Throughout the history of the show, there are certain aspects of cases that are not completely revealed, yet are still alluded to either by Stack, or someone during an interview (an investigator), or even an update, yet we are not privy to everything.

I thought it might be interesting to compile a list of such vague clues as well as speculation as to what this information might be, and why it was withheld in the first place.

- The new evidence unearthed by the show that led to Tim McClure's arrest for the murder of his mother.

- The contents of the "Spot in the Road" letter and how they pertained to Tommy Gibson's disappearance.

- The new evidence that led to Steve Shores' exoneration for Garrison Hester's murder.

- The details of the torture done to Jay Cook that indicated to authorities that the killer was probably an ex-con.

My thoughts

- Since McClure was never convicted for the murder of his mother, the new information may have been withheld to protect his privacy. This new information allegedly came to light during a rebroadcast of the show on Lifetime. I think it's reasonable to assume that a viewer who was in or around the area at the time of Terri McClure's death may have seen something that contradicted Tim's alibi or a statement he made on the program.

- I believe Meg once theorized that "Spot on the Road" could have been a neighbor of the Gibsons and given their unique vantage point, may have seen something that would have proved crucial to the investigation (this would fit with the author's unique pseudonym). The letter could also have been written by a family member who heard a statement made by the Gibsons.

- No clue on Shores. The update was on Spike so they just might not have cared to look into the circumstances too deeply.

- Prisoners have limited access to basic utensils and items that could potentially be turned into weapons. Perhaps the torture was done crudely with a common object. The info was probably withheld to weed out false confessions or red herrings should a viable suspect turn up at some point.

Any thoughts?

I find it interesting that UM disclosed Dick Hansen was an addicted drug user...

Throughout the history of the show, there are certain aspects of cases that are not completely revealed, yet are still alluded to either by Stack, or someone during an interview (an investigator), or even an update, yet we are not privy to everything.

I thought it might be interesting to compile a list of such vague clues as well as speculation as to what this information might be, and why it was withheld in the first place.

Great thread topic. I'm excited to see what responses we all come up with.

The contents of the "Spot in the Road" letter and how they pertained to Tommy Gibson's disappearance.

- The details of the torture done to Jay Cook that indicated to authorities that the killer was probably an ex-con.

Those two were the very first things that popped into my head when I saw the thread title.



- I would like to know much more about the briefly mentioned suspect in the Rebecca Young case. Virtually all we know about the man was that he was overheard bragging that he'd "killed a black woman." I know the police must have better reason than that to believe he may have been responsible for her murder.

- What exactly was found in "Loren's" apartment that may implicate him in the murders of Marie Lillienburg and Maria Wahlen.

- This may not fit neatly into this category as it wasn't a piece of verbally stated information, but I've always wondered why the male suspect composite in the Roxann Jeeves/Kristopher Korper case was drawn with a hand in front of his mouth.

- Possibly completely unrelated to the case as a whole, but A) why was Kaitlyn Arquette's boyfriend's name never revealed (he was called "Kaitlyn's boyfriend" through the entire segment), and B) for what reason were his friends constantly "making fun of her"?

Also: what about Holly Krewson's skeletal remains led investigators to believe she was murdered, and why won't they release that information? It seems many people with the most basic knowledge of forensic examination know that certain breakages or nicks in the bones can indicate the manner of death--isn't that a rather common fact?

What information did the police have that led them to believe that the two Mary Morris murders weren't connected? They also (sensibly) held back the second Mary Morris' 911 call.

UM refrained from mentioning what chemical Joseph Maloney poisoned his wife with. My guess being that it was thallium sulfate or something similar that would have been in a chemistry lab set of that era.

Rae Ann Mossor's boyfriend was never mentioned by name, nor was there any mention if he or or the witnesses were contacted by UM.

As far as Deborah Poe, UM made no mention of her boyfriend (who apparently saw her at 1 am, and a different friend was the last person to see her). Interesting, as he seems to be the person police are now focusing on.

In the Loretta Myers disappearance, I found it bizarre that they provided zero information about the con artist "husband" that disappeared with her. Loretta's son interacted with him several times and even though he probably didn't reveal his real name, I'd think he would have at least provided a first name. And even though I'm sure no photograph of him existed, I have no idea why UM didn't provide a composite sketch or a physical description.

I understand that for legal reasons, UM can't always provide information about suspects, but this guy was a missing person who was clearly taking advantage of a confused old woman and could potentially endanger her life. If they provide a description of him, it only increases their chances of finding her. Thankfully, Loretta was eventually found unharmed, but we never did find out anything about this guy.

Likewise, in the disappearance of Lisa Bishop and the Freedom, I found it weird that they briefly mentioned that the Haitian crew of the boat were also missing, but didn't provide ANY info about them. They may not have been the main focus on the story, but they're still human beings, and even if they were directly responsible for Lisa's disappearance, finding them only increases the chances of finding her.

UM never revealed that Angelo Desideri was a drug dealer before he was killed.

In the Loretta Myers disappearance, I found it bizarre that they provided zero information about the con artist "husband" that disappeared with her. Loretta's son interacted with him several times and even though he probably didn't reveal his real name, I'd think he would have at least provided a first name. And even though I'm sure no photograph of him existed, I have no idea why UM didn't provide a composite sketch or a physical description.

I understand that for legal reasons, UM can't always provide information about suspects, but this guy was a missing person who was clearly taking advantage of a confused old woman and could potentially endanger her life. If they provide a description of him, it only increases their chances of finding her. Thankfully, Loretta was eventually found unharmed, but we never did find out anything about this guy.

Likewise, in the disappearance of Lisa Bishop and the Freedom, I found it weird that they briefly mentioned that the Haitian crew of the boat were also missing, but didn't provide ANY info about them. They may not have been the main focus on the story, but they're still human beings, and even if they were directly responsible for Lisa's disappearance, finding them only increases the chances of finding her.

Kind of like the kid who dissapeared along with Clifford Sherwood.

UM never revealed that Angelo Desideri was a drug dealer before he was killed.

Dam! I don't even remember that from the update!

But it makes sense, otherwise why would hoods like Joe Kello and James Majors be interested in killing him?

You are right though, the broadcast portrayed him as an unassuming old Christian man who never did anything to anyone. Surprising to learn he was a drug dealer.

I was unaware of this. May I ask where you got this information from? It's very interesting and if true it definitely sheds some light into motive. The broadcast made it sound like they targeted him randomly.

Kind of like the kid who dissapeared along with Clifford Sherwood.

Also, the unsolved murder of the kid named Eugene which was briefly mentioned at the end of the Kurt Sova segment. And the other boy who was burned in the shack with Scott Johnson who never even had his name mentioned on the broadcast (though I'm guessing UM just couldn't secure permission from the boy's family).

Interesting topic. I too have always wondered about the letter from "spot in the road" in the Tommy Gibson case. I would also like to read the entire contents of the letter of Tom Roche's killer to see if it divulged any more information.

Some others I would add are:

I wish UM would have been more forthcoming in the Mikki Jo West segment. I understand why they couldn't have mentioned the killer's name as it appeared in the letters but they could have told us the man whose name appeared in the letters just happened to be the suspect they mentioned and it was his marital dispute that Mikki was in the middle of.

The letter written by Keith Reinhard to his wife shortly before he disappeared should have been mentioned. It seem to indicate that he was ready to conquer his fear and try and climb the mountain again but it seems that UM just wanted to slant the story to make it seem like something more sinister happened.

I think if UM had mentioned all the accusations of the shady dealings with Tammy that her mother was involved in it would have given more credence to the possibility of her running away. I'm really starting to lean towards that with everything I've learned.

They should have portrayed Ed Walters (Gulf Breeze UFO's) like the nutjob he really was instead of giving him the attention he so much wanted.

I would have liked them to mention more about the gun used in Rae Ann Mossor's death, most importantly who it belonged to.

They should have mentioned a possible connection in the Charlie Anderson murder and the murder of Carol Montecalvo since UM profiled both cases.

I think they left a lot out in the Leonard Dirickson case we've still yet to find out. His case just doesn't add up.

I'm currently reading the book about Danny Paquette's murder and there is A LOT in his case UM left out. They portray him in a positive light whereas the book doesn't at all. Basically say he was a child molester that raped his stepdaughter and many people who knew who killed him and kept it quiet for years thought he got what he deserved. This is completely different from how UM portrayed him. Also while I'm on the topic, they do talk about Rena Paquette's murder and there's little doubt that she was murdered by the same man who killed those two young girls. His mother had confided to Rena that she thought he did it (seemingly wanting Rena to go to the authorities because she couldn't bring herself to) so Rena did go to the cops and she had an argument with Edward Coolidge shortly before she was found burned to death in a pigsty on her property that Coolidge is thought to have killed one of the girls at. They only bothered to try him for one of the murders and I believe there was a problem with something in his case and he was released from prison 5 years ago. Another fact that UM didn't mention is that semen was found in Rena Paquette but police didn't bother testing it or even asking her husband about it.

Two more things that weren't really relative to the cases but I think would have given even more sympathy to the victims that UM didn't mention was that Angela Hammond was pregnant and Gretchen Burford was a newlywed when she was murdered.

