My theory is similar to that of Maury Terry's on the episode, where he was a part of a gang of killers and maybe pulled off 2-3 of the 7.

The composites - 2 of them look just like John Carr, the very first composite (guy with just curly hair and striped shirt) looked like Michael Carr.

The guy withe the spikey hair who killed Moskowitz couldn't have been Berkowitz said witnesses, he ran to fast and just looked nothing like him.

This was a fascintaiong episode, even some of the background music and sound effects were chilling.

I think the Carrs and a small number of people.....perhaps anywhere from 2-4 others, including Berkowitz were in on the actual killings....though if Berkowitz and the Carrs were involved in a Satanic Cult......there could be more who knew about the whole deal.......

I must be in the minority. I think Berkowitz acted alone.

While I'm not sure if we can take Berkowitz's affimative confirmation of everything Maury Terry said as the final word on the subject...I do however feel there is enough evidence to draw a logical conclusion that Berkowitz could have not been the lone killer at least in the Stacy Moskowitz killing.

I feel it would be highly improbable for the murder of Moskowitz to have been committed by Berkowitz being that his movements around the city that night suggest that if anything he was playing the role of accomplice that night. It is more probable that one of the Carrs or another murdered Moskowitz and possibly several other of the S.O.S. victims being that some of the composites bore an uncanny resemblance to John Carr (and not David Berkowitz)

As a final note in my opinion this is the best UM segment ever. I have first hand knowledge of people not being able to sleep FOR DAYS (thats right days!) after seeing this segment and a number of these same individuals were not at all phased by horror flims or stuff of that nature. UM truly pulled off something very dark and creepy with this one.

One reason I kind of belive berkowtiz is that unlike other killers who say I am innocent let me go the man admits to killing people and says he belongs in prison so there might have been other people invloved.

Berkowitz could've been the lone gunman on some of the hits.........but I'm more likely to believe he was a patsy of sorts.

If you watch the segment again, you'll see a lil map of the area and hear Robert Stack describe how Berkowitz was spotted by a neighbor (Pearl something or other).......and then, a little more than a minute later, shots ring out. Then Tommy Zaino or someone remarks on how it'd be highly improbable for a pudgeball like Berkowitz to cover that great of a distance in that short amount of time.

Later on, when describing the interview, Stack's talking about the interviews Berkowitz gave and there's a question "Asked whether or not the Carrs were killed to ensure their silence, Berkowitz responded: Yes

So unless he was lying for some unknown reason.......that would seem to point to him going down as a patsy, part of a larger conspiracy

I must be in the minority. I think Berkowitz acted alone.

:eek:

I don't think he acted alone. Some of the composite sketches didn't resemble him at all.

Alone.

Like the EAR-ONS case, there's always the possibility a similar event in the same time frame was wrongly attributed to the serial offender by law enforcement, but that hardly means there was a conspiracy, or multiple criminals acting together.

Alone.

Like the EAR-ONS case, there's always the possibility a similar event in the same time frame was wrongly attributed to the serial offender by law enforcement, but that hardly means there was a conspiracy, or multiple criminals acting together.

This goes back to the more improbable of my two theories........

Berkowitz could've heard about what the Carrs were doing, even had intimate knowledge of it.........then gone off and done some killing on his own and later after he was caught, try to hang the whole thing on the Carrs and their Cult.

This of course would fly in the face of just about everything that was said/mentioned on that segment.......

What I remember the most about this segment was the terrible actor who played berkowitz. The guys eyes were so over the top it was funny.

I remember seeing an interview with Berkowitz where he admitted he wasn't the only killer. He said he didn't think the police ever really believed he was the only killer. He confirmed that both of the Carrs were shooters and the interviewer named each victim and Berkowitz had said which ones he had done the shooting. He also said that there were some shooters that at the time of the interview, were still alive.

