completely irrational and unfair.

I think if anything we are overprotective and checking up on our kids constantly. I grew up in the late 70's and 80's and my parents never saw me until dark. No one I knew kept that close of an eye on their kids and we all managed to survive it. I know people will say it was a more innocent time, but I think that's completly wrong. There were kidnappings murders and serial killers then just like now. But I think with the news,newpapers etc...they have everyone worked up into a fever pitch thinking that a pedophile is going to grab your kid if they are even outside for a second alone. (not that it doesn't happen...look at poor Punky and she was with a friend, but its rare...really rare..)

Well said, Meg. This whole "let's blame the victims for their unfortunate fate" is idiotic.

If anyone is interested in hearing my story, here it is:

Last year, in late August, a friend and I (both of us women) went to a shopping mall/park out of the city limits. We thought it would be a fun thing to leave our car in the city and ride a transit shuttle bus to the park for the day.

We were there for about 4 and 1/2 hours, then we walked to the opening of the park, waiting for the bus to return. We were standing there for about 5 minutes, when a white van went by, turned around and came back to where we were. He was white, very clean cut, and was dressed very nicely. He asked us if we needed a ride, and not for one second did UM come into my mind, but I said, no thank you. He attempted to get out, and he seemed like he was going to talk to us, kept trying to convince us to catch a ride with him down the road. And I continued to say no, and then all those memories kept coming in my mind, Tara Calico, Angela Hammond, Jodi Hussientruit, Colleen Reed, Debra Poe etc. And finally, I told him to get out of here, and for the final time, we weren't interested. The look in this man's eyes, I swear, it was just empty. Well, he got into his car, very angrily, and threw a ROPE and duct tape in his back seat, and drove off. My friend and I started running back to the restaurant beside the bus stop and called the police. He has never been caught, but since he didn't technically try to kidnap us, there's nothing they could do anyways. But, there has been two unsolved rapes in that area as of current time.

So, there's some proof for you nay-sayers: evil or unlucky fate can happen ANYWHERE, ANYTIME. We were just lucky there was two men who walked by us as I was telling him off for the final time.

Hey folks,

Just gonna throw in my 2 cents

I 'm inclined to with SageSlowdive, in that

evil or unlucky fate can happen ANYWHERE, ANYTIME.

Here's an example:

In July 2003 in my city of Winnipeg, there was a super brutal murder at this particular hotel (that is host to many punk bands)

You can read the full story here (it's insane -even for Winnipeg):

http://mikeoncrime.com/article/12649/mcintyre-column-man-admits-dismemberment-slaying-pleads-not-guilty

Anyway, a friend of mine who worked at the hotel's bar worked that night of the slaying (And dismemberment).

Earlier that night, the murderer - Sidney Teerhuis, talked with my friend and asked him if he wanted to go upstairs to his room and have beers up there. My friend's description was that Teerhuis seemed like an okay dude and showed no signs of being a psycho or whatever - basically not a dangerous person; he seemed really friendly. My friend was actually gonna go upstairs and hang out with him for a bit but he had to meet his girlfriend at another bar.

Anyway, my finds out days later what happens and well... felt really, really damn lucky



HOWEVER, on the other hand- let's look at the UM case of Ann Coracelli - the woman from Peoria, IL who was a "psychic" and (To quote The Stack) was more in the business of "Fortune taking than fortune telling".

Now the people who went to her shoulda known better - I mean, I understand at the time, these folks were really sad and depressed and looking for answers to get back to a more stable life- but I mean, Come on!!

If you're gonna resort to that, well then you're kinda askin' for it



So yeah, I gotta say that bad things can happen to anyone, at anytime, anywhere, no matter how cautious one may be. Now, I'm not saying, like go wander around East St. Louis or Southside Chicago or wherever at 3 in the morning but sometimes life deals out unfortunate random circumstances and there's nothing anyone can really do about it, y'know?


Again, just my 2 cents

The below, entitled "Written by a Cop for Our Safety" was just forwarded to me. My comments follow:

Everyone should take 5 minutes to read this. It may save your life or a loved one's life.