Just to clarify some of the earlier posts, I don't believe UM ever mentioned Dick Hansen's drug use or that Angelo Desidari was a drug dealer. I think those are things people learned in their internet searches and articles on the cases.

Someone mentioned in a newspaper article on the case, Dick was addicted to some sort of drug (I'm guessing something hard like cocaine or crack), and he could have possibly known his killer.

I think if UM had mentioned all the accusations of the shady dealings with Tammy that her mother was involved in it would have given more credence to the possibility of her running away. I'm really starting to lean towards that with everything I've learned.



Crystaldawn,
Just curious, is this the Tammi Lynn Leppert case that you're referring to here?

Thanks,
Charli-Ann

Crystaldawn,
Just curious, is this the Tammi Lynn Leppert case that you're referring to here?

Thanks,
Charli-Ann

Yes, thats the one.

"Also, the unsolved murder of the kid named Eugene which was briefly mentioned at the end of the Kurt Sova segment."

I've heard two theories about Eugene Kvett's death: 1. he fell into the ravine 2. some Cleveland/Newburgh Heights-area gang that was running around at the time might have pushed or threw him into the ravine.

Another fact that UM didn't mention is that semen was found in Rena Paquette but police didn't bother testing it or even asking her husband about it. .

Wow, that means this is definitely another case that could be added to the "Worst Police Blunders" thread. I've always wondered how the police could have possibly thought that she committed suicide by setting herself on a fire in a barn that was a mile from her house.

Two more things that weren't really relative to the cases but I think would have given even more sympathy to the victims that UM didn't mention was that Angela Hammond was pregnant and Gretchen Burford was a newlywed when she was murdered.

Just to clarify some of the earlier posts, I don't believe UM ever mentioned Dick Hansen's drug use or that Angelo Desidari was a drug dealer. I think those are things people learned in their internet searches and articles on the cases.

I'm not sure UM left out more details about a victim to make them seem more sympathetic than with Judge Leland Geiler, who was bilked out of nearly everything he owned by Andolina Gonzalez. Judge Geiler had quite a tumultous history and was actually impeached as a Superior Court judge for many cases of sexual misconduct:
http://cjp.ca.gov/userfiles/file/Notice_FP/Geiler_1-21-72.pdf

Now, of course, his shady history had nothing to do with the UM case and he certainly didn't deserve what happened to him, but I'm sure there are quite a few people who aren't too sorry that Judge Geiler met with this fate.

Another fact that UM didn't mention is that semen was found in Rena Paquette but police didn't bother testing it or even asking her husband about it.

Unless I missed something, that's probably because it was either previously withheld from the press or wasn't discovered until Rena's body was exhumed in 1991, after the original 1990 broadcast of the segment.

Some good contributions from everyone.

Just thought of another factoid omitted by UM, but for obvious reasons - the chemical concoction used by a professional arsonist in a series of fires in the Pacific Northwest. The specific combination of chemicals caused the fires to burn hotter, spread faster, and be resistant to water. Stack mentioned that investigators discovered the contents of the mixture after conducting numerous experiments, but were keeping it a secret.

The presentation of the Angelo Desidari case was strange. In retrospect, I wonder just how much the police knew about Angelo's dealings at the time of the original broadcast that they withheld. Even the update on the arrest of James Majors and Joe Callo for Angelo's murder was extremely vague with regard to the motive. IIRC, it was speculated that these men planned to rob Angelo because it was rumored he had a lot of cash and jewelry. Uh-huh.

I'm pretty sure that it was disclosed that the letters discovered pertaining to Mikki Jo West's murder did name the man who was already a suspect. I watched the story semi-recently, but it was a tape of the original broadcast, so maybe Lifetime cut it.

Okay, I'm not sure if this is a case of UM withholding information or a suspect just being full of crap, but did Jule Caylor ever provide an explanation to the police about where Dottie was going on that train and what the purpose of her trip was?

You'd think that if he was going to drive his agoraphobic reclusive wife to the station to go on a trip by herself for the first time in ages, he'd at least find out from her where she was going. Even if he never drove her there and was responsible for her disappearance, you'd think that Jule would at least provided some false information about where she was going in order to lend plausibility to his story.

I've always wondered if UM deliberately withheld the full details of her so-called trip in order not to hamper the investigation.

I'm pretty sure that it was disclosed that the letters discovered pertaining to Mikki Jo West's murder did name the man who was already a suspect. I watched the story semi-recently, but it was a tape of the original broadcast, so maybe Lifetime cut it.

It was. I have the Lifetime version as well as the update, and it was all definitely disclosed there.

Just thought of another factoid omitted by UM, but for obvious reasons - the chemical concoction used by a professional arsonist in a series of fires in the Pacific Northwest. The specific combination of chemicals caused the fires to burn hotter, spread faster, and be resistant to water. Stack mentioned that investigators discovered the contents of the mixture after conducting numerous experiments, but were keeping it a secret.

Obviously, they didn't want to give potential arsonists any ideas.

The presentation of the Angelo Desidari case was strange. In retrospect, I wonder just how much the police knew about Angelo's dealings at the time of the original broadcast that they withheld. Even the update on the arrest of James Majors and Joe Callo for Angelo's murder was extremely vague with regard to the motive. IIRC, it was speculated that these men planned to rob Angelo because it was rumored he had a lot of cash and jewelry. Uh-huh.

The cops might have known or suspected that Angelo was involved in drugs, but lacked the evidence to justify publicly releasing that information. But there may have been another factor: It is entirely possible that there was some legitimate concern - especially among those close to Angelo - that any mention of Angelo's possible drug connections would make the viewers think so negatively of him that they would become apathetic about his well-being and/or whereabouts.

I could be wrong about that, but it's worth considering.

The cops might have known or suspected that Angelo was involved in drugs, but lacked the evidence to justify publicly releasing that information. But there may have been another factor: It is entirely possible that there was some legitimate concern - especially among those close to Angelo - that any mention of Angelo's possible drug connections would make the viewers think so negatively of him that they would become apathetic about his well-being and/or whereabouts.

I could be wrong about that, but it's worth considering.

I think you've probably hit the nail on the head. The family wanted to know what had happened to him and probably thought that drugs would cause viewers not to worry about him as much as mention of his piousness and seemingly exemplary career- this could have certainly impeded viewer tips and aid.

Whatever it is leading police to believe that Wil Hendrick was murdered, despite not being able to determine a cause of death...and also what leads them to believe that he knew the attacker

Just watched the Mary Morris segment where 2 women named Mary Morris who live in the same area and look similar are murdered within 3 days. Curious about them withholding the 911 recording. Most police don't use the "it's too disturbing" excuse to withhold the recording of a 911 tape. Especially if it could help solve a case.

Just watched the Mary Morris segment where 2 women named Mary Morris who live in the same area and look similar are murdered within 3 days. Curious about them withholding the 911 recording. Most police don't use the "it's too disturbing" excuse to withhold the recording of a 911 tape. Especially if it could help solve a case.

I think they withheld the tape because she potentially named names and being an ongoing investigation, the police didn't want to hinder the investigation. As for information that was withheld by UM, I wish there were more details disclosed about the deaths of Diana Robertson, Stephen Harkins, and Ruth Cooper (and potential links to Mike Riemer). And the segment about the Freedon when they blatantly ignore the fate of the entire crew besides Florian and Lisa. And I can't remember the name of the child who was killed (I think it was Scott), but it happened in Arizona and he and a friend were murdered in an abandoned copper shack by being burned to death. UM never mentioned anything about his friend. Also, in just about every missing persons/murder segment, UM never presents the darker side to the missing/murdered people (Dick Hansen's drug problem, Angelo Desidari being a drug dealer, Pamela June Ray spending money that wasn't hers, etc.) which could potentially help solve their murder/disappearance.

Just read an article about Pond and Gaddis (the last UM case). I know it was solved quickly, but to be honest, it should have been solved even faster than it was, with the suspect having been a suspect in the beginning and having already attempted to attack one of the girls. UM withheld this and his suspicious behavior as well as the pain endured by one of the girls in the past. The killer's prior behavior should have had them know from the beginning, espcially with both girls being connected to him already. I'm glad the sick bastard is in jail for life. The case was too short in its profile on UM in my opinion and more should have been presented.

Here is an article I found about it. Very tragic case.

On a stormy winter morning, Ashley Pond, 12, a seventh-grader at Gardiner Middle School, left her South Beavercreek Road apartment complex in Oregon City, OR about 8 a.m. on Jan. 9, 2002, for the school bus stop. Ashley did not make it to school.

It had been a rough year for Ashley and she carried around more pain in her short life than any child should. On January 5, 2001, just over a year before Ashley disappeared, her biological father, Wesley Roettger, Jr., was indicted on 40 counts of raping and sexually abusing her for over 4 years. The following March, Ashley told a friend that two men were molesting her. That same spring, Ashley's reading teacher, Linda Virden, at Gaffney Lane Elementary School, reported to the principal, Chris Mills, that Ward Weaver, 39, kissed Ashley on the lips when he dropped her off at school. Then in June and July Ashley joined Ward, his girlfriend, Tammy Place, her 8-year-old daughter, and Mallori, Weaver's 10-year-old daughter, on a two-week vacation to California. Then Ashley began living at their home. In early August: Ashley accused Ward of molesting her and moved out. Ashley told her reading teacher that Ward threatened to testify against her in her father's rape trial.

