Whatever happened with this case? I went to the Clermont County, Ohio sheriff's department and there was no info on the case. I dont know if that means that the case was solved or if the case has just been forgot about. I dont think Gilbert was murdered in a crime of passion. I do think this was made to look that way though by him having his top removed at the time he was shot. From the sounds of it he was beaten and then shot so clearly someone was trying to get information out of him. I have this feeling that Perman's youngest brother Vernon is tied into this somehow. I am not saying Vernon wanted his brother dead but I think Perman was killed because of stuff his brother was into. I think he was being followed around that day when his brother was testifying at the federal courthouse which I am assuming was in Cincinnati. I am sure drugs and or the mob was involved in this somehow. I think Perman Gilbert had been followed around for some time prior to his death so that whoever killed him basically knew his whole routine. It seems that Perman was more devoted to his brother than his brother was devoted to him. I find that odd that Vernon would not go to Perman's funeral.

Yes this is one of the cases I would love to know more about. I recently sent a copy of the segment to a distant relative and they didn't know anything or if anyone had ever been arrested. I don't think Perman was having an affair but it did seem strange that he would request a specific lady at the flower shop. They may have just been friends though and he wanted to see if she was working that day. I wonder if police ever interviewed her. I tend to lean towards the organized crime theory as they did say Perman's brother was testifying against some figures and Perman did have a feeling he was being followed. It could have been meant as a message to his brother. The fact that Perman's brother didn't attend the funeral leads me to believe that he thought his brother's death could have been ordered by the people he was testifying against and he didn't show up out of fear.

I searched on Newsbank to no avail. Perm's case was not updated the last time it played on Lifetime. Not that it necessarily means anything though...

thanks for taking the time and effort to go to the sheriff's dept kadrmas15, much appreciated.:)

Actually, Perman was found totally naked, it wasn't just his top that was removed. When Perman asked for a specific clerk at the flower shop, he said something to the effect of "She knows what I want" It could have just meant that he frequently got flowers there and she knew what type of arrangement he wanted. However, it was a tad odd that he would go out of state to get those. It's possible he got those out of state so that he wouldn't be noticed doing it, which might mean that he was having an affair.

The cashier that worked at the store where Perman went for the flowers, was interviewed & she said that Perman would often go there & ask her if she would like to have lunch with him. But maybe he was the type of guy that liked to kid around with people. Also, all the women interviewed in the segment commented at how good looking he was.

Then again, I am leaning towards the scenerio with his brother, who was involved in the mob. Maybe the mob killed Perman in retaliation for the brother testifying against them.

Another possibility is that Perman decided to do a drug run in his private airplane & got killed because of it. There are so many angles to this case. I hope that someone comes forward & tells what exactly happened.

Well the woman interviewed in the segment worked at the store but the woman that was interviewed was not the woman he asked for the day he went into the flower shop. It was the woman he asked to have lunch with him in a joking sort of way. The store was a flower shop and grocery store it looked like. I wish I could remember the two towns Perman had to go to that day on repairs. I think one of them was Mount Orab, Ohio which looks to be 45, 50 miles north of Maysville, Kentucky. Maysville only has around 9 thousand people but is the largest town in that area. I have wondered myself why he would go all the way to Maysville. Seems like a rather lengthy drive from his home in Clermont County. The body of Perman I believe was found near Hamersville, Ohio. Okay, the service calls that day also took him to Georgetown and Aberdeen, Ohio. Aberdeen is at the very southern tip of Ohio and is just across the bridge and river from Maysville, Kentucky. It appears that his body and van were dumped into different jurisdictions. I believe his body was actually in Brown County, Ohio while his van was in Clermont County, Ohio but I could be wrong on that. The reason I think his body was in Brown County was because it looks like the body was dumped in a town that is in Brown County. It also appears that other people were in the van with Perman. Did they get into his van when he was at the store in Maysville and did someone hide in the van until Perman got out? Was he forced off the road at some point, killed and then his van driven to a different location? Whomever did this was familiar enough with the area that it appears they dumped the body and ditched the van on rural roads that were not busy roads. Apperantly a lot of women thought Perman was good looking man and while there is no proof that he had an affair with anyone that is certainly a possibility. Or someone could have thought that their wife or girlfriend was having an affair with Perman and jumped the gun.

Personally, I don't believe Perman volunteered to do the drug run. He was pretty adamant in the segment about not wanting to do that, stating at one point "if you guys don't quit bugging me, I'm going to call the authoritites." I believe it was one of the other scenarios: crime of passion or his brother's troubles.

I think it's possible he was having an affair and maybe he was set up by the woman he was messing around with and her boyfriend/husband.

This is an interesting case, and I'm a little surprised it has not attracted more interest on the board. I just rewatched the segment twice, once to get the general story and once for the details, and I think I've come to two conclusions:

1) One of the details being withheld by authorities in this case is precisely what time Perman left the flower shop. He left his home at 8:30 AM, and told his wife he'd be home by three. I think we can safely assume Gilbert wasn't expecting to be murdered, and so, whatever he was doing, he did expect to arrive home by three. There were evidently at least two service calls he had to make in the south of Ohio, after which he proceeded to cross the state line, then stop in at a grocery store, followed by a flower shop. the segment does not say what time any of this occurred. I think this important information to know, because...

2) I'm pretty sure he was killed for his part in a love affair with another woman. Of the three theories presented, this is the only one commented on by law enforcement officials in any detail. The other two --- that he was tangentially or otherwise related to drug trafficking because he owned a plane and that he was targeted by organized crime as a way of getting to his brother, who was testifying in a trial against key figures in the underworld --- depend entirely on hearsay evidence from his wife, who in each case mentions that "Perman told her that..." The daughters, of course, buy these theories, but really have nothing of substance to add. These theories, in short, depend on how much I believe Perman through the conduit of his wife. Perhaps this is just my own prejudice, but he seems, from the way he is presented in the segment, like the exact type of person who would aggrandize himself by telling stories in which he was the target of mafia hitmen and the potential point person for drug trafficking rings. And, even if he wasn't normally a boaster of that nature, my guess is that he had become practiced, at the very least, of the skill of lying to his wife to account for all kinds of otherwise strange behaviors and "missing hours" he might have to account for. Anything he told her, therefore, I dismiss out of hand. He just seems to me like the kind of guy who would make stuff like that up. I can't explain exactly why I feel this way, and admittedly this isn't evidence, but it's my strong suspiscion.

The affair theory, however, makes a lot of sense. Why would Perman cross over to Kentucky to buy some stuff for lunch and try to buy flowers? His service calls were apparently over at about lunch time, and yet he did not expect to return until 3 o'clock. Why? This is why it is so important to know what time he was seen at the flower shop. If he was there at, say, 1 o'clock, my impression is that really would not have left him much time to get back to his home, and reduces the likelihood that he was planning on meeting someone for a romantic tryste. If, however, he was there at closer to 11, but didn't expect to return to his home until 3, I think we have pretty strong evidence that there was another kind of "service call" on his docket that day. I certainly think the police belive this is the strongest likelihood.

I think that one of the strongest pieces of evidence that he was surprised by someone is that his watch was found hung on the gearshift. That suggests to me that he was taking his clothes off inside the van. Why would anyone do that --- except if it was the only place where he believed he and his beloved could share that grand moment of ecstasy. The police detective who is interviewed also, for my mind, hints heavily that physical evidence suggesting a sexual encounter was found --- he mentions hair and other, unspecified physical evidence. Sounds to me like Perman and his honey were nekked in the old van, when someone --- perhaps her husband? --- surprised them.

The only thing that troubles me is why his lover never came forward. I wonder if there were any missing persons cases from the northeastern Kentucky-Ohio area at that time that were never solved? It would be worth looking into, if I were the investigating officer.

nice post mozart. this is actually one of my favorite segments, lots of funny lines in this story.

I always believed it was the love triangle angle. If it was something else, I can't imagine why the murderer(s) would remove all of Perman's clothes.

One thing I just thought of: Was his vehicleever discovered? I wanny say it was discovered about 18 miles from where his body was found, but I dont remember.

Hey Mozart, well very interesting theories as usual, you go very in depth and present new spins on things I have never even thought of so thank you for that.

I am still not sold on the theory that Perman was having an affair but the more I think about the segment as well as what you said, this becomes more and more likely in my mind.

The reason why, is because the way Perman was killed it just doesnt seem like a mob type of hit. I just think if this was a professional hit they would have done better. I dont think Perman's clothes missing was to humiliate the family so much as it was either he had his clothes off when he was killed as you said or the clothes were disposed of to destroy evidence.

The big point you brought up I never thought of is why would his watch be taken off and placed on the gear lever? That is a point that I cant believe I overlooked! It just makes no sense why it would be there unless he was involved in some activity in his van. I dont know anyone that takes off their watch when they go driving. It is just very strange that I overlooked that small but very important detail.

I do disagree on some stuff, his brother was involved in crime stuff, that was well known, it is possible that drug runners approached him about using his plane to transport drugs. I dont know what motive Perman would have to lie about something like that. He might have exaggerated what was happening somewhat, but in terms of lying, it is just my opinion and nothing more that he wasnt lying outright about it. One big glaring discrepency was that Perman was described as very close to his brother Vernon yet Vernon didnt show up to Perman's funeral.

Perman going to Maysville, now that I look it at more wasnt really that out of way in relation to where he was going on his service calls. I believe one of the towns he went to a service call in was just across the Ohio river from Maysville. Maysville was the biggest town in the area. Now I think Perman frequenting the flower shop, it could be he was just good friends with the clerk there or maybe it was something more? I dont know, I dont think it is that unusual that he asked for a specific clerk.

However Mozart you did make good progess in the argument of the jealous lover theory. The more I think about it the more that makes sense. Perman and his lover being in the van engaged in physical activity when either the lover's husband or perhaps the lover herself killed him.

In my opinion the lover was involved either directly or indirectly in the murder. In my opinion if he was having an affair the woman he was having an affair with was probably married or in a relationship as well. In my opinion at least two people were involved in the disposing of the body. Perman looked to be a good sized man so that is why I think at least two people were involved in disposing of his body. Now the van being ditched is another thing.

Even if that was the location where Perman was killed the person that killed him would have to get away from the scene. I am not sure though if where the van was found was the scene of the murder or if where Perman's body was found was the scene of the murder or if it was in a 3rd unknown location.

I cannot remember if his body was found that same day or not, I know it was found in the afternoon in the ditch but if it wasnt found the same day he disappeared than I would think he most likely wasnt dumped until that night since it would very risky, brazen actually to dump a body like that out in the open in broad daylight.

His body was found the day after he went missing. If the van was the scene of the murder, the segment did not indicate as such. Nor did it indicate that where his body was found (some 20 miles away) was the scene of the murder either. Maybe that was one of the facts being withheld to verify tips?

I would tend to agree, kadrmas15, that 2 people might have been needed to move the body, unless Perman was forced at gunpoint to get into a second car while still alive, shot in that car, and simply pushed out on the side of the road where his body was later found.

Still, what bothers me is that no lover ever came forward. Unless, of course, it was the lover that did it --- perhaps he, like many, kept promising someone that he'd leave his wife without ever doing so, until it finally turned violent?

Perhaps the police couldn't determine the scene of the murder.

Another possibility is that the husband or boyfriend of the lady Perman was seeing caught wind of the situation and offed Perman. In that case, there is a good chance that the lady would be dead as well.

One thing that makes the love affair angle seem unlikely is that Perman seemed pretty devoted to his family.

Hey Wiseguy, yes now that I think more about it, it would be hard for the police to find exactly where he was murdered because he was presumably killed in the van it was just a question of where the van was at that time of the murder. In my opinion at least two people were involved in the killing.

I do agree that based on the segment Perman seemed very devoted to his family. However I do imagine that for a man to have lots of women like you it must not always be easy to resist temptation.

However I do imagine that for a man to have lots of women like you it must not always be easy to resist temptation.

I got a kick out of the ladies in the segment that more or less described him as a big hunk of man meat.:lol:

I think he got so upset at having to eat his bologna and cheese by himself that he just did himself in.

I think he got so upset at having to eat his bologna and cheese by himself that he just did himself in.

:lol:

I do think it seems the most believable that maybe Perman Gilbert was having an affair. I find it a little suspicious that he was specifically looking for a certain employee at the flower shop. I mean if he just wanted to send someone flowers, he would have ordered them from anyone. Either it was someone that Perman liked and enjoyed flirting with or maybe there was something more to it. He would have an excuse if he was seeing someone else to leave and meet them since he went on out of town sales calls every weekend. The fact that he was found naked might also be an indication. That sounds more like a boyfriend or husband that caught Perman in the middle of something than a mob hit. Still, very strange case. I sent a copy of this segment to a relative of his several months ago but they didn't know any new details or developments in the case.

I find it a little suspicious that he was specifically looking for a certain employee at the flower shop. I mean if he just wanted to send someone flowers, he would have ordered them from anyone. Either it was someone that Perman liked and enjoyed flirting with or maybe there was something more to it.

That, plus he went out of state to get the flowers. Plus, Perm had the memorable line "She knows what I want", so that would indicate that he was a regular at the flower shop. I wonder if they asked Perm's wife if she ever got flowers from him, if not, I think we have the solution right there. Perm going out of the state regularly to get flowers and asking for a specific employee, sounds like an affair to me.

That, plus he went out of state to get the flowers. Plus, Perm had the memorable line "She knows what I want", so that would indicate that he was a regular at the flower shop. I wonder if they asked Perm's wife if she ever got flowers from him, if not, I think we have the solution right there. Perm going out of the state regularly to get flowers and asking for a specific employee, sounds like an affair to me.

Agreed. Also, I'll bet, when he asked that clerk at the grocery store if she'd have lunch with him today (a question he evidently asked her whenever he was in there), that he was only half-kidding. I can imagine what my girlfriend would think if I essentially asked some woman to share a meal with me every time I saw her.

I got a kick out of the ladies in the segment that more or less described him as a big hunk of man meat.:lol:

You know I think we need to settle this issue right here...to the women of this forum - does Perman Gilbert meet the criteria of what you would describe as a "dream man"? :crazy:

You know I think we need to settle this issue right here...to the women of this forum - does Perman Gilbert meet the criteria of what you would describe as a "dream man"? :crazy:

Well I would certainly classify ole Perm as a big hunk of man meat. :lol:

Well I would certainly classify ole Perm as a big hunk of man meat. :lol:

Hey, I thought you told us that Jule Caylor was your "dream man" :lol:

^ She likes to play the field

Hey, I thought you told us that Jule Caylor was your "dream man" :lol:

Oh absolutely Jule Caylor is my dream man. Perman Gilbert is just my secret crush. :eyes:

I've noticed Cricci hasn't chimed in on her opinion about whether Perman Gilbert is handsome, she probably doesn't want to make Dislimb jealous. ;)

As I remember it, Perman had kind of a middle aged Elvis quality going for him (which apparently was attractive to some of the women he came in contact with).

As I remember it, Perman had kind of a middle aged Elvis quality going for him (which apparently was attractive to some of the women he came in contact with).

Maybe Elvis in the later years (sorry)

You better believe he's a dream man, I love a man that wears a HUGE belt buckle and eats bologna cheese sandwiches.

Well, ya gotta remember that this was in the early 1980's and women at that time probably found different features more attractive than they do now. I actually think the actor that played Perman Gilbert had more of an Elvis look to him than the real Perman did. The real Perman Gilbert appeared to be in much better shape than the actor who played him, the actor was a bit on the pudgy side although his face looked very similar to Perman's and I believe he was about the same height as Perman from what was described about Perman's physical apperance, however the actor certainly was more pudgy than the real Perman. I wonder if Perman liked fried peanut butter and banana sandwiches like the real Elvis loved to munch down in the 1970's?

Hey, not sorry to bring this topic back up, ha, but I was watching it today and this is a case I like because I live close to the area where it happened, actually about an hour. But I have wanted to drive over that way and see if anything looks the same, or if that clyde's store is still there, but I have no way of knowing. Interesting case.

I still laugh at this case. . . That make it sound like Ol' Perm was Austin Powers: "Women want him; men want to be him!"

Sad case. I hate for the guy's family to find out he died naked (as his wife said, probably to humiliate the family). But when she kept saying, "Lots of women found him very attractive..." WTF???

One of the classics, for sure!

