http://www.sfexaminer.com/local/Woman-claims-her-father-was-Zodiac-Killer-44013032.html

I wont believe it unless they get a dna or 50% dna match of those stamps.

This woman is either a nutjob or a con artist. She claims that her dad had her tagging along in the car with him when he committed all these murders. Um, yeah, riiiiight. A Zodiac forum that I follow has already found about a gazillion inconsistencies in her story. She can add her name to the list of other people who have falsely claimed their dad/uncle/brother/etc. were the Zodiac.

Why would anyone brag about something like that in the first place?? :confused:

Well there's DNA, fingerprints and handwrighting evidence a trifecta.

we'll no for certain.

personally, I think Richard Gaikowski, Rick Marshall & Arthur Leigh Allen remain the top three suspects for Zodiac (in that order)

What;s interesting about all three of those suspects is that they are not married or have children. (at least I think that's the case with Gaikowski, two of the suspects were most likely gay)

It's a strong possibility that Zodiac did not have a family or wife.

1. He had a basement where he did a lot of his work,
2. a machine to make the codes and spent countless hours.
3. Spent countless hours traipsing for victims.
4. Had to build and create his "super villain suit" (how the heck could he hide that from his family
5. There would also potentially have to be a serious incident that occured to stop his killings. One that a family would notice around the same time as the
6. with all the letters he wrote, how the heck could any family member not come across his letters.

This woman is either a nutjob or a con artist. She claims that her dad had her tagging along in the car with him when he committed all these murders. Um, yeah, riiiiight. A Zodiac forum that I follow has already found about a gazillion inconsistencies in her story. She can add her name to the list of other people who have falsely claimed their dad/uncle/brother/etc. were the Zodiac.

Let me get this straight..
1. she was in the back of the car late at night when he killed Darlene McFerrin? She was awake, to remember it? What reason would Z have to bring his daughter on this attack, when she should probably be in bed?

2. She couldn't be at Stines. Since it was a cab drive. And zodiac was in the back of the cab. The police did not see a girl with Z near the Presidio. What did he do? Have her get home by herself?

3. Did he just leave her in the car at Lake Berryessa and shoot those two kids before taking his daughter back to school???!!!!

Well, I guess it;s nice that Z spent quality time with his daughter!!!:D

Mastermind, she claims she was along for all of the murders. I don't know if she said this at the press conference, but in previous correspondence she has had with some Zodiac sleuths, she has said that she was present for all of the known murders:

1. She said that she was in the car for both the Ferrin/Mageau and Farraday/Jensen attacks. She said her dad told her that the gunshots were firecrackers. She actually claims that Darlene Ferrin's ex-husband is her cousin, but he has openly denied having any idea who the heck she is.
2. She said that she is the one who wrote on the car at Lake Berryessa, and that she sewed the weird outfit he wore there.
3. For the Stine murder, she said her dad left her in his car at Maple St., then got in the cab with Stine, committed the murder, and came back to her.

She also said that she actually wrote the Belli letter herself (when she was 7 years old!) because she wanted to get help for her dad. It should be noted that the Belli letter contains the phrase, "This is the Zodiac," but she claims that, until she saw a story and sketch of Zodiac on America's Most Wanted in 2007, that she had never really heard of the Zodiac killer.

Also, she has given long, detailed accounts of both the Ferrin/Mageau and Farraday/Jensen attacks, including remembering exact conversations and words used. This all happened 40 years ago when she was 7 years old.

Her story is total BS.
personally, I think Richard Gaikowski, Rick Marshall & Arthur Leigh Allen remain the top three suspects for Zodiac (in that order)
Gaikowski, eh? Do you ever read the Zodiackiller.com forums?

Her story is total BS.

Quote:
personally, I think Richard Gaikowski, Rick Marshall & Arthur Leigh Allen remain the top three suspects for Zodiac (in that order)

Gaikowski, eh? Do you ever read the Zodiackiller.com forums?

I'm an active member. :D

I haven;t gone so far as to join Tom Voigt on his San Fran expeditions but I follow them and chime in every now and then.

Ahhh, I see. Me, too. I hadn't been around in a while, but when I saw this news, I knew they would be buzzing about it.

As if there wasn't already enough to disbelieve this woman's story, apparently, she has previously claimed to be the illegitimate love child of JFK who was, coincidentally, at the Ambassador Hotel with RFK and Rose Kennedy just before RFK was assassinated--so she ties in with another unsolved mystery! :)

http://www.truecrimereport.com/2009/05/deborah_perez_and_the_zodiacjf.php

As if there wasn't already enough to disbelieve this woman's story, apparently, she has previously claimed to be the illegitimate love child of JFK who was, coincidentally, at the Ambassador Hotel with RFK and Rose Kennedy just before RFK was assassinated--so she ties in with another unsolved mystery!

http://www.truecrimereport.com/2009/...e_zodiacjf.php

Next she'll be saying Z is a decendant of the Roswell aliens. A third mystery solved!!!!:D

Does this wacko girl at least have a basement in her old house? :D


OT-It is worth pointing out that the last Zodiac victim Paul Stine was at a mental institution for a time.

It's being discussed amongst the Zkiller forum as to whether Stine may have met Z while at this institution.

IMHO, The Stine killing is the most important murder in the case. (especially since we can;t really pinpoint his first murder)

It's such a hard case because we don't know how many other murders he may have been responsible for. If you believe that the confirmed victims are the only ones, then Stine's case certainly stands out as all three of his other attacks involved couples. It was also the only case to happen right in the middle of a big city, contrasted with the somewhat more secluded locations of the others. It almost seemed to me like his "thing" was to attack the couples either because he believed they were being sinful or out of his own frustration with not having been able to establish relationships with women, and his murder of Stine was just done to get a bunch of publicity. That murder was committed right in San Francisco and he used that murder to conclusively announce himself by sending pieces of Stine's shirt to the media.

It's such a hard case because we don't know how many other murders he may have been responsible for. If you believe that the confirmed victims are the only ones, then Stine's case certainly stands out as all three of his other attacks involved couples. It was also the only case to happen right in the middle of a big city, contrasted with the somewhat more secluded locations of the others. It almost seemed to me like his "thing" was to attack the couples either because he believed they were being sinful or out of his own frustration with not having been able to establish relationships with women, and his murder of Stine was just done to get a bunch of publicity. That murder was committed right in San Francisco and he used that murder to conclusively announce himself by sending pieces of Stine's shirt to the media.

I personally think that Zodiac could care less about murdering people as much as announcing the fact that he murdered people.

That's why I don;t think he would kill other people after the Stine killing, because it would defeat the purpose of writing the letters. What;s the fun of killing these people if nobody knows about it.

To me once Stine was killed, Z was all about the letters and taking credit fror crimes he didn;t commit.

Z was the ultimate publicity whore of the century.

I largely agree with you on that count, Mastermind. And if it's true that Zodiac got off on the publicity more than on the murders themselves, then it makes sense how a serial killer could suddenly just stop killing (without the explanation of having died). He must love the fact that people have spent years trying to link so many other murders to him without him having to actually kill anyone else.

Out of curiosity, which murders do you think Z was responsible for? Any beyond the confirmed victims?

Out of curiosity, which murders do you think Z was responsible for? Any beyond the confirmed victims?

I pretty much stick to the confimed killings. (Blue Rock Springs, Lake Herman Road, Lake Berryessa, San Francisco)

I don't believe the following were Zodiac incidents

1. Robert Domingos and Linda Edwards (a couple killed in 1963, done via the same style as the first three Z killings) It's a huge leap that Z killed once in 1963, then started up again in 1968. I don;t believe Z killed continuosly from 1963 to 1968 and only started to write letters about it 1969. I think the reason see did not write a letter for Faraday and Jensen was because he wanted to make sure he got away with the first killing before writing about it. He also probably wanted two incidents to show the newspapers that he was serious.

2. I don;t beleive that Cheri Jo Bates was a Z killing. Mostly because the Riverside police had another suspect better than Z. It is possible that Z wrote the desk etching and knew about Cheri Jo Bates murder. Cheri Jo's murder was most likely another example of Z taking credit for other people's murders.

3. I don;t think Donna Lass was a Z murder. She is a missing person and goes against Z's MO. Also there is another suspect in this case better than Z. There is also some evidence that Donna Lass was may have disappeared on her own.

4. Kathleen Johns was not a Z killing. First, her story constantly changed. Second, why would Z be so merciful in letting both her and her baby go? Seems to me that Z could scare even more people if he tabbed a young mother and her child to his body count. Third, why would Z risk taking credit for this considering that Kathleen saw his face? Fourth, there is another serial attacker who shared the MO used on Kathleen John.

That being said. I don;t think killing people or animals was something unique to Z. He was most certainly a hunter and possibly a military man or cop.

One of my biggest beliefs on Z is that he is not so much serial killer as he was a terrorist. To me, he is more in the vein of the Church Bomber, Zip Gun Bomber, and Unabomber (no I don;t think Ted K was Zodiac).

Z was most likely not interested in killing people so much as he was in using those murders to make a point ( or to feed his ego).

The reason Z stopped after Stine was most likely:
1. He nearly got caught by the police at San Fran
2. The sketch of him was accurate
3. With a murder in San Fran, it meant better Law Enforcement was after him.
4. He may have been interviewed by the police which scared him off.
5. After the school bus and bomb threat, Z had to live up to it and do something other than simply killing cab drivers and couples. Z probably knew he could never do something equal to the bus and bomb threat.

