I was wondering what was wrong with Vivian Vance and William Farwley

Simple they hated each other off camera.

what did Vivian do to get William mad at her off camera.

William was a drunk and Viv also felt he was much too old to play her husband

How old were both William and Vivian.

He 64, and she 42 (?) Quick answer without checking.

and I always throught that Vivian had Trouble with Lucy.

As mentioned above Vivian thought William was a drunk, and he thought she was a snob, so they never got along. After the show was cancelled, Desi Arnez wanted to a Fred and Ethel spinnoff but neither Vance or Frawley wanted to work with each other again, so there that went.

I thought Frawley did want to do the spinoff-- just for the money. And then he hated Vance more than ever because she refused to consider working with him in another series, thus costing him $$.

I remember reading (it may have been on this board a few years ago) that they did get along with each other at first, but in an interview when Bill was asked about Viv he said something like "She's a lovely woman from Albuquerque who should have stayed there" and that comment started the whole thing.

Actually Larry that comment about Vivian that Frawley made was from a TV Guide article about Bill from 1960 or 1961 when he was on the cover for My Three Sons. I have the issue but haven't looked at it for some time, but that quote I remember reading from that article and thinking, "So this is where that came from."

My understanding has always been that in the beginning of the series the two did get along but one day Bill overheard Vivian say something about how she couldn't believe people who think she was married to someone that old. According to how I have come to understand it, that started comment started to whole thing.

The spin off was suppose to come after the Ricardos moved to Connecticut. Vivian refused to do it for any amount because she could not bare to work alone with him on a weekly basis. She said she use to go through the script and pray that there wasn't a scene of them in bed together.

I think over the years the "feud" has become Hollywood legend, and the stories about it keeps growing. I am sure that they hated each other (two people who like each other don't call one another "That old coot" and a "dried up old [insert cruel word here]") but in one of the books about Vance and Frawley one of the kids from My Three Sons said that he felt by that time the two of them enjoyed the "feud" and getting back at one another more than anything. He tells a story about throwing a bunch of empty film cans onto the set when Vivian was rehearsing The Lucy Show. (Though the feud did prevent Frawley from making a guest appearance on the show until after Viv left.)

Just my take on things and how I understand them.

Thanks for the clarification, Benno. My mis-quote was probably from one of your old posts. I just remembered the circumstances incorrectly. :eek:

and I always throught that Vivian had Trouble with Lucy.
She probably did, but it always sounded to me like typical girlfriend spats. Women love each other, then they're cruel to each other, then they are best friends again. I don't think if they had any lingering, deep-seeded problems, Viv would have done The Lucy Show and Here's Lucy.

Actually Larry that comment about Vivian that Frawley made was from a TV Guide article about Bill from 1960 or 1961 when he was on the cover for My Three Sons. I have the issue but haven't looked at it for some time, but that quote I remember reading from that article and thinking, "So this is where that came from."

My understanding has always been that in the beginning of the series the two did get along but one day Bill overheard Vivian say something about how she couldn't believe people who think she was married to someone that old. According to how I have come to understand it, that started comment started to whole thing.

The spin off was suppose to come after the Ricardos moved to Connecticut. Vivian refused to do it for any amount because she could not bare to work alone with him on a weekly basis. She said she use to go through the script and pray that there wasn't a scene of them in bed together.

I think over the years the "feud" has become Hollywood legend, and the stories about it keeps growing. I am sure that they hated each other (two people who like each other don't call one another "That old coot" and a "dried up old [insert cruel word here]") but in one of the books about Vance and Frawley one of the kids from My Three Sons said that he felt by that time the two of them enjoyed the "feud" and getting back at one another more than anything. He tells a story about throwing a bunch of empty film cans onto the set when Vivian was rehearsing The Lucy Show. (Though the feud did prevent Frawley from making a guest appearance on the show until after Viv left.)

Just my take on things and how I understand them.