Maury Terry's book, "The Ultimate Evil," is an excellent read. He makes a very compelling case for multiple participants in the Son of Sam killings. And -- speaking of not being able to sleep for days -- I had bad, bad, BAD nightmares for weeks after reading the book! So...even though it's a fantastic book...YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED! :lol:

I don't think he acted alone. Especially at the last murder.

As seen in the Son of Sam segment on UM, A witness saw Berkowitz 1 minute before the shootings, SOME DISTANCE FROM THE SHOOTING LOCATION. It is believed that it is impossible for someone to travel that distance in that short time.

According to Wikipedia, "Berkowitz claims to have been a Satanist at the time of the murders, and suggested that he was part of a violent cult which actually perpetrated the crimes. Berkowitz claims that he did not act alone in the killings: he says he was part of an occult group which sacrificed animals to Satan and which ran a child pornography racket. Though he claims to be innocent of murder, Berkowitz says his involvement in other crimes should see him imprisoned for the rest of his life."

I don't think he acted alone. Especially at the last murder.

As seen in the Son of Sam segment on UM, A witness saw Berkowitz 1 minute before the shootings, SOME DISTANCE FROM THE SHOOTING LOCATION. It is believed that it is impossible for someone to travel that distance in that short time.

According to Wikipedia, "Berkowitz claims to have been a Satanist at the time of the murders, and suggested that he was part of a violent cult which actually perpetrated the crimes. Berkowitz claims that he did not act alone in the killings: he says he was part of an occult group which sacrificed animals to Satan and which ran a child pornography racket. Though he claims to be innocent of murder, Berkowitz says his involvement in other crimes should see him imprisoned for the rest of his life."

Maybe I can buy that he didn't act alone, but I definately don't think he was "innocent of murder."

The Son of Sam case was re-opened in 1996 due to the possibility of other accomplices. In 2004, the case was still open.

In July 2006, he was denied parole based on the same reasons he was denied parole in 2004.

According to Wikipedia, Berkowitz is very involved in prison ministry and regularly counsels troubled inmates.

According to Wikipedia, Berkowitz is very involved in prison ministry and regularly counsels troubled inmates.
I watched an interview with Berkowitz that was done rather recently. It was scary how nice and charasmatic he seemed. You would never know just by looking and talking to him :eek: I know they say that about many killers, but it was really unsettling to see.

This is a really old thread, but I thought I would bring it back to the frontlines for discussion. I definitely believe Berkowitz did not act alone. Even if you throw out the neighbor's testimony, why did every composite look completely different? I think the Carrs were definitely involved and Berkowitz was the fall guy. It might seem tempting to write this off as ''satanic panic'' but I think the evidence in this case is too compelling to ignore.

This is a really old thread, but I thought I would bring it back to the frontlines for discussion. I definitely believe Berkowitz did not act alone. Even if you throw out the neighbor's testimony, why did every composite look completely different? I think the Carrs were definitely involved and Berkowitz was the fall guy. It might seem tempting to write this off as ''satanic panic'' but I think the evidence in this case is too compelling to ignore.

I agree. The composite sketches shown on the UM segment look to me like three different people (including Berkowitz). I think Berkowitz was directly responsible for some of the homicides, but not all. I don't necessarily buy into the satanic cult angle played up on the UM segment, but I do think Berkowitz and the Carrs had a hand in planning these and carrying out these murders together.

This is probably in my top 5 favorite segments list and was very well-produced. Bumping it up to hear more thoughts!

I read The Ultimate Evil (Terry's book) years ago. While I'm not at all convinced there was a well-organized national network of Satanists committing murders as one nefarious entity (he does assert this), I do think Berkowitz and the Carrs were deeply involved in the occult and that these activities were the fuel for the slow-burning fire that probably already existed in all of them. I believe Berkowitz's old story about the Carr's dog; I think he probably did experience psychotic episodes at that time.

