Was it Jimmie Walker? Esther Rolle? John Amos? Janet Jackson? CBS? Who do you think was most responsible for this once great sitcoms quality and ultimate demise?

I disagree with the question's premise.

I don't think Good Times was 'ruined'. Sure it wasn't the same show at the end, and I really wish that Amos hadn't left so early, but there were still some laughs to be found and it didn't really go much further than it should have, IMHO.

I think Walker's breakout status kind of skewed the story away from the family a bit, and the character of Keith was kind of ill-conceived. But despite all this, the show started and ended being about a family struggling to get by in 1970's Chicago, so on that basis is didn't change enough for me to say it was "ruined".

Jimmy Carter

I'd say taking the show in the direction they did was a bad decision. I believe that the powers that be should've listened to John Amos and Esther Rolle when it came to story content and character development.

I think John Amos's departure was the beginning of the end of the show. The last few seasons seemed to lack something. Also Jimmie Walker's goofyness got pretty tiresome, and I think people wanted him to grow up some.

I loved this show and no doubt it would've stayed a hit if Amos stayed. I respectfully disagree with you Retro4Life, because too many backstage fights and egos led to its demise.

I loved this show and no doubt it would've stayed a hit if Amos stayed. I respectfully disagree with you Retro4Life, because too many backstage fights and egos led to its demise.
Agreed.

I agree the last couple seasons weren't nearly as strong, no argument there. I just think "ruined" is a bit strong a word for it.

On another level, one could argue that by killing off Amos (which as I said, I didn't support) the show COULD have focused on how the family was to survive without the patriarch and for a while they did that. But I would have liked to have seen more shows revolve around J.J.'s attempts to take his father's mantle and the pressure he felt, etc. Instead they chose to make him more and more buffoonish, which in retrospect was a mistake.

But I do think the opportunity for something greater was there, even after Amos left.

I stopped watching when Thelma married the dummy.

I stopped watching when Thelma married the dummy.
Lamont Sanford?? (KIDDING!!!) :rofl:

Lamont Sanford?? (KIDDING!!!) :rofl:
She said dummy not big dummy! :lol:

She said dummy not big dummy! :lol:
Well, OK! :lol:

I personally think that the powers that be at CBS ruined it.If they had just left it the way it was first season(they all had equal star billing-)they'd have been better off,but in second and third (especially third)season,they tried to capitalize on the popularity of The Fonz on "Happy Days",and make "Good Times" the"J.J."show.Because in the credits for first season of "Good Times",they said "Starring Esther Rolle,John Amos,with Bernadette Stanis,Ralph Carter,Jimmie Walker".HOWEVER,the credits for second (and as I said,)and especially third,the credits read "Starring Esther Rolle,John Amos,with Bernadette Stanis,Ralph Carter"AND "Jimmie Walker as "J.J".No wonder John Amos and (later on,but briefly)the late Esther Rolle quit.

Jimmie Walker.

When the producers and writers began throwing the focus of the series towards "J.J." around 1975, that's when it started to slowly "unravel". He may have become the most popular reason to watch the show, but it came at the expense of everyone else in the cast. John Amos was disgusted enough with "The J.J. Show" to leave in '76, followed by Esther Rolle in '77. She only returned in 1978 when promised that "J.J."- and Jimmie- would be "toned down", and that the scripts would focus more on her (and the rest of the cast). By then, it was too late. Ratings had deteriorated to the point where the series barely managed to survive the season before its cancellation in 1979.

Incidentally, the "dummy" 'Pitooey' is referring to, is Ben Powers as "Keith Anderson" during the final season- the aspiring football player whom J.J. unintentionally injures shortly after his wedding to Thelma, but recovers in time to be accepted by the Chicago Bears in the final episode.


:tv:

^ Yeah, I know the "dummy" she meant was Keith. I actually kind of liked him (except when he was drunk and slapped Thelma - but it did lead to Bern Nadette Stanis' finest moment of the whole series where Thelma lets Keith have it). Plus I thought that Ben Powers was cute. :cool:

I think there were about 3 episodes from the last season that didn't even make it to air on CBS. They were only seen once the show went into syndication and DVDs.

The beginning of the end was when they killed off John Amos. I blame the demise of the show on Amos and Esther Rolle though. They could have learned a thing or two from how Ron Howard delt with Henry Winkler's fame on Happy Days. Jimmie Walker was the break out star of the show. He was the reason it was so popular. I know it isn't popular to say nowadays but it was back then. Another thing I think hurt was that James was barely mentioned again after he was killed off. It was like "Who was He?" The producers went out of their way to make it the JJ show at the expense of the other characters so it all backfired on Amos and Rolle anyway. And I hated the Keith character. He was the absolute worse actor on the show.

