I have made a couple of "vs." posts lately because I feel certain cases are quite similar. However, I had never seen the Norman Ladner case until tonight and I must say that the first thing that popped into my mind was the Ives & Henry case. These two cases are not just similar, but eeringly similar. I am probably not the first to make this observation, and would like to hear fellow poster's opinions on this notion.

Take away the fact that Ives and Henry happened to be laid on train tracks after their death, and these two cases appear nearly identical. All 3 boys were right around 17 years old. Ives and Henry had a .22 rifle and were walking rural land in Arkansas. Ladner also had a .22 rifle as was walking rural land in Mississippi. Both cases were ruled accidents or suicides by authorities. In both cases the parents have persisted in their own investigations and have turned up links to organized drug smuggling, and in both cases the police appear to be somewhat involved in a cover-up (there is more evidence of this in the Ives and Henry case though). All three deaths appear to be a case of the kids being in the wrong place at the wrong time. The motive for murder in both cases appears to be the silence of a witness to high level drug smuggling.

I wonder if Ives' and Henry's parents have ever been in contact with Ladner's parents?

At any rate, a very interesting case and I am glad I got to see it before LRW takes the show off the air soon.

Regards.

I tink the "evidence" for a dug smuggling operation in the Ladner case is just that thing that his father found, which a retired officer who did not appear on camera said was similar to the sort of device that smugglers used to help guide planes to the ground. Pretty weak if you ask me - there was nothing found at the scene to suggest another party or parties were present.

Well, there is really not much evidence putting anyone else at the Ives and Henry scene either. Most of the evidence is based upon rumors about drug smuggling and the Mena drug ring. However, in the Ives and Henry case there were a few witnesses who claim they "heard" people talk about being at the scene. There are no such witnesses in the Ladner case based on the UM segment (but there were not witnesses in the Ives and Henry case based on UM either. All of the Mena stuff came out after the UM segment aired.)

The reason I am suspicious of the Ladner case is because the police did not even attempt to find the bullet that killed him. They based their entire conclusion on "how his body fell." This is pretty dubious to me. At the very least the bullet should have been found and matched to his rifle.

I wonder what caliber of rifle Ladner was carrying? The father said the bullet he and his wife found was "too long for his gun." I assume Ladner probably was carrying a .22 caliber rifle, and thus, the boy's rifle may have only been chambered for a .22 "short" or .22 "long" ammunition, and was not chambered for a .22 "long rifle." This is just speculation on my part, however.

I admit the family could be fabricating the story, but it seems quite creative for them to engender some story about a radio device, about finding a bullet beneath Norman's body that was bloody and had bone fragments on it, and about having a man tell the mother face to face to call off her investigation because she would never find out who killed her son. Of course, it would have given more credibility to their story if they would have shown the radio device or the bullet on camera or had the former DEA agent friend appear on the segment.

I am not saying this case is as suspicious as the Ives/Henry case, but I feel the police investigation was incomplete when they reached their conclusion.

Later.

I believe the bullet they found they turned it over to LE & never got it back.

I think it's bit of a stretch that they would fabricate a story.

Well, there is really not much evidence putting anyone else at the Ives and Henry scene either. Most of the evidence is based upon rumors about drug smuggling and the Mena drug ring. However, in the Ives and Henry case there were a few witnesses who claim they "heard" people talk about being at the scene. There are no such witnesses in the Ladner case based on the UM segment (but there were not witnesses in the Ives and Henry case based on UM either. All of the Mena stuff came out after the UM segment aired.)

The reason I am suspicious of the Ladner case is because the police did not even attempt to find the bullet that killed him. They based their entire conclusion on "how his body fell." This is pretty dubious to me. At the very least the bullet should have been found and matched to his rifle.

I wonder what caliber of rifle Ladner was carrying? The father said the bullet he and his wife found was "too long for his gun." I assume Ladner probably was carrying a .22 caliber rifle, and thus, the boy's rifle may have only been chambered for a .22 "short" or .22 "long" ammunition, and was not chambered for a .22 "long rifle." This is just speculation on my part, however.

