Enjoyed Moonlighting so far? That’s great. Here’s where things start to get problematic. By the third season, the production crew was getting more and more behind schedule -- despite a full production order, the staff only got FOURTEEN shows produced -- hence the small number in this DVD set. In addition, this is the season when ratings begin to slide -- in part due to the frequent reruns, but also due to Maddie and David sleeping together at the end of season three -- the moment many feel the show “jump the shark” (IE: began its downward trend). In addition, due to Bruce’s growing movie career, his skiing accident, Cybill’s pregnancy…it just gets progressively more problematic. Then there’s Walter Bishop.

For the uninitiated -- as I was when I started this review series -- Moonlighting was a drama-comedy hybrid (a “dramedy”) take on the mass of detective series of that era. The show ran on ABC from 1985 for 1989, with a total of 66 episodes. The series revolved cases investigated by Maddie Hayes (Shepherd) and David Addison (Willis), the proprietors of Blue Moon Investigations. Hayes is a former model, who finds herself bankrupt after her accountant embezzles all of her liquid assets. She’s left only with a few failing businesses used as tax write-offs. One of these failed businesses is the agency, helmed by Addison. In the beginning of the show, he convinces her to help run the agency with him. The show also stared Allyce Beasley as Agnes DiPesto, the agency’s receptionist. By season 4, Curtis Armstrong had joined the cast as Herbert Viola. The series was noted both for its use of breaking the fourth wall, as well as its extensive use of fantasy sequences.

Read our review here:
http://www.sitcomsonline.com/moonlightingseason4dvdreview.html

Post any questions or comments about this set.

You`d better run and take cover after a comment like that:lol:
No way did it jump the shark when David and Madde slept together , i mean ( i can`t speak for everyone else on this ) but i feel that it had to lead up to this point regardless of Cybills pregnancy , fair enough they may have been able to keep them apart for one more season but it would have been bordering on the insane . David and Maddie were both consenting adults with no commitments elsewhere and and yes `loved` each other so there was no reason to keep them from sleeping together.
I think people started to change channels because of the fact that David and Maddie stopped being together and even though we had some great episodes with some great cases ,without Bruce and Cybill together that extra special magic just wasn`t there.
At the end of the day i don`t think it would have mattered if they had slept together or not , it`s the events that happened afterwards that did!.:)

Your thoughts please:wave:

I completely agree with you, Laura. I get so frustrated by the myth that the show went down hill because they slept together. The fans were patient with all the reruns as early as Season 3, but having them apart and some questionable plots twists in Season 4 is what did it. Also, Curtis Armstrong joined the show in Season 3, not Season 4.

Just wanted to add an AMEN to that to Laura! I believe true Moonlighting fans don't believe that the show "Jumped The Shark". It was definately the writers fault on the stupid storylines they came up with to keep them apart after they slept together that drove fans away. Other than that Season 4 is a pretty good season. Yes not enough Maddie and David together but still a good season. Way better than most of Season 5. JMHO!

What kind of show would it have been if they never had slept together?! I don't even want to think about that! They ABSOLUTELY did not JTS doing it, imo.

What kind of show would it have been if they never had slept together?! I don't even want to think about that! They ABSOLUTELY did not JTS doing it, imo.
Totally agree with you. They HAD to get together

I think people started to change channels because of the fact that David and Maddie stopped being together and even though we had some great episodes with some great cases ,without Bruce and Cybill together that extra special magic just wasn`t there.
At the end of the day i don`t think it would have mattered if they had slept together or not , it`s the events that happened afterwards that did!.:)


I perfectly agree with you Laura, I notice that watching now 4th season. I don't know why they don't understand it! I think ML could go still on if writers don't had lead up it to so disappointed ending.
:wave:

I agree that the show didn't jump the shark because Maddie and David slept together. In fact, the episode after they first slept together (To Heiress Human) was funny, warm and one of the best episodes they ever did. It also didn't JTS because Cybill was pregnant with twins or because Bruce was doing Die Hard or he injured himself. Even though these things caused stress for the show and to the actors and crew themselves.

It went downhill in early Season 4 because the writers started to write storylines and scenes for Maddie and David that weren't true to the characters and weren't true emotionally. (Glenn has admitted how badly he wrote the season 4 opener and that he made mistakes) Bruce and Cybill were having to act against type constantly in early Season 4 and most of Season 5. Cybill has always complained how the writers turned Maddie into a bitch. She's right, the character in Season 4 was awful compared to the complex, stroppy, but ultimately good person Maddie was in Seasons 1-3.

Seasons 1-3 saw Maddie break down many of her initial opinions about David and saw her grow as a person, and yet in early Season 4, she seems to have forgotten everything she'd learnt. We do see her becoming softer and nicer at the end of Season 4, but any hope us fans might have had, was squished in Season 5 with the Annie storyline and David being turned into a completely cold and awful pig. I wont mention Lunar Eclipse.... :mad:

Let's not forget that Season 3 was personally and professionally stressful for the whole Moonlighting Team, however the writing and production and acting was so good, it didn't matter on screen.

I know I'm preaching to the converted here, but I just had to rant for a while!!

Mul
x

Maybe the show "jumped the shark" because Cybill didn't "jump the shark", i.e. Glenn Caron.

This idea was talked about on a recent thread on this site. I think it is something many of us have thought about over the years but have been afraid to bring up.

The direction her character took, and the very open and bitter feelings of Mr. Caron, are really starting to gel together.