I blame the demise of the show on Amos and Esther Rolle though. They could have learned a thing or two from how Ron Howard delt with Henry Winkler's fame on Happy Days.
Please explain about Ron Howard and Henry Winkler. I don't know the story.

And I also vote for James being killed off. The show went downhill fast then. :(

I'm sorry John Amos left, but the real downhill blow to me was when Esther Rolle followed him. At least she returned. Janet Jackson was a fine addition to the series. Johnny Brown (Bookman), shouldn't have been made a regular. The fat jokes and bashing of him got old, getting to the point that it wasn't funny. Ben Powers was okay, and I'm glad Ja'net Dubois stayed on through the show's run..

Please explain about Ron Howard and Henry Winkler. I don't know the story.

And I also vote for James being killed off. The show went downhill fast then. :(
I belive it was in the beginning of the 3rd season when ABC and the producers wanted to increase Henry Winkler's screen time. They moved him up to second billing in the opening credits. They had to get Ron Howard and Tom Bosley's permission to do this because it was in their contracts. They both agreed because it was the best thing for the show. Winkler was hot at that time. He was even bigger than Jimmie Walker in the 70's. The original premise of the show was that Ron Howard was the star and the show revolved around his HS adventures. It changed after that. While Howard was still the star ,the show started to revolve around his and his friend's relationship with Fonzie played by Winkler. After Howard left the show, Winkler became the star. Ron Howard never complained. He excepted it and he and Winkler were good friends. I truly believe that if the Fonzie character never took off, HD would have been canceled after 3 or 4 years. It was not that highly rated in the beginning. Good Times took off because of Jimmie Walker. Yes the whole cast was important but he was the breakout star. The show started to suffer after they killed off Amos. It left the show a void that they never could replace. I believe that if Amos and Rolle hadn't taken all of this to the press, things might have been different. They might have been able to influence some stories. As it was, it became the J.J. show. The cast became weaker in the later years after Rolle left and then they brought Keith in. I think if things would have stayed the same, Good Times could have lasted for 8 or 9 years.

I remember when J J was in all those fan magazines back then. At the same time there were these other young actors competing for the fan's attention. It was...............

Freddie Prinze from Chico and the man
John Travolta from Welcome back Kotter
David Cassidy from the Partridge family
Bobby Sherman from Here come the brides

J J was huge back then......

Too bad John Amos and Esther Rolle didn't stay. I really liked them on the show.

Ron Howard is a true gentleman and a true Hollywood star.

I'm sorry John Amos left, but the real downhill blow to me was when Esther Rolle followed him. At least she returned. Janet Jackson was a fine addition to the series. Johnny Brown (Bookman), shouldn't have been made a regular. The fat jokes and bashing of him got old, getting to the point that it wasn't funny. Ben Powers was okay, and I'm glad Ja'net Dubois stayed on through the show's run..
I have to wonder how Johnny Brown (Bookman) felt about all those fat jokes. I don't know if he really was overweight in real life or just wore a fat pad (I tend to think it was the former). Even though it was his character who was the "Buffalo Butt" of the jokes, you have to think it may have hurt. I know it was just an acting job and he was being paid for it, but still...

I think it was the producers who were responsible for the demise of the show, they did not do what was best for the show. They could have toned down the JJ character but they chose not too, there is a thing of too much of a good thing. People will tire of it and it was evident in season 5 and 6.

Another factor is that there were several executive producers/producers during the 6-season run. Each has their own vision for the show, and can ruin any kind of consistency.

Here are the executive producers of Good Times:

Norman Lear (seasons 1-2)
Allan Manings (seasons 3-4)
Austin and Irma Kalish (season 5)
Norman Paul (season 6)

Here are the producers:

Allan Manings (season 1-2)
Jack Elinson (season 3)
Norman Paul (season 3)
Austin and Irma Kalish (season 4)
Lloyd Turner (season 5)
Gordon Mitchell (season 5)
Sid Dorfman (season 6)

Thank you, Clint Eastwood Fan. :wave:

I have to wonder how Johnny Brown (Bookman) felt about all those fat jokes. I don't know if he really was overweight in real life or just wore a fat pad (I tend to think it was the former). Even though it was his character who was the "Buffalo Butt" of the jokes, you have to think it may have hurt. I know it was just an acting job and he was being paid for it, but still...



Johnny Brown is really fat. Before he was on Good Times he was on Laugh In, and he was big on that show too.

Johnny Brown is really fat. Before he was on Good Times he was on Laugh In, and he was big on that show too.
OK - I never saw him on that show. Thanks.

It just seemed like all the other characters on the show were down right cruel to him. Constantly calling him "Buffalo Butt" and "Booger". Only Florida would sometimes show compassion for him.