I pretty much stick to the confimed killings. (Blue Rock Springs, Lake Herman Road, Lake Berryessa, San Francisco)

I don't believe the following were Zodiac incidents

1. Robert Domingos and Linda Edwards (a couple killed in 1963, done via the same style as the first three Z killings) It's a huge leap that Z killed once in 1963, then started up again in 1968. I don;t believe Z killed continuosly from 1963 to 1968 and only started to write letters about it 1969. I think the reason see did not write a letter for Faraday and Jensen was because he wanted to make sure he got away with the first killing before writing about it. He also probably wanted two incidents to show the newspapers that he was serious.

2. I don;t beleive that Cheri Jo Bates was a Z killing. Mostly because the Riverside police had another suspect better than Z. It is possible that Z wrote the desk etching and knew about Cheri Jo Bates murder. Cheri Jo's murder was most likely another example of Z taking credit for other people's murders.

3. I don;t think Donna Lass was a Z murder. She is a missing person and goes against Z's MO. Also there is another suspect in this case better than Z. There is also some evidence that Donna Lass was may have disappeared on her own.

4. Kathleen Johns was not a Z killing. First, her story constantly changed. Second, why would Z be so merciful in letting both her and her baby go? Seems to me that Z could scare even more people if he tabbed a young mother and her child to his body count. Third, why would Z risk taking credit for this considering that Kathleen saw his face? Fourth, there is another serial attacker who shared the MO used on Kathleen John.

That being said. I don;t think killing people or animals was something unique to Z. He was most certainly a hunter and possibly a military man or cop.

One of my biggest beliefs on Z is that he is not so much serial killer as he was a terrorist. To me, he is more in the vein of the Church Bomber, Zip Gun Bomber, and Unabomber (no I don;t think Ted K was Zodiac).

Z was most likely not interested in killing people so much as he was in using those murders to make a point ( or to feed his ego).

The reason Z stopped after Stine was most likely:
1. He nearly got caught by the police at San Fran
2. The sketch of him was accurate
3. With a murder in San Fran, it meant better Law Enforcement was after him.
4. He may have been interviewed by the police which scared him off.
5. After the school bus and bomb threat, Z had to live up to it and do something other than simply killing cab drivers and couples. Z probably knew he could never do something equal to the bus and bomb threat.

Hi Mastermind, I really like your analysis of this case. And, I tend to hold the same feelings about why Z stopped. Especially 1 & 2. My interest in this case peaked after Fincher's movie (which, IMO is a masterpiece) was released. I kind of feel this way about the prime suspects, mentioned by yourself.

Richard Gaikowski - As good as he looks as a suspect, I can't help but wonder why SFPD hasn't looked harder at him as a suspect. Add to that, while his booking photo from 1965 looks a lot like the SF composite, I have yet to see a photo of him from 1969, have you?

Rick Marshall - The handwriting. Rick Marshall sure seems like a great suspect but as I have read on Voigt's site, it seems as though police cleared him prior to his death. According to Voigt, a nurse at the home where Marshall was staying got suspicious of him in the last few years of his life (very recently) and told the authorities. Apparently they spoke to him and were satisfied that he is not Z.

ALA - I will admit that he seems like the most likely suspect. But his not looking ANYTHING like the composite is discouraging to me. Add to that the DNA mismatch.

Unlike a lot of people that are obsessed (and yes, I mean that with all sincerity) with this case, I actually want it solved. I've always been a junkie for cold cases; Bill Kurtis' voice is synonymous with them to me. :) It does seem like there a lot of people that have a lot invested in this thing never being solved, typically for financial motivations, which I find pathetically sad.

Have you read anything about Christopher Farmer's main suspect, Gareth Penn? What are your thoughts? There's a photo of Penn from 1980 that I swear if you give him a crew cut and take away the beard...it is a DEAD RINGER for the SFPD composite. I honestly don't understand a lot of Farmer's hypothesis (which can be found at the Opord Analytical website) but it's interesting.

Do you think this case will be solved? Do you know if the authorities are actively looking at suspects? Here's my thing, I'm a hard evidence guy. All of these theores (ConspiraZ, Ted K, et al) are all annoying distractions. In the case of Gaikowski, a DNA match to the stamps will be hard because he's dead. But there could be DNA of his still around or handwriting samples. With Penn, he's still alive. They could dig in his trash to get his DNA and test it, have they?? I assume Marshall was cleared via voluntary DNA testing, I don't know though.

God this is frustrating...

Richard Gaikowski - As good as he looks as a suspect, I can't help but wonder why SFPD hasn't looked harder at him as a suspect. Add to that, while his booking photo from 1965 looks a lot like the SF composite, I have yet to see a photo of him from 1969, have you

The SFPD didn't , but the FBI did look at Richard Gaikowski based on an informer that gave an interesting story about conversations with RG regarding the Zodiac Killer.

The FBI looked into this, but had no information or reason to consider him as a POI. Why they didn't consider him is widely debated.

Tom Voigt recently met this informant and that is how the name Richard Gaikowski came about as a suspect to Zodiac Killer.com.

I have yet to see a photo of him from 1969, have you?

I've seen recent photos of him from later in his life. He even looks more like the composite in those.

It's important to keep in mind that several people back then had that style.


Rick Marshall - The handwriting. Rick Marshall sure seems like a great suspect but as I have read on Voigt's site, it seems as though police cleared him prior to his death. According to Voigt, a nurse at the home where Marshall was staying got suspicious of him in the last few years of his life (very recently) and told the authorities. Apparently they spoke to him and were satisfied that he is not Z.

Yes, he has been cleared. The reason I still belive him to be a valid POI is that his handwriting has been considered the closes to Zs. Also Ken Narlow of Nappa Police has remained adamant that Rick Marshall is the best suspect. One wonders if he had other info.

It has been hypothesized that Rick Marshall's handwriting was used as a template for Z to copy in writing his letters. I don;t know how realistic it is for Z to do this.

ALA - I will admit that he seems like the most likely suspect. But his not looking ANYTHING like the composite is discouraging to me. Add to that the DNA mismatch.

Assuming that killer of Stine is Zodiac. The torn shirt seems to prove that it was Z. But the possiblity must be considered.

The other composite during one of the other murders made does look like ALA with a hairpiece. Though that composite was very, very rough.

ALA is a bizzare character in this who may have known Z or wanted to be a copy cat.

I still don;t know what ALA was going to do with all those explosives in his home. :eek:

Have you read anything about Christopher Farmer's main suspect, Gareth Penn? What are your thoughts? There's a photo of Penn from 1980 that I swear if you give him a crew cut and take away the beard...it is a DEAD RINGER for the SFPD composite. I honestly don't understand a lot of Farmer's hypothesis (which can be found at the Opord Analytical website) but it's interesting.

I don;t believe Gareth Penn was Z for reasons WAY too numerous to go into.:rolleyes:

Do you think this case will be solved? Do you know if the authorities are actively looking at suspects? Here's my thing, I'm a hard evidence guy. All of these theores (ConspiraZ, Ted K, et al) are all annoying distractions. In the case of Gaikowski, a DNA match to the stamps will be hard because he's dead. But there could be DNA of his still around or handwriting samples. With Penn, he's still alive. They could dig in his trash to get his DNA and test it, have they?? I assume Marshall was cleared via voluntary DNA testing, I don't know though.


Because Rick Marshall was cleared, the police most likely will not request DNA testing.

The situation regarding Gaikowski is tricky for several reasons. Tom has wanted to tread lightly on this case. Unfortunately Gaik's name has gotten into mainstream media. So far, there has been no outrage against Tom by Gaik;s relatives.

Do I think this case could be solved?

Yes.

1. There;s a lot more evidence on this case than on most serial killer cases. We have DNA, handwriting letters, figerprints. How many times can you see you have that trifecta?

2. Z is not your typical serial killer. Judging by his letters and codes. he is a person unique enough to found. Z was not your average joe.

1. he was familiar with theatre and films (how many people knew about the play The Mikado back then?, much less the most dangerous game?)
2. He had acess to a basement back in 1969.
3. He was at least 30-45 years of age.
4. Part of the counter culture movement
5. Was in the armed forces or police.
6. Avid reader of Bay area newspapers and may have wrote his own newspaper article. Knew the personalities and stylings of the San Franciso news scene.
7. An avid hunter
8. Had code books and books of symbols or had an interest in codes.
9. Had a "special printing device" in order to produce the codes.
10. LIved in Vallejo at he time of the murders. Knew the area well enough to know that the murder scenes were popular lover's lanes. Knew which Police department to call. He most definitely did not live in San Francisco.
11. Knew at least one of the victims. Possibly two (McFerrin & Stine)
12. Could sew and had acess to to a sewing machine
13. Was unmarried and had no children. Most likely lived alone. If not, most likely lived with a male partner( not necessarily homosexual) that was a confidant.
14. Had to wear glasses at the time of the Stine killing. Yet possibly not at the Blue Rock Springs.
15. Most likely still has Paul Stines shirt and his car keys.

I believe the bigger problem in this case is the same one with the Jon Benet Ramsey muder case.

There is TOO much data, and most likely some of it is false and meant to mislead investigators intentionally or unintenionally.

The most perfect example of this is the Zodiac ciphers. I still laugh at how much time is wasted by people trying to figure out something that is most likely gibberish.