I am nearly absolutely certain Berkowitz did not shoot Robert Violante and Stacy Moskowitz. Besides Tommy Zaino and Caecilia Davis' testimonies, there was another witness in a vehicle who was almost hit at a traffic light near the park when a yellow Volkswagen Beetle ran the red light. The driver of the Volkswagen actually put his head out the window and yelled out an expletive at the other driver. IIRC, this person was believed to have been one of the Carr brothers.
The shooter was, according to Berkowitz, an associate of John Carr from North Dakota.

I think Berkowitz is telling the truth when he says he is responsible for only three of the murders--especially the Lauria and Valenti shooting. He looks just like the composite.

So, overall, I reject the claims made by both Terry and Berkowitz that "Satanism" was well organized and nationally linked. I do believe Berkowitz, the Carrs, and a handful of other derelicts were involved in a loose cult that denigrated into violent crime. I believe John Carr continued his occult activities while at Minot AFB and made new associates (including the UM-mentioned Phil Falcon--a known occultist, although uninvolved in any of the crimes). I think John Carr killed himself; Michael Carr was probably involved in a coincidental accident. I think Berkowitz was severely disturbed and paranoid between 1976 and 1982, perhaps understandably, and I think some of his claims were probably inflated as his mind jumped to conclusions that weren't there. But his basic story? The timing, composites, and third-party testimony support it. Despite what the NYPD says, the Queens D.A. ALWAYS felt more than one shooter had to be involved. So do I.

The Carrs were definitely involved, in my opinion. There's too much obvious pointing to other people being involved for me to overlook. He certainly didn't kill Stacy Moskowitz, unless he had superhuman speed, accuracy, and luck.

In July 2006, he was denied parole based on the same reasons he was denied parole in 2004.

I thought he had continuously refused chances for parole?

i believe he was in a cult and took the wrap for the rest and the cops won't want to hear that they were wrong if he confessed on his companions. fo real.

i believe he was in a cult and took the wrap for the rest and the cops won't want to hear that they were wrong if he confessed on his companions. fo real.

Cops should take a closer look at the dog

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/82502/simpsons-shifty-dog-o.gif

Jimmy Breslin ( the NY Columnist who Berkowitz wrote to), was apparently 100% convinced Berkowitz acted alone - Breslin he confessed his crimes to the cops in a manner that was entirely consistent with the forensic evidence.

I'd certainly take anything Berkowitz says with a truckful of salt - the first Son of Sam letter reveals him to have been utterly demented

I'd certainly take anything Berkowitz says with a truckful of salt - the first Son of Sam letter reveals him to have been utterly demented

He doesn't have any reason to lie, seeing as he'll spend the rest of his life in jail. And from what I understand, he's refused chances at parole a few times.

Cops should take a closer look at the dog

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/82502/simpsons-shifty-dog-o.gif

The dog made him do it!!

Jimmy Breslin ( the NY Columnist who Berkowitz wrote to), was apparently 100% convinced Berkowitz acted alone - Breslin he confessed his crimes to the cops in a manner that was entirely consistent with the forensic evidence.

I'd certainly take anything Berkowitz says with a truckful of salt - the first Son of Sam letter reveals him to have been utterly demented

I also think it is prudent to carefully consider Berkowitz's own words at the time of his arrest and trial, and the years immediately following. I think he was deeply mentally and emotionally disturbed at the time.

However, there is utterly compelling evidence to overwhelmingly suggest Berkowitz was not responsible for (at the very least) one shooting. I suppose I offer this: some who were actually watching Kennedy's motorcade were utterly convinced Lee Harvey Oswald couldn't have acted alone. It has been demonstrated, time and again, how Oswald could have been the lone gunman that day in November 1963. While I certainly don't doubt most of those individuals hold deep convictions about what they think, I do not at all think they are correct. Experience or interaction with the event and/or subject at hand does not necessarily equate to correct assessment. I don't believe Jimmy Breslin holds any special insight into Berkowitz's guilt simply because he received a letter from him and continued to follow and report on his story.

I also think it is prudent to carefully consider Berkowitz's own words at the time of his arrest and trial, and the years immediately following. I think he was deeply mentally and emotionally disturbed at the time.

