Who were the witnesses that you most believed and didnt believe when they were being interviewed.

Well the ones I didn't believe right off were Chad Noe, Stephen Marfeo, Mark Nichols and Jule Caylor. Also the guy in law enforcement interviewed in the Tommy Burket segment.

Hmm there are a lot of witnesses that I did believe. One that stands out that some people may not agree with me on is Cecelia Newball's husband. He seemed genuine and I think she left willingly or met with foul play but I don't think he was involved.

One that stands out that some people may not agree with me on is Cecelia Newball's husband. He seemed genuine and I think she left willingly or met with foul play but I don't think he was involved.

I completely agree with you on that.

I know he's not a witness, but I 100% believe Tommy Zeigler.

Oh wow, UM has interviewed a lot of people over the years that I thought were lying.

Most obvious liars: CD mentioned most of them but I agree with her assessments of Chad Noe (and his family), Stephen Marfeo, Mark Nichols and Jule Caylor.

A few others I didn't believe were Larry Gibson and his wife, Sam Patel, Franklin Delano Floyd, G. Daniel Walker (seemed like he was playing mind games with the interviewer), Paul "I like a clean house" Polis and his whole family, Jerry "circlestantive evidence" Strickland, Glen Consagra, John Branion, Bob Hall, Stuart Heaton, Paul Ferrell, Judy Groezinger, "Katie" (although I wouldn't lump her in there with the criminals and scumbags, she was just an outright fraud), that government official who said there was no gold in Victoria Peak and that the government didn't take it, Chip Ricard.

Some people I believed wholeheartedly: Doyle Wheeler, Patricia Stallings and her husband, Johnny Lee Wilson, Michael Self, Luis Diaz, Tony Miller.

I obviously do not believe the people I think are guilty on the final appeals.

A strong one yet to be added to the scumbag list is Donnie Hansen.

I think we can add Jeff Olberholzer (probably spelt that wrong) to the list of believeable people. I think Sarah Powell believes she was held at gunpoint but there are doubts as to weather it actually happened. Andre Jones' father seemed pretty real to me.

And finally, all the UFO and Ghost people. Some are believeable whilst others simply aren't.

Paul "I like a clean house" Polis and his whole family

Hey, thanks a lot! lol :lol:

I believed the Dawaloby family and did not like the main investigstor.

I did not like any of the Polis family or her hubby. Her hubby was kinda gross but the mom was of Charlotte was a bit of an odd duck as well.

Chad Noe was full of crap.

The whole Wheeler family....what can you say about them?

I dont remember Chad Noe or Marc Nichols, would anyone possibly remember what the name of their segments were called?

People I thought sounded the most truthful the Cowboys from the Entity, the fisherman from the Cadborosaurus piece,and the Tatum's. People that stick in my mind the most as the least truthful the Tallman's,Colleen Ritter,the family from Lake Wales,and most defintly the flippers from England.

Hi all. I came to post Mark Nichols, suprise suprise he's already been posted by several! Stephen Marfeo creeped me out, I always thought he had this obsessed look in his eyes, which explained a lot once he killed himself after that crazy double murder. Jenny Pratt's (the 2X4 attack) boyfriend was completely transparent and shady.

Chad Noe was an unfortunate interview. It's painful to watch someone who is both lying and unintelligent.

I dont remember Chad Noe or Marc Nichols, would anyone possibly remember what the name of their segments were called?



The segment with Mark Nichols on it was about his wife Christi Nichols disappearance. Chad Noe's segment was about his ex who went missing along with the ex's daughter and sister-in-law. Their names were Wendy Camp, Cynthia Britto and Lisa Kregear.

Chip Ricard

Holy Macadamia Nut! I completely forgot about Chip Ricard and his "They were doing all kinds of satanic stuff" interview.

The man whose mother went to the casino and disapeared - he had that weird hairstyle - I always thought something weird and dishonest about him;
Larry Gibson and his wife (ugh!)

They've been mentioned previously, but I believed Doyle Wheeler and Jeff Oberholtzer from the start, as well as Curtis Heck, Tommy Zaino (I don't really buy the satanic cult angle, but I do believe David Berkowitz didn't act alone), and the state trooper in the Kathy Bonderson case in his assessment of what happened that night (as opposed to the county officer's). The most unbelievable person in the history of UM, IMO, is Don Dixon. I'm 99.9% certain that entire story about happening upon Eric Tamiyasu's body is a total crock.

The segment with Mark Nichols on it was about his wife Christi Nichols disappearance. Chad Noe's segment was about his ex who went missing along with the ex's daughter and sister-in-law. Their names were Wendy Camp, Cynthia Britto and Lisa Kregear.

Thank you kindly.

The most unbelievable person in the history of UM, IMO, is Don Dixon. I'm 99.9% certain that entire story about happening upon Eric Tamiyasu's body is a total crock.

Man no kidding I forgot that creep.

I believe Tommy Zeigler, Doyle Wheeler, Jeff Oberholtzer, Johnny Lee Wilson, Rolando Cruz, Luis Diaz, North Dakota State Trooper William Byram (Kathy Bonderson case) to name a few.

I do not believe, Mark Nichols, Chad Noe and his entire slimeball family, Jule Caylor, Ed Walters and his whole gang of UFO 'sight seers' Paul Pollis, Jim Harrison, Steve (that dude whose wife disappeared in Texas) Even though they did not appear on camera, Rob Bonderson, Rob Page, Michael Haim.

I must say the one eyewitness I did not believe was in the Brad Bishop case. The former co-worker of his who then claimed to run into him in Italy. The story was just too unbelievable to me. He happens to run into him all angry on his way out of work that day and gets him a cab and then 2 years later runs into him in a bathroom in Italy? Sorry didn't buy it. He seemed to be one of those people who put them into stories. Just my opinion of course.

Well, personally, it would not surprise me if the co-worker did see Brad Bishop or at least thought he saw him. I do not think this co-worker would have any reason to purposely lie. Whether or not he actually saw Brad Bishop is another story but I think the co-worker honestly believes he did see him. Ironically enough, a lot of the sightings of Bishop have been by people who knew him. In 1978 he was seen in Stockholm, Sweden by a family friend. In 1979 the co-worker claimed he saw Bishop in Sorrento, Italy and in 1994 a former neighbor claimed they saw Bishop on a train platform in Switzerland. Bishop did love Italy and in fact spoke Italian I believe. I tend to believe that Bishop is still alive and is probably living somewhere in Europe.

I forgot about Leonard Rizzo! That creep is still free and four people's bones were found in his freakin' back yard! How much evidence is needed? It boggles my mind.

I'll second on believing the Dowalibys. David Dowaliby suffered a miscarriage of justice so gross it's hard to watch the segment sometimes. Speaking of MOJ, I always believed Paul Freshour was 100% innocent of any wrongdoing in the Circleville Writer case.

I do not believe:

Kurtis Croft (He knew far more than he was willing to share with police. I think it's incredibly obvious.)

Cecilia Fish (I think she also knew a lot more than she was willing to share about Jeremy Bright's murder, but only after having read some more about the case. I haven't decided if I believe the "bloody shirt" story or not.)

Tom McFall's theory about his son's death being linked to a murderous cult (I feel terrible for his loss, but I personally believe Kurt's death was accidental.)

The snuff film allegations in the Rachel Runyan case. (I believe she was abuducted and murdered, but am extremely skeptical of that theory.)

The theories about Chad Langford and Justin Burgwinkel's "undercover work" or "secret missions".



I think most of us agree Cindy Anderson's father had a strange demeanor during the interview, which is suspcious, but I don't believe he had anything to do with her disappearance.

In retrospect, it's sickening to watch Chuck Dixon praising Kevin Hughes for his "fairness" in the latter's segment, when it was revealed later that Dixon was in fact at the center of Hughes' murder. :mad:

I forgot about Leonard Rizzo! That creep is still free and four people's bones were found in his freakin' back yard! How much evidence is needed? It boggles my mind.

Not only were there lots of bones found in Leonard Rizzo's back yard, but DNA testing confirmed that the missing wife, Monika Rizzo, was found among those bones, in 3" and smaller fragments, most likely having been put through a woodchipper, yet "the San Antonio District Attorney still lacks enough evidence to file charges."

WTH? Her dead body is chopped up into pieces, intermingled with other dead bodies, and all dumped in the suspect's back yard, but the DA doesn't have enough evidence to file charges? They even found a bag of human flesh in his yard! Holy crap! (And IIRC, there were bones of a human hand in his BBQ grill.)

Basically, Leonard Rizzo is sitting there with his wife's murdered body in his lap pointing a "guilty" finger at him, and there's not enough evidence to file charges?

If having multiple murdered bodies in your possession isn't enough to get your ass arrested, I'd like to know exactly what kind of crime you have to commit in San Antonio before the DA will start looking in your direction. Geez, this guy is a Jeffrey Dahmer or a John Wayne Gacy. Exact same circumstances concerning the location of bodies. Unbelievable.

I dont know, I personally think Chad Lankford was involved in something that was undercover. It just seems like there is more evidence there to show that. I tend to doubt he committed suicide. However the military does have a track record of covering up things like this. Burgwinkel I tend to have more doubts about. I am not sure what was up with him, I do not know if he had a nervous breakdown and wanted to get away from the service or what happened to him. I mean, his car being parked at some out of the way location. Who knows?

I dont know, I personally think Chad Lankford was involved in something that was undercover. It just seems like there is more evidence there to show that. I tend to doubt he committed suicide. However the military does have a track record of covering up things like this. Burgwinkel I tend to have more doubts about. I am not sure what was up with him, I do not know if he had a nervous breakdown and wanted to get away from the service or what happened to him. I mean, his car being parked at some out of the way location. Who knows?

I don't intend to speak ill of the dead, but I strongly feel SPC Langford was probably involved in illegal activities, as speculated in the segment. Nonetheless, CID did some pretty questionable things in the investigation, and I totally disagree with the suicide theory; I definitely think he was murdered. The Army is a cross-section of American society. It has its small-time crooks, dealers, and thugs---as a matter of fact, it's still a problem, especially amongst the junior enlisted.

A garrison MP who routinely works patrols (as on the night of his death) doesn't seem a likely candidate for undercover narcotics work. Generally (I emphasize generally, however), police do not work both undercover and patrols---they're assigned to one or the other, in order to keep from being possibly recognized as an officer. This would be especially important on a military base, which is significantly smaller than a municipality (and Red Stone Arsenal is a relatively small post).

Didn't Langford change his MOS to MP only after coming to Red Stone Arsenal? That's the way it seemed to be implied in the segment, but I don't know this for certain. If that is in fact the case, though, I do not see a newly qualified MP soon going into undercover work before he or she has had a significant amount of patrol time under the belt.

How does the military have a track record of covering up suspicious deaths? Just curious as to your reasoning.

I think SPC Burgwinkel was also involved in criminal activities, and attempted to make the situation seem like "undercover work" (which he wasn't very good at, IMO). It's common for some young enlisted to create stories about their duties or accomplishments. I call it the "Ranger complex." It happens in all services and branches, from the Army to the Air Force, from infantry to intel. The behaviors range from wearing unauthorized ribbons, awards, and patches to lying in 201 files, promotions packets, and job applications to impersonating an officer (or a higher rank). I think Burgwinkel suffered from this, as well as being caught up in some things he shouldn't have been.

Like you said, there's no telling, though.

The man whose mother went to the casino and disapeared - he had that weird hairstyle - I always thought something weird and dishonest about him

Tim McClure. He was actually arrested for the crime at one point but the charges were dropped.

Ditto on Larry Gibson, Don Dixon, Paul Pollis, Chad Noe, Leonard Rizzo, Curtis Croft, Judy Groezinger....

How about Don Sherman? Even his daughter thinks he killed his wife.

Some speculate the guy in the Joyce McClain story who found her might have something to do with her disappeance.

Tracy in the Dakota Double Death story is definitely not telling the whole story. Spinning out from an intersection will not make you flip your car.

I'm curious why someone had Colleen Ritter on their list.

I'm curious why someone had Colleen Ritter on their list.

I didnt think she was very honest about what went on between her and Richard their had to have been more to the story then what we heard,do you not ever see people interviewed that you just didnt trust something about them is off that is what I felt when I watched her speak.

I think SPC Burgwinkel was also involved in criminal activities, and attempted to make the situation seem like "undercover work" (which he wasn't very good at, IMO). It's common for some young enlisted to create stories about their duties or accomplishments. I call it the "Ranger complex." It happens in all services and branches, from the Army to the Air Force, from infantry to intel. The behaviors range from wearing unauthorized ribbons, awards, and patches to lying in 201 files, promotions packets, and job applications to impersonating an officer (or a higher rank). I think Burgwinkel suffered from this, as well as being caught up in some things he shouldn't have been.

He could also have gotten involved with paramilitary or terrorist groups as well. Like a militia type organization of right wing fanatics like the Kingman Arizona militia.

He could also have gone to become a mercenary and died overseas.

There are also a lot of "spy and soldier" wananbe groups who try to play wargames and go one missions that have no real strategic purpose but to similate operations.

During the fall of the Berlin Wall, there were a lot of these nostalgic wananbe groups that popped up.

He could also have gotten involved with paramilitary or terrorist groups as well. Like a militia type organization of right wing fanatics like the Kingman Arizona militia.

He could also have gone to become a mercenary and died overseas.

There are also a lot of "spy and soldier" wananbe groups who try to play wargames and go one missions that have no real strategic purpose but to similate operations.

During the fall of the Berlin Wall, there were a lot of these nostalgic wananbe groups that popped up.