I've noticed Cricci hasn't chimed in on her opinion about whether Perman Gilbert is handsome, she probably doesn't want to make Dislimb jealous. ;)

HAHAHA! I totally missed this thread the first time around! While I don't find Perman Gilbert to be a hunk of "man meat," I think he's handsome.

...but then again, you all should know by now that I'm in love with Paul Pollis. :eyes: Dislimb knows. He's cool with it. :)

^ Well as for Mrs. Gilbert I never got what the big deal was I mean I never once looked at her...I didn't find her to be a very attractive woman, I'll put it this way, at the time of Perman Gilbert's death I was engaged to be married to Mrs. Gilbert's sister Connie (http://img3.shareavenue.com/image.php?file=22c722d43c5085db3c9b132cf63d7a06d42e185c)so that would've made Mrs. Gilbert like a sister to me and my family doesn't go in for incest.

Well, Mrs. Gilbert probably was in her mid 40's at least at the time of the segment, she probably was attractive at one time, their daughter that was in the segment wasnt bad looking. I think the women said that Perman Gilbert was a nice looking man, they didnt say he was hot or was drop dead gorgeous, they said he was nice looking and that he was well built, I remember one woman said he had "pretty" eyes. I will admit I have never heard a woman call a man's eyes pretty before. I dont think it is that unusual that Mrs. Gilbert said that she knew other women were attracted to her husband, she was asked about that because UM was playing up the angle that Perman was murdered by a woman's jealous husband or boyfriend.

^ Well as for Mrs. Gilbert I never got what the big deal was I mean I never once looked at her...I didn't find her to be a very attractive woman, I'll put it this way, at the time of Perman Gilbert's death I was engaged to be married to Mrs. Gilbert's sister Connie (http://img3.shareavenue.com/image.php?file=22c722d43c5085db3c9b132cf63d7a06d42e185c)so that would've made Mrs. Gilbert like a sister to me and my family doesn't go in for incest.

:lol: :lol: Gotta love that Wheeler segment, CLASSIC!

Oh, I cant believe I completely missed that, now I see the humor, sorry for taking what you said so seriously DD.

^You should've just clicked on the "Connie" link kadrmas15 ;)

She's a blond....big suprise. :p

Ha, I did click on it DD, I see what you mean.

I believe it was a jealous hubby. Heres why:

If it was organized crime or drug dealers, they would have had to follow him on his route that day to all those out of the way towns,waited for him to make repairs,then followed him to the restaurant,and the flower shop,and so on. Its not believable that this would happen. I think organized crime people would have walked up behind him some place and shot him in the back of the head,and left him lay where he was.Same thing with drug dealers,but they would have killed him closer to home to send a message.

To me it makes the most sense that he was killed by a jealous hubby,thats why he was nude,because he was probably killed while nude,and the killer made his wife keep quiet or helped him dispose of the body. I personally know a man who went to prison for like 20 years.He came home and found his wife in bed with another man.He shot and killed the man,but there was no coverup,he gave up and went to jail.

ANother possibility,forgive me for saying so,but perhaps he was involved in a homosexual affair that he wanted to end?

And another possibility is simply robbery,but going thru all those measures to hide the body and van so far apart doesnt really fit with robbery.

He seemed like a pretty big guy,kind of tough looking,and they said he looked beatup a bit,maybe he was attacked by multiple men,and disposed of?

So many questions,not many answers

I believe it was a jealous hubby. Heres why:

If it was organized crime or drug dealers, they would have had to follow him on his route that day to all those out of the way towns,waited for him to make repairs,then followed him to the restaurant,and the flower shop,and so on. Its not believable that this would happen. I think organized crime people would have walked up behind him some place and shot him in the back of the head,and left him lay where he was.Same thing with drug dealers,but they would have killed him closer to home to send a message.

To me it makes the most sense that he was killed by a jealous hubby,thats why he was nude,because he was probably killed while nude,and the killer made his wife keep quiet or helped him dispose of the body. I personally know a man who went to prison for like 20 years.He came home and found his wife in bed with another man.He shot and killed the man,but there was no coverup,he gave up and went to jail.

ANother possibility,forgive me for saying so,but perhaps he was involved in a homosexual affair that he wanted to end?

And another possibility is simply robbery,but going thru all those measures to hide the body and van so far apart doesnt really fit with robbery.

He seemed like a pretty big guy,kind of tough looking,and they said he looked beatup a bit,maybe he was attacked by multiple men,and disposed of?

So many questions,not many answers

I don't really have a 100% opinion on who killed him. I agree the fact that he was naked could make you think he was caught with another woman and that woman's boyfriend or husband killed him in a fit of rage. He appeared to be a family man but the fact he said he went on out of town service calls every weekend would certainly have provided an excellent opportunity to carry on an affair. I can't see them keeping his belt buckle though in a rage killing. I could see that happening if he was executed by a hit man to bring back to the person who ordered the hit as proof he was dead. I don't think we can discount that angle since the mob certainly wasn't happy with Perman's brother and Perman's murder could have been an attempt to send a clear sign to Perman's brother to keep his mouth shut. Still no clear cut answers in this case.

bump..i want to read more of this.. I am tempted to drive down that way sometime this week to the locations ( I dont' think that clyde's is still there unfortunately, but i wonder if the building is.)

I still wonder what was up with the florist Perman was looking for at Clyde's. He seemed a bit secretive about it, just wanting to see her and when the other lady offered to help said "no, she knows what I like" or something like that. Makes you wonder if there was something going on between them. I assume the police interviewed her after he was found. I wonder if Perman was in the habit of sending his wife (or anyone else) flowers.

Thats great if you can get over there "hosted". If you get a chance to talk to any of the locals maybe you can ask them if anything ever came of the case. I can't find anything about it online. I wish a friend or relative of Perman's would find this board and post so we could find out if there was any arrests or more concrete theories.

This is the first I've heard of this one. I don't remember seeing the segment. I wish they'd show it, if spike ever decides to start airing UM again.

It's too hard to decide what happened from just reading people's opinions on the subject, without seeing the segment, but my first reaction is: He was in the van with a lover, they were caught by her man, the guy killed him, and the woman was intimidated enough by witnessing the murder to keep her mouth shut about it.

Regarding the missing belt buckle, was it just the buckle or the whole belt? If it was just the buckle, was it on one of those belts that are designed so you can change out different buckles on it?

If so, maybe it just came undone during the pre-sex disrobing, and was then lost in the hectic transferring of the body and van, etc.

Oh, and do people who are gonna get busy in a vehicle normally get totally nekkid? Jewelry and all?

I think it's kind of weird that he even took off his watch.

I mean, if he was going swimming, I can see him having the habit of removing his watch and placing it on the gear shifter so it wouldn't get misplaced.

But taking off his watch just to have a little romp in the back of a van?

just went there today...will post my pictures in a bit...

It's hard to see the name...but you should be able to recognize it...the "Welcome to Mt. Orab" Sign...

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q142/stupidbicyclist/permgilbert005.jpg

This is just another welcome sign..this one to georgetown..

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q142/stupidbicyclist/permgilbert008.jpg

This image happened completely by mistake...i was taking a certain road, and there was a detour, this was on that detour..otherwise I never would have found it...This is about 1 minute outside of hamersville...

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q142/stupidbicyclist/permgilbert006.jpg

Simon Kenton Bridge into maysville, ky...

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q142/stupidbicyclist/permgilbert009.jpg

Clyde's supervalu (aka maysville iga) The weird thing about this is...once you cross the bridge into Maysville, its about a 3 minute drive, its not like boom, right there as soon as you cross. Makes it seem he must have gone there somewhat often to know the workers and how to get there.
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q142/stupidbicyclist/permgilbert010.jpg

The money shot :) Now it looks weird.. and no flower shop next door anymore. didn't get out to take pics or go inside..wasn't in the best part of town, and some of these people probably would have been quite mad to get their picture taken..

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q142/stupidbicyclist/permgilbert012.jpg

ooh, very nifty pics. Thanks so much for posting those!

Hostedbyrobertstack, I can't see the pictures at all. I can see what you've typed, but no pictures. Help!

Hey, all the pictures seem to be working on my end. hopefully everyone else can see them.

After going to this site, all of the cities are quite a drive from eachother...no wonder he wasn't going to be back until 3. The thing I'm wondering...maybe he went to get flowers for his "significant other" that he was going to meet with after the flower shop. He may have brought those to her occasionally as the worker "knew" what he wanted. Also...the watch around the gearshift, this could show that he was engaged in some kind of sexual act... (i know many people who take off jewelry of that sort when stuff like that is about to happen.)

Overall, the area is very rural and I'm sure this is very rare in this area. It does not seem the area for a mafia type hit...plus...they would have been easily spotted as being out of place in the area. The shopping area that was Clyde's has really changed and it is kind of sad to actually go there....realizing that was the last location he had been seen (and that I actually took his same route back home...some 27 years later.)

Overall it was nice to go out there...so much different from where I live, yet is is not that far away. Nice and relaxing drive...Plus I remember having seen that segment for years and always wondering if that clyde's was still there....I'm glad I finally got to venture over there.

Thanks so much for the pictures! This is why I love this forum so much... everyone gets really into these mysteries :)

I just re-watched the segment, and I also agree that it was probably a crime of passion. I'm not convinced, though, that it was some jealous husband/boyfriend who happened upon his wife/girlfriend in the van with Mr. Gilbert.

What about the notion of the woman getting angry because Mr. Gilbert wouldn't leave his wife? Perhaps an affair had been going on for a long time, and the woman was in love with him, and was hoping he would leave his wife, and on this particular occasion, the woman got pissed and killed him? Obviously just a theory.

This is a tough case, because the UM segment left out some important details; I did get a sense that it wasn't too weird that he crossed state lines to go to the store, as it sounded like that was the closest store to where his last service was (in southern Ohio). For example, when I lived in Vermont, I would often drive into New Hampshire simply because that was the closest supermarket. Also, just as Mr. Gilbert was flirting (jokingly in a way) with the cashier, he could have been wanting to just say hello to the flower shop person for whom he had asked. It wasn't clear that he was needing to buy flowers; as a salesman, he probably got lonely, and maybe was hoping to say hello to an employee he sees regularly, and engage in harmless flirtation, just as he did with the store clerk. I do agree it would be interesting to know if it was common for him to bring flowers home to his wife.

I don't know... my impression is that some of the things at the store are irrelevant, and that after he left the store, he went to meet his woman (with whom he was having the affair), they started to get physical in the van (watch on the gear shift- great detail to pick up on by the way previous poster).. and either the woman flipped out, or perhaps her jealous husband/boyfriend did.

I am very surprised this case has never been solved though.

Yes I agree that the best probability in this case is that it was a crime of passion. At least to me anyway it is the theory that makes the most sense. It is clear that Perman Gilbert had some run in's with some shady characters but the way he was killed points more towards a crime of passion than a mob hit. I believe they said that Perman Gilbert was naked above the waist at the time he was shot. The watch on the gearshift lever is also an interesting point. Why take that off unless you were preparing for some kind of encounter? Plus Perman Gilbert being dumped out in a ditch like a piece of garbage, naked, his clothes, his wallet, that stuff was missing and to my knowledge has never been found. Why would the mob steal that stuff?

It could be that the woman shot him, but even if it was the woman that shot him, it would be my opinion she would need help to dispose of Perman Gilbert's body. However since it seems that Perman Gilbert either was preparing for, was in the middle of or had just finished up some kind of sexual encounter, it seems weird to me that the woman would shoot him.

To me it makes more sense that the woman's boyfriend/husband discovered what was going on and caught them in the act and shot Perman Gilbert, then forced his wife/girlfriend to help him dispose of Perman Gilbert's body and either they moved the van to a different location or perhaps that is where Perman Gilbert had parked it in preparation for the sexual encounter. Either way, regardless of who the killer was, they would need a way to get away from the van. So there was a second vehicle involved in my opinion.

As for why the clothes were taken? This is an interesting point. They were probably taken to destroy evidence, or it could be that the killer took them as a trophy of his crime. I am not sure the clothes would fit the trophy purpose but possibly the wallet or belt buckle would. I also find it interesting that the killer DID NOT take the watch off the gear shift lever. This tells me that the van was probably parked where it was found and that Perman was having the sexual encounter there when the killer came across the scene and killed him, thus leaving the van there. If the killer left the watch there, it was a colossal overlook because had the watch been taken, it might have given the appearance of a robbery or a mob hit. So again, that is why I tend to lean in the direction that the clothes were taken to destroy evidence.

i doubt it was a mob hit because they found finger prints in the van and im sure a mob hitman would of worn gloves.
Anyone think it could have been a hitchhiker?

i doubt it was a mob hit because they found finger prints in the van and im sure a mob hitman would of worn gloves.
Anyone think it could have been a hitchhiker?

Perhaps, but why would a hitchhiker want Permin found nude? In my opinion (along with many of you), he was having an affair and was "caught in the act" by the woman's boyfriend/husband. That would explain why he was found nude.

1.Anthony Spilotro, the inspiration for Joe Pesci's character in Casino, was beaten nude and buried alive. So it isn't stretch that Permom's death was a mob hit.

2.Perman was a fairly strong and well built man. I find it hard to believe that one man took him down and beat him without assistance. Were there defensive wounds? There would almost have to be.

3. The fact that he was naked above the waste when he was shot is a huge clue!. He was nake, beaten first and then shot. That doesn't seem consistent with a crime of passion. It was almost like he was beaten first and then when the killer didn;t get what he wanted he put Perman out of his misery.

4. There's "dirt" in Perman's background. My instincts tell me that Perman is guilty of more than just being a womanizer. Perman was involved in some illegal activities that led to this point.

5. if he was killed by a jealous husband, it could not have been on speck. It had to have been planned, fo him to have both the gun and "baseball bat" with him. A jealous husband would have just beaten Permon and left him were he was. There's no need to kill him since Permon would most likely not go to the police. It makes no sense for the guy to shoot him at that point.

I personally think this was "hit" of some sort.





Sadly, I have a feeling that Perman made his own bed in this case.

Why was he naked? Like Perm's wife said in the UM segment, "to humiliate the family."

I agree that this was a litte too involved to be a jealous husband crime of passion. I don't think a jealous husband would have gone through the trouble plus his body wasn't exactly hidden. They wanted him to be found which to me indicates mob more than crime of passion.

Oh, and do people who are gonna get busy in a vehicle normally get totally nekkid? Jewelry and all?

I think it's kind of weird that he even took off his watch.

I mean, if he was going swimming, I can see him having the habit of removing his watch and placing it on the gear shifter so it wouldn't get misplaced.

But taking off his watch just to have a little romp in the back of a van?



Devil's advocate....but I often take off my watch simply because the clasp irritates my wrist, sometimes. :)

Any of the theories could be the solution. A mob hit, maybe, only because of his brother's involvement. Helping smuggle drugs in or out of the area. Alot of people make money in this area with drugs being brought in. Alot of devoted family men have affairs around here that are hidden, and in small towns it doesn't take long for a husband/boyriend or everybody to find out. I even started thinking about the hitchhiker idea. Maybe the clothes were destroyed because of evidence and his personal belongings taken to delay the identification. So many blanks to fill in. It's a complex puzzle missing the biggest pieces.

I even started thinking about the hitchhiker idea.

1. The only hitchhiker I think Perman would bother with would be of the female variety. :D. I think Perman would be suspicious of picking someone up, specially given his background.

2. The hitchiker had a blugeon weapon and a gun? And took them both after the deed?

The TV episode had another clue at the end of the episode that isnt included on the UTUBE video. Permans van was found on a very rough country backroad. Right in the middle of his dashboard, perfectly situated was his Masonic ring. If the van had moved an inch, it would have fallen off the dash, it was clearly a master masons message as was the body being found nude. Remember, his Masonic wallet and beltbuckle have never been recovered.

Research the rituals (which contains the oaths) of a master level mason (complete the 3rd degree). Easy with the internet. You are to never have sex (knowingly) with a master masons wife, mother, child, daughter n law, etc. The only 2 crimes a master mason is not supposed to perjure himself in order to protect another master mason is Murder and treason, which obviously have exceptions in this case. 95% of Judges, prosecutors, sheriffs, etc etc etc are masons, most master level as are your politicians. You are basically the ground troops for organized crime (the Illuminati) > eliteist world bankers. Google "speech that got Kennedy Killed", see for yourself.............. And if you dont know the same people killed Lincoiln, attempted to kill Jackson, killed Garfield, attacked the USS liberty or planned the 911 attacks, I cant help the ignorant. Sorry, just the facts. Turn off your TV, your entertained, your not paying attention, and thats how the illuminati does it.