Also Z;s killing pattern. How many people have made the assumption that Z was a sexual predator based on the fact that he killed the women not the men. When in reality it was most likely pure coincidence that the two men survived.

The SFPD didn't , but the FBI did look at Richard Gaikowski based on an informer that gave an interesting story about conversations with RG regarding the Zodiac Killer.

The FBI looked into this, but had no information or reason to consider him as a POI. Why they didn't consider him is widely debated.

Tom Voigt recently met this informant and that is how the name Richard Gaikowski came about as a suspect to Zodiac Killer.com.



I've seen recent photos of him from later in his life. He even looks more like the composite in those.

It's important to keep in mind that several people back then had that style.




Yes, he has been cleared. The reason I still belive him to be a valid POI is that his handwriting has been considered the closes to Zs. Also Ken Narlow of Nappa Police has remained adamant that Rick Marshall is the best suspect. One wonders if he had other info.

It has been hypothesized that Rick Marshall's handwriting was used as a template for Z to copy in writing his letters. I don;t know how realistic it is for Z to do this.



Assuming that killer of Stine is Zodiac. The torn shirt seems to prove that it was Z. But the possiblity must be considered.

The other composite during one of the other murders made does look like ALA with a hairpiece. Though that composite was very, very rough.

ALA is a bizzare character in this who may have known Z or wanted to be a copy cat.

I still don;t know what ALA was going to do with all those explosives in his home. :eek:


I don;t believe Gareth Penn was Z for reasons WAY too numerous to go into.:rolleyes:




Because Rick Marshall was cleared, the police most likely will not request DNA testing.

The situation regarding Gaikowski is tricky for several reasons. Tom has wanted to tread lightly on this case. Unfortunately Gaik's name has gotten into mainstream media. So far, there has been no outrage against Tom by Gaik;s relatives.

Do I think this case could be solved?

Yes.

1. There;s a lot more evidence on this case than on most serial killer cases. We have DNA, handwriting letters, figerprints. How many times can you see you have that trifecta?

2. Z is not your typical serial killer. Judging by his letters and codes. he is a person unique enough to found. Z was not your average joe.

1. he was familiar with theatre and films (how many people knew about the play The Mikado back then?, much less the most dangerous game?)
2. He had acess to a basement back in 1969.
3. He was at least 30-45 years of age.
4. Part of the counter culture movement
5. Was in the armed forces or police.
6. Avid reader of Bay area newspapers and may have wrote his own newspaper article. Knew the personalities and stylings of the San Franciso news scene.
7. An avid hunter
8. Had code books and books of symbols or had an interest in codes.
9. Had a "special printing device" in order to produce the codes.
10. LIved in Vallejo at he time of the murders. Knew the area well enough to know that the murder scenes were popular lover's lanes. Knew which Police department to call. He most definitely did not live in San Francisco.
11. Knew at least one of the victims. Possibly two (McFerrin & Stine)
12. Could sew and had acess to to a sewing machine
13. Was unmarried and had no children. Most likely lived alone. If not, most likely lived with a male partner( not necessarily homosexual) that was a confidant.
14. Had to wear glasses at the time of the Stine killing. Yet possibly not at the Blue Rock Springs.
15. Most likely still has Paul Stines shirt and his car keys.

I believe the bigger problem in this case is the same one with the Jon Benet Ramsey muder case.

There is TOO much data, and most likely some of it is false and meant to mislead investigators intentionally or unintenionally.

The most perfect example of this is the Zodiac ciphers. I still laugh at how much time is wasted by people trying to figure out something that is most likely gibberish.

Also Z;s killing pattern. How many people have made the assumption that Z was a sexual predator based on the fact that he killed the women not the men. When in reality it was most likely pure coincidence that the two men survived.

All good points. So, having ruled out Marshall, (probably) ALA, Penn, that leaves... Lawrence Kane & Richard Gaikowski as serious candidates for being Z. One is alive and one is dead.

Do you put any creedence in Harvey Hines analysis about Kane? If not, do you think that perhaps Kane was the one that abducted Johns and thus confused the case by identifying him (perhaps out of the rush of emotion) to the SFPD composite on the wall at the precinct from 1970 after her abduction? Has Kane ever been seriously considered a suspect by Napa, Vallejo or SF?

I've been thinking about this case a lot lately and I often wonder if maybe...just maybe... Z was never interviewed by police, has never shown up on a suspect list and has completely skated under the radar living a very mundane life since the last 'a Citizen' letter from '74?

I would be very interested to hear your thoughts.

Thanks for all that info, Mastermind.

The Zodiac case is one that I don't follow closely, partly because of how complicated it is. All those points you posted are very helpful and you cleared up some misconceptions that I had about the case.

And JMO, but for the era in which his crimes occurred, that was some extremely odd behavior for a killer. Maybe even weirder than BTK in some aspects. Especially the codes and the costume.

Oh, that reminds me... Is his case the one where some teacher and his wife cracked one of the coded messages? Have all of the codes been deciphered by now?

And JMO, but for the era in which his crimes occurred, that was some extremely odd behavior for a killer. Maybe even weirder than BTK in some aspects. Especially the codes and the costume.

The funny thing is that so many people look at the costume as being a sadistic flourish by Z. Yet if you think about it, the costume is more practical than anything.

1. Remember that there was a surviving witness at the 2nd attack. Z probably thought it was prudent to wear a mask.

2.The only thing really exotic about Z's costume was the Zodiac executioner hood with the Z symbol. Other than that, it's just sun glasses, boots, black overals and a work acket. The costume is not as exotic as you think. Survivor Bryan Hartnell treated Z like he was an ordinary robber. He didn;t seem any more frightened by the suit than in any other situation.

3. Why Z wore his symbol is an interesting topic of discussion. Few people knew what Z's symbol was. Hartnell didn;t recognize it. Z was attempting to kill both so it was pure luck that Hartnell survived to report Z's duds.



I've been thinking about this case a lot lately and I often wonder if maybe...just maybe... Z was never interviewed by police, has never shown up on a suspect list and has completely skated under the radar living a very mundane life since the last 'a Citizen' letter from '74?

The letters are an intriguing problem, since it is difficult to determine which are real Zodiac letters and which are fake.

Especially after Stine's killing, where Zodiac mania was starting to get in full swing.

Do you put any creedence in Harvey Hines analysis about Kane? If not, do you think that perhaps Kane was the one that abducted Johns and thus confused the case by identifying him (perhaps out of the rush of emotion) to the SFPD composite on the wall at the precinct from 1970 after her abduction? Has Kane ever been seriously considered a suspect by Napa, Vallejo or SF?

As much as Larry Kane fits the profile of Z, Hines story and investigation has a lot of holes in it. I really question whether Kane knew Darlene McFerrin as is claimed. I would put Larry Kane as 4th behind Rick Marshall as a Z suspect.

The funny thing is that so many people look at the costume as being a sadistic flourish by Z. Yet if you think about it, the costume is more practical than anything.

1. Remember that there was a surviving witness at the 2nd attack. Z probably thought it was prudent to wear a mask.

2.The only thing really exotic about Z's costume was the Zodiac executioner hood with the Z symbol. Other than that, it's just sun glasses, boots, black overals and a work acket. The costume is not as exotic as you think. Survivor Bryan Hartnell treated Z like he was an ordinary robber. He didn;t seem any more frightened by the suit than in any other situation.

3. Why Z wore his symbol is an interesting topic of discussion. Few people knew what Z's symbol was. Hartnell didn;t recognize it. Z was attempting to kill both so it was pure luck that Hartnell survived to report Z's duds.





The letters are an intriguing problem, since it is difficult to determine which are real Zodiac letters and which are fake.

Especially after Stine's killing, where Zodiac mania was starting to get in full swing.



As much as Larry Kane fits the profile of Z, Hines story and investigation has a lot of holes in it. I really question whether Kane knew Darlene McFerrin as is claimed. I would put Larry Kane as 4th behind Rick Marshall as a Z suspect.

Okay, that begs the question, who is your number 1? Gyke?

Yes, Gaikowski, for these reasons:

1. He has being interviewed by the Law enforcement, so he was somebody that was on their radar
2. The story of the informant is to compelling to just dismiss. It's just as compelling as those of the people that ratted out Arthur Leigh Allen.
3. Gaikowski is a dead ringer for the last composite sketch.
4. Gaikowski wore glasses all the time.
5. Gaikowski was a newspaper man who would have a gift for writing and an interest in newspapers.
6. Gaikowski had an interest theatre and the movies, which would explain the fascination with The Mikado and The Most Dangerous game.
7. Gaikowski wrote an article before the killings advocating the shooting of young couples in order to show solidarity for the counter culture movement.
8. Mike Mageau had said in an interview that Darlene McFerrin said "It's Richard!".
9. Many of Gaikowski's wrote for a newspaper called "Good Times", Z mentions the phrase Good Times in one of his letters. In the artwork of the Good Times magazine, the G and T frightenly resemble the zodiac symbol.
10. The publishing office of Good Times magazine is right next to victime Paul Stines home.

Now I'm not saying the evidence is ironclad against Gyke, but at this moment he remains the best and most intriguing suspect for Z.