Yep. All quite plausible, all quite true.

I completely don't understand why you think that of her. Some people point to her lack of emotion in the segment. Unsolved Mysteries was a taped show. The interview with her could have been hours and they cut out parts where she was very emotional. As far as what happened between her and Richard, that kind of stuff happens everyday (teenagers are friends...they start dating...it doesn;t work out...they break up). Richard had some serious problems to take the measures he did (I think he got mixed up in something at college) as 99.99% of all teens wouldn't even think of going as far as what Richard did (though this is becoming slightly more prevalent with the teaching of moral relativism).
I am (always have been) a pretty good judge of people. Within minutes I can generally tell you what a person is like and if they are fairly trustworthy or a little "off" (for example, a lady at my wife's work talked to me once for 3 minutes. I told my wife that lady was a little "off" and had a weak grasp of reality. My wife said I was crazy and her coworkers said they didn;t see that in the lady either. Several weeks later, everyone said that I was right). Very, very rarely is my initial impression wrong. On television it is much harder to make judgements because the segments are edited, you are not there in person with them (think about Danny Wheeler. He looked like a deer in headlights which was probably due to the presence of the camera taping his interview.), etc. I'm not saying you are wrong to feel that way about Colleen. I just didn't get that impression of her.

BTW, Rick Church was very bright and a decent athlete. You know why he was working fast food when arrested? Fast Food restaurants (especially then) were about the only job he could get (he was probably qualified for much more) where they wouldn't do a bunch of reference checking and catch that he was wanted.

I will actually agree with Marlins on this one. It sort of irritates me when someone thinks someone else 'is not telling everything' because they are not balling their eyes out the whole time. I do agree with Marlin that TV interviews are heavily edited and the actual interview probably lasted an hour or more yet you only saw brief snip its of the interview that tend to make the interview more exciting or juicy than it actually was. Or it is edited in a way to make the person being interviewed look bad. Now with the internet, sometimes you can access full tv interviews whereas you would only see 5 minutes or so of the interview in a general television segment yet the actual interview itself as over an hour and the person would come off as totally different in the whole interview as opposed to the 5 minute snip it shown on tv. Of course your average person either doesnt know or maybe does not care to know this.

I completely don't understand why you think that of her. Some people point to her lack of emotion in the segment. Unsolved Mysteries was a taped show. The interview with her could have been hours and they cut out parts where she was very emotional. As far as what happened between her and Richard, that kind of stuff happens everyday (teenagers are friends...they start dating...it doesn;t work out...they break up). Richard had some serious problems to take the measures he did (I think he got mixed up in something at college) as 99.99% of all teens wouldn't even think of going as far as what Richard did (though this is becoming slightly more prevalent with the teaching of moral relativism).
I am (always have been) a pretty good judge of people. Within minutes I can generally tell you what a person is like and if they are fairly trustworthy or a little "off" (for example, a lady at my wife's work talked to me once for 3 minutes. I told my wife that lady was a little "off" and had a weak grasp of reality. My wife said I was crazy and her coworkers said they didn;t see that in the lady either. Several weeks later, everyone said that I was right). Very, very rarely is my initial impression wrong. On television it is much harder to make judgements because the segments are edited, you are not there in person with them (think about Danny Wheeler. He looked like a deer in headlights which was probably due to the presence of the camera taping his interview.), etc. I'm not saying you are wrong to feel that way about Colleen. I just didn't get that impression of her.

BTW, Rick Church was very bright and a decent athlete. You know why he was working fast food when arrested? Fast Food restaurants (especially then) were about the only job he could get (he was probably qualified for much more) where they wouldn't do a bunch of reference checking and catch that he was wanted.

Thats wild about your wifes co worker, I know theirs some people that I really dont think anybody has a clue about what they are until after the fact, like for instance the BTK Killer or John Wayne Gacy.

I dont disagree alot of us are good judges of character but I know even the best judges of characters can get duped into thinking someone is alright and it turns it their not maybe I watch to much 48 Hours Mystery. Thanks for letting me have an opinion I know some people find that hard.

Okay... two things to address here:

1. I totally believed Rob Schafer's account of what happened to Angela Hammond (I'm actually shocked it wasn't mentioned earlier...) I just watched this segment again and his entire demeanor screams defeat of someone who in his own words, "was close enough to get her, but just couldn't get the job done." It breaks my heart every time I see it...

I also believed Jeremy, whose girlfriend Heather was beaten to death by "Tom Johnson." Another heartwrenching story, especially considering that Jeremy himself met a premature end as well....

The folks I don't believe I think you've all hit. Paul Polis and his family are at the top of my list, with Chad Noe and Company close behind them. Stephen Marfeo was also suspect...

I also don't believe the woman who said that Judy Himes was alive and living in Omaha. :)


2. Okay... as to the earlier comments about Leonard Rizzo and why he hadn't been charged with murder. I think I can address this, although it may not make some folks happy:
First of all, further investigation showed, at least to my memory, that there was only ONE set of bones found in the backyard. Those bones belonged to Monica Rizzo. Now there's absolutely NO disputing that Monica most likely was murdered. Just because her bones were found in her husband's backyard is NOT CONCLUSIVE evidence that Leonard did it. If Leonard were to be charged with murder and prosecuted with just that piece of evidence, I'm pretty sure he would be acquitted because there's too much reasonable doubt that someone else could have done it. Someone else could have killed Monica, chopped up her body, and disposed of it in Leonard Rizzo's backyard. Gross, but you have to admit it's a possibility because there's no evidence suggesting otherwise.

Additionally, the theory is that Monica was ran through a woodchipper. Okay. Is there any evidence that Mr. Rizzo owns a woodchipper? If he owned one, did they find any blood in it? These are all questions that a jury would ponder. Based on what UM presented, it looks like the general concensus is that Leonard Rizzo probably killed his wife, but you'd have to prove it in court beyond a reasonable doubt.

You've only got ONE shot to make your conviction in a criminal case. If Mr. Rizzo were to be taken to court and acquitted, he'd be forever cleared of Monica's death. My guess is that there are too many questions in the case at this point and the prosecutors don't want to risk letting a killer get away because they blew their case with only circumstantial evidence.

Hopping off my soap box now...

I'm sure you're right about the Rizzo case. It's a shame, though.

I wish they'd try him with me on his jury. I betcha I could convince the other jurors that the fact Leondard was in possession of the murdered and gruesomely dismembered remains removed all resonable doubt of who was responsible.

It sure wouldn't be like a scene out of 12 Angry Men. It would be more like 11 Scared Rabbits and One Crazy Ass BeeYotch. lol

I'm sure you're right about the Rizzo case. It's a shame, though.

I wish they'd try him with me on his jury. I betcha I could convince the other jurors that the fact Leondard was in possession of the murdered and gruesomely dismembered remains removed all resonable doubt of who was responsible.

It sure wouldn't be like a scene out of 12 Angry Men. It would be more like 11 Scared Rabbits and One Crazy Ass BeeYotch. lol

and if Rizzo really didn't do it? :)

and if Rizzo really didn't do it? :)

Dude, he did it. He'd been beating on her already, then she abruptly goes missing, only to be found in itty bitty pieces in the back yard.

Guilty people have gone to prison on a lot less evidence than having the body in their possession.

To have a normal amount of reasonable doubt, we'd have to find out who hates Leonard and/or Monika so much that they would be willing to kill her, put her through a chipper, and then spread her about the yard without Leonard ever noticing.

That part about Leonard never noticing is a big stretch. Even a bigger stretch than somebody else did it and framed him for it. The only other time I recall that happening, the smell finally got to the person and she discovered that her loved one had been murdered and left on her property. Leonard never noticed that his entire back yard smelled like chunks of flesh rotting in garbage bags? hmmm....

Here's some more info on one of our favorite "getting away with murder" guys:

About a week after she'd been last seen by her son, a tipster calls the cops to say that Monika has been murdered by her husband Leonard and that her body can be found in the family back yard.

On May 5th, 1997, Monika left her office around lunch time, leaving her purse behind. Her boss called her home repeatedly for 8 days, yet she never answered. When she finally answered, she told her boss that she was ill, and would be out the rest of that week, and wouldn't be back to work until the following Monday, May 19th.

That was a full two weeks that she was unexpectedly out of work, leaving without a word to anyone, with her purse still left behind at the office.

A few days after the 19th, Monika still hadn't returned to work, and in fact, Leonard said that he woke up one morning to find that his darling Monika had disappeared from his loving embrace during the night.

Yet, he didn't find that troubling enough to altert the police to the fact that Monika, who had been so sick that she had to abruptly leave work for over two weeks and couldn't even take phone calls, was now missing, without taking her car or any of her clothes with her, and without letting her family know where she was going!

Five weeks after the first tip was called in, the tipster called back, this time giving the police exact locations in the yard to conduct their search for Monika's remains.

This search yielded a skull, bone fragments, and a bag of deboned human flesh. The house had evidence of bashed in dry wall and blood spattering on the walls. Leonard says that this damage came from him being angry at Monika's disappearnce so he beat up the house.

But there could be another cause for the condition of the walls. Monika's co-workers were more worried about her welfare than her own husband was! They called police to check on her. The cop who responded to that call thought there was valid reason for concern. He observed a beaten and bruised Monika who excused her condition by using the standard "I fell".

Leonard, in all his twisted web of deceit, slipped up when talking about Monika, while the poor woman is still missing, and refers to his wife in the past tense. Calling Dr. Freud!

Isn't there some commentary on the Bizarre Murders dvd about the state of the Rizzo house, and UM had a hard time finding a part of the house Leonard hadn't "beat up" so they could interview him?

I also do not believe the caller in the Kathy Hobbs case. I think she was lured into a car by people at her apartment complex, not abducted from the store's parking lot.

I also do not believe the caller in the Kathy Hobbs case. I think she was lured into a car by people at her apartment complex, not abducted from the store's parking lot.

That's interesting. Believe it or not, I never thought to question the caller (although he did accurately describe the clothes she was wearing...could've gotten that from a news broadcast, though). Your theory is far more plausible IMO, though. The store's located near a HUGE intersection, and there would've been people flowing in and out of that store even at that time of night, just as was explained in the segment. It just doesn't make sense, the way the caller described the abduction.

I must say the one eyewitness I did not believe was in the Brad Bishop case. The former co-worker of his who then claimed to run into him in Italy. The story was just too unbelievable to me. He happens to run into him all angry on his way out of work that day and gets him a cab and then 2 years later runs into him in a bathroom in Italy? Sorry didn't buy it. He seemed to be one of those people who put them into stories. Just my opinion of course.

Bradford Bishop was sighted at several places throughout Europe by people who knew him. I tend to believe him, and so does the FBI.

I am sure Roy Harrell gave far more details to the FBI that what was shown that segment. The encounter is so unbelievable that I am sure they asked as much details as possible. A hobbo victim of a mistaken identity does not run away by throwing things behind in his path just because the guy asked his name, especially if the guy is non-threating.

If the hobbo really said "Oh my God, no!" in English when he saw Harrell, I am 100% the guy was Bishop.

Don Sherman. I found him to be a total fake. He did not appear to have one genuine bone in his body...and whats sad...when your own daughter thinks you did it.

I've also never found Mary Norris number two's husband to be credible. In my opinion...he was behind it...he hired someone to off his poor wife and when it was a mistake hit then his wife was offed a few days later. What has me thinking this...that 4 minute phone call...and he just gives me that creep vibe. That I'm a creep and I killed my wife and I'm going to get away with it vibe...Just my opinion.

I knew I wasn't going to believe a word Jule Caylor said before he even opened his mouth. I also didn't believe the family in the ghost segment that said that the guy in the cheap Cosby sweater was raped by a female spirit.

I totally believed Jeff Oberholtzer and Jim and Kay Tatum (the older couple that said their home was haunted).

Yes...I believe the Tatum's as well. The story they told seemed so sincere and they both genuinely seemed scared at the prospect of having a spirit or entity in their home. BUT what I did not believe was that it was assumed by Dr. Roll that it was a poltergeist. I think that it was a genuine haunting.

The Hansen twins' parents struck me as among the most trustworthy and Donny as among the least trustworthy of anyone ever on UM. Did he get an evil gene from his biological father or what? It seems near impossible for such people to have such a son. ohno:

The Hansen twins' parents struck me as among the most trustworthy and Donny as among the least trustworthy of anyone ever on UM. Did he get an evil gene from his biological father or what? It seems near impossible for such people to have such a son. ohno:

I agree - those parents seemed so sincere and are clearly so deeply hurt by all the things that have happened.

I agree - those parents seemed so sincere and are clearly so deeply hurt by all the things that have happened.

Plus, they appeared on camera while Donny had his voice and face disguised.

Plus, they appeared on camera while Donny had his voice and face disguised.

And didn't Donnie change his name as well?

And didn't Donnie change his name as well?

Yep, he sure did.

Today was a 2fer for me, I watched both Chad Noe (and is family) and Mark Nichols. Don't trust either of those guys, as several others have stated. All I could think was what a loser Chad Noe is. I feel sorry for his son with Wendy for having to grow up in that family.

I missed the whole marathon today. I had to pay bills online, answer a bunch of business emails, work on my taxes on turbotax on the computer, and do a bunch of other stuff that had me tied to the desk.

I kept popping in here as often as I could to get my UM fix. Wish I could have watched it, but I don't have a dvr. :(

May i nominate the nosy old neighbor in the Danny Williams segment.