Did they ever show Fred and Ethels bed room at all during the shows run?
I know we've scene there Living Room,and even there Kichen. But I cant seem to remember if they ever showed there bedroom? And I'm sure if we did they would be just like every other married couples from the 1950's TV Land seprit beds.

Did they ever show Fred and Ethels bed room at all during the shows run?
I know we've scene there Living Room,and even there Kichen. But I cant seem to remember if they ever showed there bedroom? And I'm sure if we did they would be just like every other married couples from the 1950's TV Land seprit beds.


I dont remember any scenes in their bedroom.

they did not show fred and Ethel Bedroom come to think of I don't think we saw there Kitchen.

For the record, as far as their ages:

William Frawley - born 1887 (!) died 1966, age 79
Vivian Vance - born 1909 died 1979, age 70

So Frawley was about 22 years older than Vance.

Lucille Ball - (1911-1989) died at age 77
Desi Arnaz - (1917-1986) died at age 69


It amazes me that we can still enjoy a TV show co-starring someone who was born in 1887.

Elizabeth Patterson, who played Mrs. Trumbill, was born in 1875 and died in 1966 a couple of months after her 90th birthday.

Burt Mustin was born in 1884 and lived to the age of 92.

Did they ever show Fred and Ethels bed room at all during the shows run?

At least once-- in "Vacation From Marriage." Lucy was staying with Ethel, and they were discussing their plans for the night... "Oh, I'm sick of movies"... "Oh, I'm sick of fudge"...."Ethel, nothing personal, but I'm sick of the sight of your face." :lol:

they did not show fred and Ethel Bedroom come to think of I don't think we saw there Kitchen.

They did show there kichen once. It was in the episode "Never Do Business with Friends" The Mertzes just bought The Ricardos old washer and dryer. And Lucy came over to check out how Ethel was getting along with there old washer. And The Mertzes invited Lucy and Ricky to lunch. There was a scene at the table when the washing machine broke down. And thats when they started fighting.

I don't Remember seeing The Kitchen in that episode that you are specking of.

I don't Remember seeing The Kitchen in that episode that you are specking of.
It was when all the clothes and water came shooting out of the washer.

in reference to the mertz's bedroom...in the episode First Stop, where they stop at the diner and stay in the shack there is a seen where lucy and ricky are sleeping in the bed that slumps in the middle and fred and ethel are in the bunk beds. ethel agrees to switch with lucy and ricky saying that their bed back home is like that...then it shows ethel "fixing" fred in the bed...tucking his night shirt in to keep him from rolling over and lucy exclaims "You do that every night?!" and ethels says something like "It took years of practice" so this emplies that they slept in the same bed

then again in the mertz's apartment/hotel room in hollywood it showed their beds in lucy and graumans chinese theater and they have sperate beds.....hum.

hope that helps

in reference to the mertz's bedroom...in the episode First Stop, where they stop at the diner and stay in the shack there is a seen where lucy and ricky are sleeping in the bed that slumps in the middle and fred and ethel are in the bunk beds. ethel agrees to switch with lucy and ricky saying that their bed back home is like that...then it shows ethel "fixing" fred in the bed...tucking his night shirt in to keep him from rolling over and lucy exclaims "You do that every night?!" and ethels says something like "It took years of practice" so this emplies that they slept in the same bed

then again in the mertz's apartment/hotel room in hollywood it showed their beds in lucy and graumans chinese theater and they have sperate beds.....hum.

hope that helps

I never undrstood why they was not alowed to show married couples in bed together in 1950 sitcoms? I meen when we did see them in there beds. They was usely just talking or eating or reading. Why couldnt they just say "Well they both can be shown in bed. But no sex stuff"?
And when about did that change? What was the first sitcom to show married couples in the same bed? I know Mike and Carol was shown in bed together in The Brady Bunch. But was they the first?