Didn't you love it when Glenn kept apologizing to Bruce on A Trip To The Moon commentary? How about Glenn apologizes to Cybill for making Maddie into such a witch! When the show started, Maddie was a very likeable and very vulnerable woman. She became the show-bitch as David became the most loveable, likeable, do nothing wrong kind of guy. Everything bad on the show, and off the show, was blamed on Maddie and or Cybill.

I think you might have a point here Kis....

On a related note, it makes me think - when they did that meet up for the Season 3 DVDs, I do wonder whether most of the awkwardness we noticed in that docu was between Glenn and Cybill and not Bruce and Cyb as people might assume. After all, Bruce and Cybill did hug affectionately like old comrades or old college friends who have fallen out of touch - and were very funny together when doing the commentary. I wish that Bruce and Cybill had done the commentary and interview on their own.....

Mul

Maybe the show "jumped the shark" because Cybill didn't "jump the shark", i.e. Glenn Caron.I think you may have hit the nail on the head with this.but i have a feeling that this is going to be a `sticky ` thread for some
And i remember discussing this and giving my view on this on the thread that Kis mentions

Sorry but i`m going to have to come back and talk later , hubbys just come in and i need to start dinner .

But i`ll be back , i have plenty to say on this.:talk:

Ps i liked the way Mulberry said that Bruce and Cybill hugged like old comrades or old collage friends, for a minute there i thought you were going to say PALS!:D

No not pals, no :crazy:

Hi , i said i`d get back on this one.
i understand where Kismet is coming from with this theory, Wer`e looking for a reason for why Glenn turned on Cybill like he did.Just to add to what kis is saying
There was that little comment that Glenn made when Bruce was talking about whether David loved Maddie or was just about the sex,which was something about everyone wanting the one person that they can`t have in life and people wanting the ying to their yang.
It may have mean`t nothing or it may have mean`t everything!

Like i said on the other thread i think that Glenn was incredible in ore of what Bruce and Cybill had maybe wished he could have been in Bruces shoes
so i think Glenn lived out his fantasies through David and Maddie which mean`t he was always in control of what happened in their relationship at least on-screen.
So maybe as he saw Bruce and Cybills off-screen relationship start to blossom he tried to keep him self in the loop and ( bare in mind in a lot of articles when ever Glenn was asked or talked about Bruce and Cybills great chemistry he always put himself in the picture too and to me he looked at it as some kind of three-some( no pun intended ).So maybe by chumming up with Bruce and focusing on Davids character and changing Maddie nearly beyond recognition was his way of saying " i don`t care how close you two get this is my show and i still have total control over the characters and therefore the actors who portray them.

Now don`t get me wrong Glenn was and is a great writer and even today is churning out great shows like Medium which i never miss but i do wonder if Glenn let his personal feelings cloud his judgement on a lot of the issues we have discussed on here.

Anyone else like to put their pennysworth in?

No not pals, no :crazy:

Oooh no, never 'pals'! :p :lol:

I totally agree with you laura a. I have said this on some of my previous posts. There was definitely a personal agenda with Glen. Cybill was "the girl who was out of reach", yet he could have power over her by demonizing her character Maddie. I think he lived vicariously through Bruce/David and when he saw any connection or pairing of B & C on screen or off, he sabatoged it. What I can't believe is how vindictive and nasty he is still to this day. It really makes me cringe whenever I watch/hear the commentaries. He takes shots of Cybill at any chance he can get. On the most recent commentary with Bruce, he TOTALLY ignores Cybill's performance in the Honeymooners sequence, while mentioning EVERYONE. Come on Glen. And what was all of the apologizing about David loving Maddie????? I think those scenes were so sweet and sincere, showing David's growth. The two of them (Bruce & Glen) were so horrified with David admitting that he loved Maddie....I don't get it. I was also sick of hearing Glen say over and over again how he did not remember writing any of that episode. Instead of just admitting how or why he did not remain true to the characters and their situation and going forward and being able to make the storyline work, he's hiding behind excuses of memory lapses, Cybill's pregnancy, the "it was over when they had sex" line, etc...... He dropped the ball because of some stupid personal agenda, was punishing Cybill, and that is why the show suffered...period. The blame lands squarely on his shoulders. I had always thought that Cybill got the raw end of the deal whenever the show's demise was blamed on her, but now even more so. If it makes ME so sick to hear Glen babble on and on about it now, could you imagine what it must have been like for her to work in that environment back then???? I am amazed she lasted as long as she did!

Sorry........I'm ranting. Anyone else?

Alright, I can go! But I will rant as well, okey?
I think you're all right about this. It was very much obvious during the commentary (the honeymooners in particular), Glenn didn't have many nice things to say at all. He thinks the show went downhill because D&M slept together. (and RIGHT, they had to get pregnant too, since Cybill was pregnant irl) He also admitted that he had wanted to end the show after season 3 "wouldn't it be great if they let us stop now? No, we have to keep going until it sucks." I don't think someone who wants a show to end should continue working on/with it! Definitely not let him come up with the storyline when he just wants it to suck as soon as possible so he can leave. It wasn't like he was the one and only writer who could write these characters and still let them be true to themselves. I would like to know what kind of relationship he had/or has? with Bruce. I think it was funny that Bruce told him to go and see some season 5 episodes and that they were much more fun than the one they were commenting on, which Glenn wrote! I also love that David told Maddie he loved her! That part G apologizes for, and the other stuff he just can't remember writing. How convienient not to recall so he doesn't have to explain why he choose to go the way he did. On Cybill's commentary, she talked a lot about the problems they had, but both she and Roger were SO positive about everything. Allyce&Curtis also complained a bit, but they were totally hilarious so we know they don't mean anything by it. They would never blame anyone for anything.