However, there is utterly compelling evidence to overwhelmingly suggest Berkowitz was not responsible for (at the very least) one shooting. I suppose I offer this: some who were actually watching Kennedy's motorcade were utterly convinced Lee Harvey Oswald couldn't have acted alone. It has been demonstrated, time and again, how Oswald could have been the lone gunman that day in November 1963. While I certainly don't doubt most of those individuals hold deep convictions about what they think, I do not at all think they are correct. Experience or interaction with the event and/or subject at hand does not necessarily equate to correct assessment. I don't believe Jimmy Breslin holds any special insight into Berkowitz's guilt simply because he received a letter from him and continued to follow and report on his story.

It's also been demonstrated time and again how Oswald could not have been the lone gunman.

The one eyewitness (Tommy Zano, IIRC) swears the man he saw shoot the couple parked in front of him was NOT Berkowitz. I know that eyewitness accounts are wrong countless amounts of times, but this guy was sitting right where the shooter would have been standing. And Berkowitz was a very distinct looking person, so because he's so insistent that it wasn't him, coupled with the different looking composite sketches, I'd say there's a high chance that Berkowitz didn't act alone in the murders. I don't believe the nonsense about a cult, though.

It's also been demonstrated time and again how Oswald could not have been the lone gunman.

With blatant disregard for the laws of physics and ballistic theories, yes.

The one eyewitness (Tommy Zano, IIRC) swears the man he saw shoot the couple parked in front of him was NOT Berkowitz. I know that eyewitness accounts are wrong countless amounts of times, but this guy was sitting right where the shooter would have been standing. And Berkowitz was a very distinct looking person, so because he's so insistent that it wasn't him, coupled with the different looking composite sketches, I'd say there's a high chance that Berkowitz didn't act alone in the murders. I don't believe the nonsense about a cult, though.

This is part of the reason why I believe Tommy Zaino and Caecilia Davis. Berkowitz's build at the time was distinctive, and his features are distinctive. Just within the composites shown on the segment (there were others), only a single one of those profoundly resembles Berkowitz, and that was the sketch from the first shooting.

This is part of the reason why I believe Tommy Zaino and Caecilia Davis. Berkowitz's build at the time was distinctive, and his features are distinctive. Just within the composites shown on the segment (there were others), only a single one of those profoundly resembles Berkowitz, and that was the sketch from the first shooting.
I concur. ''In a week he can't get that fat.'' Great quote, not just because it's amusing, but because it demonstrates how different the build of this shooter and Berkowitz' were so different. I can understand that when one is stressed/scared they may not remember things accurately. However, I doubt Tommy Zaino would have been in such a condition that he would imagine Berkowitz to be vastly thinner/having wildly different features. Eyewitnesses can be wrong-- but what are the odds that Berkowitz did all the shootings and only one sketch and description actually looked like him? I also believe there had to be more than one shooter at large here.

With blatant disregard for the laws of physics and ballistic theories, yes.

Actually, consistent with the laws of physics and ballistic theories. It is infact the lone gunman theory which disregards said laws, and is a shoddy attempt to explain what happened. The Warren Commission investigation has been criticized time and time again by experts.

Actually, consistent with the laws of physics and ballistic theories. It is infact the lone gunman theory which disregards said laws, and is a shoddy attempt to explain what happened. The Warren Commission investigation has been criticized time and time again by experts.

http://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/jfk-conspiracy-theories-at-50-how-the-skeptics-got-it-wrong-and-why-it-matters/

^ This, all of it.


But back to Berkowitz: what are some opinions on the fates of the Carr brothers? What are your feelings on the nature of their deaths (and do you think they're in any way related to this alleged group)? Just curious as to what others might think.

http://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/jfk-conspiracy-theories-at-50-how-the-skeptics-got-it-wrong-and-why-it-matters/

^ This, all of it.



http://www.livescience.com/1560-jfk-lone-gunman-theory-flawed.html

"The conclusions were largely based on Guinn’s comparative bullet lead research. Guinn had compared the chemical make-up of five bullet fragments that came from the crime scene. His lead analysis showed the bullet bits had matching chemical fingerprints and came from two bullets, which Guinn traced back to a single batch of Mannlicher-Carcano bullets fired from Oswald’s rifle.