She could also be nominated as the most annoying person ever on UM.:lol:

Chip Roussard (The Ellender Case) - who I think is the biggest inbred hick moron ever to appear on television. I cannot express in words the contempt I feel for this schmuck. I mean his whole 30 second or so statement is a true testament to his idiocy. I WISH I could repeat it right now verbatim just to illustrate how incredibly moronic this ****er is.
Pearl Whatever (The Ellender Case) - even though I think the actress who played her is oddly attractive, she too disgusts me. These small-minded horribly insipid little slime balls perpetuating this awful urban fairytale of the horrible deaths of that lovely couple, the Ellenders. As if the murders weren’t horrible enough, they invent and keep spinning this awful web of lies, seemingly trying to out-horrify each story…and for what?! To get on TV? To get a little 15 minutes of Big Fish in a Small Pond fame? They’ve got that poor dad out of his mind chasing down the most improbable and obscene stories.


Paul Pollis - Just a flat out bad person. A bad liar too. How the hell did the cops bungle this case?

Mama Lombardi (Tony Lombardi’s Suicide) – She used up the natural pity I have for parents of suicides by her adamant and angry statements. She has admitted telling different versions of her story and will now not budge from a version which best fits what she wants to believe. That’s all well and okay and I wouldn’t mind but she lost my sympathy by attacking the local authorities who did their job satisfactorily.

Tommy Zeigler – Dude’s lying. I kind of gave him the benefit of the doubt for a while but during the most recent viewing I decided he’s a liar. First off, his whole “I couldn’t have done it because I only bought good quality guns” claim is weak. I mean come on. More importantly though is that I find his version of events incredibly, like utterly impossibly, unbelievable. If Tommy Zeigler is to be believed:
The killers showed up at the place to rob it
The killers somehow got close enough to Eunice (his wife) to kill her from behind. There was no sign of struggle and she was so at ease her hand was in her pocket.
The killers then shoot Eunice’s parents at close range. Eunice’s father, only after he is shot at close range by strangers, begins to struggle with the killers.
Tommy Zeigler shows up and cannot turn on the lights.
The killers then start beating Tommy Zeigler up.
WHA?!? HUH?!?
They’ve massacred 3 people with gunshots, only fighting with someone who refuses to die. Then they decide to just beat up TZ for the hell of it? They’ve coolly and calculatedly maneuvered 3 people into a position to easily shoot them dead, but now they’re going to get into a fistfight. They decide to trash the place and cause all kinds of noisy ruckus after firing loud gunshots. Not to mention one of them made prior arrangements with TZ to be there! How many robbers do that? It makes no sense.

I knew Stephen Marfeo was a lying self-important murdering ass-hole the very second I saw his smug ass on the TV.

Crystaldawn:wave: :wave: : Is Cecelia Newball the Latina woman who went missing while pregnant along with her 7 year old son? If so, her husband is GUILTY!


The rest of the liars:
Tony Lombardi’s best friend – I think he was just lying while the mom was just pissed off and in denial
Donnie Hansen
Stuart Heaton – who I originally believed
That crazy broad who came up with the repressed memories of her dad killing the sofa cushions and calling out “here piggy, piggy”
The lady who keeps “seeing” her dead P.O.W. brother – I don’t think SHE even believes her bull****.


I believe:
Doyle Wheeler
I actually believe Jule Caylor

Judy Groezinger is 100% lying in my view.

Judy Groezinger is 100% lying in my view.

Hell yeah she is. I can't believe I forgot her.

Some I don't knows:
Tim McClure
Christie Slutzfield
Glenn Consagra

I did no believe Miss Kitty (the woman who could produce gold flakes.) It just looked so fake to me. But maybe it's just me.

I do believe Nancy Myer. She's a good psychic.

Well the ones I didn't believe right off were Chad Noe, Stephen Marfeo, Mark Nichols and Jule Caylor. Also the guy in law enforcement interviewed in the Tommy Burket segment.

Hmm there are a lot of witnesses that I did believe. One that stands out that some people may not agree with me on is Cecelia Newball's husband. He seemed genuine and I think she left willingly or met with foul play but I don't think he was involved.

I thought the guy in the Tommy Burket segment was a complete jerk.

I actually believe Jule Caylor

You know, I do too. He's an utterly strange man (with some of the closest set eyes I think I have ever seen on a human being), but I don't believe he's lying.

I did no believe Miss Kitty (the woman who could produce gold flakes.) It just looked so fake to me. But maybe it's just me.

It's not just you. She was using gold leaf. It's very thin gold papers that are available at art supply stores.

The reason that she was able to get away with the hoax back then, is because most people weren't aware of the gold leafing process and the materials used to do it. Now, we see the supplies sold on the internet and the methods demonstrated on mundane decorating shows on tv.

Thanks for the info TracyLynn!!!!

Chip Roussard (The Ellender Case) - who I think is the biggest inbred hick moron ever to appear on television. I cannot express in words the contempt I feel for this schmuck. I mean his whole 30 second or so statement is a true testament to his idiocy. I WISH I could repeat it right now verbatim just to illustrate how incredibly moronic this ****er is.
Pearl Whatever (The Ellender Case) - even though I think the actress who played her is oddly attractive, she too disgusts me. These small-minded horribly insipid little slime balls perpetuating this awful urban fairytale of the horrible deaths of that lovely couple, the Ellenders. As if the murders weren’t horrible enough, they invent and keep spinning this awful web of lies, seemingly trying to out-horrify each story…and for what?! To get on TV? To get a little 15 minutes of Big Fish in a Small Pond fame? They’ve got that poor dad out of his mind chasing down the most improbable and obscene stories. Can someone tell me more details on this case so I can try to watch it? It is not ringing any bells and I openly admit I am not as good as details as you guys (and I mean that as a huge compliment) but I don't remember this one.

I, too, believed Jules but I do also agree that he is one of the oddest odd ducks around, I do not think he killed his wife.

Tim McClure Now I pegged Tim and his mullet as guilty ASAP. I know it won't hold up in a court of law but when he starting spouting off about the Holy Spirit guiding him in and out of parking lots, I was all yeah whatever, MulletMan.

Crystaldawn:wave: :wave: : Is Cecelia Newball the Latina woman who went missing while pregnant along with her 7 year old son? If so, her husband is GUILTY!
[/LIST]



Yep thats her Corky. Except you're wrong about her husband being guilty, never believed it. Knowing you I'm surprised you don't think she committed suicide. :p

http://www.unsolved.com/ajaxfiles/une_chris_prudhomme.htm

The Ellenders were a young married couple who lived near Pam Ellender's parents. She visited with her mom daily, IIRC. The couple had a young baby daughter.

Eric and Pam Ellender were murdered in their bed. Their baby daughter was spared.

There's a twisted tale (that many on this board do not believe) that some crazy doped up satanic cult killed them, had sex with both dead bodies, filmed it, partied in the house with the dead bodies, and on and on.

While it's not entirely impossible, I tend think that they are rumors (part of the 80s/90s satanic panic) that have sent the Ellender's parents on a wild goose chase looking for the killers.

And regarding the Ellender case and the satanic cult angle...

The satanic group was supposed to be a bunch of kids who called themselves SKATERS which stood for Satans Kids Against The Establishment.

This was 1991. Now if they called themselves Skaters because they were into skate boarding, I could see that making sense. But 18 and 19 year olds in 1991 were not calling "the establishment" by that name. That was what the counter culture of the 60s and 70s was calling it.

I wonder where Huey Littleton (Pam Ellender's dad) got his information about this group being called skaters.

edit: I just read more at the UM site. People connected to the killings said that there was a party in the murder house, with people doing drugs, etc. But officials said that there was no sign that there had been any partying going on at the house. I would have to believe that doped up people doing LSD, snorting coke, drinking, with multiple people engaging in necrophelia are going to leave behind one heck of a mess.

They're not going to clean up discarded beer cans, wipe off the coke dust, clean the carpet and furniture from careless spills (cuz what do they care, it ain't their house). I just don't think they could have partied hard in the house and left behind no signs.

I wonder where Huey Littleton (Pam Ellender's dad) got his information about this group being called skaters.

edit: I just read more at the UM site. People connected to the killings said that there was a party in the murder house, with people doing drugs, etc. But officials said that there was no sign that there had been any partying going on at the house. I would have to believe that doped up people doing LSD, snorting coke, drinking, with multiple people engaging in necrophelia are going to leave behind one heck of a mess.

They're not going to clean up discarded beer cans, wipe off the coke dust, clean the carpet and furniture from careless spills (cuz what do they care, it ain't their house). I just don't think they could have partied hard in the house and left behind no signs. I just read the stuff that was linked and I would have to believe that there was no satanic stuff that went on. I agree that a bunch of LSD and coked up kids would leave a huge ass mess.

The dad seems intent on solving a crime that has been solved, yes?

The dad seems intent on solving a crime that has been solved, yes?

It looks that way. Such intense grief must have made Mr. Littleton incapable of investigating any aspect of the case objectively.

I agree. That whole story about a bunch of satanists having sex with the bodies and doing drugs at the house never made any sense. There's no way some group of druggie satanists would have had a party like that there and not left a huge mess. I feel bad for the woman's family because instead of finding what little closure they could in the culprits being brought to justice (and I say "little closure" because I do believe that when a loved one is murdered, there is no such thing as "true closure"), they are still spending so much time and energy trying to discover "what really happened," and imagining all these horrific scenarios. No doubt what happened to her was horrific, but all this satanist stuff and raping the bodies is ludicrous.

I've done a lot of reading on the Ellender case as I have been haunted by it since I first saw the UM broadcast many years ago.

My gut feeling is that there is some element of truth to the multiple intruder/party scenario but on a much, much smaller scale. I think it's possible that Prudhomme and a few of his buddies hung around the house for a couple hours after the murders and did drugs, but I don't buy that there was some huge shindig. I think the stories about a Satanic ritual, necrophilia, and snuff videos are just that - stories.

The perpetrators of this crime were teenagers. Teens talk a lot. The truth of the matter became more clouded through each retelling of the story, and the list of conspirators grew each time someone claimed that they were in the house that night, or knew someone that was. The story become much more exaggerated and blown up into something way more than it ever was or possibly could have been. The lies and BS are so deep that trying to wade one's way through it all would be very daunting and probably impossible at this late date. Not to mention that the real perpetrator is dead.

I can't help but feel bad for Huey Littleton. He wanted to do right by his daughter and son in law, but I think he was blinded perhaps by his own anger over their deaths. He seemed willing to listen to anyone who claimed they had information and he took every word to the bank.

Gary Grant Sr.

1. How could he not think of even ONE person that would have a vendetta against him. He was cop for a long period of time. He had to have made some enemies.

2. I tend to feel that Gary Grant may have been involved in something illegal and his son was killed as payback for a debt. I have often wondered who would take the chance to deface a police car with a message like that. Especially a cop who's right outside in a sandwich shop. For that matter who would risk a chance to kill a cop's son.

3. I hate to be stereotypical, but this case does take place in Atlantic City, NJ. Home to the Mafia.

I just felt that Gary Grant wasn;t telling the whole truth in his interview.

The thing that bugged me about Gary Grant sr was that he said something like he couldn't think of anyone he'd ever arrested who would want to get revenge on him by killing his kid because no perp had ever told him specifically, "I'm going to get back at you for this."

If he was telling the truth, then he is one dumb cop. Not every vengeful perp is going to announce his intentions. Lots of people stew quietly in their anger and then take their revenge out on the person who they feel has wronged them. The victim may not even know how the vengeful person feels. Sometimes those types are striking out over an imaginary slight or are blowing a situation out of proportion.

Gary Grant sr, was a cop who arrested criminals. IMO, every one of those people is a potential suspect.

Outside of those possibilities, there are tons of others. Including a girlfriend who wants Gary to marry her, but he says that he's got a kid to think about so, no, they'll just keep seeing each other on thursdays... So she kills the kid to get rid of the obstacle to matrimony. That's happened quite a few times and one a few years ago was actually a cop in california.

There's also the chance that he was involved in something he shouldn't have been involved in. Unfortunately, that's very common. If that's the case, could be that he wrote on the cop car himself, to divert suspicion.

The thing that bugged me about Gary Grant sr was that he said something like he couldn't think of anyone he'd ever arrested who would want to get revenge on him by killing his kid because no perp had ever told him specifically, "I'm going to get back at you for this."

If he was telling the truth, then he is one dumb cop. Not every vengeful perp is going to announce his intentions. Lots of people stew quietly in their anger and then take their revenge out on the person who they feel has wronged them. The victim may not even know how the vengeful person feels. Sometimes those types are striking out over an imaginary slight or are blowing a situation out of proportion.

Gary Grant sr, was a cop who arrested criminals. IMO, every one of those people is a potential suspect.
But, as you said, since there could be all sorts of people that might want revenge on him without him even knowing, how in the world is he supposed to name all those people? It's up to the officers investigating to look at all his cases to see if there's anyone there who could have been involved. That said, such a task would be an undertaking of massive proportions. The number of people he's given tickets to, arrested, responded to calls and not done what someone at the call wanted, etc. would be enormous, and all of them wouldn't even be documented. To kill the child of a cop because of something the cop did to you would be extremely unusual. I'm not sure if there is another case in history of such a thing, so I'm not convinced that the best use of police resources would be to try to track down every last person Gary, Sr. ever interacted with as a police officer.

Was there something about the writing that "only the killer would have known?" Otherwise, it seems more likely to me that Gary was the victim of a random perv, and the person who vandalized his car was just a sick prankster.