Yes, Gaikowski, for these reasons:

1. He has being interviewed by the Law enforcement, so he was somebody that was on their radar
2. The story of the informant is to compelling to just dismiss. It's just as compelling as those of the people that ratted out Arthur Leigh Allen.
3. Gaikowski is a dead ringer for the last composite sketch.
4. Gaikowski wore glasses all the time.
5. Gaikowski was a newspaper man who would have a gift for writing and an interest in newspapers.
6. Gaikowski had an interest theatre and the movies, which would explain the fascination with The Mikado and The Most Dangerous game.
7. Gaikowski wrote an article before the killings advocating the shooting of young couples in order to show solidarity for the counter culture movement.
8. Mike Mageau had said in an interview that Darlene McFerrin said "It's Richard!".
9. Many of Gaikowski's wrote for a newspaper called "Good Times", Z mentions the phrase Good Times in one of his letters. In the artwork of the Good Times magazine, the G and T frightenly resemble the zodiac symbol.
10. The publishing office of Good Times magazine is right next to victime Paul Stines home.

Now I'm not saying the evidence is ironclad against Gyke, but at this moment he remains the best and most intriguing suspect for Z.

Once again, love your analysis. I've read quite a bit from Tom Voigt's site about Gaikowski and I will admit, he seems like as good a candidate as I have heard of. The audio at Voigt's site of Gaikowski from the 80's and 90's is chilling to listen to. You can almost hear him saying "Goooooood Byyyyyyye" in that low rumble of a voice.

Not to belabour this but do you know when Gaikowski was interviewed by police? Was it duirng that era or was it near the end of his life ('06)? In your research of the case do you know if Gaikowski is still a POI, as far as law enforcement is concerned? I wonder who the informant was in Gyke's case. I always felt as though Cheney's story to police about ALA was personally motivated, it just fit too nicely. I feel bad for Toschi and Co. because I know they were desperate to solve this thing and it probably seemed like the best thing they had at the time.

A side note; I was on You Tube the other day and listening/watching clips about the case. I came across a clip of Michael Savage (never listened to 5 minutes of his show...just not my thing) but he had a guy one that was LE from a nearby Bay Area jurisdiction and he said that Z was still alive and lived up in the Valley (I'm assuming Napa) and was at the time 87 years old. I've been racking my brains...who on earth could he be referring to? Unless, he's talking about Mike Rodelli's "Mr. X". Any ideas?

I am partially familiar with yet heavily interested in the Zodiac mystery. I am not familiar with your suspect (I think) as I don’t recognize the name right off hand. I have no opinion one way or the other as to the likelihood of this guy being Z. However, the following is a series of comments you made in previous posts that I either disagree with, hadn't heard before, or don’t understand completly.

EDITED TO SAY: I just read your previous post, so ignore the Riverside & Lake Tahoe question



1. he was familiar with theatre and films (how many people knew about the play The Mikado back then?, much less the most dangerous game?)



I agree with you that the Zodiac killer has some familiarity with films & theater based on the numerous references, however I don’t see why you would think more people would be aware of a 19th Century musical nowadays? I would also expect that more people were familiar with The Most Dangerous Game 40 years ago as opposed to now.





4. Part of the counter culture movement


How do you define "counter culture movement". I highly doubt that the Zodiac killer was part of what is commonly described as “counter culture” i.e. “hippies”. The physical descriptions of Z from the late 60’s and early 70’s (the prime hippie era) are of a portly man with a paunchy belly wearing a crew cut and military style boots & windbreakers. I also highly doubt Z would be real keen on “free love” & equality. I think the available evidence points to a profile of a socially awkward man who was terrible with women, who felt socially inadequate yet turned it into a feeling of superiority and lived for the thrill of people being scared of him. If he was “counter culture” at all its because he had a strong anti-authority behavorial aspect to him.


15. Most likely still has Paul Stines shirt and his car keys.

This one I’m wondering what you mean here. You’re saying that Zodiac still probably is in possession of those items, right? I could see that as a possibility but I’m wondering how does that make your guy Zodiac?





Also Z;s killing pattern. How many people have made the assumption that Z was a sexual predator based on the fact that he killed the women not the men. When in reality it was most likely pure coincidence that the two men survived.


Those two men are extremely lucky they survived and Z had most definitely thought he killed the Lake Berryessa man, and almost certainly felt that Mike Mageau would never survive such an extreme attack. But is it your claim that Z was not a sexual predator? Do you think Z is responsible for the Riverside killing? How about the Lake Tahoe killing?



The funny thing is that so many people look at the costume as being a sadistic flourish by Z. Yet if you think about it, the costume is more practical than anything.



I disagree with your logic here 100%.




1. Remember that there was a surviving witness at the 2nd attack. Z probably thought it was prudent to wear a mask.



??? Remember, in your own words: “it was most likely pure coincidence that the two men survived”. So wearing a mask isn’t prudent when your intent, as the severity of your attack indicates, is to take lives and leave no witnesses. And the mask wasn’t for hiding his face from any surrounding witnesses because he only donned the mask as he approached the couple and put on his outfit.



2.The only thing really exotic about Z's costume was the Zodiac executioner hood with the Z symbol. Other than that, it's just sun glasses, boots, black overals and a work acket. The costume is not as exotic as you think. Survivor Bryan Hartnell treated Z like he was an ordinary robber. He didn;t seem any more frightened by the suit than in any other situation.


The “only thing really exotic” about a homemade executioner’s outfit??? That just strikes me as a funny comment. I strongly disagree with your attempting to downplay the significance of this costume. It meant everything to Z. Zodiac worshipped the fear & panic he struck in the hearts of people, as evidenced in all of his letters (asking people to wear buttons, the threats of killing schoolchildren, the threats of bombs, etc) and this costume was that same thinking on a more personal and intimate level. I’d wager Zodiac fantasized about all the fear he would strike and the killings he would do as he handcrafted the outfit. The main reason for that outfit was to heighten the fear of his victims and make himself feal even more powerful. Even if you disagree with me, you couldn’t possibly contend that an executioner’s hood was chosen for practicality and no other reason.





3. Why Z wore his symbol is an interesting topic of discussion. Few people knew what Z's symbol was. Hartnell didn;t recognize it. Z was attempting to kill both so it was pure luck that Hartnell survived to report Z's duds.


I personally thinks it was part homage to Count Zaroff and part bulls-eye. It had some significance to Z, you can take that to the bank.



7. Gaikowski wrote an article before the killings advocating the shooting of young couples in order to show solidarity for the counter culture movement.

Whoa!! Seriously?!?



8. Mike Mageau had said in an interview that Darlene McFerrin said "It's Richard!".

Another thing I had never heard. Wow. What’s the deal with Mike Mageau? I’ve heard a lot of conflicting information re: him and his statements.




10. The publishing office of Good Times magazine is right next to victim Paul Stines home.

I’ve always understood it that Paul Stine’s fair directly before Z was a street pick-up, as was Z, and so the common thought was that it was random because how could anyone possibly plan for a cab driver to have specific fares without setting them up in advance?

I'm conflicted on Z's costume.

If he wanted to conceal his identity, he only had to wear a ski mask or some other type of mask/hood thing that kept him from being recognized.

And the fact that he had his "logo" sewn onto it kinda makes me think his choice of facial concealment was an ego thing. Maybe not intended to strike terror into victims, but to reinforce his self importance in his own mind.

Here's some links to Z's "costume". How accurate do you guys think this is?

Every image of the Zodiac in costume seems to be based on this one:

http://www.chasingthefrog.com/reelfaces/zodiac/zdskch.jpg

This is someone's artwork.

http://serialkillercalendar.com/LARGELEFTBIOIMAGES/zodiac_killer_1.gif

A different sketch, althought I don't know what the inspiration for this is.

http://www.spacejunk.org/spacejunk/wp-content/images/movies/lbsfsketch.jpg

BTW, I'm a seamstress, and make everything from pillow cases to evening gowns. If Z's costume was anything like the one described in link #1, this guy barely had any sewing skills. He did the bare minimum, and it's a clumsy job. What's an important clue about his sewing is more that he had access to a sewing machine (unless this was hand sewn), rather than that he may have had any known sewing skills.

Also, when looking up Zodiac images in the search engine, it is amazing how many different people's photos come up with the caption describing them as "the zodiac killer". People sure do have a lot of opinions.

From a superficial read of the zodiac site posted earlier in this thread, Gaikowski would probably be my first suspect... but I am only a distant observer and have very little info, so take my opinions on his guilt with skepticism. I need to to study the case much more deeply to be certain of my suspicions.

http://www.zodiackiller.com/Suspects.html

This is the page on the site where I did a quick overview of the suspects presented, and came up with Gaikowski as my pick as most likely to be the perp.

I have noticed that Z constantly mispells Christmas with two SS on the end: Christmass. He mispells "commit" "loose" for lose, "victom" for victim, "nineth" for ninth, "drownding" for drowning, "triger" for trigger, "controol" for control, "doo" for do, "anilating" for annihilating, "buss" for bus, "woeman" for woman, "coupple" for couple, "howers" for hours, and so on.

What's the opinion of those following the case? Do they think he was playing dumb? Trying to throw out false clues? That he really could spell but was trying to conceal his intelligence?

I think it's weird thing for a guy who's interested in comlplicted ciphers to not even be able to spell a simple word such as christmas or lose.

And since he can't spell properly, is it possible that the other ciphers which are unsolved have been stymied through Z's lack of proper spelling. Making decoding a bit difficult.

Or, since I've already established to my own satisfaction, that this man has an enormous ego, could he have sent ciphers that weren't solveable because they actually didn't say anything and he got a kick out of controlling the cops by sending them on wild goose chases?