Here's the mandatory "I still love Glenn for creating Moonlighting".

I don't have anything else to add but i pretty much agree with all that has been said

Like i said on the other thread i think that Glenn was incredible in ore of what Bruce and Cybill had maybe wished he could have been in Bruces shoes
so i think Glenn lived out his fantasies through David and Maddie which mean`t he was always in control of what happened in their relationship at least on-screen.
So maybe as he saw Bruce and Cybills off-screen relationship start to blossom he tried to keep him self in the loop and ( bare in mind in a lot of articles when ever Glenn was asked or talked about Bruce and Cybills great chemistry he always put himself in the picture too and to me he looked at it as some kind of three-some( no pun intended ).So maybe by chumming up with Bruce and focusing on Davids character and changing Maddie nearly beyond recognition was his way of saying " i don`t care how close you two get this is my show and i still have total control over the characters and therefore the actors who portray them.


I totally agree with you laura a. I have said this on some of my previous posts. There was definitely a personal agenda with Glen. Cybill was "the girl who was out of reach", yet he could have power over her by demonizing her character Maddie. I think he lived vicariously through Bruce/David and when he saw any connection or pairing of B & C on screen or off, he sabatoged it.


Are you serious? I don't want to be rude... but... the above comments are ridiculous.

Laura...

Glenn wanted to be in Bruce's shoes???

Was jealous of B and C's off-screen relationship???

Chummed it up with B and changed Maddie because B and C were close and to say "I don`t care how close you two get this is my show and I still have total control over the characters and therefore the actors who portray them"???

You've got to be kidding.

ovrthmn...

C was the girl out of reach and so Glen could have power over her by "demonizing" a TV character she played???

Glenn lived vicariously through B and so because of some "connection" between B and C, Glenn "sabatoged" the show???

Sorry but this stuff is so incredibly ridiculous I don't even know what to say.

Before you dismiss Laura's comments completely Colin, even Glenn has admitted in interviews that he based the character of David Addison on the kind of person he admired and perhaps wanted to be. Whether or not you agree with peoples comments on the personal side of all this, I think its quite obvious that the character of Maddie Hayes was changed in Season 4, and Glenn himself made several comments on the commentary about how the writing wasn't as good in Season 4. We've all noticed that no matter what the reason was, Glenn made some mad and horrid decisions about storyline and characterisation. You only have to watch an early Season 3 episode and compare it to Trip to the Moon. :eek:

I also loved the bits in the commentary where Bruce told Glenn about how good some of the early Season 5 episodes were, and how much fun they were!! Priceless... Some of the early Season 5 episodes were far more lighthearted and funny (that's before the writers started mucking it all up again of course!)

Mul

Whatever we think doesn't really matter anyway I suppose, we can never know what Glenn was really thinking at the time. However it does help the disappointment of the end to try and work out why it got so bad

Before you dismiss Laura's comments completely Colin, even Glenn has admitted in interviews that he based the character of David Addison on the kind of person he admired and perhaps wanted to be.


I have no doubt that Glen admired David in many ways. Most people did. However, to then say Glenn actually wanted to be in B's shoes and "tried to keep him self in the loop" because of some blossoming off-screen relationship of B and C's, AND THEN chummed it up with B and changed Maddie's character as a way of saying " I don`t care how close you two get this is my show and I still have total control over the characters and therefore the actors who portray them"... is RIDICULOUS.

Even more preposterous are ovrthmn's comments that C was the girl out of reach and so Glen could have power over her by "demonizing" her character and that Glenn lived vicariously through B and so because of some "connection" between B and C, he "sabatoged" the show.

So yeah, Mul. I believe these ideas of what happened can be dismissed.


Whether or not you agree with peoples comments on the personal side of all this, I think its quite obvious that the character of Maddie Hayes was changed in Season 4, and Glenn himself made several comments on the commentary about how the writing wasn't as good in Season 4. We've all noticed that no matter what the reason was, Glenn made some mad and horrid decisions about storyline and characterisation. You only have to watch an early Season 3 episode and compare it to Trip to the Moon. :eek:


We all can agree that Maddie changed in season 4. I don't know the reason but it was probably a combination of horrible writing choices and a power struggle between Glenn and C. Glenn didn't run an efficient show to say the least and C seemed to have had a bit of a diva attitude (quite a shock for an actor in Hollywood).

As I tried to say again and again in this thread:
http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?t=164568

Some of the big questions of what went wrong, especially concerning Lunar Eclipse, have gone unanswered and seemingly UNASKED.

I think Laura was right on target. Sometimes the whole thing has a nasty locker-room tint to it.

Caron has talked about writing the character with Shepherd specifically in mind. He has also admitted that at least some of his plot ideas in the fourth season were bad.

Laura's not the only one to ever wonder that the story resembles that of an average guy who couldn't get the pretty girl, or couldn't keep her if he did, so he tears her down. If he can't have her, no one will.

"Some of the big questions of what went wrong, especially concerning Lunar Eclipse, have gone unanswered and seemingly UNASKED."

You keep repeating this phrase in post after post.

You have already asked those questions, and so have many others! You don't get the answers you want, you keep harping on it...

And people think the rest of us can't let it go.

I think Laura was right on target. Sometimes the whole thing has a nasty locker-room tint to it.