I admit the family could be fabricating the story, but it seems quite creative for them to engender some story about a radio device, about finding a bullet beneath Norman's body that was bloody and had bone fragments on it, and about having a man tell the mother face to face to call off her investigation because she would never find out who killed her son. Of course, it would have given more credibility to their story if they would have shown the radio device or the bullet on camera or had the former DEA agent friend appear on the segment.

I am not saying this case is as suspicious as the Ives/Henry case, but I feel the police investigation was incomplete when they reached their conclusion.

Later.

I just saw this Ladner case today on the Mystery Channel here in Canada. I too thought about the "Boys on the Tracks" case after I watched this one and rumoured connections to drug smuggling. I do find it puzzling how the police did a "half-assed" job of investigating this Ladner case. I guess that there are no updates on this case?

Both of these cases are probably the two that get at me the most. Something about these cases makes me feel really helpless. I know what it is like to be in certain situations and for these kids to be in a situation and end up being murdered awful to imagine. Looking at their pictures it could be anyone(I know that's the case with any mystery) but its because they were so close to my age and were doing things any teenager would be doing. It sucks that it is still unsolved, another one of those cases that should not have even gone unsolved. Especially after all the talk that the authorities were corrupt. The south seems like a different country sometimes(no offense).

they can be related what about the guy with camo on? what is his part in this?

arkansas and mississippi...two completely different area's

arkansas and mississippi...two completely different area's

How do you mean?

just because someone was murdered in one state in the woods over drugs, doesn't mean that the person murdered in the 2nd state in the woods was related to the same thing

they are very silmilar

they are very silmilar

were they found hogtied with there boots on? i thought they were

were they found hogtied with there boots on? i thought they were

roflol!!!!

I'm surprised that no one has brought up the two boys who were killed in Oklahoma. It's been said that they were killed in the same fashion as Don, and Kevin. Both were lying motionless on a train track. I've been trying to find more details on the case, but to no avail.

Last September, I spent the entirety of my evenings for a week searching Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) accident records for both the Ives/Henry incident as well as the mysterious 1984 Oklahoma accident on the advice of my husband, who is a railroad employee.

The former was much easier to search for as I had an exact date, location, and knew the railroad involved--but I found nothing that even remotely described the Ives/Henry incident. There were a small number of reportable incidents in August 1987 involving the Union Pacific Railroad in Saline County (as well as the surrounding counties, which I also searched), including at least one report of an individual trespassing on railroad property, but I did not find anything about two people being run over by a UP train on 23 August 1987 in Bryant, Arkansas.

I remember feeling very uncomfortable the entire week because an accident of Ives/Henry magnitude would DEFINITELY be on file with the FRA, and not being able to find it unsettled me. It would have as well been on Union Pacific records, but I found nothing there when I searched the company's archive.

I also did not find anything detailing the 1984 Oklahoma incident. I can't recall if the record simply was not there or if I wasn't able to use the search engine because I didn't have an exact date or railroad for the incident, but I do remember that I saw no file detailing an accident fitting that description.


I don't understand why the Ives/Henry incident would not be on file with the FRA, if that's truly the case. One person walking down railroad tracks is considered a reportable incident to the FRA (and there are many of those in the archive), as are grade crossing accidents, derailments, spillages of any sort, personnel injuries, etc...and certainly people being run over by trains.

I don't understand why the Ives/Henry incident would not be on file with the FRA, if that's truly the case. One person walking down railroad tracks is considered a reportable incident to the FRA (and there are many of those in the archive), as are grade crossing accidents, derailments, spillages of any sort, personnel injuries, etc...and certainly people being run over by trains.

Does the FRA have investigative powers or jursidiction?

Are homicides, suicides or felonies in those files as well as accidents? Is it might be possible that because the case involves possible homicide or suicide that it would not be part of the file?

Does the FRA have investigative powers or jursidiction?