In daylight hours, refresh yourself

of these things to do in an emergency situation...
This is for you, and for you to share with your wife, your children, & everyone you know.
After reading these 9 crucial tips, forward them to someone you care about. It never hurts to be careful in this crazy world we live in.

1. Tip from Tae Kwon Do:
The elbow is the strongest point on your body. If you are close enough to use it, do!

2. Learned this from a tourist guide.
If a robber asks for your wallet and/or purse,
DO NOT HAND IT TO HIM.
Toss it away from you.
Chances are that he is more interested in your wallet and/or purse than you, and he will go for the wallet/purse.
RUN LIKE MAD IN THE OTHER DIRECTION!

3. If you are ever thrown into the trunk of a car, kick out the back tail lights and stick your arm out the hole and start waving like crazy. The driver won't see you, but everybody else will. This has saved lives.

4. Women have a tendency to get into their cars after shopping, eating, working, etc., and just sit (doing their checkbook, or making a list, etc.)
DON'T DO THIS!
The predator will be watching you, and this is the perfect opportunity for him to get in on the passenger side, put a gun to your head, and tell you where to go.
AS SOON AS YOU GET INTO YOUR CAR,
LOCK THE DOORS AND LEAVE.

If someone is in the car with a gun to your head
DO NOT DRIVE OFF,
Repeat:
DO NOT DRIVE OFF!
Instead gun the engine and speed into anything, wrecking the car. Your Air Bag will save you. If the person is in the back seat they will get the worst of it. As soon as the car crashes bail out and run. It is better than having them find your body in a remote location.

5. A few notes about getting into your car in a parking lot, or parking garage:
A) Be aware: look around you, look into your car, at the passenger side floor , and in the back seat.
B) If you are parked next to a big van, enter your car from the passenger door. Most serial killers attack their victims by pulling them into their vans while the women are attempting to get into their cars.
C) Look at the car parked on the driver's side of your vehicle,
and the passenger side. If a male is sitting alone in the seat nearest your car, you may want to walk back into the mall, or work, and get a guard/policeman to walk you back out.
IT IS ALWAYS BETTER TO BE SAFE THAN SORRY. (And better paranoid than dead.)

6. ALWAYS take the elevator instead of the stairs. Stairwells are horrible places to be alone and the perfect crime spot. This is especially true at NIGHT!

7. If the predator has a gun and you are not under his control, ALWAYS RUN! The predator will only hit you (a running target) 4 in 100 times; and even then, it most likely WILL NOT be a vital organ. RUN, Preferably in a zig -zag pattern!

8. As women, we are always trying to be sympathetic.
STOP!
It may get you raped, or killed. Ted Bundy, the serial killer, was a good-looking, well-educated man, who ALWAYS played on the sympathies of unsuspecting women. He walked with a cane, or a limp, and often asked 'for help' into his vehicle or with his vehicle, which is when he abducted his next victim.

9. Another Safety Point:
Someone just told me that her friend heard a crying baby on her porch the night before last, and she called the police because it was late and she thought it was weird. The police told her, "Whatever you do, DO NOT open the door." The lady then said that it sounded like the baby had crawled near a window, and she was worried that it would crawl to the street and get run over. The policeman said," We already have a unit on the way, whatever you do, DO NOT open the door." He told her that they think a serial killer
has a baby's cry recorded and uses it to coax women out of their homes thinking that someone dropped off a baby. He said they have not verified it,
but have had several calls by women saying that they hear baby's cries outside their doors when they're home alone at night.

10. Water scam!
If you wake up in the middle of the night to hear all your taps outside running or what you think is a burst pipe, DO NOT GO OUT TO INVESTIGATE! These people turn on all your outside taps full blast so that you will go out to investigate and then attack.

Stay alert, keep safe, and look out for your neighbors!

Please pass this on.
This e-mail should probably be taken seriously because the Crying Baby Theory was mentioned on America 's Most Wanted when they profiled the serial killer in Louisiana.