But, as you said, since there could be all sorts of people that might want revenge on him without him even knowing, how in the world is he supposed to name all those people? It's up to the officers investigating to look at all his cases to see if there's anyone there who could have been involved. That said, such a task would be an undertaking of massive proportions. The number of people he's given tickets to, arrested, responded to calls and not done what someone at the call wanted, etc. would be enormous, and all of them wouldn't even be documented. To kill the child of a cop because of something the cop did to you would be extremely unusual. I'm not sure if there is another case in history of such a thing, so I'm not convinced that the best use of police resources would be to try to track down every last person Gary, Sr. ever interacted with as a police officer.


Cops know their beats better than their own homes. I;ve seen patrol officers who could tell you the name of every drug dealer within a city block. They could tell you the exact street name that an old mexican drug dealer got shot at in 1976. he would also know and remember a bad shooting, a time he took someones cash from them, a suspect who was more violent than usual.

There is a good reason why Gary would not mention that type person. if that person was another cop or an organized crime member, Gary would have incentive not to say that name. He still has to protect his wife.

It;s not impossible that Gary Grant Sr. was on the take or had abused his power at some point and that his sons murder was retribution.

Drug Dealers who are owned money tend to use killing of the family or child as their main incentive in getting back their money.

I could easily see a situation where Gary Grant Sr, was gambling, owed money to some organized crime members. Wasn't able to pay them back and they killed his child to encourage payment.


Was there something about the writing that "only the killer would have known?" Otherwise, it seems more likely to me that Gary was the victim of a random perv, and the person who vandalized his car was just a sick prankster.

Did Gary Grant Jr, show signs of molestation? iIf a perv was tracking or stalking Gary Grant Jr, he would eventually realize that his father was a cop. I have to think that would be bad business for a pedo to attack cops child. It would bring the entire police force down on him and ruin his fun.

Gary's talk about the appointment that morning also hints that it wasn;t simply a random killer or pedophile. It hints that Gary Jr. may have met his killer previously.

The vandalized car was a cop car. With the cop who owned the car very close and nearby. It was a detailed message that took time. i don;t know of any vandals that would take that much of a risk, but to send a message. Organized crime, gangs and mafioso would take that chance.

yuppielawyer,

I wasn't suggesting that they investigate every person the victim's father had ever arrested or interacted with in the course of his job.

What bothered me was what he said. It was something about the only reason he didn't suspect any of his prior arrestees who might have wanted to get revenge on him was because they didn't come right out and specifically announce what their plans were.

I thought it was weird that he would limit his list of suspects to only those who told him that they intended to get back at him and that he didn't seem to consider that it could be any one of those hundreds of people and maybe they just didn't verbalize their intentions.

But, without having any reason to suspect any of his prior arestees, what else is he supposed to say? I suppose he could have said, "It could have been anyone, but I can't think of any of them that would do this."
There is a good reason why Gary would not mention that type person. if that person was another cop or an organized crime member, Gary would have incentive not to say that name. He still has to protect his wife.

It;s not impossible that Gary Grant Sr. was on the take or had abused his power at some point and that his sons murder was retribution.

Drug Dealers who are owned money tend to use killing of the family or child as their main incentive in getting back their money.

I could easily see a situation where Gary Grant Sr, was gambling, owed money to some organized crime members. Wasn't able to pay them back and they killed his child to encourage payment.
There is absolutely not one shred of evidence (at least, none that we've been made aware of) that supports this theory at all. I think people should be more careful before hurling these types of accusations at someone whose child was brutally murdered. I also can't imagine that Gary Grant, Sr. would go on Unsolved Mysteries asking for information on who killed his son if he suspected that it was his mafia or drug associates that did it. If he suspects it's them, and he wants them caught, then he just has to tell the authorities. If he suspects it's them and he's covering for them, why would he want to go on TV to get publicity and try to get witnesses to bring forward evidence of who the killer was? It would seem that would only anger these folks more.
Did Gary Grant Jr, show signs of molestation? iIf a perv was tracking or stalking Gary Grant Jr, he would eventually realize that his father was a cop. I have to think that would be bad business for a pedo to attack cops child. It would bring the entire police force down on him and ruin his fun.

Gary's talk about the appointment that morning also hints that it wasn;t simply a random killer or pedophile. It hints that Gary Jr. may have met his killer previously.
When I said he was likely the victim of a random perv, I didn't mean necessarily someone who was just driving down the street that day and decided to snatch Gary on impulse. He could have watched the street before and even talked to Gary. I just meant that this seems much more like the crime of perverted child killer than someone "sending a message" to a cop by killing his small child. Whether there were any "signs of molestation" on Gary is irrelevant, IMO. 99 times out of 100, fondling doesn't leave any physical evidence. If he made the kid give him oral sex, there could very well be no sign of molestation on the child. The evidence that points to a sexual predator is that it was a young child, murdered and dumped.
The vandalized car was a cop car. With the cop who owned the car very close and nearby. It was a detailed message that took time. i don;t know of any vandals that would take that much of a risk, but to send a message. Organized crime, gangs and mafioso would take that chance.
Well, I represented a couple of teenagers (not mafiosos or gang members involved in killing children) who spray painted all sorts of nasty messages on a couple cop cars while the cops were inside a restaurant having their dinner break. It's a damn stupid thing to do; but, teenagers do stupid things all the time.

I thought it was weird that he would limit his list of suspects to only those who told him that they intended to get back at him and that he didn't seem to consider that it could be any one of those hundreds of people and maybe they just didn't verbalize their intentions.

Verbally threatening a cop is a crime in and of itself, and as Miranda says could be used against you.

A threat would only occur if their was a strong belief that the police officer had wronged you.

Something like that would be something, that I think Gary Grant Jr. would not want known to the public.

If he committed police brutality against a suspect, i'm pretty sure he would not want that to be let out.

I don;t know if this is true, but I read somewhere that the police department that Gary Grant is part of is one of the most corrupt in the nation.

There is absolutely not one shred of evidence (at least, none that we've been made aware of) that supports this theory at all. I think people should be more careful before hurling these types of accusations at someone whose child was brutally murdered. I also can't imagine that Gary Grant, Sr. would go on Unsolved Mysteries asking for information on who killed his son if he suspected that it was his mafia or drug associates that did it. If he suspects it's them, and he wants them caught, then he just has to tell the authorities. If he suspects it's them and he's covering for them, why would he want to go on TV to get publicity and try to get witnesses to bring forward evidence of who the killer was? It would seem that would only anger these folks more.

People on this board make accusations against people without evidence all the time on this board. This is a message board, not a court of law. This is like two people talking on a street corner about gossip.

1. Deputy Gibson didn;t have to go on unsolved Mysteries about his son, either. People could have gathered info on him as well and convicted him just as easily.

2.Gary could easily have went on Unsolved Mysteries to protect himself and his wife. if he;s shown on TV, there is less a likelihood that someone would off him or his wife in order to exact further retribution. In a way, appearing on Unsolved Mysteries is the best way to ensure your safety.

3.He could also use this opportunity to send a message to those people. "leave me alone, or people might start looking into people's affairs". Going on TV would be better than going to a police superior or internal affairs. It would be the perfect way to strike back at his son;s killers without explicitly saying who did it.

4.There's an active investigation already into his son;s death, which Gary has to provide info for in the first place. Even a mobster or corrupt cop would have to realize that Gary has to tell some of the truth and participate in helping the investigation to some degree. Appearing on Unsolved Mysteries or AMW would seem like standard procedure in solving the case It would look even more suspicious if Gary did nothing.

5. Gary Grant kind of explained away the case being the work of a mafioso or policeman, by saying he couldn't think of anybody that came to mind. I think the killers would be pleased that Gary pointed away from the crime being an act of retribution.


Quote:
The vandalized car was a cop car. With the cop who owned the car very close and nearby. It was a detailed message that took time. i don;t know of any vandals that would take that much of a risk, but to send a message. Organized crime, gangs and mafioso would take that chance.
Well, I represented a couple of teenagers (not mafiosos or gang members involved in killing children) who spray painted all sorts of nasty messages on a couple cop cars while the cops were inside a restaurant having their dinner break. It's a damn stupid thing to do; but, teenagers do stupid things all the time.

But they were caught in the act, no? Were those kids on drugs? Was there message specify a certain action or incident.

The vandal on the police car in this case used chalk or a marker, not spray paint, no?


Quote:
Did Gary Grant Jr, show signs of molestation? iIf a perv was tracking or stalking Gary Grant Jr, he would eventually realize that his father was a cop. I have to think that would be bad business for a pedo to attack cops child. It would bring the entire police force down on him and ruin his fun.

Gary's talk about the appointment that morning also hints that it wasn;t simply a random killer or pedophile. It hints that Gary Jr. may have met his killer previously.
When I said he was likely the victim of a random perv, I didn't mean necessarily someone who was just driving down the street that day and decided to snatch Gary on impulse. He could have watched the street before and even talked to Gary. I just meant that this seems much more like the crime of pervert99 times out of 100, fondling doesn't leave any physical evidence. ed child killer than someone "sending a message" to a cop by killing his small child. Whether there were any "signs of molestation" on Gary is irrelevant, IMO. If he made the kid give him oral sex, there could very well be no sign of molestation on the child. The evidence that points to a sexual predator is that it was a young child, murdered and dumped.

Then there would be semen in the mouth or stomach as well as pre-ejaculatory fluid or pubic hairs. There would also be signs of bruising potentially to the back of Gary's head. I doubt that Gary did this act willingly. And if he did, the killer could have easily walked away without killing Gary. The only reason to kill Gary is that the sexual molestation was something that could not be hidden. It was something that he could not walk away from.

It seems very lucky that this perv happened to catch Gary at first sight at the time that Gary left home early for his important meeting.


Whether there were any "signs of molestation" on Gary is irrelevant, IMO.99 times out of 100, fondling doesn't leave any physical evidence.

If that's true, than essentially any murder of anyone could be a sex crime. Cindy James murder could be a sex crime. Eric Tamiyasu's death could be a sex crime as well. Heck the Zodiac Killer's crimes could all be sex crimes.

if all that happened to Gary sexually was fondling. This killer could easily have walked away.

If your in the business of killing a kid, you might as well get your money's worth and molest the child and fufill all your fantasies. Why do some half-hearted fondling. I mean unless your the kids father or uncle, you don;t have to hide anything.

One of the things that we will never be privy to, is Gary Grant Sr. jacket.

I would be very interested to know if there were any complaints, reprimands, investigations or citations in that jacket.

Does anyone know if Gary Grant Sr. was part of any special units, such as narcotics, organized crime or vice?

If Gary Grant's jacket is dirty (pardon the pun :D ) we could have a reason and a suspect right there.

Heck maybe there's a pedophile who made a complaint in that jacket.

Another reason that Gary Sr, would show up on Unsolved Mysteries is that the case was very old at the time he showed up. The cops or mafioso that he was involved with might not be around at that moment. He would have more freedom to investigate the case now than he did years back.

Whether there were any "signs of molestation" on Gary is irrelevant, IMO.99 times out of 100, fondling doesn't leave any physical evidence.
If that's true, than essentially any murder of anyone could be a sex crime. Cindy James murder could be a sex crime. Eric Tamiyasu's death could be a sex crime as well. Heck the Zodiac Killer's crimes could all be sex crimes.

if all that happened to Gary sexually was fondling. This killer could easily have walked away.

If your in the business of killing a kid, you might as well get your money's worth and molest the child and fufill all your fantasies. Why do some half-hearted fondling. I mean unless your the kids father or uncle, you don;t have to hide anything.
As to your first point, that is exactly right. Ask anyone in law enforcement, and they will tell you that not all sex crimes have physical evidence of a sexual assault. And if you think that kids aren't killed after being "half-heartedly fondled" (whatever that means) by a stranger who abducted him, then you are in massive denial. It absolutely happens. It could be that Gary threatened to tell; it could be that he started crying or screaming and the perp was afraid of being heard. This stuff happens frequently. And to dismiss such a scenario in favor of a completely unsupported and extremely unlikely scenario that makes Gary Grant, Sr. into a dirty cop, in bed with the mafia, or covering up their involvement in his child's brutal murder because he's afraid for his own life, is extremely far-fetched. And whether we are a court of law or not, in my opinion, throwing out such wild, baseless allegations against a named person is wrong. (And, as a lawyer, I'd just warn that even something you post on an internet forum can subject you to a defamation lawsuit.)

Quote:
Quote:
Whether there were any "signs of molestation" on Gary is irrelevant, IMO.99 times out of 100, fondling doesn't leave any physical evidence.
If that's true, than essentially any murder of anyone could be a sex crime. Cindy James murder could be a sex crime. Eric Tamiyasu's death could be a sex crime as well. Heck the Zodiac Killer's crimes could all be sex crimes.

if all that happened to Gary sexually was fondling. This killer could easily have walked away.

If your in the business of killing a kid, you might as well get your money's worth and molest the child and fufill all your fantasies. Why do some half-hearted fondling. I mean unless your the kids father or uncle, you don;t have to hide anything.
As to your first point, that is exactly right. Ask anyone in law enforcement, and they will tell you that not all sex crimes have physical evidence of a sexual assault. And if you think that kids aren't killed after being "half-heartedly fondled" (whatever that means) by a stranger who abducted him, then you are in massive denial. It absolutely happens. It could be that Gary threatened to tell; it could be that he started crying or screaming and the perp was afraid of being heard. This stuff happens frequently. And to dismiss such a scenario in favor of a completely unsupported and extremely unlikely scenario that makes Gary Grant, Sr. into a dirty cop, in bed with the mafia, or covering up their involvement in his child's brutal murder because he's afraid for his own life, is extremely far-fetched. And whether we are a court of law or not, in my opinion, throwing out such wild, baseless allegations against a named person is wrong. (And, as a lawyer, I'd just warn that even something you post on an internet forum can subject you to a defamation lawsuit.)

