This case has always bothered me. As a rule when watching UM I try to surmise the most logical outcome of a case and go from there. With this case it's pretty simple. Mosser arrived at the home of her ex-boyfriend and after failing to get him to reconcile with her, threatened to kill herself. She then went out to her boyfriend's car, grabbed a shotgun and made good on her threat.

What makes me personally believe this is a suicide is that the probability of a stranger coming along and shooting Mosser within the few minutes between her conversation with her boyfriend and the act of shooting herself is extremely unlikely. That leads me to believe that either Rae Ann Mosser killed herself or someone who was in her company in the moments before she died killed her.

What makes this case so bizarre is that Rae Ann's parents make a very credible case that Mosser did not commit suicide despite the overwhelming logical explanation that she did. They took measurements of the gun and got several experts to perform tests which showed that due to the way Rae Ann was positioned when she allegedly shot herself that she would've been unable to pull the trigger of the shotgun by herself and inflict the type of wound she received.

Eventually Rae Ann's cause of death was changed from suicide to undetermined. Although I am of the belief that Mosser committed suicide, I think there are several questions that are still left open with this case. Thoughts?

Hmm, I personally lean against suicide in this instance. I am no firearms expert, but I would think if the trajectory of the shotgun slug were to be determined it would be more obvious. But this is a situation to where, well, first off, whose shot gun was it? I had the impression that it was the Mossor's shot gun. However that fact was not revealed for sure in the segment. However, while not impossible, it is hard for someone to kill themselves with a shotgun, the gun was too long for her to have pulled the trigger with her fingers, which means that she could have fired it with her toe. However one problem there. She was laying in a position right next to the car, parallel to her boyfriend's car. Yet the gun was resting perfectly on the top of the trunk? I mean, had she shot herself, the gun would have fallen to the ground and not landed on the top of the trunk. The way the gun was placed there, it looked like someone had set the gun there. It was the way someone would lay down a gun, not the way that a gun would fall if someone killed themselves and the gun just dropped.

Now, is there enough here to charge the boyfriend or anyone with homicide? No. It is kind of a frustrating case, but I feel undetermined is the right ruling. There is not enough to show there is a suicide and not enough to show it is a homicide either, however there are some disturbing questions here. Such as, it is pretty obvious if the gun had fallen to the ground, someone moved it before the police got there and put it on the trunk. The question is, who was it and why would they move it?

Also something else that never really added up to me. Now it is easy to second guess after the fact and play Monday morning quarterback, however, the boyfriend's story about 'what do I have to do to prove my love to you, kill myself?' I don't know, that just does not fly to me. I mean I get people do irrational, stupid stuff, but okay, let's just say for the sake of argument that she really did say that and that these three witnesses who allegedly overheard this, lets say all of them are telling the truth, even so, it seems mighty interesting how someone that was allegedly so hell bent on offing herself, I mean, why did no one try to stop her from doing this? I also find it strange that while all these people allegedly overheard this, none of them saw her shoot herself.

the lack of an apparent motive, suspect and the deceased's statement regarding killing herself all point to suicide.

Initially, the issue of could she have killed herself given the trajectory, placement of the gun and stuff related to this did bother me, but it was the weapon that happened to be around, and she probably didn't have any alternatives in regard to which weapons to use. She probably found a way to make it work since nothing else was available.

Another nagging question I have is: who would have known about the shotgun in her car except her? It's probably not something she went around telling everybody.

here's something I just thought of: what if the boyfriend realized she was about to committ suicide tried to discourage her by taking the gun away but it ended up going off somehow?

Hmm, that is an interesting point Wiseguy. If I were to buy suicide, that would be the theory that would make the most sense. That she was running around all crazy with that gun threatening to off herself and he tried to take it away from her and she was irrational and fighting him and it went off. He then panicked, thinking people would think he shot her but he picked up the gun and put it on the trunk. Basically to me, regardless if one thinks this was suicide or homicide or whatever, it is obvious that someone moved that gun.

My gut feeling always was that this was a suicide. I feel this way because we have witness testimony that she apparently threatened the act, and then did it with a gun that very likely belonged to her - UM didn't specify where the gun came from but I assume that if it's owner couldn't be identified with certainty, that would be yet another nail in the coffin for the murder theory and it would have been raised on the segment; not unlike Tony Lombardi and why I feel it's safe to assume that the gun belonged to him - or at least belonged in the house.

Also, like Dante said, if we accept the witness testimony at face value, then there basically had to be an unknown party lurking around out there, with no known motive, who just happened to strike in close proximity to witnesses, at a time she was already threatening suicide, and somehow remain undetected. Seems pretty far-fetched.

HOWEVER, there was another thread on this case some time ago and Todd Mueller(?) posted on it and made a good point - we have three experts hired by the family who said she couldn't have pulled the trigger herself. If it's physically impossible for her to hold the gun in such a manner as to inflict the wounds that she had, it has to be a murder, or at least "undetermined" until proven otherwise.

As others have raised, I wonder just how credible the boyfriend and the other witnesses were who allegedly heard her make these statements really were. UM didn't touch on it in any depth. If these people were close to her at the time she allegedly shot herself, they would be key to determining what actually happened.

I wonder if the parents suspect the boyfriend or witnesses but just don't have the evidence to say so and that's why this was seemingly avoided like the plague on the UM segment.

Well I would assume the latter. It is like in any other case where someone assumed someone else did something but because the person thought of had not been charged their name was not mentioned. It was because they (the accuser) was afraid of a defamation civil suit which would have been easy to file if you are accused of murder when you have not been charged or accused of covering something up if you have not been charged.

However, I find it somewhat odd, that people assume someone could not be murdered with their own gun. It has happened many times where people have been murdered with their own weapon. In this case, it could have been an accidental shooting. The problem I have with the suicide theory in this case, is how did she fire the weapon and then how did the weapon happen to be resting perfectly on the trunk while she was laying parallel to the car? I mean, the gun would just not have fallen that way had she shot herself. So clearly at the very least someone moved the gun before the police got there.

I just listened to this story in my car today (yes I drive to audio recordings of UM...) and did I miss something? Was the boyfriend tested for gun powder residue?

Still confused about whose gun it was.

I have doubts about the suicide due to the bullet trajectory but there isn't enough evidence to charge anyone or rule it a homicide...so I agree with Kadrmas, the only thing that makes sense is undetermined.

This is one of those cases where you almost feel there has to be more than the broadcast told.

I mean there are a helluva lot easier ways for a girl to kill herself than taking a 12 gauge shotgun thats longer than her arms.

The boyfriend's story about "what do I have to do to prove my love to you kill myself?" Doesn't that sound awful fishy to anyone else?

I mean she is laying dead outside his house shot with his shotgun and he is not even a suspect? Am I missing something here?

fascinating discussion on this case, previously:

http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?t=212458

And just as a petty PSA, the correct spelling is "Mossor" - for anyone intent on searching this forum, Google, etc. Probably a lot of hits could be found with "Mosser", though.

Thank you! I didn't know how to spell her name, and Google didn't have any hits other than this forum with the way I spelled it.

Correct if I am wrong, but isn't it only the testimony of Rae Ann's boyfriend and his family that says she threatened suicide?

Exceedingly bizarre, has to be more to this case than the broadcast said.

Correct if I am wrong, but isn't it only the testimony of Rae Ann's boyfriend and his family that says she threatened suicide?

Exceedingly bizarre, has to be more to this case than the broadcast said.

Don't ask me why, but the "broomstick recreation" that the actual Mom and Dad did in the kitchen - that was all I needed to hear, to lean heavily towards "no way in hell was it a suicide".

I was also skeptical of the suicide angle, based on the position of the shotgun and impossibility for a woman of Mossor's size to have caused a self inflicted wound in that manner. The only thing to counterbalance that is the witness testimony -- none of them claim to have seen her with the shotgun. UM doesn't mention the witnesses' relationship to Mossor or her boyfriend.

By their claim, Mossor threatened suicide, she then left the house, put her key in the her car ignition, turned on her radio, and at some point gets the shotgun (who does it belong to?) and goes by her boyfriend's car. A shot is heard, the boyfriend and the witnesses are not on the scene when police arrive, but in his house? Who called in to report the shooting -- if it was the boyfriend or witnesses wouldn't you check her condition?

There's also no mention of the background of Mossor's relationship with the boyfriend either. Was there any history of violence or arguments between them? Had the boyfriend ever threatened Mossor, or anyone else, with a weapon? Had Mossor ever threatened suicide before other witnesses? I think the argument was the motive for a possible homicide, but UM left out, in my opinion, pertinent information.

I also don't buy into the accidental discharge theory while trying to shoot out her boyfriend's car windows.

Unless the girl was a total idiot, I can't imagine how she could manage to accidentally shoot herself right in the chest while trying to shoot something else.

I personally feel this case is a clear cut one of police incompetence and sorriness. It goes on all across the country, they want to write deaths off as suicide because they are to lazy to investigate it.

I mean if some private investigator can figure out the impossibility of a shotgun discharging, the police should have been able to as well.

W/O knowing more evidence as far Rae Ann Mossor's mental state, how her relationship w/ her ex-boyfriend was and why she was at her ex's home that night,IMHO,it's not possible to make a judgment.

The segment I saw concentrated mainly on the how the shotgun might not been able to be used in the manner suggested. Not whether there was any GSR on Rae Ann's hands not whether the shotgun was pressed against her body and the main question I have: whose weapon was it?

Anybody heard/read anything about this case recently?

guns do discharge accidentally. Recall the case of Don Hamilton, which originally aired shortly before this segment originally aired. He was shot when he accidentally lost control of his gun, and I'm assuming his rifle was of similar size to the shotgun in this case.

There you can keep it a mystery even thou it wasn't.

Let me give you some info on this. It was her bf gun and her bf said it was a suicide because of the fight. The truth is she was trying to leave him because he was a drug dealer and was heavy into drugs. She was trying to get out of that life style. She was going to turn him into the police. When she tried to leave him he got violent. She is dead because she wanted to change her life. The gun was to long for her to even reach the trigger specially for the shot. The gun was also laying on the car where the bf said it landed while she was laying on the ground. Her mental state was fine. This caused a great deal of pain for our family. Specially, since he was not put in jail for his crime. I am her cousin by the way.

Ummm...do you have any actual sources for the above information?
Anybody can come online and claim to be anyone they want to.

Here are a few more things:

1) If she was "trying to leave him" why was she at his house at night?
2) If it was his gun, why did he leave it at the crime scene?
3) Why didn't the program mention that it was his gun?
4) If she was using drugs as you have stated, how could her mental state be "fine" as you have claimed?
5) Were you an actual witness to any of these events (if you are who you claim to be) or are you repeating things that another person (or other people) have told you?

Again, if you are who claim that you are, then you shouldn't mind providing sources and proof of your "facts."

Nah you don't have to believe me. She is my cousin that is all I am going to say because I can't prove it. Its not really something our family talks about anymore. Those were just what I remember from it. She might have been into drugs but she wasn't crazy.

boy I don't know. It would seem to me that if the boyfriend was suspicious or was into bad stuff, the parents would have mentioned that in the segment, but they ddn't. It's telling that the parents don't list any suspects or theories what may have happened to her. I think that says alot right there.

boy I don't know. It would seem to me that if the boyfriend was suspicious or was into bad stuff, the parents would have mentioned that in the segment, but they ddn't. It's telling that the parents don't list any suspects or theories what may have happened to her. I think that says alot right there.

I see two possibilities here...

First, I suppose it's possible that Rae Ann's parents do suspect the boyfriend killed her or was involved in her death in some capacity, but they lack the evidence to accuse him directly/publicly. I think we have to suspect the boyfriend because if she truly was murdered, nothing else really makes sense. It's almost absurd to think that some unknown third party was lurking in the shadows waiting to do harm to Rae Ann and decided to strike at this precise moment. I'll go so far as to say I think it's impossible. The only logical suspects then are the people who were known to be with Rae Ann in the moments before her death - the boyfriend. I'm sure the boyfriend and whomever else was present at the time were questioned thoroughly by the police and since her death was ultimately ruled a suicide, it's reasonable to assume that these folks were all cleared as suspects. That being said, the parents are back to square one in the sense that the burden is now on them to disprove the suicide ruling, hence the hiring of all these experts and the clinical direction the UM segment goes in, as well as the lack of a more direct accusation.

The second possibility is that the information provided by the boyfriend/witnesses so strongly supports the official ruling of suicide and UM glossed that over to make the story more mysterious. I would have to watch the segment again to be sure, but didn't other people hear Rae Ann's exclamation "what do I have to do to prove my love to you? Kill myself?" (paraphrase)? Who were these people? Suppose for the sake of argument that they were neighbors who really had no connection or relationship with Rae Ann or the boyfriend. If that is true, then they don't have much (or any) reason to lie about what they heard and their testimony regarding her actions/comments strongly point toward suicide. Even with the expert testimony, the story would come off weak, in my opinion. So UM mentions the testimony, but does so only in passing, and the witnesses aren't named nor do they appear on camera so the viewer can judge their credibility.

I think the key to figuring this out would be to find out who else heard Rae Ann make these comments and what their relationship (if any) was to her and the boyfriend. Without knowing more details, it's hard to say whether she was murdered and I'd just be guessing as to what really took place, but it's not even an educated guess.

The guy who posted last night claiming to be a cousin of Rae Ann's makes a case for my first argument. However, I now see that he has edited/deleted his posts, so I guess we're back to theories and assumptions.

Nah you don't have to believe me. She is my cousin that is all I am going to say because I can't prove it. Its not really something our family talks about anymore. Those were just what I remember from it. She might have been into drugs but she wasn't crazy.

I know that I don't have to believe you.
You come on a forum where people are expressing opinions claiming that you have FACTS, and then provide none of those "facts" when you are asked to.

Since you won't even provide proof that you are who you are claiming to be, then your postings are pretty useless, aren't they?

I see two possibilities here...

First, I suppose it's possible that Rae Ann's parents do suspect the boyfriend killed her or was involved in her death in some capacity, but they lack the evidence to accuse him directly/publicly. I think we have to suspect the boyfriend because if she truly was murdered, nothing else really makes sense. It's almost absurd to think that some unknown third party was lurking in the shadows waiting to do harm to Rae Ann and decided to strike at this precise moment. I'll go so far as to say I think it's impossible. The only logical suspects then are the people who were known to be with Rae Ann in the moments before her death - the boyfriend. I'm sure the boyfriend and whomever else was present at the time were questioned thoroughly by the police and since her death was ultimately ruled a suicide, it's reasonable to assume that these folks were all cleared as suspects. That being said, the parents are back to square one in the sense that the burden is now on them to disprove the suicide ruling, hence the hiring of all these experts and the clinical direction the UM segment goes in, as well as the lack of a more direct accusation.

The second possibility is that the information provided by the boyfriend/witnesses so strongly supports the official ruling of suicide and UM glossed that over to make the story more mysterious. I would have to watch the segment again to be sure, but didn't other people hear Rae Ann's exclamation "what do I have to do to prove my love to you? Kill myself?" (paraphrase)? Who were these people? Suppose for the sake of argument that they were neighbors who really had no connection or relationship with Rae Ann or the boyfriend. If that is true, then they don't have much (or any) reason to lie about what they heard and their testimony regarding her actions/comments strongly point toward suicide. Even with the expert testimony, the story would come off weak, in my opinion. So UM mentions the testimony, but does so only in passing, and the witnesses aren't named nor do they appear on camera so the viewer can judge their credibility.

I think the key to figuring this out would be to find out who else heard Rae Ann make these comments and what their relationship (if any) was to her and the boyfriend. Without knowing more details, it's hard to say whether she was murdered and I'd just be guessing as to what really took place, but it's not even an educated guess.

The guy who posted last night claiming to be a cousin of Rae Ann's makes a case for my first argument. However, I now see that he has edited/deleted his posts, so I guess we're back to theories and assumptions.

1) To my mind, the only reason to suspect the boyfriend is if the shooting were an accident and not the suicide that it was ruled to be. If she were threatening suicide and he tried to take the gun away from her, then it could have been ruled an accident.But there's no proof that this was the case.

You really have to question Ms. Mossor's mental state at the time. Why would anybody continue to harass a boyfriend that no longer had any interest in her, especially at night and at his home?
It's clear that Ms. Mossor had severe mental and emotional issues, making the verdict of suicide seem an even more correct decision.

2) As much as I love to watch UM, it's clear that "inconvenient" facts were/are left out of episodes, where their presence would lessen the quality of the "mystery."

Maybe this was/is done to prevent lawsuits. Maybe this done for entertainment value. Maybe it's done for time constraints.
Not sure...but it makes some of the segments very confusing if you examine them closely.

I know that I don't have to believe you.
You come on a forum where people are expressing opinions claiming that you have FACTS, and then provide none of those "facts" when you are asked to.

Since you won't even provide proof that you are who you are claiming to be, then your postings are pretty useless, aren't they?

Aren't you being a little harsh? How exactly is he or she supposed to prove that? There have been others on here who have claimed to be relatives of victims profiled on UM. They are mostly treated with respect. We don't really have any way of knowing if they are telling the truth or not, but this person might really be a relative of hers and I think it'd be nice to show some sympathy.

That being said, I can't help but think that if her b/f were a drug dealer he'd have been suspected more than he was. But then again this whole business about her saying "What do I have to do to prove my love to you kill myself?" sounds a little to Days of Our Lives to me.

I believe there is just a lot more to this case than the broadcast said. But there is always something that has seemed rotten to me about it.

I think if the boyfriend were going to do this, he wouldn't do in the middle of the street where there are any number of potential witnesses. And if it was his gun, he wouldn't leave it lying around. It would seem that somebody would have looked out their window and seen someone fleeing the area, if it were a homicide.

Given her mental state at the time, I could see her doing something careless with the gun, thus causing it to go off.

JonnieP may or may not be Rae Ann's cousin. We get some nutters on here. They usually show up just to stir up trouble or get attention. But we are also visited by actual friends and family members of the victims. (And I think even a couple victims themselves have posted here.) After a few posts, you can usually tell if these people are who they claim to be.

If Rae Ann's parents recreation with the broom, regarding the length of the gun and the impossibility of Rae Ann being able to shoot herself with it is accurate, I tend to lean toward homicide.

One thing that really bugged me about this segment was the firearm expert. He was trying to prove that the gun could not have gone off accidently if she happened to drop it while it was pointed at her chest. His way of testing that was to hold the gun by the tip of the barrel and bang the butt of the shot gun on the floor over and over while the barrel pointed wildly around the room, including at his own head.

IMO, her parents performed a better and more sound investigation regarding the gun than the pro did.

Aren't you being a little harsh? How exactly is he or she supposed to prove that? There have been others on here who have claimed to be relatives of victims profiled on UM. They are mostly treated with respect. We don't really have any way of knowing if they are telling the truth or not, but this person might really be a relative of hers and I think it'd be nice to show some sympathy.

That being said, I can't help but think that if her b/f were a drug dealer he'd have been suspected more than he was. But then again this whole business about her saying "What do I have to do to prove my love to you kill myself?" sounds a little to Days of Our Lives to me.

I believe there is just a lot more to this case than the broadcast said. But there is always something that has seemed rotten to me about it.

The poster claimed to be a relative of the victim and then stated (as a fact) that her ex-boyfriend killed Ms. Mossor.
Not sure where you are from poster, but it's libel to accuse somebody in writing of a crime w/o having proof.
It would be slander if the same were stated out loud, again w/o proof.Since this person is freely throwing around accusations of felonies w/o any proof, then he/she should be willing to put their name behind a claim like that.

This forum can do a lot of good by keeping cold cases in the public eye and by providing a resource of potential information.Pretending to be someone that you are not and claiming that people have committed crimes (especially murder) w/o proof is the quickest way to dilute the integrity of the forum.

If that's not a concern, then my posting shouldn't bother the poster. Or anyone else.

One thing that really bugged me about this segment was the firearm expert. He was trying to prove that the gun could not have gone off accidently if she happened to drop it while it was pointed at her chest. His way of testing that was to hold the gun by the tip of the barrel and bang the butt of the shot gun on the floor over and over while the barrel pointed wildly around the room, including at his own head.

True. I would go as far as to say having the "expert" test it at all was completely worthless, because he can bang that gun around all he wants to, but it will never be in exactly the same position as it was when it was accidentally shot, if in fact it was an accident. Even if the gun won't accidentally go off 99.9% of the time, this may have been the .01% where it did go off accidentally.

True. I would go as far as to say having the "expert" test it at all was completely worthless, because he can bang that gun around all he wants to, but it will never be in exactly the same position as it was when it was accidentally shot, if in fact it was an accident. Even if the gun won't accidentally go off 99.9% of the time, this may have been the .01% where it did go off accidentally.

That's true. I cringed the first time I saw the segment, because there is always a very real--albeit perhaps very remote, depending on the firearm--possibility of a weapon discharging when a round is chambered and the butt is struck on the ground.

Not sure where you are from poster, but it's libel to accuse somebody in writing of a crime w/o having proof.

Incorrect. It's libel if it's proven to be libel.


By common law, the statement must be false; it must have caused harm to the individual, and the claim must've been based on an ill attempt at a reasonable amount of research. None of us know, for certain, if any of those things are true. It is the poster's opinion, and opinion is certainly widely protected under U.S. law--to include who one thinks is absolutely guilty of a crime or not. If it wasn't, don't you think this board would've been shut down years ago? :lol:

None of us are even aware of Mosser's boyfriend's actual name. I think that'd be a pretty important component of a libelous statement. :lol:

That's true. I cringed the first time I saw the segment, because there is always a very real--albeit perhaps very remote, depending on the firearm--possibility of a weapon discharging when a round is chambered and the butt is struck on the ground.



Incorrect. It's libel if it's proven to be libel.


By common law, the statement must be false; it must have caused harm to the individual, and the claim must've been based on an ill attempt at a reasonable amount of research. None of us know, for certain, if any of those things are true. It is the poster's opinion, and opinion is certainly widely protected under U.S. law--to include who one thinks is absolutely guilty of a crime or not. If it wasn't, don't you think this board would've been shut down years ago? :lol:

None of us are even aware of Mosser's boyfriend's actual name. I think that'd be a pretty important component of a libelous statement. :lol:

If I'm not mistaken the boyfriend's name was mentioned in the first few airings of the segment, but was removed from later airings. Even if his name wasn't mentioned, it wouldn't be very difficult for an enterprising person to locate his name w/ an Internet search. And nothing the poster stated was presented or qualified as being an "opinion. The poster came on here and stated as a "fact" that this was a murder and gave the identity of the person that committed it.

I'm aware of libel and slander laws. In the US, the are rarely enforced due to how often they conflict w/ the First Amendment and the need to prove there was "malice aforethought" when making the claim. However, presenting a statement as fact w/o providing any proof of that statement's validity is at the very least, lying.