After learning of Ashley's allegations against Ward, Clackamas County deputy district attorney Chris Owen reported the child abuse to a hotline on August. 31st. The hotline report was forwarded to child welfare workers on Sept. 5th. Virden also called the child welfare office to report that Ashley told her that Ward abused her, tried to rape her, and threatened to testify against her. September 6, deputy district attorney, Owen, dropped all 40 counts against Roettger, who plead “no contest” to attempted unlawful sexual penetration. He was sentenced to 120 months probation.

Things seemed to be improving for Ashley that fall. During October and November, she seemed happier and more outgoing. However, a caseworker told police that child welfare received many calls about her and her family from concerned neighbors. That Christmas Ashley told her family she was afraid of Ward.

On January 9 2002, Ashley disappeared.

Police interviewed Weaver and his daughter, Mallori, the following day.

"Ward Weaver said he felt sorry for Ashley and tried to help her as much as he could, but then she accused him of touching her, and that was it," Viola Valenzuela-Garcia, Oregon City Detective reported.

Clackamas County sheriff's deputy Marty Neiman, a dog handler, searched the property around Ward Weaver's house; on Jan. 19th with a search dog, but Ward refused to allow them to search inside his home.

Two months after Ashley's disappearance, on March 8, 2002, 13-year-old Miranda Diane Gaddis, an eighth grader, another friend of Mallori's, disappeared after she left her apartment at 8 a.m. on her way to the school bus stop, sparking a nationwide FBI search. Massive searches turned up no clues.

Ashley and Miranda had attended the same school, rode the same bus, and were in the same dance class. Recently, on February 23rd, Miranda spent the night at the Weaver home for Mallori's, birthday.

Investigators were focusing on Weaver, who lived in a cheap rental home by the school bus stop where both girls were last seen. He seemed to be basking in the limelight. He invited television crews into his home to declare his innocence, and gave interviews on top of a concrete slab in his back yard.

On March 15th Harry Oakes, a private citizen, and his search dog, with permission from Lori Pond, offered to search the surrounding area. He was told by Weaver to “stay away from freshly laid concrete” because he doesn't “want it messed up.” The dog gave a positive “death alert” behind the house.

Ward Weaver was arrested August. 13, 2002, at 5:30 p.m. in Clackamas, after his son's 19-year-old girlfriend ran off naked screaming that he tried to rape her. Francis told emergency dispatchers that his father admitted killing Ashley and Miranda.

While in custody, for attempted rape, a grand jury indicted Weaver of aggravated murder charges. FBI investigators secured his back yard with a chain-link fence.

Between August 24 and 25 2002, searchers found Ashley under the concrete slab in a barrel, and Miranda in a box in tool shed both on Weaver's property.
Weaver was charged with aggravated murder in the deaths.

Corvallis lawyers, Michael Barker and Peter Fahy Weaver's court-appointed attorneys asked to be removed from the case for unknown reasons, but ended up staying on.

Initially the defense claimed Weaver was mentally unfit to stand trial but after an evaluation at the Oregon State Hospital they informed Judge Herndon he had regained the capacity to assist in his defense.

Defense requested a change of venue claiming the media attention in the case tainted the jury pool, and was a detriment to a fair trial. Judge Herndon agreed with prosecutions arguments that Weaver intentionally sought out media attention and turned the investigation into a media circus. After Weaver gave numerous interviews to the media, Judge Herndon had issued a gag order.

While in jail, Weaver wrote letters to Mallori. In September he wrote, "You and me against the world," 2002. After being denied visits with his daughter in January 2004, Ward wrote a suicide note:

"I have spent this whole week trying to figure out how to make the pain (of my heart + soul not coming to see me) stop. I can only think of one thing. Cut my heart out and cut (off) the parts that hurt. She is my whole heart.”

Jan. 11, 2004, Weaver was treated for razor wounds at Willamette Falls Hospital and released back to jail.

To avoid the death penalty, on September 2004, Weaver, 41, plead guilty to 17 counts, of rape, sex abuse, abuse of a corpse and killing Ashley and Miranda. He was sentenced to two life sentences without parole.

Weaver's father, Ward Francis Weaver Jr., is on death row in California for raping, murdering, and burying a woman's body below concrete in his back yard. She was found in 1982.

The Circleville Letters (my fav of all time). The whole segment was done in a way as not to defame anyone's character and it's clear UM left out a ton of details for that reason. Plus most of the people involved would not appear on camera.

In the Kevin Ives and Don Henry case, UM mentioned two boys were killed in a similar fashion in Oklahoma. I wish they had provided more details to the case since there may have been a connection.

In the Kevin Ives and Don Henry case, UM mentioned two boys were killed in a similar fashion in Oklahoma. I wish they had provided more details to the case since there may have been a connection.

YES! I have always wanted to know more about that case. They said the two boys in Oklahoma were also laid out on the train tracks (which has to be an unusual way to die). I have googled to no avail. I even checked the maps of train tracks in that part of the U.S. and the two locations are not too far apart.

Obviously, they didn't want to give potential arsonists any ideas.



The cops might have known or suspected that Angelo was involved in drugs, but lacked the evidence to justify publicly releasing that information. But there may have been another factor: It is entirely possible that there was some legitimate concern - especially among those close to Angelo - that any mention of Angelo's possible drug connections would make the viewers think so negatively of him that they would become apathetic about his well-being and/or whereabouts.

I could be wrong about that, but it's worth considering.

Any details on how big Angelo's drug dealing was or what kind of drugs he was involved with?

Anything involving the Mary Morris case. It seems like everything was withheld in that case.

Hard to say if this information was "intentionally" withheld, but UM never mentioned whose gun was found in Tommy Burkett's hand. Even the website his parents had made no mention of whose gun it was.

Hard to say if this information was "intentionally" withheld, but UM never mentioned whose gun was found in Tommy Burkett's hand. Even the website his parents had made no mention of whose gun it was.

This is typical of most of the "was it suicide or murder" segments involving firearms. It's the same deal with Rae Ann Mossor, Danny Williams, Tony Lombardi, Jeffrey Digmn, et al. We know they were shot, and the gun found close by or in their hand, but we aren't even implicitly told who the gun's legal owner is.

My best guess is that in those situations, the guns in question belonged to the deceased or to the family. This fact was withheld on UM because it makes the murder theories seem so much more questionable. How would someone kill you with your own gun? It's not impossible, but requires more creative theorizing when the simple explanation/solution is that the questionable death was in fact a suicide or an accident the instrument of which was a gun the person owned or had knowledge of. If that is all too hypothetical, look at it this way - if the gun was proven to belong to someone else, proven to be stolen, or was of otherwise unknown origin, surely this fact would have been mentioned on UM, as it makes the death seem suspicious.

The only obvious exception I can think of here is Norman Ladner. However, in Norman's case, there was some doubt as to whether his gun could have fired the bullet that killed him.

- Possibly completely unrelated to the case as a whole, but A) why was Kaitlyn Arquette's boyfriend's name never revealed (he was called "Kaitlyn's boyfriend" through the entire segment), and B) for what reason were his friends constantly "making fun of her"?

Old post, but I can answer this. Kait's boyfriend's name was Dung Nguyen. I'm not sure why they didn't name him though it may just be because that is a very common name in the Vietnamese population. I was a huge Lois Duncan fan growing up, so I've followed this case for years. Dung's friends were involved in car wreck insurance scams and possibly in drug dealing. I'm guessing that, if they were making fun of Kait, it was because she wouldn't go along with those activities. I'm pretty sure that Kait "wore the pants" in that relationship as well, and Dung's friends may have looked down on her and on Dung for that.

UM never revealed any of the contents found in Brad Bishop's car when he abandoned it.

1) What happened when Max Carson was confronted by a woman who knew about his past and how she managed not to get attacked.

2) The 2 (same named victims case we are not allowed to discuss) and the situation behind the unreleased 911 call. Seriously, had the attack already happened, was it during the attack, before, etc. Agreed Hambone.

I find it interesting that UM disclosed Dick Hansen was an addicted drug user...


i dont recall hearing that in the episode. did i miss it?

The New Hampshire Serial Killer---It's difficult to say if this was deliberately held because UM may have not known about it, but the baby daughter of Jane Boroski, the surviving victim, suffered from mild cerebral palsy that might have been a result of her mother's attack. Also, several of the victims---Eva Morse, Bernice Coutermarche and Ellen Fried, were all tied together by their occupations. Bernice was a nurse's aide and Ellen and Eva were nurses.

The I-70 Killer---it's not that major but on other reports about the killings, the authorities believe the sole male victim was killed because at the time, he had long hair and the killer may have mistaken him for a woman.