My theory: Perman left that flower shop and someone was in his van and put a 38 to his head to drive to that remote location OR, OR, he was followed & caught doing the wild monkey dance by a masonic husband who had been spying on his wife and had a case of small winky complex. Schoolboy jealousy caused Permans kids & grandkids to grow up without their father. Ancient sin, but hate is easier than forgiveness.

No I dont care and am not afraid, my only child was killed in an auto accident and I was supposed to be dead last month from terminal cancer.:p But an old wise man, not involved, but "qualified to know this" told me this on his death bed out of guilt after he experienced a near death experience. I'm no religious freak, but I do believe our souls of light will be judged by our creator, and our existence is all about loving, helping, and forgiving one another. This man only heard of this story, but it sure has a lot in common with other stories I've heard by many. BTW, he said this jealous husband was sentenced for embezzlement and did some time, but not time like Perman did...............................

Hmm.... I'm kinda excited to see how the conpiracy theory angle pans out with the crowd here. :D

No "Theory" to it sweetheart, facts. Dont talk about this crap or you will become unemployed, I mean it. Like I said, I'm dead anyways, puking 4/7 days of the week, I DGAS.

Whoa, I don't want to fight with a cancer sufferer over nothing, but did you just threaten me in that private message you sent?

Hmmm....

Several things:

1) If Mr. Gilbert was found to attractive by the women in the area, wouldn't it also stand to reason that he might also be found attractive by MEN? Given that this is a rural Ohio and there would be almost taboos against homosexuality/bisexuality it is possible that even if this were suspected, the family would deny it and authorities might not look at that as a possibility.

This could explain how a man could be found semi-clothed in a rural area. It could also explain how another man could get the jump on man of Gilbert's size w/o there being too much of a struggle. Perhaps an "encounter" w/ another man went wrong and it lead to Mr. Gilbert's death.

2) I have seen a number of posters question why he would cross state lines to buy things. I lived 12 miles from the Ohio state line and while I don't usually go there to shop (as it's a rural area) I can see if there were a larger community in another state nearby why someone might do it. Also if he went to another state, it would less likely that he would encounter neighbors, relatives or friends that might question his presence there and purchase of flowers.

3) I think that Mr. Gilbert's brother's involvement in criminal activity had nothing to do w/ what happened to Mr. Gilbert. Most criminal organizations rarely target family members as this brings unneeded attention from law enforcement and usually has the OPPOSITE effect (making the person being warned more likely to testify against them)

Additionally, I think that stories of Mr. Gilbert being asked to use his plane for drug smuggling are (and were) likely to have been either "hyped-up" by the family or perhaps used as a smokescreen to cover for other reasons.

Why would criminals assume that Mr. Gilbert would be interested in muling drugs for them? And if they asked a single time and were refused, why would they ask again? There are more than enough people that would willingly perform the task;why pressure an unwilling one?

4) IMHO, Mr. Gilbert was either killed by an individual that he was having a sexual encounter w/ at the time or he was targeted for a reason that has nothing to do w/ the reasons given on the program.
Why do I think this?

A) Although he was found semi-nude, he wasn't mutilated. A jealous husband probably would either injured him in a "distinctive" manner or would have shot him multiple times after the killing shot.

B) He repaired appliances on the side,almost certainly for cash. If he had several hundred or more dollars on him, he would have made a convenient target for robbery. This would explain why his wallet was missing and also why his buckle was as well.

C) The killer(s) left his body in an area where it could be easily found. Given that the gunshots that killed him went unheeded, why not load him into his van and drive it to an area where an extended period would pass before discovery?
Or bury the body?

This was probably not the work of a professional.

D) The "drug mule" offers are interesting in that they suggest that Mr. Gilbert may not have been above taking on "jobs" of a potentially criminal nature in the past. Perhaps a side job that Mr. Gilbert had undertaken in the past had gone poorly or perhaps he was a little too greedy for someone's "tastes."

Given the amount of time that has passed since this crime was committed, w/o a confession, it's unlikely that this crime will be solved. Too much time has passed and frankly, the authorities may been steered away from potential solutions by the family not wanting to embarrass themselves or "stain" the memory of the victim.

I don't know. Initially I think Perman was involved in an affair. His family is obviously going to be dead set against that, because, let's face it no one would admit their father was doing that. And maybe he wasn't. After all it is just a theory. He wouldn't be the first seemingly devoted family man to stray either.

He was a big man though. 6'2" someone said. He looked rather well built. He wouldn't look like an easy guy to handle. Nothing a weapon won't take care of, but still.

The thing that keeps me from committing on the affair story is the fact that his brother didn't come to his funeral. Does he know something we don't? Was it just merely paranoia? Who knows. But that is rather suspicious.

I think it was probably a hit.

The individuals that approached him to transport drugs were probably not strangers, IMO. As Permon's younger brother Vernon was involved in very shady activities himself, I have little doubt that those people were somehow associated with Vernon. Through little brother they can learn that big brother is a pilot with a private landing strip.

2) I have seen a number poster question why he would cross state lines to buy things. I lived 12 miles from the Ohio state line and while I don't usually go there to shop (as it's a rural area) I can see if there were a larger community in another state nearby why someone might do it.

Exactly. The area Permon lived in is so close to the Kentucky line it's no weird notion at all that he'd regularly cross the line to make purchases. Ask anyone in Fargo, ND, Clarksville, TN, Bristol, VA, or Texarkana, AR. :lol:

They aired this on Lifetime last week but it was edited down as all cases are, I'll have to watch the RS version again. No update at all with in the Farina episode.

I was speaking about this case with another forum member over PM and although I felt that Permon's death may have had something to do with organized crime (much like the theory Meg advances above), he made a very convincing argument that Permon Gilbert was likely murdered due to the fact that he was having an affair which of course was a theory advances in the segment.

If this other forum member wants to come forward and share their theory publicly that is their option but from what they shared with me it seems to cover all bases and seems like it could be a slam dunk.

Lets try to establish a timeline/chain of events here on the day of Permon's murder in hopes it can give us a clearer picture as to what might have happened:

We have a rough starting and ending point in this case. Permon left home at 8:30 a.m. and told his wife he would be back home at 3:30 p.m. That would give him roughly seven hours to be away from home.

During that time he made several service calls (unfortunately we don't know exactly how long each of these calls took) and then crossed the border into Kentucky where he bought lunch and visited a flower shop. This had to take place prior to 4 p.m. as the girl he was looking to order flowers from was not in when Permon stopped by (he was told she would be in at 4 p.m.)

Permon then departed the flower shop for parts unknown and there is no confirmation as to his movements after that time.
============
So here is what we have

8:30 a.m. - Departs home near Hamersville, OH to make service calls in the southern part of the state of Ohio (Mt. Orab, Georgetown, Aberdeen)

According to Google Maps, Permon would have had to have driven north towards Mt. Orab and then consistently south from there as he visited Georgetown and Aberdeen which would have put him right near Maysville, KY where he would buy lunch and attempt to buy flowers.

The amount of travel it would've taken to get to all four of Permon's destinations is not significant as driving straight through it would've taken him little over an hour to make the trip from Hamersville to Maysville. Unfortunately we don't know how much time to allow for the service calls he made in the other three towns but we can surmise that Permon arrived in Maysville sometime around lunchtime.

Lunchtime - Arrives in Maysville, KY - visits Clyde's grocery store, buys lunch and then visits a flower shop next door.

Of course when Permon took his lunch on the day in question is also open to wide speculation although again it would have had to been prior to 4 p.m. when the woman who Permon ordered flowers from arrived at work.

After lunch: Permon departs flower shop telling the woman that he would be back after 4 p.m. - This appointment is obviously not kept.

There are a few interesting things about Permon's visit to the flower shop however which may give some insight as to what his plans were for the rest of the day if his comments can be taken at face value. He told the woman at the flower store that he would "come back later" when the employee he usually did business with arrived. Now he already knew at this point that this employee would not be in until 4 p.m. which was after the time he had told his wife he would return home.

If he had intentions on checking back at the flower shop later on in the day then where was he intending to occupy his time from the time of his first visit until the time of his return?

Also and this question has been brought up a few times to me now...why was Permon Gilbert so familiar with this flower shop in Maysville, KY? Why did he seem to have repeated business at this shop to the point where he would know one of the employees by name?

One could surmise that Permon stopped at the flower shop to pick up flowers for someone in Maysville before meeting them later on in the day. However if we take Permon's comment that he had intentions on returning to that flower shop later in the day it might mean he was intent on picking up flowers for someone in Hamersville (rather than Maysville) to the point where he would be late returning home.

DarkDante and I were discussing this case via PM this week. I decided to watch the segment again as it had been some time since I had last seen it. I typed up my observations and thought I would share them with the forum. Let's see if we can figure out what happened to Permon Gilbert...

This case has always been somewhat difficult to tackle because of the three plausible sounding theories yet seemingly little evidence to support any one theory over another. Lacking sufficient evidence to suggest which theory is correct, I think we should focus on the mechanics of the crime itself.

When I look at this crime, I see some disorganized elements. The detective interviewed indicated that physical evidence was recovered from Permon's van, including fingerprints and hair samples. This suggests a disorganized and inexperienced offender. I think it is unlikely a professional killer would be this sloppy. Wearing gloves or wiping up prints after the fact is a pretty elementary step in the commission of a crime - especially an offense like this where the offender presumably drove the victim's vehicle some distance. I think the possibility of "cleaning up" the van prior to abandoning it either didn't occur to this person, or they were in such a hurry to dispose of it, they didn't care. I think it is also safe to assume that whoever this person was, they didn't have a police record as their prints weren't "in the system" and they probably would have been located by now had they been. To me, this could also be indicative of someone with a minimal or no criminal background, as they have had no known prior run-ins with the law.

Much has been made of the fact that Permon's body was completely nude. I think this is an important clue. Also, consider that the police thought it was likely Permon was nude from the waist up when he was shot, as the bullet wounds contained no clothing fibers. I know this doesn't prove he was completely nude when the shots were fired, but I don't think it's a huge leap in logic to think he was completely nude considering his body was found that way, and his clothes were never recovered. I also think the missing clothes explain the disappearance of Permon's billfold and his Masonic buckle - his billfold was likely in his pants pocket, his Masonic buckle was likely on his belt. I think both items simply disappeared with the rest of his clothes.

Working from that, I think it is likely that Permon's death was a sex crime. The fact that he was discovered nude, likely shot while nude and the disorganized elements lead me to that conclusion.

I also find it interesting and perhaps a bit telling that the other two theories were supported, and perhaps even concocted by Permon's family. By all appearances, Permon seemed to be the perfect family man. He had been married for a number of years, was the father to four children and regularly attended church. No one likes to believe that their spouse or father could be unfaithful. I think this makes the two other theories attractive to the family. Both theories absolve Permon of any wrongdoing or having a hand in his own demise. If anything, the family can almost look at Permon as a "hero" of sorts: he rejected numerous offers to use his plane to fly drugs, he stood by his younger brother Vernon's side and provided support while Vernon testified against organized crime figures. Both theories are completely sound and plausible explanations that don't sully Permon's image.

Unfortunately, I think the evidence points away from a professional hit type scenario and toward a disorganized and probably unplanned sex crime. Next question: who is responsible? As the detective speculated, Permon's home appliance repair business afforded him countless opportunities to be alone with women. Permon was an attractive man. In saying all of the above, I don't mean to imply anything negative about Permon. I think he just gave in to temptation as many men in his position might. For what it's worth, I work for a moving company. One of our drivers has confided to me that he has been hit on a couple of times by women when he was alone in the house with them. He even told me a humorous tale about a woman who answered the door, knowing it was the movers, and she was totally nude! My point is, these things can and do happen, and I think something like this could have happened to Permon. However, it happened with the wrong person and an angry husband or boyfriend retaliated.

I think it is likely that two people were involved in Permon's death. First off, Permon was a big guy. It's hard to imagine one person handling the body alone. Although it wasn't implicitly stated in the segment, I don't think Permon was shot inside his van, or at either of the two locations - where his body was found or where the van was found. Thus his body had to have been moved, and I think two people would have been required to do it. I also think of two people because the van was abandoned pretty much in the middle of nowhere a little over 20 miles from the dumpsite for the body. How would the person abandoning the van have left the scene? They must have been picked up, so I think it is likely that one person drove Permon's van, and someone else followed in another vehicle.

Basically, I think a man - a husband or boyfriend - could have walked in on Permon and his SO having sex. In a jealous rage, this man beat Permon with a gun and shot him. He then convinced his wife/SO to help cover up the crime. This explains the movement of the body and the use of two vehicles. These were inexperienced criminals, so they made crucial mistakes such as leaving behind fingerprints and hairs. They are both involved in the offense, so I would presume this is why the woman, assuming she exists, has never come forward.

One other point worth considering - what was Permon doing at an out of state flower shop? I think it's entirely possible he was buying flowers for his lady love. The segment is vague about the timing with regard to Permon's movements on the day he died. He left his house at 8:30am. He told his wife he expected to be home by 3:00pm and that he had two service calls. I wish we knew just what time he arrived at the flower shop. If he was spotted at the flower shop at say 2:00pm or 2:30pm one could surmise he was buying flowers for his wife. Earlier in the day then, who knows? He would need to allot time for his rendezvous with his mistress (again, assuming she existed). The time he arrived at the shop could be a crucial clue, and I wish we knew for sure.

In any event, there's my two cents.

Lets try to establish a timeline/chain of events here on the day of Permon's murder in hopes it can give us a clearer picture as to what might have happened:

We have a rough starting and ending point in this case. Permon left home at 8:30 a.m. and told his wife he would be back home at 3:30 p.m. That would give him roughly seven hours to be away from home.

UM typically does a good job mentioning on what dates and at what times events occur that are germane to the story. There is a frustrating lack of detail in the Permon Gilbert segment.

We know he left his house at 8:30am on a Saturday and told his wife he expected to return by 3:00pm that afternoon. We know that he planned to make two service calls. Beyond that, there is no mention of specific times with regard to any of Permon's movements that day.

I don't think this information is unknown - surely the police would have attempted to re-trace Permon's steps and conducted interviews with his service calls. Even if Permon's clients didn't know exactly what time Permon arrived at or left their homes, they probably would have been able to provide a rough estimate of those times and the amount of time it took him to complete the repairs. Also, he bought lunch at the market. There must have been a receipt showing exactly what he purchased as well as a date and time.

I think it is reasonable to assume that these times are documented and verified by the police. Unfortunately, the information was left out of UM for some reason having to do with production, or perhaps the police withheld it for some unknown reason. Go figure.

There are a few interesting things about Permon's visit to the flower shop however which may give some insight as to what his plans were for the rest of the day if his comments can be taken at face value. He told the woman at the flower store that he would "come back later" when the employee he usually did business with arrived. Now he already knew at this point that this employee would not be in until 4 p.m. which was after the time he had told his wife he would return home.

If he had intentions on checking back at the flower shop later on in the day then where was he intending to occupy his time from the time of his first visit until the time of his return?

Also and this question has been brought up a few times to me now...why was Permon Gilbert so familiar with this flower shop in Maysville, KY? Why did he seem to have repeated business at this shop to the point where he would know one of the employees by name?

One could surmise that Permon stopped at the flower shop to pick up flowers for someone in Maysville before meeting them later on in the day. However if we take Permon's comment that he had intentions on returning to that flower shop later in the day it might mean he was intent on picking up flowers for someone in Hamersville (rather than Maysville) to the point where he would be late returning home.

Do we know for sure the employee didn't start their shift until 4:00pm? Also, did Permon definitely say he would return later that day? I think this specific dialog may have been part of the re-enactment, in which case I would caution that we don't know how true to life it was.

Also, even if these elements are true and Permon did say "I'll come back later" I don't think it necessarily shows that he had intent to return that same day. Have there been times when you have gone somewhere to pick something up only to be told it's not ready? I have, and I'll typically say "I'll come back", but I may not necessarily return that same day. I just think it's human nature to make a statement like that regardless of your intent to return immediately that day or at some point later on in the future.

I wonder if the cops ever interviewed the employee that Permon was actually there to see - the woman who started her shift at 4:00pm. Maybe she could have provided some insight into the types of purchases Mr. Gilbert had made in the past. Then check with the wife to see if these purchases correlate with flowers or gifts she might remember receiving from her husband. Just an idea.

