Today I remember this very old unexplained death case. I can't remember many of the details so I'm hoping one of you super sleuths will! :)

It was about a girl who died from a shotgun blast standing near her car. The death was ruled a suicide but the investigation showed she would have had great difficulty pulling the trigger with the gun aimed at her. I remember it being really weird and hard to believe it was ruled a suicide. I know it was among the very first UM shows.

So... does anyone remember? Not much to go on I know, so hopefully one of you can make a connection.

Thanks!

Today I remember this very old unexplained death case. I can't remember many of the details so I'm hoping one of you super sleuths will! :)

It was about a girl who died from a shotgun blast standing near her car. The death was ruled a suicide but the investigation showed she would have had great difficulty pulling the trigger with the gun aimed at her. I remember it being really weird and hard to believe it was ruled a suicide. I know it was among the very first UM shows.

So... does anyone remember? Not much to go on I know, so hopefully one of you can make a connection.

Thanks!

Sounds like the Rae Ann Mossor one. She died by her car which was parked near her former boyfriend's house where she is reported to have said shortly before her death "what do I have to do to prove my love for you...kill myself". Her parents didn't buy it was a suicide as they claimed her arm wasn't long enough to pull the trigger.

I've seen this case many times and I have a hard time buying she was murdered (like the parents think). It just seems more plausible that given the circumstances that she either found a way to rig the shotgun to go off killing herself or that somehow the gun accidentally discharged killing her.

Sounds like the Rae Ann Mossor one. She died by her car which was parked near her former boyfriend's house where she is reported to have said shortly before her death "what do I have to do to prove my love for you...kill myself". Her parents didn't buy it was a suicide as they claimed her arm wasn't long enough to pull the trigger.

I've seen this case many times and I have a hard time buying she was murdered (like the parents think). It just seems more plausible that given the circumstances that she either found a way to rig the shotgun to go off killing herself or that somehow the gun accidentally discharged killing her.

BINGO! We have a winner!

That's it. Do you know if they ever showed that one on Lifetime? I know it's on your volumes but somehow I missed that one when I saw volume 3 the first time. Glad to have it, though. (My wife suddenly got hooked on UM so we have been watching them in HER order, not mine... That's going to change post haste! :D)

I also agree that it was most likely not a suicide. If I remember right, it would have been physically impossible to intentionally pull the trigger.

I also agree that it was most likely not a suicide. If I remember right, it would have been physically impossible to intentionally pull the trigger.

Well I actually tend to believe it was a suicide or accidental death rather than a murder. She probably could have rigged it to go off somehow (I have heard of someone who pulled the trigger of a shotgun with his toe in a suicide attempt) or it accidentally discharged. What UM leaves out is does the shotgun belong to Rae Ann? I would assume it does or they would have said so. If she was upset that her former boyfriend no longer wanted to date her and brings a shotgun to his house than I think the suicide theory holds even more weight.

Yes this segment did air on Lifetime pretty regularly.

LOL! All I can remember from this case is her saying, "What do I have to do to prove my love to you?"

One of those timeless UM quotes, I guess.... I still cry foul play on this one. Sorry, CD... this is one of the few times we disagree. :shocked:

Dang... I watched Lifetime so much I might be accussed of being a woman, but I never remember seeing that case. :lol:

Seriously, that one always bugged me so I wanted to see it on Lifetime but never did.

I have to go with CRicci on this one. I might be able to believe the accident scenario, but that is even more far fetched than the murder one. I need to re-watch this so I can refresh my memory, but it always bugged me that they made it seem like she did it when the evidence says otherwise.

