View Full Version : Military/Government Unsolved Mysteries


elvisfan
10-31-2006, 04:29 PM
I've seen a bunch of these but have forgotten the names and exact cases. Anyone?

greatgarrett2
11-01-2006, 12:41 AM
No problem-

1. Justin Burwinkle.....the guy who was stationed near Tacoma, Washington and went missing. Before his dissappearence he made a cryptic reference to the movie 'White Sands'. His car was found abandoned at a remote Northern California motel, with his dog-tag.

2. Frank Olsen.....apparently the government agency he was working for slipped him a laced drink with LSD, along with other scientists who were slipped drinks also. Olsen was acting paranoid in the days prior to his death, then he supposedly committed suicide by 'jumping' from a ten-storey window that was actually 13 stories off the ground. Was it suicide or murder?

3. Ralph Sigler.....died under mysterious circumstances in a Maryland motel room (I believe it was Maryland, correct me if I'm wrong, tho).

4. Mark Dennis.....A Navy Medic who started to serve in Vietnam in 1966. That same year, his family received word that he was in a helicopter and that it had been brought down, resulting in Dennis' death. They immediately accepted his death. But, when the casket was returned to the US, the body in it was so badly burned that a uniform (possibly his) was placed over the remains. Then a man came forward saying he thought he saw Dennis AFTER his date of death. Various sightings and evidence suggests it was not Mark who perished in that helicopter and that Mark shouldn't have been on that flight. Speculation ran that Mark dennis was a possible POW.......did he perish with the helicopter or was he being held years after?

Hope that helps.....if I think of anymore, I'll post them.

baton_man
11-02-2006, 05:56 PM
No problem-

1. Justin Burwinkle.....the guy who was stationed near Tacoma, Washington and went missing. Before his dissappearence he made a cryptic reference to the movie 'White Sands'. His car was found abandoned at a remote Northern California motel, with his dog-tag.

2. Frank Olsen.....apparently the government agency he was working for slipped him a laced drink with LSD, along with other scientists who were slipped drinks also. Olsen was acting paranoid in the days prior to his death, then he supposedly committed suicide by 'jumping' from a ten-storey window that was actually 13 stories off the ground. Was it suicide or murder?

3. Ralph Sigler.....died under mysterious circumstances in a Maryland motel room (I believe it was Maryland, correct me if I'm wrong, tho).

4. Mark Dennis.....A Navy Medic who started to serve in Vietnam in 1966. That same year, his family received word that he was in a helicopter and that it had been brought down, resulting in Dennis' death. They immediately accepted his death. But, when the casket was returned to the US, the body in it was so badly burned that a uniform (possibly his) was placed over the remains. Then a man came forward saying he thought he saw Dennis AFTER his date of death. Various sightings and evidence suggests it was not Mark who perished in that helicopter and that Mark shouldn't have been on that flight. Speculation ran that Mark dennis was a possible POW.......did he perish with the helicopter or was he being held years after?

Hope that helps.....if I think of anymore, I'll post them.
you are correct in reference to the Ralph Sigler account. It occurred near Fort George G. Meade. I live right down the road from the hotel it occurred at.

Gatorsgold
08-09-2007, 11:27 PM
Baton Man;
I personally know the Sigler family and they have suffered alot through the years. Mr. Sigler's daughter has written many FOIA letters all the government agencies Mr. Sigler was associated with. She has received alot of blacked out responses and most recently a letter stating that this case was secured under the "Patriot Act". Maybe some day someone will clear their conscious or someone will come forward and help this family solve this mystery. One thing i can tell you for sure is that it was a murder not a suicide. Gator

ForeverPluto
08-10-2007, 02:53 PM
What about the two men who supposedly committed suicide within days of each other. I think one of the guys was found hanging from a tree and the other guy was found hanging from his locker or something like that. Both were in the army. Both married or were involved with Asian women at the time of their deaths. Very bizarre cases...


Also the cases of Chad Lankfort, Justin Burgwinkel (sp??), Ralph Siegler. These are theone I remember off hand...

UMfan77
08-10-2007, 03:16 PM
How about Digman (forgot his first name). He was a Marine and was found dead in his home. The parents say it was murder but the police say it was suicide. The parents believe the murder was connected to their son's military duties.