Another thought, this man was really into his disguise. Yet he was thought to be a part of the "counter culture movement" which we all sort of equate with the hippie movement. Is there any possibility that his crew cut, bookworm glasses, some what conformist look, was a charade/costume of sorts to keep him from being easily identified as part of the counter culture/hippie movement?

I have noticed that Z constantly mispells Christmas with two SS on the end: Christmass. He mispells "commit" "loose" for lose, "victom" for victim, "nineth" for ninth, "drownding" for drowning, "triger" for trigger, "controol" for control, "doo" for do, "anilating" for annihilating, "buss" for bus, "woeman" for woman, "coupple" for couple, "howers" for hours, and so on.

What's the opinion of those following the case?


I'm nowhere near as knowledgable as Mastermind or some of the other posters but I'll give my opines.


Do they think he was playing dumb? Trying to throw out false clues? That he really could spell but was trying to conceal his intelligence?

Yes. Yes. Yes.

These types of misspellings don't look consistent and they definitely aren't the common type of foreigner misspellings or an illiterate trying to spell phonetically. Besides, as you hint at elsewhere, Z conveyed a level of sophistication with the codes, his understanding of investigation techniques, as well as the crimes themselves, that doesn't jibe with these spelling errors.

You mean to tell me someone doesn't know there's a "u" in "hours" yet still knows that a silent "h" exists at the beginning? I don't buy it.


I think it's weird thing for a guy who's interested in comlplicted ciphers to not even be able to spell a simple word such as christmas or lose.

And since he can't spell properly, is it possible that the other ciphers which are unsolved have been stymied through Z's lack of proper spelling. Making decoding a bit difficult.

I think Z made a couple of misstakes in the codes and had either already spent so much time on them he didn't want to go back, might have lost his place in sucha complex code, or perhaps even didn't notice them immediately, so there are misspellings that way.



Or, since I've already established to my own satisfaction, that this man has an enormous ego, could he have sent ciphers that weren't solveable because they actually didn't say anything and he got a kick out of controlling the cops by sending them on wild goose chases?

Very definite possibility.

Another thought, this man was really into his disguise. Yet he was thought to be a part of the "counter culture movement" which we all sort of equate with the hippie movement. Is there any possibility that his crew cut, bookworm glasses, some what conformist look, was a charade/costume of sorts to keep him from being easily identified as part of the counter culture/hippie movement?

This I think is a highly unlikely scenario.

Thanks for your input, Corky.

BTW, I just realized that for someone critiquing the murderer's spelling, I couldn't spell the word "misspell" worth a darn! lol Maybe I ought to hit the spell check button once in a while...

I agree with you that the Zodiac killer has some familiarity with films & theater based on the numerous references, however I don’t see why you would think more people would be aware of a 19th Century musical nowadays? I would also expect that more people were familiar with The Most Dangerous Game 40 years ago as opposed to now.

People have access to internet, DVDs an You Tube, expanded college and high school art and film classes. Think of how many obscure things you can get knowledge of today with our advancements.

Heck, right now you can probably name me 7 movies and 12 plays and I can probably get back to you info on all of them within a day. If not get th screen play and the videos!

But back inthe 60s-70s, I's not as easy for someone to get exposed to obscure pieces of work as well as. Heck there weren't that many theatres showing

For Zodiac to have learned about the Mikado, he would have to have acted, readf or scene the play. I have to think someone with a advanced interest in old movies and theatre would have access to seeing that particular play, as well as the "Most Dangerous Game".

Heck, not even the FBI, police and cultured newspaper reporters registered that Z was referring to the most dangerous game!! And some of those guys were older than Z. And few of those people knew what the heck the Mikado was!

??? Remember, in your own words: “it was most likely pure coincidence that the two men survived”. So wearing a mask isn’t prudent when your intent, as the severity of your attack indicates, is to take lives and leave no witnesses. And the mask wasn’t for hiding his face from any surrounding witnesses because he only donned the mask as he approached the couple and put on his outfit.


1. Keep in mind that Z wore a mask to his only DAYLIGHT attack. The other 3 attacks took place at night. It's not just his victims he has to worry about identifying him. (Though, we don't really know what Z wore at Lake Herman Road :confused: , But he definitely didn;t wear his outfit at Blue Rock Springs).

2.Yes, he was planning on killing all his victims. But, he made a mistake and left a survivor unintentionally at

3. At Lake Berryessa, Z could not drive up to his victims like he did at the two previous spots. Z has to engage the victims while they were laying on an island. The outfit allowed Z to pretend he was a mugger and keep Hartnett and Shepherd from fleeing right away. Remember that Z brought rope with him. Z planned how this attack woudl work. He knew that couples came only during the daytime at Lake Berryessa. Z had to attack during the day or find another spot (if another one existed in a a different jursdiction, Z probably wanted to avoud killing in the same jursidiction as his last attacks)


This one I’m wondering what you mean here. You’re saying that Zodiac still probably is in possession of those items, right? I could see that as a possibility but I’m wondering how does that make your guy Zodiac?

I may have put that point in the wrong list, that should be part of the list of traits about Z, not reasons fr Gyke being Z.

Stine, was the only victim that Z took items from. Stine' s keys, pieces of his shirt and driver's license were missing from the scene.

This Depends on whether you believe that reporter Paul Avery received a bloody shirt with his Zodiac holloween card. If you believe he did, then it;s not a stretch to suggest that Z had kept those items in his house with the purpose of using them to prove his identity for future letters.

Perhaps if Z killed again, he would have mailed Stines car keys to one of the detectives.

Even today, these item may be sitting in some relatives basement, waiting to be discovered. I actually think this is how Z may ultimately be found. Some relative discovers Paul Stines drivers license among his dead uncle's things. :eek:

The “only thing really exotic” about a homemade executioner’s outfit??? That just strikes me as a funny comment. I strongly disagree with your attempting to downplay the significance of this costume. It meant everything to Z. Zodiac worshipped the fear & panic he struck in the hearts of people, as evidenced in all of his letters (asking people to wear buttons, the threats of killing schoolchildren, the threats of bombs, etc) and this costume was that same thinking on a more personal and intimate level. I’d wager Zodiac fantasized about all the fear he would strike and the killings he would do as he handcrafted the outfit. The main reason for that outfit was to heighten the fear of his victims and make himself feal even more powerful. Even if you disagree with me, you couldn’t possibly contend that an executioner’s hood was chosen for practicality and no other reason.

before I answer his, keep an open mind to this concept:

Only one person has ever seen this outfit, the half dead victim Bryan Hartnett. All that we know about the suit is based on a cartoonists depiction of Hartnell's memory

With that said,

1. We;re assuming that Z made the mask for this attack. But it's a very real possibility that Z used this mask because it was simply laying around. If Z is involved with theatre or movies, This "executioner's mask" may have been laying around in basement. The only thing Z may have added was his symbol.
In fact, it's possible the symbol was put there to hide something else that was on the front of it.

2. If Z was looking to frighten people, it didn;t work. Bryan Hartnell and Cecilia Shepard treated Z like he was an ordinary criminal looking to steal his car. Z didn;t seem to disagree with this notion either, he acted like all he wanted to do was rob them. Z did not look like an executioner or some demon to Hartnell.

3. Z is not the only criminal to use a get up like that. There actually was a robber somewhee in the midwest who used a black sack with glasses to rob people at gun point.

Terrorist groups like the IRA in the 60s used black sack like masks with sun glasses that were very similar to what Z wore.

Contrary to popular belief, the KKK wore sack like masks much more than bed sheet costumes when performing their attacks.

The only thing missing was a symbol on the front of their uniforms.

Z's outfit was not that unique.

I personally thinks it was part homage to Count Zaroff and part bulls-eye. It had some significance to Z, you can take that to the bank.

I've never really seen the movie, but did Count Zaroff wear an executioner's mask and a bib with the Z symbol in it?

Didn;t he just wear black body suit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastermind
8. Mike Mageau had said in an interview that Darlene McFerrin said "It's Richard!".


Another thing I had never heard. Wow. What’s the deal with Mike Mageau? I’ve heard a lot of conflicting information re: him and his statements.

I believe this is on the bonus material to Finchers 2 disc ZODIAC dvd set.
Mike Mageua makes a rare interview.

I’ve always understood it that Paul Stine’s fair directly before Z was a street pick-up, as was Z, and so the common thought was that it was random because how could anyone possibly plan for a cab driver to have specific fares without setting them up in advance?

I'm not necessarily saying that Gyke killed Stine because he knew him, but the fact that Gyke has a connection to Stine is important to note.

If it's a coincidence it's a very bizarre one. :eek:

BTW, Gyke also had a grudge against San Francisco taxi drivers. He wrote an article about it in his paper.

BTW, I'm a seamstress, and make everything from pillow cases to evening gowns. If Z's costume was anything like the one described in link #1, this guy barely had any sewing skills. He did the bare minimum, and it's a clumsy job. What's an important clue about his sewing is more that he had access to a sewing machine (unless this was hand sewn), rather than that he may have had any known sewing skills.

Z's sewing skills is indeed a subject to debate. A lot of Z's skills as a seemstress depends on how elaborate you think the Z costume is.

Again, Z's costume may be simply glasses, overalls, dusty jacket, a painted sack and sunglasses.

Batman he ain't.:D

I feel bad for Toschi and Co. because I know they were desperate to solve this thing and it probably seemed like the best thing they had at the time.