The analytic lay of the land, however, changed when in 2003, the National Academy of Sciences drew up new guidelines for proper bullet-lead analysis and statistical procedures, stating that past techniques were flawed."


http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2010-10/pb-jst101210.php

"G. Paul Chambers, PhD (La Plata, MD), is a contractor with the NASA Goddard Optics Branch and with Bellatrix, Inc. Formerly, he worked as the supervisory research physicist for the Energetic Materials and Detonation Science Department of the Naval Surface Warfare Center in Maryland and as a research physicist with the Condensed Matter and Radiation Sciences Division of the Naval Research Laboratory in Washington, DC."

I highly recommend the book 'Head Shot'.

While I fully believe that the Carr brothers met their ends in exactly the life they had chosen, I haven't learned enough about their deaths to prove it was in relation to a group that was tired of them or if they were legitimately unrelated. But it wouldn't surprise me if they were.

But back to Berkowitz: what are some opinions on the fates of the Carr brothers? What are your feelings on the nature of their deaths (and do you think they're in any way related to this alleged group)? Just curious as to what others might think.

I think there's a possibility of the Carr's invovlement in the Son of Sam murders, but I doubt their deaths had anything to do with a cult like group. I believe the investigator in the UM segment was on to something, but tried too hard to prove a cult existed.

I watched an interview with Berkowitz that was done rather recently. It was scary how nice and charasmatic he seemed. You would never know just by looking and talking to him :eek: I know they say that about many killers, but it was really unsettling to see.



My father was in prison with him.

Swore to me that he didn't commit all the murders he was convicted of.

The case is still open if I recall, but no one is talking.

Speaking of son of Sam, I recently moved into the building(2860 Buhre Avenue
Bronx, New York) where the Bronx murder of Donna Lauria took place.

The one eyewitness (Tommy Zano, IIRC) swears the man he saw shoot the couple parked in front of him was NOT Berkowitz. I know that eyewitness accounts are wrong countless amounts of times, but this guy was sitting right where the shooter would have been standing. And Berkowitz was a very distinct looking person, so because he's so insistent that it wasn't him, coupled with the different looking composite sketches, I'd say there's a high chance that Berkowitz didn't act alone in the murders. I don't believe the nonsense about a cult, though.

I don't understand why people have such a hard time believing in cults, when they are proven to exist over and over again. The Manson Family, Branch Davidians, Jim Jones, Nelson DeCleod, Heaven's Gate. The reality is there are a lot of power hungry charismatic people out there that get gratification out of controlling others.

Now granted, I'm not saying its definitive there was a cult, but we have random shootings here with no apparent motive done by multiple people collaborating. That's not something that happens everyday and the motivations are not overly plentiful.

I don't understand why people have such a hard time believing in cults, when they are proven to exist over and over again. The Manson Family, Branch Davidians, Jim Jones, Nelson DeCleod, Heaven's Gate. The reality is there are a lot of power hungry charismatic people out there that get gratification out of controlling others.

Now granted, I'm not saying its definitive there was a cult, but we have random shootings here with no apparent motive done by multiple people collaborating. That's not something that happens everyday and the motivations are not overly plentiful.

I don't think it's so much the concept of a cult that I find difficult to believe (all of those you named certainly existed, as you pointed out, and I DO think Berkowitz, the Carr brothers, and a handful of other Yonkers locals were in a loosely organized cult), but the theory put forth by Maury Terry that the SoS murders were just one act of a completely organized, national network of homicidal satanists is not one I can buy. He claims the 1974 murder of Arlis Perry at Stanford University was the result of someone "linked in" to this network--Berkowitz being the source of this information back in the late '70s and early '80s. There is not only no evidence to suggest a network of killers, but none whatsoever linking Perry's (horrific) murder with the SoS shootings.