I think that the anonymity of the Internet and these types of forums allows irresponsible people to make claims that would end them up in court in they said or made them in real life. That's part of the reason that Myspace's forums are so useless: you can go on there fabricate any story that you want w/ no type of evidence and it stays there forever.

I think if the boyfriend were going to do this, he wouldn't do in the middle of the street where there are any number of potential witnesses. And if it was his gun, he wouldn't leave it lying around. It would seem that somebody would have looked out their window and seen someone fleeing the area, if it were a homicide.
Given her mental state at the time, I could see her doing something careless with the gun, thus causing it to go off.

You are assuming that it was premeditated. I never really thought that.

My theory was more along the lines that perhaps they were having a fight, and somehow the shotgun became involved. Its entirely possible that Rae Ann could have picked it up in anger, either threatening to shoot him or herself, or the boyfriend could have even picked it up.

She may have went outside with the gun, he tried to get it away from her, they struggled, and boom it went off.

Of course something like that would have been considered nothing more than third degre Manslaughter, but that still carries prison time, hence the cover up by the boyfriend's family.

I can't imagine this was a premeditated murder, but I definitely believe someone else was there when this happened besides Rae Ann. I don't think it was suicide, and I don't think she shot herself accidentally. It still could have been an accident, but someone else was there.

You are assuming that it was premeditated. I never really thought that.

My theory was more along the lines that perhaps they were having a fight, and somehow the shotgun became involved. Its entirely possible that Rae Ann could have picked it up in anger, either threatening to shoot him or herself, or the boyfriend could have even picked it up.

She may have went outside with the gun, he tried to get it away from her, they struggled, and boom it went off.

Of course something like that would have been considered nothing more than third degre Manslaughter, but that still carries prison time, hence the cover up by the boyfriend's family.

I can't imagine this was a premeditated murder, but I definitely believe someone else was there when this happened besides Rae Ann. I don't think it was suicide, and I don't think she shot herself accidentally. It still could have been an accident, but someone else was there.

It could have gone down like that, but given the fact that she (Ms. Mossor) appears to have been harassing the ex-boyfriend (and may have even been stalking him) it's doubtful that criminal charges would have been filed against the ex-boyfriend. Especially if he had spoken w/ an attorney before he spoke to the police.

I think that the evidence points towards Ms. Mossor being primarily responsible for what occurred that night. Had she not gone over to her ex's house that night, none of this would have happened. Not trying to blame the "victim" but it's pretty clear that this all could have been avoided.

It could have gone down like that, but given the fact that she (Ms. Mossor) appears to have been harassing the ex-boyfriend (and may have even been stalking him) it's doubtful that criminal charges would have been filed against the ex-boyfriend. Especially if he had spoken w/ an attorney before he spoke to the police.

I think that the evidence points towards Ms. Mossor being primarily responsible for what occurred that night. Had she not gone over to her ex's house that night, none of this would have happened. Not trying to blame the "victim" but it's pretty clear that this all could have been avoided.

Has all this been confirmed? I always thought that they were still together when she went over there and had simply had a fight. I don't remember anything from the broadcast that there was proof of Rae Ann being a stalker, so how do we really know all this was true? It could very well have been just a cover up by the boyfriend's family to paint a picture of Rae Ann.

But that goes back to what I said, I think there is really to much about this whole thing the broadcast didn't tell us and that we don't know.

I mean, it could very well be true, but I just don't think we know enough to judge Rae Ann or say that the whole thing was her fault. There is just something fishy about the whole thing.

Has all this been confirmed? I always thought that they were still together when she went over there and had simply had a fight. I don't remember anything from the broadcast that there was proof of Rae Ann being a stalker, so how do we really know all this was true? It could very well have been just a cover up by the boyfriend's family to paint a picture of Rae Ann.

But that goes back to what I said, I think there is really to much about this whole thing the broadcast didn't tell us and that we don't know.

I mean, it could very well be true, but I just don't think we know enough to judge Rae Ann or say that the whole thing was her fault. There is just something fishy about the whole thing.

Just watched the segment on an unnamed web site.
The actor portraying her ex-boyfriend is shown telling a police officer that they had argued about him not seeing her anymore. Since the family doesn't address any aspect of why she was at her boyfriend's home at the time and nobody seems to dispute his statement, it would appear that her presence was unwelcome.

If your presence is unwelcome and yet you choose to go to a place, you are probably harassing the person or people at that place. Repeated unwanted visits would constitute stalking in most jurisdictions.

My thoughts have actually been to consider this to be more a suicide than an accident.
Why?
The boyfriend shot her, left the gun that he would have used to do it w/ on the trunk of his OWN car and then went back inside w/o calling an ambulance or even dragging her out of the street?
He had more than enough time to get rid of the murder weapon, straighten up the scene and then leave the area if he had committed the crime, which is what most criminals do.
Why didn't he?

Since the authorities aren't talking about the case and NO ONE is talking about Ms. Mossor's mental state, then suicide can't be ruled out. Frankly, I had forgotten how short the segment was and how little information that it imparts upon the viewer.

you would have to assume that as soon as the gun went off, people were looking out their windows to see what was going on. They would have seen someone fleeing the area I would imagine. If there was a murderer, he wouldn't have had time to wipe fingerprints off the gun.

I wonder if the gun was ever checked for fingerprints?

you would have to assume that as soon as the gun went off, people were looking out their windows to see what was going on. They would have seen someone fleeing the area I would imagine. If there was a murderer, he wouldn't have had time to wipe fingerprints off the gun.

I wonder if the gun was ever checked for fingerprints?

If it was the boyfriend's shotgun, his prints being on the gun would not be suspicous in itself.

According to their story, Rae Ann apparently ran out of the house after yelling the infamous "What do I have to do to prove my love to you kill myself?" And then later they heard the shot.

I see no way anyone lets her run out of the house with the shotgun without running out after her, if for no other reason because they would not want her to steal it. Unless of course it was in his car.

As to your point about people going to their windows after hearing a shot, you'd be amazed how lacksadaisical people can be about going and investigating something suspicous, remember Crystal Spencer's neighbors? I'm sure someone might have looked out, but if it was the boyfriend, this took place in front of his house, all he had to do was run back inside, he had time to do that.

I think it's very possible that someone was trying to dissarm her and the gun accidentally went off. Maybe this person grabbed Rae Ann's gun from her, and she tried prying it back with her left hand which resulted in a jerking of the gun, causing whoever was holding it to go off accidentally. If it was the boyfriend who accidentally killed her, he could have easily slipped back inside his house considering it was a few feet away from his car.

And if this were a suicide, wouldn't the recoil from a shotgun of that size have knocked the gun off of the trunk or at least moved it somewhat?

Just watched this segment.

I really have no idea why so many people here believe it was a suicide. Not only was it proven to be impossible for a women of her size to fire a shotgun onto her own chest, but THREE different experts came to the same conclusion, including the state medical examiner. This is just a classic case of the police being lazy and calling random unexplained deaths "suicides" so they can work less. I also thought it was fishy as hell how they didn't perform an autopsy until 6 months after she died and after her mom requested one.

Anyone who's fired a shot gun before would know how badly those things recoil. There could have been no way in hell that that shotgun was lying neatly on the car trunk after it was fired. No damn way.

And what was up with that whole "I am in receipt of your letter" reply. I don't know why the mods told Raeann Mossor's cousin to delete all his posts too. I assume that's what happened.

Just watched this segment.

I really have no idea why so many people here believe it was a suicide. Not only was it proven to be impossible for a women of her size to fire a shotgun onto her own chest, but THREE different experts came to the same conclusion, including the state medical examiner. This is just a classic case of the police being lazy and calling random unexplained deaths "suicides" so they can work less. I also thought it was fishy as hell how they didn't perform an autopsy until 6 months after she died and after her mom requested one.

Anyone who's fired a shot gun before would know how badly those things recoil. There could have been no way in hell that that shotgun was lying neatly on the car trunk after it was fired. No damn way.

And what was up with that whole "I am in receipt of your letter" reply. I don't know why the mods told Raeann Mossor's cousin to delete all his posts too. I assume that's what happened.

Kyte, you and I always seem to have the same opinion, or at least very similar. :) I absolutely agree. And the whole talk about the mom's comment of the temper making suicide unlikely isn't weird to me. If you have a temper, chances are you don't want to be upstaged or defeated by others. Suicide is giving up, in my view. So I didn't find that remark to be weird at all; chances are, she thought her daughter was the type that hated to be put down and would bite back, if you know what I mean. Very troubling case.

I remember reading and posting on this thread around the time the alleged "cousin" was posting on here, and I believe he edited the posts himself. The posts also indicate he edited them as opposed to a mod - TJ or crystaldawn. Of course, the possibility exists that a moderator asked him to do this, but I don't see why. Personally, I think the guy got upset that people were questioning if he was who he claimed, and accusing him of libel, so he may have deleted his posts for that reason. Just a guess.

In any event, I think I have changed my thinking on this one a little. I used to adamantly say suicide, and while I feel that it probably was a suicide, there is enough evidence to suggest otherwise.

The problem is the vagueness of the segment itself. There are no theories proposed as to who might have killed Rae Ann. I see two possibilities then:

- the parents suspect the boyfriend had a hand in Rae Ann's death but they lack the evidence to accuse him.

- the boyfriend was ruled out as a suspect by all parties, and the undisputed circumstantial evidence/eyewitness testimony so strongly points toward suicide but UM ignored/clouded that fact to tell a good story.

Without knowing more information, it is impossible to make a judgment.

"the boyfriend was ruled out as a suspect by all parties, and the undisputed circumstantial evidence/eyewitness testimony so strongly points toward suicide"

Actually, the boyfriend was never ruled out as a suspect. The DA just didn't have enough evidence to convict him on anything. Plus, I don't know which segment you were watching, because clearly, the evidence pointed towards murder.

I'm reading through the other threads on this case and I really can't believe that the consensus is suicide. Its unbelievable to me how anyone could think this was suicide. I mean, come on. Everyone but the local PD said that it was physically impossible for her to have shot herself or for the gun to have gone off accidentily, and you really think that a shotgun could be lying so parallel to the trunk like that after it gone off? It was obvious that whoever shot her got nervous and planted it there.

And justins, crystaldawn or TJ made him edit his posts, presumably because none of his words could be verified.

Actually, the boyfriend was never ruled out as a suspect. The DA just didn't have enough evidence to convict him on anything.

Where is this stated in the segment?


Plus, I don't know which segment you were watching, because clearly, the evidence pointed towards murder.

I don't disagree.

As I said in my earlier post, there isn't enough information to come to a conclusion either way.

The medical and ballistics evidence, as uncovered by the family, suggest murder.

The circumstances suggest suicide since she threatened the act - "what do I have to do to prove my love to you, kill myself?" Then she ended up dead.

The segment doesn't propose any theories as to who might have killed her.

Why?

I only see two possibilities...

Either the boyfriend is the suspect, and there is no evidence to make an accusation.

Or, the boyfriend was ruled out as a suspect, and UM chose not to present that angle because the segment would come off weak. Afterall, who else would have killed her?

Stack mentions that eye witnesses heard Rae Ann make the infamous "kill myself" comment.

Who were these witnesses?

If they were unrelated to Rae Ann and the boyfriend, then the murder theory looks extremely weak. What reason would they have to lie?

On the other hand, they could be friends of the boyfriend and covering him.

The bottom line is, we just don't know. Hence, there isn't enough information to reach a sound conclusion.

And justins, crystaldawn or TJ made him edit his posts, presumably because none of his words could be verified.

Are you just presuming that is what happened or do you have proof?

Plus, I don't know which segment you were watching, because clearly, the evidence pointed towards murder.

That is not true. It could have just as easily been an accidental death as it could have been a murder. Rae Ann may have been hysterical outside with the shotgun, and her boyfriend (or anyone else for that matter) may have came out to attempt to disarm her and the gun went off killing her.

That is not true. It could have just as easily been an accidental death as it could have been a murder. Rae Ann may have been hysterical outside with the shotgun, and her boyfriend (or anyone else for that matter) may have came out to attempt to disarm her and the gun went off killing her.

How can a shotgun go off at someone's chest in the process of a disarming, and at the person who was originally had the shotgun? That makes absolutely no sense. I'm trying to imagine the scenario in my head, but it just seems like an impossibility. The shotgun in the case was well over 3 feet long, and its hard to think of any scenario where a guy could successfully disarm a person with a shotgun that long and not be shot first.

If they're grabbing it and playing tug of war what would probably happen is 1) the gun goes off in the direction of the person trying to disarm her or 2) the gun goes off in the direction of the person trying to disarm her dictated with his/her hand(s). I question if she ever even held the gun in the first place, as evidence shows that she was actually the person trying to disarm whoever was pointing the gun at her due to the powder burns on her left wrist and the fact that her left hand was adjacent to the muzzle, indicating that she was was attempting to push the gun away at the time it was fired.

Plus, the Chief Medical Examiner of NC ruled that the muzzle was at least a SEVERAL FEET away from her body at the time of discharge. If there really was a struggle, wouldn't you think the muzzle would be against her body or several inches away and not feet?

In the segment, R.J. Breglio, a ballistics investigator, said he tried a thousand times to replicate a scenario of an accidental discharge by dropping the shotgun. He couldn't do it.

A ballistics expert, the chief medical examiner of the state, and Vincent DiMaio, one of the country's leading forensic scientists, all think its murder. Frankly, I don't even have to watch the segment or investigate this case like I did to know that it was murder--I could easily have come to this conclusion just from the opinions of those three.

Also, I think its quite telling how that PD never went investigate the relationships of those 3 witnesses to the boyfriend. They're just about as lazy as the PD that "investigated" the Keith Warren case. Chances are they were 3 buddies that were over at his house and willing to tell a little fib for their bro to save his ass. After all, you can't snitch on a friend right?

How can a shotgun go off at someone's chest in the process of a disarming, and at the person who was originally had the shotgun?

Easy. If Rae Ann is out there threatening to kill herself (with the muzzle pointed towards her), whoever attempted to disarm her would have had the trigger towards them. Remember Rae Ann was allegedly in a state of hysteria since she and her boyfriend had just broken up. Why do you continue to blame the police departments in just about every case? You don't think they've exhausted every single lead in this case, had forensic experts out on the scene (who supported the suicide theory), also investigated the boyfriend and the witnesses, yet all of this was "lazy"? Why have there been no leads in the case since then? Maybe because it was solved correctly back when it was originally investigated.

Also, I think its quite telling how that PD never went investigate the relationships of those 3 witnesses to the boyfriend. They're just about as lazy as the PD that "investigated" the Keith Warren case. Chances are they were 3 buddies that were over at his house and willing to tell a little fib for their bro to save his ass. After all, you can't snitch on a friend right?

or, the PD did investigate these witnesses and found they had no relationship with the boyfriend or Rae Ann. Doesn't really say anywhere in the segment, does it?

Easy. If Rae Ann is out there threatening to kill herself (with the muzzle pointed towards her), whoever attempted to disarm her would have had the trigger towards them. Remember Rae Ann was allegedly in a state of hysteria since she and her boyfriend had just broken up. Why do you continue to blame the police departments in just about every case? You don't think they've exhausted every single lead in this case, had forensic experts out on the scene (who supported the suicide theory), also investigated the boyfriend and the witnesses, yet all of this was "lazy"? Why have there been no leads in the case since then? Maybe because it was solved correctly back when it was originally investigated.

Why are you saying "maybe because it was solved correctly back when it was originally investigated" when the case wasn't even investigated? In the police's eyes, it was a suicide through and through and they closed the case right then and there. At least they could have had the decency to tell Rae Ann's mother that they weren't going to do an autopsy instead of putting it off for half a year after she died and finally doing one only at the insistence of her mother.

And the only forensic person that supported the suicide theory was the pathologist that refused to do an initial autopsy and basically told Rae Ann's mother to **** off each and every time she told him to properly do his job. He also refused to be interviewed by UM.

I knew Rae Ann personally. I went to HS with her and we were good friends through HS and for a while afterwards. I lost touch with her after I was married.

I can say with 99% certainty that Rae Ann did not kill herself! Knowing her like I did, she would have killed him before she killed herself. She was one tough cookie and didn't take crap off anyone.

And yes, RPD was incompetent and still are incompetent now. I know from several personal experiences. I read a lot of the sleuthing websites and I can tell you from the cases I've read and this case (and of my own experiences), I can tell you LE does not do as thorough an investigation unless the person is prominent and/or has money, or unless the case is so bizarre/intriguing that it makes national news.

I knew Rae Ann personally. I went to HS with her and we were good friends through HS and for a while afterwards. I lost touch with her after I was married.

I can say with 99% certainty that Rae Ann did not kill herself! Knowing her like I did, she would have killed him before she killed herself. She was one tough cookie and didn't take crap off anyone.

And yes, RPD was incompetent and still are incompetent now. I know from several personal experiences. I read a lot of the sleuthing websites and I can tell you from the cases I've read and this case (and of my own experiences), I can tell you LE does not do as thorough an investigation unless the person is prominent and/or has money, or unless the case is so bizarre/intriguing that it makes national news.

thanks for posting! I live only an hour or two from Roanoke myself, although I am not familiar with the authorities there and din't want to point individual fingers. But I do agree with you that people need to wake up to the reality that law enforcement in this country can be very lazy and corrupt.

I don't suppose you happened to know Rae Ann's b/f as well did you? And if so would you have thought he'd be involved?

My gut feeling always was that this was a suicide. I feel this way because we have witness testimony that she apparently threatened the act, and then did it with a gun that very likely belonged to her - UM didn't specify where the gun came from but I assume that if it's owner couldn't be identified with certainty, that would be yet another nail in the coffin for the murder theory and it would have been raised on the segment; not unlike Tony Lombardi and why I feel it's safe to assume that the gun belonged to him - or at least belonged in the house.

Also, like Dante said, if we accept the witness testimony at face value, then there basically had to be an unknown party lurking around out there, with no known motive, who just happened to strike in close proximity to witnesses, at a time she was already threatening suicide, and somehow remain undetected. Seems pretty far-fetched.

HOWEVER, there was another thread on this case some time ago and Todd Mueller(?) posted on it and made a good point - we have three experts hired by the family who said she couldn't have pulled the trigger herself. If it's physically impossible for her to hold the gun in such a manner as to inflict the wounds that she had, it has to be a murder, or at least "undetermined" until proven otherwise.

As others have raised, I wonder just how credible the boyfriend and the other witnesses were who allegedly heard her make these statements really were. UM didn't touch on it in any depth. If these people were close to her at the time she allegedly shot herself, they would be key to determining what actually happened.

I wonder if the parents suspect the boyfriend or witnesses but just don't have the evidence to say so and that's why this was seemingly avoided like the plague on the UM segment.

I find this segment frustrating, as it's focused entirely on the mechanics of the shooting and not the full crime. The parents' have presented sufficient information, in my mind, to question the ruling of suicide. There are several questions left unanswered that are, in my mind, critical to the case:

1. Whose gun was it?
2. Who were the witnesses?

If it's not suicide, then the only witnesses must, by rights, be the only suspects, which renders their testimony questionable, at the least.

However, whether or not Rae Ann's death was deliberate or accidental is wholly unknown given the non-existence of any information presented. If the gun was Rae Ann's, I could believe she had a breakdown, was waiving the gun around, and it was discharged in a struggle; if not, that's still possible, of course, but less likely, since it means someone else was brandishing a weapon at Rae Ann.

thanks for posting! I live only an hour or two from Roanoke myself, although I am not familiar with the authorities there and din't want to point individual fingers. But I do agree with you that people need to wake up to the reality that law enforcement in this country can be very lazy and corrupt.

I don't suppose you happened to know Rae Ann's b/f as well did you? And if so would you have thought he'd be involved?

XCalibur - I didn't know her boyfriend. I had not met him, but heard that she had a man in her life.

It's hard for me to come right out and say he did it, because I wasn't there and didn't witness what happened. All I know is that knowing her like I did, I truly believe she would have done him in instead of suicide. Rae Ann was a very strong and determined person. She didn't take crapola off of anyone, and I guess some could say they were probably scared of her.

There was a person who did me wrong in high school - broke into my locker and stole a bunch of personal notes. Why this person did that, I will never know. I didn't know this person and we weren't friends. This person was a couple years younger than I was. Anyway, Rae Ann found out who did it...retreived the notes...and then proceeded to beat the snot out of this person. Rae Ann had no stake in those notes - but I did.

She was a tough cookie and not one to let someone run her over or to let emotions get to her. She would have beat him...broken his things...wrecked his car...shot him...but I seriously doubt she would have killed herself over him.

XCalibur - I didn't know her boyfriend. I had not met him, but heard that she had a man in her life.

It's hard for me to come right out and say he did it, because I wasn't there and didn't witness what happened. All I know is that knowing her like I did, I truly believe she would have done him in instead of suicide. Rae Ann was a very strong and determined person. She didn't take crapola off of anyone, and I guess some could say they were probably scared of her.

There was a person who did me wrong in high school - broke into my locker and stole a bunch of personal notes. Why this person did that, I will never know. I didn't know this person and we weren't friends. This person was a couple years younger than I was. Anyway, Rae Ann found out who did it...retreived the notes...and then proceeded to beat the snot out of this person. Rae Ann had no stake in those notes - but I did.

She was a tough cookie and not one to let someone run her over or to let emotions get to her. She would have beat him...broken his things...wrecked his car...shot him...but I seriously doubt she would have killed herself over him.


Thanks for the post MBL. This is exactly what I have been thinking all along.


But seriously though. How many people have actually committed suicide over their boyfriends? The fact that so many people here think Rae Ann killed herself just pisses me off.

Thanks for the post MBL. This is exactly what I have been thinking all along.


But seriously though. How many people have actually committed suicide over their boyfriends? The fact that so many people here think Rae Ann killed herself just pisses me off.

I am inclined to agree. As I've said, the whole business with her saying "What do I have to to prove I love you kill myself", sounds way to Days of Our Lives to me. Sounds far more like something an arrogant punk would make up to make himself look like God's gift to women and to get out of prison time to boot.

I'm not saying its impossible, I know all to well the loss of a companion can be extremely difficult and make you say crazy things. But actually goin through with it is more rare.

I don't think this was a premeditated murder, or if it was it was the dumbest one ever. But suicide doesn't make sense either.

In my opinion, the only thing that makes sense in this case is a struggle over the shotgun between two people and an accidental discharge. I see no way Rae Ann did it by herself either accidentally or on purpose, the tests on the shotgun did a pretty good job of proving that.

Such a thing could carry three to five years in prison for manslaughter, easily enough hard time for someone to want to avoid and cover something up and stage a hasty suicide scene.

Anyone who thinks there is not a LOT of law enforcement in this country that is lazy and corrupt is burying their head in the sand.

Did they ever say what caliber of shotgun it was? Also, did they say (based on the powder burns) if the gun was touching her chest or slightly away from it?

How can a shotgun go off at someone's chest in the process of a disarming, and at the person who was originally had the shotgun?