The more thought I give this, the more I think his movements that day work against the hitman theory. I believe the segment mentioned that Permon did respond to service calls for a major appliance manufacturer during the week. Saturdays were his "freelance" days and he likely did this under the table for extra cash he probably pocketed. The point being that he didn't really have a schedule set in stone with patterns and routines that could easily be tracked. If anything, Saturday was probably the least "routine" of his days. Unless a hitman followed Permon from his home that morning, I find it unlikely he would have known just where Permon would be that would provide an opportune time to accost him.

There is a frustrating lack of detail in the Permon Gilbert segment.

First of all, excellent analysis, justin. I agree with most of what you said. This point I highlighted in particular is something I have always thought. I know the family isn't to blame for anything but from the first time I watched this segment, I almost thought that we weren't getting the full story from his wife. It seemed like she sincerely wants Permon's murderer found and case solved but I felt like she was either misleading with her information or not as forthcoming as she should have been. Of course no one wants to assume that their loved one may have done someone wrong or immoral, but it just seemed like she thought that the only thing possible was the mob related theory.

I do not beleive the mob related theory or anything to do with a hitman theory simply because there was too much evidence left behind such as fingerprints, hair samples, etc as justin stated earlier. In my mind, this is a crime of passion. Permon is probably int he midst of a sexual encounter with someone and this person's significant other comes home and in a jealous rage, beats and kills Permon while he is still nude. The significant other probably threatens the person Permon is having sex with into helping to get rid of his body or else that person will be killed as well. I'd like to know if anyone else was reporting missing or murdered in the weeks/months after Permon's death as this significant other may have killed Permon's sexual partner as well after they got rid of his body and belongings.

Very good point on the flowers situation. If we know what time he bought flowers, we can then determine if they were for his wife or his mistress. This sexual encounter may have been an ongoing affair from one of his previous customers that he hit it off with. I wonder if police went back and interviewed his past clients. I highly doubt this case is ever solved due to how much time has passed. Unless there is a confession, this one will most likely remain unsolved. The fingerprints lifted from Perman's van did not match any fingerprints in the database. Since its still unsolved, I have to assume that these offenders did not commit crimes again in which their prints were left or else we would have a hit somewhere else.

First of all, excellent analysis, justin. I agree with most of what you said. This point I highlighted in particular is something I have always thought. I know the family isn't to blame for anything but from the first time I watched this segment, I almost thought that we weren't getting the full story from his wife. It seemed like she sincerely wants Permon's murderer found and case solved but I felt like she was either misleading with her information or not as forthcoming as she should have been. Of course no one wants to assume that their loved one may have done someone wrong or immoral, but it just seemed like she thought that the only thing possible was the mob related theory.

I do not beleive the mob related theory or anything to do with a hitman theory simply because there was too much evidence left behind such as fingerprints, hair samples, etc as justin stated earlier. In my mind, this is a crime of passion. Permon is probably int he midst of a sexual encounter with someone and this person's significant other comes home and in a jealous rage, beats and kills Permon while he is still nude. The significant other probably threatens the person Permon is having sex with into helping to get rid of his body or else that person will be killed as well. I'd like to know if anyone else was reporting missing or murdered in the weeks/months after Permon's death as this significant other may have killed Permon's sexual partner as well after they got rid of his body and belongings.

Very good point on the flowers situation. If we know what time he bought flowers, we can then determine if they were for his wife or his mistress. This sexual encounter may have been an ongoing affair from one of his previous customers that he hit it off with. I wonder if police went back and interviewed his past clients. I highly doubt this case is ever solved due to how much time has passed. Unless there is a confession, this one will most likely remain unsolved. The fingerprints lifted from Perman's van did not match any fingerprints in the database. Since its still unsolved, I have to assume that these offenders did not commit crimes again in which their prints were left or else we would have a hit somewhere else.


I'm starting to believe it was a crime of passion as well. Permon was 'The Man' :O Maybe he was getting it on, hubby followed, killed him and took the wife home. Many say she would be dead too. Maybe he (the killer) threw her into the car and fled. She could be scared to say anything. Her husband could be abusive.

Out of all three theories presented by UM, there is only one that would have resulted in Perman being found nude and beaten. And that is the crime of passion theory. Perman simply being an appliance repair man wouldn't have lead LE to suspect that he may have been having an affair, and I wonder if there was more that they knew than they led on in the UM segment. Honestly, would that be the first thing on someone's mind after finding out Perman did side jobs on the weekends? "Oh, he's home alone with Mrs. Jones fixing up her microwave...they must be having an affair!" That always sounded ridiculous to me. The other two scenarios (drug running & mob retaliation) don't make sense to me. Drug runners who were refused service by Perman, would seem more likely to simply leave him alone and find someone who would fly their drugs instead of killing Perman. If all Perman did was politely turn down these men, I doubt the people would have killed him over that. As for the mob retaliation, Perman's brother was the one testifying against this alleged "mob", so why not kill him? Perman may have known some things after being told by his brother, but why not go directly to the source instead of killing his brother? And an organized crime ring wouldn't have been as sloppy as to have left Perman in the nude on the side of the road.

Which is why I think this was simply a case of a man catching Perman in bed with his wife/girlfriend, who accosted him out of the bedroom at gunpoint. He then drove him to a secluded area, beat him, and shot him. And the girlfriend/wife was probably forced into helping move his vehicle/body and into helping clean up the crime scene, which is probably why she never came forward after all these years.

Which is why I think this was simply a case of a man catching Perman in bed with his wife/girlfriend, who accosted him out of the bedroom at gunpoint. He then drove him to a secluded area, beat him, and shot him. And the girlfriend/wife was probably forced into helping move his vehicle/body and into helping clean up the crime scene, which is probably why she never came forward after all these years.

Which is the theory Justin presented to me a few weeks back. It also explains why Permon's possessions went missing as they likely disappeared back at the home of the girlfriend along with his clothing. The only thing is that we can't rule out the possibility that this woman in question that Permon may have been having an affair with was somebody he met through his repair business. I think UM was correct in noting that the nature of Permon's work left him in the home in potentially intimate situations with a family member (read: wife/girlfriend) and the fact that if this theory does hold true and Permon was murdered while out on one of his normal business routes that would lead me to believe that he may have come in contact with this woman initially through his line of work.

It's kind of irrelevant though where he met her because if it was through work the police obviously weren't able to trace her through his log books etc.

I think UM was correct in noting that the nature of Permon's work left him in the home in potentially intimate situations with a family member (read: wife/girlfriend) and the fact that if this theory does hold true and Permon was murdered while out on one of his normal business routes that would lead me to believe that he may have come in contact with this woman initially through his line of work.

I tend to slightly disagree, I just don't see how being an appliance repairman alone would lead LE to suspect he may have been involved in an affair. I think they knew more than what was being said in the segment. Did anyone else find it odd that his wife did not make any attempt to go looking for him until 3 a.m.? Wasn't he supposed to be back home at 3 p.m.?

I tend to slightly disagree, I just don't see how being an appliance repairman alone would lead LE to suspect he may have been involved in an affair. I think they knew more than what was being said in the segment.

I agree. it's almost as though they had evidence that suggested an affair but did not want to say what it was but at the same time, they wanted to get it out there that an affair was a possibility.


Did anyone else find it odd that his wife did not make any attempt to go looking for him until 3 a.m.? Wasn't he supposed to be back home at 3 p.m.?

I didn't find it odd only because I have no idea what I would do in that situation. We are talking about an era before cell phones so its not like she could just call and see where he's at. I think she may have kept thinking, "he'll be home at any minute" and then finally took off looking at 3am.

I didn't find it odd only because I have no idea what I would do in that situation. We are talking about an era before cell phones so its not like she could just call and see where he's at. I think she may have kept thinking, "he'll be home at any minute" and then finally took off looking at 3am.

But his wife didn't go out looking for him at 3 a.m. She called a neighbor or a friend to see if they heard from him. We really don't know what we would do in a situation like that and I know in the segment she said she was too scared to go out of the house to look for him, and I do believe her since she had a small child. But what exactly was she scared of? Possibly finding him with another woman? She knew, at the very least, the general area in which Permon had some service calls that day, so she could have gotten someone to go looking for him earlier than 3 in the morning. I know it was a different era, and cell phones weren't even a thought yet, but I also know that if someone was going to be out later than usual they would at the very least phone their spouse and let them know. Permon gave his wife no indication that he would have been home at any other time other than 3 p.m.

EDIT - I just want it to be known that I'm not hinting or implying that Permon's wife had a hand in his murder, I just find it odd that she waited that long before she called around looking for him.

I tend to slightly disagree, I just don't see how being an appliance repairman alone would lead LE to suspect he may have been involved in an affair. I think they knew more than what was being said in the segment. Did anyone else find it odd that his wife did not make any attempt to go looking for him until 3 a.m.? Wasn't he supposed to be back home at 3 p.m.?

Well first off they probably did know more than they said in the segment (they usually do). I think the nature of Permon's appliance repair business coupled with his activities on the day he was killed does tend to lend credence to the affair theory.

Personally after I had given it some thought, I came to the conclusion that I would have a much easier time accepting that Permon's death was related to something other than a work-related affair if he was killed closer to his home. The fact that he was killed in an unknown location leads me not only towards the affair theory but also leads me to believe that Permon's alleged relationship with this woman was initially borne out of his appliance repair business in some capacity.

My feeling is this woman was somebody whom he came in contact with either making a service call to her house or someone he met possibly on his routine trips to Maysville (or the surrounding areas) and he may have found himself in an "ideal situation" where he had a woman in another city far away enough from Hamersville that he could drop in on regularly and his appliance repair business provided a perfect alibi for him to be in that area regularly without anyone else giving it a second thought.

The individual(s) who killed Permon obviously had intimate knowledge of where he lived because they dumped his body in a location where it would been quickly identified by family. That to me also speaks of a situation where someone who was involved in the murder of Permon Gilbert knew where he lived and dumped his body back in Hamersville perhaps hoping that in transporting the body possibly across state lines it would tend to have the police focus their attention on Hamersville than where Permon was actually murdered and if you believe in the affair theory where the affair was being carried on in the first place.

Edit: I also want to post this footnote for the record since we are discussing so openly the possibility of Permon Gilbert having an affair. I in no way am casting judgment Permon Gilbert for carrying on an affair if that is what he was indeed doing. I don't pretend to know what was going on in Permon's personal life at the time of his murder and therefore cannot form an opinion on him personally in any way.

I tend to slightly disagree, I just don't see how being an appliance repairman alone would lead LE to suspect he may have been involved in an affair. I think they knew more than what was being said in the segment. Did anyone else find it odd that his wife did not make any attempt to go looking for him until 3 a.m.? Wasn't he supposed to be back home at 3 p.m.?


You, my friend, have an excellent point. If my husband said he'd be back at 3pm, I would start to worry by 4pm. Only reason I would give it a whole hour is because he fixes appilances. Maybe he had to go buy a part or such. I know this is before cell phones, but I would be very concern! Was it normal for him to be 12 hrs late? :O I mean, that is when she panicked, 3am. She didn't seem too concerned at midnight (if my memory serves me right) she was worried, but not freaking out. 3am is when she freaked.

The individual(s) who killed Permon obviously had intimate knowledge of where he lived because they dumped his body in a location where it would been quickly identified by family. That to me also speaks of a situation where someone who was involved in the murder of Permon Gilbert knew where he lived and dumped his body back in Hamersville perhaps hoping that in transporting the body possibly across state lines it would tend to have the police focus their attention on Hamersville than where Permon was actually murdered and if you believe in the affair theory where the affair was being carried on in the first place.

I think the woman he was having an affair with played some role in his slaying, be it the actual pulling of the trigger or the cover up. This would account for how Permon's killer knew where he lived, which is why his body was dumped close to there IMO.

Didn't his wife make some comment about how Perman said he didn't want to go that Saturday? If it's true, then I would think that he didn't want to see a specific person that day that he was scheduled to visit.

We need a map for this case. First his scheduled stops, then the market, then the location of the body and the location of the van. I'd like to see where they are in relation to one another.

Didn't his wife make some comment about how Perman said he didn't want to go that Saturday? If it's true, then I would think that he didn't want to see a specific person that day that he was scheduled to visit.

We need a map for this case. First his scheduled stops, then the market, then the location of the body and the location of the van. I'd like to see where they are in relation to one another.

If you google "Swope Road Bethel, OH" you can see the road where his body was found. And there are pictures that someone posted of the general area Permon was traversing around on the day he disappeared, in the earlier pages of this thread.

Anyone see this new article?

HAMERSVILLE, Ohio | For the last 30 years, police believe a murderer has been living in the area. Someone who was capable of beating and shooting a man to death, then leaving his nude body in a ditch.
Clermont County Sheriff's investigations unit believes it may be possible the murderer is still alive and living nearby. The unit has opened its cold case file on the investigation into the death of Permon "Gene" Gilbert, of Hamersville, who was 46 years old when he died.
It will be 30 years ago on May 23, 1982, when Gilbert's body was found in Clermont County along Swope Road about 5 miles from his home located on Ohio 774, according to police.
Thirty years is a long time. A lot of people have died. Gilbert had a wife, Joanne Schneider Gilbert, and children. He could be a grandfather today, but he didn't get that life.
Deputies are looking for witnesses who may open up a new line of investigation and bring some justice to the Gilbert family.
As in any cold case, there are always a lot of rumors. Deputies are attempting to try to find the answers to all of the questions regarding what happened that day to Gilbert.
Lt. Steve Leahy of CCSO said his office has periodically looked back at the case as more modern ways of analyzing the evidence was discovered.
At the time of Gilbert's death, there were rumors of drug running related to a small plane he flew, organized crime, or a jealous husband, according to reports.
However, all indications show Gilbert was a family man, a very pleasant and friendly person, Leahy said.
Gilbert was last seen at Clyde's Super Value grocery store at 1200 Forest Avenue, Maysville, on May 22, just before noon and in the Carol Jean Flower shop next door, according to reports.
Deputies would like to learn about other places he might have visited that day leading up to his death, Leahy said.
"We know he was not murdered in the ditch where he was found," Leahy said.
His brown and cream two-toned 1979 Ford Chateau Club Van was found several days later abandoned in Adams County on Ebeneezer Road. This van was very squarish, with windows all the way around it, and mostly brown, Leahy said.
Gilbert was a traveling appliance repairman of washers and dryers, so he traveled in Brown, Clermont and Adams counties in Ohio and northern Kentucky. He was known by many people at the Maysville grocery store, according to the CCSO.
"We have a very big and extensive file, it is very in-depth ... but not enough. Hypothetically, in a crime like this we theorize many scenarios until enough evidence is found. But in this case there was no actual smoking gun to follow," Leahy said.
Sheriff's investigators believe someone had a vendetta against Gilbert that may be related to his activities in Maysville. Several people have been identified that may have some information related to the case, according to the CCSO.
"We are hoping this could bring closure to the family and give the opportunity of clearing the conscious of whoever was involved, " Leahy said.
The cold case was opened in November 2011 and assigned for a follow-up investigation by deputies.
Gilbert had brown hair, brown eyes and he was wearing dark blue uniform pants, tan cowboy boots, a light blue shirt with a name tag that read --Gilbert with a G.E. emblem on it. He was 6-feet-2-inches tall and weighed 200 pounds. His Masonic billfold and Masonic belt buckle were missing, according to reports.
Anyone with new or old information about the Gilbert case should call Leahy or Sgt. Chris Stratton at 513-732-7545.


Read more: http://www.maysville-online.com/news/local/year-old-murder-case-investigated/article_7fe31cc0-93ef-5368-a534-ffeb277f87d6.html#ixzz1s2A2YlEC

Wow, this is quite the information. It's good that someone is still following this and pushing for its closure. Is his widow still alive? It's pretty awful that his family was robbed of more time with him. I always wonder why they would have stripped him nude and dumped his body in a ditch that is visible from the road? Some kind of sick humiliation or something.

Interesting case to hear being re-opened. I got the vibe that if this was an organized crime hit due to his involvement with drugs, so it's interesting to hear law enforcement re-opening. Maybe a mob boss the area died recently and think people will talk now?

What do you think the significance of his Masonic billfold and belt buckle being the only items missing could be?