The tragedy of this case is that most of the police that investigated this case, where excellent investigators. Narlow, Nicolai, Armstrong, & Toschi were among the best in the area.

The real problem was that Toschi and Armstrong only arrived at the investigation after Z killed his last victim.

Originally Posted by Mastermind
4. Part of the counter culture movement



How do you define "counter culture movement". I highly doubt that the Zodiac killer was part of what is commonly described as “counter culture” i.e. “hippies”. The physical descriptions of Z from the late 60’s and early 70’s (the prime hippie era) are of a portly man with a paunchy belly wearing a crew cut and military style boots & windbreakers. I also highly doubt Z would be real keen on “free love” & equality. I think the available evidence points to a profile of a socially awkward man who was terrible with women, who felt socially inadequate yet turned it into a feeling of superiority and lived for the thrill of people being scared of him. If he was “counter culture” at all its because he had a strong anti-authority behavorial aspect to him.

1.Mostly the younger followers of the movement dressed that way. A lot of the older members of the movement dressed the way they did in the early 60s.

Gaikowski was heavily involved in the "hippie movement" and he dressed and looked lik he was a 50s throwback.

2. Your assuming that composit photo was how Z looked all the time. Z could easily have toned his appearance to look conservative. In fact, at Lake Berryessa, Hartnett noticed that a large amount of hair was exposed through the front of Z's mask. Z most likely did not have a crew cut at that attack. Unless he had a wig or toupee'.

3. Don;t you find it interesting that Z's victims were not prostitutes, blacks, minorities, hippies or drug addicts? That his victims (with the exception of Stine) were all clean cut, student 'Leave it to Beaver" types?"
Who would hate people like that but a counter culture person?

4. Z used several phrases and language from that. "Blue Meanies", "Do my thing", "get my rocks off" are all interesting phrases.

I think the thing people forget about Z is that he was not a teenager he was more of a 40 year old. Those type of people did not necessarily dress like the young people.

If he wanted to conceal his identity, he only had to wear a ski mask or some other type of mask/hood thing that kept him from being recognized.

1. Although it get's cold in the bay area, Ski masks are not necessarily something a non-criminal would necesarily have in his wardrobe.

2. Keep in mind that Z may have had to wear glasses. Glasses and the Ski mask may not have been optimal.

Whether Z wore eye glasses is a fascinating debate.

I’ve been thinking a lot about this lately. Specifically I've been pondering just how much importance one can place on the Mikado & Most Dangerous Game references in Z’s letters and what this ultimately tells us about Z. I checked The Mikado out from the library and listened to it (it’s great, btw) to see what I could hear.

Although I do believe Z was a person who enjoyed films, and perhaps theater as well, more than the average person, I think more importance should be placed, and we can learn more about Z, by examining exactly WHAT it was Z referenced.

For example: I think it means less that Z referenced a Gilbert & Sullivan operetta and the true significance is in what the operetta, and song, was all about. I don’t think the Mikado reference tells us he’s a theater fan so much as it tells us how he feels about himself and society. Add to it the fact that he keyed on THAT PARTICULAR song, however he may have found out about it, says quite a lot. First off, The Mikado, which I first became familiar with because the making of it is the subject of one of my favorite films: “Topsy-Turvy”, is a comic-opera in which one of the central figures is labeled “Lord High Executioner”. I imagine that must have intrigued Z, perhaps even subconsciously, a great deal. Secondly, the song from the Mikado Z referenced is sung by the Lord High Executioner and is intended to be a silly little song about his “little list” of possible victims to be executed. Knowing that it was used by a confirmed serial killer to taunt authorities and to frighten the public tends to dampen the silliness of the song, doesn’t it?

People have access to internet, DVDs an You Tube, expanded college and high school art and film classes. Think of how many obscure things you can get knowledge of today with our advancements.

Heck, right now you can probably name me 7 movies and 12 plays and I can probably get back to you info on all of them within a day. If not get th screen play and the videos!

But back inthe 60s-70s, I's not as easy for someone to get exposed to obscure pieces of work as well as. Heck there weren't that many theatres showing

Let's just get this out of the way...I guess you and I just disagree on this. I think the closer the time period is to the original source material, and considering the source material was popular in its day, the more I think the general populace will be familiar with it.
I also would contend that while there are without question vastly more and vastly superior resources for finding items of popular culture these days, 40 years ago there was much less popular culture to be located and found. So with less overall, there was less distraction, less clutter, and more of a generally populist familiarity with the “classics” of theater; Gilbert & Sullivan definitely residing in that category.


For Zodiac to have learned about the Mikado, he would have to have acted, readf or scene the play.I have to think someone with a advanced interest in old movies and theatre would have access to seeing that particular play, as well as the "Most Dangerous Game".

I don’t see your point here. I too think Z had a keen interest in movies, perhaps theater as well, but most definitely movies. However I don’t think he had to be a “theater nut”, nor an actor, nor a stage hand, nor any of the like. For Z to become familiar with The Most Dangerous Game all he had to do was have the same 8th grade English course as I did, when we read and wrote about it for a class assignment.

It’s the very same principal with “The Mikado” I listed above, its not so much that Z had to be an old film enthusiast to know about Most Dangerous Game, its just that when Z DID find out about it, he took it as a personal inspiration and motif. Something about hunting humans appealed to his twisted individual and he sought to emulate the main character, Colonel Zaroff. Now, admittedly, that is all conjecture on my part and there’s no way in Hell of proving any of my theories but I don’t think Z’s familiarity with The Most Dangerous Game is as important as the fact that he mentions it at all.


Heck, not even the FBI, police and cultured newspaper reporters registered that Z was referring to the most dangerous game!! And some of those guys were older than Z. And few of those people knew what the heck the Mikado was!

I don’t buy that. I’m sorry, I just can’t believe that a select few “FBI, police, and cultured newspaper reporters” were unfamiliar with these references. A lot of times I come across arrogant ((or at least that’s what that cotton-headed ninnymuggins “crystaldawn” says)), so please don’t take it personally…I’m not calling you a liar. I just think you’re wrong in your assertion that not one investigative agency, not the reporters nor any of the authorities, noticed the Most Dangerous Game reference.


That doesn’t ring true for me. If it is true, as improbable as it seems to me, who let them in on the secret? How do you know this? How do you know how many of the “FBI, police, and cultured newspaper reporters” didn’t know what the Mikado was? I’m not as familiar with all of the aspects of the Z mystery as you are so maybe you can point me to the list of who knew what when, of who figured out what when, and how they finally figured out what Z was referring to. I’m being totally serious.


But I don’t want to get sidetracked…you think more people knowadays know about these things and I think more people knew of them back then….no big whoop, we disagree.


What do you think of my assertion that the material referenced is of more relevant significance than how Z became aware of said material?


before I answer his, keep an open mind to this concept:

Only one person has ever seen this outfit, the half dead victim Bryan Hartnett. All that we know about the suit is based on a cartoonists depiction of Hartnell's memory

With that said,

1. We;re assuming that Z made the mask for this attack.



Yes we are and, yes, I do believe he did make the mask up specially.



But it's a very real possibility that Z used this mask because it was simply laying around. If Z is involved with theatre or movies, This "executioner's mask" may have been laying around in basement. The only thing Z may have added was his symbol.
In fact, it's possible the symbol was put there to hide something else that was on the front of it.


All possible…but, in my opinion, highly improbable. Are you placing quotation marks around “executioner’s mask” in order to use the term in the perjorative? Did Bryan Hartnell use that term to describe it the mask? If so, we can stop right there. I ask because I am operating on the assumption that the popular notion of how Z looked that day, the drawing and the executioner’s hood, had Bryan hartnell’s “seal of approval” (for lack of a better term). As you mentioned, the drawing is based off of the surviving witnesses account of it. So why then would we discredit it and begin to speculate that it may have resembled a sack? If that’s the way BH described it to an artist then I’m going to trust his opinion and not invent scenarios where he could be wrong about his description.

2. If Z was looking to frighten people, it didn;t work.
Says you. My “women’s intuition” says both victims were frightened by a man with an executioner’s hood pointing a gun at them hog tying them, and telling them he’s an escaped killer

Bryan Hartnell and Cecilia Shepard treated Z like he was an ordinary criminal looking to steal his car.

Good for them. I mean that sincerely, not being flippant or coy or nothing of the sort. BH kept his wits about him and tried to reason and talk to the guy. He was trying to survive and get the situation over as easily as he could. But to assert that this in any way suggests they weren’t scared is ridiculous.


Z didn;t seem to disagree with this notion either, he acted like all he wanted to do was rob them.
I assume you mean before his violent attempt to stab them both to death.
This part of your theory is really hard to grasp. I think, if I remember correctly, it spun out of my assertion that Z had definitely meant to strike fear into his victims by donning his executioner’s outfit thereby enhancing his enjoyment of his kill. An assertion I advanced due to my disbelief that what Z was wearing that day was, as you contend, nothing out of the ordinary and more a function of necessity than anything else. You contend that it was just a precaution that he wore a mask and executioner’s hood with a zodiac emblem solely because it was a daytime attack and he could be seen and possibly later identified. You think the get-up was more modus operandi than signature, while I disagree and think the exact opposite.