Doreen Picard/Susan Laferte---The daughter of Douglas Heath was the first one to discover Susan's daughter Nicole alone in the hallway locked out of the apartment and also found the bodies along with her dad. It's not clear why UM didn't have her appear on camera, but she was 15 at the time and maybe her father, who did appear, didn't want her to. UM casually mentioned the murder weapon, a pipe, wasn't discovered for three days. What they didn't say was that police were actually looking for a gun because they thought the two had been shot, not beaten. There are so many details left out of the segment that were later revealed after Raymond Tempest was arrested because of possible police corruption. I wonder if UM was onto something in the first place?

Also, the unsolved murder of the kid named Eugene which was briefly mentioned at the end of the Kurt Sova segment. And the other boy who was burned in the shack with Scott Johnson who never even had his name mentioned on the broadcast (though I'm guessing UM just couldn't secure permission from the boy's family).


I thought that was odd also. It seems like the other boys parents would have wanted to release his name to help solve the case.

I never knew Angela Hammond was pregnant until I started reading this message board. I wonder why that was never mentioned in the story.

I thought that was odd also. It seems like the other boys parents would have wanted to release his name to help solve the case.


My guess on this would be that the other boy's family believed the accidental death scenario and felt the case was already solved.

The New Hampshire Serial Killer---It's difficult to say if this was deliberately held because UM may have not known about it, but the baby daughter of Jane Boroski, the surviving victim, suffered from mild cerebral palsy that might have been a result of her mother's attack. Also, several of the victims---Eva Morse, Bernice Coutermarche and Ellen Fried, were all tied together by their occupations. Bernice was a nurse's aide and Ellen and Eva were nurses.

Keep in mind that the segment was filmed about a year or two after Jane's attack and it's possible that they didn't know yet about her baby's mild form of cerebal palsy because she was barely a toddler at the time.

Also, Eva Morse had, at one time, worked as a nurse's aid but not for several years. She was a factory worker at the time of her murder. But the segment didn't go into detail about the other victims anyway.

The whole nurse thing I think was a coincidence. All the victims were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Bernice Coutermarche and Eva Morse were hitchhiking when they were killed. Ellen Fried and eventually Barbara Agnew (who was also a nurse) were kidnapped late at night within close distance of their own cars.

This guy was a thrill killer. I don't think he put any thought into the kind of occupation his victims would have. As long as they were within his sight and there was no witnesses, he would strike. And he would kill in the same way (10-20 stab wounds with the main damange coming to the neck). Kathy Millican, Elizabeth Critchley and Linda Moore were not nurses but also suffered the same pattern of stab wounds.

In the Gary Grant Jr case. UM never mentioned that Boos older brother was arrested on robbery charges days before the killing.

I wish UM would have shown the actual security tapes in the Dale Kerstetter and Matt Flores segments.

I wish UM would have shown the actual security tapes in the Dale Kerstetter and Matt Flores segments.

I agree. There's really no reason not to show them unless it showed some gruesome images which there has been nothing to suggest either of them did.

I agree. There's really no reason not to show them unless it showed some gruesome images which there has been nothing to suggest either of them did.

Or unless the footage contained details that the authorities wanted to keep from the public in case a suspect materialized, at which point it would be possible for the suspect to slip up by hinting a knowledge of such information.

Or unless the footage contained details that the authorities wanted to keep from the public in case a suspect materialized, at which point it would be possible for the suspect to slip up by hinting a knowledge of such information.

True but how long do you wait for that to happen without releasing the full videos in case someone may have information about that extra footage?

Regarding the Kerstetter and Flores footage - could it be that since the footage pertained to possibly sensitive locations - in the case of Kerstetter's especially, since the plant contained platinum - that the footage wasn't released for security reasons, possibly so outsiders wouldn't have an idea as to the actual layout of either location.

Regarding the Kerstetter and Flores footage - could it be that since the footage pertained to possibly sensitive locations - in the case of Kerstetter's especially, since the plant contained platinum - that the footage wasn't released for security reasons, possibly so outsiders wouldn't have an idea as to the actual layout of either location.

I was actually thinking of that, too. It is legitimately possible that security concerns were a factor in each case.

Regarding the Kerstetter and Flores footage - could it be that since the footage pertained to possibly sensitive locations - in the case of Kerstetter's especially, since the plant contained platinum - that the footage wasn't released for security reasons, possibly so outsiders wouldn't have an idea as to the actual layout of either location.

Very good point. I hadn't thought of that.

During one the live shows (one that aired just before Thanksgiving, cant recall the year, the one that aired the Tracy Davis case where she kidnapped her grandson) one of the two ladies that were providing live updates mentioned that UM usually withheld a couple of facts about each case they profiled because if a call came in with that information that they withheld they knew the tip was legit and a good lead.

During one the live shows (one that aired just before Thanksgiving, cant recall the year, the one that aired the Tracy Davis case where she kidnapped her grandson) one of the two ladies that were providing live updates mentioned that UM usually withheld a couple of facts about each case they profiled because if a call came in with that information that they withheld they knew the tip was legit and a good lead.

I figured to get LE to cooperate UM would withold certain information, basically to not hinder an ongoing investigation. But after all of these years, what can IMHO it could only help these cold cases, not hurt them.

I figured to get LE to cooperate UM would withold certain information, basically to not hinder an ongoing investigation. But after all of these years, what can IMHO it could only help these cold cases, not hurt them.

I agree. I understand withholding certain information but after so long, it wont hurt to release that information.

During one the live shows (one that aired just before Thanksgiving, cant recall the year, the one that aired the Tracy Davis case where she kidnapped her grandson) one of the two ladies that were providing live updates mentioned that UM usually withheld a couple of facts about each case they profiled because if a call came in with that information that they withheld they knew the tip was legit and a good lead.

America's Most Wanted has done that, too (as AMW host John Walsh acknowledged in his book "No Mercy"). It is definitely a matter of determining the legitimacy of any prospective tips they eventually receive.

In the UM segment about Donna Brown (who abandoned her children to help killer Michael Wayne Brown escape from prison, and start a new life with him) Stack says that she had two previous husbands who were both murdered. Did anyone else think it was odd that they didn't go into any detail about that? ("Well, they were both murdered...not really important...let's talk about something else..."):eek:

In the UM segment about Donna Brown (who abandoned her children to help killer Michael Wayne Brown escape from prison, and start a new life with him) Stack says that she had two previous husbands who were both murdered. Did anyone else think it was odd that they didn't go into any detail about that? ("Well, they were both murdered...not really important...let's talk about something else..."):eek:

Wow, I didn't even realize that!

Old thread but UM never revealed how Steve Wilson killed Bill Thornburgh

Old thread but UM never revealed how Steve Wilson killed Bill Thornburgh

That is surprising they wouldn't reveal something that basic. I have a book that talks a little about the case. If you're wondering he died from a single bullet in the back of his head.

That is surprising they wouldn't reveal something that basic. I have a book that talks a little about the case. If you're wondering he died from a single bullet in the back of his head.


That case was a strange one to me. I hated the part where Callie grabs the gun in the reenactment because shooting Wilson with a shotgun would probably kill him. The only part UM revealed about the murder was that Bill disappeared early in the morning and left his drink on top of his truck and Wilson disappeared too and then a teen boy found a human skull IDed as Bill Thornburgh

The note in the Keith Warren case clearly mentions that someone else will be targeted next, but only one name is shown. I could only make out an "L" for the next name, nothing else.

More about certain lifestyles of missing persons/victims, such as Amy Billig.

More information means more clues!

Some great contributions as always...

Henry and Ives is a good example of this that others have mentioned - the basis on which LE concluded suicide would be worth hearing, especially since many suspected foul play.

Although I understand why they didn't include it, the identity of the kids (and parents of) who were alleged to be bullying Tommy Burkett would have cast that case in a very different light.

That Cindy James confronted her ex re:- if he was the man who was tormenting her. Saw that somewhere else and concluded that she wanted him to be the prime suspect, ergo it's likely at least some of her 'nightmare' was self-created (I forget if the UM segment included the 'Cindy Dead Meat Soon' voicemail, but that clearly sounded like a woman pretending to be a man!!).

There's three of the top of my head...

The note in the Keith Warren case clearly mentions that someone else will be targeted next, but only one name is shown. I could only make out an "L" for the next name, nothing else.

More than likely, that person's name was concealed for security reasons. The unidentified individual was probably well aware that his life was in danger, so he may have asked that the show not reveal his name.

More about certain lifestyles of missing persons/victims, such as Amy Billig.

More information means more clues!

True, but there may have been a good reason why certain details about a victim, missing person, or case in general are not discussed on the show. In some cases, it might be because of a legitimate concern that certain revelations about the person would paint him/her in such a negative light that it would do more to hinder the case than help it. Therefore, sometimes certain things may be excluded from mention at the request of the family of the victim/missing person.

Of course, there is also the matter of detectives keeping a few details about a case from the press in the hopes that someone will slip up by acknowledging such information, at which point they would have a legitimate suspect.

Occasionally, a relevant detail may not be mentioned for the simple reason that it had not come to light until after UM had already profiled the case.