Interesting case to hear being re-opened. I got the vibe that if this was an organized crime hit, so it's interesting to hear law enforcement re-opening. Maybe a mob boss the area died recently and think people will talk now?

Yes. Mob was heavy in Ohio in the 70-80's. I didn't realize until I lived in Youngstown aka car bomb USA for awhile.

What do you think the significance of his Masonic billfold and belt buckle being the only items missing could be?

Pretty sure his clothes were missing too. I think they were thrown out to get rid of evidence (blood, hair, finger prints, etc.) rather than significance.

Pretty sure his clothes were missing too. I think they were thrown out to get rid of evidence (blood, hair, finger prints, etc.) rather than significance.
Yeah.... I know that Masonic items are sold often and collected. Also, with all of the conspiracy theories involving Freemasonry, I guess I still am curious.

Nice to see this cold case getting some much needed attention. I hope it can be solved.

I wrote up my theory of the crime almost a year ago on another thread. Here it is again. I still stand by it...

DarkDante and I were discussing this case via PM this week. I decided to watch the segment again as it had been some time since I had last seen it. I typed up my observations and thought I would share them with the forum. Let's see if we can figure out what happened to Permon Gilbert...

This case has always been somewhat difficult to tackle because of the three plausible sounding theories yet seemingly little evidence to support any one theory over another. Lacking sufficient evidence to suggest which theory is correct, I think we should focus on the mechanics of the crime itself.

When I look at this crime, I see some disorganized elements. The detective interviewed indicated that physical evidence was recovered from Permon's van, including fingerprints and hair samples. This suggests a disorganized and inexperienced offender. I think it is unlikely a professional killer would be this sloppy. Wearing gloves or wiping up prints after the fact is a pretty elementary step in the commission of a crime - especially an offense like this where the offender presumably drove the victim's vehicle some distance. I think the possibility of "cleaning up" the van prior to abandoning it either didn't occur to this person, or they were in such a hurry to dispose of it, they didn't care. I think it is also safe to assume that whoever this person was, they didn't have a police record as their prints weren't "in the system" and they probably would have been located by now had they been. To me, this could also be indicative of someone with a minimal or no criminal background, as they have had no known prior run-ins with the law.

Much has been made of the fact that Permon's body was completely nude. I think this is an important clue. Also, consider that the police thought it was likely Permon was nude from the waist up when he was shot, as the bullet wounds contained no clothing fibers. I know this doesn't prove he was completely nude when the shots were fired, but I don't think it's a huge leap in logic to think he was completely nude considering his body was found that way, and his clothes were never recovered. I also think the missing clothes explain the disappearance of Permon's billfold and his Masonic buckle - his billfold was likely in his pants pocket, his Masonic buckle was likely on his belt. I think both items simply disappeared with the rest of his clothes.

Working from that, I think it is likely that Permon's death was a sex crime. The fact that he was discovered nude, likely shot while nude and the disorganized elements lead me to that conclusion.

I also find it interesting and perhaps a bit telling that the other two theories were supported, and perhaps even concocted by Permon's family. By all appearances, Permon seemed to be the perfect family man. He had been married for a number of years, was the father to four children and regularly attended church. No one likes to believe that their spouse or father could be unfaithful. I think this makes the two other theories attractive to the family. Both theories absolve Permon of any wrongdoing or having a hand in his own demise. If anything, the family can almost look at Permon as a "hero" of sorts: he rejected numerous offers to use his plane to fly drugs, he stood by his younger brother Vernon's side and provided support while Vernon testified against organized crime figures. Both theories are completely sound and plausible explanations that don't sully Permon's image.

Unfortunately, I think the evidence points away from a professional hit type scenario and toward a disorganized and probably unplanned sex crime. Next question: who is responsible? As the detective speculated, Permon's home appliance repair business afforded him countless opportunities to be alone with women. Permon was an attractive man. In saying all of the above, I don't mean to imply anything negative about Permon. I think he just gave in to temptation as many men in his position might. For what it's worth, I work for a moving company. One of our drivers has confided to me that he has been hit on a couple of times by women when he was alone in the house with them. He even told me a humorous tale about a woman who answered the door, knowing it was the movers, and she was totally nude! My point is, these things can and do happen, and I think something like this could have happened to Permon. However, it happened with the wrong person and an angry husband or boyfriend retaliated.

I think it is likely that two people were involved in Permon's death. First off, Permon was a big guy. It's hard to imagine one person handling the body alone. Although it wasn't implicitly stated in the segment, I don't think Permon was shot inside his van, or at either of the two locations - where his body was found or where the van was found. Thus his body had to have been moved, and I think two people would have been required to do it. I also think of two people because the van was abandoned pretty much in the middle of nowhere a little over 20 miles from the dumpsite for the body. How would the person abandoning the van have left the scene? They must have been picked up, so I think it is likely that one person drove Permon's van, and someone else followed in another vehicle.

Basically, I think a man - a husband or boyfriend - could have walked in on Permon and his SO having sex. In a jealous rage, this man beat Permon with a gun and shot him. He then convinced his wife/SO to help cover up the crime. This explains the movement of the body and the use of two vehicles. These were inexperienced criminals, so they made crucial mistakes such as leaving behind fingerprints and hairs. They are both involved in the offense, so I would presume this is why the woman, assuming she exists, has never come forward.

One other point worth considering - what was Permon doing at an out of state flower shop? I think it's entirely possible he was buying flowers for his lady love. The segment is vague about the timing with regard to Permon's movements on the day he died. He left his house at 8:30am. He told his wife he expected to be home by 3:00pm and that he had two service calls. I wish we knew just what time he arrived at the flower shop. If he was spotted at the flower shop at say 2:00pm or 2:30pm one could surmise he was buying flowers for his wife. Earlier in the day then, who knows? He would need to allot time for his rendezvous with his mistress (again, assuming she existed). The time he arrived at the shop could be a crucial clue, and I wish we knew for sure.

In any event, there's my two cents.

Addendum with regard to the timing of the events...

UM typically does a good job mentioning on what dates and at what times events occur that are germane to the story. There is a frustrating lack of detail in the Permon Gilbert segment.

We know he left his house at 8:30am on a Saturday and told his wife he expected to return by 3:00pm that afternoon. We know that he planned to make two service calls. Beyond that, there is no mention of specific times with regard to any of Permon's movements that day.

I don't think this information is unknown - surely the police would have attempted to re-trace Permon's steps and conducted interviews with his service calls. Even if Permon's clients didn't know exactly what time Permon arrived at or left their homes, they probably would have been able to provide a rough estimate of those times and the amount of time it took him to complete the repairs. Also, he bought lunch at the market. There must have been a receipt showing exactly what he purchased as well as a date and time.

I think it is reasonable to assume that these times are documented and verified by the police. Unfortunately, the information was left out of UM for some reason having to do with production, or perhaps the police withheld it for some unknown reason. Go figure...

The more thought I give this, the more I think his movements that day work against the hitman theory. I believe the segment mentioned that Permon did respond to service calls for a major appliance manufacturer during the week. Saturdays were his "freelance" days and he likely did this under the table for extra cash he probably pocketed. The point being that he didn't really have a schedule set in stone with patterns and routines that could easily be tracked. If anything, Saturday was probably the least "routine" of his days. Unless a hitman followed Permon from his home that morning, I find it unlikely he would have known just where Permon would be that would provide an opportune time to accost him.

Read more: http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/showthread.php?t=182876&page=5&highlight=permon+gilbert#ixzz1s3sHqfYZ

I concur with justins5256's theory on the case. Some jealous lover caught Perman in the act and killed him in a fit of rage. I also think it's quite possible that Perman's lover (if this were indeed what had happened) helped cover up the crime. It's interesting that there are "several people" who "may have information" about the case. I'm glad it's reopened and hopefully we get a confession or some information that leads to an arrest.

I thought I had read where one of the organized crime figures that his brother was testifying against was John Gotti. That would certainly explain a lot.

The more I think about it, the more I really think that Perm was indeed having an affair.

Gee,that's funny,because I've never thought it was anything but connected to Freemasonry. If ya knew what goes on when you get deep into that organization,it becomes clear that they are nothing short of a major criminal enterprise. Oh it was organized crime alright,just the kind we are used to thinking of.
No one who knows what really goes on in that "organization" would EVER speak. That's why there's no resolution to this case. Very similar to a cult the Freemasons are. More sophisticated,but basically,the same type of beliefs.
The fact that is Masons wallet and belt buckle were missing,said it all to me. Humiliation is important to that sick organization,so him being found nude makes perfect sense to me! :nonono:

Gee,that's funny,because I've never thought it was anything but connected to Freemasonry. If ya knew what goes on when you get deep into that organization,it becomes clear that they are nothing short of a major criminal enterprise.

This is true in some areas, but I think if this was the case he either would not have been found OR there would have been a more ritualistic slant to the way his body was left. There are also a lot of people like my ex-boyfriend who want people to think they're far more into a subculture than they really are.

I agree with Justin because I think this follows the same path that quite a few stories on the show did - yet another case where the family did not want to believe the obvious. The only way I would think drugs were involved is that his girlfriend happened to be related to someone heavily involved in them.

I don't think he necessarily had a lot of women on the side, it'd just take one with a very angry husband. I wonder if the killer has passed away and now people are talking because they don't have to worry about the person's temper any longer.

It's a real shame this case will likely never be solved; after 30 years, the chances that the murderer or murderers are dead themselves are pretty good. I would put this case up among the most interesting UM ever did.

Gee,that's funny,because I've never thought it was anything but connected to Freemasonry. If ya knew what goes on when you get deep into that organization,it becomes clear that they are nothing short of a major criminal enterprise. Oh it was organized crime alright,just the kind we are used to thinking of.
No one who knows what really goes on in that "organization" would EVER speak. That's why there's no resolution to this case. Very similar to a cult the Freemasons are. More sophisticated,but basically,the same type of beliefs.
The fact that is Masons wallet and belt buckle were missing,said it all to me. Humiliation is important to that sick organization,so him being found nude makes perfect sense to me! :nonono:

Um, ok.

Personally I think I'm going to go with the buckle and wallet disappearing because the clothes themselves disappeared.

Um, ok.

Personally I think I'm going to go with the buckle and wallet disappearing because the clothes themselves disappeared.

Same here. Everybody's looking for a conspiracy.

It's approaching the Sammy Wheeler level of ridiculousness. :crazy:

Very intriguing segment.

I'm with most people and lean towards the theory that he was having an affair and that his death had something to do with that affair.

I don't buy the drug-runner theory or the Mob theory, unless he had some involvement with either outfit, and there's no evidence that he did. Smuggling is a shadowy job and drug-runners aren't exactly try to intimidate outsiders into helping them. Draws too much unwanted attention.

Same goes for the mob hit theory. Remember this was 1982. The Wild West days of the Mafia were long gone, as this was right around the time the feds were giving out 100-year prison sentences like candy to various Mob bosses/associates. Not to mention the fact that the Mob targeting someone's family members is mainly a thing of the past. By this point, if a loved one was killed, it was because they were collateral damage in a larger-scale hit.

The Mob of course could've threatened Vernon's family, but the chances of them carrying that out were slim. All that would do is bring more unwanted attention and more criminal charges against them. What are they gonna do then? Wipe out the whole family?

I think the dead-giveaway in this case is Perm attempting to order a specialized bouquet of flowers. It's not so much that he was in Kentucky. I live in Southeastern PA and many, many people cross the state lines into Delaware for shopping as DE has no sales tax. It's quick, easy and cheaper.

I have every reason to believe Perm was carrying on an affair with one (or more) of his female customers and the flowers were for her.

I also think the wife knew about it or at least suspected something was up. An earlier poster asked why his wife waited until 3 AM, 12 whole hours after Perm said he was going to be home, to call the police.

Obviously his wife took no action because Perm showing up 7 or 8 hours after he said he was gonna be home was nothing out of the ordinary for him. It's KIND'VE obvious that the wife knew something was going on and tolerated it, like many spouses unfortunately do. It's only when it started getting into pre-dawn hours that the wife knew something was up.

I agree with the wife that the scattering of Perm's body 22 miles away from his abandoned van seemed too elaborate to be a crime of passion, which is usually pretty swift. But I also think that not a lot of thought was put into this murder.

That's also how I know it wasn't a mob hit. The mob would've either left him where they found him (especially if Perm was a tangential target) or saw to it that he body was never recovered (like a real Mob hit). The coverup of Perm's killing seems to hasty and random, as if someone was frantically scattering his body and van to throw the police down a rabbit trail.

I also don't think his paramour was in on it. I think an angry husband was following Perm and caught him off-guard. Whatever happened after that is anyone's guess.

Very intriguing segment.

I'm with most people and lean towards the theory that he was having an affair and that his death had something to do with that affair.

I don't buy the drug-runner theory or the Mob theory, unless he had some involvement with either outfit, and there's no evidence that he did. Smuggling is a shadowy job and drug-runners aren't exactly try to intimidate outsiders into helping them. Draws too much unwanted attention.

Same goes for the mob hit theory. Remember this was 1982. The Wild West days of the Mafia were long gone, as this was right around the time the feds were giving out 100-year prison sentences like candy to various Mob bosses/associates. Not to mention the fact that the Mob targeting someone's family members is mainly a thing of the past. By this point, if a loved one was killed, it was because they were collateral damage in a larger-scale hit.

The Mob of course could've threatened Vernon's family, but the chances of them carrying that out were slim. All that would do is bring more unwanted attention and more criminal charges against them. What are they gonna do then? Wipe out the whole family?

I think the dead-giveaway in this case is Perm attempting to order a specialized bouquet of flowers. It's not so much that he was in Kentucky. I live in Southeastern PA and many, many people cross the state lines into Delaware for shopping as DE has no sales tax. It's quick, easy and cheaper.

I have every reason to believe Perm was carrying on an affair with one (or more) of his female customers and the flowers were for her.

I also think the wife knew about it or at least suspected something was up. An earlier poster asked why his wife waited until 3 AM, 12 whole hours after Perm said he was going to be home, to call the police.

Obviously his wife took no action because Perm showing up 7 or 8 hours after he said he was gonna be home was nothing out of the ordinary for him. It's KIND'VE obvious that the wife knew something was going on and tolerated it, like many spouses unfortunately do. It's only when it started getting into pre-dawn hours that the wife knew something was up.

I agree with the wife that the scattering of Perm's body 22 miles away from his abandoned van seemed too elaborate to be a crime of passion, which is usually pretty swift. But I also think that not a lot of thought was put into this murder.

That's also how I know it wasn't a mob hit. The mob would've either left him where they found him (especially if Perm was a tangential target) or saw to it that he body was never recovered (like a real Mob hit). The coverup of Perm's killing seems to hasty and random, as if someone was frantically scattering his body and van to throw the police down a rabbit trail.

I also don't think his paramour was in on it. I think an angry husband was following Perm and caught him off-guard. Whatever happened after that is anyone's guess.

Welcome. :wave:

I used to think it was a hit for a long time. For the past couple of years I've been turning over the so-called "crime of passion" theory in my mind and now I think it's the most likely. I agree 100% with everything you mentioned--the fact that it doesn't seem like much forethought was put into the murder. The more I considered it, the more I began to see how disorganized the whole thing was.

Wow, I'm amazed at how many people suspect an affair angle. I always thought he was caught in a hasty robbery or something of that nature.

Usually I am very wary of these Topix forums, as I find they tend to be overpopulated with bored yokels viciously gossiping about each other. However, I did come across something a little interesting concerning Permon Gilbert. There's a lot of chatter, but the important bit is at the bottom of this thread:

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/maysville-ky/T286S8K6L5B48LK26

Poster claims Permon was seeing the flower shop employee that wasn't available when he came in at noon, and actually names her. Of course I wouldn't cling on to that as gospel, but I do think it could possibly explain the slightly elusive behavior Permon exhibited at the flower shop.

Usually I am very wary of these Topix forums, as I find they tend to be overpopulated with bored yokels viciously gossiping about each other. However, I did come across something a little interesting concerning Permon Gilbert. There's a lot of chatter, but the important bit is at the bottom of this thread:

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/maysville-ky/T286S8K6L5B48LK26

Poster claims Permon was seeing the flower shop employee that wasn't available when he came in at noon, and actually names her. Of course I wouldn't cling on to that as gospel, but I do think it could possibly explain the slightly elusive behavior Permon exhibited at the flower shop.

Awesome find!!!
I'm with pretty much everyone here that thinks there was an affair going on. Small town chatter can run like wildfire, and I think the affair information surfaced and that's why Permon was murdered.