James T
08-10-2007, 06:08 PM
And it is not just in America, over here we have had several deaths at an army base called Deepcut of young soldiers which have been ruled as suicides when there is strong evidence the people were often being bullied and were shot by other soldiers or persons unknown in a very similar manner to those shown on UM. This evidence has been covered up at every opportunity by the army and police force.

DP1
08-12-2007, 01:56 AM
How about Digman (forgot his first name). He was a Marine and was found dead in his home. The parents say it was murder but the police say it was suicide. The parents believe the murder was connected to their son's military duties.

I remember that case. I always found it strange that his friend, a fellow Marine, didn't want to go into the house without one of the neighbors. He was a Marine, I would have thought he'd have gone in alone.

Todd Mueller
08-12-2007, 11:23 PM
There is one on the "Bizarre Murders" DVD set about the military transport plane that crashed in Nova Scotia (I think) under strange circumstances. There is strong evidence to believe that they were carrying illegal cargo that caused the crash.

And the Lost Dutchman's Mine had military in it, as it was believed the military came in and took the gold from the family that found it. That was a good one too.

CanadianUMFan
08-14-2007, 03:31 PM
There is one on the "Bizarre Murders" DVD set about the military transport plane that crashed in Nova Scotia (I think) under strange circumstances. There is strong evidence to believe that they were carrying illegal cargo that caused the crash.

One correction - the plane crashed near Gander, Newfoundland.

Todd Mueller
08-15-2007, 12:31 AM
One correction - the plane crashed near Gander, Newfoundland.

DOH! I knew it was Canada and a province that starts with "N" but couldn't remember which one. :crazy:

Thanks for the correction! ;)

synthisislab
05-05-2008, 04:13 AM
What were the details of the Ralph Sigler case and wasn't there another one that happened on base and it involved a MP (I believe) who was shot at the on base gas pumping facilities?

themaninblack
05-05-2008, 04:48 PM
WOW!

charmedsignora
05-05-2008, 04:57 PM
wasn't there another one that happened on base and it involved a MP (I believe) who was shot at the on base gas pumping facilities?

I think I remember that one. Was that they case where they found him lying on a rock, and they couldn't determine if it was murder or suicide? (If not, I must be thinking of a different case. Sorry!)

jasonbigley
05-09-2008, 05:31 PM
You know, if the government or military is truly involved in these cases, I hope they will be punished in some way. We may not know the actual truth, but the good Lord knows exactly whats going on. It seems that government is getting more crooked.

MegtheEgg86
06-19-2008, 05:20 PM
Does anyone recall the case about the MP stationed at either Ft. Jackson or Ft. Knox (I honestly can't remember which....it may have even been Ft. Benning; I'm unsure. Sorry!) in 1989, who was on patrol one night and was found dead beside his patrol car, laid out straightly with his pistol and a bullet casing sitting neatly by his side? I've always thought that one was pretty chilling.

crystaldawn
06-19-2008, 08:15 PM
Does anyone recall the case about the MP stationed at either Ft. Jackson or Ft. Knox (I honestly can't remember which....it may have even been Ft. Benning; I'm unsure. Sorry!) in 1989, who was on patrol one night and was found dead beside his patrol car, laid out straightly with his pistol and a bullet casing sitting neatly by his side? I've always thought that one was pretty chilling.

Yes that was one was very bizarre. Chad Lankford was his name.

Welcome to the board btw...:)

MegtheEgg86
06-19-2008, 09:44 PM
Thanks for the welcome. :)

It's good to at least have a name to go with the case. I haven't seen that segment in forever and always wondered what became of the case. There wasn't an update, to my knowledge.

DP1
06-19-2008, 09:47 PM
Anyone remember the one where the Army guy went missing and he was declared a deserter. The government never told his brother how he died but at the end of the episode, Stack said they changed his status to killed in action. That surprised me because usually these cases are often wild goose chases but the brother was right on this one. The suspcion was that his brother was CIA and the CIA doesn't tell how their operatives die. Anyone remember this case?

I don't know if this was related to this case or not but there was another one where this guy died and days later, his best friend disappeared. His plane had crashed and they found the wreckage more than a year later but the serial number on the plane was different than the one he took off in. This was mentioned at the end of a segment.

Sorry for being a little vague but I can't remember all the details exactly.

MegtheEgg86
06-20-2008, 04:14 AM
Yes that was one was very bizarre. Chad Lankford was his name.