What if she was holding it sideways? Like she had her right hand on the stock, and left hand holding the barrel? Boyfriend jerks on the gun, trying to take it from her. The stock comes out of her right hand, but she still has a hold of the barrel. Boyfriend jerks again, maybe accidentally hitting the trigger, and the gun goes off, pointed towards Rae Ann. It would explain the powder burns on her left hand.

I believe they said the tests show the gun was pressed into her chest

I just listened to this story in my car today (yes I drive to audio recordings of UM...) and did I miss something? Was the boyfriend tested for gun powder residue?

Still confused about whose gun it was.

I have doubts about the suicide due to the bullet trajectory but there isn't enough evidence to charge anyone or rule it a homicide...so I agree with Kadrmas, the only thing that makes sense is undetermined.

Lol are u serious about listening to audio recordings? Cause I listen to them at work! :happyface

Lol are u serious about listening to audio recordings? Cause I listen to them at work! :happyface

I'm listening to Katelynn Arquette's story on my MP3 player at work as we speak (slow night). :)

She was supposedly killed while sitting on the edge of a car, correct?
What if she leaned the rifle against the side of the car and positioned her chest over the muzzle and pulled the trigger with her toe?

It would explain the powder burns on her hand because she was holding the barrel/muzzle at her chest so she could shoot herself in the heart. Also, I read long ago that young women tend to commit suicide by firearm by shooting themselves in the CHEST, not the HEAD. This would be consistent with that common belief. They do this out of vanity.

Just a thought.

I'm sorry, but that just reminds me of the Dirshell (spelling?) case where they said that he pulled the trigger with his toe; I personally think pulling the trigger with your toe sounds silly and also extremely difficult to do with shoes on.

I think your vanity theory is a possibility though, but at the same time, if the pain of a shot gun would be horrendous and it might not kill your right away. I would think one would try to aim at an immediately fatal position to avoid any pain, even with vanity desires.

I still think this was not a suicide.

She was supposedly killed while sitting on the edge of a car, correct?
What if she leaned the rifle against the side of the car and positioned her chest over the muzzle and pulled the trigger with her toe?

For this to have happened, someone would have had to have moved the shotgun because it was found on the hood of the car.

Has anyone ever seen the Forensic Files episodes about the murder of Martin Dillon, or the episode about the AZ police officer whose wife committed suicide by shooting herself with a shotgun (even though he was tried and convicted for murder, only for that ruling to be reversed)?

I'll briefly describe the two. Martin Dillon was found dead from a shotgun blast to his chest while shooting clays with a friend. The friend claimed he had seen an animal and ran after it to shoot it, and had tripped, fallen, and somehow discharged the weapon. Long story short was that Dillon's friend had killed him with the weapon. Post-exhumation autopsies revealed "scalloping" around the edge of Dillon's chest wound, which would only happen if Dillon were some three feet or more away from the end of the barrel, as the pellets would have spread and caused that pattern.

The second episode had this police officer's wife sitting on a bed with a shotgun to her midsection, the sitting upside down with the trigger well towards the ceiling. Her wound did NOT show evidence of scalloping (as the pellets did not have time to disperse), and large amounts of shot buffer on her clothing and body, which indicated that the barrel had been against her body when it was fired. There was also a demonstration that it was entirely possible to discharge the weapon in this position, utilizing a woman who was about the same size as the decedent (curiously, I distinctly remember this woman's arm also being about 29 inches, and that's what made me think of the Rae Ann Mossor segment).

So I wonder: what were the characteristics of Rae Ann's wound? No one really describes it in the segment, except that the consulted Chief Medical Examiner for North Carolina says that it wasn't consistent with the end of the barrel being against her chest. Vincent Di Maio claims the weapon was some distance away from her body, but never really gives us the "why" for that conclusion. I think knowing that would be especially telling.

Also--in the segment, the length from the end of the barrel to the trigger well is given as 36 inches. That must have been a pretty long shotgun--I always thought that seemed kind of odd. I tend to think someone was mistaken in that regard. Even the lengthier ones like you'd use to hunt ducks or other birds with aren't typically that long.

I'm not a forensics expert, but I do know that a shotgun blast at that close a range would have done extensive damage, she must have had a hole through her you could almost throw a bowling ball through. I apologize if that was to graphic.

But the point is, with that extensive a damage I would think it would have been difficult to say for certain whether or not the shotgun was pressed against her or a few inches away, but that few inches would tell a lot. Even with the gun pressed against her it would have been hard for her to pull the trigger.

I've said it before, I can't envision how someone else wasn't there when the gun went off.

Watched this segment again recently. I have made up my mind about it: she probably didn't commit suicide. Someone else discharged the weapon into her.

Dr. Vincent Di Maio, the pathologist in the segment that demonstrated that Rae Ann would've had to rotate around the firearm to pull the trigger, actually authored an entire text about gunshot wounds. Someone has put the entire thing in pdf online (please use discretion if you need to--there are photographs and some are of very severe wounds):

http://www.e-reading-lib.org/bookreader.php/135302/Gunshot_wounds._Practical_aspects_of_firearms,_ballistics,_and_forensic_techniques.pdf

The shotgun fired at Rae Ann measured 36 inches, the longest it gets. It's already known that it would have been impossible for her to have reached the trigger without rotating around the barrel or employing some other kind of mechanism (which doesn't seem very likely) since her arm was 29 inches long.

Chapter 8 of Dr. Di Maio's text covers shotguns and the wounds they produce. Something very specific caught my attention, and that's what happens when shot penetrates someone at an angle. It makes a distinct wound with a rectangular shape. Even if Rae Ann were somehow able to get the barrel of the shotgun as close to the center of her chest as possible, that wound would've had that distinct pattern. Because both Drs. Di Maio and Butts were so certain that it wasn't a contact wound (this is explained very well in the book as well), and because they did not identify this wound as one matching the above description, I can only surmise that both doctors had strong reason to believe Rae Ann's death wasn't a suicide.

This is a bit graphic, but in contact wounds to the thorax, the abdominothoracic cavity will forcefully and abruptly inflate due to the force of the trajectory and muzzle gases. Often, this will leave imprints of the muzzle and shotcup (in the case of a shotgun)--sometimes the force is so great an imprint of the hand supporting the barrel will be left behind on the thorax. One would think Rae Ann's wound would show this kind of evidence if she committed suicide. Nothing like this was mentioned (then again, plenty of things weren't).

I realize we don't know a whole lot about this case at all as information outside UM on it seems to be very scarce, but at the risk of appearing as though I trust physicians implicitly, I do think it's prudent in this case to defer to the education and expertise of those who have a whole hell of lot more of it than I do.

Here's an archive article I found as well, although there's pretty much nothing in it at all that wasn't mentioned in the segment:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1298&dat=19870820&id=nftNAAAAIBAJ&sjid=j4sDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6936,3524117

Thanks for the link to the newspaper article. I wonder if it's even possible for a shotgun to discharge accidentally if the stock was banged on the trunk of her car. I still think her death was most likely an accidental homicide, with the boyfriend being the most likely person who pulled the trigger. I don't think he intentionally murdered her, however. She was the one who was in hysterics (according to witnesses) and she was the one who drove over to the boyfriends house with her shotgun.

Thanks for the link to the newspaper article. I wonder if it's even possible for a shotgun to discharge accidentally if the stock was banged on the trunk of her car.

Yes, a firearm without a drop safety (most handguns have them, but many long guns do not, especially not older models) and/or with a faulty firing pin can discharge from being "banged", but most of the time that happens when the weapon has been dropped on the ground. I don't at all see why it couldn't happen by being banged on the trunk, although I would think that shotgun would've ended up somewhere else other than the top of the trunk. I also read in the book that a number of pump action shotgun accidents occur when engaging the trigger while loading the chamber, but this seems unlikely in this case. Kind of seemed like a "duh" thing to me, but I had never considered that before.

I still think her death was most likely an accidental homicide, with the boyfriend being the most likely person who pulled the trigger. I don't think he intentionally murdered her, however. She was the one who was in hysterics (according to witnesses) and she was the one who drove over to the boyfriends house with her shotgun.

At the risk of making what could seem like a sexist argument--and this is anecdotal--I've personally never known very many sportswomen that own 12-gauge shotguns. Most have 16- to 20-gauges guns. I shoot trap non-competitively, and I honestly cannot hit well with anything over a 16 because I don't control the recoil of a larger weapon well. This is the case for most women (and many men actually won't use large gauge shotguns for trap, skeet, or clays for the same reason--there's far more control with less recoil). In any event, it's hard for me to imagine that weapon belonging to Rae Ann. I can, however, see it belonging to her father. I would LOVE to know exactly where it came from.

I think it's interesting the shotgun was found on top of the trunk of the boyfriend's car, not Rae Ann's. I think it may be possible that if Rae Ann arrived at and then approached her boyfriend's home in absolute hysterics, he may have grabbed his own weapon for protection. If at least three different people overheard that "kill myself" comment, it seems more likely it was said outside and heard from indoors, as it was nearly 8 PM on an early February night in southern VA and likely quite cold (this also means there were probably no eyewitnesses to what transpired among any of those people). I also think BOTH Rae Ann and her boyfriend could have been outside, maybe even arguing beside the boyfriend's car (which could have been parked just outside his house). I can imagine he becomes frightened, points the weapon at her in response, and negligently discharges the weapon, killing her. He leaves the weapon on top of his car. (I can also imagine him deliberately firing the shotgun, although this seems less likely to me.)

At the end of the day, the Mossors and Drs. Di Maio and Butts made an extremely strong case. Rae Ann's case should have been reopened, and I don't at all understand why it wasn't. It's ridiculous to have a procedure in place about "having a clear suspect" before a death can be reclassified as homicide, and I hope the city of Roanoke or its county has changed that since.

I noticed in the Di Maio demonstration with the assistant, the muzzle of the weapon is about two-and-a-half to three feet away or so, "at the closest it could have been" in Rae Ann's shooting. A wound inflicted from that distance is totally distinct from both a hard- and soft-contact wound. Scalloping is evident, as the shotcup has opened and is beginning to disperse. The edges of the wound aren't seared as in a contact wound. There's a good drawing on page 254 of the book showing the differences.

(I'm a BSN student, and I am interested in emergency and trauma work/certification after I pass the NCLEX and earn my license, which is actually initially what drew me to the book. That's what got me thinking of Rae Ann Mossor, and now I'm all kinds of distracted from my study. :lol: )

Also, I seem to have two different versions of this segment. I have some of my DVDs packed away, and some are immediately available to me. The version I have here seems cut. I clearly remember on my other DVD Ron Mossor making a comment about the original ME not "getting off his buns" or something to that effect, and it's not on this one. This WAS a segment that made it to Lifetime, right?

I wasn't saying that it was Rae Ann's personal gun, just that she was the one who brought it with her to her boyfriends house. Yes, I do remember seeing the segment on Lifetime when Stack was still alive.

Wait, didn't the grand jury or whatever vote unanimously not to change the cause of death from suicide? I think that probably says something right there. Truth be told, believing that LE bungled the case isn't the most implausible thing ever given some of the stuff that has went down on UM, but in order to believe the Mossors were getting screwed involves believing that they were getting screwed by LE and the grand jury and everyone is a much bigger stretch. I do agree that there's probably some things we don't know about this case. But in order to believe the Mossor's claims, you'd pretty much have to believe that various people and various groups of people were conspiring and colluding together. Possible, but how likely?

Interestingly, Rae Ann's parents wanted the matter of death changed to homicide. That means they ruled out in their minds the possibility of accidental, which I'm not sure how they came to that conclusion. I still think it's very possible the death was accidental and I don't think it can be conclusively ruled out.

With no obvious suspect or motive, it's up to the parents and the people they contact to make the case for homicide. And when that consists largely of the so-called expert banging the gun on the ground, the mom's "stubborn" comment and the dad saying "it's a homicide, I don't care what anyone thinks" did absolutely nothing to sway me from where I stand on this one.

I can maybe go accidental. But I'm just not seeing homicide here.

Owing to the extremely one-sided nature of the presentation, it is hard to know what you should believe, but I always thought this was probably a suicide. What was she doing driving around with a shotgun anyway? And someone just happened to shoot her with it for no apparent reason? I guess that is possible, but not probable.

Yeah.

The segment really doesn't come right out and say it, but I always got the impression that Rae Ann was hysterical when she went over and probably not in a rational state of mind. It's purely speculative, but I just rewatched the segment and the boyfriend stated that "she wanted to know why I hadn't been seeing her." which leads me to believe she went over to confront him. That's why I tend to believe that she really did make the statement of "what do I have to do to prove my love for you, kill myself?" I just don't think she was thinking clearly at that time.

While I don't agree with the initial failure to perform an autopsy (I think one should always be done if there's even the slightest chance of it being something other than suicide), the person performing it also came to the conclusion of suicide. When you couple that with LE and the grand jury coming to the same conclusion, that leaves the Mossor's and the people they personally contacted as the only ones believing homicide.

Which leads me to this, and again this is purely speculation, but I have to wonder if the Mossor's contacted a lot of doctors, ballistic experts, etc and got varying opinions and cherry picked the ones that backed up their beliefs. I would have liked to see what an expert who *wasn't* contacted directly by the Mossor's (who have a set opinion in this case) had to say about it.

And I really wasn't impressed with the testimony of Dr. John Butts. His contribution was to say that Rae Ann's body was several feet away from the gun at the time of the discharge and in the very next breath, he says her hand was at or very near the gun at the time of discharge. So which is it? I'm confused. And then he issues this semi-smile, and that's the end of his part of the segment.

Initially, I thought that the Rae Anne's parents suspected the boyfriend but didn't come right out and say it in the segment (or perhaps it didn't make it on to the segment), but the grand jury had dismissed the case because there were no suspects, which leads me to believe that are no solid suspects in this case.

Also something else that never really added up to me. Now it is easy to second guess after the fact and play Monday morning quarterback, however, the boyfriend's story about 'what do I have to do to prove my love to you, kill myself?' I don't know, that just does not fly to me. I mean I get people do irrational, stupid stuff, but okay, let's just say for the sake of argument that she really did say that and that these three witnesses who allegedly overheard this, lets say all of them are telling the truth, even so, it seems mighty interesting how someone that was allegedly so hell bent on offing herself, I mean, why did no one try to stop her from doing this? I also find it strange that while all these people allegedly overheard this, none of them saw her shoot herself.

It's called emotional blackmail. Do you know how many times my ex threatened to do exactly that? You stop taking it seriously after the 5th time.

I tend to look at all the suicide stories with suspicion. I want to see the proof that a suicide took place. Not just, there was a gun by the body so it's a suicide. Maybe I watch too much Snapped ;)

Is it true that suicides are entirely investigated, autopsies and all these days? Feel like I read that.

Anyway, I think there are compelling arguments for each side. Undetermined is probably the most reasonable conclusion since an investigation never occurred. Along with the evidence presented in the segment, I'd like to see investigators show how the suicide could have been committed.

Don't think they'll ever get closure and I completely understand their push for more investigation. Also, females rarely commit suicide with a gun. Just another thought to the involvement of others.

I'd go for an attempt to disarm her.

Ummm...do you have any actual sources for the above information?
Anybody can come online and claim to be anyone they want to.

Here are a few more things:

1) If she was "trying to leave him" why was she at his house at night?
2) If it was his gun, why did he leave it at the crime scene?
3) Why didn't the program mention that it was his gun?
4) If she was using drugs as you have stated, how could her mental state be "fine" as you have claimed?
5) Were you an actual witness to any of these events (if you are who you claim to be) or are you repeating things that another person (or other people) have told you?

Again, if you are who claim that you are, then you shouldn't mind providing sources and proof of your "facts."

Your posts throughout this entire thread have been ridiculous, along with your libel/slander game.

Point 1 isn't mutually exclusive. Common sense dictates that.
Point 2, so he could call it a "suicide." I don't know?
Point 4, this one shouldn't be addressed to anyone with the reasoning capacity of a 5th grader. There are plenty of people who do drugs and have a sound mental state, just as there are plenty who have a sound mental state and do drugs. Human variation dictates that. Just because you smoke pot or blow some coke doesn't mean their reasoning or judgment are diminished when not high.
Point 5, witness or not is irrelevant to this thread. People say things. Some are trolls, and some are credible. It doesn't hurt to get extra info. You're not an investigator, no matter what you'd like to think.

The poster claimed to be a relative of the victim and then stated (as a fact) that her ex-boyfriend killed Ms. Mossor.
Not sure where you are from poster, but it's libel to accuse somebody in writing of a crime w/o having proof.
It would be slander if the same were stated out loud, again w/o proof.Since this person is freely throwing around accusations of felonies w/o any proof, then he/she should be willing to put their name behind a claim like that.

This forum can do a lot of good by keeping cold cases in the public eye and by providing a resource of potential information.Pretending to be someone that you are not and claiming that people have committed crimes (especially murder) w/o proof is the quickest way to dilute the integrity of the forum.

If that's not a concern, then my posting shouldn't bother the poster. Or anyone else.

People say all sorts of things. Who cares? Most people from UM aren't part of some bourgeoisie circle and thus talk like plebs. Most family members or friends of victims don't type in the most readable way possible. A lot of these people come from hick towns with little schooling and who don't have expectations to speak formally with others. This is natural.

_____________________________________

On the segment:

This is a confusing case. We have a victim who by all accounts except for those who knew her who has been said to have exhibited all necessary and sufficient conditions to commit suicide. RPD had the intuitive judgment that it was a suicide. Pathologists took a long time to examine her body. My feeling, far from being conspiratorial, is that coroners are simply overwhelmed with a number of homicides already and that reinvestigating a possible homicide simply wasn't within what the government could funnel. On top of not having a viable suspect, it only served to hamper the problem.

My instinct, because it's so obvious, is that her boyfriend was clear of any wrongdoing. No boyfriend? No other suspects? Look back at her mental state by other sources, and we have a suicide.

The question is How? The state never explained how it could have been done, and a number of experts dissented.

We have two issues here. The average and the existential...

If pathologists who support "not suicide" are saying it would have been overwhelmingly difficult to do and that the average person of her physical traits could not have committed suicide, then we have a problem.

Existential simply means it could have happened with sufficient will - a will her family denies.

Basically, the family needs to show that the boyfriend should be a suspect or he was exonerated completely. If exonerated, suicide seems to be the most likely outcome.

And of the possibility that there could have been a struggle for the gun and that the gun accidentally went off? Unlikely. Unless you personally know the person (and even that's a big if), people don't fight with strangers over guns for fear of being shot fatally themselves. This is obvious.

I think she committed suicide but that the pathology (which is a lot of guesswork and averages) were such that the wounds of the victim were atypical, or an outlier, and thus the confusion.

In stats, outliers are accepted as normal. You just exclude outliers to not mess with the average distribution. I wonder if pathologists are confusing two seemingly related but distinct issues in the average and the existential.

[QUOTE=Apostapler]I just listened to this story in my car today (yes I drive to audio recordings of UM...) QUOTE]

OMG! I do that too haha I thought I was the only one :lol: :)

XCalibur - I didn't know her boyfriend. I had not met him, but heard that she had a man in her life.

It's hard for me to come right out and say he did it, because I wasn't there and didn't witness what happened. All I know is that knowing her like I did, I truly believe she would have done him in instead of suicide. Rae Ann was a very strong and determined person. She didn't take crapola off of anyone, and I guess some could say they were probably scared of her.

There was a person who did me wrong in high school - broke into my locker and stole a bunch of personal notes. Why this person did that, I will never know. I didn't know this person and we weren't friends. This person was a couple years younger than I was. Anyway, Rae Ann found out who did it...retreived the notes...and then proceeded to beat the snot out of this person. Rae Ann had no stake in those notes - but I did.

She was a tough cookie and not one to let someone run her over or to let emotions get to her. She would have beat him...broken his things...wrecked his car...shot him...but I seriously doubt she would have killed herself over him.

Based on that, and based on everything we know of Rae Ann as presented in the segment, I think she was a very, shall we say, "temperamental" person.

I think that Rae Ann either:

1) committed suicide
2) went to kill her boyfriend and he killed her in self-defense or it discharged accidentally.

I think the only person responsible for the death of Rae Ann Mossor is...Rae Ann Mossor!

Based on that, and based on everything we know of Rae Ann as presented in the segment, I think she was a very, shall we say, "temperamental" person.

I think that Rae Ann either:

1) committed suicide
2) went to kill her boyfriend and he killed her in self-defense or it discharged accidentally.

I think the only person responsible for the death of Rae Ann Mossor is...Rae Ann Mossor!

I agree. Rae Ann was the one who confronted her boyfriend with a loaded shotgun, and she was the one who was heard threatening to kill herself. I tend to think that if she didn't commit suicide, in some sort of struggle over the gun it accidentally discharged and shot her.

Your posts throughout this entire thread have been ridiculous, along with your libel/slander game.

Point 1 isn't mutually exclusive. Common sense dictates that.
Point 2, so he could call it a "suicide." I don't know?
Point 4, this one shouldn't be addressed to anyone with the reasoning capacity of a 5th grader. There are plenty of people who do drugs and have a sound mental state, just as there are plenty who have a sound mental state and do drugs. Human variation dictates that. Just because you smoke pot or blow some coke doesn't mean their reasoning or judgment are diminished when not high.
Point 5, witness or not is irrelevant to this thread. People say things. Some are trolls, and some are credible. It doesn't hurt to get extra info. You're not an investigator, no matter what you'd like to think.

cocytus hasn't posted in about three years and is almost certainly not coming back.

cocytus hasn't posted in about three years and is almost certainly not coming back.

He may be gone, but the condescension lives on. ;)

cocytus hasn't posted in about three years and is almost certainly not coming back.

lol, the board in general here is very slow, where threads live on for ten years. Good, he won't come back.

cocytus hasn't posted in about three years and is almost certainly not coming back.
I always wondered how to pronounce his name, though....

Even if the boyfriend can be considered a suspect, there isn't any identifiable motive. Heck, he was done with her, it was her that wanted to continue the relationship. I don't know why Rae Ann felt compelled to go over to his house to confront him when a phone call would have done the job. Truth be told, and this is just my opinion, but from the sounds of it she was harassing him.

I thought her parents didn't come off as terribly sincere or convincing. The mother stated "she was charged and convicted of a crime she didn't commit." Based on that and other things they said, it was as if they were more concerned with the shame they felt over having people believe their daughter committed suicide and wanted to 'clear her name.' The broomstick recreation in the kitchen I found to be a bit silly. I remember the mother saying something to the effect of 'my arm is right close to my daughter.' Close? Er, I don't think that's going to cut it. Exact measurements please.

I also found something the mother said at the end of the segment to be kind of suspicious: She said that she made a promise to Rae Ann at her funeral "If this isn't what it looks like..." That makes me believe she knew it was suicide, but couldn't come to grips with it.