So I agree with you: cults are definitely not outside the realm of possibility, and there's plenty of evidence to suggest Berkowitz and the Carrs had one going. But Terry's ultimate conclusion? Nah.

I don't think it's so much the concept of a cult that I find difficult to believe (all of those you named certainly existed, as you pointed out, and I DO think Berkowitz, the Carr brothers, and a handful of other Yonkers locals were in a loosely organized cult), but the theory put forth by Maury Terry that the SoS murders were just one act of a completely organized, national network of homicidal satanists is not one I can buy. He claims the 1974 murder of Arlis Perry at Stanford University was the result of someone "linked in" to this network--Berkowitz being the source of this information back in the late '70s and early '80s. There is not only no evidence to suggest a network of killers, but none whatsoever linking Perry's (horrific) murder with the SoS shootings.

So I agree with you: cults are definitely not outside the realm of possibility, and there's plenty of evidence to suggest Berkowitz and the Carrs had one going. But Terry's ultimate conclusion? Nah.

You summed up my thoughts for me. Thanks!

I don't think it's so much the concept of a cult that I find difficult to believe (all of those you named certainly existed, as you pointed out, and I DO think Berkowitz, the Carr brothers, and a handful of other Yonkers locals were in a loosely organized cult), but the theory put forth by Maury Terry that the SoS murders were just one act of a completely organized, national network of homicidal satanists is not one I can buy. He claims the 1974 murder of Arlis Perry at Stanford University was the result of someone "linked in" to this network--Berkowitz being the source of this information back in the late '70s and early '80s. There is not only no evidence to suggest a network of killers, but none whatsoever linking Perry's (horrific) murder with the SoS shootings.

So I agree with you: cults are definitely not outside the realm of possibility, and there's plenty of evidence to suggest Berkowitz and the Carrs had one going. But Terry's ultimate conclusion? Nah.

Ok....... so you admit there is a good possibility of a cult. You are just skeptical that it was some sort of nationwide well organized group of Satanists. I can go along with that, very good discussion here.

So the question is, how large and organized was the group responsible for these murders? Like you I do find it pretty far fetched its a nationwide network, something like that would be a way bigger news story now. But the thing is, if there is one shooter still at large the case still has relevance. And I think there is a pretty good chance the Stacy Moscowitts shooter is still at large, because he doesn't resemble Berkowitz or the Carrs. And could there also be a Charles Manson-like cult leader still out there who master minded the shootings?

My guess is that there are still at least two people at large who had direct involvement in the shootings attributed entirely to Berkowitz, and probably more. I agree that it wasn't a nationwide group, but I don't discount the possibility that it was larger than is believed either, somewhere around twenty to thirty. What do you think?

Ok....... so you admit there is a good possibility of a cult. You are just skeptical that it was some sort of nationwide well organized group of Satanists. I can go along with that, very good discussion here.

So the question is, how large and organized was the group responsible for these murders? Like you I do find it pretty far fetched its a nationwide network, something like that would be a way bigger news story now. But the thing is, if there is one shooter still at large the case still has relevance. And I think there is a pretty good chance the Stacy Moscowitts shooter is still at large, because he doesn't resemble Berkowitz or the Carrs. And could there also be a Charles Manson-like cult leader still out there who master minded the shootings?

My guess is that there are still at least two people at large who had direct involvement in the shootings attributed entirely to Berkowitz, and probably more. I agree that it wasn't a nationwide group, but I don't discount the possibility that it was larger than is believed either, somewhere around twenty to thirty. What do you think?

Sure, absolutely the likelihood of a cult. I do think one existed.

I don't believe the group consisted of over ten people myself, though. I think this was probably a derelict, loosely organized group of people within which existed an even smaller group (the SoS shooters) that tightened up because they had to tighten up, as they had to protect and cover one another (in the closest sense that a group of criminals can actually do that).