I'd like you to forward this to all the women you know. It may save a life. A candle is not dimmed by lighting another candle. I was going to send this to the ladies only, but guys, if you love your mothers, wives, sisters, daughters, etc., you may want to pass it on to them, as well.

Send this to any woman you know who may need to be reminded that the world we live in has a lot of crazies in it and it's better to be safe than sorry.
_________________________________________________________________

Number 3: The Reader's Digest back in the late 1950s printed the story of this happening to a young married couple. The husband kept tools in the trunk and used one to wrench a corner off the trunk. Someone saw a bloody hand waving from the back of the car and managed to alert police, who saved the couple.

Number 5: All of us UM watchers should be well acquainted with warnings about vans, particularly white ones!

Number 6: This really surprised me. I had read in a children's book, (The Prince of Central Park, by Evan H. Rhodes, good story) if you live in a sleazy neighborhood (which J. J., the kid in the book, did) never take the elevator if you are alone. He did, was robbed, and ended up glad he wasn't wearing his Captain America sneakers. I also heard the advice elsewhere that if you should screw up and end up in the elevator alone with a bad guy, punch as many buttons as you can reach, starting with the Emergency if there is one.

Number 7: I hope this doesn't crack up too many people who saw the movie The In-Laws. If you saw it, remember: SERPENTINE!

Number 9: This has made the rounds before and been debunked at Snopes.com, which is not an unimpeachable source. Snopes.com said the crying baby scam has never happened to anybody anywhere. Can anyone verify if it really was mentioned on America's Most Wanted?

Snopes.com also said the story of a child being taken into a restroom at a large store, its hair cut and clothes changed to alter its appearance, and then removed from the store by an abductor, has never happened to anyone anywhere. I KNOW I saw a mother and daughter interviewed on a program, where this had happened to the girl. Unfortunately, I don't remember the name of the program, their names, or when or where it happened, (except it was in the U. S. somewhere) but I will never forget that little girl. She was eight and was in tears remembering this terrifying experience from when she was three. NO WAY were they lying or faking, and why would the program interview them without looking into the story first? (Since five years had passed, there was plenty of time to check.) Extra points if anyone can identify this story!

Snopes.com also said the story of a baby in a wrecked car being saved by the ghost of its mother had never happened to anyone anywhere. I sent them the details of the Unsolved Mysteries story on this, including names, dates, locations, etc. Don't know if they ever corrected their site. *

Number 10: This was used by that woman (Margaret Ray?) who stalked David Letterman and a couple of other people. She used it to get Astronaut Storey F. Musgrave out of his house and it worked. She was more a danger to herself than anyone else, though.

*By the way, there's a phenomenon, and I think even a word, for when an urban legend exists first, and then later something in real life happens resembling it. So it's possible some version of this story existed before this mysterious event. Still, I'd like to see it noted.

Hmm....

1) Most of the "bad guys" that you are going to meet are, unfortunately, family members, friends or acquaintances. Since there's no way you "plan" against that, it's necessary, IMHO, to be skeptical and careful in your dealings w/ most people, whether you know them or not.

2) While I don't think that you should walk around "prepping" for what you should do if you are abducted or become the victim of violent crime, I do think that most people need some type of plan for the possibilities of being lost, injured or becoming ill. Those situations are far more likely to occur and they usually require the same or similar skill sets as being involved in a crime.

3) IMHO, most people rarely report encounters w/ criminals because a) They were doing something that they shouldn't have been doing or don't want people to know that they do when alone or in private. b) They simply want to "forget" what happened to them c) The "bad guy" is someone that they don't want to "get in trouble."

This under-reporting or non-reporting of crime is why most criminals get away w/ their activities and I believe that they are emboldened by the fact that the majority of their criminal acts will never result in any form of punishment.

4) While "blaming the victim or the family" is almost always counter-productive, understanding why a rare event (like an abduction) occurred is necessary to solve a crime and to locate an offender. That understanding may come from a realistic view of the victim (why was he/she where they were at when the crime occurred), developing a detailed background knowledge of the victim's lifestyle and habits and by honestly and non-judgmentally questioning family and friends (including offenders.)