Was it Jimmie Walker? Esther Rolle? John Amos? Janet Jackson? CBS? Who do you think was most responsible for this once great sitcoms quality and ultimate demise?


The writers because

1. they refuse expand the roles of the kids once esther rolle and john amos left

2. once penny was added they gave her too big of role

3. Never any progress shown financialy always the same bad luck

I belive it was in the beginning of the 3rd season when ABC and the producers wanted to increase Henry Winkler's screen time. They moved him up to second billing in the opening credits. They had to get Ron Howard and Tom Bosley's permission to do this because it was in their contracts. They both agreed because it was the best thing for the show. Winkler was hot at that time. He was even bigger than Jimmie Walker in the 70's. The original premise of the show was that Ron Howard was the star and the show revolved around his HS adventures. It changed after that. While Howard was still the star ,the show started to revolve around his and his friend's relationship with Fonzie played by Winkler. After Howard left the show, Winkler became the star. Ron Howard never complained. He excepted it and he and Winkler were good friends. I truly believe that if the Fonzie character never took off, HD would have been canceled after 3 or 4 years. It was not that highly rated in the beginning. Good Times took off because of Jimmie Walker. Yes the whole cast was important but he was the breakout star. The show started to suffer after they killed off Amos. It left the show a void that they never could replace. I believe that if Amos and Rolle hadn't taken all of this to the press, things might have been different. They might have been able to influence some stories. As it was, it became the J.J. show. The cast became weaker in the later years after Rolle left and then they brought Keith in. I think if things would have stayed the same, Good Times could have lasted for 8 or 9 years.

The network also wanted to change the show to Fonzie's Happy Days, which Garry Marshall vetoed and the network also wanted to spinoff Fonzie into his own show, which Henry Winkler vetoed. He felt that the reason Fonzie was popular was because he was on Happy Days with that cast and he felt no need to fix something that wasn't broken.

The network also wanted to change the show to Fonzie's Happy Days, which Garry Marshall vetoed and the network also wanted to spinoff Fonzie into his own show, which Henry Winkler vetoed. He felt that the reason Fonzie was popular was because he was on Happy Days with that cast and he felt no need to fix something that wasn't broken.
And he was right. Fonzie wouldn't have worked outside of HD.

And he was right. Fonzie wouldn't have worked outside of HD.
Exactly! Fonzie needed the Cunninghams.

And he was right. Fonzie wouldn't have worked outside of HD.

That would have been the quickest way to kill off the character's popularity.

Unless you were around in 1976, it's hard to understand how popular Fonzie and Happy Days was back then. Henry Winkler was on so many magazine covers, it was hard to keep count. Mego issued Happy Days action figures -- guess who sold the most?

When I went to school on Wednesdays, the first thing we talked about during recess was "Did you watch Happy Days last night?"

Next year, we added Charlie's Angels to the list of must-see fifth grade shows.;)

That would have been the quickest way to kill off the character's popularity.

Unless you were around in 1976, it's hard to understand how popular Fonzie and Happy Days was back then. Henry Winkler was on so many magazine covers, it was hard to keep count. Mego issued Happy Days action figures -- guess who sold the most?

When I went to school on Wednesdays, the first thing we talked about during recess was "Did you watch Happy Days last night?"

Next year, we added Charlie's Angels to the list of must-see fifth grade shows.;)
The same thing happened at my school. I remember when the Fonz jumped over those garbage cans. It was the talk of the school. I had a HD lunch box. Heck I used to run around the house imitating him. :lol: I remember in chorus, one of the songs we sang was the theme to HD.

I went to a Catholic school in fourth and fifth grade. HD was so popular by the third season, ABC was airing reruns as part of their daytime schedule Mon-Fri. The nuns used to let us watch Happy Days while we ate lunch.

About the only cool part of going to a parochial school.

That would have been the quickest way to kill off the character's popularity.

Unless you were around in 1976, it's hard to understand how popular Fonzie and Happy Days was back then. Henry Winkler was on so many magazine covers, it was hard to keep count. Mego issued Happy Days action figures -- guess who sold the most?

When I went to school on Wednesdays, the first thing we talked about during recess was "Did you watch Happy Days last night?"

Next year, we added Charlie's Angels to the list of must-see fifth grade shows.;)
ABC was really on a roll in the mid/late 70s. At that same time, they also had Barney Miller, Laverne & Shirley, Eight is Enough, Family, Three's Company, Soap, Taxi...back when TV was actually GOOD.

ABC was really on a roll in the mid/late 70s. At that same time, they also had Barney Miller, Laverne & Shirley, Eight is Enough, Family, Three's Company, Soap, Taxi...back when TV was actually GOOD.
ABC was my favorite network back in the late 70's.