Are homicides, suicides or felonies in those files as well as accidents? Is it might be possible that because the case involves possible homicide or suicide that it would not be part of the file?
The FRA is a regulatory agency, so its primary role is to develop national safety standards, and, in the event of an incident, investigate it--but only in terms of its imposed safety regulations, not state or federal law (which the FRA has no power to enforce, as it is not a LE entity).
All incidents involving fatalities on railroad property are reported to and investigated by the FRA, no matter the circumstances. The FRA will not distinguish an accident from suicide or homicide in its reports; it will simply list the incident as "Fatality" and describe briefly what happened and what action was taken. Any criminal investigation is then, of course, handled by local, state, or federal LE, depending on where the incident transpired.

I took another look around last night and found a report that closely resembles the Ives/Henry incident, but if it is, it was incorrectly reported. It gives the victims' ages as 21 and indicates the incident occured in Pulaski County, AR, although Ives and Henry were 17 and 16, respectively, and impacted by the train in Saline County, just south of Pulaski County.

This last bit, however, is what makes me think this might be the boys' file. I noticed on a map the site of impact is almost exactly one mile from the Saline/Pulaski County line. The northbound train took nearly half a mile to stop after Steve Shroyer put the locomotive in emergency stop, so whomever drafted the report very well may have made an understandable error, believing the train at least came to a halt in Pulaski Co, if not impacted the boys there as well. That doesn't explain the age error, although the report does describe the "trespassers" as being on the tracks and is dated August (no day given) 1987.

The FRA reports only this fatality case as well as an additional one in a farther county for the Union Pacific Railroad in the state of Arkansas for August 1987. Its file name is UP198708K2887, if you're interested.


As well, I searched fatalities for all railroads in the state of Oklahoma throughout January-December 1984. These are the closest matches to Ives/Henry similarity as far as I could determine from the reports (all were listed as 'Sitting or lying on tracks', but are not detailed enough to distinguish):

UP1984035823
KCS198406521174
BNSF198407140784301

Files are named by railroad involved, year incident occured, month it occured, and then a report number. So here, we have Union Pacific, March 1984; Kansas City Southern, June 1984; and Burlington Northern Santa Fe, July 1984.

I'd be interested to see system maps of these railroads, specifically in the general AR/OK/TX area. The UP tracks in Bryant run along I-35, which was allegedly a hot drug trafficking route in the vicinity during the 1980s. I wonder if any of these railroads have track near or in Hodgen, OK (the site of the "similar case") that run along I-35. I've been trying to dig up information on the case (a newspaper headline was shown in the segment), but it's taking some work. I'm pretty confident I can eventually find it, though.

Sorry for the long post. This is a case I'm extremely passionate about.

The FRA is a regulatory agency, so its primary role is to develop national safety standards, and, in the event of an incident, investigate it--but only in terms of its imposed safety regulations, not state or federal law (which the FRA has no power to enforce, as it is not a LE entity).
All incidents involving fatalities on railroad property are reported to and investigated by the FRA, no matter the circumstances. The FRA will not distinguish an accident from suicide or homicide in its reports; it will simply list the incident as "Fatality" and describe briefly what happened and what action was taken. Any criminal investigation is then, of course, handled by local, state, or federal LE, depending on where the incident transpired.

I took another look around last night and found a report that closely resembles the Ives/Henry incident, but if it is, it was incorrectly reported. It gives the victims' ages as 21 and indicates the incident occured in Pulaski County, AR, although Ives and Henry were 17 and 16, respectively, and impacted by the train in Saline County, just south of Pulaski County.

This last bit, however, is what makes me think this might be the boys' file. I noticed on a map the site of impact is almost exactly one mile from the Saline/Pulaski County line. The northbound train took nearly half a mile to stop after Steve Shroyer put the locomotive in emergency stop, so whomever drafted the report very well may have made an understandable error, believing the train at least came to a halt in Pulaski Co, if not impacted the boys there as well. That doesn't explain the age error, although the report does describe the "trespassers" as being on the tracks and is dated August (no day given) 1987.