They wouldn;t throw it out if you had a witness to the activity.

I'm not trying to convict someone in court. I'm trying to find Person(s) of Interest and a line of investigation to follow. That's the difference between being a lawyer and an investigator. An investigator tries to follow all potential leads until they come up dry or he finds one that holds up to evidence or scrutiny that can allow him to arrest someone. Lawyers try to disprove or prove a case based upon evidence and the law.

I would first check Gary Grant's jacket to see if there was anything strange in it. i would then check internal affairs and FBI to see if there are any corruption cases in that police department and if Gary Grant sr.s name or any officers in his unit come up in a file. I would then ask around the department and see if any bad info on Gary. Then ultimately interrogate Gary about his career.

if nothing comes up, then we

I also seriously doubt if the case had police corruption in it that it would ever see the light of a court date. The officers would be dismissed and the case file would be burned in some superiors waste basket



What I am ultimately suggesting is that someone should look into Gary Grant Sr's record as a cop and find out if there is anything to suggest he was not on the up and up or that there was a complaint made against him. Or if there was dispute with another officer.

If there is a record or a story of Gary Grant severly beating up a civilian two years before the murder. That person or his family or peers very well could be POIs. The incident may not even be in his record, but may be remembered by a cop that was on patrol with him.

Would you not agree that this would be a reasonable line of investigation?

If not, where do you want to go? If Gary was killed by a random psycopath, it'll be virtually impossible to catch him. Unless

1. The killer talks to someone or confesses
2. he kills again and we can connect this case to another
3. He killed before and we can connect.

But so far nothing.

If we are going to follow the evidence as you say, then there is no evidence that Gary jr. was molested. So all we have is a murdered child outside of the home. The only reason to believe that the child was killed by a random stranger is that it is a default theory based on lack of other evidence.

We have the child of a police officer found murdered with no evidence of sexual molestation found dead away from home.

If he was not killed by a random psychopath who just wanted to kill a kid, he most likely was killed by someone who knew his father was a police officer. It was either

1. Someone who wanted to kill a cop's son for jollies and prove he could kill a cop's son
2. Or someone who killed Gary for retribution against his father or the police department.

To investigate the later, Gary Sr's record and police jacket HAVE to be examined. It has to be put into question. I personally believe that there hasn;t been a deep enough investigation into Gary Sr's history as a cop.

To investigate the later, Gary Sr's record and police jacket HAVE to be examined. It has to be put into question. I personally believe that there hasn;t been a deep enough investigation into Gary Sr's history as a cop.
And what do you base that on? Do you have some inside information on what investigation was done into his history as a cop?

At any rate, I think we've both vigorously, but respectfully, stated our points of view on this, and we're probably getting off-topic, since this is the "Who did you believe and not believe?" thread, and not the Gary Grant thread. I'm happy to continue the discussion with you via PM if you want to keep debating. Maybe we can come up with something.

It looked to me like the writing on the cop car was done with a marker, but the UM site says it was "painted" on. This happened a full two years after the boy's murder.

As far as the posters here making allegations, suppositions, and throwing out maybe's, could be's, and might of's, against the players in the UM segments.... If our babblings on the internet message boards are held to the standards of being libelous, slandering a person's good name, or falsely accusing the innocent, we're all in deep shyt.

Who haven't we flayed alive on this site? Marvin Maple has been declared guilty and banished to hell by half the posters here. Patsy Wright's (alleged) arsonist ex husband has been all but publicly convicted by a few of us. Sheriff Wampler has been declared either guilty of murder or accessory to murder in the Eric Tamyasu case, as was Don Dixon. Then we have Chad Noe and his whole clan who have been condemned to the gallows/electric chair/needle so many times I can't count them all. And don't forget the wacky Wackers, who have been accused of everything from doing the crimes to themselves, old man Wacker attacking his wife, to even one of their kids trying to get an early inheritance.

Those are just a few, and none of them have been convicted of any of the crimes that we've "tried" them for and "convicted" them of. Not to mention, openly stating which form of punishment we believe they deserve for their "crimes".

If it gets as serious as persuing legal action against us, we can be tracked through our ISPs if we are posting from home, and be easily identified. Once the first person gets convicted for posting that they think Joe Schmoe is as "guilty as homemade sin", that's it. I'm unplugging from the net and going back to playing solitaire.

And what do you base that on? Do you have some inside information on what investigation was done into his history as a cop?

we could both easily ask the Atlantic City Police about the investigation and find out if there was an investigation into Gary Grant's background or if Gary Grant has received complaints or reprimands . Who knows what they would give us, but you never know. Your a lawyer, you probably have more pull with a police department than I would.

One other reason why I think police corruption might be a strong possibility is the fact that Boo Mason(sp?) was so quickly railroaded into a confession.

It seemed a lot like the cops were looking for a very quick way to end the case, based on no evidence on Boo. That interregation was either handled poorly or those detectives were told to bring a quick close to the investigation. Boo seems a perfect target in my opinion. ******** boy takes the rap, he goes to a mental home or nothing at all. Gary is happy knowing that his son;s killer is found. Gary doesn;t blame Boo because of his mental incapacity, no need to investigate anybody else.

a nice, quick, clean case.

Those are just a few, and none of them have been convicted of any of the crimes that we've "tried" them for and "convicted" them of. Not to mention, openly stating which form of punishment we believe they deserve for their "crimes".

If it gets as serious as persuing legal action against us, we can be tracked through our ISPs if we are posting from home, and be easily identified. Once the first person gets convicted for posting that they think Joe Schmoe is as "guilty as homemade sin", that's it. I'm unplugging from the net and going back to playing solitaire.

Heck Paul Pollis, could rack up lawsuits against the whole board!

That could keep him in cleaning materials for years. :lol:

i know we all like to play detective on this board, but I have not lost the site that everything on this board is speculation and theory tossing. Regardless of anyone';s background, were all pretty much playing detective, were not real sleuths.

This board is pure fun and joy for people who share mutual joy of Unsolved Mysteries

I seriously doubt any of us will actually personally solve any of these cases.

Personally yuppielawyer if your looking to solve cases for real, Websleuths.com might be a better choice, if your not already on them.

Holy crap! I forgot about paul pollis. lol I think he'd have a case against at least 80% of the posters on this board.

And you're right... I bet he's greedy. He wouldn't want us put in jail. He'd want us to pay punitive damages so he could afford to stay stocked up on those cleaning supplies.

You can't be sued for expressing your opinion, however bad it is. :D

Mike Morris struck me as being a flat out liar. He called Mary's cellphone and it range for four minutes straight? Yeah right. :rolleyes: It didn't help that he would look away during his interview.

Donovan Jacobs also didn't have any credibility in my mind. He sounded unsure of himself during his interview. It was as if he was trying to figure out what lie to spew against Doyle Wheeler.

I'm glad someone mentioned Chip Richard. He and Leonard Rizzo should win awards for barely giving any eye contact during their interviews.

I have a couple, not sure if they've already been discussed.

1. The Husband (Ex Husband?) of the Woman who's Skull was "placed" in the Garden of the Mexican Restaurant.

2. That dimwit Mexican Cop / Law Enforcement official (Whatever he was) in the story of the Young Man who was struck down by a Car while running across the Freeway on the US / Mexican Border. Their whole Police department screams of corruption and I didn't believe one word that came out of his mouth during the interview.

3. Honourable Mention - Anyone who uses a word like "Circlestantial Evidence" when declaring their so called innocence during an update.
:triplets

I have a couple, not sure if they've already been discussed.

1. The Husband (Ex Husband?) of the Woman who's Skull was "placed" in the Garden of the Mexican Restaurant.

2. That dimwit Mexican Cop / Law Enforcement official (Whatever he was) in the story of the Young Man who was struck down by a Car while running across the Freeway on the US / Mexican Border. Their whole Police department screams of corruption and I didn't believe one word that came out of his mouth during the interview.

3. Honourable Mention - Anyone who uses a word like "Circlestantial Evidence" when declaring their so called innocence during an update.
:triplets

1 was Don Sherman who has been discussed. I didn't believe Ed Carter in the prostitute killings but from the same case I believed Tammy Paplar.

I also didn't believe Darley Routier. I think she had an accomplice but staged it herself to look like a victim.

2. That dimwit Mexican Cop / Law Enforcement official (Whatever he was) in the story of the Young Man who was struck down by a Car while running across the Freeway on the US / Mexican Border. Their whole Police department screams of corruption and I didn't believe one word that came out of his mouth during the interview.

:triplets

Patrick Kelly. That poor kid. Every time I see that LE official from Mexico during that segment I get so angry. He must have thought UM viewers and Patrick's family were idiots. I can't believe he suggested that someone using Patrick's ATM card after he was already in a coma doesn't suggest foul play.

Patrick Kelly. That poor kid. Every time I see that LE official from Mexico during that segment I get so angry. He must have thought UM viewers and Patrick's family were idiots. I can't believe he suggested that someone using Patrick's ATM card after he was already in a coma doesn't suggest foul play.


Patrick Kelly and Andre Jones are two of my favourite underrated UM cases that aren't discussed much around here and I feel so bad for their parents who've both had police corruption stand in the way of them learning the truth about their sons' deaths.

I get just as angry watching the medical examiner in the Jones segment give such a half-assed explanation about how Andre could have possibly committed suicide by hanging himself eight feet off the ground with his shoelaces :mad: . That liar also must set some sort of record for blinking during an UM interview.

Here's a fairly long list of people, some already mentioned and some not, split up into three parts (people I definitely believe, people I definitely don't believe, and people I'm not sure about, along with explanation as to why I think what I do).

Definitely believe:

Alfredo Newball - There just didn't seem to be much that pointed to him being involved, and the other theories presented did not seem at all far-fetched.

Glen Consagra - I haven't seen this case that many times, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of truly damning evidence against him, and at least I thought he seemed pretty sincere in his interview.

John Branion - I've always been pretty staunch about this one. About 90% of the evidence and testimony presented in the segment strongly argues against him being the killer, and I think that a lot of people who probably don't really know what happened probably had it in for him just because he was a doctor for members of the Black Panthers. You have to remember that racially-motivated hatred was through the roof at the time.

Stuart Heaton - I know I'm swimming against the tide on this one, but I just didn't get a killer vibe off of him, I think his claim that someone in his profession would regularly end up cutting themselves is a perfectly legitimate one, it didn't seem to be made clear why some of the people against him seemed to not like him, I thought that his mother seemed sincere, and I thought that both the victim's stepmother and the prosecuting attorney seemed a little too sure of themselves despite several circumstances that might cast reasonable doubt.

Johnny Lee Wilson - The circumstances here are saddening but unfortunately all-too common. Basically a classic case of "respected pillar of the community is murdered. Police having difficulty finding a good suspect, so they figure, let's say that this ******** guy did it. He'll be too damn scared of us to fight it, and maybe we can even trick him into actually believing that he did it."

Michael Self - Out of all the inmates I've seen on the show who claim innocence, he's definitely among the top 5 most believable.

Jeff Oberholtzer - I never understood why this guy was ever considered a suspect in the first place, and I can't say that I was in any way surprised when the no-solve update was shown stating that he was no longer a suspect.

The Dowalibys -They just seemed like genuinely nice people, and some of the evidence used to initially convict David Dowaliby was weak at best to purely laughable at worst (especially the "large nose" incident). Plus, I didn't like that prosecuting attorney or police chief or whoever that guy at the end was. He seemed unwilling to accept the fact that he might be wrong.

Colleen Ritter - As one person said before, why in the world was her name even brought up in this forum in the first place?

The Tallmans - I know ghost stories can be hard to believe, but in most ways, they seemed like a pretty normal family. Though, to the credit of someone who was less forgiving of them, a ghost story does seem like one of the least likely type of segments where people would want to keep their faces hidden.

Curtis Heck - I believe that Curtis may have been indirectly responsible for Kenneth Ingy's death, however I don't believe that he had any murderous intentions, I believe he probably felt bad about having knocked Kenneth unconscious, and I think it's probably likely that he was the one who turned off the truck's engine in a possible attempt to keep him from dying.

Michael Martin - He may not be perfect, but he's one of the first people to admit that about himself, and as I often say, just because you broke the law once doesn't mean you did it again, and I think that the evidence pointing to innocence in this case is much stronger than that which might indicate otherwise, and the victim, Doyle, is, at least in my opinion, one of the most hateful and dislikeable people ever on the show.

Paul Freshour - I know that it's impossible to read people's minds unless you're a psychic, but I personally think that after having seen and heard this guy in his interview, it's really hard not to believe him.

Rob Shafer - This guy just seemed really genuine to me, and out of all the "boyfriends possibly suspected of killing their girlfriends" that I've ever seen on the show, there wasn't a single thing about him or his story that seemed the least bit odd or pretentious.

Frederick Young - Another guy who seems very sincere, even with his past legal troubles, and I thought quite the opposite about his brother. His brother's emotions on the talk show seemed wooden and pretentious, and even the accomplice (who would likely have nothing to gain since he got a 20 year sentence) insists that Frederick Young is innocent.

Larry Race - Another guy who admits he's made some mistakes, but seems sincere in his insistence that he's not guilty of murder, and has support from both sides of his family, and the prosecutor in this case is another one of those major hard-heads that I just can't bring myself to like.