Jo Ann Gilbert, Permon's wife who was interviewed in the segment, died in April of last year. She was 75.

http://browncountypress.1upmonitor.com/main.asp?SectionID=9&SubSectionID=41&ArticleID=13238&TM=75955.62

Jo Ann Gilbert, Permon's wife who was interviewed in the segment, died in April of last year. She was 75.

http://browncountypress.1upmonitor.com/main.asp?SectionID=9&SubSectionID=41&ArticleID=13238&TM=75955.62


For some reason, I thought they had 4 daughters (wonder where I got that idea) but the obit lists 3.

Mrs. Gilbert's obituary says she was preceded in death by a son. How sad she lost a child and her husband.

Usually I am very wary of these Topix forums, as I find they tend to be overpopulated with bored yokels viciously gossiping about each other. However, I did come across something a little interesting concerning Permon Gilbert. There's a lot of chatter, but the important bit is at the bottom of this thread:

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/maysville-ky/T286S8K6L5B48LK26

Poster claims Permon was seeing the flower shop employee that wasn't available when he came in at noon, and actually names her. Of course I wouldn't cling on to that as gospel, but I do think it could possibly explain the slightly elusive behavior Permon exhibited at the flower shop.

Good find. It actually makes sense as to why he would have went to that shop that day.

Usually I am very wary of these Topix forums, as I find they tend to be overpopulated with bored yokels viciously gossiping about each other. However, I did come across something a little interesting concerning Permon Gilbert. There's a lot of chatter, but the important bit is at the bottom of this thread:

Poster claims Permon was seeing the flower shop employee that wasn't available when he came in at noon, and actually names her. Of course I wouldn't cling on to that as gospel, but I do think it could possibly explain the slightly elusive behavior Permon exhibited at the flower shop.

Just rewatched this one and reread this thread and the affair theory really makes the most sense. This post was a great piece of info, and we all know how UM often leaves out info that is vital but paints the victim or their family in a negative light. So it could have very well been known that Perm was having an affair, but the show didn't want to say for sure and just allowed his wife to comment on that possibility.

Incidentally- that topix thread was a right mess! Makes you appreciate the posts here all the more.

Incidentally- that topix thread was a right mess! Makes you appreciate the posts here all the more.

Seriously, this forum is AMAZING. I can't think of one regular poster who is obnoxious, inflammatory, or out-and-out disrespectful. Sure, we pick up a moonbat or wingnut every once in a blue moon, but in the five-and-a-half years I've been here, I've found that's not incredibly common.

I'm a regular poster on a perfume and fragrance forum, and even THERE there are relatively regular freak-outs. I mean, it's perfume. Come on. :lol:

Seriously, this forum is AMAZING. I can't think of one regular poster who is obnoxious, inflammatory, or out-and-out disrespectful. Sure, we pick up a moonbat or wingnut every once in a blue moon, but in the five-and-a-half years I've been here, I've found that's not incredibly common.

I'm a regular poster on a perfume and fragrance forum, and even THERE there are relatively regular freak-outs. I mean, it's perfume. Come on. :lol:

Especially when the subject matter at hand is taken into consideration, I can't think of another forum where the congeniality is any better.

I think the affair angle is closest to the mark....

Perman could have decided to break up with this woman, which could have resulted in her shooting him.

I've actually never really thought it was a jealous husband. I think the truth would have come out by now if 2 people knew about it. I think it was a pissed-off woman, and someone who he knew he was going to see that day. That's why he didn't want to go on his errands that day.

I think the affair angle is closest to the mark....

Perman could have decided to break up with this woman, which could have resulted in her shooting him.

I've actually never really thought it was a jealous husband. I think the truth would have come out by now if 2 people knew about it. I think it was a pissed-off woman, and someone who he knew he was going to see that day. That's why he didn't want to go on his errands that day.

The only problem with this theory is that Perman seemed like a fairly large man. I don't see how a woman would have been able to move his body to his van and to the road without help. I think whoever killed Permon, found him with his lover and in a rage beat and killed him. The lover then helped cover up the crime, IMO.

As a member of the family, I really appreciate that people are still talking about and are concerned about this.

His widow passed away last year. She was such a sweetheart.

As a member of the family, I really appreciate that people are still talking about and are concerned about this.

Are there any new leads in the case, and do you have a personal theory on what happened to Permon?

I just watched this segment today. Something stood out for me that never caught my attention before. When Perman's wife was being interviewed, she said that she believed the "crime of passion" angle was ruled out because that type of crime is believed to be swift, but Perman was beat on badly and the murder was dragged out. I agree with her about the method. However, if someone asked me if my husband was murdered out of a crime of passion, my response would be "no, he doesn't cheat on me, he doesn't have someone on the side". I thought it strange that she didn't really address that. Maybe it was just the interview and the way I saw it, but like I said, I wouldn't even be considering the crime of passion angle because to me there is no way my husband would be cheating, so it wouldn't be an option. Instead, Perm's wife said she thought it couldn't be that angle because he beating/killing was drawn out over time, rather than proclaiming an affair was not possible.
Thoughts?

I just watched this segment today. Something stood out for me that never caught my attention before. When Perman's wife was being interviewed, she said that she believed the "crime of passion" angle was ruled out because that type of crime is believed to be swift, but Perman was beat on badly and the murder was dragged out. I agree with her about the method. However, if someone asked me if my husband was murdered out of a crime of passion, my response would be "no, he doesn't cheat on me, he doesn't have someone on the side". I thought it strange that she didn't really address that. Maybe it was just the interview and the way I saw it, but like I said, I wouldn't even be considering the crime of passion angle because to me there is no way my husband would be cheating, so it wouldn't be an option. Instead, Perm's wife said she thought it couldn't be that angle because he beating/killing was drawn out over time, rather than proclaiming an affair was not possible.
Thoughts?

I always thought the beating WAS indicative of the crime of passion for two reasons...

1. Perman most likely fought/struggled with his assailant in an effort to defend himself.
2. If the guy was that pissed because he found Perman in bed with his wife or girlfriend, he could have expressed his anger and rage through a physical beating.

It's probably impossible, but it would be interesting to know more detail about the beating. If it was haphazard and inconsistent (as I suspect) it would be indicative of a frenzied attack likely out of rage. If it was systematic and followed an identifiable pattern, then I might have an easier time believing someone was trying to coax information out of him. I think the latter is pretty unlikely though.

I'm thinking now, that it was an affair...he said to his wife "I don't want to go to work" I now feel that was his way of over-assuring her, "man, I just want to stay with you and not work" and he had an affair and was caught or set up.

dude ur conspeer-a-see theories about jbk and Lincoln and iluminatee are so fake! duhh

All signs point to a crime of passion, IMO. The attack and murder seemed frenzied, IIRC a belt buckle was missing along with Permon's wallet. He was found naked on the side of the road. He also had bought flowers for someone earlier that day. I think someone caught Permon in bed with their wife or girlfriend and flew into a rage and killed him.

I think the truth would have come out by now if 2 people knew about it.

Yeah, really. I find the woman involved w/ the murder to be an incredibly selfish person to not have come forward by now. Any not-of-age children she was trying to protect would be long out of the nest by now (if they weren't already), and a threat of violence against her family as a means to keep her quiet's reaching a bit imo. It takes a hefty lack of conscience to pretend for almost two generations that what happened didn't happen. Unless she didn't have any children or friends, and was additionally murdered by her husband, I have to fault the woman for this case not having been solved by now

What's interesting to me about this case, is if you believe the crime of passion scenario, which I do, then you have to believe Perman had been communicating with her somehow. I wonder if the police ever cross referenced the Gilbert home phone records and matched each and every call up to specific people.

I also wonder if any names on that phone bill would have led to this store clerk or any other woman whose name, his wife wouldn't recognize. Its obvious Perman was a huge flirt. He flirted with the check out lady about going to lunch, he clearly at least flirted with the flower person who wasn't in yet. I think all of the common sense evidence points to him being found in bed with someone wife/girlfriend and was murdered shortly thereafter due to this.

What's interesting to me about this case, is if you believe the crime of passion scenario, which I do, then you have to believe Perman had been communicating with her somehow. I wonder if the police ever cross referenced the Gilbert home phone records and matched each and every call up to specific people.

I also wonder if any names on that phone bill would have led to this store clerk or any other woman whose name, his wife wouldn't recognize. Its obvious Perman was a huge flirt. He flirted with the check out lady about going to lunch, he clearly at least flirted with the flower person who wasn't in yet. I think all of the common sense evidence points to him being found in bed with someone wife/girlfriend and was murdered shortly thereafter due to this.
This is a good theory. He was found in a rural area and maysville ky/Ohio area gets very desolate. I'd imagine it was a crime of passion where only one or two people may know what happened.

Just watched this case for the first time.

UM did their typical hypothesizing about scenarios that, while plausible, are highly improbable. They presented three theories as described below:

1) Gilbert was a private pilot and it is theorized he was approached by drug dealers to transport drugs. Indeed, his wife says he told her about being approached on several occasions but flatly denied that he was involved or ever would be involved. If Gilbert were accosted by people to fly drugs and refused, I seriously doubt they would kill him (what would be the motive?).

2) The second scenario is that somehow organized crime got to him in retaliation to his brother who was testifying in an organized crime case. The segment didn't elaborate much on this scenario and we have no idea what his brother was testifying about or who it involved. Nonetheless, I am skeptical that an organized crime syndicate would kill Perman over something his younger brother was involved in. If anything they would kill the brother, not Perman. I see no motive there.

3) The third scenario, and the most likely one, is an extramarital affair gone wrong. Perman was an appliance repairman and made house calls. The segment mentioned that his last known whereabouts the day he disappeared was at a flower shop inside a grocery store. The clerk said he asked for another woman who worked there because she knew what flowers he wanted to buy. This implies that Perman was regularly buying flowers for someone. Also, the clerk at the counter mentioned that Perman asked her to have lunch with him (though in a sort of playful kind of way). This implies to me that Perman was a big flirt with the local ladies.

My scenario: Perman was caught in the "act" with another man's wife or girlfriend and was killed on the spot. This would explain why he was nude. The coroner said that the bullet wounds in his chest area were fired when Perman was shirtless. The perpetrator then moved his nude (or half nude) body and dumped it on the side of a road. This fits in with a "crime of passion." The family was in denial that he could have been killed because of a possible affair.

Just watched this case for the first time.

UM did their typical hypothesizing about scenarios that, while plausible, are highly improbable. They presented three theories as described below:

1) Gilbert was a private pilot and it is theorized he was approached by drug dealers to transport drugs. Indeed, his wife says he told her about being approached on several occasions but flatly denied that he was involved or ever would be involved. If Gilbert were accosted by people to fly drugs and refused, I seriously doubt they would kill him (what would be the motive?).

I distinctly remember the line "If you guys don't quit buggin' me, I'm gonna contact the authorities." in the segment. The possible motive is that they worried Perman was going to inform the authorities.

2) The second scenario is that somehow organized crime got to him in retaliation to his brother who was testifying in an organized crime case. The segment didn't elaborate much on this scenario and we have no idea what his brother was testifying about or who it involved. Nonetheless, I am skeptical that an organized crime syndicate would kill Perman over something his younger brother was involved in. If anything they would kill the brother, not Perman. I see no motive there.

But killing family members is quite common on UM. Think the Markowitzes and the Gary Grants, for example. It's not that far-fetched.

3) The third scenario, and the most likely one, is an extramarital affair gone wrong. Perman was an appliance repairman and made house calls. The segment mentioned that his last known whereabouts the day he disappeared was at a flower shop inside a grocery store. The clerk said he asked for another woman who worked there because she knew what flowers he wanted to buy. This implies that Perman was regularly buying flowers for someone. Also, the clerk at the counter mentioned that Perman asked her to have lunch with him (though in a sort of playful kind of way). This implies to me that Perman was a big flirt with the local ladies.

My scenario: Perman was caught in the "act" with another man's wife or girlfriend and was killed on the spot. This would explain why he was nude. The coroner said that the bullet wounds in his chest area were fired when Perman was shirtless. The perpetrator then moved his nude (or half nude) body and dumped it on the side of a road. This fits in with a "crime of passion." The family was in denial that he could have been killed because of a possible affair.

I think that's the most popular theory on the boards, and I won't argue too much with that one. But Perman was a hefty man by the looks of it, and probably too much for one man to move.

I think that's the most popular theory on the boards, and I won't argue too much with that one. But Perman was a hefty man by the looks of it, and probably too much for one man to move.

Not only that, but it sounds as though his van was abandoned in the middle of nowhere. Assuming the killer drove it, how would they have departed the scene if not for someone else either following them, or picking them up in another vehicle?

Not only that, but it sounds as though his van was abandoned in the middle of nowhere. Assuming the killer drove it, how would they have departed the scene if not for someone else either following them, or picking them up in another vehicle?

Yes, and to play devil's advocate with my own theory: Who was the mistress? And if Perman was killed because of her, why didn't she come forward? If Perman was killed while naked, this implies he was caught in the "act" or sometime soon after. This would imply that the woman would be there at the scene. If so, she would have witnessed it (or at least known what happened). Again, where is she? Why has she been silent? This makes me wonder if there were any missing women in the area at about the same time. Did the killer dispense of both the wife and the "lover?"

Or perhaps the angry husband had already known of the affair and just ambushed Perman somewhere along his route. At some point during a struggle his shirt was removed and he was shot. This probably makes more sense actually because it explains why no mistress has come forward as a witness.

I don't discount the drug running theory completely, I just find it more unlikely. It is possible, I suppose, that Perman ran a few drug flights then had second thoughts and decided to stop. It's possible he was killed because of that.

As for the mob theory, I find it a bit far-fetched, though not totally crazy or outside the realm of possibility. My main problem with it is that the brother had already testified. Typically these types of people want to stop witnesses from testifying in the first place. This might include threats to the witness' family or an actually killing of a family member. However, I find it unlikely they would chose a brother.

Or perhaps the angry husband had already known of the affair and just ambushed Perman somewhere along his route. At some point during a struggle his shirt was removed and he was shot. This probably makes more sense actually because it explains why no mistress has come forward as a witness.

The segment stated that Perman had completed all of his service calls for that day. His final moments involve him doing leisure things/eating a meal.

The segment stated that Perman had completed all of his service calls for that day. His final moments involve him doing leisure things/eating a meal.

Yeah, I just meant that the killer perhaps followed him and then ambushed him somewhere along his travels that day (whether scheduled or not).

Yes, and to play devil's advocate with my own theory: Who was the mistress? And if Perman was killed because of her, why didn't she come forward? If Perman was killed while naked, this implies he was caught in the "act" or sometime soon after. This would imply that the woman would be there at the scene. If so, she would have witnessed it (or at least known what happened). Again, where is she? Why has she been silent? This makes me wonder if there were any missing women in the area at about the same time. Did the killer dispense of both the wife and the "lover?"

My feeling is that the mistress (if she existed) helped cover up the crime and never came forward out of fear of being prosecuted herself and/or out of feelings of loyalty toward her SO.

surely the cops in this town have been able to determine who big Parm's "side pieces" were and questioned them extensively?

This is a case that is perplexing as it is sad. Its been unsolved now for almost 35 years. A hardworking family man who is found naked and shot and dumped along side of the road. His van found 22 miles away. He had a brother with mob ties and other people who had been asking him to fly his plane for supposed drug runs. This is a case that needs some in depth looking into. Not the likes of Kurt Sova. No offense to the Sova family of course.

This case was pretty much dissected years ago on the forums. While any of the three scenarios presented in the segment are possible, the only one that makes any sense is the one that is categorically denied as a probability throughout the segment and that is that Gilbert was walked in on having an affair. Out of all three scenarios it's the one that makes the most allowances for the condition his body was found in and his missing articles of clothing.

If Gilbert was walked in on by a jealous husband/boyfriend, he may have been encountered in a state of undress which is why he was assaulted/shot while bare chested which is why no cloth fibers were found by the authorities. His body was likely moved to the ditch by this party, possibly with help from his significant other as Gilbert was large man and it would've taken at least two individuals to transport his body. As for the missing clothing? If Gilbert was walked in on, his clothing would've not been on his person and therefore would've just been discarded evidence in the wake of the crime.