The FRA reports only this fatality case as well as an additional one in a farther county for the Union Pacific Railroad in the state of Arkansas for August 1987. Its file name is UP198708K2887, if you're interested.


As well, I searched fatalities for all railroads in the state of Oklahoma throughout January-December 1984. These are the closest matches to Ives/Henry similarity as far as I could determine from the reports (all were listed as 'Sitting or lying on tracks', but are not detailed enough to distinguish):

UP1984035823
KCS198406521174
BNSF198407140784301

Files are named by railroad involved, year incident occured, month it occured, and then a report number. So here, we have Union Pacific, March 1984; Kansas City Southern, June 1984; and Burlington Northern Santa Fe, July 1984.

I'd be interested to see system maps of these railroads, specifically in the general AR/OK/TX area. The UP tracks in Bryant run along I-35, which was allegedly a hot drug trafficking route in the vicinity during the 1980s. I wonder if any of these railroads have track near or in Hodgen, OK (the site of the "similar case") that run along I-35. I've been trying to dig up information on the case (a newspaper headline was shown in the segment), but it's taking some work. I'm pretty confident I can eventually find it, though.

Sorry for the long post. This is a case I'm extremely passionate about.

Great work.

The Ives/Henry case is in my top 5 of best UM cases ever, and one of the questions I had immediately after I saw the segment was about who the Hogden, OK victims were and what the circumstances were surrounding their deaths. Typically, UM segments will often delve into similar incidents like this, or at least give more information than a mere "a similar case happened in another state" blurb. And since this happened in the 1980's before the Internet was popular and before we had cable news channels covering every murder case for hours at night, this means someone from OK must have contacted the AR authorities to tell them of the prior incident. My point is, the incidents must have occurred geographically close enough for "word of mouth" to have taken place.

After looking at Google maps, this appears to indeed be the case. Hogden, OK is only 10 miles from the Arkansas border, and is right along the Quachita National Forest. If there was ever a good route for drug smuggling it would be through a remote national forest.

Now, as to your question about what railroads run through Hogden: well Hogden sits 3.5 miles south of a town called Heavener. According to Wikipedia, Heavener's main industry is, yep you guessed it, a railroad.

Quote from Wikipedia:

The Kansas City Southern Railway operates a large repair depot in Heavener that has been the town's largest employer for over seventy years.

Now, I have no idea how railroads operate or if different railroads operate in the same area, but it seems likely that the KCS report you mentioned from June 1984 is the one we are looking for. Unfortunately, Google is turning up nothing about any deaths in 1984 in Hodgen, OK. It seems it will take digging up obituary columns or contacting authorities in that area to get the information.

Now for an interesting tidbit about Bryant, AR which you may or may not know (I cant remember if the segment mentioned it or not), but Google maps reveals that there is a regional airport in Bryant, Arkansas which sits about 500 yards from the railroad tracks. So, we have railroad tracks that run from Oklahoma through a rural national forest into a small town in Arkansas which also has an airport.

THERE IS A MATCH SOMEHWERE IN THIS CASE ITS LIKE THE iVE AND hENRY CASE

I'm surprised that no one has brought up the two boys who were killed in Oklahoma. It's been said that they were killed in the same fashion as Don, and Kevin. Both were lying motionless on a train track. I've been trying to find more details on the case, but to no avail.

Where did you hear about this case? I'd like to learn more.

Where did you hear about this case? I'd like to learn more.

It's mentioned in the Ives/Henry UM segment, but no details are given.

I remember reading some speculation that the three deaths were carried out by the Dixie Mafia so the boys wouldn't expose their illegal drug operations, but again, no evidence has ever proven that.

Ive's/ Henry and Ladner cases have the word Sabotage.. for example the bullet they found where Ladner died was 2 inches in the ground and the bullet they found on the survice of the ground was different...

and the stab wounds in the one shirt of Henry and Ive's and ......


theres a connection