More than likely, that person's name was concealed for security reasons. The unidentified individual was probably well aware that his life was in danger, so he may have asked that the show not reveal his name.



True, but there may have been a good reason why certain details about a victim, missing person, or case in general are not discussed on the show. In some cases, it might be because of a legitimate concern that certain revelations about the person would paint him/her in such a negative light that it would do more to hinder the case than help it. Therefore, sometimes certain things may be excluded from mention at the request of the family of the victim/missing person.

Of course, there is also the matter of detectives keeping a few details about a case from the press in the hopes that someone will slip up by acknowledging such information, at which point they would have a legitimate suspect.

Occasionally, a relevant detail may not be mentioned for the simple reason that it had not come to light until after UM had already profiled the case.

Oh, I understand Kane. It just fascinates me is all. I'd like to know the info, but respect that releasing it could cause problems.

Before coming on this forum, I was in the dark about so many of these cases, only seeing them from UM angles.

Although I did not see the segment itself (but would love to) and only read about it on here, Justin5256 said that in the Marlena Childress segment, her grandfather randomly mentions that he believes that "a waitress" kidnapped Marlena, but neither he nor the segment elaborates on that theory.

Who was this waitress and why would Marlena's grandfather ever think that this woman (whoever she may be) would be responsible for his grandchild's disappearance? I doubt it's true and the more I've read, the more convinced I am that Marlena's mother Pamela Bailey was responsible, but the comment about the waitress just seems so weird. Clearly he had a specific "waitress" in mind who he thought kidnapped Marlena.

Although I did not see the segment itself (but would love to) and only read about it on here, Justin5256 said that in the Marlena Childress segment, her grandfather randomly mentions that he believes that "a waitress" kidnapped Marlena, but neither he nor the segment elaborates on that theory.

Who was this waitress and why would Marlena's grandfather ever think that this woman (whoever she may be) would be responsible for his grandchild's disappearance? I doubt it's true and the more I've read, the more convinced I am that Marlena's mother Pamela Bailey was responsible, but the comment about the waitress just seems so weird. Clearly he had a specific "waitress" in mind who he thought kidnapped Marlena.

I don't remember this case, but Marlena's Charley Project page really makes it sound like her mother is involved. Those two completely different confessions, one stating she sold the girl to pay off a drug debt and the other saying she killed her and placed her body in the river, are hard to excuse as innocent (or even drug induced) ramblings.

If the grandfather was trying to say this was a kidnapping by a waitress, maybe he was in denial, knows what happened but is trying to cover for the child's mother, or is trying to divert police attention away from the mother.

Or if he really seems convinced, maybe the mother gave Marlena to this waitress or someone close to her, and he knows or suspects this is what happened. Also, could the mother have made yet another odd confession, this one to the grandfather, naming the waitress, and he believes it?

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/c/childress_marlena.html

I don't remember this case, but Marlena's Charley Project page really makes it sound like her mother is involved. Those two completely different confessions, one stating she sold the girl to pay off a drug debt and the other saying she killed her and placed her body in the river, are hard to excuse as innocent (or even drug induced) ramblings.

If the grandfather was trying to say this was a kidnapping by a waitress, maybe he was in denial, knows what happened but is trying to cover for the child's mother, or is trying to divert police attention away from the mother.

Or if he really seems convinced, maybe the mother gave Marlena to this waitress or someone close to her, and he knows or suspects this is what happened. Also, could the mother have made yet another odd confession, this one to the grandfather, naming the waitress, and he believes it?

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/c/childress_marlena.html

I do agree that the mother seems involved but I think there's a chance she gave Marlena away or sold her for whatever reason. I do have the UM segment on this and there are two sightings mentioned there that do seem believeable imo. One is two hairdressers that claim two women brought in a girl whom they saw was Marlena to get her hair caught soon after she went missing. They said the two women weren't very nice to her and tried to bribe her to cooperate in getting her hair cut. She even said they referred to her as Marlena. The hairdresser thought nothing of the encounter until she saw Marlena's picture on the front page of the paper after she went missing. Another sighting I believe was a while later and a mother with her two kids at a store said she saw a little girl whom she believed was Marlena at a store. Someone was yelling at her because she had gotten away from whoever brought her there.

Here is an interesting article about sightings of Marlena living with a family after she was reported missing:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=266&dat=19890505&id=a_MrAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Q2oFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2826,700211

Re: Marlena Childress:

I heard from a very credible source that Marlena's family sought to stop Lifetime from showing the segment. I find that unusual.

When I think of all the grieving parents I've seen on UM over the years, from those whose children were abducted and missing to those whose children had died supposedly by suicide yet there was cause to suspect otherwise, I can't think of a single parent who seemed like they didn't want the exposure.

Re: Marlena Childress:

I heard from a very credible source that Marlena's family sought to stop Lifetime from showing the segment. I find that unusual.

When I think of all the grieving parents I've seen on UM over the years, from those whose children were abducted and missing to those whose children had died supposedly by suicide yet there was cause to suspect otherwise, I can't think of a single parent who seemed like they didn't want the exposure.

I think I remember hearing that too. I definitely think it's suspicious. It almost makes you wonder why they even went out of their way to agree to having their case profiled in the first place.

Not secret, but certainly not mentioned in the segment: James Ellroy had a very negative view of his mother and actually faked crying on the way home because he was "relieved" that he wouldn't have to live with her. I was pretty sad to read that in a new book I just got, the Encyclopedia of Unsolved Crimes. Although very intense in his interview, I thought he held some affection for her.

I wish they'd mentioned that information about Patricia Stallings having had a run-in with DHS previously because her child (not the one who died) had frostbite and malnutrition. Don't get me wrong--Patricia didn't deserve to be put in prison--but knowing that little detail makes it easier to understand why the police focused their attention on her. But then again, that would add shades of grey and blur the "Falsely-Accused Mother/Big Bad Cops" plotline they had going.

More than likely, that person's name was concealed for security reasons. The unidentified individual was probably well aware that his life was in danger, so he may have asked that the show not reveal his name.



True, but there may have been a good reason why certain details about a victim, missing person, or case in general are not discussed on the show. In some cases, it might be because of a legitimate concern that certain revelations about the person would paint him/her in such a negative light that it would do more to hinder the case than help it. Therefore, sometimes certain things may be excluded from mention at the request of the family of the victim/missing person.

Of course, there is also the matter of detectives keeping a few details about a case from the press in the hopes that someone will slip up by acknowledging such information, at which point they would have a legitimate suspect.

Occasionally, a relevant detail may not be mentioned for the simple reason that it had not come to light until after UM had already profiled the case.this is a good point Kane. I believe bob stack once made mention of this in an update segment to show how UM and fellow detectives can spot a legitimate lead where a caller has inside info not released vs a bogus one.

I too wonder about the "waitress in the area" in the Marlena Childress case. What reason would she have for kidnapping her?

The entire case has always been very bizarre to me. The very first time I saw the segment, I got the profound sense that Pam Bailey probably did in fact kill her daughter. But those witnesses in the beauty shop in Memphis seemed so credible that I couldn't completely give myself over to that notion. Additionally, they both identified the waitress as the woman who was in the beauty shop that day with the little girl. And those phone calls. I absolutely don't get the sense those women aren't telling the truth about any of those things.

I do think the woman who thought she saw Marlena in Lenoir City was mistaken, however.

Pretty much EVERYTHING from this article about the Cokeville hostage crisis. The three other adults. The messianic overtones. The couple's daughter trying to warn people. http://articles.philly.com/1986-05-18/news/26051524_1_principal-max-excell-cokeville-elementary-school-biggie

I too wonder about the "waitress in the area" in the Marlena Childress case. What reason would she have for kidnapping her?

The entire case has always been very bizarre to me. The very first time I saw the segment, I got the profound sense that Pam Bailey probably did in fact kill her daughter. But those witnesses in the beauty shop in Memphis seemed so credible that I couldn't completely give myself over to that notion. Additionally, they both identified the waitress as the woman who was in the beauty shop that day with the little girl. And those phone calls. I absolutely don't get the sense those women aren't telling the truth about any of those things.

I do think the woman who thought she saw Marlena in Lenoir City was mistaken, however.
I just watched this segment for the first time the other day. I think Pam Bailey is an extremely unstable woman and is likely responsible for Marlena's disappearance (and probably, her death).

I do find the beauticians' account quite fascinating though. They seemed very sincere. If they saw a little girl who only looked like Marlena, what about the waitress? How would they have pointed out the son from the line up if they were being untruthful? We definitely need more information about the waitress and why she was a suspect in the first place.

I also agree the lady in the store was just mistaken. The little girl probably looked like Marlena, but wasn't her.

Those letters (and phone calls) from the Nyleen Kay Marshall case.

I just watched this segment for the first time the other day. I think Pam Bailey is an extremely unstable woman and is likely responsible for Marlena's disappearance (and probably, her death).

I do find the beauticians' account quite fascinating though. They seemed very sincere. If they saw a little girl who only looked like Marlena, what about the waitress? How would they have pointed out the son from the line up if they were being untruthful? We definitely need more information about the waitress and why she was a suspect in the first place.