[Note: Todd reserves the right to change his mind after re-viewing the segment. ;) ]

Sorry, CD... this is one of the few times we disagree. :shocked:

How dare you disagree with me Cricci!!! Lol, just kidding. :lol: You know I will say that the first dozen times I watched this segment I probably leaned towards her not ending her own life. But then I thought "who in the world could have killed her and why?" What motive is there? The police didn't seem to doubt the boyfriend's comments and there may have even been witnesses around who heard her make that statement. Rae Ann did have a temper and did seem to be distraught at her boyfriend no longer wanting to see her and I'm assuming the shotgun she was killed with belonged to her or her family or UM would have mentioned it. Than I realized that sometimes UM goes out of their way to incinuate that something more sinister and bizarre happened when in reality most times its the most plausible answer that is the correct one. Coupled with those two things is what made me think that she wasn't murdered.

I am curious Todd to see if your opinion changes after viewing the segment again.

I fixed a run in my grandma's sweater this morning. And I'm replying to CD's post, which I forgot I never had way back when.

What do these two things have in common, you ask?

In both cases, I'm pulling it out an old thread. :lol:


[I amuse myself sometimes...]


OK, CD. Just watched this one again. You know what? SOMETHING IS REALLY WRONG WITH THIS CASE! Someone else pulled that trigger, no two ways about it.

#1. She couldn't reach it and give herself a chest wound at the same time. It was a physical impossibility.

#2. The gun was lying on the trunk. Not impossible, but unlikely based on the scene.

#3. If she used a "prop" to fire the gun, why was IT not found at the scene? She was wearing shoes (so toes are out, CD :p ). It may have been something else but it would have had to have been strong (like a big stick) so they should have found that.

#4. The odds of the gun going off accidentally are extremely remote. It shouldn't go off if banged or dropped to the ground (as shown in the test during the story). Guns don't just go off. That's why most people knowledgable about weapons never say "accidental shooting." The correct term is "negligant discharge." The difference is that you have to pull the trigger to make the gun go BOOM. That is no accident -- it couldn't happen because a person wasn't being careful and was being a d-bag, but it is not an '"accident". Careless, yes, but a trigger needs to be pulled to make the gun go off.

#5. The powder burns on her LEFT hand. Most likely from grabbing the muzzle or being close to it. Cops can't explain that one, but the other MEs could.

#6. Doesn't anyone think it is odd that the ex-boyfriend didn't go out to investigate? I'm sure the police looked at him, but it seems odd she gets into a fight with him then winds up dead outside his house (under strange circumstances) and there was NOTHING in the UM story about him. They mentioned him in the beginning but nothing later. I found that really odd.

Based on the above, I've come to the following two conclusions:

Conclusion 1: The cops showed up, thought they had a suicide, and said "Open and shut case." After further review, things don't add up and since they don't want to look like they have egg on their faces, they have been very reluctant to do more work and change the cause of death (even though it was well after the fact.

Conclusion 2: I feel this is another case of selective story telling and/or editing by UM. The viewer gets the sense there is a lot wrong with this case and the investigation, so where is the other side of the story. And again, why so little about the boyfriend? Is he not the obvious suspect? Like you said, CD: Whose gun was it??? Where there finger prints? There is a LOT to this story we just don't know about.

And finally, my theory: Rae Ann gets into an argument with someone (maybe the boyfriend?). She grabs the gun and threatens to shoot them or herself. They take the gun away from her. (Now here is where it gets weird for me.) Being angry, that person threatens to shoot her OR that person instinctively (but not purposefully) puts his/her finger on the trigger. Rae Ann says, "Give me the gun!" and pulls it with her left hand. That action causes the trigger to be pulled (unintentionally) and it goes off. The "shooter" panics (as it was not an intentional shooting), thinks to him/herself "How am I ever going to explain this?!?", wipes the gun clean, sets it on the trunk, and runs away.

I had forgotten so much about this case from when I first saw it on the original UM broadcast. But I remember it bugged me then and it still bugs me now.

Thoughts, anyone???

"I am in receipt of your reply"

#5. The powder burns on her LEFT hand. Most likely from grabbing the muzzle or being close to it. Cops can't explain that one, but the other MEs could.
She could very easily have powder burns on her left hand from holding the barrel of the gun herself as she was pulling the trigger with the other hand. Frankly, I don't see how she'd be able to shoot herself without holding the gun with one hand while pulling the trigger with the other.