I found it on the episodes guide. Boy, was I totally off on that one---he was actually at Redstone Arsenal (I could've SWORN it was Ft. Jackson) and was murdered in 1992, not 1989.


All I remember is that there were no real suspects, no real motive. Really, really shady sort of stuff.

Cori aka ChrisSCrush
06-20-2008, 04:18 AM
Most intriguing to me was a young man named Kurt believed to have gone missing in Vietnam. The government kept claiming he was dead, but family members swore they saw him in the Washington, D. C. area--that he appears to be doing some top secret work and is unable to contact them directly but has greeted them indirectly.

MegtheEgg86
12-14-2012, 04:25 PM
I noticed this today. December 12th was the 27th anniversary of the Gander International Airport incident which was featured on UM. Here is the caption to the photo:

Michelle Leibold and her sister Amy Lawrence say a prayer while kneeling in front of the Gander Monument which holds the etched name of Maj. Michael R. Lawrence, their father, who was killed when Arrow Airlines Flight 1285 crashed post takeoff from Gander International Airport, ending the lives of 248 Screaming Eagle Soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault), December 12, 1985. Lawrence and the Soldiers were returning home from their deployment to Sinai, Egypt, where they successfully enabled peace between Israel and Egypt. Every year the 101st honors the Gander Fallen with ceremonies on post and in the neighboring communities, ensuring their Fallen Heroes as well as their Family members are never forgotten.(U.S. Army photo by Sgt. Joe Padula, 2nd BCT PAO, 101st Abn. Div.) (Photo by U.S. Army)

I never really thought this was much of a mystery; I definitely think it was an accident, but I think it's great the 101st still remembers and honors these Soldiers.

1990 UM fan
12-15-2012, 02:01 AM
Ray Hickenbotham was another rare case. He was a codebreaker for the CIA and later went missing. His wife and daughter went to the media for information about Ray's disappearance. An informant came forward and said that Ray faked his death to go underground after uncovering leaks about atomic energy. Ray has still never been found.

1990 UM fan
12-15-2012, 02:04 AM
Anyone remember the one where the Army guy went missing and he was declared a deserter. The government never told his brother how he died but at the end of the episode, Stack said they changed his status to killed in action. That surprised me because usually these cases are often wild goose chases but the brother was right on this one. The suspcion was that his brother was CIA and the CIA doesn't tell how their operatives die. Anyone remember this case?

I don't know if this was related to this case or not but there was another one where this guy died and days later, his best friend disappeared. His plane had crashed and they found the wreckage more than a year later but the serial number on the plane was different than the one he took off in. This was mentioned at the end of a segment.

Sorry for being a little vague but I can't remember all the details exactly.

Is this it?: http://unsolvedmysteries.wikia.com/wiki/Lt._Paul_Whipkey

McBevis
12-19-2012, 09:54 PM
Anyone remember the one where the Army guy went missing and he was declared a deserter. The government never told his brother how he died but at the end of the episode, Stack said they changed his status to killed in action. That surprised me because usually these cases are often wild goose chases but the brother was right on this one. The suspcion was that his brother was CIA and the CIA doesn't tell how their operatives die. Anyone remember this case?

I don't know if this was related to this case or not but there was another one where this guy died and days later, his best friend disappeared. His plane had crashed and they found the wreckage more than a year later but the serial number on the plane was different than the one he took off in. This was mentioned at the end of a segment.

Sorry for being a little vague but I can't remember all the details exactly.

The first one you mentioned is the case of Paul Whipkey. His car was found abandoned in the desert lands of Death Valley with a large pile of cigarette butts next to it (it was mentioned that Whipkey didn't smoke, so that in itself is enough to tell you right there that something secretive and highly questionable was taking place. As far as I know, there has never been any closure to this one, but I believe that he's probably dead at this point.

Also, with pretty much any UM case where the government or military is involved, you can rest (and I use the word "rest" loosely) assured that it will most likely never be solved. Sad and frustrating, I know, but it just seems that way with these types of cases.

scc1222
12-20-2012, 02:11 AM
IMO I think the gov't may have killed Paul,due to him having been exposed to radiation levels so high he had to have his teeth removed.I think they thought perhaps he would either just be too much of an expense for them later on,with possible cancer issues caused by radiation,and/or they didn't want ppl to know the true effects of radiation and what it could do (or what he was exposed to).Or perhaps they felt Paul himself knew too much.But I think it had something to do with his past and possibly the radiation,and not that he was recruited for a special mission.I got the feeling the men sent to recruit him (and the whole story) were shady at best,and they were sent to recruit him so the gov't could kill him,not so they could send him on a special mission.JMO.