I remember seeing an ep of The Lucy Show and Frawley had a walk on part where he was acting as a janitor and Lucy asks Viv "Hey doesn't that guy look Familiar"? and Viv say's "No". :lol:

I never undrstood why they was not alowed to show married couples in bed together in 1950 sitcoms? I meen when we did see them in there beds. They was usely just talking or eating or reading. Why couldnt they just say "Well they both can be shown in bed. But no sex stuff"?
And when about did that change? What was the first sitcom to show married couples in the same bed? I know Mike and Carol was shown in bed together in The Brady Bunch. But was they the first?


The reasons you never saw couples in bed in those 50's show was because it was part of televisions censorship that they had back then. The first couple to be shown in the same bed was Darrin and Samantha Stephens in the first season of Bewitchedin 1964.

The reasons you never saw couples in bed in those 50's show was because it was part of televisions censorship that they had back then. The first couple to be shown in the same bed was Darrin and Samantha Stephens in the first season of Bewitchedin 1964.

What about Fred and Wilma Flintstone?? :)

Fred and Lily Munster shared a bed...but were they "human"?

Did Darren and Samantha share a bed from the beginning of the show? Both Bewitched and the Munsters debuted in September of 1964 (Bewitched debuted one week earlier).

The first couple to share a bed on TV was from a show which actually pre-dated I Love Lucy.


But I won't spoil the answer, I'll just link to it


First human, non-cartoon couple to share a bed on TV (http://www.snopes.com/radiotv/tv/marykay.asp)

It is kinda funny to think that not even Lucy and Desi could share a bed on TV, even though they were actually a real life husband and wife.

I have read that the first TV couple to be shown in bed together was the very first sitcom, Mary Kay and Johnny, which was on 1947-1950. It does have an item in imdb: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0128883/
but it doesn't mention that. It does, however, say they were the first to have a baby, as John and Mary Kay Stearns were a true married couple who had child then, who did "play" himself. I notice Mary Kay's mother was played by Nydia Westman, who I remember from a few 50's and 60's shows and movies.

It is kinda funny to think that not even Lucy and Desi could share a bed on TV, even though they were actually a real life husband and wife.
Their beds were awfully close there for awhile, though. ;)

But you notice that the sheets never came untucked from the middle where the two beds were pushed together.

in reference to the mertz's bedroom...in the episode First Stop, where they stop at the diner and stay in the shack there is a seen where lucy and ricky are sleeping in the bed that slumps in the middle and fred and ethel are in the bunk beds. ethel agrees to switch with lucy and ricky saying that their bed back home is like that...then it shows ethel "fixing" fred in the bed...tucking his night shirt in to keep him from rolling over and lucy exclaims "You do that every night?!" and ethels says something like "It took years of practice" so this emplies that they slept in the same bed

then again in the mertz's apartment/hotel room in hollywood it showed their beds in lucy and graumans chinese theater and they have sperate beds.....hum.

hope that helps
Yet in that episode that tdr mentioned, weren't there separate beds in the Mertz's bedroom? Lucy and Ethel weren't in the same bed.

I believe the first time a toilet was scene on screen was Psycho? Well thats what the tour guide told us on the tour at Univeral. Yeah I been to Universal Studios in Hollywood. Been there more then once. Fun place
Yeah the things they was not alowed to show on the early day of TV's.
Makes you wonder what happen. Look at the filth they can show on TV today. Two and a Half Men-Gush I'm shocked to see and hear what there alowed to say and do on that show!

Their beds were awfully close there for awhile, though. ;)

But you notice that the sheets never came untucked from the middle where the two beds were pushed together.

Yeah...maybe that was a signal to show that the two of them were, in fact, not in the same bed. :)

I believe the first time a toilet was scene on screen was Psycho? Well thats what the tour guide told us on the tour at Univeral. Yeah I been to Universal Studios in Hollywood. Been there more then once. Fun place
Yeah the things they was not alowed to show on the early day of TV's.

Makes you wonder what happen. Look at the filth they can show on TV today. Two and a Half Men-Gush I'm shocked to see and hear what there alowed to say and do on that show!