Darlie Routier - I know this is one of the more controversial cases, with strong argument on both sides, but it seems to me that she would have had to do an awful lot (as well as know an awful lot about crime scene investigation) to stage such an incident herself (and her husband is not a suspect in the case). And a question that was posed in the segment that keeps coming up for me over and over again is why, if she was after life insurance money, didn't she kill her husband, who was worth hundreds of thousands of dollars more than the kids? And the hair that was determined to belong to a Rowlett police officer; I'm wondering how she would ever come into possession of that in the first place?

Wayne Hecker - I know I'm probably one of his few supporters, but at least from viewing the segment, the case against him doesn't seem that strong, and I think that his cocky attitude is probably out of some anger and annoyance about having the finger pointed him.
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People I definitely DO NOT believe:

Chad Noe - The guy really makes me want to smash the TV when I see him on it. He practically confesses and then has the nerve to say, "not me. I wouldn't ever do something like that." I think his mother was also involved. To be honest, however, I've always kind of been on the fence about his grandmother. I'm not saying she's absolutely innocent, but if she was dropped off at home prior to Wendy, Cynthia and Lisa Renee being kicked out at the Wal-Mart, it kind of seems unclear as to what, if any part, she might have had in the disappearance.

Stephen Marfeo - In all honesty, the first bunch of times I saw this segment, I was actually leaning more towards him not being guilty, but then when I first saw the text update from 1999, it pretty much changed my opinion of him right away.

Mark Nichols - Another scumbag who practically confesses to something during the interview and then tries to make light of it. I wonder if they ever did do any digging at the town dump. Might not be a bad place to look.

Tommy Zeigler - I know this guy has some supporters, but I honestly think his account of what happened is so pathetic that I actually surprised that he's still alive at this point.

Larry Gibson - At first, I was leaning the other way, but with repeated viewings of this segment, I began to realize just how utterly emotionless he was. However, one thing that I still believe in strongly in this case is that the actual death was not pre-meditated and most likely not even intentional.

Sam Patel - Creep with a capital C. Much of his behavior is disturbing, and he seems almost taunting about giving up the shirt. "If they just ask reeeeeeel nice, I be sooooo glad to hand it over.

Franklin Floyd - Without question, one of the most sick and twisted people ever to appear on the show, and the question of what happened to Michael Hughes is honestly not even the most disturbing aspect of the case in my opinion. To me, I think discovering the origins of his so-called daughter/wife would be even scarier.

Paul Pollis - Not only a liar, but not a very good one, either. I just like a clean house - WTF? By the way, I did read something a few years ago that I found kind of disturbing. It might not change the fact that he's most likely guilty, but I was still shocked. Apparently, Charlotte Nagi (Charlotte Pollis's mother, interviewed in the segment) was arrested a few years ago for abducting the Pollis children.

Judy Groezinger - Seen buying the murder weapon. Fingerprints found at the scene. "Comes out" not long after. Definitely doesn't point to somebody being innocent.

Leonard Rizzo - Like someone said before, if everything that this guy has going against him (and might I add, beating up another woman he started seeing) isn't enough to get him put away forever, then what the hell is?

Joe Wampler - How a sherriff can do what he did and then have the guts to appear on the segment smiling and acting all casual is very beyond me.
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People I'm honestly not sure about:

Jule Caylor - Without question, this is one weird dude that you probably wouldn't want to be friends with, but, at least from viewing the segment, it also doesn't seem like there's a whole lot of hard evidence that actually points to him being the killer, either.

Bob Hall - In all probability, based on the facts presented in the segment, he probably had something to do with his wife's death, but he seemed nice in his interview, and he often spoke positively of his wife. To me, it seemed like they were a couple who had their share of problems, but seemed to have their share of good times as well.

Sarah Powell - I don't think that this girl had any evil intentions, nor am I absolutely discounting the possibility that what she said happened actually happened, but there's just something a bit odd about the whole thing that makes me wonder what exactly is at the center of it all.

Curtis Croft - I believe that he probably knew more than he was telling, but I also have no reason to believe that he was in any way involved in the attack itself.

Christie Mutzfeld - This is one where I think the truth lies somewhere between what she's saying and what Todd Kelley's parents are saying. I don't think that she was in on any plot to kill him, nor do I believe that she was a willing participant in any part of it, and if she did have any after-involvement, I'm guessing that she was probably intimidated into it by her other boyfriend.

Etta Smith - This was the woman whose psychic vision literally led her right to a dead body, and who went to jail for a short time because of it. She seems like a quiet, unassuming woman who probably wouldn't be mixed up in anything like that, but it's still eerie thinking about what exactly led her to finding that body.

Christina O'Donnell - Mother of abducted Lauren Jackson. There were two witnesses, one who's sure that she saw Lauren being abducted by a stranger, another just as sure that she saw Christina giving Lauren away. There has been some speculation over the years that these witnesses may have been mistaken about who the little girl was that they saw, but something about Christina herself seemed to strike me in an unusual and not necessarily good way.

Robert Webster - Marilyn "Niqui" McCown's fiancee. There didn't seem to be any truly damning evidence against him, but some of his behavior following the disappearance did seem unusual, and if nothing else, it was revealed that he's known to have a bit of a temper.

I think Sarah Powell is believable. It's just a really strange case...

I have to disagree about Michael Martin, McBeavis. He seemed to me to be a downright, flat-out liar. I could understand Doyle's attitude after all he had been through and actually really liked him and found him sincere. I definitely agree with your "do not believe" list, except for Ziegler, who I'm still pretty on the fence about.

And I absolutely agree about Colleen Ritter. She's one of my favorite interviewees. I found her to be incredibly strong and inspiring and believed her 100%. I've heard some people mention they didn't find her to be "upset" enough, but some people are able to handle their emotions very well. I found her to be quite impacted by all that had happened, yet she was strong enough to handle the interview.

I have to disagree about Michael Martin, McBeavis. He seemed to me to be a downright, flat-out liar. I could understand Doyle's attitude after all he had been through and actually really liked him and found him sincere. I definitely agree with your "do not believe" list, except for Ziegler, who I'm still pretty on the fence about.

And I absolutely agree about Colleen Ritter. She's one of my favorite interviewees. I found her to be incredibly strong and inspiring and believed her 100%. I've heard some people mention they didn't find her to be "upset" enough, but some people are able to handle their emotions very well. I found her to be quite impacted by all that had happened, yet she was strong enough to handle the interview.

Well, we do all have our opinions, but I really do not like Doyle. I thinks he seems like a hothead with an attitude problem.

Well, we do all have our opinions, but I really do not like Doyle. I thinks he seems like a hothead with an attitude problem.

For sure.:) I'm glad on this forum most of the time we can all discuss our different views without having huge fights (though I have heard of some pretty bad threads in the past).

Sarah Powell is a very intriguing case. When I was younger I tended to believe her, but I've become more "on the fence" recently. If anything, I believe that she is withholding some info.

I've always believed Tommy Zeigler was telling the truth...although at first when I was reading the book "Fatal Flaw" about his case I thought he was guilty about halfway through and it wasn't until the end that it all started to click and make sense. Also always thought Stuart Heaton really came off as honest and would have no motive to murder someone as far as I could tell based off of the segment. Curtis Heck was another one who I thought was pretty honest. I also believed the guy who was accused of attempting to murder his wife in a church office with a hammer. The wife survived and said something to the effect of, "Even if he isn't guilty he deserves to rot in jail for cheating on me!" Always found that kind of funny.

The husband in the Caylor dissapearance (forget their names). The wife supposedly went on a train....and was never seen again.

That dude is SO guilty and I have no doubts in my mind he killed his wife. 100% sure about this.

The husband in the Caylor dissapearance (forget their names). The wife supposedly went on a train....and was never seen again.

That dude is SO guilty and I have no doubts in my mind he killed his wife. 100% sure about this.


Oh yeah... Dottie and Jule Caylor. If you do a search on the forum here, you will find tons and tons of info on that one. It seems that most of us think the husband is responsible for her disappearance, but there are others who make a pretty good argument that points toward his innocence.

Betty Cash (from the Cash Landrum UFO incident)

I really feel bad for her because of the radiation poisoning she suffered from after the incident. This is good enough evidence for me that the incident really happened, that she, Vickie and Colbie really saw some strange flying object that when they came into contact, harmed them. I also belive them when they said they saw military choppers flying overhead, as if searching for something.

What I really didn't agree with was how Betty wanted to blame the incident on the Air Force by suing them. She failed to show proper evidence in court, and I agreed with the court's decision. I saw some problems with her reasoning:
1) Even though there were military aircraft present, it doesn't mean it belonged to the Air Force, they aren't the only branch of the military with aircraft. In fact, some branches have more aircraft.
2) Just because there were military aircraft present, it doesn't mean the diamond-shaped object they came across belonged to the military.
3) If the object were military, it could have been some spycraft sent from some foreign nation such as the Soviet Union or Cuba. Don't forget, a similar UFO incident happened thousands of miles away at a USAF base near London, England around the time of the Cash-Landrum incident. There has to be some kind of connection, in my opinion.

I don't rule out the possibility that the object came from our own military, but there is no solid evidence that makes me focus on that sole possiblity.

Here's whom the producers (and maybe law enforcement) expected us to believe that I did NOT believe- Melody's friend who drove the get away car! I can't think of her last name but remember Melody from Texas whose boyfriend was in prison who kept making collect calls to her house (that she supposedly was unable to stop?) and who got her to 'persuade' a friend to drive up to the prison wall? Well, according to the friend, Melody persuaded her to drive her car up to the prison wall and wait there for the boyfriend (Chad?) even though there was really no legitimate reason for the friend to drive a car up to the prison wall nor wait around for someone to jump over a fence! Anyway, according to the friend, Chad immediately shoved her out of the car and drove away with Melody and Melody supposedly had a 'helpless' look to her. First off, why would someone not wanting to help someone escape prison drive up to a prison wall and wait for them to jump off the wall? That makes absolutely no sense! Secondly, even she somehow was tricked into driving her car to that spot , why wouldn't she immediately lock their car doors,drive away, honk the horn and try to alert the guards to the escaped prisoner if she in fact had no interest in helping a prisoner escape? Third, considering how this person did a great deal TO help Melody and her boyfriend with the escape, why would anyone think she has any credibility re Melody's role- much less her own instead of trying to shift the blame entirely to a known prisoner even though she wound up dumped out of her own car? Sorry, of all the witnesses on Melody's behalf, she came across to me as the least credible even less so than Melody's seemingly ostrich-headed dad!

Here's a fairly long list of people, some already mentioned and some not, split up into three parts (people I definitely believe, people I definitely don't believe, and people I'm not sure about, along with explanation as to why I think what I do).

Definitely believe:

Alfredo Newball - There just didn't seem to be much that pointed to him being involved, and the other theories presented did not seem at all far-fetched.

Glen Consagra - I haven't seen this case that many times, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of truly damning evidence against him, and at least I thought he seemed pretty sincere in his interview.

John Branion - I've always been pretty staunch about this one. About 90% of the evidence and testimony presented in the segment strongly argues against him being the killer, and I think that a lot of people who probably don't really know what happened probably had it in for him just because he was a doctor for members of the Black Panthers. You have to remember that racially-motivated hatred was through the roof at the time.

Stuart Heaton - I know I'm swimming against the tide on this one, but I just didn't get a killer vibe off of him, I think his claim that someone in his profession would regularly end up cutting themselves is a perfectly legitimate one, it didn't seem to be made clear why some of the people against him seemed to not like him, I thought that his mother seemed sincere, and I thought that both the victim's stepmother and the prosecuting attorney seemed a little too sure of themselves despite several circumstances that might cast reasonable doubt.

Johnny Lee Wilson - The circumstances here are saddening but unfortunately all-too common. Basically a classic case of "respected pillar of the community is murdered. Police having difficulty finding a good suspect, so they figure, let's say that this ******** guy did it. He'll be too damn scared of us to fight it, and maybe we can even trick him into actually believing that he did it."

Michael Self - Out of all the inmates I've seen on the show who claim innocence, he's definitely among the top 5 most believable.

Jeff Oberholtzer - I never understood why this guy was ever considered a suspect in the first place, and I can't say that I was in any way surprised when the no-solve update was shown stating that he was no longer a suspect.

The Dowalibys -They just seemed like genuinely nice people, and some of the evidence used to initially convict David Dowaliby was weak at best to purely laughable at worst (especially the "large nose" incident). Plus, I didn't like that prosecuting attorney or police chief or whoever that guy at the end was. He seemed unwilling to accept the fact that he might be wrong.

Colleen Ritter - As one person said before, why in the world was her name even brought up in this forum in the first place?

The Tallmans - I know ghost stories can be hard to believe, but in most ways, they seemed like a pretty normal family. Though, to the credit of someone who was less forgiving of them, a ghost story does seem like one of the least likely type of segments where people would want to keep their faces hidden.

Curtis Heck - I believe that Curtis may have been indirectly responsible for Kenneth Ingy's death, however I don't believe that he had any murderous intentions, I believe he probably felt bad about having knocked Kenneth unconscious, and I think it's probably likely that he was the one who turned off the truck's engine in a possible attempt to keep him from dying.

Michael Martin - He may not be perfect, but he's one of the first people to admit that about himself, and as I often say, just because you broke the law once doesn't mean you did it again, and I think that the evidence pointing to innocence in this case is much stronger than that which might indicate otherwise, and the victim, Doyle, is, at least in my opinion, one of the most hateful and dislikeable people ever on the show.

Paul Freshour - I know that it's impossible to read people's minds unless you're a psychic, but I personally think that after having seen and heard this guy in his interview, it's really hard not to believe him.