McBevis
12-20-2012, 02:35 PM
IMO I think the gov't may have killed Paul,due to him having been exposed to radiation levels so high he had to have his teeth removed.I think they thought perhaps he would either just be too much of an expense for them later on,with possible cancer issues caused by radiation,and/or they didn't want ppl to know the true effects of radiation and what it could do (or what he was exposed to).Or perhaps they felt Paul himself knew too much.But I think it had something to do with his past and possibly the radiation,and not that he was recruited for a special mission.I got the feeling the men sent to recruit him (and the whole story) were shady at best,and they were sent to recruit him so the gov't could kill him,not so they could send him on a special mission.JMO.

I think you're probably right, but in any case, it makes me pretty sick to know that they would commit murder simply because they considered him an "expense." And if they didn't want people knowing about the effects of radiation, well that's just too bad. It's their own damn fault for exposing him to radiation in the first place, and in addition to him not deserving to be killed, the family certainly doesn't deserve decades of torture over not knowing the truth.

Sadly, I think the military gets away with stuff like this more often than even good, honest military people would probably care to admit.

scc1222
12-21-2012, 09:03 AM
I think you're probably right, but in any case, it makes me pretty sick to know that they would commit murder simply because they considered him an "expense." And if they didn't want people knowing about the effects of radiation, well that's just too bad. It's their own damn fault for exposing him to radiation in the first place, and in addition to him not deserving to be killed, the family certainly doesn't deserve decades of torture over not knowing the truth.

Sadly, I think the military gets away with stuff like this more often than even good, honest military people would probably care to admit.
I totally agree!
And I got the feeling,from seeing the segment,that Paul (deep down) knew the truth of the matter...that there was no special mission whereby he would become a hero,and that they were there to make sure he was done away with.Why else would they be so persistant? And when they said his whole personality just changed after that...I think he may have felt it would have been fruitless to fight it,that they would get him one way or another,and so,perhaps even in denial (?),he agreed to the 'mission'.

I just recall,after seeing that segment for the first time...that,wow...the gov't really DOES kill their own ppl! To me it was confirmation. :/

soilentgreen
12-21-2012, 11:12 AM
There's also the Baron 52 plane crash, Charles Shelton, Robert Curt Borton.

Ralph Sigler, Frank Olsen, and Paul Whipkey's cases involved more questionable organizational behavior than others that shared the military/government angle. At the least, there was a failure to disclose information in both Olsen's and Whipkey's cases to their families. I don't think that Whipkey was necessarily murdered; Olsen's case is extremely disturbing, whether his death was accidental or not.

DALLASTEXAN!!
01-06-2013, 03:45 PM
You know, if the government or military is truly involved in these cases, I hope they will be punished in some way. We may not know the actual truth, but the good Lord knows exactly whats going on. It seems that government is getting more crooked.
I actually think that the govt/military is no more crooked now than it ever was. In fact I would say that the military is more professional now than it ever has been. There is so much media today that it is very difficult to get away with things compared to in The past where they pretty much had complete autonomy to do things. The culture within the military has changed as american culture has changed. People make the mistake of alienating military like they are a foreign phenomena and in fact they are our sons daughters husbands and wives and only know what they need to know to do their duty everyday.

Corruption exists in all walks of humanity. 98-99% of military are honorable people.

scc1222
01-06-2013, 08:39 PM
well,I certainly find it odd that Whipkey was pursued and convinced to go on some sort of secret mission,esp. given his past of rad. exposure.I got the feeling he was pursued so heavily that he finally felt he had no choice but to agree.I think perhaps the gov't considered his exposure to be too much of a future liability to them,but that is jmo.

greatgarrett2
01-20-2013, 02:43 AM
The mysterious crash at Gander. Happened in 1985, I believe.

greatgarrett2
01-20-2013, 02:50 AM
The mysterious crash at Gander. Happened in 1985, I believe.

Perhaps indirectly, but Danny Cassalaro comes to mind as well. He was the journalist who died mysteriously in a West Virginia motel room and the debate is murder or suicide. He was investigating scandals possibly with government involvement.