You think that he brought along a mask to hide his identity from possible surviving witnesses even though he had no intention of leaving any surviving victims and never donned the mask until he approached the couple. He was seen by numerous boaters and visitors to the lake that day, sans executioner’s hood. You also contend that because Bryan Hartnell tried to react calmly and give Z what he wanted that somehow meant that BH & CS were never afraid of Z and that, in a leap of logic I find impossible to make, it somehow renders Z’s outfit that day of no relevance. See I don’t get that. Even if I were to buy into the thought that they were never once scared of Z when he was coming toward them dressed as an executioner with a gun pointed at them, it still doesn’t mean that the outfit was of no relevance to Zodiac. It was of utmost importance to him that his victims be scared for as long as possible so he could play with them and enjoy it so much more.


3. Z is not the only criminal to use a get up like that. There actually was a robber somewhee in the midwest who used a black sack with glasses to rob people at gun point.

Terrorist groups like the IRA in the 60s used black sack like masks with sun glasses that were very similar to what Z wore.

Contrary to popular belief, the KKK wore sack like masks much more than bed sheet costumes when performing their attacks.
This is exactly what I’m saying…you just gave 3 examples of masks that were more a function of style over practicality, “signature” over “m.o.”, that had more to do with instilling fear than hiding identity.


Z's outfit was not that unique.
I just don’t see how you can say that. (Based on the assumption that the famous cartoon is a direct interpretation of Bryan Hartnell’s recollection and he confirmed that it was accurate)


I've never really seen the movie, but did Count Zaroff wear an executioner's mask and a bib with the Z symbol in it?

No.


Didn’t he just wear black body suit?

Yes

Corky, a lot of what you are arguing is trivial, and actually doesn;t have anything to do with the case.

The ultimate point i'm making are one's you already agree with:

1. Z's costume had a practical purpose first, then he elaborated it to become a fetish.

2. He needed to wear a disguise at Lake Berryessa because it was a broad daylight attack. He also had to avoid being recognized since last time he had a survivor. He didn;t wear a mask at the second killing because he had no survivors at the first one. He didn't wear one in San Fran because it would have been impractical to wear one to kill a cab driver.

2. Z knows more about theatre and old movies than the average individual. Period. Nuff said.

3. Z approached the Lake Berryessa attack from the perspective of a robber mugging a young couple.

4. The only thing elaborate about Z's costume is the cowl.

What do you think of my assertion that the material referenced is of more relevant significance than how Z became aware of said material?

Z also spoke of raidans and Mt Diablo being the key to discovering his identity. He wrote elaborate codes that he said that his name was hidden in.

I think the material is more of Z's games.

I don;t think reading the Miyako, listening to Gilbert & Sullivan or watching the Most Dangerous Game is going to reveal Z's identity anymore than deciphering the "MY NAME IS CODE" will.

Corky, a lot of what you are arguing is trivial, and actually doesn;t have anything to do with the case.


2. He needed to wear a disguise at Lake Berryessa because it was a broad daylight attack. He also had to avoid being recognized since last time he had a survivor. He didn;t wear a mask at the second killing because he had no survivors at the first one. He didn't wear one in San Fran because it would have been impractical to wear one to kill a cab driver.

Agreed @ the 1st point. I would say that I am less interested in interpreting the evidence as a means towards "solving" what happened. I am much more interested in trying to interpret the evidence and sussing out what it tells us about Z himself. I guess I'd rather try and profile than crack the case.




I think the material is more of Z's games.

I don;t think reading the Miyako, listening to Gilbert & Sullivan or watching the Most Dangerous Game is going to reveal Z's identity anymore than deciphering the "MY NAME IS CODE" will.


Mastermind, I was probably unclear. I don't think the Mikado reference is vitally crucial to telling us who he is, rather its a very strong indicator of "what he's all about", of what makes him tick. Again, I was asking if you felt it was a helpful bit of information in profiling Zodiac, not if it was helpful towards finding out his identity.

I think Z fixated on that play once he learned there was a character in it called Lord High Executioner. I think he thrilled with excitement to hear the chorus sing "Deferrrr...deferrrrr...to the Lord High Executioner". I think he swelled with pride to be able to taunt the police with his adaptation of the "I've Got A Little List" song, to think humorously about the scores of people who he felt were beneath him and were contemptuous enough to merit their murder at his hands. Many things creep me out about Zodiac and this is one of the biggies.


While digging around for some info on this here newfangled inter-web, I came across this:

I havent fully read this page but it looks interesting (http://labyrinth13.com/Zfiles_Mikado.htm)

Agreed @ the 1st point. I would say that I am less interested in interpreting the evidence as a means towards "solving" what happened. I am much more interested in trying to interpret the evidence and sussing out what it tells us about Z himself. I guess I'd rather try and profile than crack the case.

1. One of the big reasons i believe that Z has not been captured is that a lot of the profiling done on Z has been inaccurate. Especially the one that says that Z's crimes were of a sexual nature and hence that was why he left the males alive. That notion has been going around for years, yet it has absolutely no base to it. The males survived out of pure luck (or because Z didn't wear his glasses. ;) That may especially be true at Lake Berryessa! )

2. One of the things you have to be careful of in profiling a case like this, is that a lot of the evidence in this case may be false. Especially when it comes to Z's letters, in which Z lied constantly and boasted about things he never did.

This is especially the case in Z's bogus cry for help in his Melvin Belli letter.

What do we make of this? What do you think could possibly be meant by DNA evidence tying her to the case?

Saturday's Contra Costa Times (http://www.contracostatimes.com/search/ci_12589866?IADID=Search-www.contracostatimes.com-www.contracostatimes.com)

What do we make of this? What do you think could possibly be meant by DNA evidence tying her to the case?

Saturday's Contra Costa Times (http://www.contracostatimes.com/search/ci_12589866?IADID=Search-www.contracostatimes.com-www.contracostatimes.com)

If, as she claims, she helped write some of the letters that her father mailed, perhaps she licked the envelope they were mailed in. Or possibly touch DNA analysis found excess skin DNA that she or her father shed (since her DNA would match up to his much more closely than to some other random person).

I thought ALA had been excluded as a suspect since 2002 because his DNA didn't match the partial DNA found sealing the letters and under the stamps?

I agree the evidence clears ALA as being Zodiac.

Being cleared by the police is not really a get out of jail free card

It just means that the police aren't actively pursuing you.

I'm a firm believer that you shouldn't just toss someone
out from sight and sound just because he's been cleared.

There are a lot of reasons why I still consider ALA a POI.

1. There is a strong belief among many Z investigators that ALA
was about to or had become a copycat killer. It is not
without the realm of possibility that ALA may have killed
some of those possible Z victims like the Domingoes-.
Though remote it's also possible that ALA may have committed
some of the murders that Z was responsible for.

2. I have a very strong belief that ALA may have met or known
who Z was. Instead of exposing him ALA may have decided to pretend to \
be Z.

3. ALA has a connection to Z victime Darlene McFerrin. Studying ALAs life
could

4. The whole Zodiac watch thing is a bizzare coincidence, since the watch was
a gift froim his mother. Way before the Z killings.

5. I'm still trying to figure out what ALA was going to do
with all those guns and explosives in his trailer!

6. The theory that Don Cheney gave as to why ALA became Z (private detective agency) is an
interesting one and actual gives a template to Z's motives.

I agree the evidence clears ALA as being Zodiac.

Being cleared by the police is not really a get out of jail free card

It just means that the police aren't actively pursuing you.

I'm a firm believer that you shouldn't just toss someone
out from sight and sound just because he's been cleared.

There are a lot of reasons why I still consider ALA a POI.

1. There is a strong belief among many Z investigators that ALA
was about to or had become a copycat killer. It is not
without the realm of possibility that ALA may have killed
some of those possible Z victims like the Domingoes-.
Though remote it's also possible that ALA may have committed
some of the murders that Z was responsible for.

2. I have a very strong belief that ALA may have met or known
who Z was. Instead of exposing him ALA may have decided to pretend to \
be Z.

3. ALA has a connection to Z victime Darlene McFerrin. Studying ALAs life
could

4. The whole Zodiac watch thing is a bizzare coincidence, since the watch was
a gift froim his mother. Way before the Z killings.

5. I'm still trying to figure out what ALA was going to do
with all those guns and explosives in his trailer!

6. The theory that Don Cheney gave as to why ALA became Z (private detective agency) is an
interesting one and actual gives a template to Z's motives.

Wow, I had no idea there was Zodiac forum on here. I was a Criminal Justice major in college and for one of my classes, the professor assigned you a CJ related crime/event for the final to write a 20 page paper on it. I was assigned the Zodiac case.

I have always thought that Arthur Leigh Allen was the Zodiac or at least he is my favorite suspect. I know that certain evidence has cleared him but there's so much circumstantial evidence against him. The stories he told people about killing children, the explosives in his house, the knives with "chickens blood" on them, the story he told Don Chaney. Mike Mageau also identified Allen as the man who shot him and added that the reason he had never been able to identify him is that he was never shown photos of suspects.

The DNA on the stamp, in my opinion, could have been licked by anyone. The Zodiac could have asked some random person to lick it for him claiming he could not do so himself. As goofy as that sounds, it would make sense a to why the DNA on the stamp has never been matched to anyone. Do we know if the DNA on each and every stamp is the same DNA?

The DNA on the stamp, in my opinion, could have been licked by anyone. The Zodiac could have asked some random person to lick it for him claiming he could not do so himself

Several people have considered that possibility, but then that would indicate that Zodiac has an accomplice. That idea in and of itself isn't that far-fetched.