I think that people's fear of offending people and their desire to avoid seeming to "blame" a victim interferes w/ finding an offender, arresting and prosecuting them and removing them from society. Doing that, iMHO, should be given an equal amount of "weight" as being concerned for the victim does.

You know, whenever anyone debates the "coulda/shoulda/woulda" about what a victim in a UM segment could have done to avoid being kidnapped or murdered, I think of one name: Matt Flores. Here was a guy who was shot to death in what you'd think would be one of the most safest locations imaginable: an outdoor workplace parking lot in broad daylight when there were many other people around. Yet someone still managed to murder him without being seen and has gotten away with the perfect crime.

If you believe his friends and family that this guy didn't have any skeletons in his closet to make someone want to kill him, then there was absolutely NOTHING he could have done to prevent what happened! The same argument could also be applied to the likes of Doug Johnston or the first Mary Morris, who may have been murdered simply because a hitman made a mistake. I always think of these segments and realize that sometimes it's just fate when bad things happen to people and that all the precautions and common sense in the world won't save you, and that trying to blame victims or their acquaintances for their wrong decisions is often futile.

I know this is pretty depressing to think about, but we live in a crazy world with many sick people. Yes, it's important to be aware of your surroundings but there are times that you can become a victim despite how safe you play it. Lisa Ziegert's mother brought this up in her segment. She said life isn't always fair. You have to be extra careful but sometimes even when you're extra careful, it doesn't matter.

I'm not a fan of this blaming the victim issue either. Many of the poor folks featured in segments were mainly victims of different time periods. Bobbie Oberholtzer and Annette Schnee were murdered because they hitchhiked home. But this was 1982 in the small towns of Colorado. EVERYONE hitchhiked. That's how people got to know each other back then. Both ladies were simply doing the same thing they had done a million times.

Likewise with Angela Hammond. She lived in a small town and simply went to a payphone at night. It wasn't even that late. This was something she had done countless times. The last thing she would have expected was some nut pulling in to the parking lot and kidnapping her.

Gretchen Burford's killer snuck in to her car while she was withdrawing money from an ATM. The killer was able to do this because Gretchen left her car unlocked. I grew up in the 80's and 90's and I remember my parents did the same thing all the time. They never locked their cars. Neither did my neighbors.

Debra Poe was working the graveyard shift because she had two full time jobs. When else was she supposed to work? I don't blame her working a night shift for her fate as much as I blame the stupid convenience store for not having security cameras. You'd think all convenience stores would have them by the 90's.

I agree with the folks who said it all comes down to fate. Being in the wrong place at the wrong time will do you in. And unless you're a psychic, there's no way you can prevent being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Look at Joyce McLain. All she was doing was running laps on her high school soccer field. How was she to know that would end up killing her?

It is important to practice safety and be cautious but there are some things you have no control over. Plain and simple.

While Matthew Chase's decision to go to the ATM at night in LA was dumb, it still didn't mean he knew there could be lurking danger. He should have had someone come with him, I understand that point.

But, what about Angela Hammond? She didn't have to stop at that pay phone, she wanted too. By the simple twist of fate, a kidnapper happened to be driving by her, and Lincoln was such a small town on top of that.

Again, the bottom line comes down to fate. Not everyone will be kidnapped/raped/murdered/robbed unless you were meant to be. I lived in one of the worst neighborhoods in one of the biggest cities in the country once, and while I was very cautious of the area, I was never once harmed or threatened by anyone.

As I was often told, "When it's your time, it's your time."
My late grandfather (I never got to meet him) used to say something to the effect of, "When the man upstairs calls you, there could be a dozen of the world's best doctors around you but ir wouldn't matter because when it's your time to go, it's your time to go."

By the way, from all the mentions of her, two in this thread alone, it really seems like Angela Hammond is the "most missed" of all the UM victims. Her case is what got me into UM as well...I hope wherever she is, if there is a Heaven, I hope she is comforted to know that people (besides her family and the police of course) still care after all this time. It's going to be 20 years on April 4th.