Caron has talked about writing the character with Shepherd specifically in mind. He has also admitted that at least some of his plot ideas in the fourth season were bad.

Laura's not the only one to ever wonder that the story resembles that of an average guy who couldn't get the pretty girl, or couldn't keep her if he did, so he tears her down. If he can't have her, no one will.

Yeah, Glenn had C in mind for the role. Yeah, Glenn admits some plot ideas in the 4th season were bad. But how does that led to these ridiculous comments I quoted previously?




"Some of the big questions of what went wrong, especially concerning Lunar Eclipse, have gone unanswered and seemingly UNASKED."

You keep repeating this phrase in post after post.

I think you'll find that this thread:
http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?t=164568

.. is where I keep asking that basic question in talking with Diana. I've brought the question up in maybe one or two other threads where it applies. If you read the thread I linked above, you'll see that for some reason Diana doesn't seem to understand my point. After going back and forth, the bottom line is that it seems no one has ever asked why they made depressing, unsatisfying choices in Lunar Eclipse. No one has asked for an explaination of the thought process that went into those decisions. It's mystifying as to why fans who have had access to those invloved with ML have not asked questions that haunt most of us.


You have already asked those questions, and so have many others! You don't get the answers you want, you keep harping on it...

And people think the rest of us can't let it go.

Yes, I've asked those questions and so have MANY others... BUT fans who have access to Glenn, Jay Daniels, etc HAVE NOT ASKED and NOT GOTTEN ANSWERS. And that is very disappointing and mystifying.

Sorry if you feel I'm "harping" on it but it's been 17 years since ML ended (horribly) and many fans want to know what happened (especially the choices in Lunar Eclipse).

ML has gotten a lot of attention with the issuing of the DVDs and the internet has given fans a chance to connect but if we don't get some answers soon we never will.

Moonlighting21 (and others) have done many great interviews but have somehow failed in helping fans find answers to the big questions.

I guess if you think something is ridiculous, then by god, ridiculous it is, and that's Colin's Law.

Jumpin' Jehosaphat on a matching set of pogo sticks.

And stop typing in bold and ALL CAPS. Didn't anyone teach you about Internet etiquette?

Colin, you are getting much too stern to be around. The word "bitter" comes to mind.

Yes, we all hated "Lunar Eclipse" and we all have bucketloads of questions concerning that and many other issues. That's why this board's here. (And yes, you did repeat yourself on different threads. I did read them, when they were first posted-- why do you think I know what I know? Don't patronize me.)

But if you're going to be rude and dogmatic, not to mention churlish to Laura for no good reason, then you are going to be really hard to talk to.

I sometimes wish that every message board came with what they call an "ignore button," a feature in some mb's and chat rooms which allows you to click someone's user i.d. and not have to see their posts anymore. Then you can still talk to everyone else on the board.

If people lose their patience with you, you have no one but yourself to blame.

Thanks for sticky up for me neon000 and Mulberry , i had know idea that Colin72 was going to get so uptight over what i said.
Yes i know we had no proof or inside knowledge of what went on behind the scenes or inside Glenns mind.
But you have to admit Colin72 that ( to coin a quote from the big D himself)
there`s a bad odour about the saga.
And even you must wonder why Glenn hardly if ever praises Cybill in any of the commentaries , i think he has one comment that i remember from the Atomic .... commentaries and that was how beautiful she always looked .
But what about her amazing acting abilities too Glenn!

No problem

I guess if you think something is ridiculous, then by god, ridiculous it is, and that's Colin's Law.

Yes, the comments I noted previously were absurd. But now you're starting an argument over other issues?



And stop typing in bold and ALL CAPS. Didn't anyone teach you about Internet etiquette?

As far as I know there is NOTHING wrong with emphasizing words and phrases in a post with the bold and italic features available on the forum. IT'S NOT AS THOUGH I'M TYPING IN ALL CAPS ALL THE TIME WITH EVERY WORD I SAY. I AM AWARE THAT IS ANNOYING AND CONSIDERED SHOUTING. In fact, as a web designer and someone who has studied web usability (see Jakob Nielsen's books for example), you are supposed to use bold at times to increase readibility.



Colin, you are getting much too stern to be around. The word "bitter" comes to mind.

Don't read my posts. It's really simple. You can tell which posts are mine. They say "Colin72". Avoid them if you'd like. No one is forcing you to read and respond.


Yes, we all hated "Lunar Eclipse" and we all have bucketloads of questions concerning that and many other issues. That's why this board's here. (And yes, you did repeat yourself on different threads. I did read them, when they were first posted-- why do you think I know what I know? Don't patronize me.)

Patronize you? What are you talking about?


But if you're going to be rude and dogmatic, not to mention churlish to Laura for no good reason, then you are going to be really hard to talk to.

So if I believe something is ridiculous, am I allowed to say it? You've started arguing with me and telling me how to behave because I called some comments ridiculous? Believe me, I found the comments I quoted previously more ridiculous than I expressed. I was being polite by simply calling them ridiculous.


I sometimes wish that every message board came with what they call an "ignore button," a feature in some mb's and chat rooms which allows you to click someone's user i.d. and not have to see their posts anymore. Then you can still talk to everyone else on the board.

Yeah, I get it. You don't like what I'm saying. Ignore me. Please.



If people lose their patience with you, you have no one but yourself to blame.

Thank you for the advice.