Necco
01-20-2013, 02:54 AM
The mysterious crash at Gander. Happened in 1985, I believe.


Arrow Air was a nightmare. I flew them in the very early 80s. They actually rerouted our flight in midair to accommodate other passengers on board. They were supposed to fly City A-> City B-> City C. Some of the City C passengers somehow convinced them to fly there first, despite it being further away. This was in addition to CRAZY long delays. I think it took us like 12 hours to get through a flight that should have been 2. Because it was technically a charter, they got away with it.

The reports found that in all probability the plane crashed due to icing conditions. There was some "mystery" because Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility. Both the US and Canadian governments believed they were just taking advantage of the opportunity to get credit.

nikkspence
09-06-2013, 04:44 AM
Yes that was one was very bizarre. Chad Lankford was his name.

Welcome to the board btw...:)

Chads case! WOW!?!?!

Didn't he have something stuffed in his mouth and letters wrote on his hand?
This is so scary and weird! They believed it was suicide but from the information I had read a while back I strongly believe it was murder.

Chilling really!

bell83
09-06-2013, 03:38 PM
Chads case! WOW!?!?!

Didn't he have something stuffed in his mouth and letters wrote on his hand?
This is so scary and weird! They believed it was suicide but from the information I had read a while back I strongly believe it was murder.

Chilling really!

His patrol cap (similar to a baseball cap, basically) was stuffed in his mouth. He had "March 3 Robert" written on his hand. The circumstances do look like murder to me (the buttons from his BDUs ripped, the position he was in, etc), but I am, in no way, qualified on the subject. ;)

nikkspence
09-06-2013, 03:52 PM
His patrol cap (similar to a baseball cap, basically) was stuffed in his mouth. He had "March 3 Robert" written on his hand. The circumstances do look like murder to me (the buttons from his BDUs ripped, the position he was in, etc), but I am, in no way, qualified on the subject. ;)

I agree 100% that it has to be murder. Its crazy how any one can look the evidence and conclude suicide.

Its just too crazy to even think about? Why would he kill him self and make it look like murder just to glorify himsef?

I simply dont understand the case and i defo think it was a cover up!

nikkspence
09-06-2013, 03:56 PM
march 3

Chad was found dead on march 12 so it can not have been inrefrance to the day he died.

I do realize that march is the 3rd month so maybe that is what it meant.

Although just out of intrest I would love to find out what Chad did on march 3rd and if he knew any one by the name rober

MegtheEgg86
09-06-2013, 06:12 PM
The scene clearly indicates someone else was there. There is absolutely no way he could have ended up on top of his M9 after shooting himself in the head.

I think Chad Langford's death could have been a revenge killing. I do not believe the allegations that he was involved in any "undercover work" concerning drugs. I DO believe he could have been involved in a robbery plot, or was at least approached by conspirators of a robbery plot.

bell83
09-06-2013, 09:35 PM
The scene clearly indicates someone else was there. There is absolutely no way he could have ended up on top of his M9 after shooting himself in the head.

Yes. That was the other thing. I couldn't remember the other specifics, but I remembered that he was lying on something unusual. I agree. I fail to see how it's possible for someone to shoot himself in the head, then land on his weapon. Call me crazy....

I tend to lean toward the possibility that he just knew some stuff he shouldn't have, or that he happened upon something he shouldn't have. It's entirely possible the writing on his hand means absolutely nothing (as far as the case is concerned), and is just something unrelated he wrote down, not having any paper to write on. The original Palm Pilot :lol:

Is it possible he was working undercover on something? Sure, it's possible, but I doubt it.

But just because you're paranoid, don't mean they're not after you...:eek: :D

MegtheEgg86
09-06-2013, 11:50 PM
The original Palm Pilot :lol:

:lol:

nikkspence
09-07-2013, 02:52 AM
If he had wrote it down on his hand not having any paper to me that says '3rd march Robert' ... March 3rd was 9 days before that .. How would it still be on his hand

bell83
09-07-2013, 01:58 PM
It doesn't mean it was written there on or before the third. And it doesn't mean it has anything to do with his death. At any given time, I have scraps of paper on me with notes I've written myself for various reasons that, if someone found them, would totally confuse them. The reason is I wrote them, and I know what they mean. I'm trying to remember something. All I'm saying is without knowing why he wrote it, and without having anything to go on, you can't say that it absolutely is a clue in his death. I'm not saying it can't be. I'm just saying it's just as possible it isn't.

nikkspence
09-07-2013, 06:33 PM
It doesn't mean it was written there on or before the third. And it doesn't mean it has anything to do with his death. At any given time, I have scraps of paper on me with notes I've written myself for various reasons that, if someone found them, would totally confuse them. The reason is I wrote them, and I know what they mean. I'm trying to remember something. All I'm saying is without knowing why he wrote it, and without having anything to go on, you can't say that it absolutely is a clue in his death. I'm not saying it can't be. I'm just saying it's just as possible it isn't.