Rob Shafer - This guy just seemed really genuine to me, and out of all the "boyfriends possibly suspected of killing their girlfriends" that I've ever seen on the show, there wasn't a single thing about him or his story that seemed the least bit odd or pretentious.

Frederick Young - Another guy who seems very sincere, even with his past legal troubles, and I thought quite the opposite about his brother. His brother's emotions on the talk show seemed wooden and pretentious, and even the accomplice (who would likely have nothing to gain since he got a 20 year sentence) insists that Frederick Young is innocent.

Larry Race - Another guy who admits he's made some mistakes, but seems sincere in his insistence that he's not guilty of murder, and has support from both sides of his family, and the prosecutor in this case is another one of those major hard-heads that I just can't bring myself to like.

Darlie Routier - I know this is one of the more controversial cases, with strong argument on both sides, but it seems to me that she would have had to do an awful lot (as well as know an awful lot about crime scene investigation) to stage such an incident herself (and her husband is not a suspect in the case). And a question that was posed in the segment that keeps coming up for me over and over again is why, if she was after life insurance money, didn't she kill her husband, who was worth hundreds of thousands of dollars more than the kids? And the hair that was determined to belong to a Rowlett police officer; I'm wondering how she would ever come into possession of that in the first place?

Wayne Hecker - I know I'm probably one of his few supporters, but at least from viewing the segment, the case against him doesn't seem that strong, and I think that his cocky attitude is probably out of some anger and annoyance about having the finger pointed him.
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People I definitely DO NOT believe:

Chad Noe - The guy really makes me want to smash the TV when I see him on it. He practically confesses and then has the nerve to say, "not me. I wouldn't ever do something like that." I think his mother was also involved. To be honest, however, I've always kind of been on the fence about his grandmother. I'm not saying she's absolutely innocent, but if she was dropped off at home prior to Wendy, Cynthia and Lisa Renee being kicked out at the Wal-Mart, it kind of seems unclear as to what, if any part, she might have had in the disappearance.

Stephen Marfeo - In all honesty, the first bunch of times I saw this segment, I was actually leaning more towards him not being guilty, but then when I first saw the text update from 1999, it pretty much changed my opinion of him right away.

Mark Nichols - Another scumbag who practically confesses to something during the interview and then tries to make light of it. I wonder if they ever did do any digging at the town dump. Might not be a bad place to look.

Tommy Zeigler - I know this guy has some supporters, but I honestly think his account of what happened is so pathetic that I actually surprised that he's still alive at this point.

Larry Gibson - At first, I was leaning the other way, but with repeated viewings of this segment, I began to realize just how utterly emotionless he was. However, one thing that I still believe in strongly in this case is that the actual death was not pre-meditated and most likely not even intentional.

Sam Patel - Creep with a capital C. Much of his behavior is disturbing, and he seems almost taunting about giving up the shirt. "If they just ask reeeeeeel nice, I be sooooo glad to hand it over.

Franklin Floyd - Without question, one of the most sick and twisted people ever to appear on the show, and the question of what happened to Michael Hughes is honestly not even the most disturbing aspect of the case in my opinion. To me, I think discovering the origins of his so-called daughter/wife would be even scarier.

Paul Pollis - Not only a liar, but not a very good one, either. I just like a clean house - WTF? By the way, I did read something a few years ago that I found kind of disturbing. It might not change the fact that he's most likely guilty, but I was still shocked. Apparently, Charlotte Nagi (Charlotte Pollis's mother, interviewed in the segment) was arrested a few years ago for abducting the Pollis children.

Judy Groezinger - Seen buying the murder weapon. Fingerprints found at the scene. "Comes out" not long after. Definitely doesn't point to somebody being innocent.

Leonard Rizzo - Like someone said before, if everything that this guy has going against him (and might I add, beating up another woman he started seeing) isn't enough to get him put away forever, then what the hell is?

Joe Wampler - How a sherriff can do what he did and then have the guts to appear on the segment smiling and acting all casual is very beyond me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
People I'm honestly not sure about:

Jule Caylor - Without question, this is one weird dude that you probably wouldn't want to be friends with, but, at least from viewing the segment, it also doesn't seem like there's a whole lot of hard evidence that actually points to him being the killer, either.

Bob Hall - In all probability, based on the facts presented in the segment, he probably had something to do with his wife's death, but he seemed nice in his interview, and he often spoke positively of his wife. To me, it seemed like they were a couple who had their share of problems, but seemed to have their share of good times as well.

Sarah Powell - I don't think that this girl had any evil intentions, nor am I absolutely discounting the possibility that what she said happened actually happened, but there's just something a bit odd about the whole thing that makes me wonder what exactly is at the center of it all.

Curtis Croft - I believe that he probably knew more than he was telling, but I also have no reason to believe that he was in any way involved in the attack itself.

Christie Mutzfeld - This is one where I think the truth lies somewhere between what she's saying and what Todd Kelley's parents are saying. I don't think that she was in on any plot to kill him, nor do I believe that she was a willing participant in any part of it, and if she did have any after-involvement, I'm guessing that she was probably intimidated into it by her other boyfriend.

Etta Smith - This was the woman whose psychic vision literally led her right to a dead body, and who went to jail for a short time because of it. She seems like a quiet, unassuming woman who probably wouldn't be mixed up in anything like that, but it's still eerie thinking about what exactly led her to finding that body.

Christina O'Donnell - Mother of abducted Lauren Jackson. There were two witnesses, one who's sure that she saw Lauren being abducted by a stranger, another just as sure that she saw Christina giving Lauren away. There has been some speculation over the years that these witnesses may have been mistaken about who the little girl was that they saw, but something about Christina herself seemed to strike me in an unusual and not necessarily good way.

Robert Webster - Marilyn "Niqui" McCown's fiancee. There didn't seem to be any truly damning evidence against him, but some of his behavior following the disappearance did seem unusual, and if nothing else, it was revealed that he's known to have a bit of a temper.


The hair that was found on the cut screen at the Routier house that people thought belonged to Darlie but was a Rowlett police officer. You said you were wondering how the officer's hair got there? I think the officer was examining the alleged exit of the intruder when hair fell off her head.


People that I believe on UM

Darlie Lynn Routier

Darlie Kee who is Darlie Lynn's mother.

Darrin Routier, he admitted being involved in insurance scams but I don't believe he hired people to kill his boys for insurance money. If he was going to have his home robbed, he would do it when the family was not home.

Wendy Camps husband Leon and Wendy Camp's mother

Patricia Stallings and her husband David

Jacklyn Dawallaby's parents David and Cynthia

Johnny Lee Wilson

John Purvis

People on UM I do not believe

Chad Noe,Beverly and Ida who is Chad's grandmother.

Stephen Maffeo

Dave Davis, to this day claims, he did not kill his wife Shannon Mohr.

Has anyone mentioned Sheriff Wampler yet? Yeah I know Don Dixon is the main suspect here but Wampler did some crazy things as well. Burning the bed the victim was found on? I'm not a cop and I know that's the last thing you can do. Seems to me Wampler assumed his wife was screwing around and thought there was a possibility that it involved Eric.

Chad Noe is a given. He's lying through his teeth. I mean the guy admitted to it while he was drunk at one point.

Call me crazy, but I'm not totally sure Ida Prewitt was involved in the killings. Oh, I still think Chad and his mother had something to do with it. I think Ida was really dropped off and she'll obviously have the blind faith to believe her own offspring and grandson. So I believe she did not see the murders take place. She might have some assumptions, but I have a hard believing a 70 year old woman would be of much use during a murder. Things can happen, she can get cut, overpowered, she can get a bump on her head, etc. I think they dropped her off so she legitimately did not see what happened. But what a witch though.

Paul Pollis is lying. His mother I don't believe was in on it. She's another woman who will believe anything her son says. She seemed naive. So yeah Paul is guilty as sin, his mother is naive and doesn't know anything first hand.

Larry Gibson. Can anyone believe this guy?

Hmmmmm...................

Jeffrey MacDonald - 50% torn down the middle. There is a confession from a potential killer. There are witnesses that go in his favour. There is motive for the killers. Yet he's behind bars. Who to believe?

Tim McClure - If you ignore the ungodly haircut then you can focus on the case. Tim seemed like a simpleton. Too dumb to get away with a murder. He seemed close to his mother too. A lot doesn't make sense.

David Dowaliby - Okay I know a strong contingent believe he is innocent. I am not so sure. The evidence doesn't scream against him, but I would never rule out the bizarre abduction either. The grandmother not being interviewed is a warning sign too that bothers me. It just seemed like the abduction of Jackie would take an awful lot of work to do when all you had to do was follow her from school. I'm not saying David is involved, I'm just saying I don't think she was abducted from the house.

Seemed truthful...............

Larry Race - It doesn't make sense to kill your wife. Get a divorce. There just didn't seem to be any motive. He was unfaithful, but it doesn't make him a murderer.

Tommy Ziegler - If I were a betting man, he's innocent. Some people give you that "feeling" of a murderer. Tommy did not. Just an opinion.

The person that best stands out in my mind as an individual I made my mind up about immediately after I initially saw the segment and have never wavered on is Judy Groezinger.

I'm almost certain Tim McClure is lying. I would not be surprised at all if he and his wife were implicated.

I don't believe Larry Gibson. A poster a while back mentioned that he/she thought that the death wasn't necessarily premeditated or intentional. I think I can definitely buy that.


I don't think I believe Darlie Routier either.


"Not Sures":

- Wayne Hecker. He definitely resonates with a resentful vibe, but I don't know whether that's because he's irritated at being viewed as a suspect in Tara Breckenridge's murder because he isn't at fault, or because he definitely is.

- Glen Consagra. Absolutely no clue.

- Tommy Ziegler. Again, no clue.

- Jeffery MacDonald. I give up on this one. There's so much finger-pointing, bungled evidence and shoddy investigation, unreliable testimony, inflated ego, and media hype permeating every area of this case I doubt we'll ever really know the full truth.

Has anyone mentioned Sheriff Wampler yet? Yeah I know Don Dixon is the main suspect here but Wampler did some crazy things as well. Burning the bed the victim was found on? I'm not a cop and I know that's the last thing you can do. Seems to me Wampler assumed his wife was screwing around and thought there was a possibility that it involved Eric.

Chad Noe is a given. He's lying through his teeth. I mean the guy admitted to it while he was drunk at one point.

Call me crazy, but I'm not totally sure Ida Prewitt was involved in the killings. Oh, I still think Chad and his mother had something to do with it. I think Ida was really dropped off and she'll obviously have the blind faith to believe her own offspring and grandson. So I believe she did not see the murders take place. She might have some assumptions, but I have a hard believing a 70 year old woman would be of much use during a murder. Things can happen, she can get cut, overpowered, she can get a bump on her head, etc. I think they dropped her off so she legitimately did not see what happened. But what a witch though.

Paul Pollis is lying. His mother I don't believe was in on it. She's another woman who will believe anything her son says. She seemed naive. So yeah Paul is guilty as sin, his mother is naive and doesn't know anything first hand.

Larry Gibson. Can anyone believe this guy?

Hmmmmm...................

Jeffrey MacDonald - 50% torn down the middle. There is a confession from a potential killer. There are witnesses that go in his favour. There is motive for the killers. Yet he's behind bars. Who to believe?

Tim McClure - If you ignore the ungodly haircut then you can focus on the case. Tim seemed like a simpleton. Too dumb to get away with a murder. He seemed close to his mother too. A lot doesn't make sense.

David Dowaliby - Okay I know a strong contingent believe he is innocent. I am not so sure. The evidence doesn't scream against him, but I would never rule out the bizarre abduction either. The grandmother not being interviewed is a warning sign too that bothers me. It just seemed like the abduction of Jackie would take an awful lot of work to do when all you had to do was follow her from school. I'm not saying David is involved, I'm just saying I don't think she was abducted from the house.

Seemed truthful...............

Larry Race - It doesn't make sense to kill your wife. Get a divorce. There just didn't seem to be any motive. He was unfaithful, but it doesn't make him a murderer.

Tommy Ziegler - If I were a betting man, he's innocent. Some people give you that "feeling" of a murderer. Tommy did not. Just an opinion.


So glad somebody finally said something about sheriff Wampler. I'm not downplaying the involvement of Don Dixon, because I definitely believe he was involved in some way, but from the time I first saw this segment, I always thought that Wampler was the most likely of the three suspects, not only because of the whole incident with burning the most important piece of evidence, but also because of the cocky, Chad Noe/Paul Pollis-ish attitude that he had during his interview. Plus, if he was a guy with a temper, he would certainly have had a motive if indeed it turned out that his wife was seeing Eric (which, so far, is still not something that we know the truth about).

Also, I'm very much in agreement about your uncertainty regarding Chad Noe's grandmother. I think Chad and his mother are both undeniably guilty, but his grandmother just doesn't seem to fit into the scenario. First of all, if she was dropped off at her home at a time prior to Wendy, Cynthia, and Lisa Renee being left at Wal-Mart, it seems unclear just exactly how she could have been involved (at least in a hands-on kind of way), and I think that even though she seemed a bit annoyed during her interview, she still didn't actually say anything during it that could be looked at as being all that suspicious. I personally think that Chad and Beverly probably never even told her what really happened, and because of the problem that arose where the day's supposed itinerary could not have possibly fit into the time frame, what I think actually happened is that after dropping Ida at her home, Beverly did not drive Wendy, Cynthia, and Lisa Renee back to their homes, but rather back to wherever Chad was, and it was there at whatever time it may have been, that the three of them probably met their untimely end at the hands of Beverly and Chad.