PRICELESS! Well done, sir...

:brent

"I am in receipt of your reply"

Wish I could see this eppy.

Does it have any similarities to the Abigail Niebauer case (not on UM that I'm aware of) who was killed by her husband James? It's been on Cold Case Files a lot.

In the Neibauer case, the husband said that he was cleaning the shotgun and he'd even spread out all the materials to set the scene. When his wife came home, he wanted to show her how nice his freshly cleaned gun looked and somehow it went off and shot her in the chest.

Investigators recreated the murder scenario to prove her husband's guilt when they realized that the powder burns on Abigail's sweater cuffs could only have been made if she had been standing in the classic defensive position of forearms raised up to cover the chest and hands near the face. She was not holding and admiring the gun, as her husband said. Also, her entire family was adamant that she hated guns and wouldn't touch one.

BTW, the motive in that case was the wife's parent's inheritance, I think. James knew that Abigail intended to keep that inheritance money separate from their joint assets. The only way he could get it was if she was dead.

I'd like to see the burn marks/powder marks in the Mossor case. Was she really holding the barrel of the shotgun, aiming at herself and received the burn marks that way, or was she trying to defend herself from the blast?

If the burn marks were on her left hand and she had none on her right, maybe she used her left hand to steady the front of the barrel, and used her right hand to manipulate a stick or some other device to pull the trigger, (assuming suicide).

Also, if it was an accident in the manner described by TM in his final theory and another person was holding the gun, while they were arguing and she was pulling on the gun, I can see that exact thing happening.

I don't know anyone who handles a gun properly (except my family, who's been trained). Watch people on tv shows or in the movies, their fingers are always on the trigger whether they are facing a bad guy or walking around sniffing daisies. I think if people aren't trained in the proper handling of their weapons, their instinct is to have their finger on the trigger, like they've seen on tv their whole lives.

In real life, I've seen it several times when people are first being trained to use a weapon. They grab the gun and hold on to the trigger. And in the case of my stupid brother in law, aim and point it at 9 people in the living room, because that's just how gangsta he thinks he is. ugh. People do really stupid things with loaded guns.

I fixed a run in my grandma's sweater this morning. And I'm replying to CD's post, which I forgot I never had way back when.

What do these two things have in common, you ask?

In both cases, I'm pulling it out an old thread. :lol:


[I amuse myself sometimes...]



Good one Todd....:lol:

Nah I still don't buy murder. You didn't mention what possible motive anyone would have. Granted we only have what UM told us to go on and assumptions and sometimes they leave things out that don't fit their possible scenario of murder. I'm guessing the gun belonged to Rae Ann or her relatives or they would have certainly brought that up. I'm also assuming that the boyfriend's story was corroborated, perhaps by people in his house or in the neighborhood or you would have thought UM would have mentioned that especially if they are trying to convince us of murder. So what are the facts as we know them? Rae Ann was upset at her boyfriend breaking up with her, she specificially says 'what do I have to do to prove my love for you, kill myself' and then coincidentally minutes later she's dead. What possible motive would the boyfriend have to kill her when he wanted no more to do with her? I don't know about the shotgun. People can be pretty creative when they want something bad enough and I think Rae Ann could have figured a way to discharge the gun. She could have been standing up against the back of the car and after the gun discharged it could have fallen on the trunk. Or someone could have heard the gunshot and ran out and saw her and placed the gun there before calling the police. It appeared by the UM segment that it was a fairly populated area where she died, why didn't anyone hear anything. If it was an altercation as you stated, people would have heard arguing or something. If Rae Ann had a shotgun pointed at her don't you think she would have yelled or screamed just as human nature would have you do? I can envision after having an argument with her boyfriend and being really enraged she pulled a shotgun she had in her car (again why would she carry a shotgun around with her, maybe she had contemplated suicide before) and deciding to end it all and get back at her ex by doing it near his home shot herself. I'm not saying there's no way in the world she was murdered but the evidence certainly does not convince me (as it did not convince the police) she was murdered and I can think of no motive and there was no evidence around of a random act of violence. On the other hand I can think of some reasons for Rae Ann wanting to end her own life. Her boyfriend had ended it and like her mother said Rae Ann had a temper. She could have decided to do something very rash in order to show him. Hey its happened before.