I also wasn't convinced of the testimony of the "ballistics expert", who banged the gun on the ground a few times and determined from that there was no way the gun could discharge accidentally. Sure. I didn't find Dr. John Butts to be particularly credible either.

It would be helpful to know if Rae Ann was left or right handed. There have been instances where people have committed suicide with shotgun. I think one likely scenario was that she was mad, threw the gun in frustration on the trunk of the car and it went off. There are conflicting reports on whether or not it was a contact wound.

Honestly, I think this was a case of the parents not being able to accept suicide or accident, when it was one of the two.

I really don't think we know everything about this case. We don't know who this man was. He could have been lying about all things. I don't trust everything that was said in the segment. Someone put that gun on the car.

I really don't think we know everything about this case. We don't know who this man was. He could have been lying about all things. I don't trust everything that was said in the segment. Someone put that gun on the car.

I agree. The segment focuses almost entirely on debunking the mechanics of Rae Ann shooting herself with that shotgun and the Mossors' struggle to get a reinvestigation of their daughter's death, but we know next to nothing about the shotgun itself, Rae Ann's boyfriend, her past or what her life was like in the months preceding her death, her gunshot wounds, or anything.

According to what was presented in the segment, two professionally trained physicians testified she couldn't have possibly shot herself, and that weapon was (as far as I know) found on the trunk of that vehicle. That's about all we actually know. I tend to side with them in the absence of other pertinent facts.

Where was Rae Ann's wound located? I haven't seen the segment in awhile, but if it was lower torso, would it be possible that she leaned over the hood/trunk of the car while she pulled the trigger?

The segment reaired on Monday I believe (I was watching it yesterday before I left for work). I believe she was shot in in the torso right below the breast area. Put if she had shot herself on the trunk why wasn't any blood on the car? And wouldn't the gun not be laying perfectly on the trunk? It would seem to me that the blowback of the gun would have knocked it off the car. Plus would her body be laying beside the car. I would think her body would have fallen back with her shoes facing the car.

Hmm, I always thought the bf did it :/ I mean, the gun was longer than her arms, then he hears a shotgun and refuses to look out and the lame, "She said what do I have to do, kill myself?" Um....lol that makes no sense. But apparently great excuse because they ruled it suicide!

Where was Rae Ann's wound located? I haven't seen the segment in awhile, but if it was lower torso, would it be possible that she leaned over the hood/trunk of the car while she pulled the trigger?

Just rewatched. "Almost directly" to the right chest, according to Dr. Di Maio. Also in the reenactment of the autopsy--which I suppose might have been taken from the official transcript of the actual autopsy (although I don't know this for sure)--the M.E. speaks about a wound to the anterior chest. The lower frontal torso would be described as the anterior abdomen.

But apparently great excuse because they ruled it suicide!

I actually do think this testimony might have swayed investigators AND the M.E. Whether out of sheer investigative laziness or active corruption, I don't know.

Not all medical examiners are bastions of truth and objectivity, after all. Fahmy Malak is a prime example. Anybody with any smidge of political power in Arkansas throughout the 1980s basically could count on Malak to rule in their favor upon request.

The segment didn't talk about blood, so it's impossible to know where any was found.

The "ballistics expert" was a phony. Banging the gun on the ground a few times and determing from that it was impossible the gun could have discharged accidentally. Nobody ever claimed the gun was banged on the ground. It's never really stated, but since the gun was found on the car, I think the people believing accidental discharge meant she threw it on the car and then it discharged. The gun can't fly off the ground onto the car, so I don't know what banging on the ground proves. Nothing.

The segment didn't talk about blood, so it's impossible to know where any was found.

The "ballistics expert" was a phony. Banging the gun on the ground a few times and determing from that it was impossible the gun could have discharged accidentally. Nobody ever claimed the gun was banged on the ground. It's never really stated, but since the gun was found on the car, I think the people believing accidental discharge meant she threw it on the car and then it discharged. The gun can't fly off the ground onto the car, so I don't know what banging on the ground proves. Nothing.

I believe the reason why he struck the shotgun as he did was because that's generally the circumstances under which firearms without a drop safety and/or with a malfunctioning firing pin will discharge without a trigger pull--that is, they're dropped to the ground. I think if Rae Ann had thrown the weapon on the trunk and it discharged, it wouldn't have stayed on the trunk. Twelve gauge shotguns have a powerful recoil.

I mentioned this in another post, but one circumstance in which a negligent discharge with a shotgun often happens is when someone is engaging the trigger while loading a shell into the chamber. That sounds like a pretty no-brainer thing to avoid doing, but people sometimes do it. Of course, Rae Ann couldn't have killed herself this way, but it might explain what happened on the other end.

I don't know how close to reality the segment was, but I wonder if she actually was left out in the street by herself. You'd think her former boyfriend would have been out there at least watching for police or EMS.

For those who have watched the segment recently, weren't there other witnesses to Rae Ann's behavior besides her boyfriend?

For those who have watched the segment recently, weren't there other witnesses to Rae Ann's behavior besides her boyfriend?

RS mentions in the segment that she was heard by three other people threatening to kill herself. What isn't made clear is whether those people were outdoors. This was an early February night in a mountainous region of Virginia--it was probably pretty cold outside, so I'm not sure if those people were eyewitnesses (you can always go out or peer out your window, after all) or merely earwitnesses. In whatever event, it seems no one actually saw what happened when the shotgun discharged.

ETA: The newspaper article I linked a few pages back has two people who lived in the same house saying they heard Rae Ann yelling, but only Rae Ann's boyfriend saying anything about her making a statement about suicide.

Interestingly, a passing motorist was the one who called emergency services after finding Rae Ann in the street--not her boyfriend or any of the other two people in the house. So clearly, the call wasn't made in response to a shot fired; it was made only when a non-witness third party happened upon Rae Ann's body.

Interestingly, a passing motorist was the one who called emergency services after finding Rae Ann in the street--not her boyfriend or any of the other two people in the house. So clearly, the call wasn't made in response to a shot fired; it was made only when a non-witness third party happened upon Rae Ann's body.


And how suspicious is that! Wouldn't you think that one of the people in the house, her boyfriend or his friends, would have called EMS and said that Rae Ann had shown up there, flew into a rage, threatening violence against them and herself or whatever, and then got a shotgun from her car, shot herself in the street, and they need help NOW?

But no. She's lying there outside the boyfriends house. No one is too concerned. No one tries to call for help, or check to see if she's alive, or perform CPR while they wait for an ambulance. They go back to watching TV or whatever. And a stranger, a passing motorist, sees her in the street and calls for help.

Interestingly, a passing motorist was the one who called emergency services after finding Rae Ann in the street--not her boyfriend or any of the other two people in the house. So clearly, the call wasn't made in response to a shot fired; it was made only when a non-witness third party happened upon Rae Ann's body.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1298&dat=19870820&id=nftNAAAAIBAJ&sjid=j4sDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6936,3524117

Is this the article? Because this article says that police were already on their way over there to report to a disturbance (called by the boyfriend) when the motorist called 911. So they did make the call beforehand, which would make the boyfriend murder theory that much less likely, IMO.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1298&dat=19870820&id=nftNAAAAIBAJ&sjid=j4sDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6936,3524117

Is this the article? Because this article says that police were already on their way over there to report to a disturbance (called by the boyfriend) when the motorist called 911. So they did make the call beforehand, which would make the boyfriend murder theory that much less likely, IMO.

That's the one. While the call wasn't made by the motorist, it's still not a certainty that her boyfriend or anyone in the house was the one who called police, although that's likely.

WTH wasn't he out there is still a question I have, if the reenactment is accurate.

"woman had come in and started yelling." That pretty much confirms my belief she was hysterical.

It's also important to note that the newspaper article says she was found behind the parked car. The segment depicts she was laying on the ground next to the driver's side of the car, paralell to the car. One poster had stated it was unlikely it could have been accidental discharge and her body found in that place. But seeing that she was found behind the parked car, that pretty much dispels that.

That article also dispels the myth that this was an incompetent job done by the original M.E. He changed the official cause to undetermined after Dr. Butts wrote a letter to him saying suicide was unlikely. Now if there was any shred of evidence that the boyfriend was outside with Rae Ann at any point, I would think LE would have been more insistent that there was a possibility that he was involved. The other 2 people inside the house probably corroborated his story about what happened. But it is odd that he wasn't outside when police arrived (if the segment is accurate).

That article also dispels the myth that this was an incompetent job done by the original M.E. He changed the official cause to undetermined after Dr. Butts wrote a letter to him saying suicide was unlikely.

If two of his peers (outside examiners hundreds of miles apart from one another, to boot) each came to a conclusion that indicates anything but suicide, I'm not sure how that bolsters the original M.E.'s competency.

Now if there was any shred of evidence that the boyfriend was outside with Rae Ann at any point, I would think LE would have been more insistent that there was a possibility that he was involved. The other 2 people inside the house probably corroborated his story about what happened. But it is odd that he wasn't outside when police arrived (if the segment is accurate).

I would like to think so, but that isn't always the case, unfortunately.

There's so many things that would be helpful to know about this case. Who were the people in that house? Who was the boyfriend? Whose shotgun?

The segment depicts she was laying on the ground next to the driver's side of the car, paralell to the car. One poster had stated it was unlikely it could have been accidental discharge and her body found in that place. But seeing that she was found behind the parked car, that pretty much dispels that.

I think it could have been a negligent discharge for sure.

Again, I think it's important to note women don't tend to own or use 12-gauge shotguns. They tend toward larger gauges. That's not to say that the weapon couldn't have belonged to Rae Ann's father or even Rae Ann herself, but it's worthy of note I think.

There's no way she could have reached the trigger and the firearm was exceptionally long for a shotgun. Two independent medical examiners reported that her wounds do not indicate a suicide, and the shotgun simply wouldn't have stayed on the trunk had she been able to reach that trigger in the first place. I maintain it definitely wasn't a suicide. A negligent discharge by a second party, absolutely possible in my estimation.

If two of his peers (outside examiners hundreds of miles apart from one another, to boot) each came to a conclusion that indicates anything but suicide, I'm not sure how that bolsters the original M.E.'s competency.

They didn't rule out suicide, just stated that it was highly unlikely. Then the original ME changed his official ruling. Some posters have previously said that LE and ME bungled the investigation and did not want to admit mistakes. The ME changing his official ruling refutes this.

They didn't rule out suicide, just stated that it was highly unlikely. Then the original ME changed his official ruling. Some posters have previously said that LE and ME bungled the investigation and did not want to admit mistakes. The ME changing his official ruling refutes this.

Maybe. He did only change the cause of death to 'undetermined', and apparently left it at that. There was also never a reinvestigation by LE, despite the change of the final autopsy ruling.

I hate to speculate about this, but Rae Ann's father in particular was pretty frank about his dissatisfaction with the investigation and ruling, and her mother alluded to having a pretty strong personality herself. There's nothing wrong with that, and I don't at all fault them for being angry after finding out no autopsy was performed after being specifically told that there would be one, among other things. But I have to wonder if LE and the ME's office didn't dig in their heels after what I imagine would have been a heated confrontation with the Mossors--a definite butting of heads, if you will.

I doubt a different approach would have yielded drastically different results, but this was just something I always wondered about.

Maybe. He did only change the cause of death to 'undetermined', and apparently left it at that. There was also never a reinvestigation by LE, despite the change of the final autopsy ruling.

I hate to speculate about this, but Rae Ann's father in particular was pretty frank about his dissatisfaction with the investigation and ruling, and her mother alluded to having a pretty strong personality herself. There's nothing wrong with that, and I don't at all fault them for being angry after finding out no autopsy was performed after being specifically told that there would be one, among other things. But I have to wonder if LE and the ME's office didn't dig in their heels after what I imagine would have been a heated confrontation with the Mossors--a definite butting of heads, if you will.

I doubt a different approach would have yielded drastically different results, but this was just something I always wondered about.

I'm actually baffled as to why they didn't do an autopsy. I thought LE treated all deaths as homicides first, before moving elsewhere? I'm also fairly certain that if the shotgun did not belong to Rae Ann, this would have been mentioned by her parents as further proof of a homicide.

I'm actually baffled as to why they didn't do an autopsy. I thought LE treated all deaths as homicides first, before moving elsewhere?

I was under that impression too, and though it was standard procedure. I've since run across a few cases where they were just wrapped up as suicides and not investigated.

Robert Dirschel's case is one that was treated as suicide with no investigation. I don't even think the police fingerprinted the gun or anything. And this was a guy with a pistol in his nightstand but instead of using that, he takes off his shoe and pulls the trigger of the shotgun with his toe because he was so distraught over a mild case of athlete's foot? That never made sense.

I've mentioned elsewhere on this forum about some UM cases where the police say that every death scene is investigated as a homicide/foul play first and when that's eliminated, they move on to other theories/suicide. Then the next segment will come on depicting a pretty obvious murder that doesn't get investigated as a suspicious scenario at all.

I have always thought this one was a sad and tragic suicide. I think she was young emotional and made impulsive choice. I just can't get over the other witnesses that heard her distraught yelling she was going to kill herself. You have medical experts that dispute each other findings but you have that a lot. (Defense, prosecution experts ect). So, for me the other other witnesses besides the boyfriend saying she was going to kill herself makes me believe it was suicide. Cases like Keith Warren are definitely a murder but this one has always been a suicide to me.

I have always thought this one was a sad and tragic suicide. I think she was young emotional and made impulsive choice. I just can't get over the other witnesses that heard her distraught yelling she was going to kill herself. You have medical experts that dispute each other findings but you have that a lot. (Defense, prosecution experts ect). So, for me the other other witnesses besides the boyfriend saying she was going to kill herself makes me believe it was suicide. Cases like Keith Warren are definitely a murder but this one has always been a suicide to me.

Witnesses that if they were close to the boyfriend would have every motive to lie.

From information I've found in different articles of the case, it appears they were independent witnesses. the boyfriend lives in an apartment type building with close very neighbors coming and going. Its very easy for neighbors who are coming or going to hear a someone say that. Second, I have very good friends but I don't think a single one of them would lie to LE for me especially if it was to get me out of a possible murder. Of course, friends have done that for people but just to assume witnesses would lie for someone is making great asssumptions. But again, from the info Ive gathered these were independent witnesses. This one I do think was a suicide.

From information I've found in different articles of the case, it appears they were independent witnesses. the boyfriend lives in an apartment type building with close very neighbors coming and going. Its very easy for neighbors who are coming or going to hear a someone say that. Second, I have very good friends but I don't think a single one of them would lie to LE for me especially if it was to get me out of a possible murder. Of course, friends have done that for people but just to assume witnesses would lie for someone is making great asssumptions. But again, from the info Ive gathered these were independent witnesses. This one I do think was a suicide.

I agree. I don't think his friends would have covered for him this long if the guy was in fact involved in Rae Ann's murder.

I never knew what to make of it based on the scant info. I think the circumstantial evidence strongly suggests suicide, but the ballistics and medical evidence suggest an accident or possibly a murder. Not unlike other UM "suicide vs. murder" stories (e.g., Digman, Williams, Ladner). I some times wonder if it's a matter of paying the right expert the right amount to get a statement consistent with the pre-determined direction.

I never knew what to make of it based on the scant info. I think the circumstantial evidence strongly suggests suicide, but the ballistics and medical evidence suggest an accident or possibly a murder. Not unlike other UM "suicide vs. murder" stories (e.g., Digman, Williams, Ladner). I some times wonder if it's a matter of paying the right expert the right amount to get a statement consistent with the pre-determined direction.

Ladner I definitely believe was murder. During that time period in those parts, drug running was huge and many LE officials and even higher were involved. That's why I always believed Ladner's mother when she said someone at the ME's office came up to her and told her "You will never catch the person who did this to your son, you have other children, I suggest you raise them." Plus, according to everyone he was a happy and healthy boy so suicide doesn't make sense and the evidence doesn't point to accident in that case. Its very much similar to the "Friends to the End" of the boys on the track. Since then many books and articles have come out implicating a large drug smuggling operation in which some LE and high government officials were involved.

Rae Ann, based on witnesses testimony, was emotionally distraught at the time of her death. So emotionally distraught she was outwardly yelling how she was going to kill herself. There is no suspect (even in the episode the parents don't point to the boyfriend and neither did the grand jury.) Its a hell of a coincidence that someone is incredibly emotionally distraught over a breakup to the point of threatening suicide, and then ends up murdered outside in public view? It just doesn't seem likely. In all likelihood, Rae Ann made in an impulsive decision that was tragically permanent.

Rae Ann is different from the other murder vs. suicide segments featured on UM. Forensics seemed to indicate that Rae Ann was in close proximity to the weapon when it discharged. I think there were powder burns on her left wrist. Granted, if she grabbed the gun while someone else shot her this would result in the powder burns. But there were 3 witnesses (besides the boyfriend) who said she was threatening to kill herself. The scene seemed to indicate that she committed suicide as well. Her body was found next on the ground next to the boyfriend's car. Her car had her door wide open with music blaring. Investigators assumed she left the car in a hurry. IMO, she did this to confront the boyfriend. It's been awhile since I've seen the segment, but didn't the shotgun belong to Rae Ann?

How could she fire the shotgun at herself and end up with the wound toward the center of her chest if she couldn't even reach it? That's the entire case to me right there. And three witnesses saying that they heard Rae Ann asking if she should kill herself doesn't really hold much water to me. That could have being in the heat of an argument and she could have been shot by her boyfriend moments later.

the lack of an apparent motive, suspect and the deceased's statement regarding killing herself all point to suicide.

Initially, the issue of could she have killed herself given the trajectory, placement of the gun and stuff related to this did bother me, but it was the weapon that happened to be around, and she probably didn't have any alternatives in regard to which weapons to use. She probably found a way to make it work since nothing else was available.

Another nagging question I have is: who would have known about the shotgun in her car except her? It's probably not something she went around telling everybody.

here's something I just thought of: what if the boyfriend realized she was about to committ suicide tried to discourage her by taking the gun away but it ended up going off somehow?

Sorry to bump an old post but this is a possibility. Last year my friend asked me to go with him to a viewing for a friend from work that passed away. I went & i noticed she was really young. I didn't go see her in her casket, I noticed in the photos they had in the entrance.

Anyways, her bf went up to speak & was distraught. He couldn't speak & needed someone to help me off the podium. Afterwards, my friend told me her sister had told them they got into an argument. She was drunk and had a gun & kept making threats that she'd do it. He tried taking the gun from her & in the struggle she shot herself in the heart.

How could she fire the shotgun at herself and end up with the wound toward the center of her chest if she couldn't even reach it? That's the entire case to me right there. And three witnesses saying that they heard Rae Ann asking if she should kill herself doesn't really hold much water to me. That could have being in the heat of an argument and she could have been shot by her boyfriend moments later.

Accidental discharge is a possibility. You had an "expert" on there who banged the gun on the ground a few times and claimed there was no way the gun could accidentally discharge. I thought that was all baloney. The parents broomstick recreation with the mom's arm length "about as same" as Rae Ann's didn't do anything for me either.

The statement of "What do I have to do to prove my love for you, kill myself?" fits with the known facts of the case. Rae Ann was reportedly pissed off about the status of their relationships, so it fits in that context, making it easier to believe. I would have an easier time believing the boyfriend could be responsible if there was a known motive, but there wasn't. He was done with her and she was the one who wasn't taking it well.

If there was an update to the case, I'd possibly be more apt to change my tune, but there wasn't. No report of additional suspects, potential motives, additional outside info, eyewitness accounts, nothing.

That is exactly what I think happened. They are arguing, and she is being dramatic. She says "What do I have to do, kill myself?" She points the gun at herself and he tries to take it away. In the struggle, one of them accidentally bumps the trigger. I assume it would be him, because of the info about her arm not being long enough to reach the trigger if she's holding it to her chest. I don't think he meant to kill her, and I don't really think she meant to kill herself. I think it was probably a heat-of-the-moment accidental thing.

That is exactly what I think happened. They are arguing, and she is being dramatic. She says "What do I have to do, kill myself?" She points the gun at herself and he tries to take it away. In the struggle, one of them accidentally bumps the trigger. I assume it would be him, because of the info about her arm not being long enough to reach the trigger if she's holding it to her chest. I don't think he meant to kill her, and I don't really think she meant to kill herself. I think it was probably a heat-of-the-moment accidental thing.

That always seemed like a comfortable fit to me. Sort of like a good compromise between the suicide and murder theories.

Accidental discharge is a possibility. You had an "expert" on there who banged the gun on the ground a few times and claimed there was no way the gun could accidentally discharge. I thought that was all baloney. The parents broomstick recreation with the mom's arm length "about as same" as Rae Ann's didn't do anything for me either.

The statement of "What do I have to do to prove my love for you, kill myself?" fits with the known facts of the case. Rae Ann was reportedly pissed off about the status of their relationships, so it fits in that context, making it easier to believe. I would have an easier time believing the boyfriend could be responsible if there was a known motive, but there wasn't. He was done with her and she was the one who wasn't taking it well.

If there was an update to the case, I'd possibly be more apt to change my tune, but there wasn't. No report of additional suspects, potential motives, additional outside info, eyewitness accounts, nothing.

Errrmmm are you sure it's baloney, or is it just not what you want to hear? I mean, the gun was tested. It didn't discharge. I'm not sure what more you want to see. I mean it could still discharge, but it appeared it would have been extremely rare.

And like I said, how could she have reached the trigger? and shot herself in the chest if her arms weren't long enough? And it wasn't just the parents that did that experiment from what I recall. They had another expert on the segment that displayed how it would have been impossible for her to reach the trigger. Maybe it was her dad.

If she killed herself without anyone else touching the gun, that would be have been one hell of an attempt.

Errrmmm are you sure it's baloney, or is it just not what you want to hear? I mean, the gun was tested. It didn't discharge. I'm not sure what more you want to see. I mean it could still discharge, but it appeared it would have been extremely rare.

And like I said, how could she have reached the trigger? and shot herself in the chest if her arms weren't long enough? And it wasn't just the parents that did that experiment from what I recall. They had another expert on the segment that displayed how it would have been impossible for her to reach the trigger. Maybe it was her dad.

If she killed herself without anyone else touching the gun, that would be have been one hell of an attempt.

Friend, banging a gun on the ground a few times does not qualify as a "scientific experiment." I know that, and I've never touched a gun in my life.

Rare? Perhaps. But it only takes one time.

I think there are many different possibilities as to what happened here, and I've come up with various theories over the years.

Another one I just thought of: since the gun was found on the hood of the car and one of the doors was open, I think perhaps she tossed it on the there with the intent of showing it to the boyfriend to prove her seriousness (but not using it), shutting the car door, grabbing the gun again and going up to the house. She tosses it in frustration and is so mad that she doesn't realize the seriousness of it and it goes off. That's a scenario which makes all the pieces fit.

Friend, banging a gun on the ground a few times does not qualify as a "scientific experiment." I know that, and I've never touched a gun in my life.

Rare? Perhaps. But it only takes one time.