Yes I tend to agree Dante. He was naked when attacked would make more sense as to how he was found. If true I wonder if it was the lady at the flower shop he specifically asked for. If it did happen that way, its surprising it hasn't been solved. Usually crimes of passion involving a death are hard to keep under wraps.

Yes I tend to agree Dante. He was naked when attacked would make more sense as to how he was found. If true I wonder if it was the lady at the flower shop he specifically asked for. If it did happen that way, its surprising it hasn't been solved. Usually crimes of passion involving a death are hard to keep under wraps.

I was just going to talk about that angle as well. If it was a crime of passion, you have the killer, and then you have the other party. So there are at least 2 people involved. Both have kept quiet all this time. To limit it to 2 people, the killer and the person getting it on with Perman would have had to participate in the cover up. Moving the van and getting rid of evidence. Thats a lot to ask of someone who you just found in bed with someone else. Being that you killed Perman right there in front of them

This case was pretty much dissected years ago on the forums. While any of the three scenarios presented in the segment are possible, the only one that makes any sense is the one that is categorically denied as a probability throughout the segment and that is that Gilbert was walked in on having an affair. Out of all three scenarios it's the one that makes the most allowances for the condition his body was found in and his missing articles of clothing.

If Gilbert was walked in on by a jealous husband/boyfriend, he may have been encounted in a state of undress which is why he was assaulted/shot while bare chested which is why no cloth fibers were found by the authorities. His body was likely moved to the ditch by this party, possibly with help from his significant other as Gilbert was large man and it would've taken at least two individuals to transport his body. As for the missing clothing? If Gilbert was walked in on, his clothing would've not been on his person and therefore would've just been discarded evidence in the wake of the crime.

I think this is exactly what happened. His wife did not want to believe it was a possibility during the segment, but it was the only possibility that made any sense.

From the original UM episode on this case it was never discussed specificly what kind of trouble Permans brother was in with the mob. They didnt discuss what mafia family either. Was it hillbilly organized crime? The Dixie Mafia? La Cosa Nostra? They were very vague. Has there ever been any info posted about Permans brother and specific organized crime details?

Did anyone else get the feeling that his wife knew he was having an affair/s?

It's odd that she waited to go look for him, I mean all she had to do was go drive around. And another odd bit was the fact that she said "I find him attractive, I'm sure other women do as well" but denied that it could've been an affair and was drug related. I don't think she wanted to admit it on television, but you can tell that she knew he was having an affair.

I've long been a proponent of the affair theory in this case, but listening to Robin's podcast today I thought of something I hadn't before that has made me think the organized crime theory isn't as far fetched as I first thought:

Where does a traveling appliance repair man get the money to own his own airplane?

I've long been a proponent of the affair theory in this case, but listening to Robin's podcast today I thought of something I hadn't before that has made me think the organized crime theory isn't as far fetched as I first thought:

Where does a traveling appliance repair man get the money to own his own airplane?

I actually found an old article at Newspapers.com which stated Permon was a co-owner of the airplane. So I assume the extra income he made by doing his own independent service calls on the weekend might have given him enough money to split the costs of owning the plane.

Here's a photo of an interesting article from a few months after the murder which is the source of some of the extra tidbits I mentioned on the podcast. Of course, the revelation which took me by surprise was that the coroner determined that Permon was dead no more than 10 hours before his body was found, placing his death sometime on the morning of Sunday, May 23. Since Permon was last seen shortly after 1:00 PM on Saturday, May 22, that's a lot of time where he was apparently alive and his whereabouts are unaccounted for.

http://i65.tinypic.com/1zzp2kp.jpg

Where does a traveling appliance repair man get the money to own his own airplane?

Airplanes in the 70s and 80s weren't actually that expensive. Companies like Cessna pumped out a lot of planes hoping to make them affordable for the "average person." Once pilot training is paid for, the actual planes weren't ridiculously expensive. Perm's segment showed him flying a Cessna 172, IIRC. The fuel was cheap so the biggest cost would be the occasional maintenance and insurance.

On a side note, airplanes are one of the few things that have appreciated in value. A plane like Perm's would cost way more today, even in 1980's money. Liability insurance for planes has gone way up, too. Flying used to be much more affordable but not so much anymore.

As for Perm, I don't see why they would want him to fly drugs, anyway. I think that is a red herring. Flying drugs is mostly used over international borders (for smuggling) or to drop into remote areas where cars can't go. An average private pilot like Perm with a very basic airplane wouldn't do much for most drug dealers in the middle of Ohio. He could maybe fly to Canada but it isn't that close and it would still attract attention going over the border. I definitely think the affair scenario is more likely.

Don't buy this having anything to do with his brother-what would the point be of killing an innocent man months after his brother had already testified?

The drug running theory is more interesting-it is highly unlikely that turning the offer down would result in any violence-after all these people like to keep under the radar, but what if he had been involved & either messed up or ripped them off? That would certainly be cause enough for him to be murdered & possibly beaten severely beforehand.

Most likely scenario is an affair, his job gave him access to lone women & a jealous husband/partner may have caught him & killed him. Cannot see a random homicide being so frenzied or the attacker stripping him naked.

Permon was done his side jobs after noon on the day he disappeared. He went to the store around 1:00, and then Permon went to the florist and asked if a specific employee was working. He was told that employee wouldn't be in until 4 p.m. If this was the woman he was having an affair with, it fits everything known in the case. Permon told his wife that he'd be back by 3 in the afternoon. If Permon got to the flower shop a little after 1, and if the woman working there was the one he was having an affair with, he probably figured he could head over to her house (since she wasn't scheduled to work until 4) for a quick rendezvous and still make it back home by 3. I wonder if that woman actually showed up for work that day.

Did anyone else get the feeling that his wife knew he was having an affair/s?

It's odd that she waited to go look for him, I mean all she had to do was go drive around. And another odd bit was the fact that she said "I find him attractive, I'm sure other women do as well" but denied that it could've been an affair and was drug related. I don't think she wanted to admit it on television, but you can tell that she knew he was having an affair.

I did sort of get that vibe as well, especially when she quickly dismissed the so-called "crime of passion" theory. That's all it is, however: just a feeling.

Absolutely crime of passion for me.

The grocery store witnesses for me hold The most weight. They seemed to be the most unbiased and credible in the segment. He always flirted with the cashier. He was trying to buy flowers for someone. And then he was found naked. Most likely “went to work that day” And was caught in the act with someone. I know that area a little bit. It is very rural! the crime was covered well and not able to be traced if he was in turn being secretive about it. Hopefully the case is very solvable as it would only take one person to come forward. This is one where at least 2 people know what happened?

Perm didn't come home at 3 p.m. that day, and his wife didn't call someone to ask about his whereabouts until 3 in the morning. She knew that Perm was out there spreading the love.

Has anyone ever realized how busy Permon was during a typical week?

Sure, we know that he did the repair calls M-F and then he "free-lanced" on Saturdays as well.

Now what else can we glean from the UM?

-He liked to fly (a hobby) and that took away some of his free time
-He was a member of a Masonic lodge (again they have weekly meetings and require members to be active in some sort of Christian church; so it's likely that he spent part of his Sundays at church)

So it's likely that Permon was pretty busy and away from his family quite a bit. There's one more clue about Permon in the parting shot (real picture) of Permon from UM. He's wearing a hat with the logo of a railroad company, Louisville and Nashville.

It's been my experience that people that wear railroad themed caps either work for the railroad or consider themselves a train buff. People that like trains can spend a lot of time making models/miniatures or go out to the train tracks and watch or take pictures. I don't know if Permon was involved in the train hobby, but it could have been another reason Permon was away from home and his family.

I just get the strong impression that this guy was never home. It seems that he had a lot of commitments that kept him away from his family and it seems that it was mostly by his choice~ extra work, lodges and possibly hobbies.

-He was a member of a Masonic lodge (again they have weekly meetings and require members to be active in some sort of Christian church; so it's likely that he spent part of his Sundays at church)

You're not required to be active in a church, and the meetings are not weekly (at least not in most rural areas). You need to have a belief in a higher power, but that does not mean that you have to belong to or even actually attend any kind of church, mosque, synagogue, etc.

Our meetings for my Lodge are biweekly (at most frequent), and we actually "go dark" in the summer (meaning we don't have meetings) because our Lodge building is unbearably hot in the summer and it would take way too much money to try to cool it. So we're only actually actively meeting from sometime in September until May, typically.

In addition, just because he's a Mason doesn't mean he was an active Mason. You're not "required" to be at every meeting. It's "within the length of your cable tow," which basically means "attend meetings when you're able to." I've been absent from meetings at my Lodge for probably two and a half or three years, now, due to some serious issues with my mental health, but I'm still a Mason.

Just stating my POV on that part. I don't necessarily disagree with your theory, as there absolutely are other Masons in my Lodge that are super active with Lodge, their church of choice, various charities, their job, etc. But some of us are much less involved for whatever reason(s). :wave:

Has anyone ever realized how busy Permon was during a typical week?

I would imagine that he didn't spend every weekend doing side jobs, which probably freed up his time to fly his plane. What I find odd is that the UM segment says that Permon had 3 service calls "within miles" of his house. But they really weren't. One was about 30 miles away from his house. If you look at this (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Mt+Orab,+OH/10877+OH-774,+Hamersville,+OH+45130/Georgetown,+OH/Aberdeen,+OH/Maysville,+KY/Ebenezer+Road,+Manchester,+OH/Swope+Road,+Bethel,+OH/@38.8656441,-84.0069613,10.5z/data=!4m49!4m48!1m5!1m1!1s0x884118779d8be533:0x71aa01df9cf08e0!2m2!1d-83.919652!2d39.0275659!1m10!1m1!1s0x8841168ff94fc401:0xd8057fff3cbd1e6e!2m2!1d-83.984101!2d38.9290232!3m4!1m2!1d-83.9191618!2d38.9902222!3s0x88413d4dd799ef2f:0x8234d716714fed74!1m5!1m1!1s0x88413dfa4fef49ff:0xfba764cf05a5170f!2m2!1d-83.9040944!2d38.8645138!1m5!1m1!1s0x8841455a5d926b2b:0xe09dc712cb2baa8d!2m2!1d-83.7610323!2d38.6556296!1m5!1m1!1s0x88415ab520b4a3cf:0x71197391775c90ba!2m2!1d-83.744365!2d38.6411854!1m5!1m1!1s0x884149500513c0a7:0xb3e8f272b7fdf5b3!2m2!1d-83.6899019!2d38.737245!1m5!1m1!1s0x884112420abc6259:0xeb00a7cec200731b!2m2!1d-84.0799641!2d38.8939312!3e0) map, you'll see that Permon started from his house and went north to Mt. Orab, then south to Georgetown, and then his last call was further south to Aberdeen. From there he went to Maysville to the market and this was the last confirmed sighting of him being alive. What's interesting is that his van was found abandoned roughly 10 miles from where he was last seen alive (Ebenezer Road on the map), but his body was dumped closer to his home (Swope Road on the map). Seems like his killer/s was trying to get rid of evidence and move things away from the Maysville area.

Has anyone suggested that maybe his wife had a lover who might have killed him?

There doesn't seem to be a lot of forensic evidence to indicate who was involved and it's very strange that no one has been caught talking about the killing.

Has anyone suggested that maybe his wife had a lover who might have killed him?

I suppose that's possible, but I highly doubt his wife would go on TV the way she did if she was in on it or if she had a lover who did it. I think the circumstantial evidence shows if anyone was cheating, it was Perm. The fact that he was found naked makes me think some pissed off husband or boyfriend killed him and wanted to humiliate him on purpose. I can't see his wife's mythical lover doing that.

I suppose that's possible, but I highly doubt his wife would go on TV the way she did if she was in on it or if she had a lover who did it. I think the circumstantial evidence shows if anyone was cheating, it was Perm. The fact that he was found naked makes me think some pissed off husband or boyfriend killed him and wanted to humiliate him on purpose. I can't see his wife's mythical lover doing that.

I've long subscribed to the affair theory but recently have started wondering if perhaps his wife knew about it and hatched a plot to off him.

And as far as it being improbable that his wife would go on TV if she was involved.........well, Mark Nichols and Tim McClure were front and center in their own segments......

Permon was done his side jobs after noon on the day he disappeared. He went to the store around 1:00, and then Permon went to the florist and asked if a specific employee was working. He was told that employee wouldn't be in until 4 p.m. If this was the woman he was having an affair with, it fits everything known in the case. Permon told his wife that he'd be back by 3 in the afternoon. If Permon got to the flower shop a little after 1, and if the woman working there was the one he was having an affair with, he probably figured he could head over to her house (since she wasn't scheduled to work until 4) for a quick rendezvous and still make it back home by 3. I wonder if that woman actually showed up for work that day.

This part always stuck out like a blinking red light to me over the years. UM didnt say anything about it but I wonder if the police looked into that lady at the flowershop? Anyone can order you flowers, but he specifically wanted to speak with her and then later that day he ends up dead....?

This part always stuck out like a blinking red light to me over the years. UM didnt say anything about it but I wonder if the police looked into that lady at the flowershop? Anyone can order you flowers, but he specifically wanted to speak with her and then later that day he ends up dead....?

It also fits with the fact that his body was found within 7 miles of where he lived, whereas his van was found roughly an hour away. He was found completely naked, and an absence of fibers found in his bullet wounds suggested that he did not have a shirt on when he was shot. Everything about this case points to Permon being killed during a tryst.

I suppose the police probably did check into the woman at the flower shop and ultimately ruled her out. The grocery store clerk was interviewed in the segment and said that Permon always asked her out to lunch when she waited on him. He probably did the same thing with the flower shop employee.

ETA: Awhile back, Meg had shared a since deleted Topix discussion about this case from people local to the area. "Sue Arthur" was the name given by one of the posters as the flower shop employee, and claimed that she and Permon were dating. I did some deep digging trying to find anything about this woman, and the only thing I could find was an obituary for her brother (https://www.dignitymemorial.com/obituaries/maysville-ky/thomas-chandler-4780796) who died in 2011, and it says that she preceded him in death.

That, plus he went out of state to get the flowers. Plus, Perm had the memorable line "She knows what I want", so that would indicate that he was a regular at the flower shop. I wonder if they asked Perm's wife if she ever got flowers from him, if not, I think we have the solution right there. Perm going out of the state regularly to get flowers and asking for a specific employee, sounds like an affair to me.

Sounds like he lived near the OH/KY border. I went to school up in SSM, MI and used to cross the International Bridge into SSM, ON (The Soo) to do a lot of stuff I wouldn't do in MI because Soo, ON is much larger.

I wouldn't call it an affair so much if he worked by that area. I know people who buy beer in OH because Yuengling isn't sold in MI.

You know I think we need to settle this issue right here...to the women of this forum - does Perman Gilbert meet the criteria of what you would describe as a "dream man"? :crazy:

He's got nice eyes, but he's not what I would call, "man meat".

I think the affair angle is closest to the mark....

Perman could have decided to break up with this woman, which could have resulted in her shooting him.

I've actually never really thought it was a jealous husband. I think the truth would have come out by now if 2 people knew about it. I think it was a pissed-off woman, and someone who he knew he was going to see that day. That's why he didn't want to go on his errands that day.

If he was going to break up with someone, that would explain why he commented to his wife that he didn't want to work that day. Maybe he figured that he/she would lose their **** when he did it.

If he was going to break up with someone, that would explain why he commented to his wife that he didn't want to work that day. Maybe he figured that he/she would lose their **** when he did it.

Because of Permon's size and the fact that his body was obviously moved, it seems unlikely to me that a single woman did this alone; even a single man is kind of difficult to imagine.

Because of Permon's size and the fact that his body was obviously moved, it seems unlikely to me that a single woman did this alone; even a single man is kind of difficult to imagine.

I'm inclined to agree with you, but anything is possible at this point. I just can't wait to hear Perman's case on Robin W's The Trail Went Cold. Totally hooked on that podcast now.

He's not bad-looking. I would have guessed him as older than 46, however. I'll bet he was definitely a handsome man back in his younger days.

I've always been struck by how nonplussed his wife was when they suggested to her that her husband might be cheating on her. She was just like "yeah, sure, of course other women thought he was handsome." Granted, we don't know exactly what the interviewer asked her, but I would think a wife would be upset if if someone insinuated that her husband was cheating on her.

Watched this one again yesterday, did a little bit of googling and ran across a reddit thread where someone mentioned the possibility of Perman getting set up/robbed by the gal he was seeing.