While I do think that the world is random (that events occur that have no connection to anything else and also occur w/o a "reason") I don't subscribe to "if it's going to happen, it's going to happen" line of logic.I don't think that most of the cases portrayed on Unsolved Mysteries were shown to random acts beyond the fact that people that they happened to ran into the killer(s) that most people do not.

Most of the people on UM (or their parents if they were children) made conscience and, unfortunately, poor decisions about how they were going to live their lives. From driving alone in a remote area and stopping at night, to taking an unnecessary shortcut, to going off alone w/ strangers, to using drugs and/or alcohol to excess and even spending time w/ known criminals or deranged people.

The overwhelming majority of people are never the victims of violent crime despite what's portrayed in the media. The few that are unfortunately are the victims of crime perpetrated against them by family, friends or acquaintances. The rest, a rather small group in comparison, are targeted by strangers in either planned or random attacks.

But even in those attacks, a pattern (or patterns) can be seen: The person was distracted;they noticed their attacker, but did nothing to leave the area or create a disturbance that would have frightened the attacker way;they had no means to contact others if they were in trouble and no plan on how to do so; They were impaired by alcohol or drug use; they got lost due unfamiliarity w/ the area that they decided to travel in or decided to do something that could have waited until it was easier and safer to do it.

The bottom line is that random acts of violence (outside of a family setting) are very rare and most people will never be the victims of them. However, a brief plan (or plans) on how to handle emergencies, would, IMO, prevent the majority of them from occurring or would at least mitigate the damage they cause.

I'm sorry but I have seen many incidents in my lifetime that if people would have used more common sense the bad things that did happen to them probably would not have happened.

Perfect example, look at all the child abductions that we hear about all the time. Kids walking to the store by themselves, playing outside by themselves, etc. Other parents see & hear these stories yet they still let there child go walking somewhere by themselves or out to play unsupervised. God forbid there child does get abducted, they sit & cannot understand why it happened to there child. To me that is just plain stupidity.

And there in lies the problem. I was born in 1980. Throughout the 1990s my friends and I did nothing but play sports. We'd walk to ball diamonds, we'd play hockey on the street, at a school, we went on Halloween without our parents. I rode my bike constantly everywhere and anywhere. I once walked around a baseball stadium when I was 11 years old in Philadelphia after the game was over because I wanted to explore. My parents stayed in their seats knowing I would come back. I did. I walked to school up until high school (when I took the bus). I'd have been afraid of getting beaten up if my friends saw me with my mom or sister walking me to school. Again, I survived.

My point is life doesn't and shouldn't stop just because another child is abducted. We don't need to live in a world of teflon. I was a smart enough kid to know what areas not to enter, or when I had a bad intuition about something, or when it got dark at a certain time. I never ran into a criminal. Not in the woods, not on the streets not ever. The worst thing (thank God) that happened to me was getting my hat stolen right off of my head as I walked home from school. A guy on a bike did it. It was a Chicago Bulls hat!

My point is, it is extremely remote to run into an abductor.

Snopes.com also said the story of a baby in a wrecked car being saved by the ghost of its mother had never happened to anyone anywhere. I sent them the details of the Unsolved Mysteries story on this, including names, dates, locations, etc. Don't know if they ever corrected their site. *

*By the way, there's a phenomenon, and I think even a word, for when an urban legend exists first, and then later something in real life happens resembling it. So it's possible some version of this story existed before this mysterious event. Still, I'd like to see it noted.

Well, I see the site hasn't been updated. http://www.snopes.com/horrors/ghosts/rescue.asp

By the way, a prose version of the story about the little girl fetching the doctor was one of my mom's favorites. I believe it appeared in the book Strange People by Frank Edwards, all of which were presented as true. In that version, the girl was wearing a shawl out on a snowy night. When the doctor described the girl to the mother, she was able to direct him to the shawl, which hung in a closet, perfectly dry.