I also agree the lady in the store was just mistaken. The little girl probably looked like Marlena, but wasn't her.

I'm glad to see the segment is "out there."

There is an interesting thread about the case on Topix.

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/union-city-tn/T0OOG4KRQPV1UFC31

It is kind of a local forum where people who live in the area post. Several people on the thread claimed to have been involved in searching for Marlena, or to be involved in other aspects of the case. Casey Bailey posted in the thread too.

One poster mentions that the theories proposed on UM were eventually dismissed by LE. Not sure how accurate that is.

Like others, I always wondered about the hair stylists' reports, as those seemed the most accurate. I wonder if the girl in question was just a ringer and the mother got pissed that these women thought the girl was Marlena and got the police involved.

Another theory is that Pam sold Marlena for drug money. Maybe the waitress was the buyer? Seems kind of outlandish but could explain some of the circumstances.

- The new evidence unearthed by the show that led to Tim McClure's arrest for the murder of his mother

That's the first entry in this thread, and would certainly top my list. I think I've said everything that can be said about this case over the years, but it's interesting to think about the other things that point to his involvement (on top of what was presented in the segment).

Virtually everything in the Perman Gilbert segment.

I would love to learn more details about the Angela Cummings murder, a case which was briefly connected to the "Confess Your Crime" phone call before it was exposed as a hoax. All we learned was that Cummings was shot to death in her boyfriend's apartment. Given that the "Confess Your Crime" guy talked about killing his girlfriend, it's apparent they suspected Cummings' boyfriend was responsible and initially believed he was the caller. I can't find any other information about this case online, but it sounds pretty intriguing. You'd think UM would have felt compelled to devote a full segment to the Cummings murder.

I would love to learn more details about the Angela Cummings murder, a case which was briefly connected to the "Confess Your Crime" phone call before it was exposed as a hoax. All we learned was that Cummings was shot to death in her boyfriend's apartment. Given that the "Confess Your Crime" guy talked about killing his girlfriend, it's apparent they suspected Cummings' boyfriend was responsible and initially believed he was the caller. I can't find any other information about this case online, but it sounds pretty intriguing. You'd think UM would have felt compelled to devote a full segment to the Cummings murder.

There were many people that called in thinking their loved one had been killed by the man who had done the call in confession. I think the interview with Angela's mother was more about giving a face to show the public of a grieving family member that had been given false hope by those moron DJ's Kevin and Dean. It was kind of like UM telling the public, look at these guys doing a publicity stunt, keeping with it, hurting a ton of people and STILL getting their jobs back...screw those guys.

Not that I didn't hurt for Angela's mother, though. I'd like to know more about the murder as well but maybe there wasn't enough info to dedicate an entire segment to it.

There were many people that called in thinking their loved one had been killed by the man who had done the call in confession. I think the interview with Angela's mother was more about giving a face to show the public of a grieving family member that had been given false hope by those moron DJ's Kevin and Dean. It was kind of like UM telling the public, look at these guys doing a publicity stunt, keeping with it, hurting a ton of people and STILL getting their jobs back...screw those guys.

Not that I didn't hurt for Angela's mother, though. I'd like to know more about the murder as well but maybe there wasn't enough info to dedicate an entire segment to it.
They're still on the air here in L.A. I refuse to ever listen to KROQ knowing they're still employed by the station.

I think UM did the right thing showing Angela's mother. Not only did they give the case attention, but they showed just how hurtful the DJs really were, like you said. I would like to know more about the case, but I'm guessing there's little to know. Still unsolved, last time I checked.

I think the entire contents of Meg's thread about brief cases that should have been full segments could go here.

This wouldn't change the outcome of the case any, but I'd be curious to see Bob Bean and Danny Wheeler's full interviews.

Some good contributions from everyone.

Just thought of another factoid omitted by UM, but for obvious reasons - the chemical concoction used by a professional arsonist in a series of fires in the Pacific Northwest. The specific combination of chemicals caused the fires to burn hotter, spread faster, and be resistant to water. Stack mentioned that investigators discovered the contents of the mixture after conducting numerous experiments, but were keeping it a secret.

The presentation of the Angelo Desidari case was strange. In retrospect, I wonder just how much the police knew about Angelo's dealings at the time of the original broadcast that they withheld. Even the update on the arrest of James Majors and Joe Callo for Angelo's murder was extremely vague with regard to the motive. IIRC, it was speculated that these men planned to rob Angelo because it was rumored he had a lot of cash and jewelry. Uh-huh.

I'm pretty sure that it was disclosed that the letters discovered pertaining to Mikki Jo West's murder did name the man who was already a suspect. I watched the story semi-recently, but it was a tape of the original broadcast, so maybe Lifetime cut it.


Regarding Mikki West, the segment I have (like many on here) has stack saying "And here, we can't give the person's name". The name is blacked out in the letters.

I think the entire contents of Meg's thread about brief cases that should have been full segments could go here.

This wouldn't change the outcome of the case any, but I'd be curious to see Bob Bean and Danny Wheeler's full interviews.

It wouldn't have changed much in the case, but it was never presented that Nick Markowitz dabbled in drugs prior to his fateful (and fatal) encounter with Jesse James Hollywood's group.

Not sure if it has been said or not, but why they didn't show the original recording of the car in the parking lot in the Matt Flores case?

Never really understood why they couldn't show this...

Not sure if it has been said or not, but why they didn't show the original recording of the car in the parking lot in the Matt Flores case?

Never really understood why they couldn't show this...
I've wondered about this myself. There may have been people in the shot walking to and from their cars, but you would think that they could obscure their faces.

Not sure if it has been said or not, but why they didn't show the original recording of the car in the parking lot in the Matt Flores case?

Never really understood why they couldn't show this...


My best guess would be that at the time, showing the security footage may have made the police nervous about biasing a potential jury pool.

I vividly remember the Red Carbon segment.

I later found out from two different Chemists that it does not exist. Carbon cannot be red.


I think you mean Red Mercury.

And it can exist, just not in the way the book in the segment described it. Cinnabar is the most common mercury ore found in nature and is naturally red.


It's how the Chinese made red lacquerware. And how "china red" or "vermillion" paint was made.

I think you mean Red Mercury.

And it can exist, just not in the way the book in the segment described it. Cinnabar is the most common mercury ore found in nature and is naturally red.


It's how the Chinese made red lacquerware. And how "china red" or "vermillion" paint was made.

Automatic thought:

http://www1.macys.com/shop/product/estee-lauder-cinnabar-fragrance-spray-1.75-oz?ID=75111

Yes, Red Mercury. My apologies.

Two Chemists told me it does not exist and cannot be used for lethal purposes.

I know very little about Chemistry, but I believe this is all a myth.


As I said, it does not exist the way the book describes it, but mercury ore can be and is commonly red. It is mercury sulfide, HgS.

http://www.dakotamatrix.com/mineral-galleries/archived?name=Cinnabar

I know a fair amount about chemistry when it comes to metals, particularly those used for decorative purposes.

Mercury CAN be red. However, HgS cannot be used to make nuclear bombs.

The substance in the book, however, is a hoax. It was initially described as "red" because it came from the Soviet Union. Later the myth morphed into it being the color red.

This is a hoax:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_mercury

This is a mercury compound that is real and is red:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnabar

As I said, it does not exist the way the book describes it, but mercury ore can be and is commonly red. It is mercury sulfide, HgS.

http://www.dakotamatrix.com/mineral-galleries/archived?name=Cinnabar

I know a fair amount about chemistry when it comes to metals, particularly those used for decorative purposes.

Mercury CAN be red. However, HgS cannot be used to make nuclear bombs.

The substance in the book, however, is a hoax. It was initially described as "red" because it came from the Soviet Union. Later the myth morphed into it being the color red.

This is a hoax:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_mercury

This is a mercury compound that is real and is red:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnabar

You're right. It's nothing more but fiction you would see in a movie or read in Tom Clancy or Frederick Forsyth novel.

CrystalDawn What accusations was Tammy's mother accused of? I have not heard about them, if someone could clue me in?

I wanted to bump this thread because last night I saw the Forensic Files of Dan Short's murder. UM never mentioned that how they figured out the Agophskys were the killers were that after a court order made Shannon Agophsky submit a fingerprint after Joe volunteered to give one when they matched Shannon's print to one on a loose roll of tape that they determined Dan Short was tied with.

- The details of the torture done to Jay Cook that indicated to authorities that the killer was probably an ex-con.



CrystalDawn What accusations was Tammy's mother accused of? I have not heard about them, if someone could clue me in?


I ~think the 'torture' was that Jay Cook's killer stuffed cigarettes or a cigarette pack in his mouth?

And I think Tammy's mother was accused of exploiting her and forcing her to do the pageants.

About a year before Lisa Ziegert's killer was finally arrested, Crime Watch Daily featured her case and mentioned the fact that Lisa would often ask girlfriends or her sister to come to the card shop whenever they could so she wouldn't be alone. A friend that was interviewed even said that she did this because she feared she was being watched.

I was completely dumbfounded over how Unsolved Mysteries made no mention of this because it's usually the kind of info they crave. The feeling you can't shake that something horrible is about to happen (Kathy Hobbs, Frank Allen, Cindy Anderson, etc.)