Thanks for sticky up for me neon000 and Mulberry , i had know idea that Colin72 was going to get so uptight over what i said.
Yes i know we had no proof or inside knowledge of what went on behind the scenes or inside Glenns mind.
But you have to admit Colin72 that ( to coin a quote from the big D himself)
there`s a bad odour about the saga.
And even you must wonder why Glenn hardly if ever praises Cybill in any of the commentaries , i think he has one comment that i remember from the Atomic .... commentaries and that was how beautiful she always looked .
But what about her amazing acting abilities too Glenn!

Neon isn't defending what you said as much as she's just attacking me for my posts.

What you and ovrthmn said was so unbelieveably out of the blue and based on nothing. I'm attacked for saying the comments are ridiculous but somehow ovrthmn saying Glenn "demonized" and sabotaged" Maddie and the show is fine. How is that not ridiculous?

Obviously there were many problems on the set and problems with Glenn and Cybill. But taking that and stretching it into something where Glenn was jealous of B and C's "off-screen" relationship (?) and used the characters to control and demonize the actors to sabotage the show is crazy. Sorry if that's harsh but if you both are using such harsh and extreme language and jumping to bizarre conclusions - based on no proof or inside knowledge as you yourself say - they why I'm I so out of line for calling it ridiculous?

(I edited my post above because I mistakenly referred to MulberryGal in places I should have been referring to ovrthmn.)

I am not starting anything. I am responding to your crass and obnoxious behavior.

You are losing your temper for no reason. You have been mean-spirited and low-class since you started this jag, and you refuse to accept that, God forbid, people try to disagree with you.

Add to that, you're fascinated with yourself.

Other people are allowed to have their opinions and that doesn't make their opinions "absurd" and "ridiculous" as if your judgement is carved in stone! You are not a dictator!

What a pompous jerk.

Can someone subtract this clown from the forum? I thought abusive and harassing posts were considered trolling or flamebait, and on any decent forum, that's supposed to get you banned.

Colin, it's time to pull over and change the stick that's up your... oh, never mind.

There. Now I'm as silly as you.

Neon isn't defending what you and Mul said as much as she's just attacking me for my posts.

You know this how? How could you possibly know what was in my mind?

:lol: Don't flatter yourself.

What you and Mul said was so unbelieveably out of the blue and based on nothing. I'm attacked for saying the comments are ridiculous but somehow Mul saying Glenn "demonized" and sabotaged" Maddie and the show is fine. How is that not ridiculous?

Yes, Colin is the dictator of quality. Someone else's comments "are" ridiculous, just as 16 ounces "is" a pound. Colin's view is The Truth. :rolleyes:

Like I said, you're getting tough to be around.

...Mul saying Glenn "demonized" and sabotaged" Maddie and the show is fine. How is that not ridiculous?

When on earth did I use those words?! I said nothing of the sort! I said that Glenn admitted the writing went downhill, and that Glenn made some mad and horrid decisions about storyline and characterisation. I agreed with the others that the character of Maddie changed drastically and that the writers didn't write scenes that were true to the original character. I also accept that Laura and Neon (and everyone else!) have their own theories as to why this happened, whether or not (as Tamm said) we can ever really know the truth.

Good grief, how do these boards go from being very calm and polite to being rude and stroppy? :(

Mul

As i said early all of what we say on here is just our own thoughts on the subject and not once have i claimed them to be true ( i have no proof) and when i said relationship between Bruce and Cybill i didn`t necessarly mean an intimate one .
Glenn even said on the dvds that he had had enough by season 3 and that he may have put an end to the show then.
Maybe Glenn SHOULD have left at this point if he had lost interest.
But something was definitely going on behind the scenes with him and Cybill because Cybill said herself that he dragged her into his office one day and tore shreads out of her, it wasn`t as if Bruce never turned up late or upset a schedule for what ever reason but Glenn never came down on Bruce though.
And another thing Bruce was always suggesting to Glenn about changing lines etc and he was always listenend to but when ever Cybill did the same she was reminded by Glenn that she was just an actress and what did she know. It seems to me Glenn just wanted her to do her lines and look `pretty` for the camera.
Now what`s fair about that.

I completely agree, Laura. It seems there was a real double standard going on. Bruce and Glenn have commented many times that Bruce would call Glenn about stuff on the set. Also, Jay Daniel said in his commentary for BMOMS that "Mr. Willis" was late that day they filmed the opening scene, and "Mr. Daniel" didn't seem happy about it. But I wonder if Mr. Willis got chewed out about it??? :D

When on earth did I use those words?! I said nothing of the sort! I said that Glenn admitted the writing went downhill, and that Glenn made some mad and horrid decisions about storyline and characterisation. I agreed with the others that the character of Maddie changed drastically and that the writers didn't write scenes that were true to the original character. I also accept that Laura and Neon (and everyone else!) have their own theories as to why this happened, whether or not (as Tamm said) we can ever really know the truth.

Good grief, how do these boards go from being very calm and polite to being rude and stroppy? :(

Mul

My apologies. I meant to attribute the quote to "ovrthmn" not you. I've changed the post and corrected my mistake. Sorry about that.

My comments were not meant to offend anyone. What I said was my OPINION which I am entitled to have and which I don't find ridiculous in the least. It is a theory, a supposition, not based on any first hand knowledge, but based on what I have read and heard. I find it ridiculous that you find my OPINION ridiculous, Colin. I don't think many people on this board would argue the fact that Maddie's character became completely inconsistant and often unlikeable after season three ended. The people to blame for that would be the show's writers and the creator.

As a new member to this board, am I out of line here people?