I think there are many different possibilities as to what happened here, and I've come up with various theories over the years.

Another one I just thought of: since the gun was found on the hood of the car and one of the doors was open, I think perhaps she tossed it on the there with the intent of showing it to the boyfriend to prove her seriousness (but not using it), shutting the car door, grabbing the gun again and going up to the house. She tosses it in frustration and is so mad that she doesn't realize the seriousness of it and it goes off. That's a scenario which makes all the pieces fit.
I think that's even more improbable though. I still think the most plausible is that she was shot considering she could even reach the trigger of the gun and it was found on the hood of the car. What she apparently said doesn't really prove anything.

As far as the experiment to discharge the gun is concerned, I'm just asking what you would have like to seen to further prove that the gun could or could not discharge.

I really just think it was a suicide. I think the chance of her screaming she wanted to kill herself and being that distressed and then the victim of a homicide is extremely slim. There were different opinion by different experts. Cases like Mike O'Mara the circumstances definitely point to homicide but given these circumstances, I definitely lean toward suicide

I'm so on the fence with this one. It seems like such a strange way to kill yourself, but I think its certainly plausible...

I've always felt like this was probably an accidental shooting, not a suicide. I've posted many times in this thread and have outlined reasoned explanations, but on top of that, I've just always had a feeling that woman didn't kill herself. Can't articulate why, I just do.

I've always felt like this was probably an accidental shooting, not a suicide. I've posted many times in this thread and have outlined reasoned explanations, but on top of that, I've just always had a feeling that woman didn't kill herself. Can't articulate why, I just do.

My best guess has always been that Reigh Ann went to the house to confront the boyfriend over something, and was trying to get his attention thus the loud music. He came out and maybe told her to get lost, and she picked up the shotgun threatening to kill herself, and when he tried to get it away from her, the gun went off and she was accidentally shot. He could have been charged with manslaughter for such a thing, so his family panicked and helped him covered it up not wanting him to go to prison for a couple of years over an accident.

As far as the experiment to discharge the gun is concerned, I'm just asking what you would have like to seen to further prove that the gun could or could not discharge.

Guns accidentally discharge. UM has even presented some cases of it. Off the top of my head, the hunter who fell out of his blind and the gun hit the ground and went off, shot him and almost killed him.

That idiot "expert" who banged the gun on the ground wasn't even testing a realistic situation. The gun was found on the hood of the car. Does he mean to suggest that the gun was dropped on the ground and then bounced up on top of the car? His experiment was completely and utterly worthless.

Guns do accidentally discharge at times so there's no need to have a discussion over it. It's like trying to argue the Earth isn't round.

Assuming there were tests done, wouldn't the boyfriend's prints be found on the gun or his hands have gunshot residue if they were in fact struggling for the gun?

Assuming there were tests done, wouldn't the boyfriend's prints be found on the gun or his hands have gunshot residue if they were in fact struggling for the gun?

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.

Another thing is that if the boyfriend shot her, wouldn't throwing the gun on the grass have been a better and more likelier option since it would have made less noise? Placing the gun on the roof of the car seems...weird. Unless he gently placed it on there, which I doubt, the thing would have made more noise, running the risk of drawing even more attention to the scene (after the noise of the shotgun blast).

I used to think this was murder, but now I think this may have been an accident. Rae Ann may have been extremely emotional, threatening suicide by brandishing it, and somehow caused it to go off. Then, because she had threatened suicide, everyone automatically assumes that's what happened. I don't think it was a suicide. The trajectory of the bullet and it laying on the trunk bothers me.

I can envision a scenario where Rae Ann places the shotgun on the trunk of the car, shimmies up against the car to where she can reach the trigger, and shooting herself.

I definitely think the parents were grasping at straws on this one, now that I think about it. For one, the mother claims that Rae Ann's arms measured 29 inches...how would she know this?! Assuming that she got this information from an autopsy report (seems unlikely, since she used this among other evidence for the state to perform an autopsy), this does not mean it is true...autopsy reports get heights, weights, etc. wrong all the time. UM even says, "according to Ann Mossor..." with regards to Rae Ann's arm length. For all we know, she could have reached the gun with no problem. Their "evidence" of murder, according to UM, was the fact that the gun was found on the trunk, the key being left in the ignition, the driver's door being open, and the music in the car being turned up loud. That's it.

The only piece of evidence, IMO, that would suggest something shady went on was the gunshot residue being found on her left wrist. Even the medical examiner they contacted, Dr. Butts, did not conclusively say that she could not have killed herself. IIRC, he says something like she could have been holding the gun, or grabbing for the gun, but he couldn't say who was on the other end of the gun near the trigger.

I can envision a scenario where Rae Ann places the shotgun on the trunk of the car, shimmies up against the car to where she can reach the trigger, and shooting herself.

I definitely think the parents were grasping at straws on this one, now that I think about it. For one, the mother claims that Rae Ann's arms measured 29 inches...how would she know this?! Assuming that she got this information from an autopsy report (seems unlikely, since she used this among other evidence for the state to perform an autopsy), this does not mean it is true...autopsy reports get heights, weights, etc. wrong all the time. UM even says, "according to Ann Mossor..." with regards to Rae Ann's arm length. For all we know, she could have reached the gun with no problem. Their "evidence" of murder, according to UM, was the fact that the gun was found on the trunk, the key being left in the ignition, the driver's door being open, and the music in the car being turned up loud. That's it.

The only piece of evidence, IMO, that would suggest something shady went on was the gunshot residue being found on her left wrist. Even the medical examiner they contacted, Dr. Butts, did not conclusively say that she could not have killed herself. IIRC, he says something like she could have been holding the gun, or grabbing for the gun, but he couldn't say who was on the other end of the gun near the trigger.

My god, we actually agree on something. What happens now, does the internet shut down? :lol:

The only thing I would have to add is that during the infamous broomstick recreation in the Mossor's kitchen, you had the mother saying something to the effect of "My arm is bout the same as my daughter's". That didn't cut it for me. About the same is not the same, you need exact measurements while doing this sort of thing.

Guns accidentally discharge. UM has even presented some cases of it. Off the top of my head, the hunter who fell out of his blind and the gun hit the ground and went off, shot him and almost killed him.

That idiot "expert" who banged the gun on the ground wasn't even testing a realistic situation. The gun was found on the hood of the car. Does he mean to suggest that the gun was dropped on the ground and then bounced up on top of the car? His experiment was completely and utterly worthless.

Guns do accidentally discharge at times so there's no need to have a discussion over it. It's like trying to argue the Earth isn't round.
Which leads more credence to the angle that she didn't shoot herself. The gun couldn't discharge and then magically be on the hood of the car.

I always felt folks brushed over that fact which was the obvious thing to her not killing herself. The gun was on the trunk of the car.

And I hate to sound mean when I say this, but the analogy of a gun sometimes discharging to the Earth being round is well...terrible. Guns sometimes can discharge. The Earth is always round.

Which leads more credence to the angle that she didn't shoot herself. The gun couldn't discharge and then magically be on the hood of the car.

I always felt folks brushed over that fact which was the obvious thing to her not killing herself. The gun was on the trunk of the car.

And I hate to sound mean when I say this, but the analogy of a gun sometimes discharging to the Earth being round is well...terrible. Guns sometimes can discharge. The Earth is always round.

Except if she threw it on there, which I discussed.

I talked about how the 'banging the gun on the ground' experiment was worthless (which it was), you asked me what more I wanted to see, I replied that guns do accidentally discharge at times (which they do). There's really no need to continue the debate. Guns accidentally discharge at times. Saying that they don't is like arguing the Earth is flat. Not a terrible analogy at all.

Given that most of the people posting recently on this thread believe she was not murdered, I don't know why you keep singling out my posts. Do you have a problem with me personally?

I also don't care for your snotty line "Errrmmm are you sure it's baloney, or is it just not what you want to hear."

Pardon me? I had no horse in this race going in, I didn't know (and still don't know) any of the players in this case so why would I care? You seem to suggest I'm tailoring the evidence to fit a preconceived notion when nothing could be further from the truth.

Look, most of the people on here don't think she was murdered, there were no eyewitnesses that saw she was murdered, nobody testifying on suspicious behavior on the boyfriend's part, no other suspects, no known motives, no God damn anything. What more do you want, surveillance camera footage?

Except if she threw it on there, which I discussed.

I talked about how the 'banging the gun on the ground' experiment was worthless (which it was), you asked me what more I wanted to see, I replied that guns do accidentally discharge at times (which they do). There's really no need to continue the debate. Guns accidentally discharge at times. Saying that they don't is like arguing the Earth is flat. Not a terrible analogy at all.

Given that most of the people posting recently on this thread believe she was not murdered, I don't know why you keep singling out my posts. Do you have a problem with me personally?

I also don't care for your snotty line "Errrmmm are you sure it's baloney, or is it just not what you want to hear."

Pardon me? I had no horse in this race going in, I didn't know (and still don't know) any of the players in this case so why would I care? You seem to suggest I'm tailoring the evidence to fit a preconceived notion when nothing could be further from the truth.

Look, most of the people on here don't think she was murdered, there were no eyewitnesses that saw she was murdered, nobody testifying on suspicious behavior on the boyfriend's part, no other suspects, no known motives, no God damn anything. What more do you want, surveillance camera footage?
Why are you getting mad over the internet? I'm not targeting you via your posts. I'm not sure why you believe I have some kind of personal vendetta against you in regards to discussing this case. I'm not taking issue with you even if I disagree with some of the ideas in your posts. So stop playing the victim card my friend. Let's not get it twisted. No one is out to get you. And you started talking to me first by quoting a post of mine.

And it doesn't really matter if the majority of people believe she killed herself in this thread. That doesn't prove anything whatsoever (Argumentum ad populum). And I don't want anything (other than the mystery to be solved). I've already made my stance clear on what I feel happened. We obviously won't agree.

By the way no one ever said guns don't discharge.

By the way no one ever said guns don't discharge.

I assume you mean accidentally discharge.

No, you pretended the guy's experiment was legit and that it wouldn't accidentally discharge. I've already outlined the reason why that experiment was bogus, that the gun could have accidentally discharged and how the experiment didn't even relate to this case.

Do you honestly think that because that guy banged the gun on the ground a few times that it proved it couldn't have accidentally discharged and shot Rae Ann?

My god, we actually agree on something. What happens now, does the internet shut down? :lol:

I was actually over here singing a song from The Princess Diaries, which my daughter LOVES. "Miracles happen once in a while... when you believe." :D :D :D :D

I was actually over here singing a song from The Princess Diaries, which my daughter LOVES. "Miracles happen once in a while... when you believe." :D :D :D :D

party:

I'm surprised UM even took this case. Nothing to suggest murder outside of a couple of the most amateurish tests/recreations I've ever seen. I think it's pretty telling the Mossors seemed more interested in shedding what they believed was the shame of having their daughter's death labeled a suicide than going after the "killer".

I'm surprised UM even took this case. Nothing to suggest murder outside of a couple of the most amateurish tests/recreations I've ever seen. I think it's pretty telling the Mossors seemed more interested in shedding what they believed was the shame of having their daughter's death labeled a suicide than going after the "killer".

This is actually a very good point.

Usually on UM's murder vs. suicide segments, they give alternate scenarios and suspects to support the murder theory. Outside of some subtle hints about the boyfriend, this segment features none. Even when UM can't publically name a suspect or person of interest (due to fear of a lawsuit), they still present that as a possibility. Like Tony Lombardi for example: UM played up the fact that he was seeing someone involved with someone else and that he was threatened. You get none of this from Rae Ann's segment. Not a word was mentioned about the boyfriend. I wonder if the boyfriend had moved on and this is what sent Rae Ann into a frenzy.

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but the strongest evidence leaning towards a suicide is the victim's own words. I fully believe that she said what she was quoted as having been said, however in my mind it's hard to really quantify the context under which that statement was made. If there's any truth in what that JohnieP1981 (sp) poster was saying, it could've been she may have said that to appease this ex-boyfriend. I really wanted to see that test done where they determine how much weight is required to be placed on a trigger before there's discharge. I also wanted to see a re-enactment of the supposed suicide. This would remove doubts as to whether the discharge was accidental, and also as to whether or not Ms. Mossor could've killed herself.

If we're to assume that the shotgun didn't have a hair trigger, and assume Ms. Mossor was the last and only person to touch that gun when she was alive and until LE touched it, than I trouble believing it was a suicide. The questions that could determine what happened are:

- Again, how much weight was required to active the trigger? If it took quite a bit of pressure, then it's safe to say the gun wasn't fired accidentally
- How far away was the gun when it was discharged?
- How much time passed from when Rae Ann's supposed suicide words, to the actual gunshot?
- Is it scientifically possible for Rae Ann's body to be where it was (I believe she was parallel w/ the automobile, w/ her feet facing the direction towards the front of the car), and the gun to be where it was, w/o any tampering? Where her shoes found on her feet? It seems virtually impossible for her to have fired that shotgun w/ her hands, into her chest, and to have landed in the position she was found in, and the gun to be perfectly parallel along the trunk
-Neighbors apparently heard Ms. Mossor's suicide threat. Well, was that the only thing that was heard from the argument? How much did they hear?

I did find the fact it said I think the car or radio was found running was a little suspicious, but that call on either side of the fence. The only thing I find that would suggest it was a suicide, and that has me torn, is how did the bf (saying he shot her) get so close enough to shoot her in the chest? I'm trying to envision how that could happen, and my mind draws blank.

EDIT: Also wanted to add that, I think the segment said this happened pretty late at night. If someone's asleep, and they hear a shotgun go off, if they're not expecting to hear a shotgun, it could've easily been mistaken for something else

Yeah, I gotta say I'm really not buying the accidental shooting, that seems even more unlikely than suicide imo. Unless this is some hair-triggered shotgun, you don't just accidentally happen to pull a trigger, and just happen to also be stupid enough to pull the trigger of a presumably loaded weapon that's pointed at someone you care about. I mean think about it, even if there was some struggle to pry the weapon away from someone, it takes an almost deliberate effort to wrap a finger around the trigger, I mean the trigger guard's there for a reason! And I really have to imagine a gun that big would require a considerable amount of pressure to be applied to the trigger for it to go off. Not to mention there's plenty of places on a gun that big to grab, in lieu of somehow foregoing the trigger guard and pulling pretty hard.

I can't remember the episode off the top of my head, but was there proof that Ms. Mossor was the owner or was the one in possession of the weapon?

behind[/I] the parked car. But seeing that she was found behind the parked car, that pretty much dispels that.

One thing I do remember is the gun being horizontally parallel with the trunk/hood. You say it says she's behind the vehicle, okay, so if the gun's in this position, and she's behind the vehicle, how does she end up from being in front of the muzzle, all the way to in front of the trunk, let alone the shotgun also being in what appears to be a perfect 180 degree angle?

EDIT: Also wanted to add that, I think the segment said this happened pretty late at night. If someone's asleep, and they hear a shotgun go off, if they're not expecting to hear a shotgun, it could've easily been mistaken for something else

This happened before 8 p.m., so it was early in the evening. I doubt many if any people in the neighborhood were asleep at that point.

Yeah, I gotta say I'm really not buying the accidental shooting, that seems even more unlikely than suicide imo. Unless this is some hair-triggered shotgun, you don't just accidentally happen to pull a trigger, and just happen to also be stupid enough to pull the trigger of a presumably loaded weapon that's pointed at someone you care about. I mean think about it, even if there was some struggle to pry the weapon away from someone, it takes an almost deliberate effort to wrap a finger around the trigger, I mean the trigger guard's there for a reason! And I really have to imagine a gun that big would require a considerable amount of pressure to be applied to the trigger for it to go off. Not to mention there's plenty of places on a gun that big to grab, in lieu of somehow foregoing the trigger guard and pulling pretty hard.

Guns discharge accidentally sometimes. There have even been cases where they have went off when nobody's hand was even on the weapon. UM has aired at least one such case.

I can't remember the episode off the top of my head, but was there proof that Ms. Mossor was the owner or was the one in possession of the weapon?

Segment didn't specify.

I mentioned this in another post, but one circumstance in which a negligent discharge with a shotgun often happens is when someone is engaging the trigger while loading a shell into the chamber. That sounds like a pretty no-brainer thing to avoid doing, but people sometimes do it. Of course, Rae Ann couldn't have killed herself this way, but it might explain what happened on the other end.

I posted this some pages back, and I still think it's a good explanation for a negligent discharge. And again, we know absolutely nothing about the shotgun.

The reason that firearms expert banged the weapon on the ground is because shotguns--especially older shotguns--do not usually have drop safety mechanisms as pistols do:

http://monderno.com/training/accidental-discharge-question/

Like the author, I too take issue with that oft-reported line "the gun accidentally went off". There is someone or something on the operative end of the firearm to cause it to discharge. Unless that loaded firearm is in the middle of a raging inferno, it will not discharge on its own (and even then, that's "cooking off" rounds, when isn't even really the same thing as mechanically discharging the weapon). They don't work like that.

ETA: Highlighting this portion of the article--

Also, most common sporting shotguns like the Remington and Mossberg pump action shotguns are not drop safe. They have no internal firing pin block, but only a simple trigger block safety. This can result in an inertia discharge of the gun if dropped or struck directly on the buttstock with a large enough force. One of the most common hunting accidents is a shotgun being dropped butt first from a tree stand and discharging as it hits the ground, thus wounding the hunter above.

In other words, the butt test appears to be an actual "thing".

Okay, let's bring some numbers into this. Now these numbers are from 5 years ago, and barring some large statistical anomaly, I believe these numbers and percentages are a good rough, accurate reflection of year-to-year accidental shootings.
http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNSTAT.html

There were 31,513 deaths reportedly caused by a firearm. 600 of those were accidental. If we do the math, that comes out to a less than 2% probability that Rae Ann was killed from an accidental discharge. Keep in mind the volume we have here, so even if you somehow believe that the year Rae Ann was killed (1987? can't remember) just so happened to be a high statiscal deviance from the norm, it's not going to be a huge difference percentage-wise, I'd say 5% at the very highest, and that's being generous.

So we have a 2-5% chance that Rae Ann died from an accidental discharge. To put this in perspective, this is about the equivalent of the Knicks winning the championship next year, an NCAA senior being drafted to the NFL, or the same chance of randomly meeting someone that has B- blood type. The gun didn't accidentally discharge from being dropped (it wouldn't be on the trunk), nor would Ms. Mossor have been holding that huge fn gun with the muzzle pointed at her chest when it accidentally went off (who holds a gun like that?). So the only way the gun would've "accidentally" went off, is for a 2nd party to have somehow forgone the trigger guard, and somehow also pulled the trigger with almost deliberate force, "accidentally". If anyone truly believes that this was an accidental shooting, I have some beachfront property in Montana I'd like to show you

The gun didn't accidentally discharge from being dropped (it wouldn't be on the trunk), nor would Ms. Mossor have been holding that huge fn gun with the muzzle pointed at her chest when it accidentally went off (who holds a gun like that?).

Totally agree with you.

So the only way the gun would've "accidentally" went off, is for a 2nd party to have somehow forgone the trigger guard, and somehow also pulled the trigger with almost deliberate force, "accidentally". If anyone truly believes that this was an accidental shooting, I have some beachfront property in Montana I'd like to show you

This is the precise conclusion I've come to.

I had this long, detailed post outlined w/links that was to deliver a larger sample size, however I was logged off due to inactivity. Pretty much, I had the years from 2005-2011, and even 1991, just five years removed from the crime, and the highest probable percentage of being accidentally killed by a firearm, was 5%. The statistical deviance between 2005-2011 was well under 1%, and the 5% probability I came up with for 1991, I used the number of accidental shoothings reported from 2010 (31513). And gun control safety only has increased yearly in the 21st Century. Keep in mind accidental firearm-related fatalities has decreased by 58% in this twenty-year gap, so it's definitely safe to assume the number of accidental shootings in 1991 was much higher than 31,513.

So with ever-yearly increasing gun control safety and consciousness since the boom of the internet, this case preceding this technological era, and there being such an insignificant difference in the 5-year span listed above, I don't see the extremely generous 5% accidental death rate in 1991 being all too different from 1986

Keep in mind, as of 2013, there's a half-percent chance (0.5) of being accidentally killed by a gun

EDIT: Just realized I could extrapolate the data here. If we were to multiply the 58% decrease in accidental fatal shootings in 2010(31,513) by .58, and divide 1441 by this, this comes out to almost 3%. So a little less than 3% chance of being killed accidentally by a firearm in 1991, and probaly no higher than 5% in 1986

Okay, let's bring some numbers into this. Now these numbers are from 5 years ago, and barring some large statistical anomaly, I believe these numbers and percentages are a good rough, accurate reflection of year-to-year accidental shootings.
http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNSTAT.html

There were 31,513 deaths reportedly caused by a firearm. 600 of those were accidental. If we do the math, that comes out to a less than 2% probability that Rae Ann was killed from an accidental discharge. Keep in mind the volume we have here, so even if you somehow believe that the year Rae Ann was killed (1987? can't remember) just so happened to be a high statiscal deviance from the norm, it's not going to be a huge difference percentage-wise, I'd say 5% at the very highest, and that's being generous.

So we have a 2-5% chance that Rae Ann died from an accidental discharge. To put this in perspective, this is about the equivalent of the Knicks winning the championship next year, an NCAA senior being drafted to the NFL, or the same chance of randomly meeting someone that has B- blood type. The gun didn't accidentally discharge from being dropped (it wouldn't be on the trunk), nor would Ms. Mossor have been holding that huge fn gun with the muzzle pointed at her chest when it accidentally went off (who holds a gun like that?). So the only way the gun would've "accidentally" went off, is for a 2nd party to have somehow forgone the trigger guard, and somehow also pulled the trigger with almost deliberate force, "accidentally". If anyone truly believes that this was an accidental shooting, I have some beachfront property in Montana I'd like to show you

This is similar to the "test" the "expert" performed on the segment by banging the gun on the ground. A gun can be dropped and not discharge, say 19 times, but might go off on the 20th. Perhaps this was that time?

It's impossible to say with 100% certainty the gun wouldn't have gone off at that time. Plus we don't know the way she was handling it, how it hit the car, etc.

^^ If the weapon somehow accidentally discharged on her with her being the primary person to handle it, how would it have ended up flush on the trunk/hood?

This case is just odd. The measurements of the arms vs the length of the gun and things of the nature do not have to make sense. If she only has access to a shotgun and she is dead set on killing herself, then she will find a way to get that gun to fire and kill herself. It doesn't have to make sense.

I think she probably had a discussion with her boyfriend and he indicated he was moving on or maybe had interest in someone else and she just broke down. Sadly, this happens a lot.

This case is just odd. The measurements of the arms vs the length of the gun and things of the nature do not have to make sense. If she only has access to a shotgun and she is dead set on killing herself, then she will find a way to get that gun to fire and kill herself. It doesn't have to make sense.

Good point.