Finally, regarding David Dowaliby, I do believe that he is innocent, and based on what was said about his mother during the segment, I'm not surprised that she wasn't interviewed. She sounded like some kind of floozy who probably wouldn't be able to offer anything helpful.

Also, I've never really had a good idea on what to make of Tim McClure.

In the defense of what some people said, he came across as a quiet, unintimidating type of guy who did seem very close to his mother, but at the same time, it is rather troublesome trying to comprehend how he managed to canvass pretty much the entire area yet somehow end up missing the actual spot where his mother ended up being found. That part of the whole story is just too weird.

The person that best stands out in my mind as an individual I made my mind up about immediately after I initially saw the segment and have never wavered on is Judy Groezinger.

I'm almost certain Tim McClure is lying. I would not be surprised at all if he and his wife were implicated.

I don't believe Larry Gibson. A poster a while back mentioned that he/she thought that the death wasn't necessarily premeditated or intentional. I think I can definitely buy that.


I don't think I believe Darlie Routier either.


"Not Sures":

- Wayne Hecker. He definitely resonates with a resentful vibe, but I don't know whether that's because he's irritated at being viewed as a suspect in Tara Breckenridge's murder because he isn't at fault, or because he definitely is.

- Glen Consagra. Absolutely no clue.

- Tommy Ziegler. Again, no clue.

- Jeffery MacDonald. I give up on this one. There's so much finger-pointing, bungled evidence and shoddy investigation, unreliable testimony, inflated ego, and media hype permeating every area of this case I doubt we'll ever really know the full truth.

I agree that Judy Groezinger is a lying scum. There is so much that points to her, and she was, like, so out of it in the interview that I can't help but wonder if she only agreed to it just to get herself on TV.

I've never had anything against Wayne Hecker, and I do believe that he was irritated at being considered a suspect.

However, I want to say in the politest way possible that I cannot agree with you on Darlie Routier. Just thinking about the whole scenario and all of the strange little circumstances involved, I think that this woman would probably have to be a well-seasoned crime scene investigation expert just to be able to pull the whole thing off without noticeably bungling something along the way. Plus, a question that comes up again and again is, if she killed for insurance money, why didn't she kill her husband, who was worth about 20 times as much as the kids were?

Finally, regarding David Dowaliby, I do believe that he is innocent, and based on what was said about his mother during the segment, I'm not surprised that she wasn't interviewed. She sounded like some kind of floozy who probably wouldn't be able to offer anything helpful.

Yeah I know I'm usually in the minority on suspecting Dowaliby still. I'm not saying he is involved, but I don't believe Jackie was kidnapped from her house in the middle of the night. Too many things have to be perfect in that scenario. First off, NOBODY has to wake up from a broken window being smashed. Possible? Fine, I'll buy it. Then there has to be insight that the grandmother would be gone that night. Then below the window has to be undisturbed. Then the culprit would have to walk upstairs, wake up NO ONE, go into Jackie's room and remove here without a sound and walk out the front door. Why oh why go to all that trouble of having the possibility of your blood showing up on the broken window? Why roam through the house like a cat burglar when you could take her on her way home from school? It just seems like the hardest possible way to do this.

Granted there is no motive for David killing his own daughter. If I am wrong about my belief that nobody came through the window then I owe David an apology but it just gets me thinking, if this were my situation there would be precious few people that would know my house that well and my mother in law's surroundings. You get the idea that you could narrow it down this way.

Also, I've never really had a good idea on what to make of Tim McClure.

In the defense of what some people said, he came across as a quiet, unintimidating type of guy who did seem very close to his mother, but at the same time, it is rather troublesome trying to comprehend how he managed to canvass pretty much the entire area yet somehow end up missing the actual spot where his mother ended up being found. That part of the whole story is just too weird.

I definitely agree on the assessment of his demeanor. Like you, I also find it difficult to reconcile this with the events that occured beginning the night of his mother's disappearance--the casino parking lot searches, his "discovery" of his mother's purse, and the big one for me: the credit card cancellation discrepancy. Deep down I have great doubts that company representative made that particular mistake. It seems rather far-fetched to me. Despite his seemingly gentle nature, I just can't accept his story as true--there's too much suspicion and coincidence for the span of just a few days after Teri's disappearance and death.

In retrospect, it's sickening to watch Chuck Dixon praising Kevin Hughes for his "fairness" in the latter's segment, when it was revealed later that Dixon was in fact at the center of Hughes' murder. :mad:
He was? I thought another man was convicted of it, but was he also involved? How crazy!

I have to disagree about Michael Martin, McBeavis. He seemed to me to be a downright, flat-out liar. I could understand Doyle's attitude after all he had been through and actually really liked him and found him sincere.

Holy crap, I must have been half-asleep when I wrote this. I got this completely confused with the Doyle WHEELER case, McBeavis, sorry about that! I also agree that Doyle the gas station attendant seemed shifty. I had forgotten the name of the sleazy cop who said Doyle Wheeler was lying and assumed that was Michael Martin. Whoops! But can you blame me how many Doyles are there? :lol:

He was? I thought another man was convicted of it, but was he also involved? How crazy!

Oh yeah. Chuck Dixon masterminded the chart manipulation scheme at Cashbox and ordered the hit on Kevin Hughes as he was worried he would expose the scam, which Kevin had reportedly threatened to do in the days leading up to his death. Richard D'Antonio was the actual hitman. Dixon died of cancer a couple of years before D'Antonio was indicted.

http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/t/story?id=132437&page=1

Oh yeah. Chuck Dixon masterminded the chart manipulation scheme at Cashbox and ordered the hit on Kevin Hughes as he was worried he would expose the scam, which Kevin had reportedly threatened to do in the days leading up to his death. Richard D'Antonio was the actual hitman. Dixon died of cancer a couple of years before D'Antonio was indicted.

http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/t/story?id=132437&page=1

WHOA. I had no idea. I don't think I'm going to be able to watch the segment without wanting to punch the TV when the guy is interviewed now. Thanks for the info!

Great thread!

~Ppl I believe
-Jule Caylor-he seemed like a guy who was out of it so if Dottie left I don't blame her... I don't care for the guy & he's not likeable but I really think he had nothing to do with her disappearance
-Jeff Oberholtzer
-The security guard from the Su Young Kim case I'm horrible with names tonight I just know his last name was Jones lol

Chad Noe is lying obviously
Larry Gibson
His wife was also lying her emotions & body language were just awkward .. then again it might be the nervousness.

Holy crap, I must have been half-asleep when I wrote this. I got this completely confused with the Doyle WHEELER case, McBeavis, sorry about that! I also agree that Doyle the gas station attendant seemed shifty. I had forgotten the name of the sleazy cop who said Doyle Wheeler was lying and assumed that was Michael Martin. Whoops! But can you blame me how many Doyles are there? :lol:

Don't worry. It's no problem. I've actually only seen the Doyle Wheeler case once (since it was never shown on Lifetime, which is where I got most of my UM exposure growing up), but if I had to take a guess, I would say that Doyle Wheeler is most likely telling the truth and that Donovan Jacobs (the other cop) is probably behind the attack on Wheeler, or at least knows a lot more about it than he's admitting.

As for Doyle from the Michael Martin case, shifty is definitely an apt word to describe him, and besides his attitude problem, another thing that in my opinion definitely casts doubt upon Doyle's credibility (and that I wasn't even aware of until I started perusing some other threads pertaining to that case) was his reaction to the photo line-up that included a picture of Martin. Doyle initially pointed to a photo of Martin and says with a bit of hesitation "I THINK that's the guy" then barely a second later, changes that to "I'm SURE that's the guy." I find that a bit odd. Also, while I'm not as knowledgeable about certain police procedures, according to some posters who are more knowledgeable about such things, there were apparently some flaws in the way the photo line-up was presented in the first place. Some of them have said that based on certain circumstances, Martin's photo probably shouldn't have been in the line-up in the first place, and that it was also considerably larger than any of the other pictures shown (this having been done for no apparent reason and it definitely makes no sense to me).

In conclusion, Michael Martin spent a good number of years in jail, was eventually released, and as far as I know, has not gotten into any more trouble with the law, so even if it turns out he actually was guilty, he's been punished enough by now, and by this point I can only hope that Doyle would be mature enough to agree with that.

The plant manager in the Dale Kerstetter case. He seemed perfectly alright with letting Dale be an insider who orchestrated the platinum theft. His attitude and description of Dale makes me think Dale would be the perfect fall guy in case someone higher was in on it. Honestly, I think if the theft was an inside job it was by someone from the ownership or management; they were experiencing financial troubles much greater than what the investigator in the segment described. They probably organized the heist so they could collect insurance money.

The plant manager in the Dale Kerstetter case. He seemed perfectly alright with letting Dale be an insider who orchestrated the platinum theft. His attitude and description of Dale makes me think Dale would be the perfect fall guy in case someone higher was in on it. Honestly, I think if the theft was an inside job it was by someone from the ownership or management; they were experiencing financial troubles much greater than what the investigator in the segment described. They probably organized the heist so they could collect insurance money.
THIS. One of the other employers seemed just fine, but this guy in question is awful. 100% lack of concern for this missing man and automatic certainty that Kerstetter was involved? Doesn't seem like a legitimate attitude to have.

Not sure whether this should be under worst segments or where, but here is as good a place as any.

The one I wonder if it had any truth to it at all was the lady with strange powers which electrified her body, so she zapped the car keys, blew up the microwave oven, and my favorite was when she was ironing with steam coming out and her mother told her to plug in the iron! I still think of her sometimes while ironing or if I hit the wrong button on the microwave.

The thing I remember on the microwave is how embarrassed the older of her two sons (one was 9 - 11 years and the other a baby) was while explaining the microwave incident. Always made me wonder if he was just shy on camera or embarrassed to be repeating stuff he knew was total BS. Some people will say anything to get on TV and drag their kids along with them!

Oh yeah. Chuck Dixon masterminded the chart manipulation scheme at Cashbox and ordered the hit on Kevin Hughes as he was worried he would expose the scam, which Kevin had reportedly threatened to do in the days leading up to his death. Richard D'Antonio was the actual hitman. Dixon died of cancer a couple of years before D'Antonio was indicted.

http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/t/story?id=132437&page=1

It's surreal and infuriating to watch his interview snippets now. The first one where he mentions Kevin was the best chart worker Cashbox ever had. The second one where he "theorizes" that an aspiring musician wrote a song that didn't become a hit and probably blamed Kevin as a result so he killed him.

It's also painful to hear one of the investigators say Kevin's job wasn't important enough to kill him over. That must have been music to Dixon's ears (so to speak) and he had to have felt in the clear right away.

I'm kind of surprised Amazon didn't mention this in their text update. They have been really on top of things and current with their updates (for example, they have provided two updates for the Lisa Ziegert case after all the developments of this past year) yet they make absolutely no mention of Dixon's involvement here.

Harvey McCloud with the fake Indian bomb guy wasn't really convincing-nobody saw this person other than at the bank. Did he really kidnap Harvey or were they in on it together? There is no mention of how much was taken but if we are to believe the show it was a filled briefcase. Was this a 50/50 split for Harvey's pension fund? Why the hell would a decade long cab driver pick up somebody looking like that? Why would he agree to take only half the fare for a near hour long ride & drive into the middle of nowhere for the other half?

The Person who said they saw Brad Bishop and asked him "you're Brad Bishop right?" and he supposedly said "God no! " and stormed out.

That person or really any person who claims to have seen him in years following the murders.

Another one came to mind. Dr. Branion. I’m still torn if he might’ve hired someone to do the job but I don’t think he did it

The Person who said they saw Brad Bishop and asked him "you're Brad Bishop right?" and he supposedly said "God no! " and stormed out.

That person or really any person who claims to have seen him in years following the murders.

Always thought he just saw some down & out drunk guy/mental case who bore a vague resemblance. I think the guy believes he saw him though rather than making it up.

The Person who said they saw Brad Bishop and asked him "you're Brad Bishop right?" and he supposedly said "God no! " and stormed out.

That person or really any person who claims to have seen him in years following the murders.

not necessarily. considering he hasn't been found, right now anything is in the round of possibility.

Really not believing anyone in the Amelia Earhart case. Who did they have mistaken for her, if there actually was anyone? What other white woman with a plane would have been there? What were they smoking, or did they just want to be on TV?

I never believed the young woman who left her baby outside the porta potty at the Farmers Market. I am not sure why; I can't believe anyone would be THAT STUPID to not bring your baby inside with you. I would not care if I had to leave the door ajar (says the girl who hikes and pees in the forest on a regular basis.) But really? Your mom was right down the way? Something about that never added up to me.

NEVER EVER believed Mullet Man who got married in Vegas and his mom disappeared. "The Holy Spirit was guiding me...." Oh shut up you eight foot tall murderer.

Oh shut up you eight foot tall murderer.

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

"Eight Foot Tall Murderer" would be a great band name :lol:

Harvey McCloud with the fake Indian bomb guy wasn't really convincing-nobody saw this person other than at the bank. Did he really kidnap Harvey or were they in on it together? There is no mention of how much was taken but if we are to believe the show it was a filled briefcase. Was this a 50/50 split for Harvey's pension fund? Why the hell would a decade long cab driver pick up somebody looking like that? Why would he agree to take only half the fare for a near hour long ride & drive into the middle of nowhere for the other half?

that's definitely a poor disguise they used in the re-enactment. now when I see it I think of sacha baron cohen for some reason...


anyway for me it is always mark Nichols. he just sounds like a drunk kid that is lying to him mom after he walks in the house hammered smelling of boos. for me it's like why even go on the show? good lord!