I think it's very understandable that when we hear the involved talk about their experiences working on ML, we try to put two and two together to try to make sense of what happened.

My comments were not meant to offend anyone. What I said was my OPINION which I am entitled to have and which I don't find ridiculous in the least. It is a theory, a supposition, not based on any first hand knowledge, but based on what I have read and heard. I find it ridiculous that you find my OPINION ridiculous, Colin. I don't think many people on this board would argue the fact that Maddie's character became completely inconsistant and often unlikeable after season three ended. The people to blame for that would be the show's writers and the creator.

As a new member to this board, am I out of line here people?


Obviously you are entitled to your opinion but that doesn't mean your opinion isn't ridiculous.

No one is arguing that Maddie's character was inconsistant after after 3. You previously said...

"I totally agree with you laura a. I have said this on some of my previous posts. There was definitely a personal agenda with Glen. Cybill was "the girl who was out of reach", yet he could have power over her by demonizing her character Maddie. I think he lived vicariously through Bruce/David and when he saw any connection or pairing of B & C on screen or off, he sabatoged it."


So Glen had a personal agenda with Cybill and because she was the girl out of reach he decided to exert power over her by demonizing M? RIDICULOUS.

Glen lived vicariously through Bruce/David and saw some kind of pairing/connection between Bruce and Cybill on/off screen and so Glenn decided to sabotage Moonlighting? RIDICULOUS.

Haven't been here in awhile. This place is almost as much fun as the politics board!! LOL!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Anyway, I do agree with with laura a, neon and ovrthmn are saying. Maddie's character went way downhill in the 4th season. Something definitely happened and her character seemed to loose some of the zest and fun that made her fun to watch.

The Maddie that we knew is Season's 1-3 would never have run away from her problems. She would have stayed to face them head on! Maddie was never one to run from a fight. She seemed to have thrived on them! LOL!! Even my husband could tell there was something different about her and he isn't a huge ML fan. He only watched it when I bought the DVD's and had my ML marathon's on the weekend. We were watching Season 4 and he looked at me and said "Something different about her." I smiled and said "I have known that for years."

Oh and Colin, just because you don't agree with someone doesn't mean that you are right also. Everyone has a right to their opinion. Why should you be allowed to call someone's opinion RIDICULOUS just because you don't agree with it? So if I want to call your opinion Ridiculous then I guess it is okay, because it is just my opinion of your opinion......

Oh and Colin, just because you don't agree with someone doesn't mean that you are right also. Everyone has a right to their opinion. Why should you be allowed to call someone's opinion RIDICULOUS just because you don't agree with it? So if I want to call your opinion Ridiculous then I guess it is okay, because it is just my opinion of your opinion......

GOOD SAID Michelle! :clap:

you're rigth! :yeahthat


:wave:

GOOD SAID Michelle! :clap:

you're rigth! :yeahthat


:wave:

Good stuff. I agree wholeheartedly.

The truth is whenever I see a certain screen name, I just know there will be big controversey. I actually try to avoid reading his (her?) comments.
No matter what any of us write, we seem to be wrong in his eyes.

Haven't been here in awhile. This place is almost as much fun as the politics board!! LOL!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Anyway, I do agree with with laura a, neon and ovrthmn are saying. Maddie's character went way downhill in the 4th season. Something definitely happened and her character seemed to loose some of the zest and fun that made her fun to watch.

The Maddie that we knew is Season's 1-3 would never have run away from her problems. She would have stayed to face them head on! Maddie was never one to run from a fight. She seemed to have thrived on them! LOL!! Even my husband could tell there was something different about her and he isn't a huge ML fan. He only watched it when I bought the DVD's and had my ML marathon's on the weekend. We were watching Season 4 and he looked at me and said "Something different about her." I smiled and said "I have known that for years."


I agree with EVERYTHING you said above about Maddie changing and acting out of character. I AM NOT DEBATING THAT.



Do you even know which comments I said were ridiculous? It doesn't seem as though you do. I keep saying one thing and people seem to ignore it and want to make it seem as though I'm arguing that Maddie didn't change or didn't act differently. THAT IS NOT MY POINT.

Let me point out to you once again, the comments I called ridiculous...


laura a said:

"Like i said on the other thread i think that Glenn was incredible in ore of what Bruce and Cybill had maybe wished he could have been in Bruces shoes
so i think Glenn lived out his fantasies through David and Maddie which mean`t he was always in control of what happened in their relationship at least on-screen. So maybe as he saw Bruce and Cybills off-screen relationship start to blossom he tried to keep him self in the loop and ( bare in mind in a lot of articles when ever Glenn was asked or talked about Bruce and Cybills great chemistry he always put himself in the picture too and to me he looked at it as some kind of three-some( no pun intended ).So maybe by chumming up with Bruce and focusing on Davids character and changing Maddie nearly beyond recognition was his way of saying " i don`t care how close you two get this is my show and i still have total control over the characters and therefore the actors who portray them."


So Laura says that Glenn wanted to be in Bruce's shoes, was jealous of B and C's off-screen relationship and so he chummed it up with B and changed Maddie because B and C were close and to say "I don`t care how close you two get this is my show and I still have total control over the characters and therefore the actors who portray them".

Are you trying to tell me you agree with that?

Glenn was so jealous of B and C's off-screen relationship (WHAT OFF-SCREEN RELATIONSHIP?) that he deliberately chummed it up with Bruce, focused on his character and changed Maddie as his way of saying I don't care how close you two get this is my show and I'm in total control over the characters? THAT IS LAUGHABLE.