And IIRC, did they even know the exact measurements of Rae Ann's arms for comparison? Or were they just guessing based off of how tall she was?

I don't put much stock into these "measurements." You can fudge the data any which way you want. For instance, if I stand straight and put my arms out in front of my body, I will get a measurement. However, if I bend forward slightly, I can increase this measurement significantly and reach something I wouldn't have reached otherwise. There is a lot of "wiggle room" with the human body that cannot be easily accounted for by a tape measure.

At some point you just have to look at the most parsimonious explanation. If the boyfriend did it, why would he do it on a public street in front of witnesses? Why would he do it in front of his OWN HOUSE? Not to mention, the boyfriend's parents were inside the house. It seems like a terrible place to commit a murder. You could say "well it was a crime of passion -- he acted impulsively and didn't care who was watching." OK, if that's the case, how did he manage to stage such a perfect suicide? You can't have it both ways. The sad truth is that people do commit suicides with long-guns; it is not unheard of as some people try to claim.

I see no real motive here for the boyfriend to have done this. Remember, Mossor came to his house in an effort to try and reconcile their relationship. In other words, she was acting on emotion and was probably distraught the entire time she was there. At some point we have to ask what the heck was Mossor doing with the shotgun in the first place? (This was never addressed in the segment). It seems to me she brought it with her to try and emotionally bully the boyfriend into capitulation. Remember, various friends had said she had been threatening suicide for a while before this incident. This type of emotionally "shaming" a partner never works and is the most counter-productive thing one can do.

It's a terrible situation and I feel bad for all involved. Sometimes adolescent "heart-break" is rough and break-ups can sometimes make the teen feel their world is ending. I am sure some of us have been there and remember those bad old days of our first boyfriend or girlfriend. However, most of us look back and think to ourselves how we're better off today. Sadly Mossor didn't get that chance.

I see no real motive here for the boyfriend to have done this. Remember, Mossor came to his house in an effort to try and reconcile their relationship. In other words, she was acting on emotion and was probably distraught the entire time she was there. At some point we have to ask what the heck was Mossor doing with the shotgun in the first place? (This was never addressed in the segment). It seems to me she brought it with her to try and emotionally bully the boyfriend into capitulation. Remember, various friends had said she had been threatening suicide for a while before this incident. This type of emotionally "shaming" a partner never works and is the most counter-productive thing one can do.

It's a terrible situation and I feel bad for all involved. Sometimes adolescent "heart-break" is rough and break-ups can sometimes make the teen feel their world is ending. I am sure some of us have been there and remember those bad old days of our first boyfriend or girlfriend. However, most of us look back and think to ourselves how we're better off today. Sadly Mossor didn't get that chance.

You know, when I was younger and first saw this episode, I thought foul play was involved.

As I've gotten older, I've come to change that opinion. Part of that is learning that I was a very abnormal teenager. I didn't get mixed up in a lot of that "teenage drama," so to speak. :) I didn't realize that for some, that first breakup is brutal. For others, EVERY breakup is this brutal. I see this every single day of my career now: Relationships ending and one of the parties threatens self-harm as a way of keeping the other person there. In this case, the weapon used was a rifle. In other cases, I've seen people threaten to kill themselves via text while they are driving down the road. In one extreme case, the female made a suicide attempt and drove her car into oncoming traffic. She didn't kill herself, but ended up killing a pregnant woman in one of the other vehicles. All over a break-up. :mad: :mad:

I never felt that Rae Ann killed herself, even though witnesses allegedly heard her threatening to end her life. Due to the fact the police found her car across the street, driver's door open and running, that Rae Ann was in the process of leaving, when her boyfriend pulled her out and shot her in the chest with the shotgun. Did they ever fingerprint the shotgun? Rae Ann could not have shot herself with the shotgun, it was too long and her arms could not reach the trigger, and even if she would have been able to pull the trigger with one of her feet, the wound would have been to her head and not her chest.

It's pitiful that the authorities were so quick to rule her death a suicide and stonewalling her parents' efforts to clear her name and go after her killer. Rae Ann's mother Rella Ann died last year, but her father is still alive, and she has 2 brothers not mentioned in the episode. I hope that 30 years later, that they will push the investigators into reopening Rae Ann's case and clearing this matter once and for all.

You know, when I was younger and first saw this episode, I thought foul play was involved.

As I've gotten older, I've come to change that opinion. Part of that is learning that I was a very abnormal teenager. I didn't get mixed up in a lot of that "teenage drama," so to speak. :) I didn't realize that for some, that first breakup is brutal. For others, EVERY breakup is this brutal. I see this every single day of my career now: Relationships ending and one of the parties threatens self-harm as a way of keeping the other person there. In this case, the weapon used was a rifle. In other cases, I've seen people threaten to kill themselves via text while they are driving down the road. In one extreme case, the female made a suicide attempt and drove her car into oncoming traffic. She didn't kill herself, but ended up killing a pregnant woman in one of the other vehicles. All over a break-up. :mad: :mad:

It is fascinating how your view on UM cases changes as you age. For me, it is Tim McClure. As a kid, I went with guilty. As an adult with more life experience and cynicism under my belt, I say innocent.

It is fascinating how your view on UM cases changes as you age. For me, it is Tim McClure. As a kid, I went with guilty. As an adult with more life experience and cynicism under my belt, I say innocent.

Totally. I've flip-flopped on a lot of cases this way. I still need to rewatch Tim McClure. That's a hot one on this board! :)

So I was thinking about this case today, and went ahead and reread a lot from this thread. This is definitely one of the weirdest cases ever profiled, and the whole "undetermined" cause of death fits this to a T. I'll start off by saying that I don't think Rae Ann was deliberately murdered. I think the only two options at play are suicide, and an accidental (manslaughter?) shooting in the struggle over the gun. Obviously the height of Rae Ann and the odd positioning she would have put herself in to shoot herself puts a dent in the suicide theory. But when looking at the accidental theory, the boyfriend is the obvious suspect. According to the UM segment, the boyfriend says they had an argument and she said her infamous "what do I have to do" line before she "ran out the door". So the argument occurred inside a house (presumably the boyfriends). Witnesses heard this argument. The police were already on their way to the house because someone reported a disturbance there. So where exactly would there have been time for the boyfriend to go out, struggle with Rae Ann, shoot her, go back inside and possibly clean up, and then convince the other 2 witnesses to lie in their stories to not implicate him. Because if she ran outside, and the boyfriend went out after her, you would have 2 witnesses who would place the boyfriend outside when the gunshot went off. All 3 of their stories were similar. Neither one of the other 2 witnesses say the boyfriend went outside after Rae Ann, and they all said that the gunshot rang out almost immediately after she went outside. And no one says they remember the boyfriend coming back inside the house either.

Another point in the segment that's somewhat confusing is that the parents believe that the state of Rae Ann's car indicated foul play. Her car was parked across the street from the boyfriend's car with the door open, key in the ignition, and music blaring. I'd say this evidence supports suicide more than foul play, IMO. After their argument, she bolts outside, turns her car on and the radio loud (trying to get his attention, or to get him outside), and then waits. He doesn't come out, so she grabs the gun and positions it on the boyfriend's car (this is where the shotgun was found), and then takes her own life. Maybe she was banging the gun on the boyfriend's car in another attempt to get his attention before the gun accidentally discharged. That's certainly still a possibility, IMO. I just don't see how the boyfriend could have been involved.

ETA: I just watched this segment after typing this up, and I have never seen the portion of Rae Ann's mother going before a grand jury to get the case reinvestigated. The grand jury ultimately declined. According to UM, the grand jury could only recommend that the cause of death be changed to homicide "if there clearly was a suspect", and "since in this case there was no suspect, the grand jury declined Ann's motion". 2 things: I had no idea that this part ever existed or why it was edited out of later broadcasts, and also it seems like even Rae Ann's parents weren't really pushing the whole boyfriend did it angle, but even if they were, there must have been scant evidence that implicated him.

Accidental death or suicide seems the most likely. I don't see anything that points to murder based on the unsolved mysteries segment.

ETA: I just watched this segment after typing this up, and I have never seen the portion of Rae Ann's mother going before a grand jury to get the case reinvestigated. The grand jury ultimately declined. According to UM, the grand jury could only recommend that the cause of death be changed to homicide "if there clearly was a suspect", and "since in this case there was no suspect, the grand jury declined Ann's motion". 2 things: I had no idea that this part ever existed or why it was edited out of later broadcasts, and also it seems like even Rae Ann's parents weren't really pushing the whole boyfriend did it angle, but even if they were, there must have been scant evidence that implicated him.

I never knew what to make of the "no suspect" business myself. The only thing I can figure is that the parents suspected the boyfriend was responsible, but lacked the evidence to make a formal or public accusation, perhaps out of fear of slander or libel.

That could also partially explain why the segment didn't focus on the mechanics of the crime itself or present the alternate theory - because the parents suspected the boyfriend, but couldn't say it on UM. Notice how nearly all other suicide vs. murder cases have some alternate scenario. Here we don't get one. It is actually one of the more clinical segments UM has done.

For what it's worth, there was a "one post wonder" type who stopped in years ago and said he was somehow related to the family and that the parents DID suspect the boyfriend, but, as I said, lacked the evidence to say it.

It is fascinating how your view on UM cases changes as you age.

I totally agree, it is fascinating, but I also think its logical. Many of us started watching UM when we were adolescents, so our critical thinking skills weren't as developed as they are now. Add to that an additional 20-30 years of life experience and you're bound to have a much different view of at least some of the controversial cases featured on UM.

I admit that as a kid I "bought" most of the alternate points that UM suggested, this being one of the prime examples. Now I think that it's most likely a case of suicide, accidental shooting, or accidental suicide. I don't believe the boyfriend would have been able to cover up the crime in the narrow window of time he had if he had killed her in a passionate argument.

One bit of information that I would REALLY like to know is what the condition of the boyfriend's trunk was. If there are no scratches, its much more likely that the gun was placed there. It seems to me that there would have to be scratches or dents on the trunk for the shotgun to have fallen and landed there.

However, I recently thought of another possible scenario based on how severely the trunk was damaged- what if she had been using the shotgun to damage the boyfriend's car? It seems like a ridiculously stupid thing to do with a loaded shotgun, but it was mentioned at least once that she had a hot temper to begin with, plus it is clear that she was agitated from the fight. One of the doctors stated that she had powder burns on one hand, so she could have been holding onto the barrel and denting his trunk in with the butt of the gun. I know the firearms expert performed the butt test, but I wonder if he tested to see if the gun would fire if it was hit in more of a club-like manner. I realize its a bit of an outlandish theory, but that's why I said I'd like to see the condition of the trunk.

However, I recently thought of another possible scenario based on how severely the trunk was damaged- what if she had been using the shotgun to damage the boyfriend's car? It seems like a ridiculously stupid thing to do with a loaded shotgun, but it was mentioned at least once that she had a hot temper to begin with, plus it is clear that she was agitated from the fight. One of the doctors stated that she had powder burns on one hand, so she could have been holding onto the barrel and denting his trunk in with the butt of the gun. I know the firearms expert performed the butt test, but I wonder if he tested to see if the gun would fire if it was hit in more of a club-like manner. I realize its a bit of an outlandish theory, but that's why I said I'd like to see the condition of the trunk.

I'm glad you brought this up because I was thinking the same exact thing when watching the segment. Now if there was in fact some sort of damage to the trunk or the boyfriend's car, I suppose it's possible that UM left it out because they didn't want to lead viewers to the conclusion that it was most likely an accident. Or it's possible that it was left out to not taint the character of Rae Ann, to try to not portray her as a hot head.

I found a Roanoke city government website with a list of articles written for "Roanoke Magazine", and one of the titles of an article is "Suicide or Not? The Death of Rae Ann Mossor" and it was on the February 1990 edition. Unfortunately, the list is just the titles of articles and dates and page numbers they appear on. I can't find anything else about this magazine, or the Rae Ann article, online unfortunately. The only newspaper article I've read was very brief on information. I think a lengthy magazine article would be the best bet at determining the condition of the boyfriend's car as well as other details that UM might have left out.

This case is just odd. The measurements of the arms vs the length of the gun and things of the nature do not have to make sense. If she only has access to a shotgun and she is dead set on killing herself, then she will find a way to get that gun to fire and kill herself. It doesn't have to make sense.

I think she probably had a discussion with her boyfriend and he indicated he was moving on or maybe had interest in someone else and she just broke down. Sadly, this happens a lot.
Yeah she'll just...find a way to make her arms longer. It doesn't have to make sense. :lol:

Whether or not Mossor made the statement alleged by her boyfriend, the physical evidence doesn't support a self inflicted injury: the length of the shotgun and her physical inability to have positioned it to inflict the resulting wound, the powder burns on her left hand. It's also extremely difficult to imagine the shotgun ending up lying on top of the trunk unless it had been placed there. I agree with the three experts: another party was holding the weapon at the time that it discharged, which calls all three witness statements into serious question.

At the very least, it means that the boyfriend and possibly the two witnesses omitted crucial information about their actions that evening. If there was struggle, or one of them witnessed Mossor shooting herself, or heard the shot as they later claimed, why were they in the house when the police arrived? The boyfriend was involved in an altercation with his ex right outside his house, he hears a shot, they all stay in the house and a passerby ends up calling the police to report the shooting: that's questionable in itself. Even if one chooses to believe that there was a negligent discharge as a result of the altercation, the person who was involved in the negligent discharge then lied to the police about their involvement, which is a cover up.

watched this for the first time. Suicide does seem like the likely answer but the placement of the gun does bother me

watched this for the first time. Suicide does seem like the likely answer but the placement of the gun does bother me

Yep. I absolutely would have thought suicide but the facts don't support that she shot herself with that gun. I think mentally she was more than capable of suicide but the facts are difficult to overcome.

She either needed a stick or something else to push the trigger but she couldn't have done it herself. I've always wondered if she threatened to kill herself and then her boyfriend came outside and they got in an argument over the gun. If her boyfriend took it away and it accidentally went off, that would explain the injury pattern and burn marks.

However, I recently thought of another possible scenario based on how severely the trunk was damaged- what if she had been using the shotgun to damage the boyfriend's car? It seems like a ridiculously stupid thing to do with a loaded shotgun, but it was mentioned at least once that she had a hot temper to begin with, plus it is clear that she was agitated from the fight. One of the doctors stated that she had powder burns on one hand, so she could have been holding onto the barrel and denting his trunk in with the butt of the gun. I know the firearms expert performed the butt test, but I wonder if he tested to see if the gun would fire if it was hit in more of a club-like manner. I realize its a bit of an outlandish theory, but that's why I said I'd like to see the condition of the trunk.

Literally thought the same thing when I re-watched this one over the weekend. Soilentgreen makes a compelling argument about the boyfriend and the two other witnesses not coming outside, but I'll have to re-watch again before I can offer much of an opinion on that other than to say, I don't know if I would be willing to leave my house if I heard gunshots outside. Although, I would call the police rather than leaving that to someone else. But, I do agree that her getting the gun out and using it like a club explains both how she could have shot herself without having long enough arms to pull the trigger and how she got the powder burns on her arm. I, too, would be interested to know whether the firearms expert tested anything other than hitting the butt of the gun. The segment states that he tested to see if it could have discharged "by dropping it on the ground or hitting it against the car in anger" which indicates to me that he did possibly test it being used as a club in addition to the butt test.

One question I've always had about this one. Who owned the shotgun? Was it Rae Ann's or was it her boyfriend's? The only refer to it as "the shotgun" in the segment and never make clear whose it was. That would make a big difference. If the gun was Rae Ann's or was in her trunk, that makes the accident/suicide theory more likely than if it belonged to her boyfriend.

One question I've always had about this one. Who owned the shotgun? Was it Rae Ann's or was it her boyfriend's? The only refer to it as "the shotgun" in the segment and never make clear whose it was. That would make a big difference. If the gun was Rae Ann's or was in her trunk, that makes the accident/suicide theory more likely than if it belonged to her boyfriend.

I have ALWAYS wondered this and it's bothered me for years.

There is an idea here on the board that if UM didn't specifically mention ownership of a firearm in a murder-or-suicide segment, it probably belonged to the decedent or his/her household. Where this originated I don't know (Tony Lombardi?), but it seems reasonable given the show's demonstrated tendency to play up ambiguity for the sake of viewer intrigue.

I'm still not willing to hang my hat on suicide in Rae Ann Mossor's case, but I do think that shotgun probably belonged to her or someone in her family--in the absence of any further information.

After recently seeing the segment of Don Hamilton for the first time, I can definitely see an accidental discharge as a possibility.

After recently seeing the segment of Don Hamilton for the first time, I can definitely see an accidental discharge as a possibility.

Yeah. Several shotguns aren't drop safe. The 'butt test' makes sense as it's probably the most efficient way to attempt to get the firing pin to contact the primer, but I reason slamming the butt on the ground isn't the only way that can happen.

Rewatched this segment again tonight.

I don't know how tall R.J. Breglio was or is, but that's a damn long shotgun. Not making a point either way, but the image just struck me after all these years. I mean, I rewound the thing probably three or four times just to look at it. Why such a long barrel? I'd wondered off and on for years but had never really bothered to investigate.

So I did some research into it. Before smokeless powder, a longer barrel assisted with velocity. Even after black powder fell out of common use, manufacturers continued to produce such shotgun barrels because the long length makes it advantageous for hunting birds like waterfowl, which are often hunted while in flight. The long barrel makes it easier to "swing" on them while pass-shooting.

I surmise the weapon involved in Rae Ann's death almost certainly belonged to her father. We don't know much about Ron Mossor, but I can much more readily envision someone like him using a 12-gauge shotgun with a 36'' barrel to hunt ducks and geese than I can most 22 year-old women.

However, such a weapon would be arguably awkward to manipulate while facing the firing end--not only due to the length, but the probable accompanying weight and its balance. I've never clearly seen any way in which Rae Ann could have deployed the trigger intentionally in that position, and the likelihood seems even less great considering her reported extreme emotional state at the time. That is, she would not have been mentally and physically relaxed enough to be able to manipulate all the elements of the firearm and the environment around her to the end of shooting herself intentionally in the chest.

Untrained shooters are often terribly notorious for putting their fingers in the trigger well of firearms while not intending to fire. I wonder if someone coaxed a hysterical Rae Ann into handing them the weapon in an attempt to replace or move the weapon aside out of reach. Unsafely handling the weapon, he or she may have pulled the trigger back.

I'll acknowledge that Rae Ann may very well have had "a temper" that by all accounts seemed to surface on the night she was killed, but no impromptu suicide-by-shotgun scenario has ever made sense to me. On the other hand, there's certainly not a clear explanation for any other scenario, either. I guess that's why I keep coming back to this one. Every time I think I've thought of something new, I go right back to Square One.

Rewatched this segment again tonight.

I don't know how tall R.J. Breglio was or is, but that's a damn long shotgun. Not making a point either way, but the image just struck me after all these years. I mean, I rewound the thing probably three or four times just to look at it. Why such a long barrel? I'd wondered off and on for years but had never really bothered to investigate.

So I did some research into it. Before smokeless powder, a longer barrel assisted with velocity. Even after black powder fell out of common use, manufacturers continued to produce such shotgun barrels because the long length makes it advantageous for hunting birds like waterfowl, which are often hunted while in flight. The long barrel makes it easier to "swing" on them while pass-shooting.

I surmise the weapon involved in Rae Ann's death almost certainly belonged to her father. We don't know much about Ron Mossor, but I can much more readily envision someone like him using a 12-gauge shotgun with a 36'' barrel to hunt ducks and geese than I can most 22 year-old women.

However, such a weapon would be arguably awkward to manipulate while facing the firing end--not only due to the length, but the probable accompanying weight and its balance. I've never clearly seen any way in which Rae Ann could have deployed the trigger intentionally in that position, and the likelihood seems even less great considering her reported extreme emotional state at the time. That is, she would not have been mentally and physically relaxed enough to be able to manipulate all the elements of the firearm and the environment around her to the end of shooting herself intentionally in the chest.

Untrained shooters are often terribly notorious for putting their fingers in the trigger well of firearms while not intending to fire. I wonder if someone coaxed a hysterical Rae Ann into handing them the weapon in an attempt to replace or move the weapon aside out of reach. Unsafely handling the weapon, he or she may have pulled the trigger back.

I'll acknowledge that Rae Ann may very well have had "a temper" that by all accounts seemed to surface on the night she was killed, but no impromptu suicide-by-shotgun scenario has ever made sense to me. On the other hand, there's certainly not a clear explanation for any other scenario, either. I guess that's why I keep coming back to this one. Every time I think I've thought of something new, I go right back to Square One.

That's some interesting info on the history of shotgun barrels, and I come to the same conclusion you do. I think that the shotgun probably belonged to Rae Ann's father. While her boyfriend may well have been a hunter too, I return to the fact that UM and Rae Ann's family never mentioned in the segment the owner of the shotgun. If the shotgun had belonged to Rae Ann's boyfriend it would have been a huge piece of evidence to support their theory, and it would have given the grand jury the suspect they needed to change the cause of death and re-open the investigation.

I have always believed that this case is not a suicide. Rae Ann's parents and Dr. DiMaio convincingly proved that Rae Ann could not have intentionally shot herself based on the length of the gun and the location of the would on her chest. I believe that this is case of accidental death. I don't know if it was a case where someone else was involved trying to either take or wrestle the gun away from her or if she simply discharged the weapon while hitting something with the butt of it.

One of the police officers in the Norman Ladner case said that it's hard for families to accept a ruling of suicide and that if Norman's case were changed to an accidental death he thought that they'd stop fighting it. I don't know if that's true of the Ladners because they had a very strong theory about a drug murder. But, I do believe that if Rae Ann's death had been correctly labeled an accident from the beginning that the family might have been more likely to accept it.

That's some interesting info on the history of shotgun barrels, and I come to the same conclusion you do. I think that the shotgun probably belonged to Rae Ann's father. While her boyfriend may well have been a hunter too, I return to the fact that UM and Rae Ann's family never mentioned in the segment the owner of the shotgun. If the shotgun had belonged to Rae Ann's boyfriend it would have been a huge piece of evidence to support their theory, and it would have given the grand jury the suspect they needed to change the cause of death and re-open the investigation.

I have always believed that this case is not a suicide. Rae Ann's parents and Dr. DiMaio convincingly proved that Rae Ann could not have intentionally shot herself based on the length of the gun and the location of the would on her chest. I believe that this is case of accidental death. I don't know if it was a case where someone else was involved trying to either take or wrestle the gun away from her or if she simply discharged the weapon while hitting something with the butt of it.

One of the police officers in the Norman Ladner case said that it's hard for families to accept a ruling of suicide and that if Norman's case were changed to an accidental death he thought that they'd stop fighting it. I don't know if that's true of the Ladners because they had a very strong theory about a drug murder. But, I do believe that if Rae Ann's death had been correctly labeled an accident from the beginning that the family might have been more likely to accept it.