The fact that no reports indicate if it was his own handwriting seems interesting to me, as if it was his own message why would there be any need to note this or to make it public?

It may have been a message from the killer to warn others who also have information that could have negative outcome i.e drug deals or robbery

MegtheEgg86
09-07-2013, 07:52 PM
I'm in agreement with bell83. I think the writing on Langford's hand could be a big red herring. People write phone numbers, times, dates, notes of all kinds on their hands all the time. If I were found deceased under mysterious circumstances, there's no telling what on earth someone might deduce happened to me from looking through the various notes and reminders I currently have in my purse.

The writing could be related to the case. It could just as easily not be.

UM has always had a tendency to play up certain aspects of cases in order to make them seem as "mysterious" as possible. Seems this segment is no exception.

bell83
09-08-2013, 03:40 PM
UM has always had a tendency to play up certain aspects of cases in order to make them seem as "mysterious" as possible. Seems this segment is no exception.

Like 49RHUGS...if I remember what I read a few years back, regarding Dick Hansen, correctly.

nikkspence
09-08-2013, 06:07 PM
The writing could be related to the case. It could just as easily not be.

UM has always had a tendency to play up certain aspects of cases in order to make them seem as "mysterious" as possible. Seems this segment is no exception.

Yes but I just love it =D the more mysterious the better

DALLASTEXAN!!
01-30-2025, 10:10 PM
I noticed this today. December 12th was the 27th anniversary of the Gander International Airport incident which was featured on UM. Here is the caption to the photo:

Michelle Leibold and her sister Amy Lawrence say a prayer while kneeling in front of the Gander Monument which holds the etched name of Maj. Michael R. Lawrence, their father, who was killed when Arrow Airlines Flight 1285 crashed post takeoff from Gander International Airport, ending the lives of 248 Screaming Eagle Soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault), December 12, 1985. Lawrence and the Soldiers were returning home from their deployment to Sinai, Egypt, where they successfully enabled peace between Israel and Egypt. Every year the 101st honors the Gander Fallen with ceremonies on post and in the neighboring communities, ensuring their Fallen Heroes as well as their Family members are never forgotten.(U.S. Army photo by Sgt. Joe Padula, 2nd BCT PAO, 101st Abn. Div.) (Photo by U.S. Army)

I never really thought this was much of a mystery; I definitely think it was an accident, but I think it's great the 101st still remembers and honors these Soldiers.
I saw this segment today. I wasn't seeking it out and it was really hard to watch considering the crash last night in Washington. That crash also reminded me of a prior crash in DC that was due to inclement weather.

I think that icing brought the plane down. we have seen this happen in other crashes as well and can be very dangerous to flight control surfaces. I do wonder about the cargo that was onboard and if there were hazardous material or weaponry that the Army did not want to acknowledge. that could explain some of the dissent from investigators and curious observations from witnesses. I do wonder about the US Army not fully cooperating with the investigation, although some of those claims could be overblown if it was a contracted flight the Army would have to give way to jurisdiction with Canada and other civil agencies.

Dogface82
01-31-2025, 03:59 AM
Arrow Air was a nightmare. I flew them in the very early 80s. They actually rerouted our flight in midair to accommodate other passengers on board. They were supposed to fly City A-> City B-> City C. Some of the City C passengers somehow convinced them to fly there first, despite it being further away. This was in addition to CRAZY long delays. I think it took us like 12 hours to get through a flight that should have been 2. Because it was technically a charter, they got away with it.

The reports found that in all probability the plane crashed due to icing conditions. There was some "mystery" because Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility. Both the US and Canadian governments believed they were just taking advantage of the opportunity to get credit.