If Perman had someone he was seeing on the side, then unless she had done something like this before, the only thing I could think of that would make her snap and kill him is if she gave him 'the ultimatum' (telling him to leave his wife) and he refused.

A more likely theory is that he was set up, but by the husband/boyfriend of whoever he was messing around with (basically the same 'affair' angle everyone has posited thus far).

That guy found his wife/girlfriend was messing around with Perm and then forced her to set up a rendezvous with him on that deserted road. Perm agrees, he and the gal start getting frisky in the back of his van, then the husband/BF appears from nearby and knocks him around a bit before shooting him. Afterwards, he drives Perm's van away from the area, with the woman in question following in a separate vehicle. Then, he either uses the threat of violence to get her to keep her mouth shut, or he kills her himself and quickly makes tracks.

Going along with the affair angle, my guess is that the female participant was potentially intimidated into assisting with disposing of Perm's body and van. And was also kept from talking through fear and intimidation.

I don't think the florist is necessarily involved, she may have been someone Perm was going after as a future conquest, same as the cashier.

Caught in the act of an affair is what I think happened. the question for me is who knows what happened and will they ever come forward if it is not already too late. I think the other 2 theories mentioned on the segment were a stretch and perhaps Perman's family wanted to believe that he was not having an extra marital affair.

Caught in the act of an affair is what I think happened. the question for me is who knows what happened and will they ever come forward if it is not already too late. I think the other 2 theories mentioned on the segment were a stretch and perhaps Perman's family wanted to believe that he was not having an extra marital affair.

I agree. The affair theory makes the most sense by far compared to any other theories. Especially when you consider how many women Perm had contact with on a daily basis.

I guess it's an understandable defense mechanism for the family to only want to believe the theory that presents him in the most positive light (knew too much info about drugs and drug related people) but if you take all biases away, the affair theory easily holds the most water.

Probably a nooner…which would mean Perm didn’t have to eat that bologna sandwich by himself.

He was probably having it off with someone in the van which is why he left his watch where he did on the gearshift lever.

There sure were a lot of Conway Twitty fetishists in that part of Ohio.

I agree. The affair theory makes the most sense by far compared to any other theories. Especially when you consider how many women Perm had contact with on a daily basis.

I guess it's an understandable defense mechanism for the family to only want to believe the theory that presents him in the most positive light (knew too much info about drugs and drug related people) but if you take all biases away, the affair theory easily holds the most water.
true, and there's a quote from either RS or an officer in the segment, not verbatim, but something along the lines of Perm being found naked and that the bullet wounds occurred with his shirt off, but there is no mention of whether or not he was dressed below the waist. I think it is blatantly obvious that he was caught in the act by another man.

There sure were a lot of Conway Twitty fetishists in that part of Ohio.

that part of Ohio is the most southern yet geographically northern area of the USA

As such, I thought I might rehash a few points that have been brought up about this case in hopes of gaining further clarity as to the events that possibly lead up to Permon Gilbert's death. Like the majority of you, I subscribe to the theory that Permon Gilbert's death was tied to a clandestine affair but the particulars surrounding his final hours do provide some insight as to a possible timeline of events:

- To begin with in examining this case, it's important to differentiate between the theory that was advanced independently around the area where Permon lived shortly after his death and the ones that have seemingly emanated from the Gilbert family themselves. If you watch the UM segment closely, you will notice that it is only Gilbert's relations that advance theories of drug trafficking and mafiosos being involved in his murder. In contrast, the theory that circulated independent of Gilbert's family was the one regarding the extramarital affair. This is telling as it could indicate bias on the part of the Gilbert family in the construction narratives regarding Gilbert's death that would not implicate him in an extramarital affair. While I don't necessarily subscribe to the theory of "where there's smoke, there's fire", the fact that rumors cropped up after Gilbert's murder regarding his alleged involvement in an affair does lead me to believe that that theory has more plausibility than the narratives constructed by the Gilbert family. Additionally it doesn't seem as if Permon Gilbert given the information presented in the UM segment would've ever presented as enough of a target for either drug dealers or organized crime to want to eliminate him.

- As it pertains to Permon's missing clothing/time of death/location and condition of his body: It's very plausible that Permon Gilbert was "walked in on" on the day he was murdered. I believe that given that there was a significant amount of time that passed between the time of his disappearance and his estimated time of death that there were two separate altercations that occurred between Permon Gilbert and his killer. The first was likely an impulsive assault that resulted from Gilbert's killer discovering the affair. The result of this assault is what left Gilbert with among other injuries, a broken nose and blackened eyes. It probably also resulted in some degree of loss of blood as Gilbert's clothing would've been stained with blood evidence as a result of this assault. After the initial confrontation, I believe some time was taken between Gilbert's killer and possibly another party to decide what they were going to do moving forward. I don't believe that Gilbert's killer was a criminal by nature and quite possibly just reacted on him after discovering the affair. At some point the decision was made to do away with Permon Gilbert and it was at this point that Gilbert's clothing was stripped away to conceal any evidence of the crime. He was then subsequently shot while nude which is why no clothing fibers were later found when evidence was examined. It goes without saying that the reason Gilbert's clothing was never located was that they were subsequently disposed of by his killer due to the fact that they likely contained evidence that could potentially implicate the person who murdered Gilbert.

- Gilbert's body was then transported back to an area that was more intimately connected to Permon Gilbert than whomever he was having an affair with. This was of course done to ensure that the authorities would never be able to trace Gilbert's movements to the location where he was conducting the affair and was subsequently killed. The fact that Gilbert's killer had an intimate knowledge as to the area where he hailed from is also telling as it demonstrates that there was some type of personal relationship between Gilbert and the individual(s) who killed him.

- There is however one possible twist in this case that could lead one away from the theory that Gilbert was "walked in on" by the boyfriend or husband of whomever he was conducting an affair with. One point that was unfortunately never expanded upon in the UM was Gilbert's wife's comment that on the day of her husband's murder, he was apprehensive about heading out on his service calls that afternoon. Additionally, there was an article published on this case some years ago, where one of Gilbert's customers was interviewed and she also relayed that in the days prior to his murder, Gilbert's demeanor had changed as he appeared anxious and ill at ease. It is therefore possible that Gilbert wasn't "walked in on" at all on the day of his murder and instead was knowingly heading into some type of confrontation that resulted in his death. This confrontation while still related to a clandestine affair, may have emanated from Gilbert trying to end the affair on the day he was murdered or in contrast he was going to bring the affair out into the open on that date. Either way things went horribly wrong.

- Finally the reason why the hair samples and fingerprints have never been traced back to a suspect in this case is likely due to the fact that the person or persons who murdered Gilbert don't have records. This would not only lead a reasonable person to bend towards the theory involving an extramarital affair instead of the ones surrounding drug trafficking or organized crime but would suggest that Gilbert's killer is not a career criminal and has likely never run afoul of the law aside from this incident. Quite probably, there are only a handful of people who know the identity of Gilbert's killer given the intimacy of the situation involved. These individuals have never come forward because it's likely their belief that the murder of Permon Gilbert was a justifiable killing.

Permon Gilbert

www.facebook.com/groups/631752367223887/posts/1635862543479526/

I've always been struck by how nonplussed his wife was when they suggested to her that her husband might be cheating on her. She was just like "yeah, sure, of course other women thought he was handsome." Granted, we don't know exactly what the interviewer asked her, but I would think a wife would be upset if if someone insinuated that her husband was cheating on her.

Same. In recent years I've kind of wondered, if Gilbert was indeed in the habit of philandering, if Joann was aware and had more or less accepted it on some level at that point.

I listened to the Trail Went Cold podcast episode on this case again this past week and Robin mentioned that an early news article mentioned that when the dispatcher in Bethel (where the van was found) called the police to Swope Rd to check out the vehicle, he or she put out that four men were possibly in this van. Where this information came from I'm unsure (presumably from the person who reported the vehicle, who remains by all accounts unidentified), but no one was found with the van by the time the police arrived.

This information, if at all true, could complicate all three of the main theories on this case:

1. The organized crime angle - Presumably, if these four men were people looking to retaliate against Perm's brother Vernon for testifying in court, how did they know where Perm was supposed to be throughout the day on that Saturday? He did show up for his three service calls in Mt. Orab, Georgetown, and Aberdeen, and was then seen by witnesses across the border in Maysville. That's quite a bit of ground and time to cover when one could simply wait for a date in which Perm's schedule was more predictable, such as a weekday.

2. The drug theory - It seems not to make much sense to murder someone over declining to transport drugs. That would only potentially draw more attention to the operation, and furthermore if these traffickers were apparently bold enough to approach someone like Permon Gilbert to fly shipments for them, it only stands to reason they could just as easily ask the various pilots coming and going from the nearest small airport--perhaps the "certain airport" Joann mentioned in her interview, even. Furthermore, while I have no reason at all to think the story isn't true, we really only have Joann's word at this point that this interaction or interactions between Perm and the traffickers even happened.

3. The "crime of passion" theory - Presumably, this angle has a jealous partner catching Perm and his paramour in the act, so to speak. Certainly, because Perm was a fairly big guy, it would probably be difficult for one person to move his body. Involving at least one other person would make this much easier, but I can't see someone asking three or four of his friends to help out with such a task--or even asking them to ditch the van, especially so close to the decedent's own hometown. Why not drive it out to someplace like Cinncinnati, or even better, well over the state line into Kentucky?

The "four men in the van" piece may very well be an error of some kind, but if not, it certainly makes the whole story far more bizarre than it already is.

that part of Ohio is the most southern yet geographically northern area of the USA

SUPER- LOL !

Same. In recent years I've kind of wondered, if Gilbert was indeed in the habit of philandering, if Joann was aware and had more or less accepted it on some level at that point.

I listened to the Trail Went Cold podcast episode on this case again this past week and Robin mentioned that an early news article mentioned that when the dispatcher in Bethel (where the van was found) called the police to Swope Rd to check out the vehicle, he or she put out that four men were possibly in this van. Where this information came from I'm unsure (presumably from the person who reported the vehicle, who remains by all accounts unidentified), but no one was found with the van by the time the police arrived.

This information, if at all true, could complicate all three of the main theories on this case:

1. The organized crime angle - Presumably, if these four men were people looking to retaliate against Perm's brother Vernon for testifying in court, how did they know where Perm was supposed to be throughout the day on that Saturday? He did show up for his three service calls in Mt. Orab, Georgetown, and Aberdeen, and was then seen by witnesses across the border in Maysville. That's quite a bit of ground and time to cover when one could simply wait for a date in which Perm's schedule was more predictable, such as a weekday.

2. The drug theory - It seems not to make much sense to murder someone over declining to transport drugs. That would only potentially draw more attention to the operation, and furthermore if these traffickers were apparently bold enough to approach someone like Permon Gilbert to fly shipments for them, it only stands to reason they could just as easily ask the various pilots coming and going from the nearest small airport--perhaps the "certain airport" Joann mentioned in her interview, even. Furthermore, while I have no reason at all to think the story isn't true, we really only have Joann's word at this point that this interaction or interactions between Perm and the traffickers even happened.

3. The "crime of passion" theory - Presumably, this angle has a jealous partner catching Perm and his paramour in the act, so to speak. Certainly, because Perm was a fairly big guy, it would probably be difficult for one person to move his body. Involving at least one other person would make this much easier, but I can't see someone asking three or four of his friends to help out with such a task--or even asking them to ditch the van, especially so close to the decedent's own hometown. Why not drive it out to someplace like Cinncinnati, or even better, well over the state line into Kentucky?

The "four men in the van" piece may very well be an error of some kind, but if not, it certainly makes the whole story far more bizarre than it already is.

interesting, I never heard of the 4 men. I always thought it could be a husband and a wife that moved his body. If true (the four men) I would think family members as opposed to friends and maybe it was premeditated murder. rural area and the people involved were never going to come forward or turn on one another. I think that Perm's death was the result of him having an affair or multiple affairs. one could surmise that he got caught in the act in one affair, or maybe he was having multiple affairs over time and someone or some people threatened him which could explain his apprehension to work that day.

I think the fact that PG was found totally naked was intentional. I have no idea if he was hunted down by a couple or group of men, but I think the affair angle makes the most sense. I think they (assuming multiple people) wanted Mr. Fix it Casanova to permanently end his romantic rendezvous.

Why not drive it out to someplace like Cinncinnati, or even better, well over the state line into Kentucky?


Why turn a local crime into a federal crime? That would also take an amount of planning, which wouldn't happen with a crime of passion situation.

A couple of things:

-You don't kill the brother of the guy who is testifying against your organized crime syndicate as a way to "send a message". You kill the guy testifying against you. The brother aspect of this case has always been a ridiculous theory, IMO.

-Permon's daughter posts incessantly on the UM website's writeup of this case. She seems convinced that a local family involved in dealing cocaine was involved in Permon's murder. This is the "first theory" discussed in the UM segment about Permon refusing to fly his plane to transport drugs.

-Permon was shot without his shirt on. He was found naked. There was evidence of some sort of struggle in his van. His watch was found hanging on the gearshift of his van. None of his clothes were ever recovered.

-The last confirmed sighting of Permon was at the flower shop shortly after 1:00 p.m. that day. Remember, he told his wife that he planned on returning home at around 3:00 p.m. that afternoon. At the flower shop, he asked for a specific employee and was told she didn't start work until 4:00 p.m. He told the employee working that the specific employee "knew what he wanted" with regards to flowers.

-Permon's wife didn't report him missing to the police until after 3:00 a.m. the next morning.

IMO, none of the above supports the theory that he was killed because he refused to transport drugs for some local cocaine dealers. The condition of the van and the watch being found on the gearshift makes me think Permon was in the middle of some bow-chicka-wow-wow with his mistress when they were interrupted by Permon's killer. He was beaten fairly severely in the van, or shortly after he was taken out via gunpoint by his killer. He may have been taken to where his body was found and killed there, or was killed at or near the van and his body moved. It's the only scenario, IMO, that makes sense with what we know.

On a side note, I think this (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9291952,-83.9840858,3a,82.9y,102.27h,79.07t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1smRc-whAv44-HES5PS-cicA!2e0!5s20141001T000000!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu) was the house that was used in the re-enactment.

-Permon's daughter posts incessantly on the UM website's writeup of this case. She seems convinced that a local family involved in dealing cocaine was involved in Permon's murder. This is the "first theory" discussed in the UM segment about Permon refusing to fly his plane to transport drugs.


I always found this segment a bit heartbreaking as it was so obvious that that family clearly was in denial about their father. It seems like even today they refuse to believe he was most likely killed over having an affair with a married woman.

I always found this segment a bit heartbreaking as it was so obvious that that family clearly was in denial about their father. It seems like even today they refuse to believe he was most likely killed over having an affair with a married woman.

Agreed. His wife was in denial. She wouldn't even entertain the thought of him doing that. I've always been curious what they thought of the segment and how multiple women said he would flirt with them.

There was evidence of some sort of struggle in his van.

He was beaten fairly severely in the van. He may have been taken to where his body was found and killed there, or was killed at or near the van and his body moved. It's the only scenario, IMO, that makes sense with what we know.


First time I have heard about him being beaten in the van -- was there evidence to that? Like blood?

Agreed. His wife was in denial. She wouldn't even entertain the thought of him doing that. I've always been curious what they thought of the segment and how multiple women said he would flirt with them.

There is a heck of a lot of difference between flirting and actively having an affair. Flirting is not cheating. I have no qualms about flirting, though with women I already know, yet I have never seriously considered having an affair with any of them or any other woman.

First time I have heard about him being beaten in the van -- was there evidence to that? Like blood?

IIRC it was mentioned on RobinW's "Trail Went Cold" podcast episode covering the case. It was said that he had two swollen eyes indicating that he was beaten before he was shot. The police also said that hairs and fibers were found in the van. My wording of "in the van" in my previous post was off a typo on my end. What I was trying to say was that he was beaten severely either in the van or after being removed from it at gunpoint. Because his watch was still on the gear shift.

I can't seem to find any info on his brother Vernon. I did come across an obituary for his sister, Betty Garrett and it states that she was preceded in death by her brothers, Perman and Donnie Gilbert. Perhaps Vernon's real name was Donnie and he just went by Vernon?

There is a heck of a lot of difference between flirting and actively having an affair. Flirting is not cheating. I have no qualms about flirting, though with women I already know, yet I have never seriously considered having an affair with any of them or any other woman.

Yes... but the real question is: does your wife?