I definitely agree the family would have been amenable to accepting the cause of death as undetermined or even accidental from the outset. I think the onus rests largely with law enforcement here, although the medical examiner should have served as a backstop for the trajectory of the (hasty) conclusion made by the police.

I've also always wanted to know whether Rae Ann was left- or right-handed. In an instance in which she was attempting to push the barrel end of a firearm away from her, I reason it's more likely (being a life-threatening situation in which most humans default to reflex) she would use her dominant hand to do so. If she were somehow able to deploy the trigger, she would also likely use her dominant hand to do this while holding the barrel in her non-dominant hand. The powder burns were found on her left wrist. Most people tend to be right-handed, on average.

I still don't think she intentionally shot herself, but I've always found the powder burn location intriguing.

Just saw this for the first time, forgive me if I repeat what someone have already said (I didn't read all of the pages).

I think there was a struggle with her ex-boyfriend, and someone accidentally pressed the trigger. I don't think it was a suicide. These are my theories:

1.) If she went there to get him back, and he didn't want her back, and she was irate, then most people will think that she just grabbed a gun and shot herself right? But, I wonder if he tried to fend her off with the gun (not really going to shoot her, but trying to scare her away from making a scene at night), and she grabbed the gun and it was a struggle, and the trigger was accidentally pushed. Or, she was taunting him with a "shoot me, just shoot me" and grabbed the gun while he was holding it, and it accidentally discharged.

2.) I find it strange that the police questioned the boyfriend, and asked if he came outside when he heard any shots and he said no, he didn't come outside. Your ex-girlfriend just left, super angry and you hear a gun go off seconds later and you don't go outside to check? Extremely suspicious.

3.) The gun did belong to her, and she threatened herself after a heated argument. He went outside to get the gun from her, because she was making a scene and when he tried to get the gun away from her, he accidentally pulled the trigger.

If it's anyones gun, it's someone from the boyfriend's house, or hers. Why would a random strange roll up, shoot her, and then leave the gun? I wouldn't be surprised if it was the father of the boyfriends gun.

EDIT: In the segment, it was said that she was found dead next to her ex's car, while her car across the street had the keys in the ignition, and the radio on like she was about to leave. I wonder after leaving the ex's house, she stormed towards his car to vandalize it, and the boyfriend followed her with the shotgun to keep her away from the car. He held the gun to her to get her to go away, but obviously irate she grabbed the gun and it went off on accident. The boyfriend then places the gun on the trunk, and then runs in the house.

A loud shot went off after your angry ex left, and you don't go outside to see what happened? Yeah right, he's partially responsible.

Whoa. I just thought about something concerning her body, and the gun being found next to his car.

Her keys were in the ignition, and the radio was on like she was just about to drive off. What if she was about to drive off, and her ex-boyfriend came outside with the gun? Perhaps she screamed the infamous "Do I have to kill myself line" (this is what the three neighbors heard) and got in her car about to drive off, and that made her boyfriend come out the house with the gun?

Obviously she's being super loud at night disturbing the neighbors and putting heat on him. So what if he walked near his car with the gun to scare her into leaving, and she got out of the car (door left open, keys in the ignition) to confront him? She grabbed the end of the gun, an altercation broke out, and he accidentally pulls the trigger from her trying to take the gun?

I never really could wrap my head around this case and the questions the segment brought up. The past few pages though, with people suggesting the shotgun accidentally went off really resonated (crazy how it took me this long to put things together).

Not knowing enough about her ex-boyfriend, I'll just go ahead and say she had the shotgun. Either way though, there was an argument and a struggle, during which the shotgun goes off. The ex, in a state of shock, put the gun on the trunk, then went and barricaded himself inside his place until the police showed up.

Was the gun ever dusted for prints though? (haven't read through this entire thread) Yeah, we're told in the segment that powder burns were found on Rae Ann. If you're going to be so sloppy as to not perform an autopsy, possible physical evidence (prints) from the weapon in question would help to bolster whatever cause of death you wanted to go with.

I've never thought this was murder.

For starters, the boyfriend was finished with Rae Ann. He wanted nothing to do with her. If he wanted to kill her, he would have sought her out. In reality, it was the other way around.

Secondly, murdering her in the middle of a residential street would be incredibly dumb. There were houses all around there. There would be any number of people that could have potentially seen him shoot her, or get to the window quick enough to watch him run away if he did. Heck, considering all the noise Rae Ann was making (shouting, loud stereo) there could have been people watching them before the shot went off, which the boyfriend almost certainly would have had to take into consideration.

The Mossors struck me as unpleasant people. All of them. I can understand why the boyfriend wanted out of that situation. I've always gotten an image of Rae Ann being hysterical and throwing or pounding the gun on the hood of the car and it going off accidentally.

I've never thought this was murder.

For starters, the boyfriend was finished with Rae Ann. He wanted nothing to do with her. If he wanted to kill her, he would have sought her out. In reality, it was the other way around.

Secondly, murdering her in the middle of a residential street would be incredibly dumb. There were houses all around there. There would be any number of people that could have potentially seen him shoot her, or get to the window quick enough to watch him run away if he did. Heck, considering all the noise Rae Ann was making (shouting, loud stereo) there could have been people watching them before the shot went off, which the boyfriend almost certainly would have had to take into consideration.

The Mossors struck me as unpleasant people. All of them. I can understand why the boyfriend wanted out of that situation. I've always gotten an image of Rae Ann being hysterical and throwing or pounding the gun on the hood of the car and it going off accidentally.


I think if the cops actually did their jobs right and perhaps put the screws to her boyfriend, the truth would've come out quick. At the most he might've gotten hit with a Manslaughter beef.

I think if the cops actually did their jobs right and perhaps put the screws to her boyfriend, the truth would've come out quick. At the most he might've gotten hit with a Manslaughter beef.

Eh, I'm not getting a murder vibe here.

One of the biggest things for me was the "expert" who banged the gun on the ground a few times and said it wouldn't discharge. It's bunk science. Guns do accidentally discharge at times. To say it would or wouldn't have happened in this instance is impossible. It's a moment in time that will never be recreated.

The segment doesn't explicity state whose gun it was, but one would have to assume it was Rae Ann's as the boyfriend apparently stated he didn't go to check what the gunshot was about if there was some maniac with a shotgun running around, which makes sense.

Even Rae Ann's mother confessed it appeared to be a suicide in one instance, when she told her daughter: "If this isn't what it appears to be..." I found her statement that they wanted their daughter's name to be cleared kind of odd, like they were hugely concerned that people will think she murdered herself and think less of her/the family as a result. It's almost like they were completely unable to accept the possibility of a suicide.

Even Stack said it appeared to be a suicide. It's just difficult for me to see everyone from the grand jury to the doctors screwing up.

One of the biggest things for me was the "expert" who banged the gun on the ground a few times and said it wouldn't discharge. It's bunk science. Guns do accidentally discharge at times.

Source please.

Source please.

True Lies staircase scene.

Source please.

The UM segment where the hunter fell out of a tree and the gun discharged and shot and nearly killed him.

Going further, here is an article that states long guns such as shotguns are at risk for accidental discharge:

https://www.scienceabc.com/eyeopeners/can-dropped-gun-go-off-safety-bullet-accidental-discharge-firearm.html

"That being said, this isn’t true for all guns, particularly “long” guns, like rifles and others used for hunting or precision shooting. These long guns typically don’t have a safety, as their internal mechanism and design is slightly different. These guns do pose a risk of firing when dropped, particularly on the butt of the gun, as that impact can cause the firing pin’s inertia to move it forward, even if the hammer isn’t cocked."

Actually, that ties into to something I was thinking. In order for the death to happen the way it did, according to most interviewed in the segment, Rae Ann would have had to be facing the gun, with the muzzle some distance away. If she banged the butt of the gun on the trunk of the car (maybe attempting to damage it or something), that would explain an accidental discharge, why the gun landed the way it did and why she had powder burns. I think this theory makes the most sense.

Going further, here is an article that states long guns such as shotguns are at risk for accidental discharge:

https://www.scienceabc.com/eyeopeners/can-dropped-gun-go-off-safety-bullet-accidental-discharge-firearm.html

"That being said, this isn’t true for all guns, particularly “long” guns, like rifles and others used for hunting or precision shooting. These long guns typically don’t have a safety, as their internal mechanism and design is slightly different. These guns do pose a risk of firing when dropped, particularly on the butt of the gun, as that impact can cause the firing pin’s inertia to move it forward, even if the hammer isn’t cocked."

Actually, that ties into to something I was thinking. In order for the death to happen the way it did, according to most interviewed in the segment, Rae Ann would have had to be facing the gun, with the muzzle some distance away. If she banged the butt of the gun on the trunk of the car (maybe attempting to damage it or something), that would explain an accidental discharge, why the gun landed the way it did and why she had powder burns. I think this theory makes the most sense.


Except if a firearm is THAT prone to firing without the trigger pulled, drop tests will find it. If it happens once with that firearm, it WILL happen again. It's not like it's going to happen one time, then function exactly as it's supposed to. You said earlier "the expert whacks it on the ground a few times." Yes...from what was shown in a reenactment. You're not going to take it and hit it a couple times and say "Oh, no, this is fine." Especially if you're trying to ensure if a crime occurred. What they show in the reenactment is not necessarily exactly what happened. For all we know his drop testing including grabbing the thing by the barrel and swinging it against a wall like Mickey Mantle on a bender.

The biggest questions for me are:

1) Whose shotgun was it?
2) Who loaded it?
3) Who put a round in the chamber?

I do also wonder if the remaining shells were checked for prints. It's unlikely a print on the fired shell would have survived, but there would absolutely have been prints on the other shells in the magazine tube, even if only on the base, where you press it in with your thumb. And if there were no other shells in the shotgun, only the one that was in the chamber, then that, alone, conjures up some serious questions for me.

Except if a firearm is THAT prone to firing without the trigger pulled, drop tests will find it. If it happens once with that firearm, it WILL happen again. It's not like it's going to happen one time, then function exactly as it's supposed to. You said earlier "the expert whacks it on the ground a few times." Yes...from what was shown in a reenactment. You're not going to take it and hit it a couple times and say "Oh, no, this is fine." Especially if you're trying to ensure if a crime occurred. What they show in the reenactment is not necessarily exactly what happened. For all we know his drop testing including grabbing the thing by the barrel and swinging it against a wall like Mickey Mantle on a bender.

The biggest questions for me are:

1) Whose shotgun was it?
2) Who loaded it?
3) Who put a round in the chamber?

I do also wonder if the remaining shells were checked for prints. It's unlikely a print on the fired shell would have survived, but there would absolutely have been prints on the other shells in the magazine tube, even if only on the base, where you press it in with your thumb. And if there were no other shells in the shotgun, only the one that was in the chamber, then that, alone, conjures up some serious questions for me.

In regards to fingerprints, I would also have to wonder what fingerprints were found on the gun itself. This almost certainly isn't a situation where the perpetrator (if there was one) would have used gloves, because there's no apparent suspect or motive. Any motive would have been a spontaneous one. If only Rae Ann's prints were found on the gun, I think the "mystery" is solved right there. And the perp wouldn't have had time to wipe the prints off the gun -- he/she had to figure people would be racing to their windows to see what happened.

The drop tests don't mean squat to me. As I said, it's a moment in time that can't be recreated. We will never know what position Rae Ann was standing in, exactly where the gun landed, at what speed, at what force, and at what angle. It could be dropped 100 times, not discharging 99 of them, but discharging one of them.

I know some people suspect the boyfriend here, but what was the motive? He was avoiding her. He was done with her.

In regards to fingerprints, I would also have to wonder what fingerprints were found on the gun itself. This almost certainly isn't a situation where the perpetrator (if there was one) would have used gloves, because there's no apparent suspect or motive. Any motive would have been a spontaneous one. If only Rae Ann's prints were found on the gun, I think the "mystery" is solved right there. And the perp wouldn't have had time to wipe the prints off the gun -- he/she had to figure people would be racing to their windows to see what happened.

I agree, entirely.

The drop tests don't mean squat to me. As I said, it's a moment in time that can't be recreated. We will never know what position Rae Ann was standing in, exactly where the gun landed, at what speed, at what force, and at what angle. It could be dropped 100 times, not discharging 99 of them, but discharging one of them.

I disagree, entirely. The simple fact that it happened once means it WILL happen again, if the mechanism is going to, by design or through wear, allow it to happen. That is not an opinion, it's fact. That is exactly why drop tests are done. Firearms are made to not do this. Even older ones were. However, IF an action is likely to discharge unintentionally, it's not a case of "well, it'll happen once then never happen again." With all the minutiae you're adding in (what speed, angle, where she was standing), you almost need to start adding in things like humidity, temperature, and planetary alignment. If it's off by one degree of angle, and it has a faulty mechanism, it will still go off. You should read up on exactly what constitutes drop testing before dismissing it as "not meaning squat."

Going further, here is an article that states long guns such as shotguns are at risk for accidental discharge:

https://www.scienceabc.com/eyeopeners/can-dropped-gun-go-off-safety-bullet-accidental-discharge-firearm.html

"That being said, this isn’t true for all guns, particularly “long” guns, like rifles and others used for hunting or precision shooting. These long guns typically don’t have a safety, as their internal mechanism and design is slightly different. These guns do pose a risk of firing when dropped, particularly on the butt of the gun, as that impact can cause the firing pin’s inertia to move it forward, even if the hammer isn’t cocked."

Actually, that ties into to something I was thinking. In order for the death to happen the way it did, according to most interviewed in the segment, Rae Ann would have had to be facing the gun, with the muzzle some distance away. If she banged the butt of the gun on the trunk of the car (maybe attempting to damage it or something), that would explain an accidental discharge, why the gun landed the way it did and why she had powder burns. I think this theory makes the most sense.

All this is stuff I've posted probably four times in this thread already.

There's a nuanced point I was trying to make: guns do not "go off accidentally". They must be mechanically discharged by some action, whether it's a trigger pull or dropping a long gun without a drop safe it on its stock. At that point, we call it a negligent discharge, as 'accidental' implies some freak mechanical occurrence when what actually occurred was human error--whether it's dropping a shotgun from a tree stand or pulling a trigger carelessly because you don't have the discipline to keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire.

The only thing necessary for the firearm to discharge in the first case is for the weapon to be impacted with enough force to cause the firing pin to contact the primer. Slamming the butt of a long gun forcefully into the ground to see if it will discharge in the absence of a drop safe mechanism actually is the most logical action if you understand the mechanics of firearms. It is the most direct and probable action to cause the firing pin to hit the primer--not lateral force. For this reason, the butt test is a good indicator of whether the shotgun involved in Rae Ann's case was capable of discharging if impacted by an outside force.

I disagree, entirely. The simple fact that it happened once means it WILL happen again, if the mechanism is going to, by design or through wear, allow it to happen. That is not an opinion, it's fact. That is exactly why drop tests are done. Firearms are made to not do this. Even older ones were. However, IF an action is likely to discharge unintentionally, it's not a case of "well, it'll happen once then never happen again." With all the minutiae you're adding in (what speed, angle, where she was standing), you almost need to start adding in things like humidity, temperature, and planetary alignment. If it's off by one degree of angle, and it has a faulty mechanism, it will still go off. You should read up on exactly what constitutes drop testing before dismissing it as "not meaning squat."

^ This. It's not difficult to understand the value of a drop test with a basic understanding of firearms actions in general, and then specifically long gun actions without drop safes.

All this is stuff I've posted probably four times in this thread already.

I don't keep track of every post in this forum.

In any event, I'm not seeing a compelling case for murder here. Boyfriend as suspect gets mentioned a lot, but we know nothing about him, not even his name. There's no apparent motive, no knowledge about what his background or temperament is, and the opportunity itself is shaky. This was at night, when kids were home from school and people were home from work. It's difficult to imagine him shooting her, wiping the prints off the gun, placing it carefully on the trunk and running off to his home without anyone seeing it. We're talking about dozens of potential witnesses here. And a random perpetrator is highly unlikely. The grand jury apparently voted unanimously not to classify it as a murder.

I don't keep track of every post in this forum.

In any event, I'm not seeing a compelling case for murder here. Boyfriend as suspect gets mentioned a lot, but we know nothing about him, not even his name. There's no apparent motive, no knowledge about what his background or temperament is, and the opportunity itself is shaky. This was at night, when kids were home from school and people were home from work. It's difficult to imagine him shooting her, wiping the prints off the gun, placing it carefully on the trunk and running off to his home without anyone seeing it. We're talking about dozens of potential witnesses here. And a random perpetrator is highly unlikely. The grand jury apparently voted unanimously not to classify it as a murder.

The point is that if the shotgun does not fire during drop testing, it means it's remarkably unlikely that it would've discharged through being slammed on a trunk. This means that, in order for it to have discharged, someone had to depress the trigger. Who that someone is is open for debate. Did the police even bother to check the shotgun for prints? I have never heard one way or the other. If they never checked, then the point of "wiping the prints off" is moot, as they very well may not have.

Another thing that bothers me is that it was just lying there on the trunk. That seems way too neat. For argument's sake, if no one had the weapon shouldered, and she was holding it by the barrel for whatever reason, the recoil impulse from the discharge is not being absorbed by anything. That means there will be a tendency for it to move in the direction opposite the firing. The recoil impulse will vary with caliber/gauge, powder load/bullet weight, and weight of the firearm, but with my experience, I find it very dubious that it just landed neatly on the trunk if no one was holding it.

The point is that if the shotgun does not fire during drop testing, it means it's remarkably unlikely that it would've discharged through being slammed on a trunk.

Unlikely, but not impossible. And we're talking about a UM case here. When we analyze these cases, we have to remember that they were chosen for UM specifically because they are statistical outliers. They are the exception rather than the rule.

Your point about the shotgun lying on the trunk is a compelling one, but in the accidental discharge scenario, Rae Ann was holding the weapon and her grip would have absorbed some of the recoil.

Your point about the shotgun lying on the trunk is a compelling one, but in the accidental discharge scenario, Rae Ann was holding the weapon and her grip would have absorbed some of the recoil.

She would have been holding it by the barrel, which is not going to absorb any recoil. It is not meant to be held by the barrel, so the barrel, being a smooth object, has nothing to really grip. The recoil force would cause it to move away from her. Not to mention the fact that all of the weight is at the other end, away from her. The center of gravity is way at the other end, especially with a longer barrelled shotgun, as that one seemed to be.

Unlikely, but not impossible.

It's also unlikely but not impossible that tomorrow I'll get a phone call from Zooey Deschanel professing her love to me, and her desire to get married and start a band. But I won't hold my breath waiting for that.

The case was chosen by UM because a family contacted them and said they wanted to put their story on the show, and the producers thought there was enough of a story there to do so. But let's not forget they also put the Magic Rock on.

I'm not saying that the boyfriend absolutely did it. I'm not saying that she didn't kill herself. I'm not saying anything here, other than the fact that if a proper drop test (which is designed to make the weapon fail) doesn't make it fire, the chances are slim to none that it will.

It's also unlikely but not impossible that tomorrow I'll get a phone call from Zooey Deschanel professing her love to me, and her desire to get married and start a band. But I won't hold my breath waiting for that.

The case was chosen by UM because a family contacted them and said they wanted to put their story on the show, and the producers thought there was enough of a story there to do so. But let's not forget they also put the Magic Rock on.

I'm not saying that the boyfriend absolutely did it. I'm not saying that she didn't kill herself. I'm not saying anything here, other than the fact that if a proper drop test (which is designed to make the weapon fail) doesn't make it fire, the chances are slim to none that it will.

Hahaha! I love your first paragraph... :D

I don't think this was murder, but I put the chances of the gun just going off somewhere around nil. If she had been slamming it on the car, there should have been evidence of that. Also, it is less likely to go off slamming down the long way (horizontal) than banging it on the ground (vertical).

I would absolutely buy the suicide scenario except for the fact it was physically impossible for her to pull the trigger with the gun aimed at her.

I think she was likely suicidal and probably having a breakdown. I think she threatened her boyfriend with this and somehow in a struggle for the weapon, it went off. I would love to hear what the boyfriend had to say to the police. Didn't he say he heard a gun blast but didn't go outside and didn't call the police? That alone should warrant further investigation of him.

The grand jury apparently voted unanimously not to classify it as a murder.

IIRC from the UM segment, they were trying to get the cause of death changed but in order to do that, there had to be a viable suspect. The way it was presented on UM, that sort of tied their hands as there was no viable suspect. That doesn't necessarily mean they unanimously thought it was suicide.

Hahaha! I love your first paragraph... :D

I don't think this was murder, but I put the chances of the gun just going off somewhere around nil. If she had been slamming it on the car, there should have been evidence of that. Also, it is less likely to go off slamming down the long way (horizontal) than banging it on the ground (vertical).

I would absolutely buy the suicide scenario except for the fact it was physically impossible for her to pull the trigger with the gun aimed at her.

I think she was likely suicidal and probably having a breakdown. I think she threatened her boyfriend with this and somehow in a struggle for the weapon, it went off. I would love to hear what the boyfriend had to say to the police. Didn't he say he heard a gun blast but didn't go outside and didn't call the police? That alone should warrant further investigation of him.

Well, Zooey is my dream woman... :lol: :lol: :lol:

I think this is the most likely scenario, honestly. And it would not be the first time we've seen inept or lazy police work on UM.

I don't keep track of every post in this forum.

That's too bad. I was looking forward to being your thread BFF for merely sharing your opinion on at least one aspect of this case and having you lead a snark-charge on everybody else.

Bummer. I'll hold out hope for the McClure thread.

Hahaha! I love your first paragraph... :D

I don't think this was murder, but I put the chances of the gun just going off somewhere around nil. If she had been slamming it on the car, there should have been evidence of that. Also, it is less likely to go off slamming down the long way (horizontal) than banging it on the ground (vertical).

I would absolutely buy the suicide scenario except for the fact it was physically impossible for her to pull the trigger with the gun aimed at her.

I think she was likely suicidal and probably having a breakdown. I think she threatened her boyfriend with this and somehow in a struggle for the weapon, it went off. I would love to hear what the boyfriend had to say to the police. Didn't he say he heard a gun blast but didn't go outside and didn't call the police? That alone should warrant further investigation of him.

Pretty much the conclusion I've come to as well.

Shotgun wounds are apparently some of the easiest by which to estimate how far the end of the barrel was from the victim at the time of shooting too, due to the shot spread. I guess I'm surprised the ME might have been quick to assume it was a contact wound.

That's too bad. I was looking forward to being your thread BFF for merely sharing your opinion on at least one aspect of this case and having you lead a snark-charge on everybody else.

Bummer. I'll hold out hope for the McClure thread.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Wait, I think this thread was about Rae Ann Mossor.

If there had been a struggle over the gun, I would imagine the neighbors would have heard the accompanying shouting and arguing that would have went along with that. Apparently they didn't.