Unfortunately the tragic incident probably belongs in the last multiple choice answer all of the above.
1) Arrow Airlines were a nightmare to fly. I had a similar experience to that above. We had reservists who worked at the Aircraft plant in Washington. They noticed defects during a layover. We had a solid chain of command so the problems were corrected. Arrow and some military were worse than useless. The Newfies were great.

2) The aircraft was certainly over weight because passenger and carry on weight was estimated not measured. A soldier and his carryon was about double a normal civilian passenger.

3) Dangerous cargo. The "new" half size lithium batteries for the military radios were widely issued at the time. No special training or precautions. My guess is a minimum of 60 were board in the cargo and carry on. Bottled oxygen, alchohol, and the list goes on.

4) Insufficient de-icing

5) Possible attempts by various groups that wanted the US out of the middle east. If even a normally ineffective attempt was made it would have succeded bcause this was an accident waiting to happen.

6) The last time I flew Arrow in the 1988-89 I gave my window seat to a new guy who had never flown. He exitedly asked if the engine was supposed to be so bright. I said "It's a jet." I looked anyway. The nearest starboard engine was engulfed in flame. I alerted a stewardess, her eyes bugged. She notified the pilots. They cut the fuel. Other than my row no one seemed to notice. Arrow was a nightmare to fly.

7) The mystery is it didn't happen sooner.

Dude111
01-31-2025, 12:32 PM
The Helicopter ppl probably were on a suicide mission.. They told them to change course AND THEY DID NOT!!


I think (and many others do also) it was done on purpose..

What I dont understand is why they didnt shoot the helicopter down...

DALLASTEXAN!!
01-31-2025, 08:54 PM
The Helicopter ppl probably were on a suicide mission.. They told them to change course AND THEY DID NOT!!


I think (and many others do also) it was done on purpose..

What I dont understand is why they didnt shoot the helicopter down...

I don't agree, but time will tell what happened.

Dogface82
01-31-2025, 09:42 PM
The Helicopter ppl probably were on a suicide mission.. They told them to change course AND THEY DID NOT!!


I think (and many others do also) it was done on purpose..

What I dont understand is why they didnt shoot the helicopter down...

The UM topic was the 1985 Gander crash. I am guessing you are referring to collision of American Eagle flight 5432 and an Army Blackhawk helicopter January 29,2025.

1) Attempting to shoot down the helicopter would be impractical. The end result would probably be the same 2 or more aircraft down in the Potomac with no survivors.

2) The recovery and investigation are ongoing. I am with DallasTexan on this one. Only time will tell.

Dude111
01-31-2025, 10:08 PM
I hear ya!! (Yes I was referring to it)

DALLASTEXAN!!
05-18-2025, 05:01 PM
Unfortunately the tragic incident probably belongs in the last multiple choice answer all of the above.
1) Arrow Airlines were a nightmare to fly. I had a similar experience to that above. We had reservists who worked at the Aircraft plant in Washington. They noticed defects during a layover. We had a solid chain of command so the problems were corrected. Arrow and some military were worse than useless. The Newfies were great.

2) The aircraft was certainly over weight because passenger and carry on weight was estimated not measured. A soldier and his carryon was about double a normal civilian passenger.

3) Dangerous cargo. The "new" half size lithium batteries for the military radios were widely issued at the time. No special training or precautions. My guess is a minimum of 60 were board in the cargo and carry on. Bottled oxygen, alchohol, and the list goes on.

4) Insufficient de-icing

5) Possible attempts by various groups that wanted the US out of the middle east. If even a normally ineffective attempt was made it would have succeded bcause this was an accident waiting to happen.

6) The last time I flew Arrow in the 1988-89 I gave my window seat to a new guy who had never flown. He exitedly asked if the engine was supposed to be so bright. I said "It's a jet." I looked anyway. The nearest starboard engine was engulfed in flame. I alerted a stewardess, her eyes bugged. She notified the pilots. They cut the fuel. Other than my row no one seemed to notice. Arrow was a nightmare to fly.

7) The mystery is it didn't happen sooner.

The icing is likely in itself what brought the plane down. not to say that a plane being too heavy could have been possible, but a plane can be at max weight and still flown if the plane's thrust mechanisms and flight control surfaces are functional. if flight control surfaces do not function during take off and landing to provide adequate lift, the plane will crash. it could also be blamed on poor practices by airlines/aircrews/and maintenance. a de-icer machine just before takeoff and anti icing features on an aircraft are enough to combat icing on flight control surfaces and wings.