Gary Schara later admitted that the murder was random and he had never been there before. But I still think it's possible he could have watched the card shop a couple days or so in advance in order to find out Lisa's routine and when she would be alone. It would be one thing for her to be extra cautious. But the fact that she literally said, "I feel like I'm being watched," makes me believe that someone had to put that thought in to her head.

Again with Tim McClure: what were the reasons behind the motion to dismiss the case with prejudice? If I had to choose just one piece of information to have out of all those mentioned on this thread, this is the one I'd select.

For me, it could be a major determining factor on whether I would continue to lean toward his guilt, or do a complete 180 on the case.

Unsolved mysteries usually had no problem with giving us all the facts, but i think at times their info seems dated or missing things because many things have to light in the last 20 years since these were aired.

Maybe the most interesting case for me on unsolved mysteries is chuck morgan a guy who goes missing twice in arizona and the second time turns up dead and theres a whole mixture of theories, the mob, the government, strange phone calls, For some reason the show really doesn't question the narrative of the mystery, it takes what ruth morgan says as fact, apart from one cop, nobody else is interviewed apart from her. and it always seemed that the show was a little lazy in how it presented the mystery, having said that! it's still maybe my favorite segment.

I thought it was unusual that there were a few cases where I would have expected a police sketch to have been created and shown, yet they weren’t for whatever reason. Namely, I’m thinking of the Dexter Stefonek and Angela Hammond cases. In the former case, a custodian at the rest stop saw the potential suspect in broad daylight and gave a description, yet I’ve never been able to find an actual sketch. Since I don’t know that a sketch exists, I can’t say that UM intentionally withheld the info. However, in the latter case, a sketch was generated, however UM did not show it in their broadcast, instead just describing the suspect’s appearance. In both cases, an actual sketch of the suspects would potentially be helpful in solving the case

Again with Tim McClure: what were the reasons behind the motion to dismiss the case with prejudice? If I had to choose just one piece of information to have out of all those mentioned on this thread, this is the one I'd select.

For me, it could be a major determining factor on whether I would continue to lean toward his guilt, or do a complete 180 on the case.

This is a very underrated post. I would love to know what evidence they used to charge him, and what evidence they used to clear with prejudice also. Both pieces would be interesting to hear, and like you, I think that would probably change my mind one way or the other.

Sort of OT, but I've followed the case of Curtis Flowers since the "In The Dark" podcast covered his case. His case was finally dismissed with prejudice, but he had been tried, convicted, and overturned seven times (including getting the death penalty) on evidence that was shaky at best. It totally makes sense why his case was dismissed with prejudice.

For McClure, I'm just surprised they would dismiss with prejudice unless there was pretty clear evidence he was innocent. It's one thing to say the police had it out for him (which they may have), but it's another to let a potentially guilty man go free and prevent him from being charged again unless they had some very good info.

Was Lavar Bates two-timing Peggy? He had a photograph of another girl on his dresser.

Gary Schara later admitted that the murder was random and he had never been there before. But I still think it's possible he could have watched the card shop a couple days or so in advance in order to find out Lisa's routine and when she would be alone.

According to some articles I've read, he had purchased his then-wife a music box from the store prior to the murder. He quite possibly first saw Lisa at that time.

Again with Tim McClure: what were the reasons behind the motion to dismiss the case with prejudice? If I had to choose just one piece of information to have out of all those mentioned on this thread, this is the one I'd select.

For me, it could be a major determining factor on whether I would continue to lean toward his guilt, or do a complete 180 on the case.

This is the one thing I keep coming back on. If the investigators and prosecutors were 100% convinced that McClure murdered his mother, what exactly could have happened for a judge to dismiss the case against him with prejudice? I can't fathom any sort of judge would do this over a simple error or because the cops were dead set on McClure. There has to be something there that we do not know.

Unsolved mysteries usually had no problem with giving us all the facts, but i think at times their info seems dated or missing things because many things have to light in the last 20 years since these were aired.

Maybe the most interesting case for me on unsolved mysteries is chuck morgan a guy who goes missing twice in arizona and the second time turns up dead and theres a whole mixture of theories, the mob, the government, strange phone calls, For some reason the show really doesn't question the narrative of the mystery, it takes what ruth morgan says as fact, apart from one cop, nobody else is interviewed apart from her. and it always seemed that the show was a little lazy in how it presented the mystery, having said that! it's still maybe my favorite segment.

I disagree. I feel that UM definitely used their own agenda in presenting certain segments in the manner in which they wanted them to be swayed.

The one I always wonder about was the lady who worked in some dives, had two kids, and was living with a guy. She kept getting harassed and told her live-in that her ex-husband was mean, dangerous, and out to get her--possibly to gain custody of the kids. She then died. (Brain tumor or aneurism I'm thinking.) Inquiries to know more about her were met with "don't ever mention her again and forget you knew her." A picture of her ran on TV just once and the station was somehow intimidated into never running it again.

When UM featured it, her ex-husband came forward. It turns out he was perfectly nice and always wondered what happened to his kids. UM then turned it into a Lost Loves case, reunited him with the kids, and dropped it.

Leaving the major questions: WHO was behind all the harassment? WHO frightened and intimidated the people at the TV station and why? WHAT was up with this woman that couldn't even be talked about after she was dead? The question is, could UM simply not learn these answers and didn't want to admit it, or were they somehow intimidated?

The one I always wonder about was the lady who worked in some dives, had two kids, and was living with a guy. She kept getting harassed and told her live-in that her ex-husband was mean, dangerous, and out to get her--possibly to gain custody of the kids. She then died. (Brain tumor or aneurism I'm thinking.) Inquiries to know more about her were met with "don't ever mention her again and forget you knew her." A picture of her ran on TV just once and the station was somehow intimidated into never running it again.

When UM featured it, her ex-husband came forward. It turns out he was perfectly nice and always wondered what happened to his kids. UM then turned it into a Lost Loves case, reunited him with the kids, and dropped it.

Leaving the major questions: WHO was behind all the harassment? WHO frightened and intimidated the people at the TV station and why? WHAT was up with this woman that couldn't even be talked about after she was dead? The question is, could UM simply not learn these answers and didn't want to admit it, or were they somehow intimidated?

Georgia Boyd. Definitely an odd segment although not one where I think UM was persuaded to drop the subject as whatever pressure there was was clearly local yokel variety. My guess is just no one wanted to talk to UM so little could be done.
I do wonder about a few of the Vietnam segments getting pressure however, along with the Doug Johnston/Charles Morgan/Danny Casolaro segments and what impact that had on the version UM presented.

The iceman was supposed to have been shot in Vietnam and brought back in a body bag.

Thanks for giving Georgia Boyd's name. Amazing and alarming that she had six children by the age of 22!

i dont recall hearing that in the episode. did i miss it?

No that was never in the 'Dick Hansen' segment. OP said it came from a newspaper article.

Anthonette Cayedito. Even before her mom Penny confessed to the FBI in 1994, you would have thought that some of the info about Penny would have been in the segment, but sometimes UM made parents look like saints unless it was a case like Jaclyn Dowaliby or Ryan Stallings. Also, why did UM not get hold of the FBI info on Penny's confession, was that not available after 1994?

Anthonette Cayedito. Even before her mom Penny confessed to the FBI in 1994, you would have thought that some of the info about Penny would have been in the segment, but sometimes UM made parents look like saints unless it was a case like Jaclyn Dowaliby or Ryan Stallings. Also, why did UM not get hold of the FBI info on Penny's confession, was that not available after 1994?

Because her "confession" was not really a confession, and for a host of reasons shouldn't be considered reliable.

Because her "confession" was not really a confession, and for a host of reasons shouldn't be considered reliable.

Why is that?

There is a whole different side of things to the Baskin story. One that makes the parents look like monsters. I don't buy that theory, and think the Baskin children got fed a lot of false rumors growing up about their parents, but it does surprise me that this was not part of the segment at least.

Anthonette Cayedito. Even before her mom Penny confessed to the FBI in 1994, you would have thought that some of the info about Penny would have been in the segment, but sometimes UM made parents look like saints unless it was a case like Jaclyn Dowaliby or Ryan Stallings.

Everything about the Cayedito case, was butchered by the Unsolved Mysteries reenactment.