The segment just doesn't make a strong case for murder. Usually, UM would do a good job of presenting suspects, motives, opportunity, etc. This had none of that. It's like chasing ghosts. I'm not surprised nobody has been convicted here. I think it's a colossal leap to assume the boyfriend did it when we know absolutely nothing about him.

Guns do go off accidentally. If the gun is fired and the owner/holder didn't intend to shoot it, then it's an accident.

I know they said Rae Ann was planning on joining the Navy, but considering how hysterical and irrational she was acting, I don't think she would have been a good fit.

It is entirely possible to commit suicide by shotgun. As somebody else said, she probably didn't use her fingers to pull the trigger, but used some object that was nearby.

Wait, I think this thread was about Rae Ann Mossor.

If there had been a struggle over the gun, I would imagine the neighbors would have heard the accompanying shouting and arguing that would have went along with that. Apparently they didn't.

The segment just doesn't make a strong case for murder. Usually, UM would do a good job of presenting suspects, motives, opportunity, etc. This had none of that. It's like chasing ghosts. I'm not surprised nobody has been convicted here. I think it's a colossal leap to assume the boyfriend did it when we know absolutely nothing about him.

Guns do go off accidentally. If the gun is fired and the owner/holder didn't intend to shoot it, then it's an accident.

I know they said Rae Ann was planning on joining the Navy, but considering how hysterical and irrational she was acting, I don't think she would have been a good fit.

It is entirely possible to commit suicide by shotgun. As somebody else said, she probably didn't use her fingers to pull the trigger, but used some object that was nearby.

If there was a struggle over the shotgun and it went off, that is not murder. No one is saying the boyfriend went in the house, got the shotgun, loaded it, came out, put it to her chest, and pulled the trigger.

And yes, it absolutely is possible to kill yourself with a shotgun. But wouldn't you say that the police would've pointed out "and here was some object nearby that she used to press the trigger" when called out on the fact that she didn't have freakishly long arms?

The point about the neighbors hearing an argument, though. Did anyone hear her attacking the car with the shotgun? I don't recall that. That takes away the possibility of the shotgun discharging due to her striking it on the car, if not. Because we're under the same logic that they would've heard any words or anything that were said by them. Here's a plausible scenario:

Rae Ann shows up with the shotgun, intending on killing herself OR simply threatening to. She tells this to the boyfriend outside, probably crying and upset. But not screaming. Nor is the boyfriend. He says "Give me that thing before someone gets hurt" and takes the shotgun from her. Not screaming. She says "No" and grabs the barrel to take it back. Maybe the boyfriend has his finger near the trigger when she does this, and her act of trying to pull it back wrenches it in his grip, finger goes to the trigger. Done.

That would not be murder. Nor would it be suicide. The boyfriend freaks out, throws the shotgun on his trunk, and runs inside. Tells the cops he knew nothing about it, because he panics and thinks they won't believe him.

Because we have no idea if they bothered to check for prints, we can't say anything with any certainty, can we?

I know they said Rae Ann was planning on joining the Navy, but considering how hysterical and irrational she was acting, I don't think she would have been a good fit.

Hysterical and irrational enough to keenly focus her efforts and still her inevitable tremoring and heavy breathing enough to quickly find an object nearby to craft some kind of makeshift Rube Goldberg machine designed to shoot herself in the chest with a 12-gauge shotgun constructed with a 36-inch barrel though, right?

It's obvious what happened. Before I divulge I think we should look at a few things a little more carefully:

1.) Apparently he heard a gunshot, but didn't bother to look outside AT ALL despite having an irate, and hysterical ex-girlfriend just on his property. Not even a peep out the window when the gunshot was coming from your driveway? Sure.

2.) The shotgun being conveniently placed on the trunk of the car.


It's obvious that the boyfriend is lying. I mean, who would go in the house with a girl screaming infront of your house late at night disturbing your neighbors and giving you a bad rep? Not the boyfriend and that's why he came outside with the gun.

I think he brought the gun out to "scare" her away. She's being loud at night airing you out infront of our neighbors. That's not a good look. But I'm also wondering if she threatened/was attempting to damage his car and that's when he went to get the gun, to "scare" her.

Something in that fight led him to get that gun. He aimed it at her, she grabbed it and a fight broke out. During that altercation he pulled the trigger, accidental or purposely I cannot say. After firing the shotgun he dropped it on the hood and ran in the house where "he heard something, but didn't go check it out".

I mean, who would look outside when a gun shot goes off after a heated fight with your ex-girlfriend? That be crazy.

For whatever reason, the police didn't care to investigate this one and just slapped suicide on it. I'm not sure if the boyfriend's family knew higher-ups, or if they just didn't give a damn.

I'm also skeptical about her "threatening to kill herself". That sounds taken out of context. Apparently she said “What do I have to do to prove my love for you”? generally that is followed by "kill myself?" It's just an exaggeration, not an actual suicide threat.

And if she was going to kill herself on his property because "she can't live without him" then why do it next to his car? Why not leave an impression and do it on the doorstep? Killing yourself next to a trunk isn't that romantic, or "dramatic".

It's obvious what happened. Before I divulge I think we should look at a few things a little more carefully:

1.) Apparently he heard a gunshot, but didn't bother to look outside AT ALL despite having an irate, and hysterical ex-girlfriend just on his property. Not even a peep out the window when the gunshot was coming from your driveway? Sure.

2.) The shotgun being conveniently placed on the trunk of the car.


It's obvious that the boyfriend is lying. I mean, who would go in the house with a girl screaming infront of your house late at night disturbing your neighbors and giving you a bad rep? Not the boyfriend and that's why he came outside with the gun.

I think he brought the gun out to "scare" her away. She's being loud at night airing you out infront of our neighbors. That's not a good look. But I'm also wondering if she threatened/was attempting to damage his car and that's when he went to get the gun, to "scare" her.

Something in that fight led him to get that gun. He aimed it at her, she grabbed it and a fight broke out. During that altercation he pulled the trigger, accidental or purposely I cannot say. After firing the shotgun he dropped it on the hood and ran in the house where "he heard something, but didn't go check it out".

I mean, who would look outside when a gun shot goes off after a heated fight with your ex-girlfriend? That be crazy.

For whatever reason, the police didn't care to investigate this one and just slapped suicide on it. I'm not sure if the boyfriend's family knew higher-ups, or if they just didn't give a damn.

I'm also skeptical about her "threatening to kill herself". That sounds taken out of context. Apparently she said “What do I have to do to prove my love for you”? generally that is followed by "kill myself?" It's just an exaggeration, not an actual suicide threat.

And if she was going to kill herself on his property because "she can't live without him" then why do it next to his car? Why not leave an impression and do it on the doorstep? Killing yourself next to a trunk isn't that romantic, or "dramatic".

You always seem to come up with some good theories in a majority of these cases. I don't know why I never thought of this, but it does sound pretty accurate and I can say that sounds more like a fight with a boyfriend than the boyfriend's original story. Yes, I think in some of these cases, maybe the cops take the witness stories at face value as the other witness is "dead" so it's hard to get both sides of the story.

You always seem to come up with some good theories in a majority of these cases. I don't know why I never thought of this, but it does sound pretty accurate and I can say that sounds more like a fight with a boyfriend than the boyfriend's original story. Yes, I think in some of these cases, maybe the cops take the witness stories at face value as the other witness is "dead" so it's hard to get both sides of the story.

Thanks.

His "lie" was the biggest thing I couldn't let go of. It doesn't make sense, nor does a shotgun placed perfectly on the trunk after it had just been discharged and should've been on the ground with the person who shot themselves with it.

It's obvious what happened. Before I divulge I think we should look at a few things a little more carefully:

1.) Apparently he heard a gunshot, but didn't bother to look outside AT ALL despite having an irate, and hysterical ex-girlfriend just on his property. Not even a peep out the window when the gunshot was coming from your driveway? Sure.

2.) The shotgun being conveniently placed on the trunk of the car.


It's obvious that the boyfriend is lying. I mean, who would go in the house with a girl screaming infront of your house late at night disturbing your neighbors and giving you a bad rep? Not the boyfriend and that's why he came outside with the gun.

I think he brought the gun out to "scare" her away. She's being loud at night airing you out infront of our neighbors. That's not a good look. But I'm also wondering if she threatened/was attempting to damage his car and that's when he went to get the gun, to "scare" her.

Something in that fight led him to get that gun. He aimed it at her, she grabbed it and a fight broke out. During that altercation he pulled the trigger, accidental or purposely I cannot say. After firing the shotgun he dropped it on the hood and ran in the house where "he heard something, but didn't go check it out".

I mean, who would look outside when a gun shot goes off after a heated fight with your ex-girlfriend? That be crazy.

For whatever reason, the police didn't care to investigate this one and just slapped suicide on it. I'm not sure if the boyfriend's family knew higher-ups, or if they just didn't give a damn.

I'm also skeptical about her "threatening to kill herself". That sounds taken out of context. Apparently she said “What do I have to do to prove my love for you”? generally that is followed by "kill myself?" It's just an exaggeration, not an actual suicide threat.

And if she was going to kill herself on his property because "she can't live without him" then why do it next to his car? Why not leave an impression and do it on the doorstep? Killing yourself next to a trunk isn't that romantic, or "dramatic".

Exactly. Glad you chimed in.

There is absolutely nothing on newspapers.com about this case. Which I find odd.

There is absolutely nothing on newspapers.com about this case. Which I find odd.

I signed up for that newspapers.com free trial a while ago thinking it would be a goldmine of information into old cases. What I found was, a majority of cases I typed in, nothing came up (and trust me, these stories were in their local papers at the time.) So, I feel that service still has many more archives to add before it becomes beneficial.

I signed up for that newspapers.com free trial a while ago thinking it would be a goldmine of information into old cases. What I found was, a majority of cases I typed in, nothing came up (and trust me, these stories were in their local papers at the time.) So, I feel that service still has many more archives to add before it becomes beneficial.

Same.

I did get a few new tidbits about the Tim McClure case as well as Cheryl Kenney, but other than that, I've come up empty handed more often than not.

It's obvious what happened. Before I divulge I think we should look at a few things a little more carefully:

1.) Apparently he heard a gunshot, but didn't bother to look outside AT ALL despite having an irate, and hysterical ex-girlfriend just on his property. Not even a peep out the window when the gunshot was coming from your driveway? Sure.

2.) The shotgun being conveniently placed on the trunk of the car.


It's obvious that the boyfriend is lying. I mean, who would go in the house with a girl screaming infront of your house late at night disturbing your neighbors and giving you a bad rep? Not the boyfriend and that's why he came outside with the gun.

I think he brought the gun out to "scare" her away. She's being loud at night airing you out infront of our neighbors. That's not a good look. But I'm also wondering if she threatened/was attempting to damage his car and that's when he went to get the gun, to "scare" her.

Something in that fight led him to get that gun. He aimed it at her, she grabbed it and a fight broke out. During that altercation he pulled the trigger, accidental or purposely I cannot say. After firing the shotgun he dropped it on the hood and ran in the house where "he heard something, but didn't go check it out".

I mean, who would look outside when a gun shot goes off after a heated fight with your ex-girlfriend? That be crazy.

For whatever reason, the police didn't care to investigate this one and just slapped suicide on it. I'm not sure if the boyfriend's family knew higher-ups, or if they just didn't give a damn.

I'm glad someone else here has a reasonable enough amount of logic to have thought of this. I've still seen nothing to indicate that she brought the shotgun. No talk of ownership, no talk of prints, nothing. Him having brought it out in this scenario makes total sense. Simplest answers are usually the most likely, and "inept or lazy police work" definitely is the simplest answer. Not a "one in a million accidental discharge not found during a test designed to make a firearm discharge."

Just saw this RAM episode in S02. I completely agree that the bf's story sounds like b.s. There is no way he wouldn't have gone outside to investigate if - as he "claims" - his estranged?! gf threatens to finish herself & he soon after heard a gun shot. At the least, he would have looked outside the window/door to see what happened, but he told the authorities he didn't even do that - after he heard the blast. Yeah, right.

He's definitely lying about something. I don't think RAM killed herself or had any intention of doing so. It sounds like the bf and/or his family may have had some "connections" that kept this from being investigated further.

Just saw this RAM episode in S02. I completely agree that the bf's story sounds like b.s. There is no way he wouldn't have gone outside to investigate if - as he "claims" - his estranged?! gf threatens to finish herself & he soon after heard a gun shot. At the least, he would have looked outside the window/door to see what happened, but he told the authorities he didn't even do that - after he heard the blast. Yeah, right.

He's definitely lying about something. I don't think RAM killed herself or had any intention of doing so. It sounds like the bf and/or his family may have had some "connections" that kept this from being investigated further.

Exactly. If the police would've looked at the gun more carefully (possibly doing a better job of dusting for prints) and put the screws to the BF just a little bit harder, the truth would've come out I think and this would be open-and-shut.

It's been a while since I have watched this segment. Refresh my memory: do we have anyone but the boyfriend's word for it that this threat she made ever happened?

It's been a while since I have watched this segment. Refresh my memory: do we have anyone but the boyfriend's word for it that this threat she made ever happened?

I don't think so?

It's been a while since I have watched this segment. Refresh my memory: do we have anyone but the boyfriend's word for it that this threat she made ever happened?

Three other people present that night backed up what the boyfriend had told police. And you do not bring a shotgun over to confront someone unless you intend on using it.

Three other people present that night backed up what the boyfriend had told police. And you do not bring a shotgun over to confront someone unless you intend on using it.

from what I understand these witnesses were all either friends or family members. My guess is they lied because they didn't want him to spend 3-5 years in prison for manslaughter.

I don't think this was a premeditated murder, but I don't think it was suicide either, the forensics people hired by Reigh Ann's family made a good argument she did not have the arm length to have discharged that shotgun. I think its far more likely Reigh Ann was shot by accident by her bf trying to get the shotgun away from her.

Do I think RAM was suicidal? Possibly. Do I think she was looking for attention from her boyfriend that night? Absolutely.

The problem is, the facts of this case do not support suicide. They just don't.

1.) According to Ann Mossor, Rae Ann’s arm measured 29 inches, but the distance from the trigger of the shotgun to the muzzle was 36 inches: “My arm length was very close to my daughter’s arm length. So I took a broomstick and measured it out to be able to push that trigger with my thumb and to be able to get it in after we’d seen the body diagram. I couldn’t reach it.” [Note: Because this comes from her mom, I'll take it with a grain of salt. But it would be really easy to measure the length of RAM's arm, and I don't think her mom was lying about this.]

2.) The original autopsy said she was killed by a "contact wound to the chest" (meaning the muzzle of the gun was against her skin) but powder burns were found on her left wrist. The Chief Medical Examiner for the State of North Carolina said his conclusions differed significantly from the findings of the autopsy: “It seems like suicide is extremely unlikely. I could see that the muzzle of the weapon was several feet from her body at the time of the discharge. The appearance of the powder on her hand indicate that that hand was close to the muzzle of the gun at discharge, perhaps grabbing at the gun, perhaps holding the gun."

3.) The Mosser's hired another medical expert, Dr. Vincent DiMaio, to look at the findings: “When I received the material that they had, I thought that the case had been screwed up. The police had a pre-set notion as to what had happened and they just didn’t follow through with an investigation. The medical examiner should have performed an autopsy. He should’ve been suspicious as soon as he saw the pattern of injuries. It’s not a contact wound. She couldn’t have inflicted it.” According to test performed by Dr. DiMaio and an assistant, Dr. DiMaio showed that it was physically impossible for Rae Ann to have shot herself in the chest: “This means that somebody else pulled the trigger. It’s possible that the reason her left hand was adjacent to the muzzle at the time it was fired was that she had grabbed it and was attempting to push the gun away at the time it was fired.”

4.) Three years after RAM died, the state medical examiner changed the manner of death to “undetermined.”

So I think there is ample evidence to show she was distraught, looking for attention, and very likely suicidal. But the facts do not support that she put the gun to her chest, pulled the trigger, and killed herself.

My opinion is that she went to her boyfriend's house to make a scene, there was some sort of argument, and the gun went off, most likely accidentally. I think the boyfriend panicked and changed his story. She may even have gone to his house with the intention to kill herself, but the facts do not support suicide.

My opinion is that she went to her boyfriend's house to make a scene, there was some sort of argument, and the gun went off, most likely accidentally. I think the boyfriend panicked and changed his story. She may even have gone to his house with the intention to kill herself, but the facts do not support suicide.

This, times roughly 1,000.

Here's my theory, this was a suicide. She laid the shotgun on the trunk of the car and leaned over the trunk to reach the trigger. After the shotgun goes off she falls back and the gun stays on the trunk.

All of the conjecture about her having so much going on in her life is just static, just taking the Navy entrance exam is hardly a commitment and to me implies a certain amount of listlessness and grasping at anything as an alternative to her current situation. Additionally, the mother's statement that she had too much of a temper to kill herself is meaningless.

She laid the shotgun on the trunk of the car and leaned over the trunk to reach the trigger. After the shotgun goes off she falls back and the gun stays on the trunk.

It's very telling that UM never mentions the point of entry to her fatal wound, only that it was to "the chest". We are told at how she couldn't have reached the trigger, but she absolutely could have if she leaned forward it's certainly possible that she could have.

It's very telling that UM never mentions the point of entry to her fatal wound, only that it was to "the chest". We are told at how she couldn't have reached the trigger, but she absolutely could have if she leaned forward it's certainly possible that she could have.

It's also quite telling that the authorities didn't bother doing a thorough examination of the gun. If they found/took some prints, depending on where/whose they were, it quite possibly could've solved this case before it even made it to UM.

It's also quite telling that the authorities didn't bother doing a thorough examination of the gun. If they found/took some prints, depending on where/whose they were, it quite possibly could've solved this case before it even made it to UM.

I am in receipt of your comment dated January 4, 2023.

It's also quite telling that the authorities didn't bother doing a thorough examination of the gun. If they found/took some prints, depending on where/whose they were, it quite possibly could've solved this case before it even made it to UM.

The autopsy had large GSR found on one of Rae Ann's arms, IIRC. As if she was holding the gun close to her chest when it was fired.

Three other people present that night backed up what the boyfriend had told police. And you do not bring a shotgun over to confront someone unless you intend on using it.

This is one thing I always wondered about the case and they totally glossed over in the segment -- Did Raeanne bring the shotgun? Was it hers? If it was -- I mean, case closed.


I am in receipt of your comment dated January 4, 2023.

ISWYDT

This is one thing I always wondered about the case and they totally glossed over in the segment -- Did Raeanne bring the shotgun? Was it hers? If it was -- I mean, case closed.

I'm willing to bet almost everything that I own that it was her (or her family's) shotgun.

This is one of the best examples of UM leaving leaving out important details that would help a lot.

Most importantly, who did the shotgun belong to? And who's fingerprints were on it? That would solve 99% of this case. Yet, there is no mention of either whatsoever.

I don't know what to think, but suicide seems more likely given the available information. The parents said Rae Ann's arms were too short to have shot herself, but what if they were mistaken? My parents couldn't tell you how long my arms are. Also, it's possible to reach the trigger with some maneuvering.

Another odd thing is UM said it happened around 7:00 PM on the boyfriend's suburban street. If he killed her, then he did it when everybody could have easily seen him do it and then he left the murder weapon near the body, and walked to his house. Very hard to believe.

This is one of the best examples of UM leaving leaving out important details that would help a lot.

Most importantly, who did the shotgun belong to? And who's fingerprints were on it? That would solve 99% of this case. Yet, there is no mention of either whatsoever.

I don't know what to think, but suicide seems more likely given the available information. The parents said Rae Ann's arms were too short to have shot herself, but what if they were mistaken? My parents couldn't tell you how long my arms are. Also, it's possible to reach the trigger with some maneuvering.

Another odd thing is UM said it happened around 7:00 PM on the boyfriend's suburban street. If he killed her, then he did it when everybody could have easily seen him do it and then he left the murder weapon near the body, and walked to his house. Very hard to believe.

The shotgun belonged to her boyfriend as did the car she was found next to. So since it was his, his fingerprints being on it would not be out of the ordinary either way.

And you make sound points about it being first degree murder. I don't think that's the case. Honestly what I believe happened is that it was an accident. I believe someone probably her boyfriend followed her out of the house. Maybe she did threaten to kill herself. She had his shotgun and I think he was trying to get away from her and it accidentally went off killing her. I think his family and friends lied for him because they knew he could easily go to jail three or four years for manslaughter. His story about her saying what do I have to do to prove my love for you kill myself? To me that was way to Days of Our Lives and doesn't sound quite right. Maybe she did threaten to do it to get his attention but I don't think she actually intended to. And saying he feared for his life doesn't make sense. She was apparently not threatening him she was threatening to off herself. So why would he fear for his life? Doesn't quite add up.

The shotgun belonged to her boyfriend as did the car she was found next to.

Has this been verified? I can't find anything that definitively states one way or the other if the shotgun was the boyfriend's.

The shotgun belonged to her boyfriend as did the car she was found next to. So since it was his, his fingerprints being on it would not be out of the ordinary either way.

And you make sound points about it being first degree murder. I don't think that's the case. Honestly what I believe happened is that it was an accident. I believe someone probably her boyfriend followed her out of the house. Maybe she did threaten to kill herself. She had his shotgun and I think he was trying to get away from her and it accidentally went off killing her. I think his family and friends lied for him because they knew he could easily go to jail three or four years for manslaughter. His story about her saying what do I have to do to prove my love for you kill myself? To me that was way to Days of Our Lives and doesn't sound quite right. Maybe she did threaten to do it to get his attention but I don't think she actually intended to. And saying he feared for his life doesn't make sense. She was apparently not threatening him she was threatening to off herself. So why would he fear for his life? Doesn't quite add up.

Where did you find out about the shotgun? I can't find any mention of who it belonged to.

But even if it was his gun and it went off accidentally, there's no way in hell police would not investigate further. His gun with his prints on it means the police have a case, and his family's word means nothing.

Where did you find out about the shotgun? I can't find any mention of who it belonged to.

But even if it was his gun and it went off accidentally, there's no way in hell police would not investigate further. His gun with his prints on it means the police have a case, and his family's word means nothing.

His prints on the shotgun would not be unusual if it was his.

My opinion is that she went to her boyfriend's house to make a scene, there was some sort of argument, and the gun went off, most likely accidentally. I think the boyfriend panicked and changed his story. She may even have gone to his house with the intention to kill herself, but the facts do not support suicide.

TM's reply is from 2020 but I wanted to reply anyway because this is what I think is the most likely scenario. It has always bugged me that the segment doesn't tell us really anything about Rae Ann's boyfriend.

UM doesn't tell us his name or whether they even tried to interview him for the segment, despite him being the last person known to see her alive, and her dying in front of her house. If he had a criminal history I would assume they'd mention it, but we don't really know for sure. It's a frustrating omission.

We don't know if his account is even reliable ("What do I need to do to prove my love, kill myself?!" etc.).