I hope that one day Rae Ann's relatives come across this board and can give us more answers. Since the death was ruled a suicide there is probably nothing online about it.

I have not seen this one in awhile, but I always thought this was a suicide. The fact is that we don't know exactly where or how she was standing when the shot was fired, so it makes theorizing about hand/gun/body positioning difficult. As others have pointed out, the boyfriend wasn't focused on so I'm guessing he must have been cleared as a suspect. That being said, who else would go out of their way to do her in? The time frame and close proximity of neighbors and potential witnesses works against the murder theory, imho. Also, she said she was going to kill herself! I mean, I realize there are some odd circumstances here, but that's life. There are a lot of solved cases that have loose ends. But let's step back and look at the big picture here. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....

Okay I just rewatched this one. One fact I had forgotten is that Rae Ann was found on the ground beside her ex's car while her car was across the street. That could point to the fact that she was trying to possibly get back at him. By looking at where the gun was found I could also see that this was possibly an accidental shooting. I don't believe the gun was ever tested (or UM didn't mention it anyway) but I think there's a chance Rae Ann was handling the shotgun and it accidentally discharged. Remember she had powder burns on her wrist.

UGH! I need to see this episode. Hopefully it will be in the rotation next week.

So Rae Ann was found dead by her ex's car, while her car was across the street.

Is it possible that with her hot temper, she intended to damage his car with the gun, maybe shoot out the windows or something, but in a rage, she was mishandling the gun wildly and accidentally killed herself?

I'm also wondering about this statement that Rae Ann made shortly before she died: "What do I have to do to prove my love for you, kill myself".

Who heard her say that? Can it be proved that Rae Ann and her ex weren't fighting over the break up, with a gun introduced into the argument, and even without a motive, the boyfriend shoots her because they're in the middle of a violent argument. (Otherwise it seems a motiveless murder, since they were broken up and he wanted to be rid of her. But could the argument have caused him to have a "heat of passion" break with self control where he just shot her in anger?)

If that happened, then he immediately needed to divert the suspicion off of himself. So, he tells police that she was so mad about the break up that she said, "What do I have to do to prove my love for you? Kill myself?" Then she leaves and kills herself. Sounds like a believable story, but not if the bf (or people willing to cover for him) was the only witness to that suicide threat.

If he was the only witness to this comment, it almost turns into a "he said/she said" kind of thing, where only good detective work and scientific analysis will prove what really happened.

Yes she was found dead next to the back drivers side of the ex's car. The gun was on the trunk. Her car was across the road with the driver's side door open and the radio blaring, key in the ignition.

Robert Stack did say that either 2 or 3 witnesses heard her say "what do I have to do to prove my love for you, kill myself?"

Yes I think your theory about her wanting to vandalize his car and the gun accidentally discharging is a plausible one.

I don't believe the gun was ever tested (or UM didn't mention it anyway) but I think there's a chance Rae Ann was handling the shotgun and it accidentally discharged. Remember she had powder burns on her wrist.

The ballistics expert in the segment tested it for the possibility of accidental discharge. He tried to get it to go off by banging it on the ground and couldn’t get it to go off. He also said the gun seemed to operate normally so there should be no reason for it to go off accidentally and he couldn’t get it to fire that when even when banging the butt of the gun on the ground.

Two of the Medical Examiners stated that the gun was most likely not right against her body and that the powder burns were more likely caused by her holding the end of the gun when it went off.