Yes, Maddie changed. Yes, incredibly poor mistakes were made with the character. Yes, Glenn and Cybill started to not get along but Laura's bizarre fantasy as to why all that happened is ridiculous.




ovrthmn said:

"I totally agree with you laura a. I have said this on some of my previous posts. There was definitely a personal agenda with Glen. Cybill was "the girl who was out of reach", yet he could have power over her by demonizing her character Maddie. I think he lived vicariously through Bruce/David and when he saw any connection or pairing of B & C on screen or off, he sabatoged it."


So ovrthmn believes Glenn had a problem with Cybill because she was a girl out of his league. Glenn had such a huge problem to the extent that he decided to exert power over Cybill by demonizing a TV character she played. And you agree with that huh? Oh and Glenn also lived vicariously through Bruce (you know, because Glenn secretly wanted to be with Cybill Shepherd). So when Glenn saw Bruce and Cybill's chemistry on-screen and off-screen (ovrthmn, like Laura, imagines B and C had some kind of off-screen relationship?), Glenn was so jealous he deliberately "SABOTAGED" Maddie and Moonlighting. And you agree with that huh?


Those are the comments I called ridiculous. I never said Maddie didn't change, I never said Glenn and others involved didn't mess up handling Cybill's character. What is ridiculous are the bizarre, BASELESS, fantasies Laura and ovrthmn have concocted as to why Maddie changed. Are they entitled to believe what they want? Yep. I never said they weren't "allowed" to believe what they wanted. I said what they believed was ridiculous. There's no shred of evidence, no proof whatsoever to back up the fantasies they have. I think if Bruce, Cybill, Glenn or anyone involved with ML heard Laura and ovrthmn's "theories" they would laugh. HARD.



Oh and Colin, just because you don't agree with someone doesn't mean that you are right also. Everyone has a right to their opinion. Why should you be allowed to call someone's opinion RIDICULOUS just because you don't agree with it? So if I want to call your opinion Ridiculous then I guess it is okay, because it is just my opinion of your opinion......


Obviously, everyone has a right to believe whatever they want. No one is arguing that. But what kind of world do you live in where no opinions are ever ridiculous? That is what you're saying right? By your "logic" above, everyone is right no matter what they believe. No one is ever wrong. No one ever believes anything that can be termed ridiculous.

So what if I said I think what happened with Moonlighting was that Cybill secretly lusted for Glenn Caron. She knew he thought she was attractive and used that forbidden lust and passion in her scenes with Bruce. Cybill pretended David was Glenn and she was Maddie. But Cybill wasn't getting the attention from Glenn that she wanted so she made trouble on the set. She was disagreeable, argued, threw chairs and often stormed off the set. She decided that if she couldn't have Glenn, then she would not let Glenn control Maddie and so Cybill sabotaged Moonlighting.

So by your thinking, that would be fine? You wouldn't think that was ridiculous? You wouldn't think I was pulling that out of my a$$? Well, it's just as ridiculous as Laura and ovrthmn's theories.

I sometimes wish that every message board came with what they call an "ignore button,"

Heck of an idea! In lieu of a button, can't we all just DO IT! I'm not one to shy away from a controversial discussion, but--YAWN--isn't this one over yet?!?:sleep2:

At the risk of furthering this topic when I'd rather not bother, I agree with ya adyjdy! :wave:

Mul

If you go to someone's profile, you can click to add that person to your 'ignore list'. Then you will see when that person has posted something, but not what he/she is writing.

Heck of an idea! In lieu of a button, can't we all just DO IT! I'm not one to shy away from a controversial discussion, but--YAWN--isn't this one over yet?!?:sleep2:

In 1984, I had mumps, and I fell off a horse.

This is almost just as much fun.

Hi all

I actually took the time to read this thread and must say the comments made about Glenn Caron's motivations are a tad out there (sorry gals).

Colin, the problem is the words you chose and that this is a fan forum where people have some kind of a bond. These women (they mostly seem to be women) don't like someone else coming in here and saying that something is ridiculous. As you're seeing, people will gang up on you and become very defensive. :boxing: And besides, us gals tend to get a tad emotional about Moonlighting!

I do not believe many here agree with Laura and Overthmn's specific comments. While most fans who followed Moonlighting know of trouble on the set, a rift between those involved and a change in Maddie from seasons 1-3 to 4, it is silly to think Glenn had a thing for Cybill and went about destroying Maddie Hayes, demonizing her and sabotaging a character Cybill Shepherd played to get revenge. So in essence, you are right, that is a silly remark.

However, you came across as attacking the posters so everyone here is going to come to their rescue as it where. As you see, they've avoided a rational discussion of the comments and most won't specifically say they agree with the comments you pointed out. That's why they keep attacking you instead of considering what you are actually saying. Next time, choose your words more carefully!!! If instead of calling the comments ridiculous, you would have said you disagreed and said there was no evidence, etc, you would have made more headway :)

Oh, and please don't flame me for trying to bring some peace to the subject !!! :wave:


best
Holland

Nothing substantive to say, but, neon LOL!

I wouldn`t exactly call them fantasies!. But let me just add one more thing before i shut my mouth over this whole topic,it`s been said in a number of sources that Cybill did or considered sueing Glenn for sexual harrasment at one point , i think it may have been just before he left the show.

Actually, Holland, if you read the entire thread, it seems quite a few people did agree with Laura and Overthmn. The chief problem with Colin, anyway, wasn't so much his disagreement as his rudeness and stubbornness. I can handle debate anytime. I cannot stand stroppy, mean people who love to throw roadblocks into a good conversation.