I have a few little tidbits to add to this discussion. First, while it's not a bad idea to use common sense, I think it's also important to remember the kind of things you see on UM are generally extremely rare, isolated incidents. Most people probably have a better chance of winning the lottery than of being the victim of a crime like this. But as human beings, we naturally become cautious when we learn of things like this happening and want to make sure it doesn't happen to us.

Take the trend of school shootings that happened in the mid to late '90s. Our natural reaction is to think this is happening too often, which it was, but think about it - how many millions of kids go to school every day, day in and day out, without something like that happening to them?

Anyway, as to the topic, there was a time when I was a kid that I may have been approached by a would-be kidnapper. I grew up in a dinky little town (population about 4,000) and my folks thought nothing of letting me go back and forth to my best friend's house. Most of the year I would take my bike, but in winter I had to walk. Well, one night I was headed over there when a man in a car pulled up and asked how to get to the high school. I told him, but I stayed far enough away from the car because that was one of the things they told us to do when we talked to strangers. I don't recall if he actually tried to get me to get into the car or anything. He may have taken a little longer than usual to get directions from me but then again, I never was much good at things like that. ;) After a minute or so he drove off. Who knows? He probably was just someone from out of town trying to find the high school.

Some years later, I was visiting my brother in Austin, Texas, when we stopped to get gas. I went in to get a soda or something, and when I came back my brother was talking to some guy; then he asked me if I'd mind riding in the back seat because we were going to give this guy a ride somewhere (I can't remember where anymore, though I want to say it was to a hospital because he said a baby had just been born, though I can't recall if it was his or his sister's.)

Anyway, we gave this guy a lift, and he told us how he was trying to get to Amarillo for some reason (actually, maybe that's where the newborn was?) Well we wound up going to a motel first so this guy could get his stuff. He went up to a room, and while we were waiting, I suggested that we just get the heck out of there because while the guy was nice enough, the whole situation just seemed fishy. But my brother refused, saying how he was tired of how no one was ever willing to help anyone else out, etc. After a few minutes the guy came back without any luggage or anything, but with five or six CDs. :confused: We drove some more and finally ended up dropping this guy off at a convenience store in a neighborhood that probably wasn't a safe place to be in. He gave each of us one of the CDs as a "thank you", and I still have it on my shelf.

So we drove off and I said to bro, "You know, you probably just made us accessories to a drug deal." He said I was probably right, but he just wanted to help a guy out, blah blah blah. Needless to say, when I got home I didn't mention that part of the trip to our folks.

Finally, there was an incident just a few years ago that still freaks me out when I think about it, even though I was never really in any danger. At the time I was working as a reporter for a small town newspaper, and every week I went to the police station to go over the log book. Well one week I went in there and I could tell something was going on. Sure enough, the first report I read was about a guy who had told the cops that he had been out with a couple other guys, and one of these guys killed the other one and threatened to kill him as well! (The investigators later questioned how much the guy who reported it was really a victim or was involved with it as well, but I won't get into that here.)

Anyway, what freaked me out was that the guy who was reporting all this lived just a few doors down from me, and apparently they had driven past my house after the murder, and that was where the killer threatened to kill him too if he said anything. If I had been awake I may even have heard it, because it was summer and I had my bedroom window open. (However this was at 3 or 4 in the morning, and I sleep like I'm in a coma.)

Anyway, as to the topic, there was a time when I was a kid that I may have been approached by a would-be kidnapper. I grew up in a dinky little town (population about 4,000) and my folks thought nothing of letting me go back and forth to my best friend's house. Most of the year I would take my bike, but in winter I had to walk. Well, one night I was headed over there when a man in a car pulled up and asked how to get to the high school. I told him, but I stayed far enough away from the car because that was one of the things they told us to do when we talked to strangers. I don't recall if he actually tried to get me to get into the car or anything. He may have taken a little longer than usual to get directions from me but then again, I never was much good at things like that. ;) After a minute or so he drove off. Who knows? He probably was just someone from out of town trying to find the high school.