Dont forget about Starsky And Hutch on ABC which was Huge :wave:

ABC was my favorite network back in the late 70's.

Dont forget about Starsky And Hutch on ABC which was Huge :wave:
That was one of my favorite shows. :)

Dont forget about Starsky And Hutch on ABC which was Huge :wave:
Oh, definitely. :cool:

Gary Marshall is who really destroyed Good Times. When Good Times was airing on Tuesday Nights Happy Days and Laverne and Shirley has not started yet but once they did Happy Days started to become pouplar. Then CBS moved GT from the 8pm slot to the 8:30pm slot and then Laverne and Shirley became popular and GT never recovered after having a solid second season.

ABC was really on a roll in the mid/late 70s. At that same time, they also had Barney Miller, Laverne & Shirley, Eight is Enough, Family, Three's Company, Soap, Taxi...back when TV was actually GOOD.

And Monika, as someone who was there when all those good shows were on their networks runs, it was special. Never to be repeated again.

The seventies was a golden decade for TV. It will never be repeated again.

And Monika, as someone who was there when all those good shows were on their networks runs, it was special. Never to be repeated again.

The seventies was a golden decade for TV. It will never be repeated again.
Again, thank goodness for DVDs and websites like hulu and YouTube that has these old episodes. :nod:

Again, thank goodness for DVDs and websites like hulu and YouTube that has these old episodes. :nod:

I read that in 1973, CBS showed Bob Newhart, All In The Family and M*A*S*H back to back on Saturday nights. I would love to find out which episodes they aired and try to recreate that some Saturday night.

It would be great if the original CBS promos and commercials that aired during those broadcasts could be found too, but ya can't have everything...;)

I read that in 1973, CBS showed Bob Newhart, All In The Family and M*A*S*H back to back on Saturday nights. I would love to find out which episodes they aired and try to recreate that some Saturday night.

It would be great if the original CBS promos and commercials that aired during those broadcasts could be found too, but ya can't have everything...;)
Well, websites like imdb list the TV shows and original episode airdates, so you might try that...

Well, websites like imdb list the TV shows and original episode airdates, so you might try that...

Yeah, but then I'd have to buy all those DVD box sets!

Yeah, but then I'd have to buy all those DVD box sets!
True. :lol:

Hate to say it, but John Amos. James and Florida were really the heart of the show and once he left, everything went downhill.

But, Keith ruined the show for good :barf:

Hate to say it, but John Amos. James and Florida were really the heart of the show and once he left, everything went downhill.

But, Keith ruined the show for good :barf:


you mean Penny ruined the show

John Amos getting fired was bad enough, but the final nail in the coffin was Esther Rolle departing the season after. Even though she came back a year later, the damage was done and the show was cancelled later that season.

And to make matters worse, she left poor Carl in Arizona. No explanation, no phone calls. I wonder if he's still there, wondering if Florida will ever come back to him...:D

Didn't Carl end up dying of cancer?

I liked Penny for the most part, although she really wasn't needed.

Didn't Carl end up dying of cancer?

I liked Penny for the most part, although she really wasn't needed.
They never explained whatever happened to Carl. They kept going as if he didn't exist - which also happened to Chuck Cunningham, Judy Winslow, etc. :crazy:

They never explained whatever happened to Carl. They kept going as if he didn't exist - which also happened to Chuck Cunningham, Judy Winslow, etc. :crazy:

In 1980, TV Guide (when it was actually a magazine about TV) published a great article about characters that went into sitcom limbo. One of the characters referenced was Trapper John, even though the character had recently been revived by Pernell Roberts. Chuck Cunningham was referenced also.

So, these characters are living in sitcom limbo.

Although Garry Marshall later explained that Chuck Cunningham went on a basketball scholarship to outer Mongolia.

It was also never explained what happened to Chrissy Snow (Three's Company). She went to go care for her sick mother, but never came back and there was no goodbye, no nothing.

In 1980, TV Guide (when it was actually a magazine about TV) published a great article about characters that went into sitcom limbo. One of the characters referenced was Trapper John, even though the character had recently been revived by Pernell Roberts. Chuck Cunningham was referenced also.

So, these characters are living in sitcom limbo.

Although Garry Marshall later explained that Chuck Cunningham went on a basketball scholarship to outer Mongolia.

It was also never explained what happened to Chrissy Snow (Three's Company). She went to go care for her sick mother, but never came back and there was no goodbye, no nothing.


I think we were supposed tio make up our conclusion about Chrissy snow


"Chrissy's Mother condition never improved enough for Chrissy to leave her to care for herself so she decided not to return to live with Jack and Janet"