Colin seems to be absolutely astonished that people would dare to disagree with him. Now, what kind of adult takes that attitude?

If Colin keeps insisting that he's right and how on Earth could anybody say different, I think it safe to say he is going to harsh the mood for more than a few people.

If you downplay the original comments on the subject, and say you agree with Colin but you just didn't like his choice of words... are you really saying very much? Certainly doesn't sound like that much of a disagreement.

There is a difference between flaming and saying what you think.

Remember when this thread was about Season 4 of 'Moonlighting'? God, those were the days...

:crazy:

offtopic:

For the record, I think laura and overthmn have a fine and reasonable theory about the Caron/Cybill relationship. I'm not sure I would agree that the demonizing is 100-percent attributable to Caron's attraction to Cybill. However, I think it's a reasonable idea to throw into the mix of why Maddie was demonized.

And P.S...

These women (they mostly seem to be women) don't like someone else coming in here and saying that something is ridiculous. As you're seeing, people will gang up on you and become very defensive. :boxing: And besides, us gals tend to get a tad emotional about Moonlighting!

Holland, I find your comments about "us gals" a little demeaning, and frankly playing right into colin's hands. I don't know a lot of men who like their opinion called "ridiculous" either. Mean spirited, overly-confrontational comments SHOULD be called out. I don't think the gender or the emotional state of those calling it out is really relevant.

Adyjdy: Well said. :wave:

There are episodes in Season 4 which are truncated. In the episode Cool Hand Dave, Agnes and Herbert open the show. In part 2 of the show, the show features recaps of the previous episode. That is why both shows are only 44 minutes each. In later episodes before Maddie's return, there is a hospital scene with a patient who was on life support and then code blues when she is not on the episode...it could be the fetal attraction episode.

I was just surfing the Deep Discount DVD website, and noticed the Moonlighting season 4 is their number 7 best seller!

In that case, we should be expecting season 5 info real soon......maybe even a total series set??

I was just surfing the Deep Discount DVD website, and noticed the Moonlighting season 4 is their number 7 best seller!

In that case, we should be expecting season 5 info real soon......maybe even a total series set??


I don't know why but if you thinks so, I wonder you know more than us! ;)
Maybe I'm wrong but I like to think that :D

I hope we soon get season 5 but with all the extras and the other stuff that we love! :crazy:


:wave:

I haven't watched the commentaries yet but if I just look at what is on the screen I do see Maddie's character even in To Heiress Human becoming irrational and cold towards David when it's been the underlying theme that they had come to love each other very much even though they were different in many ways. Therefore, I just don't understand how:

:soapbox:

you can have the lush, romantic and final implication of the theme song;

David following Maddie to South America and Maddie following David to New York to support and / or protect the other;

and all those other subtle and not-so-subtle tender / passionate moments and words they've exchanged over the course of three seasons - too numerous to list

plus, Maddie deciding to pass on Sam's offer of marriage because she loves David too;

~~ and then have Maddie say to David that:

she didn't want to work it out;

she wanted to forget their night together and make him pretend it didn't happen too, using his confession of love for her against him (Shouldn't her heart have been all a-flutter about David telling her that he loved her?? These two getting together is the point of this show, not the cases! In my humble opinion, that is. :confused: )

he's not the one she's supposed to be with but she of course is exactly what he wants (How mean is that, folks? A man you love and who says he loves you - what should you do with him? Rip the guy's heart out and stomp on it of course.)

"If this is love it's too much work." (So a committed relationship is not worth the same hard work as running a business? Really? Well, if that's the dismal truth, why bother inhaling oxygen anymore?)

Then she runs away, leaving him, her business and her staff in the lurch to sulk at mom and dad’s house for four and a half months and be so completely unhinged over her relationship with David (yes, it is a relationship, Maddie!) that she refuses to even give her poor dad a hint as to why she’s burrowing in his house like a terminally ill groundhog who can’t stand sunlight.

What?! Come on, why would even a non-writer write Maddie Hayes this way if he or she didn’t want the character to be unlikable? They wouldn’t. And why would anyone make the female lead and the ‘likable hero’s woman’ in a romantic dramedy unlikable unless (1) there’s going to be a new female lead or no female lead (Can anyone name one show in which this worked?) or (2) someone doesn’t like the actress playing the role – for whatever reason - to the point where he, she or they are willing to ruin what most fans (the ones responsible for the high ratings) like about the show?

Human nature being what it is, no human behavior is beyond belief to me. Some famous and talented people are just as mean or wacky as anyone else might be. So while there is no absolute proof (that I know of anyway) that Glenn Caron might have had some degree of weird obsession with, or at least dislike for, Cybill Shepherd, it is possible that he did - based on his known comments, stories of sticking it to Cybill but never Bruce, hearsay of an imminent sexual harassment suit and the kooky way he wrote her character or allowed her character to be written. Where there’s that much smoke, there’s a fire or at least a flame somewhere.

And for all we know if this was the case and Bruce was never supportive of her, then maybe all his marbles didn’t line up either. Again, no proof, but it is possible.

*hops off soapbox*

Great review MaddieLovesDavid! You are spot on with you assessment of their "relationship". I hated the way the writers treated them and their love for each other...

Thanks, Chelly. It's a wonder that 20 years later I can still get worked up into a passion over this show! Despite my above review, there is still some great acting by Bruce and Cybill in Season 4.