They tested the Don Chaney for DNA he came up negative.

Many people have wondered if Zodiac victim Paul Stine may have been Z's accomplice at one point. This has always interested me, because Paul Stine and Arthur Leigh Allen share some strange similarities.

Don;t know how one would go about testing Paul Stine.

Do we know if the DNA on each and every stamp is the same DNA?

I have to get back to you on that one. I think somewhere on zodicakiller.com there was some detailed explanation of the DNA consistency.

Mike Mageau also identified Allen as the man who shot him and added that the reason he had never been able to identify him is that he was never shown photos of suspects.

I don;t know If you ever get a chance, watch a clip of Mike Mageau when he was interviewd for the special features for the movie Zodiac. It might be on "the site that shall not be mentioned".

Several people have considered that possibility, but then that would indicate that Zodiac has an accomplice. That idea in and of itself isn't that far-fetched.

What I meant by that is, Zodiac has the letter and stamp ready to be mailed and goes to the post office or local mailbox to drop it off and asks some random passerby if they wouldn't mind licking the stamp or moisturizing it somehow. He could make up any number of reasons for why he cant do it. He could tell them that the taste of the stamp makes him sick to his stomach or something goofy like that. As long as he asked a different person everytime, it wouldn't seem that out of the ordinary to anyone that some stranger needs help mailing a letter. It wouldn't necessarily mean that he has an accomplice.

I don;t know If you ever get a chance, watch a clip of Mike Mageau when he was interviewd for the special features for the movie Zodiac. It might be on "the site that shall not be mentioned".

What does he say?

Many people have wondered if Zodiac victim Paul Stine may have been Z's accomplice at one point. This has always interested me, because Paul Stine and Arthur Leigh Allen share some strange similarities.

That's the first I've heard of this. Where else has this been discussed?

Why would anyone brag about something like that in the first place?? :confused:

As yuppielawyer stated so well, she was probably a con artist or someone who is a few fries short of a happy meal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastermind
Several people have considered that possibility, but then that would indicate that Zodiac has an accomplice. That idea in and of itself isn't that far-fetched.

What I meant by that is, Zodiac has the letter and stamp ready to be mailed and goes to the post office or local mailbox to drop it off and asks some random passerby if they wouldn't mind licking the stamp or moisturizing it somehow. He could make up any number of reasons for why he cant do it. He could tell them that the taste of the stamp makes him sick to his stomach or something goofy like that. As long as he asked a different person everytime, it wouldn't seem that out of the ordinary to anyone that some stranger needs help mailing a letter. It wouldn't necessarily mean that he has an accomplice.

Arthur Leigh Allen has allegedly hated the taste of glue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastermind
I don;t know If you ever get a chance, watch a clip of Mike Mageau when he was interviewd for the special features for the movie Zodiac. It might be on "the site that shall not be mentioned".

What does he say?

It's not so much what he says as it is the condition he is in.

Sad to say, Mike Mageaux is not "all there..".:(

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastermind
Many people have wondered if Zodiac victim Paul Stine may have been Z's accomplice at one point. This has always interested me, because Paul Stine and Arthur Leigh Allen share some strange similarities.

That's the first I've heard of this. Where else has this been discussed?

Check Zodiackiller.com's profile on Arthur Leigh Allen and Paul Stine.

I believe both Paul Stine and Arthur Leigh Allen may have been hospitalized at the same mental facility. Don;t quote me on that, though. Let me read the article again to make sure.

Mastermind, have you ever read this... http://shanehazen.blogspot.com/2007/11/licked-before-they-start.html


The scene at the end of Zodiac where Graysmith and Tosche are talking in the diner was a last minute replacement scene. The link I provided for you was to be the original scene. Take a look at that and let me know what you think.

Mastermind, have you ever read this... http://shanehazen.blogspot.com/2007/...hey-start.html


The scene at the end of Zodiac where Graysmith and Tosche are talking in the diner was a last minute replacement scene. The link I provided for you was to be the original scene. Take a look at that and let me know what you think.

Thanks a lot, hambone. This is the first I knew of this scene from the movie. A shame they couldn;t have used it somewhere in the movie.

It appears to be a mix of some of Graysmith's theories from Zodiac Unmasked.

The "Robert Emmet the Hippie" solution to the "My name is" cipher has thrown around a lot.

Thanks a lot, hambone. This is the first I knew of this scene from the movie. A shame they couldn;t have used it somewhere in the movie.

It appears to be a mix of some of Graysmith's theories from Zodiac Unmasked.

The "Robert Emmet the Hippie" solution to the "My name is" cipher has thrown around a lot.

I agree. Don't get me wrong, I loved David Fincher's Zodiac and the diner scene at the end with Graysmith and Toschi but this would have been a perfect scene to follow up with it. Especially considering that its true.

There is just way too much circumstantial evidence that points toward Arthur Leigh Allen.

I agree. Don't get me wrong, I loved David Fincher's Zodiac and the diner scene at the end with Graysmith and Toschi but this would have been a perfect scene to follow up with it. Especially considering that its true.

Zodiac is the best movie ever done about serial killers. IMHO.

You have to get your hands on the 2 disc set with the real interviews. It has a lot of great interviews with some of the people involved. Both surviving victims are interviewed. A lot of the original detectives. Graysmith is also interviewd. Lots of good information (you may be able to find some of it on you know where)

It;s worth it just for Mike Mageaux's interview.


There is just way too much circumstantial evidence that points toward Arthur Leigh Allen.

Preaching to the choir. Allen is still my #2 suspect behind Richard Gaikowski.
The DNA evidence though is tough to ignore.

Allen has some connection to Zodiac.

1. Several people have hypothesized that Allen knew Zodiac and knew he was a serial killer. Possibly rather than rat out Z, Allen decided to play Z and see if he can take the credit without completely incriminating himself.
Allen was a homosexual, he may have been Z's lover. Allen did spend time in both mental facilities and military installations. Great places to meet and run into a guy like Z.

2. The theory I adhere to is that Allen was a copycat. That Allen may have not only penned a few Z letters, but may be responsible solely for one of the murders. Perhaps that;s why the Stine murder is so out of place.

3. An interesting theory is that Z stole Allen's idea. That Z was someone listening in on one of Allen;s rants and just took the idea to heart before Allen could implement it. Allen could have been furious and wanted to claims stake to the idea.

Preaching to the choir. Allen is still my #2 suspect behind Richard Gaikowski.
The DNA evidence though is tough to ignore.

You may have already covered this, but why is your #1 suspect Richard Gaikowski?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastermind
Preaching to the choir. Allen is still my #2 suspect behind Richard Gaikowski.
The DNA evidence though is tough to ignore.

You may have already covered this, but why is your #1 suspect Richard Gaikowski?

Most of this is based on Tom Voigt's research.

1. Richard Gaikowski was interviewed by FBI back in the 70s(or was it the 80s???) as being a potential Zodiac suspect. This was based on an informer who had bizzare conversations with Gaikowski regarding Zodiac. It;s too long for me to explain why..you have to look on the internet or on zodiackiller.com to find about it and why the FBI was so interested.

2. Richard Gaikowski's mug shot is a dead ringer for the zodiac composite sketch at Presidio Heights, San Francisco.

3. Richard Gaikowski wrote an article advocating that people shoot college students as a form of revolutionary action.

4. Richard Gaikowski also wrote articles against cab drivers in San Francisco

5. The switchboard for Richard Gaikowski's newspaper is practically next door to Zodiac victim Paul Stine's residence.

6. Richard Gaikowski's occupation as a newspaper writer fits in with Zodica's obsession with area newspapers and local reporters and news personalities. Zodiacs spiteful writing and 'diahrea of the hand" fit in with the profile newspaper editorialist.

7. The word G-Y-K-E can be found in the middle of one of the zodiac codes. Gyke was a known nickname that Gaikowski had used in a few written correspondances.

8. Nancy Slover who was the switchboard operator who received the Zodiac call at the 2nd incident at Blue Rocks Spring believes that Gaikowski's voice is the closest to Z(though surviving victim Bryan Hartnell does not concur. Hartnell had to hear Z's voice through a mask though..)

9. Gaikowski was hospitalized for mental problems during the time of the Zodiac killings. Gaikowski also is believed to have had some questions regarding his sexuality.

There are other reasons which I am forgetting I'll post back. :(

You have to get your hands on the 2 disc set with the real interviews. It has a lot of great interviews with some of the people involved. Both surviving victims are interviewed. A lot of the original detectives. Graysmith is also interviewd. Lots of good information (you may be able to find some of it on you know where)

Mastermind, I finally bought the 2 disc special edition of Zodiac and I was watching the special features when I saw Graysmith interviewed. He said that when they first tested ALA's DNA, it was a match, but when they went back and tested it again, it wasn't a match. I had never heard this before. Have you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastermind
You have to get your hands on the 2 disc set with the real interviews. It has a lot of great interviews with some of the people involved. Both surviving victims are interviewed. A lot of the original detectives. Graysmith is also interviewd. Lots of good information (you may be able to find some of it on you know where)

Mastermind, I finally bought the 2 disc special edition of Zodiac and I was watching the special features when I saw Graysmith interviewed. He said that when they first tested ALA's DNA, it was a match, but when they went back and tested it again, it wasn't a match. I had never heard this before. Have you?

Yes. It's a long technical reason that I;m not quite sure I understand myself.(failed too many bio classes. :p )

The long and short is that the first test was innacurate.