I mean, I realize there are some odd circumstances here, but that's life. There are a lot of solved cases that have loose ends. But let's step back and look at the big picture here. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....

I'm not saying there's no way in the world she was murdered but the evidence certainly does not convince me (as it did not convince the police) she was murdered and I can think of no motive and there was no evidence around of a random act of violence. On the other hand I can think of some reasons for Rae Ann wanting to end her own life. Her boyfriend had ended it and like her mother said Rae Ann had a temper. She could have decided to do something very rash in order to show him. Hey its happened before.

Here is the problem... When investigating a crime, you have to look at the facts and physical evidence and keep the emotion out of it (which is why so many parents often have trouble accepting what happens to their kids). Now you might say “That should prove Rae Ann’s parents aren't being rational” but I think it is the opposite.

Did she have a temper? Yes. Did she mention the possibility of suicide? Yes. Could she have fired the gun at her own chest? No (at least not without "something" else). That is why this doesn’t work for me.

The physical evidence, as stated by the second and third M.E.’s, does not support a suicide.

Now that leaves us with one of three possibilities;

1.) She did kill herself by using some as-yet-undetermined method to make the trigger go off. Possible but unlikely, and the police never publically stated that they could show how this happened.

2.) She was murdered. I vote this as the least likely, because there are few if any suspects and there is no motive (like you mentioned, CD).

3.) Accidental shooting by herself or someone else. To me, based on the evidence, this seems most likely but again we have to ask how she did it (since it was tested for accidental discharge and ruled unlikely) or if it was someone else, who?


I say again, I think UM left out some key questions and/or facts on this one. Is there more evidence that she did it herself that UM withheld (which would explain why the cops think so strongly it was suicide)? What was the explanation by the police or the original M.E. as to why the length of the gun seems to be a problem for suicide?

To one extent, I agree with you CD and justin. My gut tells me it probably was a suicide that was done in haste after a fight with her ex-boyfriend. But the physical evidence really shows something else happened that night, so if I take emotion or feeling out of this, suddenly it isn’t so clear.

If you think it was suicide, the physical evidence doesn’t support that.

If you think it was murder/accidental shooting, the rest of facts don’t support that.

I hope that one day Rae Ann's relatives come across this board and can give us more answers. Since the death was ruled a suicide there is probably nothing online about it.

Amen to that! ;)

What was the angle at which the shot hit her body?

I remember a case where a man said that his wife was seated while holding the shot gun between her legs and she pulled the trigger with her toe, killing herself. (could have been the reeves guy in tx who kept killing wives, can't remember)

The prosecution took a woman of the same height and weight and her demonstrate for the court how it was impossible to hold the gun at her chest and pull the trigger with her toe.

The problem was, the prosecution didn't test their theory before showing the demonstration to the entire court. The woman was able to pull the trigger with her toe and it was obvious that she could have killed herself that way. The prosecution had just ruined their case!

But when the court took a recess, the prosecution remembered the tragectory of the shot (or the distance the gun was from her body, can't remember which) and that it was completely impossible for her to hold the gun and fire it herself.

They then had her demonstrate for the court how the "suicide" would have to happen for the shot to enter her body in the manner it did. Finally, they proved that it was there was no possible way for her to have shot herself.

Knowing what position Rae Ann was in and the angle of how the shot entered her body may be helpful in figuring out if it was self inflicted or not.

It wasn't a suicide.

It was her bf that done it. He was into drugs and she was trying to leave him. When she did he shot her. I believe she was going to tell the police about him. He was a violent person. A lot of the situation didn't get covered in the episode. I was only a kid when it happened so i don't fully remember what my aunt told us my cousin said about him. It took a long time for my family to recover from this. Specially since we lost well my uncle to a situation of murder that was never solved and no convictions. You can read about that situation in Rotten to the core 2. His name was Gary Lee Mossor. Rae Ann was a good woman that didn't deserve what happened to her.

You are making statements as if you have proof.
Do you have any proof that what you claim is actually the case?