Penny was portrayed as a clean cut, responsible mother. Here are some things I've learned about Penny in the past 15 years:

-Penny was into drugs, and sold drugs It was not uncommon for cars to arrive at the Cayedito residence for a short period of time, and leave, usually late at night or early in the morning.
-Penny would often stay out all night at local bars (she was drinking at a local bar until at least midnight when Anthonette was abducted)
-The was an FBI raid on Penny's residence a couple of weeks before Anthonette was abducted. They were looking for drugs
-Penny often invited strange men into her home, and may have been involved in the sex trade
-Witness sightings of Anthonette were most common in the months after she was abducted, yet the show only paid attention to a tip that came nearly 5 years after Anthonette went missing, and treated it as the most credible
-Penny was not forthcoming to investigators, and had a "care-free" attitude, which was unusual for a mother of a missing child
-Penny did not disclose all the gifts the man "Emo" gave to Anthonette immediately prior to her disappearance
-Penny attempted suicide shortly after Anthonette went missing
-Wendy, who was 5 years old when Anthonette went missing, told investigators years later that she witnessed Anthonette's kidnapping, which is in contrast to the middle child Sadie had said (they did not witness any abduction)
-Wendy was known in school as a bully and habitual liar. She also went on to join gangs, and became a drug addict by her teens
-allegedly, Penny had purchased a new vehicle shortly after Anthonette went missing, which was unusual since the family was impoverished, and lived in the poorest areas of Gallop. Penny also had mentioned that Anthonette was "becoming a problem" (most likely she started to wise up to the lifestyle choices of her mother), and confined in people that she had sold Anthonette off for drugs and money.
-Penny was never ruled out as a suspect, and through the 90s, until her death in 1999, was the prime suspect in Anthonette's disappearance.
-In 1999, Penny became seriously ill, and died in April. Investigators rushed to obtain a "death bed confession" from her, but were too late.
-Penny allegedly had failed a polygraph test around 1994, and when interrogated, asked the FBI "If Emo and I are responsible for Anthonette's disappearance, would I go to jail"
-Penny and Wendy would self medicate with drugs throughout the 90s, even though Wendy did not turn 18 until 1999, the year Penny died.
-there is a lot of talk Anthonette was taken to Mexico, and married off illegally, possibly to a cartel member.
-One of Anthonette's aunts disappeared a couple of years after she went missing for quite a period of time. Anthonettes Aunt was found in Mexico, and brought back to the US.


Also, why did UM not get hold of the FBI info on Penny's confession, was that not available after 1994?

The original segment aired before the main FBI interrogation of Penny. I believe the episode ran during the 91-92 season, IIRC.

There is a whole different side of things to the Baskin story. One that makes the parents look like monsters. I don't buy that theory, and think the Baskin children got fed a lot of false rumors growing up about their parents, but it does surprise me that this was not part of the segment at least.

I remember seeing one of the Baskin kids post here as an adult and it didn't convince me the grandparents were any less guilty and the son sounded like he had Stockholm Syndrome. We will never know the whole truth but from what I gathered the parents had some wacky beliefs but that is not a crime, not a reason to strip parental rights and they were extensively investigated by authorities without any charges, all during the height of the Satanic Panic.

I would LOVE to hear from their youngest son, the one who was not kidnapped. Either way I am sure there is a LOT more to this story and either the parents or grandparents are monsters.

I agree and lean toward the grandparents being wrong here.

Edt

Anna Marie Anton. Not one real life photograph of her was shown. I find that odd.

https://images.findagrave.com/photos/2025/349/101376171_01fc529e-20cb-4927-a847-beeed487f858.jpeg

Anna Anton from 1980

Maybe not withheld by UM, but curious to hear the results of Elvis' autopsy results that were safeguarded by his father.

David Stone-I read somewhere that he was on his way to a wedding, not the way it was portrayed on UM.

Patsy Wright-Appeared to be doing horse cutting training around the time of her murder. it was alleged that she may have gotten very close with another couple that were involved with helping her on the ranch where she was training. that was something I read in a Dallas Observer article (I think it was dallas observer). This also connected to the extra dinner plate in her room raised questions about details that were left off of the segment. Especially when you add in the phone call from an unknown lady shortly after Patsy died.

I remember seeing one of the Baskin kids post here as an adult and it didn't convince me the grandparents were any less guilty and the son sounded like he had Stockholm Syndrome. We will never know the whole truth but from what I gathered the parents had some wacky beliefs but that is not a crime, not a reason to strip parental rights and they were extensively investigated by authorities without any charges, all during the height of the Satanic Panic.

I would LOVE to hear from their youngest son, the one who was not kidnapped. Either way I am sure there is a LOT more to this story and either the parents or grandparents are monsters.

I remember reading the Baskin son posting on here too defending his grandfather and having no interest in meeting his parents again. Not sure if that changed, but he was adamant, as was his sister (according to him). Which means he also didn't want to meet his brother, or even the other child the Baskin family adopted after they were kidnapped. I never got the feeling that he was anything more than just as you said "Stockholm Syndrome". I got the feeling he was deathly afraid that the things he was told his entire life would turn out to be a lie. Sometimes people prefer the lie over the truth. And even if it would be true about his parents, why not confront them? You can't tell me you wouldn't be waiting your whole life to do that and give them a middle finger, right? But I always have felt he's been brainwashed.

I remember reading the Baskin son posting on here too defending his grandfather and having no interest in meeting his parents again. Not sure if that changed, but he was adamant, as was his sister (according to him). Which means he also didn't want to meet his brother, or even the other child the Baskin family adopted after they were kidnapped. I never got the feeling that he was anything more than just as you said "Stockholm Syndrome". I got the feeling he was deathly afraid that the things he was told his entire life would turn out to be a lie. Sometimes people prefer the lie over the truth. And even if it would be true about his parents, why not confront them? You can't tell me you wouldn't be waiting your whole life to do that and give them a middle finger, right? But I always have felt he's been brainwashed.

Yeah, though he seemed sincere and normal, the excuse that he gave for not meeting his brother is what did it for me that something was not quite right. He said he feared being ambushed by his parents. Even if you feared that you could talk to him on the phone or on social media. And as an adult now its not like they can do much to him.

This type of irrational reasoning to me does lend credence to the brainwashing theory.

What makes far more sense is he is afraid of Michael coming off seemingly normal and not someone who was abused and finding out he had lived a lie for so long.

Everything about the Cayedito case, was butchered by the Unsolved Mysteries reenactment.

Penny was portrayed as a clean cut, responsible mother. Here are some things I've learned about Penny in the past 15 years:

-Penny was into drugs, and sold drugs It was not uncommon for cars to arrive at the Cayedito residence for a short period of time, and leave, usually late at night or early in the morning.
-Penny would often stay out all night at local bars (she was drinking at a local bar until at least midnight when Anthonette was abducted)
-The was an FBI raid on Penny's residence a couple of weeks before Anthonette was abducted. They were looking for drugs
-Penny often invited strange men into her home, and may have been involved in the sex trade
-Witness sightings of Anthonette were most common in the months after she was abducted, yet the show only paid attention to a tip that came nearly 5 years after Anthonette went missing, and treated it as the most credible
-Penny was not forthcoming to investigators, and had a "care-free" attitude, which was unusual for a mother of a missing child
-Penny did not disclose all the gifts the man "Emo" gave to Anthonette immediately prior to her disappearance
-Penny attempted suicide shortly after Anthonette went missing
-Wendy, who was 5 years old when Anthonette went missing, told investigators years later that she witnessed Anthonette's kidnapping, which is in contrast to the middle child Sadie had said (they did not witness any abduction)
-Wendy was known in school as a bully and habitual liar. She also went on to join gangs, and became a drug addict by her teens
-allegedly, Penny had purchased a new vehicle shortly after Anthonette went missing, which was unusual since the family was impoverished, and lived in the poorest areas of Gallop. Penny also had mentioned that Anthonette was "becoming a problem" (most likely she started to wise up to the lifestyle choices of her mother), and confined in people that she had sold Anthonette off for drugs and money.
-Penny was never ruled out as a suspect, and through the 90s, until her death in 1999, was the prime suspect in Anthonette's disappearance.
-In 1999, Penny became seriously ill, and died in April. Investigators rushed to obtain a "death bed confession" from her, but were too late.
-Penny allegedly had failed a polygraph test around 1994, and when interrogated, asked the FBI "If Emo and I are responsible for Anthonette's disappearance, would I go to jail"
-Penny and Wendy would self medicate with drugs throughout the 90s, even though Wendy did not turn 18 until 1999, the year Penny died.
-there is a lot of talk Anthonette was taken to Mexico, and married off illegally, possibly to a cartel member.
-One of Anthonette's aunts disappeared a couple of years after she went missing for quite a period of time. Anthonettes Aunt was found in Mexico, and brought back to the US.




The original segment aired before the main FBI interrogation of Penny. I believe the episode ran during the 91-92 season, IIRC.

Wow, thank you for this trove of information. Hardly the saintly picture that UM portrayed. The program was brilliant, but not without its flaws. TBF, victims' families do not need to be saints for us to want justice for their loved ones.

Wow, thank you for this trove of information. Hardly the saintly picture that UM portrayed. The program was brilliant, but not without its flaws. TBF, victims' families do not need to be saints for us to want justice for their loved ones.

Agreed.

Unfortunately as each episode featured three to four segments, there was only about 15 minutes to tell each story. The producers had to pick and choose information. That said, there are lots of cases I wish had more information. I wish the Anthonette Cayadito segment focused more on Penny and less on the couple at the cafe with the girl dropping forks. I don’t think that was Anthonette but it sounded more mysterious than Penny’s drug use. They left out that Theresa and Paul Stamper had a child; the criminal history of Angelo Desideri (they painted him as a saint); some sort of interview with the family of Randall Utterback; and there was TONS of information left out of the John Branion story.