The best bet is that he was an innocent out of towner. However I didn't catch your age at that time. If you were 5-10 years old I would wonder why an adult would stop and ask you of all people. If you were a teenager I can understand a bit more, but still when an adult needs help, they should ask an adult. I know I would and it has nothing to do with looking like a potential kidnapper. I would likely trust the directions of an adult over a kid. So yeah if you are in single digits I would say that was a BIG warning flag of a potential abductor

interesting responses everyone. I just think, no question bad guys exist and that bad things happen to people, but i think, and as much as i love UM, even it, and the media have contributed to this, i believe false idea, of a world full of dangerous people. thats the reason for my original post.

In all honesty, if I was like kristi krebs and all alone in some desolate forest, late at night, i would be scared as hell, nearly everyone would be. But why is that? Why do we fear being in some remote location in the dark, or anywhere in the dark for that matter? It seems to me bad things happen all day and night long, and its not like bad things only happen as it darkens outside.

i think the media has alot to do with it. and even someone who hates the media buys into it, i wouldnt want to be stuck in some forest at midnight. but why? Isnt noon in a middle class neighborhood just as dangerous a place and time and location?

interesting responses everyone. I just think, no question bad guys exist and that bad things happen to people, but i think, and as much as i love UM, even it, and the media have contributed to this, i believe false idea, of a world full of dangerous people. thats the reason for my original post.

In all honesty, if I was like kristi krebs and all alone in some desolate forest, late at night, i would be scared as hell, nearly everyone would be. But why is that? Why do we fear being in some remote location in the dark, or anywhere in the dark for that matter? It seems to me bad things happen all day and night long, and its not like bad things only happen as it darkens outside.

i think the media has alot to do with it. and even someone who hates the media buys into it, i wouldnt want to be stuck in some forest at midnight. but why? Isnt noon in a middle class neighborhood just as dangerous a place and time and location?

You'd be more likely to be eaten by a bear 10 times over than attacked by a murderer in the woods at night.

I sent the above warning which was forwarded to me by email to a police officer friend who said in 28 years of law enforcement in various communities he has never heard any complaints like any of the above.

You'd be more likely to be eaten by a bear 10 times over than attacked by a murderer in the woods at night.

You are more likely to break a bone, contract Lyme disease or die of exposure than be eaten by a bear. So being attacked by a killer in the woods almost certainly isn't going to happen.

Still a good idea to take a firearm w/ you.

You are more likely to break a bone, contract Lyme disease or die of exposure than be eaten by a bear. So being attacked by a killer in the woods almost certainly isn't going to happen.


Exactly. But the imagination is a powerful thing. Even a rest stop, what are the odds anything will happen to you? I would put it at less than 0.1% considering how many people go to rest stops and that includes a petty theft or a tire slash or whatever. All of the sudden we see a car pull into the parking lot (probably to use the bathroom too) and we assume it's Ted Bundy

Exactly. But the imagination is a powerful thing. Even a rest stop, what are the odds anything will happen to you? I would put it at less than 0.1% considering how many people go to rest stops and that includes a petty theft or a tire slash or whatever. All of the sudden we see a car pull into the parking lot (probably to use the bathroom too) and we assume it's Ted Bundy

My concerns about stopping at a rest stop would be injury from something other than criminal activity, robbery (especially at night) and frankly being subjected to definitely unwanted sexual advances in a remote area w/ few ,if any, other people around.While only one of those things has happened to me at a rest stop (I'll let you guess which one) I still don't stop at them as there are many more places to stop that have clean restrooms, food and gas. They are also usually well-lit and have a number of people around if I decide to take a nap.

I don't worry about serial killers as I'm not a member of any of the groups usually targeted by most killers and I know from research and past history that encountering a serial killer is slightly more likely than being in an airplane crash. In other words, it's not going to happen.

The best bet is that he was an innocent out of towner. However I didn't catch your age at that time.

Actually I don't even remember, but I'm guessing it was when I was still in grade school... probably somewhere between 11 and 13.

Actually I don't even remember, but I'm guessing it was when I was still in grade school... probably somewhere between 11 and 13.


Well who knows. Not that it matters but are you male or female? Obviously BOTH types of pedophiles are on the loose but I'm just asking.