Declining standards like that happen gradually...a little at a time. Plus, every now and then, a ground-breaking show like "All in the Family" will come along and just blow away a lot of things that couldn't be done or talked about on TV prior to that... don't get me wrong, AITF was not a show with bad morals on it... but the things that were done and said on that show could never have been done in the 50s or early 60s.

As far as sleeping in the same bed, I'm sure there was some outcry about mid-late 60s programs that would show an unmarried couple (even though they played husband and wife on the program) in bed together. But once people got used to that, it wasn't a huge leap to show an unmarried couple in bed (although I have no idea which TV Show was first to do that... I never watched soap operas, did they show that stuff?).

An simpler example of "incrementalism" would be the right to smoke. Personally, I've never smoked, but tobacco is a legal product. And look at all the places where you can't use it. That didn't happen overnight. At first, smoking was banned on things like airline flights. Then, rather than ban it in offices, businesses were forced to designate only certain areas of their buildings where smoking would be allowed. A few years later, even that was banned, and smokers had to go outside the building to smoke. (it was probably around this time that Kramer from "Seinfeld" decided to invite all the people who had to confine their smoking to the sidewalks to his apartment).

Same thing with the junk on TV... little by little, more and more junk gets introduced, and before you know it...total garbage. But it doesn't happen overnight, it takes years.

Declining standards like that happen gradually...a little at a time. Plus, every now and then, a ground-breaking show like "All in the Family" will come along and just blow away a lot of things that couldn't be done or talked about on TV prior to that... don't get me wrong, AITF was not a show with bad morals on it... but the things that were done and said on that show could never have been done in the 50s or early 60s.

As far as sleeping in the same bed, I'm sure there was some outcry about mid-late 60s programs that would show an unmarried couple (even though they played husband and wife on the program) in bed together. But once people got used to that, it wasn't a huge leap to show an unmarried couple in bed (although I have no idea which TV Show was first to do that... I never watched soap operas, did they show that stuff?).

An simpler example of "incrementalism" would be the right to smoke. Personally, I've never smoked, but tobacco is a legal product. And look at all the places where you can't use it. That didn't happen overnight. At first, smoking was banned on things like airline flights. Then, rather than ban it in offices, businesses were forced to designate only certain areas of their buildings where smoking would be allowed. A few years later, even that was banned, and smokers had to go outside the building to smoke. (it was probably around this time that Kramer from "Seinfeld" decided to invite all the people who had to confine their smoking to the sidewalks to his apartment).

Same thing with the junk on TV... little by little, more and more junk gets introduced, and before you know it...total garbage. But it doesn't happen overnight, it takes years.

Also remember alot of the filth shown today was because of Married...With Children. If I seem to remember The Bundys ratings was not that hot. Then some lady complained about what they was showing on the show. She even made the news. Then when American viewers scene her on the news they wanted to know what all the fuss was about. Then people started tuning in.And the next thing you know Married...With Children became a huge hit. All because of that lady. She was trying to get the show removed from the airways but it ended up blowing up in her face.

The foursome did share a bench seat in the train to Italy. How the four crammed into that seat was a miracle. YOu did see Fred lying across the other 3 in that episode. I wonder how that scene was set up?

Didn't Ozzzie and Harriet have one big bed. I read somewhere Ozzie felt it should be that way for he and Harriet did share a bed in real life. My parents didn't share in later life for my dad snored. My brother now is snoring in his chair.

Ozzie and Harriet did share a bed in the later seasons, but in the early episodes, they too, had twin beds.

Seems like I read somewhere that Vivian hated William and she would want to be finished rehearsing as quickly as possible and she would always hope that there wouldn't be a scene where they had to be in bed together. While I think that the characters did share a bed, I don't think that they showed much of that because Vivian didn't want them to. And okay, maybe it was immoral back then, but give me a break, I'm fifteen what I think is immoral and what they thought was immoral are two totally different things.